0:00

Are you watching The Traders? No, but I've... Wait,

0:02

is that the game show? It's Alan coming

0:04

in the best suits ever in Scotland, and

0:06

everyone is lying to each other. It is

0:08

crazy. It's making me paranoid. They kill each

0:10

other, don't they? They get murdered, but they're

0:12

not actually murdered. They're just like banished. They

0:14

have to leave the Scottish castle. No, I'm gonna

0:17

go home and start it tonight. It makes me paranoid. It's

0:19

like, are you a traitor? Are you real? Are you a

0:21

traitor? What's... I mean, I think it's inflicting

0:23

a lot of psychological damage on

0:25

a lot of people. Thanks, Alan. Hi,

0:33

Julia Bensavali. Hi, Patrick Hines. Sam,

0:36

do us a favor. Do yourself a favor. Join

0:38

us over on the Patreon. We're doing all these

0:40

amazing things. We're doing a lot of stuff. We

0:42

just did our second drag bingo. We're doing it

0:44

again in March. We're doing it March 30th. Mark

0:46

your calendars. March 30th, 7 o'clock Eastern, with the

0:48

amazing Schwab. Schwab's the best. It's music and Schwab

0:50

performs, and then we have these amazing prize packages.

0:52

Yeah. Hundreds of people are coming. It's so fun.

0:54

But it's also... The Patreon is where you can

0:56

get over 450 full ad-free bonus episodes

0:59

to download and binge the second you sign up. Yeah. So

1:01

right now, we're sort of in between Italia Grace seasons.

1:03

We're doing the Lost Women of Highway 20. But before that,

1:05

what did we just do? Something major? Oh, Love has won.

1:07

I love this one. And we also did Love for Odd.

1:10

Yes, yes, yes. We're going to do Twin Flames. We're

1:12

doing Twin Flames. It is... I'm very excited.

1:14

I'm in the Twin Flames rabbit hole. It's

1:16

crazy. Also in the Facebook... Join the Facebook group because

1:18

I'm also doing watch parties now. So we're doing them

1:20

usually on Sunday nights. Sometimes Taylor Swift has a Super

1:22

Bowl and we have to switch it. Yeah. We have

1:25

a Swifty Bowl. But it's really fun. We did one

1:27

last night. There was like 400 people there. And it's

1:29

all in a chat, right? It's all in a chat. We

1:31

all go one, two, three. We plus play at the

1:33

same time. Okay. And then we watch it and we

1:35

chat. And then last night I set out a Zoom

1:38

week after. We like all got and chatted for like

1:40

20 minutes about like how crazy it all was. It's

1:42

super fun. Come meet your fam. Yeah. It's the True

1:44

Crime Obsessed podcast discussion group. That's right. What are we

1:46

talking about today? So like we're doing our

1:49

bonus episodes as we do, except we're not doing them

1:51

all at the end of the year. This year we're

1:53

sprinkling them in. Welcome. This is our fourth one, I

1:55

believe. This is a Dateline episode called Secrets in Pleasant

1:57

Prairie. This was a very cold.

2:00

calculating poem. This

2:02

innocent, kind, loving woman, those two

2:04

boys were everything to her. Just

2:08

imagine all that Julie lost. Julie

2:11

Jackson was phone covered with a blanket on the

2:13

bed. You've got a suspicious stuff.

2:15

Is it a homicide? Is it a suicide?

2:17

We just didn't know. One of the things

2:20

that police learned, Julie had an affair. Correct.

2:23

She reported having pornographic pictures left outside

2:25

the home, like in the car or

2:27

in the garage. These photos are

2:30

showing up at the office. They're

2:32

phone calls, heavy breathing. Somebody

2:35

was stalking her, harassing her.

2:37

Who would harass a couple

2:39

like that. We had talked

2:41

about potential suspects. Nobody. Nobody

2:43

deserved what she went through. She

2:45

wrote a letter. She said, if something

2:47

happens to me, please hand

2:50

us to the police. She predicted her

2:52

own death. She did. Essentially

2:54

talking from her grave. I

2:57

want Julie's voice to be heard. We

3:00

got to talk about these opening lines. It

3:02

was that magical time of year in

3:04

Penosha County, Wisconsin, nestled along the shore

3:06

of Lake Michigan in a village called

3:09

Lake Prairie. Colorful lights twinkled

3:11

and Christmas carols filled the air and then

3:13

the music gets dark and eerie. But

3:15

in a house a block from the lake,

3:17

there was no holiday cheer. Only

3:20

the eerie sound of a phone off

3:22

the hook. Andrea, can I? Honestly, that

3:24

sound of the... It's

3:27

terrifying. It is absolutely what

3:29

horror movies are made of. Children, that is

3:31

from a landline song. Give

3:34

it a goo. The phones

3:36

that we have now don't make that sound. But if

3:38

you had a phone that plugged into the wall in

3:41

your house and you left it off the hook, suddenly

3:43

you would hear like, it sounds like the devil. You

3:45

took the phone off the hook. Like the receiver.

3:47

Like in Mad Men. The receiver off the

3:49

hook. Yeah. And then to alert you that

3:51

your phone was off the hook because you couldn't get

3:53

any phone calls. No. It

3:56

was horrifying. The best part about having phones like that

3:58

was when you were really mad at somebody, hang

4:00

up really really dramatically. Not the same. It's how

4:02

I got through high school. I hung up on

4:04

people all the time. Sometimes like if someone didn't

4:06

answer that was it you were out of luck.

4:10

Oh my goodness. It's December 3rd 1998. Judy Jensen

4:12

is our victim and

4:15

she is found dead and her husband Mark

4:18

finds her under the covers in bed. She's

4:20

not breathing and he calls 911. We

4:22

learned that she's also a white, like she's a

4:24

mother of two, two young sons and that is

4:26

just like it's so awful and hard. We're 40

4:28

years old. Yeah. You know. So EMT

4:31

Dave says there's something different about the

4:33

way her face her body looked.

4:35

It wasn't peaceful. He

4:37

could tell Julie had been dead for a

4:39

while but had no idea how she died.

4:42

You don't see anything obvious on her like a

4:44

gunshot wound or a knife wound

4:46

correct? Correct. There wasn't that obvious trauma that

4:48

we associate with a violent death. That was

4:50

odd to you. Yeah. There was no indication

4:52

of how she died. There was like you

4:54

know it wasn't like a murder scene where

4:56

there was like gunshots or like knife wounds.

4:58

There wasn't blood all over the place. Yeah.

5:01

Like no blood, no weapons. Also no signs

5:03

of drugs or alcohol or anything that would

5:05

point to an overdose of any kind. Yeah.

5:07

Sort of. He just gets a feeling that

5:10

something here is not right. That there's no

5:12

evidence to prove what that something might be.

5:14

No. And husband Mark explains that he found

5:16

her when he got home after picking the

5:18

two boys up from school and he said

5:20

that Julie, his wife, our victim here, had

5:22

not been feeling well for a few days.

5:24

And also importantly she'd recently

5:26

started taking a new medication. The police

5:28

found the medication on the kitchen counter.

5:30

Yeah. Wouldn't you know it? The bottle of,

5:33

there's six boxes of Paxil right there on

5:35

the kitchen counter. It's also like we

5:37

learned that she'd been suffering from depression. We're

5:39

told for the last several months. Yes. Yes.

5:41

And so she was suffering from depression and

5:43

she was also experiencing some of the side

5:45

effects of Paxil which is an antidepressant. Yeah.

5:47

Loss of appetite and trouble sleeping. So she

5:49

wasn't like she was kind of going through

5:51

it. Right. Yeah. Now meanwhile Bob the DA

5:53

is dancing the night away at a black

5:55

tie fundraiser for a local hospital with Beverly.

5:57

I felt funny that I made the note that I was like

6:00

So funny that they really felt the need to

6:02

tell us how great this is. That why they

6:04

would. Really fun time. Everly was like we're having

6:06

a ball for several years. He interviewed. With father

6:08

the ice is also an attorney. Just bought

6:10

her talks and i more and down and

6:12

we went to the balls that you're having

6:15

a nice evening. Yeah and Bob. At

6:17

pains to I go to my car on a

6:19

call. The pleasant for a police department. And are

6:21

than a came back. He said he had leave. Everly

6:24

sit at the Gala Melbourne rushed over

6:27

to the Jensen home Beverly States to

6:29

keep the party gone. Beverages Er visits.

6:31

Lot of money for that black guy of were.

6:33

As air and so that when I'm not sure if

6:35

he turns out of his tux are not a dozen

6:37

money like. A Dead I'm just kind of

6:39

to the same spot as never fully

6:42

off the clock known a meme get.

6:44

Ahead especially with this case. This case become something that

6:46

would save with him even when he's done with his

6:48

career I've seen again. Simply

6:54

say, with that, are you going to be scared to

6:56

death? I really. Thought I.

7:00

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to how i got this job I do not want to

8:00

be on the receiving end of a lashing for me. Get that

8:02

out of here! If you're breaking into Jillian, that's my first Jillian

8:04

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8:29

And there's also nothing more terrifying than me screaming at

8:31

you to get out of Jillian town. So

8:33

is that a law? Just so good. Bob

8:39

the DA is like, I agree with EMT Dave. I

8:41

don't like this. Like, I don't like what I'm seeing

8:43

here. Something is wrong. He's saying the way- Not just

8:45

for the obvious reasons, but like something is a mess.

8:47

Right. And like from the beginning, everyone's like, I

8:49

can't put my finger on it, but something's up here. They're

8:51

talking about the way the body is laid on the bed. And as

8:53

soon as I saw Julie Jensen's body,

8:55

I could observe that the position

8:57

of her body was the way her arm was

8:59

spread out underneath her. I

9:02

said she was rolled into that position. Nobody

9:04

goes in that position naturally of their own accord.

9:07

Nobody would naturally be resting

9:09

in that state. Right. Even if it was like

9:11

a restless kind of sleep situation, like you just

9:13

kind of wouldn't end up the way that she

9:16

was laying. And they say Bob, the DA wants

9:18

to search the house, but he says they don't

9:20

have probable cause for a search warrant. So Bob

9:22

goes to find Mark, the husband, and just kindly

9:24

asks if he can have Bob's consent to do

9:26

like a death scene analysis and sort of search

9:28

the house. And Mark says yes. And I was

9:31

like, what's he going to say? But like a

9:33

death scene investigation is a real thing. They make

9:35

it sound kind of nefarious that Bob, the DA

9:37

like got one over on the husband, but like

9:39

doing a death scene investigation is a real thing

9:41

that happened. But you can't do it without

9:44

a warrant or consent or anything they find wouldn't

9:46

be admissible. Look how much I know as a

9:48

duque podcast. Well, we've been doing

9:50

it long enough. I've basically gone to EMT content

9:52

lawyer school. Oh, great. Bob, Bob,

9:54

the DA says, do we have permission to search

9:56

your house? You

10:00

know as just part of the protocol. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

10:02

yeah, yeah And Mark's husband is like, yeah, sure and the

10:04

cops are staff They Bob sees

10:06

a computer and he's very impressed. Remember this is

10:09

1998 So they're saying like

10:11

this is before the computers were commonly in homes

10:13

Like this is like a luxury item for like rich

10:15

people, right? And that's the first time they've like seen

10:17

a computer and they it was like a computer room

10:19

in the house Yeah, and so they're like we're taking

10:22

that computer I mean, I remember when

10:24

my family got our first computer we it

10:26

was probably around this time But it was

10:28

like a enormous desktop like we see here

10:30

and it was in the middle You mean

10:32

in the office because you and Steve refused to know it's a

10:34

Mac We have to have an enormous Dell from 1998 that

10:36

only you use look I

10:39

tried when we moved into this office. I tried to

10:42

get a Mac I could not figure it out I

10:44

for one two three second like three Not

10:47

I do not have the patience. I couldn't do it

10:49

But when we had our family computer when I was

10:51

growing up and it was like in the middle of

10:53

the living room Uh-huh. It was like a one family

10:55

computer. It was in the middle of the living room

10:57

like like It was

11:00

a whole different thing. It was a whole thing

11:02

different sounds. Oh my god. Can you do the the

11:04

dial-up sounds? Do

11:09

you know in Hamilton that in the like

11:11

in the my shot where everyone's like whoa,

11:13

whoa Yeah, when

11:15

Manuel Miranda made it seem like dial-up

11:17

because that's like the sound of information

11:19

transferring It's cool. You know, he's gonna go

11:21

places that kid You know, you master mark. He's a

11:24

smart kid. He's pretty good. But Bob the DA says

11:26

we're taking the computer We're taking that like we don't

11:28

even know really had to open it up So,

11:32

but here's the thing that blew my mind

11:35

the cops know Julie Jensen They were on

11:37

a first-name basis because Julie was facing a

11:39

lot of calls to the police because she

11:41

was dealing with Years of

11:43

harassment. They knew her Julie had been

11:45

calling the Pleasant Prairie Police Department for

11:48

years to report harassment Repeated

11:50

hang-up calls to her and her husband and

11:53

even more frightening She said they found

11:55

pornographic pictures planted at Mark's office and

11:57

outside of their house. She was

11:59

getting Like repeated hang up calls to

12:02

her and her husband. still also

12:04

were ported fighting pornographic pictures both

12:06

planted it marks office and outside

12:08

their housing. Somebody is leaving this

12:10

sex right around. Zero defects around

12:12

or have. The A says photos with penises.

12:14

I'm. Not the point

12:16

is as it's terrifying dell entire file

12:18

immediately. You're like this has to be connected my

12:20

up like someone is like out to get Julie

12:22

the right so slow. As a call her out

12:25

of there being stalked. Are being stalked? Yeah so

12:27

they want to learn more about Julie. Way so

12:29

diligence and was born in Kenosha with nonsense. She

12:31

was one of six children says the only girl

12:33

and our brother is here to say she was

12:36

in a zoo of a person and I don't

12:38

say that about many be either. Of

12:40

us I love virtually was afraid to his

12:43

room left me a spirit is our she

12:45

was. It's just nice she came from a

12:47

good person family have a. Sister

12:50

I says murder. Julie. Than that

12:52

jobs. So Jill and it is. Julie

12:54

was like super fun and really smart.

12:56

She played the violin this yeah. Really

12:58

well rounded as the. Bio his heart super

13:01

hot. Remember my episode where it will revive

13:03

the trombone outside the violin. Before that I

13:05

couldn't do it. reminded us humbled sorry have

13:07

you tried to play the trombone? I'm sorry

13:09

the problems in fourth grade today it's growing

13:11

up. I remember what I did I love

13:13

by Maria like everybody does their dad said

13:15

that that that up and the that lot

13:17

of Douglas is a trumpet rice bob bob

13:19

bob bob split very important up of i

13:21

was so sad and I got but I

13:23

tried the violin the year before and I

13:25

couldn't settle. The. His try the violent like this is

13:27

gonna be my life. he had a matter of allergy

13:29

or forgot right? or our you're just like this is

13:31

a commitment now scientists my desk us as I don't

13:34

think it's like. Like signal the

13:36

old I dial and know

13:38

it's interests. Markets like Chewing

13:40

Rights. So the Julia Mart store young

13:42

they first met when they worked part

13:44

time. It's years. I mean it is

13:47

the most abs to suburban meet you

13:49

you can imagine he. Are they worth

13:51

it in a series together? Yes. They

13:53

Brazilian college. they get married in Nineteen Eighty

13:55

Four, say or how discuss I had their

13:57

yuppies. Mark was a successful. stockbroker

14:00

Julie had also worked in the

14:02

financial world. In 1990, they welcomed

14:04

their first son, David. Five years

14:06

later, Douglas came along. Mark

14:08

was known around town as being quiet, but

14:11

also ambitious. He soon made

14:13

a name for himself at his firm, while Julie

14:15

put her career on hold. And

14:17

we learned that Julie puts her career on hold to stay at home with

14:19

the kids. Yeah, so David was born in 1990, Douglas

14:21

was born in 1995. Everything's amazing, except

14:23

they were being harassed on a regular basis. Yeah.

14:27

Like, really, their life was great. But if you knew

14:29

about, if she opened up to you, if Julie opened

14:31

up to you about what was happening, it was clarifying.

14:33

But we also learned that, like, they're a surface couple.

14:35

Like, they want people to think that they've got this

14:38

beautiful, lovely home life. Yeah. And

14:40

we will learn behind the scenes things aren't that great, but, like,

14:42

everyone thinks that Julie is the best mom, that her kids are

14:44

everything to her, which I'm sure was true. Yeah, at that part,

14:46

it's true. Julie didn't do anything wrong here. No,

14:48

but, like, the license plate on her car

14:50

says, My 3 D's for

14:53

Daddy, David, and Douglas. That's

14:55

such an 80s thing. It is. But,

14:57

like, Daddy and Julie did not get along. No,

14:59

they didn't. But Julie, just back to the harassment,

15:01

she was keeping a log of it. Yeah. And

15:04

this is why the cops knew her so much, because she was coming in with these information. Like,

15:06

she wanted them to get to the bottom of

15:08

it, so she would say, like, when a photo

15:10

appeared or when a phone call came in or

15:13

where or whatever, and then she says, like, in

15:15

her log, New tactic, emails. Oh, my God. Now

15:17

they're going to email. Yeah. And

15:19

as Bob the DA says, emails with penis photos on them. Penis

15:21

photos. Like, this is

15:23

terrifying. Also, like, more terrifying things, their outdoor

15:25

furniture was being rearranged, like what the Manson

15:27

family used to do. That shit is so

15:30

scary. It is. It

15:32

means the person was at your house. Yes.

15:35

They know where you live. They're harassing you. And so

15:37

over seven years, Julie called the police dozens of times,

15:39

and it's always like, Oh, we have limited resources. They're

15:41

like, Oh, it's not dangerous. Oh, it's not a threat.

15:43

Let me tell you, yes, it is. It is. When

15:46

something comes to your home and you don't consent

15:48

to it or you don't know where it's coming

15:50

from, that shit is scary. It is so scary.

15:52

So they eventually they meet with a private investigator named Dave Ellis.

15:54

He's here. The cops are like,

15:56

we can't do anything but try a P.I. I get your rich. Get a

15:59

P.I. They're like, okay, so Dave

16:01

Ellis, former police officer, current private eye. Yeah,

16:03

loves his job or no? Um, I think he's pretty into

16:05

it. I guess a former police officer kind

16:07

of makes sense, like in your twilight years or

16:09

whatever you want to call it. So Julie tells

16:11

him something really important. During that

16:14

meeting, Julie revealed a secret that got

16:16

the PI's attention, something she'd already

16:18

shared with the police and her husband. Years

16:21

earlier, she'd had a fling with a coworker

16:23

named Perry Tureka. She suspected

16:26

he might be behind all this. Julie

16:29

had a one night fling with

16:31

a coworker named Perry Tureka. Yes.

16:34

And she was like, he, we learned later that Julie

16:36

saw him as a creep. Yeah. I'll

16:39

explain why later. But she was like, maybe he's

16:41

behind this. It's the only person she can think

16:43

of. Yeah. But the police look into

16:45

this Perry guy and they're like, this guy moved to

16:47

North Carolina. They don't think that he's behind

16:49

it. But Julie is like, no, here's

16:51

what we think is going on. We think

16:54

that he's flying from South Carolina every

16:56

Friday, driving out to Kenosha where they live,

16:58

rearranging the patio furniture and leaving a

17:00

thick pack. Because they think he's doing that

17:02

every week. They think he's doing it every week.

17:04

Well, because what happened was Mark was away on business.

17:06

Yes. Julie had Perry over for

17:09

dinner. Julie's like, it was a one time thing. I will

17:11

never not be guilty about it. We never hooked up again.

17:14

But I think maybe he's involved because that was the

17:16

only time she like stepped out on the map or

17:18

anyway, but she thinks he's a creep. That's the thing.

17:20

But like it doesn't make any sense that he'd

17:22

be flying from South Carolina to Chicago.

17:24

Yeah. Like it doesn't make any

17:26

sense. So the pictures would be like at their house

17:29

or on the windshield of Mark's car. Like is

17:31

it just me or is it super obvious what's going on

17:33

here? It's pretty obvious, don't it? I'm

17:35

trying not to be obvious about it. Even watching the

17:37

episode, I'm like, Dayline, you're usually pretty good at this,

17:39

but like it's pretty clear what's happening. It's pretty clear

17:42

what's going on. Yeah. So Dave

17:44

the PI is like, all right, let me sit outside

17:46

Mark's office trying to catch this person in the act

17:48

because it would be like a like a like a

17:50

pornographic image of like a man and a woman or

17:52

whatever. On windshield. So they always appear on Friday. So

17:54

Dave the PI is like, okay. So Andrea Cannon goes

17:57

to relive the experience. So I saved the car in

17:59

the parking lot. A-cans is on the

18:01

ground reporting. And then this is where we like,

18:03

we learned that when Dave the PI goes back in

18:05

the 90s, nobody came.

18:07

And I'm like, well, did they like who

18:09

knew that there was going to be a stakeout?

18:11

Right. I wonder. Well, and

18:13

they only he only goes once. So like he goes

18:16

that one Friday, he says he's planning to go back

18:18

the next Friday. But then Julie called him.

18:21

Mark and Julie had said that they both

18:23

decided that they were going to terminate the

18:25

surveillance. Two years later, he

18:27

learned Julie was dead. I

18:30

was shocked because it started out as a harassment

18:33

case. Cut to two

18:35

years later, Julie dies. Yeah. But

18:37

meanwhile, the investigators are hard at work trying to

18:39

figure out what happened to Julie because the tox

18:41

screen was negative. Right. It

18:43

took them a month to get the tox screen back. Yeah. For

18:46

this very suspicious death. That is too long. Welcome

18:48

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18:50

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20:30

Okay. So

20:34

what about this fancy, fancy computer?

20:36

Yes. Someone was researching drugs and

20:38

different kinds of poisons, specifically ethylene

20:40

glycol, which is the main ingredient

20:43

in antifreeze. Yeah, and so they test

20:45

Julie's blood again and they find ethylene glycol. And

20:47

I'm like, Mark, husband Mark, I'd like a word.

20:49

Can I tell you this? So somebody asks them,

20:51

could you like test the blood? Was it too

20:54

late? And they're like, no. For another thing I

20:56

was researching, I learned when you

20:58

kill people using antifreeze, it crystallizes on their

21:00

organs and stays forever. Forever? So like in

21:02

this case that I was looking up, they

21:05

exhumed the body from 10 years ago that

21:07

like, because you're not screaming for this in

21:09

a talk screen, you're not screening for antifreeze.

21:12

Right. So like if they're gonna- Unless you're

21:14

asked to. Unless you're asked to. And so

21:16

when they're like, 10 years later, they're like,

21:18

we think it was antifreeze, they exhumed the

21:20

body covered in antifreeze. Wow. Like the antifreeze

21:22

crystals all over the organs. I think we've

21:24

talked about this in another case before. Like it's

21:26

not an uncommon way that people try to

21:28

poison people because it tastes sweet, so you

21:31

can mix it in things. And

21:33

it goes kind of slowly, people just get kind

21:35

of sick. Right. So Bob the DA was like-

21:37

I spent hours and hours and hours

21:39

learning about a thing I call poisoning.

21:41

And what I learned is that most

21:44

things I call deaths are suicide.

21:48

Had Julie Jensen killed herself after

21:50

researching her past, he could see how

21:52

it was possible. When it's found at

21:54

the scene, it's almost always due to suicide. Yes. So

21:56

could this have been the case with Julie? She has

21:58

a history of depression. her family has a

22:01

history of depression. She is in therapy for

22:03

postpartum depression. She really was prescribed Paxil before

22:05

she died. They spoke to the doctor. And

22:07

the doctor, when she's being prescribed Paxil,

22:10

is asking her about suicidal ideation. And

22:12

she says, absolutely not. Now, that doesn't

22:14

really mean anything. But in this case,

22:16

things are adding up that something bad

22:18

happened to Julie. And we have an

22:20

expert say, well, okay, let's break this

22:22

down. There wasn't a cup nearby, which

22:25

is how people usually take it. And

22:27

there was a very small amount in her system. You

22:29

need a lot more. If you're

22:31

going to die by suicide and you are choosing to do

22:33

it with antifreeze, you're not just gonna slowly take a couple

22:36

steps a day. You're gonna take as much as you need

22:38

to take. And also, in the other case that

22:40

I was researching, the way that the people who

22:42

died of this were killed was

22:44

a lot of it over time. So

22:46

these people got progressively sick over months.

22:48

And it wasn't little doses. It was

22:50

like a half a cup

22:53

or whatever mixed throughout, like in vodka

22:55

drinks or whatever, throughout the month. Right,

22:57

because what's weird, just like in this case,

22:59

the lab is saying that this was in her

23:01

system for several days. But only several days. It's

23:04

not really enough to kill her. But she's being

23:06

poisoned. Yes, but she's being poisoned. Again, Mark, get

23:08

your ass over here. I'm not gonna ask you

23:10

again. But actually first, before we

23:13

deal with Mark, let's talk about Kelly

23:15

Labonte. Yeah, because now we learn that

23:17

Julie wasn't the only one who had had an

23:19

affair. Police discovered racy emails

23:21

between the married lovers. Kelly

23:24

Labonte worked in the St. Louis office. He

23:26

worked in the Kenosha office, but he went

23:28

to St. Louis on a couple of occasions.

23:31

And he commenced having a sexual relationship with

23:33

her. And he was doing that in

23:36

the months preceding Julie's death. And

23:38

according to Mark's coworkers, it was

23:40

no secret. Can you imagine being the cop,

23:42

having to read other gross people's racy sexy

23:44

emails? I know, I know. Like it's a

23:46

thankless part of the job. But

23:49

you know. Hey lover. But if it was

23:51

Stacy, she's the gossip queen. Yes.

23:54

So Stacy is a fellow coworker, because like Mark

23:56

was having this affair in the months right before

23:59

Julie's death. Yeah. And we sit down, Andrea Canning

24:01

sits down to talk to Stacy, and Andrea Canning

24:03

is like, what's the guy? Literally,

24:05

what's the subtle butt around the office? And

24:07

Stacy's like, everybody knew about the affair. Everybody

24:09

knew. They were making it super obvious, even

24:12

though they didn't work in the same office

24:14

building, everybody knew about the affair. They were

24:16

hanging all over each other. Everyone's like, that's

24:18

fucking rude. And Kelly herself had just gotten

24:21

married. Why is everyone doing this? I don't

24:23

know. Why is everyone getting married? Like, what?

24:26

I don't understand this. No. My question

24:28

is, did Julie know about the affair? They don't ever

24:30

tell us. No. Julie writes, we'll get

24:32

into what Julie knows. Yes. So four

24:34

months into the investigation, Mark the husband

24:36

shows up to the police station with

24:38

his son asking for updates. They often

24:40

like to help. They often like to

24:42

help. And what I guess Mark the idiot doesn't

24:44

really know is that the police are really looking

24:47

at him, but they don't have enough to even

24:49

bring him down town on. And so he does

24:51

them a song and just walks in on his

24:53

own. And they're like, won't you come in? Hey,

24:55

girl. Do you want to, are you trying

24:58

to hide their excitement? They're

25:00

like that big eye emoji. Is this for real?

25:03

And we have footage of this. And I'm sorry, this

25:05

is a deep cut. Nobody cares. But he looks like

25:07

Robert Culpin every episode of Colombo that he ever did.

25:09

Who's Robert Culpin? He was an actor from the 60s

25:12

and 70s. But he's what they call a repeat offender.

25:14

So he's the bad guy in several Colombo episodes. This

25:16

guy looks exactly like him. Does he play the same

25:18

bad guy? No, no, no. Oh my god. Because they

25:20

were movies of the week. So you

25:22

could have several like repeat offenders. So I

25:24

call him like I see it. Nobody cares. I'm just saying

25:26

on the record, he looks like it. So

25:28

here's what Mark says. And I

25:30

want to say Mark walks in without a lawyer. I'm

25:33

going to say this about 1,500 times. He

25:35

can leave at any time. And he does

25:37

a four hour interview. So here's

25:39

what Mark says. He's like, she's not looking

25:42

good. She's got no border control. She

25:44

was mad often enough to where she should have called the rescue

25:46

squad, but she didn't want you to. She didn't want me to.

25:49

Well, right, I should have. I knew on hindsight I know

25:51

her. So you didn't do anything to

25:53

aid her, Deb? She didn't

25:55

do anything to stop her from dying. I

25:57

really didn't. I

26:00

just watched her. So you're saying

26:03

you didn't do anything to aid her death, but

26:05

you didn't do anything to stop it either. And

26:07

he goes, I really didn't. I just watched it

26:09

happen. This is coming out four months later.

26:11

So at the very least, he didn't tell the police

26:13

this in the moment. He just watched her die. We

26:15

just did this in Love Is One. They just watched

26:17

her die. You know what I mean? At any point,

26:19

he could have called 911. I'm sorry. I'm

26:21

sorry. If a person is dying, unless they have

26:24

a do not resuscitate or whatever, if it's a

26:26

mysterious illness out of nowhere, you gotta call 911.

26:28

Well, he's lying. He's also lying. You're right. I'm

26:30

talking to myself in circles as though this is

26:32

real. He's also lying. But it's also kind of

26:34

enough of an admission, right? Yeah. So

26:37

the cops show Mark the husband something from

26:39

Julie's autopsy. Yes. And this is a

26:41

bombshell. So Julie's nose was,

26:44

sorry everyone, but sort of pushed into the pillow.

26:46

It's not natural. Remember the cops at the scene

26:48

where no one just passes out? She

26:51

was rolled into a not

26:53

natural position. Mark's like,

26:55

that is weird. Nothing further than

26:57

that, right? Now, remember, he can

26:59

leave at any time. He can call for a

27:02

lawyer anytime. He walked in on his own accord,

27:04

and now it gets crazier. They

27:06

ask him about Kelly, the girlfriend. He lies.

27:09

He goes, uh, Kelly, Kelly who? I think,

27:11

I guess she's a coworker, friends, like acquaintance

27:14

at best. Now we know this is a

27:16

lie because the evidence from the computer is

27:18

a major one. And the cops know that

27:20

police discovered Kelly had left her husband and

27:22

moved into Mark's house just weeks after

27:24

Julie died. By this time, Mark

27:27

Jensen, by the way, had paid $12,000 to Kelly

27:29

Lavonte to

27:31

move from St. Louis to

27:33

Kenosha, Wisconsin. And

27:36

not only that, investigators were stunned to

27:38

learn just days after Julie's death, Mark

27:40

had thrown out all of his wife's

27:42

things. Kelly divorces her husband,

27:44

and a few weeks after that, she moves

27:46

into Mark and Julie's home. Mark is still

27:49

living in the house with his kids. They

27:51

let Mark give her 12 grand to

27:53

help her with the move. And I'm

27:55

like, what about your kids, Mark? I

27:57

know. It's unconscionable. These people do not

27:59

have souls. Now Mark and

28:01

Kelly, who he was having an affair

28:04

with, live together. And he is saying

28:06

in the comments, she's just a friend. Mark,

28:08

what you can say is, I don't want

28:10

to talk anymore and walk out. You walked

28:12

in here and he's just digging himself deeper. And

28:14

the detective has had it. I know. She's

28:17

got a role for him. I'm going to take it away, Judy. Well,

28:20

it's infuriating. They're getting nowhere with Mark. And they're like, everything he

28:22

says, he's lying. And it's like, it's not even fun anymore. I

28:24

know. Shooting fish in a barrel at the start.

28:27

Because then the detective pulled out a letter written by Julie to the

28:29

police. I'm

28:35

confused as to how the, I feel like she

28:37

wrote this letter and gave it to the neighbor

28:39

and the neighbor after the murder gave it to the

28:41

police. Yeah. It's a, if anything happens

28:43

to me, Mark did it last. So I took a screenshot

28:45

and I blew it up. She says a lot of things.

28:48

Oh, wow. So it starts with, you can always

28:50

count on GP. I got the screenshots

28:52

of everything. Oh,

28:54

everything. So she

28:57

is sending a picture like a screenshot from

28:59

the nineties. Basically. It's like a

29:01

photo of a list. And this is how the letter starts.

29:03

Is it galactic taco salad recipe? It is not. Okay.

29:06

Great. She says, I took this picture and

29:08

I'm writing this on Saturday, November 21st, 1998 at 7 a.m.

29:12

If anything happens to me, he would be

29:14

my first suspect. Julie even

29:16

sent a photo of the list on

29:18

it. Drug supply, razor blades,

29:21

syringe. She wrote,

29:23

I pray I'm wrong and nothing happens,

29:26

but I'm suspicious of Mark's suspicious

29:28

behaviors and fear for

29:30

my early demise. He would

29:32

be my first suspect. Our relationship has

29:35

deteriorated to the polite superficial. She's saying

29:37

we're just trying to keep up appearances

29:39

at this point, right? Yeah. And

29:41

I know he's never forgiven me for that, for the brief affair I

29:43

had with that creep seven years ago. Despite

29:45

the fact that he's having an ongoing

29:48

affair under her nose. Right. She

29:50

says, and see the, well, I'm going to read you what the

29:53

list says. Julie is saying

29:55

anyway, for the record, I don't drink, I

29:57

don't smoke. My mother was an alcoholic, so

29:59

I really limit. my drinking. Basically, like,

30:01

she goes, I would never take my

30:03

life because of my kids. They're everything

30:05

to me. I only take Tylenol. I

30:07

take multivitamins. She's trying to say if

30:09

it looks like I've been poisoned or

30:11

I overdosed, I did it. And here's the proof.

30:13

I'm saying right now, she goes, I've taken

30:16

a modium. I've had a prescription, but she's

30:18

trying to say, wow, with this list, she

30:20

goes, I pray I'm wrong and that nothing

30:22

happens, but I'm suspicious of Mark's behaviors. And

30:25

she's scared for her early demise. She says, so she

30:28

knew this was coming on the list. The

30:30

things that she found on this list,

30:33

it was quote, drug supply, razor blade

30:35

and a syringe and then

30:37

bottle dash booze patches, shells,

30:40

like, oh my God. And like the reason we're

30:42

told that she doesn't leave, I don't know when

30:44

we get it, but let's, you know, if you're

30:46

scared for your life, you know, I would think

30:48

that you would try, no matter what, you'd try

30:50

to find a way to safety and she's afraid

30:52

that she'll never see the kids again. Right. Of

30:54

course. I mean, yes. Anyway, I don't know. I

30:56

mean, I know. I

30:58

know. And even in writing it, there's got to

31:00

be a part of you that is trying to

31:02

convince yourself that you're wrong to write out.

31:04

Wait, let me write what all the facts are. And

31:07

then if you see it, maybe you'll say, but if

31:09

you're, if you're to the point where you're writing a

31:11

letter, I know you are to the point where you

31:13

send a text message or anything to, if something happens

31:15

to me, this person did it, then you, that danger

31:17

is real. And what's so sad about this is

31:20

I believe the chain of events is that

31:22

she gives this letter to her neighbor and

31:24

it only makes its way to the cops

31:26

after her death. Right. Which to my question

31:28

is like, what should people do with that

31:30

letter? If you feel the need to write

31:32

that letter, but you're not quite ready to

31:34

like tell the cops or whatever, what do

31:36

you do? Yeah. What do you do?

31:38

By the time the cops are reading it, it's too late. This letter

31:40

to me reads like she knows that this

31:42

is going to be read after the fact

31:45

because she even she addresses cops that she

31:47

knows for the harassment. Yeah. Yeah. Ron

31:49

Cosman, Detective Ratzenberg, like she's addressing it

31:51

to them. So she's saying, here's what

31:53

I'm telling you. Here's my testimony. And

31:55

here's this. So if something ends up

31:58

happening to me, he already wrote. this

32:00

list and here's what I'm telling you I've

32:02

maybe taken my prescriptions whatever because she says

32:04

however I will not leave David and Douglas

32:06

my life's greatest love accomplishment and wish oh

32:09

it feels like she's writing it like she knows

32:11

it's gonna be found after something terrible happens well

32:14

and when the detective like remember

32:16

we're still in this four hour

32:18

interrogate volunteer interrogation they pull

32:20

out this letter and give it to him

32:23

to read and they leave the room and

32:25

we watch him read it and he is

32:27

fucking frozen he is an utter disbelief because

32:29

he has his head down but he has his

32:31

hands and arms are like off the table in

32:33

his lap he's frozen and remember this rose 1998

32:35

like we have this police

32:37

footage from 1990 it's rare that we get this

32:39

kind of like quality police footage right from back

32:41

then it still looks like the 70s girl

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34:27

Now, Mark Still, he has all of this.

34:29

It's been four hours. He has the letter,

34:31

and he's still denying. And now the detectives

34:33

start yelling at him. Because he's infuriating. And

34:35

they have him on so many lies already.

34:37

Right. And even admitting the fact that he

34:39

just watched her die and didn't do anything about

34:41

it. Right. He clearly was involved. And now

34:43

the cops started accusing Mark of planting those

34:45

pornographic photos all over the place. In

34:47

retaliation for the brief affair that she had.

34:50

And he says, he goes, I didn't plant

34:52

them, but I did hang onto them and

34:54

eventually sort of recycle them and put them

34:56

back out just to upset her. Right.

34:59

Which is the same as planting them. Right. He would

35:01

use them against her. Like, I'd get pissed off and

35:03

then plant them just to punish her. Yeah. But I

35:05

didn't put them there originally, but I kept them, and then I

35:07

would put them back out. You put them there originally. Yeah, of

35:09

course. To torture her. Of course. And like, what a

35:12

piece of shit. You have two kids. I know.

35:14

Like, this is how you want them to grow

35:16

up surrounded by abuse that you're doing. Right. Like,

35:18

that you want them, you're actively choosing for them

35:20

to grow up surrounded by abuse. And

35:22

then abuse. And then you kill her, which means

35:25

you've taken her away and now

35:27

very likely you're yourself away. Now, Andrea

35:29

can't accept something where I'm like, oh, my God. I

35:31

wrote this on verbatim. It was something, but

35:33

of course, humiliating and harassing his wife

35:35

with pornography was not an admission of

35:38

murder. After four hours,

35:40

the police had no choice but to let Mark

35:42

walk out of the station. She goes,

35:44

of course, humiliating and harassing his wife with pornography

35:46

is not an admission of murder. I, yeah. Andrea,

35:49

did you know you were going to say that when you showed

35:51

up to work today? What a sentence and a half. I know.

35:53

I mean, I feel like when Keith walked in with your copy

35:55

that he stayed up all night writing, you could have looked at

35:57

that line and said, I'm not saying that, girl. Right, but it

35:59

doesn't. It's not an omission

36:01

of murder, but that's not the

36:04

end of a sentence. Give me an ellipse. I know, I

36:06

know. But it does make him a big hit. But

36:08

he is abusing his sons also. We really put Andrea through

36:10

it with that one where she had to go to Scotland

36:13

where that guy was pretending not to be that guy. Andrea

36:15

Canning's kind of a rushier. I mean, you know

36:17

what I mean? She was like, are you seeing

36:19

this? I know. Are you seeing him, right? I

36:21

know. But she was like, take off the ventilator. No, take

36:24

off. I will do it, but I know.

36:26

I'm Andrea Canning. I know. I

36:28

know. So after four hours,

36:31

Mark finally leaves the police station

36:34

and Bob, the DA, is like, I know Mark did this.

36:36

I just have to prove it. Like, it's very obvious. And right

36:38

now it's been like, come on. And he's saying that like right

36:40

now we don't have the evidence. And then the

36:42

years just start ticking by because what has to happen

36:44

here, that letter that you just took the screenshots, I

36:47

would read, thank God you did that because I didn't

36:49

know how much information was actually in there. She

36:51

gave a lot. So here's like, there's no evidence that

36:53

Mark was the one slowly poisoning Julie. There's no evidence

36:55

that Mark was the one looking it up on the

36:57

computer. Like, this can all be like Bob, the DA

37:00

is like how he's trying to think ahead. He's playing

37:02

chess. The point is, Bob, the

37:04

DA has to fight for years to

37:06

get that letter admitted as evidence. He

37:08

cannot charge Mark without being able to

37:10

admit this as evidence. And because Mark

37:12

has a right to question an accuser

37:14

or whatever, like in a court of

37:16

law and Julie is dead, so he

37:18

wouldn't have that opportunity. The judge is

37:21

like saying you can admit this. Right.

37:24

The defendants have a right to cross examine anyone who

37:26

brings evidence against them. That's technically Julie bringing evidence against

37:28

Mark. She can't testify because she's

37:30

not here. And I'm like, exactly. She's not

37:32

here because she's been killed. Because she did exactly what

37:34

happened, what she said was going to happen in the letter.

37:36

Right. Like there's a reason she's not here.

37:38

Right. Right. And

37:41

Mark's the reason. So the DA Bob is fighting the

37:43

judge. It takes years. And meanwhile, while this fight is

37:45

happening and Bob, the DA is like, this needs to

37:47

be admissible. Like she wrote it all

37:49

out. Like look at what she said. Mark has moved

37:51

on with his life, building a successful construction company and

37:54

a new life with his girlfriend. Then

37:57

he saw an announcement in his local paper. in

38:00

the newspaper that Marc Jensen was marrying Kelly

38:02

Labonte. And I thought, she's victim number two.

38:04

When he gets tired of this toy, he's

38:06

going to toss her in the trash heap

38:08

like he did with Julie. As soon as

38:11

he's tired of this toy, he'll toss her

38:13

in the trash heap as well. Right? And

38:15

so we're like. Which is really true. Like,

38:17

Kelly, you have to know what happened here.

38:20

Like, what is the story that Marcus told you?

38:22

Right. What happened to Julie? Yeah. And I'm sure

38:24

it's like she was crazy. She was depressed. She

38:26

was finally and whatever. She killed herself. Yeah. Keep

38:29

some stuff around for the boys. I

38:31

know. Don't erase her completely. That's a

38:33

major red flag, Kelly. I just keep thinking

38:35

about what living in that house must have been like.

38:37

Those boys' moms just died. Then they've got a new

38:39

mom that just moves in. It's going

38:41

to be awful for Kelly. Yeah. Thank

38:44

God Kelly's ex-husband dodged a boy. Right. You

38:46

know? So this marriage is what prompts Marc's

38:48

arrest. Because he's trying to save that piece

38:50

of shit, Kelly. And Bob the DA is like,

38:52

I don't have an airtight case. But god damn

38:54

it, I'm arresting him anyway. Honestly.

38:57

So Marc is shocked. Remember, this is

38:59

years later. Marc thought he got away

39:01

with it. Well, because Bob the DA is like,

39:03

Marc always thought he was the smartest guy in

39:05

every room. Bob the DA has got some choice

39:07

words at the end of this thing. You think

39:09

I didn't write it down verbatim? And

39:11

he's like, you know, this guy thought he could talk

39:13

himself out of everything. Absolutely not not on our watch.

39:15

Well, except that he kind of does. Because there's

39:17

a half million dollar cash bond. Marc pays it.

39:20

And he's back out on the street. Yeah. You

39:22

know, he's living his life. He's got this

39:24

brand new business, a new wife, a new child.

39:26

Hopefully he's raising or giving a shit about the

39:29

other two kids. But what the DA is

39:31

saying is that like, all right, we got

39:33

to get this letter admitted. If we can't get this

39:35

letter admitted, we have no case. Right. So now

39:37

it's eight years after Julie's murder. Eight years.

39:39

There's a brand new witness. His name is

39:42

Ed Kluc. He's an old coworker with a

39:44

lot of stories to tell. My question

39:46

for all of these people is, where have

39:48

you been? Where have you been? So

39:50

Ed, please. And also, I

39:53

want to point out that Bob the DA is

39:55

so committed to this case. He's left the DA's

39:57

office, but he's stayed on this case as a

39:59

special process. The editor yeah yeah yeah was amazing.

40:01

Yeah so and is a coworker former coworkers as

40:03

yeah market. I were at this conference about three

40:06

weeks before Julie's that just Mark was getting hammered.

40:08

The more he drank the more he talks. Which

40:10

is like a thing that happened. I mean. This

40:12

is so insane in I think he kind of

40:14

brought up the how he hated his wife. He

40:17

talked about how we could killer. As

40:19

first i thought he was hope you

40:21

know you'd jump on the kill my

40:23

life but it's like on the more

40:26

he talked in the more details of

40:28

and of i'm telling you about on

40:30

the website she to go to the

40:32

law the poisons he was a typical.

40:35

You know I can way to kill my life

40:37

joke and away as I have a. Half

40:40

ago my wife is no way to killer I know

40:42

is that it's. I know know it's like

40:45

also keeps saying that Marcus pointing to

40:47

specifically that they didn't go to the

40:49

specific poisons you would use like he's

40:52

got a real plan to watch. My

40:54

question to advocate worker is did you

40:56

wanna let the white noise goes. Interesting.

40:59

So at no point is I think he'd

41:01

to warn Julie and ahead says well, no

41:03

because I didn't know how serious he was

41:05

but I didn't tell everyone else in the.

41:07

I did so everybody was a be

41:09

was a big into your office junk

41:11

food and gossip queen still sees an

41:13

idea of like I find out weird

41:15

about our but then I. Just

41:19

got pregnant but like says he's onto the next

41:21

dos and it's like someone's life is in danger.

41:23

He has Then Stacey says i forgot all about

41:25

a bit a month later Julian lead us to

41:27

which I said set up a photo really want

41:30

to go to the cops is a like i

41:32

don't know this is anything. But big doesn't have

41:34

a greater that decides He told us exactly I was

41:36

given to a bar month ago that it is as.

41:39

Between that and then the letter hi

41:41

neighbor. like everyone else, everyone sailed. Julie's

41:43

is a much eight years later that

41:45

we're here. I do. With like Edu

41:47

knew that he was and you knew that like

41:50

what? where have you been. Just as typical,

41:52

Hilarious. I can't wait to kill myself.

41:54

Self sufficient or Foxwoods was would the

41:56

specific website and the poison. like I

41:58

know, I. was that the way And

42:00

go back to my hotel room and start making

42:02

me appropriate phone calls Am I just am I

42:04

like a Karen or like a rat like wonder

42:06

like if somebody said that to us hammered at two

42:08

in The morning at a bar like is it maybe

42:10

because of what we do for a living? We'd be

42:12

like that because everyone you make it anonymous phone. I

42:14

know I know everyone thinks this guy's weird, too Like

42:17

that's the other it's not like it was like your

42:19

best friend that you know I mean you never actually

42:21

do that no, but like if somebody said that to

42:23

us at a bar Well, I don't know. I don't

42:25

know what I would do somebody was telling me

42:27

websites and poisons Yes, but

42:29

then but then their spouse actually ended up

42:31

dead a month later I absolutely would not

42:34

wait eight years to pick up a phone

42:36

and and make my story told I think

42:38

at the very least you can pick up

42:40

a phone and say like yeah I want to

42:42

report this creepy conversation. I'm alive and she

42:44

lives in Omaha That's an old school like the

42:46

scariest moment of my life was watching Unsolved Mysteries

42:48

when I was like 10 years old by myself

42:50

And there was a missing woman named Judy Haim

42:52

and like I was alone in a dark room

42:54

and like 8 o'clock at night And everybody else

42:56

was tears pitch black at 8 o'clock at night

42:59

And like I just remember somebody picks up and like

43:01

you they shoot the person from like the mouth down

43:04

the reenactment So reenactment did she picks up a phone

43:06

in a phone booth and put a cloth over the

43:08

receiver and goes And

43:14

So scary like we get to the bottom of that no

43:16

we never fight every now and then I will I will

43:18

Google Judy Haim and Omaha to see if we ever found

43:21

her we didn't oh my god I know but like sometimes

43:23

I will wake up in the middle of the night as

43:25

though somebody just whispered in my ear Somebody

43:33

make me a mug oh gosh I Have

43:36

sort of good news a silver lining here. Oh

43:38

great Julie's letter is ruled to be admissible Yeah, which

43:41

is a major one for the project you get the

43:43

sense that as soon as these witnesses come forward to

43:45

judge who had Been kind of pushing back against yet.

43:47

It's not fucking around anymore. They're putting everything together. Yeah,

43:49

yeah, yeah, so January 8th 2008

43:53

nine years after Julie's murder Mark's trial begins

43:55

and Lawyer Ed reads

43:57

Julie's letter in his opening statement, which is an

43:59

amazing It really is amazing.

44:01

It's like here's what she wrote and now I'm

44:03

gonna tell you I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pointing to

44:06

all the things Why she felt the need to write

44:08

this letter I'm glad that you like Screenshot and

44:10

read the leg because it really tells us everything

44:12

cuz you know They say that he also says

44:14

in this opening like he's really trying to paint

44:16

her is not suicidal But she's painting herself. It's

44:18

not she's saying I'm never going to kill myself

44:21

The reason I kind of said earlier it might

44:23

have sounded kind of callous I'm like and wouldn't

44:25

you know what all the bottles of Paxil? Yeah,

44:27

it's because he placed them there and when you

44:29

read you like you have one bottle of Paxil

44:32

out If you have a three-month supply you put

44:34

it somewhere else. They're not all out on the

44:36

counter though Right and so the reason I said

44:38

that is because when we when you read Julie's

44:40

letter She says I take Tylenol occasionally a modium

44:43

and my and any prescription whatever but like she's

44:45

not collecting pills I like she knew yeah She

44:47

could see a couple moves ahead of mark that

44:49

he's gonna make it look like I downed all

44:51

the stuff I promise you I didn't so that's why I said

44:53

it I kind of ruined the I kind of it was a

44:56

little bit of a spoiler But that's why I said it no

44:58

it's important But another important point that gets

45:00

made in this opening argument is that Julie

45:02

was so desperate She reached out to a

45:04

police officer just days before her death and

45:07

he told Julie there's really no basis for

45:09

us to suspect that your husband is

45:11

trying to kill you and Really

45:14

if you're concerned about that you should go to a woman's

45:16

shelter You should take your children and leave but

45:18

Julie didn't take that advice Jam boys

45:20

says she was afraid of mark and worried that

45:22

if she fled he would take her boys You

45:25

should take your children and leave can we listen

45:27

to women? I know can we please for

45:29

the love of God listen to us at

45:31

the very least if there literally is nothing

45:34

Legally that you can do and if that is

45:36

true don't just say take your kids and leave

45:38

say here are resources Here's how we can help

45:40

you find out where to go right say hold

45:43

on come in yes Can we get you some water

45:45

or something are your guns? Okay, and help her come

45:47

up with a plan or help her go to a

45:49

place where she can talk to an expert and help

45:51

Her come up with a plan. I don't just turn

45:53

her away This is where we learn that she was

45:55

so afraid of mark that if she left she would never

45:58

see the kids again And I just like I just I

46:00

don't know, like you knew he was

46:02

gonna kill you and then he did and so

46:04

you're not gonna see the kids again So what

46:07

do we do? What do people in this situation

46:09

do? You have to talk to I

46:11

think I'm not saying I'm not an expert But

46:13

I would think that a step would be you

46:15

talk to someone you trust and then that person

46:17

on the other end of the phone Listens to

46:19

you. Yes, and you try to start a little

46:21

bit of a life raft here where you know,

46:23

like it's not easy But I

46:25

think it needs to be a little bit of a give

46:28

and take Walk into a police station

46:30

and said I think my husband is going to kill

46:32

me. That's what you do I guess that's the answer to my

46:34

question Like that that's what you do you go to the cops

46:36

because you think they're gonna help you but and then

46:38

they don't and then that Is

46:41

it's a very lonely feeling when you go

46:43

to someone that you think is gonna help

46:45

you and they just say I don't know

46:47

I mean especially like this was like the 90s

46:49

where it's like you look at this guy He's like

46:51

a rich white guy upstanding member of a community He

46:53

has a lot of power and she is scared

46:56

and like just listen I think listening

46:58

is like a really important step. I

47:00

agree So the prosecutor also shows to

47:03

jury numerous searches for poison on the

47:05

computer and this is so

47:07

important They outlined the activity on the computer

47:09

the morning Julie died So that

47:11

morning at 9 30 a.m There are

47:14

searches for ethylene glycol poisoning which is what was

47:16

in her system when they found her dead and

47:18

the prosecutor says that had To

47:20

have been mark doing the searches not

47:22

Julie Remember mark himself

47:25

told police Julie couldn't get out of bed

47:27

that morning If

47:31

you're in bed and you can't speak and

47:33

you can't move You

47:36

can't be looking up ethylene glycol on the

47:38

computer and by the way those two searches

47:40

were then double deleted It had to have

47:43

been him that made those searches because he

47:45

himself says that Julie was too sick to

47:47

get out of bed She's never noticed skills

47:49

anymore. She never motor skills. She's At

47:52

9 30 in the morning, and why would she

47:54

be googling that exactly? So yeah his own story

47:56

incriminates him and the searches were double deleted

47:59

what I'm like even do that you don't okay

48:01

even in 1998 shit isn't fully deleted yeah but then

48:06

we got a jailhouse informant here

48:08

we go I know

48:11

and once again I do not know why

48:13

these why these people are allowed I don't

48:15

know why we ever take them but this

48:18

guy's got some information you know he's shared

48:20

a cell block with Mark and like you

48:23

know my whole thing about these jailhouse snitches or

48:25

whatever it's like why would we believe that the

48:27

guy who's in prison for murder would be loosely

48:29

lip-ly talking about the murder that he did but

48:31

then you remember he was at the bar a

48:33

couple years ago with his friend Ed talking about

48:35

the websites of the poison and yeah it's so

48:38

okay so his name is Aaron yeah and

48:40

Aaron testifies yet Mark poisoned her he mixed

48:42

the anti-freeze and some juice he would do

48:44

this every day yeah so she was slowly

48:46

getting very sick just like you were saying

48:48

yeah the day of this is really fucking

48:50

heartbreaking yes the day of her murder her

48:52

boys noticed how sick she was and they're

48:54

young but they notice how sick she is and

48:56

so they're like they're begging their dad to call for

48:58

help to call a doctor so he's like you know

49:00

what I'm gonna drop you off at school if she's

49:02

not better by the time you get back from school

49:04

I'll handle it now that is a really important thing

49:06

to put a pin in we'll get back to him

49:09

saying that in a minute because Andrea says Andrew

49:11

canning yeah Andrew

49:14

canning says well now the clock is ticking right she's

49:16

got to be dead before the kids get home from school so

49:18

he takes the kids to school the

49:20

husband comes home Julie is still breathing

49:22

and he realizes I'll have to kill

49:25

my wife before our sons come home

49:27

from school and because other we made

49:29

the promise they're gonna demand that he called 911 remember

49:32

everyone has said that her body was in

49:34

an unnatural position and that her face and

49:36

nose were turned to the side right so

49:39

the jaws informant tells us that Mark told

49:41

him so according to Dillard Jensen said

49:43

he took matters into his own hands that's

49:46

when he said he rolled her over and just sat

49:48

on her back and pushed on her neck into the

49:50

pillow pushed her face into the pillow

49:52

after he had drugged her the reason the boys

49:54

are realizing that she's not feeling well is because

49:56

he did her motor skills were not working right

49:58

that is like there's always another of truth

50:00

with these people. That was the thing that's true.

50:02

But my question is why would he tell

50:04

this guy this? Why would Mark

50:07

tell this? If he couldn't wait. I guess. But

50:09

it's like you know that these people are going

50:11

to turn on you if it's one less day

50:13

in prison. Well, Mark's lawyers are like,

50:15

no, no, no, no, no, you have

50:17

this all wrong. Mark did not kill

50:19

Julie to be with his girlfriend. Julie

50:22

killed herself to get revenge on Mark because by

50:24

killing herself she'd be framing Mark for her murder.

50:26

And I'm like, shut up. That doesn't make any

50:28

sense. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't

50:31

make sense. These people went to law school. Like,

50:33

please. I know. The trial goes on for

50:35

seven weeks, which is quote one of the longest

50:37

criminal trials in Wisconsin history. And I'm like, okay, we

50:39

do this every time. We do this every time.

50:41

I know. Isn't Stephen Avery, Wisconsin? I feel like that

50:44

went on for a while. Yeah. But I don't

50:46

know what years. Oh, who knows? So four days

50:48

later, the jury has a verdict and Mark is

50:50

found guilty of intentional homicide in the first degree

50:52

and he gets life without parole. Yes. Now I'm

50:54

like, where's Kelly? Where's the new wife? I know.

50:56

I'm just raising the kids. Like that's my other

50:58

question. Because now he has three kids. So,

51:01

oh my God, is she raising Julie's kids? I

51:03

don't, I mean, I don't know. We don't hear.

51:05

I mean, we see one of them at 30

51:07

years old later, but yeah, so Mark goes to

51:10

prison and his lawyers are appealing over

51:12

and over and over again. Yeah. So

51:14

13 years later, a court vacates a

51:16

sentence. Well, there's a Supreme Court decision

51:18

changing the admissibility rules about like, admissibility

51:21

rules for things like the letter, for

51:23

example. So they want the rules now to

51:25

apply to trials from 13 years ago.

51:27

Which is so weird. And the court was like,

51:29

yeah, okay. So because, so

51:32

the lower, sometimes that's great. Yeah. We've seen

51:34

cases where it's like, okay, finally something has changed to

51:36

make it so that like, sometimes it's great, but we

51:38

hate this guy. But the lower court vacates

51:40

his conviction saying that the letter never

51:43

should have been admitted, which is fucking

51:45

wild. He gets a new trial. And

51:47

this time the letter is not admissible. Right.

51:49

Now lawyer Bob is still trying this case.

51:51

He's moved on in his career, but he's

51:53

a special prosecutor for Julie and he's joined

51:55

by DA Carly McNeil. Yeah. He was eight

51:57

years old when Julie was murdered. She didn't even know

51:59

what happened. She didn't even know. But all the main players

52:01

are back, Ed, the guy from the bar, like the

52:03

former co-worker, he's back to talk about the conversation at

52:05

the bar, that same Joe House informant.

52:08

Aaron. Aaron comes back. And then we have

52:10

like a second incarcerated person come forward named

52:12

Dave Thompson. He was in for bank robbery.

52:14

This guy's got a wild story. In 2007. So

52:17

he shared a cell block with Mark and he's only in

52:19

for bank robbery, which is not like only, but it's not

52:21

murder. And so Mark is like,

52:23

David. Hi. This

52:26

guy, I was running my mouth, you know how it is. I

52:29

can't wait to kill my wife, Joe. Yeah, that's

52:31

how it's been. And he goes, I

52:33

need you to get rid of Ed, this witness, because he's

52:35

going to come and like blow this whole thing. What did

52:37

he want to happen to Ed? He wanted

52:39

him kidnapped, you know, to prevent

52:42

him from coming to trial. And I told him, I might

52:44

be able to make it happen for you. It

52:46

was never going to happen. It was just a scheme

52:49

to trick Mark on some money. He told

52:51

Mark for a thousand dollars, he could have someone

52:53

kidnap Ed and hold him until after the trial.

52:55

Could you like kidnap him for a little bit

52:58

so that he doesn't testify? And Dave's like,

53:00

yeah, I could totally do that for you. No,

53:02

this guy, David had no, he says

53:04

he was never going to do it, but he was like going

53:07

to use this as leverage to like get a lighter sentence or

53:09

whatever. And also scam this guy to a thousand dollars.

53:11

Oh yeah, yeah. He's like, pay me a thousand

53:13

bucks. So Mark's like, no problem. So we hear

53:15

Mark. And if the

53:17

witness was going to get kidnapped. Or

53:19

yeah, kidnapped or something. We

53:21

hear, so Mark the murderer calls his

53:23

new wife, Kelly, and we hear him

53:25

say, just send me two payments and

53:28

I'll be like, I'll send you 500 bucks. And that'll be it. He's

53:30

not telling her why. Right. And it's

53:32

not like send it to my commissary. No, no, no. That's

53:35

not what this is. I need like ramen and cigarettes. It's

53:37

not bad. I'm just imagining

53:39

you in prison living on a diet of ramen and

53:41

cigarettes. Like, is that what's going to get me to

53:43

start smoking? Ugh. Sometimes

53:47

ramen really hits the spot. Are you kidding? You

53:49

know what I mean? I don't understand

53:52

the ramen hate. Well, it's bad

53:54

for you. All right, so it's packed

53:56

with sodium. Who cares? Balance

53:58

it out. Get a grip, everyone. Sometimes

54:00

it really hits the spot. Is it that

54:02

bad for you? It's pretty bad for you. Why? I

54:05

think so. And can it get cost a dollar? Yeah.

54:09

Part of the reason why it's okay. Listen, I grew up

54:11

on it. Like, the other days I only ate that. I

54:14

still have ramen in my head. Should I not be eating ramen?

54:16

Probably not. I

54:19

mean, like, number one, it comes in that, like, plastic.

54:21

It's that plastic. You know what I mean? Like, it's...

54:24

You know what I mean? It's just, like, hard and soft and noodle. It's

54:26

hard. But the moment you,

54:28

like, put the packet of the flavoring in

54:30

and you... Yeah. Am I having

54:32

ramen? Salt on salt on salt. I mean, am I stopping

54:35

at, like, whatever the down-market-est CVS I

54:37

can find and getting 10 ramen? Or

54:39

right here in New York City, we can have some of the best

54:41

ramen outside of Tokyo. But sure. I

54:43

know. But it's how you always say that Domino's isn't pizza.

54:46

Domino's is not pizza. No, but, like, sometimes it's exactly what

54:48

you want. Right.

54:51

It's a Domino's... It's a Domino's. It's

54:53

a Domino's. Is that delectable? Right.

54:56

But I'll take it. It's the

54:58

only pizza-shaped thing I'll eat with

55:01

ranch. Regular dollar slices. I don't

55:03

know. Because it's real pizza. Yeah,

55:05

yeah, yeah. Anyway, David's like, yeah, I could probably make that

55:07

guy disappear. No worries. You just tell me

55:09

when and where. And so we have the audio. Jam

55:11

Boys played a jailhouse recording of a call from

55:13

Mark to his wife, Kelly, asking her for money.

55:16

But he didn't tell her what it was for. How

55:18

much? Oh, I'd

55:21

be, like, 500. Okay. Maybe

55:23

twice. And that would be it. A

55:26

thousand dollars, just as Thompson had described. I

55:28

need $500 and two deliveries. And

55:31

don't ask me any questions. You

55:33

idiot. You idiot. You idiot.

55:35

No, but also, because it's 13 years later, we have much

55:37

better technology. Yes. So we

55:39

know we are able to get to the

55:41

bottom of who was behind those pornographic photos

55:44

for all those years. Is anyone shocked it

55:46

was Mark? No. Going by

55:48

Turtle? He just literally created another

55:50

email account. They were able to just unblock the

55:52

turtle's name to see where the email was coming

55:54

from. But it was literally like Mark,

55:57

Julie's husband, at my first email

55:59

account. And he

56:01

just changed the name, the like, sender

56:03

thing to turtle something. Like, what? This

56:06

was the early day. We had no idea you were going

56:08

to be able to track all this stuff. Well, we can.

56:10

I know. Thank God. I'm

56:14

one of them. Keep it up. I know. So,

56:18

the defense is sticking with the

56:20

suicide defense. They're dropping the heat she

56:22

was trying to frame him because the letter wasn't

56:24

allowed and that was where they were making that

56:26

argument, but they are sticking with the suicide defense.

56:29

And they called David, their son, to

56:31

testify. He's 33 years old now. And

56:33

the prosecutors are like, this actually helped

56:35

our case, even though David is testifying

56:37

for the defense. Because, basically, David says on

56:39

the stand, yes, my mom was really sick

56:41

that day and my dad did say to

56:43

us that if we... he's testifying for his

56:46

dad. Right. But he's saying that, like, my

56:48

dad did say that if she was still feeling not well by the

56:50

time we got home from school, then he would call 911. He's

56:52

corroborating stuff that... The timeline. Yeah.

56:56

So, that is great for the prosecution. Yes. It

56:58

takes like a few hours and the jury finds Mark guilty.

57:00

Yeah. And he gets the same sentence, life without parole.

57:02

And DA Bob goes, I got that son of a bitch. Got

57:04

that son of a bitch. And he goes, and you know

57:06

what? This is the best. Every time that I

57:09

have a nice steak dinner with a good glass

57:11

of wine, I'm going to enjoy it all that

57:13

much more knowing Mark Jensen's getting down a bologna

57:15

sandwich and a glass of water because that guy's

57:17

going to die in prison. Mark

57:20

Jensen is getting a bologna sandwich and a glass

57:22

of water because that guy's going to die in

57:24

prison. Bob! Bob

57:26

is... I mean, this is Bob's life's work. Yeah. You

57:29

know what I mean? Like, he did it.

57:31

Yeah. And just like last words, when a

57:33

woman is telling you that she's in danger, can you just

57:35

listen to her? Just believe her. Like, Julie made it very

57:37

clear. Yep. She was very honest about it. She wrote

57:39

it out like, please, listen to her. I know. She

57:42

tried to go to the police. Like, please listen to women for fuck's sake. I know.

57:44

I couldn't agree more. God. Like,

57:47

how much more? Like, what's it going to take? I know. Girl,

57:51

we did what they're called? So,

57:54

this is a Dateline episode called Secrets

57:56

and Pleasant Prairie. Oh my goodness. Sam,

57:58

I want to let you know some really... fun things we're doing.

58:01

I'd love for you to join the Patreon so you

58:03

can join us for these like live virtual events we're

58:05

doing. We've done two drag bingos. We're doing another one

58:07

on March 30th at seven o'clock. They are so, tell

58:09

them how fun they are. It is the most fun.

58:11

I really look forward to it. We're also doing like virtual

58:13

happy hours. It's just a zoom hang. You can bring water

58:15

if you want. You can bring tea. It doesn't matter. We're

58:17

just hanging out with you. We're literally hanging out. We're going

58:20

to spotlight people and ask if we have like fun

58:22

get the party started questions. Yeah. Natalie's getting some

58:24

fun call game. It's going to be great. It's going

58:26

to be so fun. Also, I'm doing walk parties usually

58:28

on Sunday nights for the upcoming Patreon episode

58:30

that we, and basically like we all

58:32

go, we go three, two, one, we all hit play and then

58:34

we're in a chat and it's, there's hundreds of people and it's

58:36

so fun. And then at the end of it, I throw up

58:38

a zoom link and anybody who wants to come and like decompress

58:40

for 10 or 15 minutes, we do. We did

58:42

it the other night for the final episode of love is

58:44

one and it was so fun. It's

58:48

just, it's so, so, so much fun. So that

58:50

is open to anybody. You do not have to

58:52

be a patron. Just get in the Facebook group.

58:54

It's true crime obsessed podcast discussion group. Yeah. All

58:56

right, man. We love you. Bye. Bye. She

58:59

goes, of course, humiliating and harassing his wife with

59:01

pornography is not an admission of murder. I know.

59:03

I mean, I

59:09

feel like when Keith walked in with your copy

59:11

that he stayed up all night writing. You should

59:13

have looked at that line and said, I'm not

59:15

saying that girl. I don't mean to keep derailing

59:18

the conversation, but what is recently resurfaced on TikTok

59:20

is Bryant Gumble trying to figure out what the

59:22

internet is on the today show live on air.

59:24

It's wildly like, what was it? It wasn't brag

59:26

about Katie Kirk. It's like from the early nineties

59:28

and it's like the www dot and then like

59:30

the app symbol. Like they can't figure that out.

59:32

It's like live on air. Google it. It is

59:34

wild. I feel like something like that was in

59:36

the Beanie Baby

59:39

back. We did because they really took advantage of

59:42

the internet, like the Beanie Baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

59:44

yeah. They were able to find different things, but

59:46

I feel like the internet kind of launched the

59:48

whole Beanie Baby craze or vice versa or whatever.

59:50

Like remember the world before

59:52

the internet? No, not really. You know what I

59:54

mean? No. Like when you see

59:57

like video footage of New York city in the

59:59

eighties and people are just watching around looking at each

1:00:01

other and talking. Nick calls left and right. Stones are

1:00:03

ringing in apartments. I know. Or even

1:00:05

watching like the Golden Girls, there's not a computer

1:00:07

anywhere. No. You know what I

1:00:09

mean? They didn't even know what they were. No way.