0:01

What's up Columbus fam? Hey guess what?

0:04

I am making my triumphant return to

0:06

Columbus with the traveling book party on

0:08

Wednesday, March 13th, albeit the funny bone

0:10

Columbus at 7.30pm. So for anyone who

0:13

doesn't know, for the show I've taken

0:15

a chapter from my book and turned

0:17

it into a show with hilarious pictures

0:19

and video clips just like a TCO

0:22

live show. For those of you who've

0:24

read the book, it's chapter 2 all

0:26

about my high school drama club drama

0:28

and my first love, which I have

0:31

a major update on. The show is fun

0:33

and hilarious. It's about an hour long. After

0:35

the show, I stick around as long as

0:37

you all want me to to sign books,

0:39

to have drinks and just kind of hang

0:41

out. The night really just kind of turns

0:44

into a meetup. It's a super fun way

0:46

to meet other members of the TCO fam

0:48

in your area. I promise you, you will

0:50

have a good time. We will have books

0:52

available for purchase at the shows. So once

0:54

again Columbus fam, it's Wednesday, March 13th, 7.30pm

0:56

at the funny

0:59

bone Columbus. You can find all the

1:01

info and tickets at patrickfales.com and I

1:03

hope you'll come hang out with me.

1:06

Alright, now to the show. Hey

1:19

Jelene Pensavalli. Hello Patrick Hines. We

1:21

are here with a really exciting

1:23

thing. I'm really, really excited to

1:25

share this with you. So our

1:27

friend Julie Murray dropped the first

1:29

episode of her new podcast, Media

1:31

Pressure yesterday. And Julie and

1:33

I were given an advanced copy of

1:35

the first episode in preparation for doing

1:37

this interview. And I don't

1:40

even know what to say. And I said

1:42

this to Sour Attorney because it's on Sour

1:44

Attorney's network, Voices for Justice Media. It's a

1:46

game changer. The way it's done

1:48

and for Julie to be telling the story like

1:50

for victims families to be at the forefront of

1:52

the storytelling. It's excellent. In case you don't know

1:54

who Julie Murray is, she is the older sister

1:57

of Maura Murray who is one of the most

1:59

well-known missing persons. cases of our time.

2:01

Maura vanished in 2004 in New Hampshire.

2:03

She was driving north. We don't know

2:05

why she left her dorm in US

2:07

Amherst earlier today. And we don't know

2:10

why she was where she was when

2:12

she vanished, but she vanished truly without

2:14

a train. We've covered it.

2:16

There was the oxygen documentary that we

2:18

covered. There's countless podcasts specifically about the

2:20

case, but also like hundreds of other

2:22

podcasts that have covered it as a

2:24

one-off. And Julie, at Sarah's

2:27

urging, decided to take the

2:29

narrative back to tell the story the

2:31

way she thinks it should be told. This

2:33

episode is full of bombshells. If you know

2:36

the case, you are gonna hear things you've

2:38

never heard before, things that are true revelations

2:40

in the case. I mean, I was listening

2:42

to it at the office and Steve at

2:44

one point was like, saw my jaw on

2:47

the night. He was like, what are you

2:49

listening to? It's Julie's podcast. Yeah, it's excellent.

2:51

I cannot recommend it enough. This interview is

2:53

really fabulous and Julie is just such a

2:55

great person. So listen to this

2:57

episode. Go subscribe to Media Pressure right

3:00

now wherever you get your podcasts. Amazing job,

3:02

Julie. Amazing job, Sarah. Just like a thousand

3:04

million percent across the board. It's so good.

3:06

Thank you. And also thank you for making these.

3:12

Hi, Julie Murray. Hi, guys. Hey.

3:14

So here we are. I'm

3:17

excited. Julie, thank you so much. I think what you're doing is

3:19

incredible. We'll get into it, but this is like an honor for

3:21

both of us. So thank you and

3:24

thank you for giving me this opportunity. It's

3:27

amazing that people

3:30

have just heard the trailer and they

3:32

think that it's great. And so that

3:35

makes me so happy. Yeah. You know, I

3:37

was DMing with you a little bit yesterday because

3:40

you gave us the first episode of the podcast

3:42

to listen to. And I was

3:44

saying to you that I listen to everything. I'm one

3:46

of those people who is just obsessed with podcasts in

3:48

general. So I listen to every podcast that comes out

3:51

and I've launched a bunch of podcasts. I make

3:53

a bunch of podcasts and I am truly, Truly

3:57

blown away by media pressure.

4:00

Caf both just to in what you're

4:02

taking on and from the the little

4:04

bit I know about you personally it

4:06

what a big deal it is for

4:09

you to be doing math spread beyond

4:11

just the emotional part of that's technically

4:13

how well made the podcast isn't, how

4:15

incredible it sounds and the story, how

4:18

beautifully written it is and paste and

4:20

it is just like some start to

4:22

finish episode wine my jaw I was

4:24

listening to it in the office i'm

4:27

headphones and my husband at one point

4:29

was like. What is going on? His

4:31

and I took stock of my face

4:33

and my jaw was like on the

4:35

floor at some was like the revelations

4:37

in episode one. So congratulations on what

4:39

I think it's gonna be a masterpiece

4:41

of a podcast. Yeah. As a game center

4:43

for sure, that's the word I keep coming back to

4:45

as A games into. Yeah.

4:48

Thank you so much! You know you

4:50

guys full pads. Are you know me?

4:52

I'm awkward and interviewer had an answer.

4:56

To this is a big step

4:58

outside my comfort zone and. I

5:01

had no idea what I was getting

5:03

into when I told sarah attorney who.

5:05

You know this is her vision

5:07

Seem to does victims and family

5:10

members a platform to kind take

5:12

back their stories and I immediately

5:14

said yes absolutely before knowing what

5:16

goes into it. And I have

5:18

all the time and effort and.

5:21

That on top of how emotional it

5:23

is for me because you know it's

5:26

me telling my lived experience and going

5:28

through this tragedy and so. Yeah.

5:31

Was a lot. Since it's so

5:33

funny because I know obviously your sisters

5:35

case and I know what you've shared

5:37

about your family. but in general you're

5:39

pretty private and so it was kind

5:41

of. I had skills the saints of

5:44

new information just about your life and

5:46

you know, for example of Christmas when

5:48

you saw more. Our last you had

5:50

been gone for a year and now

5:52

really the eyes of my sisters and

5:54

military services. Okay, for twenty years and

5:57

years of that I didn't see her

5:59

and we. You're for holidays, use a

6:01

moment that you talk about enough having

6:03

been in South Korea for a year

6:05

and then your back for Christmas and

6:07

that's the first time he saw your

6:09

family and morass in a year. and

6:11

then you said and it would be

6:14

the last time you would see her

6:16

and it really hit me and so

6:18

I you know I'm curious about. When

6:21

you know you talk about the precious

6:23

memories that you have that are just

6:25

yours and how so much of your

6:27

family story has been. take him and

6:29

shared with the world sort of without

6:31

your permission and I'm just curious about

6:33

how hard it was freed to decide

6:35

what to share and then actually giving

6:37

up those last few precious memories that

6:39

you have. Was. The

6:42

main thing was. I've

6:44

done hundreds of podcasts as

6:46

you know, so many interviews,

6:48

all different. Formats vehicles

6:50

and every time I do

6:52

an interview. You. Know I'm

6:54

telling my experience and and the facts

6:56

of the case but it always goes

6:58

through somebody elses filter. Rates

7:01

and said this was an

7:03

opportunity for me to. Put.

7:06

It through my own seltzer and so

7:08

I felt comfortable. Sharing some

7:10

of those. Really? Vulnerable

7:12

person, old memories. Because

7:15

it. Gives. A better

7:17

look into both. My sister

7:19

Mara says humanity has been

7:21

stripped away an artist coverage.

7:24

And also a glimpse into what it's

7:26

like to be me. And so in

7:28

order to really tell that story, I

7:30

had to open up a little bit

7:32

and I had to get a little

7:34

personal and a little vulnerable. Because

7:37

the point is to. Shed

7:39

some light on who we are as

7:41

humans and you can't do that. It's

7:43

you're not willing to be vulnerable, so

7:45

that wasn't easy. But

7:48

I'm glad that I did that. and I'm glad

7:50

it had the effect that I was going for.

7:53

And you saying that so I appreciate it. Did

7:55

you find strength and that and being vulnerable

7:57

in order to take your story? Back and.

8:00

That power back. Absolutely

8:02

absolutely. And that's another reason you

8:04

know being able to put it

8:06

through my own selter for the

8:08

first time ever was so and

8:11

packed full. It was so therapeutic,

8:13

it was cathartic. And you know,

8:15

the analogy that I like to

8:18

use is it was like resetting

8:20

a bone fracture. In

8:22

ah. It's. Hurt. In

8:25

the process. But. It was

8:27

necessary for proper ceiling and that's

8:29

how I feel right now. It's

8:31

like. Yeah, that was really tough.

8:34

To. Go through that and

8:36

share those vulnerable, personal memories And

8:38

also sit across. From my dad

8:41

and my drone brothers. Weeping.

8:43

Like all of us just crying in

8:46

bomb. But at the end of that,

8:48

you know it was this big sigh

8:50

of relief. So it's. It's.

8:52

Been amazing. One

8:55

of the ways to one of the many

8:57

many ways I'm sure we're going to find

8:59

out the you succeeded in you're missing. Here

9:02

is that More Eyes personality really comes through.

9:04

You know I have sisters and I have

9:06

also been a brother. Taking my sister to

9:08

the airports to go off for a long

9:11

deployment and you tell this great stories about

9:13

how she worse. I mean to me, you're

9:15

really tough year The Cross That Queen assessor

9:17

you know, slake. I think of you as

9:20

just like really tough but you're describing being

9:22

in the car and sort of getting teary

9:24

eyed. When when more and your dad

9:26

vertically to the airport and morris as you

9:29

are you really fry eggs and I smelt

9:31

like I could really hear her voice and

9:33

sleep with that top not and like I

9:35

can make really get her personality and in

9:38

all the podcast I've listened to about her

9:40

and although you know the own coverage that

9:42

we've done on the case it was the

9:44

first time ever I saw at I could

9:47

hear her voice. you know yes and that's

9:49

what I I tried to sprinkle in some

9:51

of the. Language. That

9:53

she would use. So you know, I

9:55

have a ton hundreds of letters that

9:57

Mara wrote me and I reviewed some.

10:00

It was an i tried

10:02

to use some of the

10:04

language that she actually use

10:06

and you know calling me

10:08

that's cakes and you know

10:10

something utterly smack talk that's

10:12

that's really Humar was and

10:14

that is definitely something that.

10:16

I miss the most. Well that's a

10:18

conversation like with your dad and your

10:20

brothers to get them involved and thus

10:23

where they. Apprehensive,

10:26

Well, my older brother Freddie, Freddie

10:28

Junior. He's never done any. Yeah,

10:30

I both. Interview. Maybe

10:32

like a few. News local news

10:35

interviews early on but she's not

10:37

been in the spotlight and he's

10:39

again were all into first so

10:41

he just wanted to do a

10:43

that's another say that he's not

10:45

very active and everything that goes

10:47

on. You know we talk about.

10:49

What leads are pursuing an approach is

10:51

ever going take but for him to

10:53

agree to sit down? Say you know

10:55

what? I'm part of this

10:58

story. I so comfortable enough with Julie.

11:00

I trust her. That. Was

11:02

huge and then my little brother

11:04

Kurt as he's just a sweet

11:06

angel and you know I every

11:08

time I listen back to some

11:10

of the episodes and I've listened

11:12

to them hundreds upon you know

11:14

to edit me and allow you

11:16

to take myself as. Healthy

11:19

as he says he has no

11:21

see as well. I cry. All

11:23

a leisurely welcome welcome. Aboard the

11:25

Iss I'm like I said in another

11:28

better why they say it like that

11:30

on my sides said. Every

11:32

time a listener my brother Curtis hit

11:35

the you know he's just so authentic

11:37

and so raw it just makes me

11:39

cry and I'm. If.

11:41

Course my dad it as know my

11:43

dad at it was hard to. Put.

11:46

Guard rails on him because he

11:48

has the so much energy and

11:50

so much she wants to say

11:52

So in his interview I would

11:54

have to hit pause like every

11:57

minute like Dad A say on

11:59

Friday. Ikea

12:01

with that in the. Morning,

12:04

I just want to get it off my chest

12:06

and so as soon as the and I was

12:08

just not hitting pause and I'm just like let

12:11

him go none. Of this is gonna make it

12:13

super. Yachts he is. He also hasn't

12:15

had an opportunity to, you know,

12:17

tell his full story and experience

12:19

and. It

12:21

was great. You know? I sat with my dad for eight

12:24

hours. Dow matter so I

12:26

appeal for all of you. It

12:28

it it really adds. Yeah, Snow

12:31

in and we go through the whole. Roller

12:34

coaster of emotions in our laughing

12:36

or crying were serious. We're talking

12:39

smack and everything in between. So

12:41

it was as good to bring

12:43

us together and have this common

12:46

goal and project that we all

12:48

contributed to. And so for that

12:50

I'm I'm super proud. You

12:53

definitely say right at the top that

12:55

you're not a podcast are professional storyteller.

12:57

It's not true Snyder anger is not

12:59

something you be Thomas, It's something you

13:01

discover that you are Ss and you

13:03

do. You are See Podcasting I think

13:05

is the most glorious art form. Enjoy

13:07

like you have a real gift for

13:09

it's and one of the things I

13:11

was going to say about it is.

13:14

The. Storytelling do so so much to

13:16

Morris Or and your family story. It's

13:18

more than I can even imagine that

13:21

you all know I'm just amongst yourselves.

13:23

Yet your scripts at least from some

13:25

one is so clear. It's so concise

13:28

but person all and I'm just wondering

13:30

how you were able to take it

13:32

and cut through the noise and like

13:35

decide what was really important, focus on

13:37

and in what order. Yeah

13:40

that Dallas tough. But what I

13:42

will say is I am a

13:44

much better writer than I am

13:46

verbal communicator which is kind of

13:48

ironic. that

13:51

home soon as a season one

13:53

so the writing and kind of

13:55

putting the outlines together and picking

13:58

out what type of stories really

14:00

shed some light on who the people

14:02

that are most affected by this tragedy

14:05

really are. That was easy.

14:07

The hard part was like you said, okay,

14:10

where do I start? And so I

14:12

opted to start kind of in the

14:15

middle. Like, so I start on February

14:17

9th, well, 10th. And then the

14:20

other episodes will take us all the way back to

14:22

the beginning and then kind of sort of

14:25

go chronologically, which is really hard

14:27

because, you know, I've

14:30

been in this for 20 years. So there's so

14:32

much to cover. I could easily

14:34

have filled up 50 episodes,

14:37

but I had

14:39

to pick out what was most important

14:41

and pick out some of the things

14:43

that had just been shrouded

14:46

in misinformation and wild

14:48

speculation and kind of drill down on those,

14:51

as well as trying to make it

14:53

an engaging story. So yeah,

14:56

the writing part, that was a piece

14:58

of cake, but it was whittling it

15:00

down to, okay, how

15:04

do I keep this flowing? And so that

15:06

was hard, but I

15:09

enjoyed that part. The part that I did not

15:11

enjoy was recording in

15:14

the closet by myself. You know, because I

15:16

just recorded in my closet by myself. And,

15:19

you know, there's so many mess

15:21

ups that I did. And I

15:25

honestly never want to go back in that

15:27

closet again. It's always

15:31

like talking to a new parent, you know,

15:33

because I like having a kid, I'm like,

15:35

Oh, right, these are the growing pains of

15:37

like, these are the things you like about

15:40

parenting. Yes, a little like, Oh,

15:42

the closet era. But even

15:45

but Julie, like,

15:47

it's so easy to follow.

15:49

It is so accessible. All

15:52

of your intentions come through, but also

15:54

like little things like my nerd heart,

15:56

like going into the phone filter while

15:59

you're talking. about something, there are little moments

16:01

like that that just make me go like, yes,

16:04

like, yeah, yeah, it adds

16:06

to the storytelling without taking away from your

16:08

writing and you and you putting your you

16:11

can hear your heart and soul in it.

16:13

But little things like that, that really does

16:16

so much to the listener and especially

16:18

just for me who has a lot

16:20

of I have a lot of trouble

16:22

keeping focus on things that aren't visual

16:24

because of my ADHD and it's little

16:26

things like that that keep me totally

16:29

locked in. So you have it, you're

16:31

doing it all right, like you're taking

16:33

every box. Oh,

16:35

thank you so much. Yeah.

16:38

The other thing about the podcast is that it is full

16:41

of bombshells. Like, I hope this question comes

16:43

out the way I mean it. Like, are

16:45

you so in the case that maybe you're

16:47

not aware of like what we would perceive

16:49

as a total bombshell? Yeah,

16:52

I mean, I'm I'm I live it every day. I mean,

16:54

I I have so much in my notebooks

16:57

in my head that I just assume

17:00

everybody knows and there are some things

17:02

that I do drop in the podcast

17:04

that no one's I know that

17:06

no one's ever heard. And there's still

17:09

so much that I'm not able to

17:11

share, just because, you know,

17:13

of course, I would never want to

17:15

jeopardize my sister's investigation. And yeah, sure,

17:17

I'm not something that is

17:19

going to be worth, you know, getting a few extra

17:21

clicks over. But yeah, my intentions

17:24

are to find my sister. And

17:26

so that was,

17:28

you know, the goal

17:30

with this. And so I didn't want to

17:32

cross that line. But I was happy to

17:34

share some some things that I haven't shared

17:36

before. And also some people

17:38

that have never spoken before. I

17:40

was just going to say two

17:43

words, Kate Markopoulos. Yep. And

17:45

so people have kind of run

17:48

her across the coals online

17:51

because they said she hasn't come

17:53

out and said anything.

17:55

Well, that's not true, because every

17:57

time that I talk to Kate

17:59

and And I've been in contact with Kate for 20 years. And

18:04

she answers every question that I

18:06

have ever had. She may

18:08

not remember everything, but she's very

18:10

forthcoming. And when I

18:13

approached her about the project, she was

18:15

like, absolutely. And then she put a

18:17

caveat. She said, you're the only person

18:19

that I would do this for. Right.

18:23

So having that access to these people

18:25

that are so critical in the story,

18:27

not only helps tell

18:29

the full story, but

18:31

it also helps kind of eliminate

18:33

all of that speculation

18:35

about Kate. Like she's

18:38

not this person that's unwilling to help

18:40

my family. She's very willing and always

18:42

has been. I just didn't feel

18:44

comfortable like making a tweet about, hey, you just

18:46

got an email from Kate. Of

18:48

course. I'm not the person that'll do that. But

18:51

when she agrees to sit with me knowing that

18:53

this is going to go public, I

18:55

mean, I was just so thrilled about that. I

18:58

think that is so important because it

19:01

speaks to this sort of level of

19:03

entitlement that people who are

19:05

consuming this content have. Like it's really none

19:07

of their business, the conversations that you're having

19:09

with people. And if they want to speculate

19:11

who and how and why and what, it

19:14

doesn't matter. And it's really not fair to

19:17

the people who are involved. So I think

19:19

it's really amazing how you've handled it. And

19:21

I think it's very telling that she

19:23

is speaking and she's speaking to you. Yeah.

19:27

Yeah. There are other

19:29

people that I reached out to

19:31

who just totally ghosted me and

19:33

no response, no respectfully

19:35

decline, no acknowledgement of

19:37

my request. They

19:42

just totally ghosted me, which is

19:44

odd. And I talk about that in the

19:46

podcast a little bit. But to

19:49

have Kate's trust in this was huge. Yeah.

19:52

So one of the things I thought was so

19:54

interesting was you said that, and I didn't know

19:57

this, that Cecil Smith had taken, he was the

19:59

first officer on... the scene and he had

20:01

taken pictures. And you say in the podcast

20:03

that the pictures had never been released, but

20:05

you've seen them. So I'm wondering if you

20:07

could talk about A, how you got access

20:09

to them and B, if there's anything that

20:11

stood out to you in the pictures. Yeah,

20:15

it's a great question. You know, I

20:18

knew that there was pictures taken the

20:20

night of on February 9. And

20:23

I had asked law enforcement multiple times,

20:25

Hey, can I see these pictures? And

20:28

it was always like, you know, maybe later now

20:30

is not the time, you know, blah, blah, blah.

20:33

And if you

20:35

follow the case, you know that my

20:37

family's relationship with law enforcement was a

20:39

little rocky there at the beginning. And

20:41

my dad sued the state of New

20:43

Hampshire to get the case files released

20:45

and you know, nothing was released under

20:49

FOIA. But I was able to

20:51

build some rapport with law enforcement

20:53

and kind of gain their trust.

20:56

And there was one meeting where,

20:58

you know, I asked

21:00

them to see the photos and they

21:03

agreed. And so I saw

21:05

those photos, I saw seven photos. They

21:09

weren't the actual photo. Well,

21:11

they were printed out photos

21:13

on paper. So it

21:15

was, yeah, it wasn't the best quality, but

21:17

I was able to see the content of

21:19

what was in them. And

21:21

to be honest with you, my

21:23

question back to law enforcement was,

21:25

why haven't these been released? Because

21:27

what I saw in the

21:30

photos wasn't anything that I

21:32

believe would jeopardize the

21:34

case. And it was

21:37

kind of more of the same well, you

21:39

know, people online and the trolls and blah,

21:41

you know, the whole, the

21:43

whole spiel that they give. So

21:46

no one else has ever seen those photos,

21:48

not even anybody else in my family. Wow.

21:52

Yeah. And there was nothing in

21:54

them that stood out to you as like important? Well,

21:56

there was a there was a couple things

21:59

that stood out. out. One

22:01

was the way that the

22:03

tire tracks went into this

22:05

sort of ravine, I call

22:07

it a ditch, and

22:10

then kind of backed out at an angle.

22:12

So it looked like the car went into

22:14

the ditch and then it backed out. But

22:17

in the photo, there's a clear piece

22:19

of it where it shows road debris.

22:22

And so that makes it, to

22:25

me, I believe that it was

22:27

from the tires kind of rotating,

22:29

spinning up the sand and the

22:31

salt on the road. So there

22:33

was, it's evident from

22:36

the photo that the car was

22:38

able to be extracted from that

22:40

ditch, which leads

22:43

to the question of, well, why didn't

22:45

she just drive away? Because obviously the

22:47

car was drivable. And we found out

22:49

on Friday after the disappearance that my

22:51

dad started the car right up and

22:53

he could move it a little bit

22:55

forward and backwards. So

22:57

that leads down a whole

23:00

nother rabbit hole. But that was interesting. The

23:02

other thing that was interesting was some of

23:04

the photos looks like they were taken from

23:06

within the car. Yep.

23:09

But the responding officer said he never

23:11

gained access to the car that night.

23:14

And so I asked on for us when

23:16

I'm like, these pictures look like they're in

23:18

the car. Like, no big deal that my

23:20

sister's missing. It doesn't matter whether you access

23:22

the car or not. But the

23:26

story that they told was they did not access

23:29

the car until the next day. So I'm like,

23:31

well, who cares? Right.

23:33

So I don't get that. I

23:36

just wanted to ask, I don't know if this is even the right time,

23:38

but what do you think

23:40

could have helped like early on in the

23:42

investigation if it was done differently? Yeah, a

23:45

lot of things. I think the

23:48

relationship with law enforcement should have

23:50

been more cooperative at

23:52

the beginning because my family had a

23:54

lot to share. And they didn't,

23:58

law enforcement didn't even interview. interview me at

24:01

all. No, zero interview. And so

24:03

I'm like, I'm your sister. I just talked to

24:05

her on Saturday. Why wouldn't you

24:07

interview me? I could have told you that she never

24:09

wore the gloves that you're using for this sense situation.

24:12

Exactly. And I was

24:14

down at Fort Bragg because I was in the army.

24:17

So I wasn't able to come up for an interview,

24:19

but I had a phone. Yeah.

24:21

So that was a huge missed opportunity. The

24:24

other thing is, and something I talk about

24:26

in the podcast is this idea that you

24:28

need to wait 24 hours

24:30

to report a missing person. Yeah.

24:33

That makes me crazy. It makes no

24:35

sense. So when you look at Mara's case, you've

24:37

got an out of state vehicle, abandoned

24:39

on the side of the road in a

24:41

dark location. On a freezing

24:43

cold night. Yeah, it was

24:46

like 20 something degrees. This young

24:48

woman is not here, and

24:50

we're gonna just go to sleep and wait

24:52

on it. I mean, that makes no sense

24:54

to me because that window of opportunity was

24:56

totally lost. The first search for Mara wasn't

24:58

until 36 hours later when

25:01

the trail was cold. So from the

25:03

jump, it

25:05

was just not taken as seriously as

25:08

we would have liked. Right. One

25:10

of the other things that you were able to see

25:12

that I don't think the public has seen is the

25:14

search warrant for the car being towed. I mean, this

25:16

was the moment where my husband looked at me and

25:18

was like, what are you listening to? Because

25:20

what you learned from that search warrant was that

25:22

there were several items in the car, seven, I

25:25

think you said, that had Mara's name on it.

25:27

So they knew early on who the likely driver

25:29

was. To me, that what

25:31

even bigger revelation in that moment

25:33

was that there was a person's name and phone

25:35

number written on a piece of paper who lived

25:39

near Loon Mountain, which is

25:41

one of the areas where Mara was searching for rental

25:43

properties, and you found out that the police never contacted

25:45

that person. So how did you get

25:47

to see that search warrant? And I believe that you

25:49

said that you did make contact with that person. Can

25:51

you just sort of talk about that? Yeah,

25:54

well, in researching and fact-checking myself for

25:56

the podcast, because even though I... been

26:00

in it and I can rattle off

26:02

timelines and numbers and facts. Sometimes I

26:04

forget some stuff. So I

26:07

interviewed an attorney that helped my family

26:10

early on and his name

26:12

is Terry O'Connell. And he gave me his

26:14

whole box of files. And

26:16

so I'm just looking through the

26:18

files and I come across this

26:21

warrant that I have never seen before.

26:23

Oh, wow. And it just blew

26:25

me away. And so I'm going through

26:28

the warrant and this

26:30

warrant was executed on Tuesday and

26:33

when they were trying to identify the

26:35

driver. And so there's a ton

26:37

of stuff listed in some of the items

26:40

I don't talk about in the podcast just because

26:43

it's not appropriate. But

26:45

one of the things was

26:47

a handwritten name and number. And

26:50

I'm like, well, of course

26:52

they called this name and number. Of

26:54

course. Right. Of course. Of course. And

26:57

so I dialed the number. I'm just

26:59

like, well, I'm just going to dial

27:01

this number. So I dialed the number.

27:03

It was a landline. It was disconnected.

27:05

So then I got some friends and

27:07

all. They would get some background reports.

27:09

And so I was able to contact

27:12

the owner of the number on

27:16

their new number, if that makes

27:18

sense. Yeah. And I'm just like,

27:20

hey, Julie Murray, this

27:23

number associated with your family was found in my

27:25

sister, Maura's car. Do you

27:28

know why? And they

27:30

were just so

27:32

confused and they told me. Did they know

27:34

the case? They knew the case,

27:37

but not at first when I

27:39

said I was Julie Murray. And then they're

27:41

like, we didn't know that.

27:43

No one's ever contacted

27:46

us. So that person contacted

27:48

his parents. And again,

27:51

they are like, no one's ever called

27:53

us. And I was just blown away.

27:55

I was like, are you kidding me?

27:57

Yeah. Yeah. Because they know how to rental property. at

28:00

Loon, right? Loon Mountain? Yeah, well,

28:03

there was a number of weird coincidences. And

28:05

like I say in the podcast,

28:08

I'm not saying that there's anything

28:10

nefarious or suspicious about this, but,

28:14

you know, they should have been

28:16

contacted by law enforcement. Right, at the

28:18

very least. Yeah. At the very least,

28:20

yeah. And so, yeah, they owned a

28:22

conduit Loon Mountain, which was in the

28:24

direction Mara was traveling. They

28:27

were from our hometown of Hanson. They

28:31

had ties to law enforcement. They

28:33

had ties to Burlington, which was

28:35

also a location Mara was looking

28:37

up. So it was just like

28:40

so many different coincidences,

28:42

maybe. And I

28:45

just didn't even know what to do. I just kind

28:47

of sat there for like an hour, like, what

28:49

is this? And

28:52

nobody has any memory of knowing her

28:54

or ever having had a conversation with

28:56

her. Well, that's the thing.

28:58

They didn't have memory of her. Oh,

29:01

they did. They knew Mara. Yeah. How?

29:04

They like actually knew her in real life. Yeah.

29:07

And the guy that I talked to was my

29:09

classmate in middle school. Oh, my God. Like

29:11

we knew the family. And

29:14

we played softball together. And, you know,

29:16

my family's all sporty. So we played

29:18

every sport. So from a small

29:21

town, if you're an athlete, you know,

29:23

all the other athletes. So he knew exactly who I was.

29:25

You know exactly who Mara was. And

29:28

it was just so

29:31

frustrating that there was that huge missed opportunity.

29:33

Because of course, talking to them 19

29:35

years later, they're not going to remember anything.

29:38

But if they had

29:40

been called, you know, that week

29:42

or that month or even that year,

29:44

we could have at least said,

29:46

OK, this has nothing to do with it. But

29:48

now it's like, well, what if? Yeah, it's

29:51

still like this grayness to it, which is

29:53

what I talk about in

29:55

the podcast a lot. It's like

29:57

everything has this like dark gray

29:59

cloud. because nothing is cut

30:02

and dry. It's interesting because

30:04

it makes me think about your TikTok. So your

30:06

TikTok is amazing. If you're not following Julie Moran

30:08

TikTok, you must be. You have to. It's

30:11

very much centered around the case and

30:13

your sister. But one of your recent

30:15

TikToks, you were saying that you were

30:17

happy to report that your relationship, your

30:20

family's relationship with law enforcement was drastically

30:22

improved based on this email exchange. Can

30:24

you talk a little bit about that? You

30:26

don't have to give any super personal details about

30:29

what was exchanged, but like

30:31

what changed? A

30:33

lot has changed. So there's

30:35

been change out in personnel

30:37

at the attorney general's office

30:40

and the investigators. So

30:42

some of the older investigators that

30:44

were on the case for decades

30:46

or at least a decade are

30:48

now retired. And so they've

30:50

got new fresh eyes and new

30:52

ways of approaching these cold cases.

30:55

And I met with

30:57

them back in November the

30:59

head of the cold case unit and the

31:01

assistant attorney general. And

31:03

it was the most cooperative,

31:06

collaborative meeting that

31:09

I've ever had. And so as part of my

31:11

follow-up, I, of course, being a military

31:14

person, I documented every little thing

31:16

that was discussed and did it

31:18

in writing. So we have a

31:20

paper drill. And

31:22

I was following up on some

31:24

of those action items and the

31:26

chief of the head of the

31:28

cold case unit responded with the

31:30

most empathetic email I have ever

31:33

received in 20 full years. Wow.

31:36

And I felt like a human. I

31:38

felt like a person. I didn't feel

31:40

like a case number. Yeah.

31:43

That just blew me away because that is

31:45

all that we've ever asked for. I'm not

31:47

asking or demanding, hey, I need to see

31:49

this and you need to answer to this.

31:51

I just wanna be treated with empathy. And

31:53

of course, empathy

31:56

is huge for me and I talk a

31:58

lot about it and how there's... a

32:01

lack of it in true crime, as

32:03

well as in my dealings with

32:06

law enforcement. And so to receive

32:08

that was just so

32:10

comforting and it makes me happy because

32:12

I think this

32:14

case is solvable and I do want

32:17

to contribute and help law enforcement and

32:19

not be so adversarial. And I think

32:21

that's where we're going with this new

32:23

set of staff

32:26

up there. Will we

32:28

hear from law enforcement on the podcast? Unfortunately,

32:31

no. I

32:34

tried, but they're

32:36

New Hampshire and it's not their

32:38

thing really. Will

32:41

we hear from Bill Rauch? I

32:43

did consult and ask him

32:45

some questions, but you won't hear his voice on

32:48

the podcast now. Got it. How many

32:50

episodes can we expect? I hope please say 100.

32:55

It could have easily been 100, but

32:57

it is eight episodes

33:00

and then there'll be a bonus

33:02

episode where I'll answer listener questions,

33:04

which I expect may turn into

33:07

a couple episodes because there are

33:09

still so many questions. And

33:12

some of the content that I'm presenting

33:14

for the first time is going to

33:16

hopefully get people talking. And so I'm

33:18

happy to answer any questions that I can. So

33:22

eight formal episodes

33:24

for season one and then we'll see where

33:26

it goes after that. I

33:29

just have to say, as a member

33:31

of the true crime

33:33

community, I'm so grateful to you

33:35

and Sarah for doing this. The

33:38

families getting involved is so wonderful.

33:43

And I mean, I speak for us, but I'm sure

33:45

for other creators that if there's anything, any way that

33:47

we can be helpful, if there's anything we can do.

33:50

We are here. We want to help. We

33:52

want to amplify your podcast and the story and the

33:54

new information any way we can. Well,

33:57

thank you so much for that. And Can we just take.

34:00

The man to talk about Sarah turning?

34:02

Yeah. oh My. God. I was reminded

34:04

I was imagining Rob. Actually, so yes,

34:06

yeah. So a little backstory. I did.

34:09

it's a dog on this. but. You.

34:11

Know Sarah approached me and at

34:13

the time I thought that it

34:16

was a crazy wild idea that

34:18

she was saying what do you

34:20

think, don't answer it now about

34:22

as where do you think about

34:24

doing a podcast until He Mars

34:26

Story and I was like. What's.

34:30

You know, this isn't my thing.

34:32

Had you not considered ever making

34:34

something of your own. For. For

34:36

this. Not. Really?

34:38

be as. I am so much

34:41

still involved in the investigation. part of

34:43

their began. Yeah, you know you have

34:45

to realize Mars still missing an hour,

34:47

still actively trying to find or and

34:49

so that's been kind of my general

34:52

focus and that on top of trying

34:54

to get awareness out there by social

34:56

media and and doing other podcasts. But

34:58

I think Julian, you know in the

35:00

back of my mind I thought yeah

35:03

would be cool if I can tell

35:05

the story but I never. Thought

35:07

of. How that

35:09

could happen? So you know I

35:12

I couldn't just by a micro.

35:14

I mean I guess I could

35:16

have just bought a microphone and

35:19

just recorded but it was. Sarah

35:21

gave me the confidence and gave

35:23

me the idea and it was

35:26

her vision that was like i

35:28

think what's missing and true crime

35:30

is the family perspective. And servers

35:32

and of the people that knew.

35:35

The. Victims the most. And like I

35:37

said at the beginning their perspectives

35:39

are a. Cell. Third, John.

35:42

I'm. And so this

35:44

is a wade said to

35:46

get the Ansel version and

35:48

so I agreed and see.

35:51

Taught. Me the ropes because I had no

35:53

clue what the hell I was saying. You

35:55

know I didn't. I didn't know

35:57

anything at all. that she taught me

36:00

and she kind of gave me the confidence that I

36:02

could do it. And

36:04

here we are. Yeah, she's

36:06

a force of nature. I remember meeting her

36:09

in New Orleans at CrimeCon like

36:11

many, many, many years ago. Yeah, it was the first

36:13

time we went to CrimeCon and she was

36:15

just, yeah, she was amazing, even then. Just

36:18

like a quiet, sweet soul who like

36:20

is just bursting at the seams to

36:22

tell stories and to help families and

36:24

to get victims stories told, you know,

36:26

in the right proper empathetic way. So

36:29

it is a great joy to see

36:31

you all entering the world

36:34

of podcasting and doing it

36:36

like on your own terms and in your own

36:38

way. And it's, you know, if episode one is

36:40

any barometer of what is to

36:42

come in this series, it is, you

36:45

know, these things happen at the right time, I think.

36:47

And it seems like you waited the right amount of

36:49

time to really be able to process it and tell

36:51

your story exactly the way that you want to. And

36:53

exactly, it's just tremendous what you've

36:55

done. I'm truly in awe of it. Thank

36:58

you. I mean, you say

37:01

that Sarah is sweet and, you

37:03

know, unassuming, but she's tenacious. She's

37:05

a bad relentless. And

37:08

so to be able to team up

37:10

with somebody like her who, and

37:14

she's incredibly intelligent and

37:17

driven. And so

37:19

I'm just so happy that I've

37:21

been able to make those connections with

37:23

other family members who are doing, are

37:25

trying to do the same thing that

37:27

I'm doing, because it makes you

37:30

feel like you're not alone. Because a lot

37:32

of the times I'm by myself going through

37:34

police logs and whatever and just feeling sorry

37:36

for myself. And then you've got someone like

37:38

Sarah Turney come on and like, we

37:41

can do this, we can use this opportunity. We

37:43

can, you know, leverage social media. And

37:46

now we can make a whole network

37:48

dedicated to giving families

37:50

agency back to their stories. Yes.

37:53

I was just thinking that I'm hoping that this

37:55

will inspire more families to tell their stories in

37:57

this way because it, podcasting is such a power.

38:00

medium, you know. And you know,

38:02

Mars is season one. So

38:05

media pressure has a lot more in store.

38:07

I heard that when you said like, this

38:09

will be season one. I was like, oh, I know what that

38:12

means. I know that.

38:14

Julie, I wanted to ask you, do

38:16

you have just thoughts about how, whether

38:18

you're a creator or a consumer of

38:20

this genre, for lack of a better

38:22

term, like how to keep true crime

38:24

ethical moving forward? Yes,

38:26

I do. I thought

38:29

you might. Yes, I do. So

38:32

when I was looking at this

38:34

and feeling the effects of the

38:37

misinformation and the re-traumatization and

38:39

you know, all that goes

38:41

into other people taking

38:44

somebody's story, somebody they've never met

38:46

and telling it. The main thing

38:48

that I saw was there's a lack of empathy.

38:50

So that's what was the catalyst

38:52

for me to start the engage with

38:54

empathy campaign. And I made this quick

38:56

little acronym called

38:59

CARE, that for

39:01

me, it was what's missing in

39:03

true crime. And so centering the

39:05

victim, avoiding harmful

39:07

speculation, researching responsibly, and

39:10

engaging with empathy. I think if

39:13

we use that as a guide, as

39:15

both creators and consumers, we're going to

39:17

make this space a little bit better

39:19

for those suffering. Yeah, that

39:22

is like so well put and so easy

39:24

to remember. You know what I mean? Not

39:26

necessarily like easy to immediately put into practice,

39:28

but it's like, it's a practice we can

39:31

practice every day and get better at. Yeah,

39:33

in all aspects. Yeah. And even if

39:35

you don't know what the C-A-R-E is, it's still

39:37

CARE. Just CARE. Just be kidding. Just,

39:39

just CARE. Just be a decent

39:42

human. Is really all we're asking.

39:44

Just be decent. And

39:46

you know, I have not heard a

39:48

single argument against why

39:50

we shouldn't be empathetic. Yeah,

39:53

right. And if you hear one, let

39:55

me know, because to date, you know,

39:57

there's no reason not to. Yeah. No

40:00

reason. Yeah, I wanted to

40:02

ask you a little bit like to explain that

40:04

Oh, maybe it feels like it doesn't need explanation

40:06

but when you say be empathetic do you mean

40:08

be empathetic in the storytelling or be empathetic in

40:10

Deciding whether or not to reach out to a

40:12

family or sort of like can you explain it

40:15

like give us a little bit more bullet Points

40:17

on exactly how to be more empathetic Yeah,

40:20

I mean, it's just the simple answer is

40:22

put yourself in somebody

40:24

else's shoes so put yourself in my

40:26

shoes and how I feel

40:28

when you decide to post

40:31

some content that is not

40:34

victim-centered or that is a half-truth

40:38

or that doesn't

40:40

do anything to further the case

40:43

so I'm very big on if

40:45

this information as unflattering

40:47

or You

40:49

know Bad it may

40:51

sound if it furthers the case I'm all

40:54

for it because guess what Mara's still missing.

40:56

So who am I to say we shouldn't

40:58

talk about XYZ? But

41:01

if it's something that has

41:03

no journalistic purpose ie

41:06

rumor speculation and Does

41:09

nothing to further the case then what

41:11

are we doing? Why are we talking

41:13

about that? And the

41:16

simple answer is because it's salacious

41:18

and it is gonna generate clicks

41:21

Because people want to be entertained

41:23

by my tragedy and that's

41:25

just not acceptable And what you're seeing

41:28

now in true crime is people are

41:30

rejecting that type of content and

41:32

I'd love to see that if

41:34

the story should be about furthering the

41:37

case if you're covering a case

41:39

and it has nothing to do with getting

41:41

to answers then It's

41:44

just hurting people Yeah,

41:47

yes. Yes Well

41:50

Julie, thank you for this interview. Thank you for making

41:52

time for us It is a great joy to get

41:54

to talk to you every thank you or a couple

41:56

of years It's amazing to hear

41:58

your dad's voice just hearing

42:00

his voice in the podcast because it comes

42:03

with no introduction it is just so like

42:06

That man is a force of nature you

42:08

say he's like so energetic and I get

42:10

energy just by hearing him speak Yeah, so

42:12

it's you know really amazing and and thank

42:14

you for sharing your story. Yeah. Thank

42:17

you so much for giving me this

42:19

opportunity to talk about it, and I'm just hoping

42:21

that other

42:23

people enjoy it as much as you do and You

42:27

know like I said it was it's not perfect But

42:30

it's true. It's the truth.

42:32

It's a game changer. This is a turning point.

42:34

I'm saying it I firmly believe it so thank

42:36

you so much I'm I know Whether

42:39

it's sitting in the closet or digging up things that were

42:41

hard to talk about it was it was a lot for

42:43

you to Put out there, so thank you for sharing

42:46

that because I really think it's gonna be

42:48

a major Much-needed

42:50

shift so thank you for for

42:52

doing that Yeah, of

42:54

course. I think so too. Yeah Thanks

42:57

Julie. Thank you. Thank you Oh,

43:09

thank you for listening to our interview

43:11

with Julie Murray go go go and

43:14

subscribe to media pressure right now I

43:16

am waiting with truly baited breath for

43:18

the next episode I you

43:20

know Julie is such an intensely private person

43:22

the amount of personal Information and stories that

43:24

she's sharing here is a real Testament

43:28

to how much she wants the story to be

43:30

told she as she said in the interview she

43:32

believes this case is solvable Yep, so go subscribe

43:34

go support share it on your social media I

43:37

really believe in this podcast, and I'm so

43:39

so happy for and proud of what Julie's

43:42

here again It's a game changer. I think

43:44

we're gonna see a lot of a

43:46

big shift moving forward that needs to

43:48

be happening Yeah, so this is really incredible all

43:50

right. You have your marching orders go subscribe to media

43:52

pressure right now I just lastly just

43:54

like wrapping up with some more like calls to action

43:56

remember like Julie says in case with empathy Yeah, it's

43:59

not that hard And if you hear

44:01

something and it will jog your memory about

44:03

something new, like go to mediapressure.com for more

44:05

information and just ways you can submit anything

44:07

if something that Julie said went, oh, wait

44:09

a minute. Like Julie said, she's hoping someone

44:11

will hear this and it will jog your

44:13

memory about something. So if that's you or

44:15

if you want any more information, go to

44:18

mediapressure.com. That's where you can reach out and

44:20

contact them about nicely, of course, with empathy.

44:22

Of course. If you have anything more to

44:24

add. And the first two episodes were

44:26

released yesterday, and then it's like a weekly single episode

44:28

with eight total. And then those Q&A apps, which

44:30

I'm super excited to listen to as well. I wanted

44:32

to mention too, FollowJulie on TikTok. It's

44:35

at Mora Marie Missing. She's got 265,000

44:37

followers. Yeah, we're two

44:39

of them. I know. She talks about the case daily.

44:41

It's just a great place to also connect with her

44:43

there. So follow her in all the places. Yeah,

44:45

and Star Attorney and Voices for Justice, POD and

44:47

Voices for Justice Media, they're all out there, so

44:49

they're doing good work. Yep. All right, Sam, we love you.

44:51

We love you. All right, bye. Bye.