0:00

Hi,

0:04

everyone. This is Jillian with Court Junkie.

0:07

Court Junkie is a true crime podcast that

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covers court cases and criminal trials

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using audio clips and interviews with people

0:14

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0:56

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode

0:58

two ninety four of the True Crime all the

1:00

time unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

1:03

And with me as always is my partner in True

1:05

Crime, Mike Gibson, give me how are

1:07

you? Hey, I'm doing good about So I'm doing great

1:09

because I'm getting ready to go on vacation.

1:12

Well, hopefully it's not like

1:14

a national lampoons.

1:16

On vacation. I think it was just vacation.

1:19

I don't think on was in the title, but

1:21

I know what you're saying. Yeah. I don't want

1:23

one of those.

1:24

Chevy Chase junior.

1:25

I don't need that type of drama.

1:27

But I'm excited. You know, the family

1:30

and I are going to to Disney. So

1:32

We have not taken a full blown

1:34

vacation. I can't even

1:36

remember the last

1:37

time. Well, I'm glad I got you to tickets.

1:39

Regardless of what they say, when you go

1:41

to the gate, those tickets really

1:43

are still good.

1:45

There is not one person that believes

1:48

that you sprung opened

1:50

your wallet and bought tickets for

1:52

Disney. Do you know how much tickets for Disney

1:54

cost?

1:55

No. But I made them on my computer. Well,

1:57

Okay. I see what you're saying. They look really

1:59

good, and you're saying that they will work.

2:01

You just got just be

2:03

convincing. It's all about presentation,

2:05

absolutely. Let's

2:06

go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We

2:08

had little Jakarta Lada

2:11

ninety five. Hey Jakarta

2:12

Lada. CC? Well, thank you, CC.

2:15

Terry LaSalle, what's going on, Terry? Michael

2:17

Jones.

2:17

Hey, Michael. Kaylie Hennes. I appreciate

2:20

that, Kaylie. TS Pens.

2:22

AET Myrna Arasco.

2:25

Arasco. Sarah Dixon.

2:27

What's going on, Sarah? Cynthia Burton is Cynthia.

2:29

Tyler Ploucher. Ploucher. Katie

2:33

Malour. I think it's a

2:35

dual. How's that different from

2:37

what

2:37

I said? Very different. Except you

2:39

just ran a bunch of of the letters together.

2:42

Marie Flowers -- Hey, Marie. Amanda

2:44

Calhoun. What's

2:45

going on, Amanda? Autumn Wigs

2:47

pack jumped out at their highest level. That's

2:49

just an interesting name. Wigs a pack.

2:51

Yeah. And I'm not sure I'm right, but that's what I'm

2:53

going with. Day sparing. Day day?

2:55

Jennifer Crane. What's going on, Jennifer?

2:57

Sean Schultz. Asol. Alexander

3:00

Walsh. Well, thank you,

3:01

Alexander. Holly Roche. Hey, Holly. And

3:03

last but not least, Austin.

3:05

There's Lynn. And then if we go back into

3:07

the ball This

3:09

week, we selected Joe Wong. Well,

3:11

thanks

3:12

Joe. Appreciate that. So we appreciate

3:14

all the new support, the continued support.

3:16

We had great PayPal donations, really

3:19

big donation from

3:19

Kippur, Westbrook,

3:21

and thanks Westbrook. Tandy, Iowa

3:23

Fucci. Hey, Tandy, and

3:26

a big shout out to NASA

3:28

DeVaney from John. Hey, NASA and

3:30

John. So, Gives right now on TCAT,

3:33

we have an episode out on Dana Flynn

3:35

and Michael Drilling, brother

3:37

and sister. Who committed

3:39

a murder of Dana's

3:42

ex, but there's a lot to this

3:44

story, man. There's relationships, there's

3:47

custody battles, There's a

3:49

pastor who is described as

3:51

a cult like figure. There's a

3:53

lot. It's

3:53

a good episode, so go out there and listen to it.

3:55

Alright, buddy. Are you ready to get into

3:58

this episode of True Crime All Time Unsolved?

4:00

I'm ready. We are covering part

4:02

two of the murders of the Bain family.

4:05

In New Zealand in ninety

4:07

four. So in last week's episode,

4:09

we discussed how the oldest son

4:11

David arrived home from his morning

4:13

paper route around six forty

4:16

AM. He came into the house

4:18

and found the bodies of his parents.

4:20

Robin and Margaret in

4:22

his three siblings, Arwa,

4:25

Laniette, and Stephen.

4:27

The entire family had been shot in

4:29

cold blood. Following the massacre.

4:31

Someone put a blood stained green sweater

4:33

in the dirty laundry, and it

4:35

got washed with the clothes David

4:37

had worn out on his paperwork.

4:39

The family computer was switched on,

4:42

and a note was typed on the screen

4:44

saying, sorry, you

4:46

are the only one who deserved

4:48

to stay. We talked about the

4:50

crime scene evidence in David's police

4:52

interviews where he painted a picture of the

4:54

family dynamics as complex

4:56

and sometimes chaotic This was

4:59

one of those cases where there

5:01

could only have been two

5:03

possible suspects, either

5:05

the father Robin, committed

5:08

a murder suicide, or

5:10

the sole survivor, David, was

5:12

the killer. I think,

5:14

Gibbs, that's where most

5:16

people went. Two possibility. I

5:19

think they're in one of the two camps.

5:21

Key evidence incriminating day David

5:23

included his fingerprints on the murder

5:25

weapon and the victim's

5:27

blood on his clothes. David

5:30

also had unexplained bruises

5:32

and scratches on his body, and

5:34

he'd waited twenty five minutes

5:36

to call the emergency

5:38

number. But is it a problem

5:40

that he waited twenty did he really wait twenty

5:42

five minutes? I mean, if he came in the home

5:45

by the time he got undressed and

5:48

did everything that he

5:48

did, including finding the bodies,

5:51

and eventually called the emergency

5:53

contact number Well, I think

5:55

it's the term weighted twenty

5:57

five minutes. Yeah. And and we're gonna

5:59

talk about it later because I

6:02

think prosecutors are gonna use

6:04

that term but is it really

6:06

waiting twenty five minutes or

6:08

the call was made twenty five minutes

6:10

after he got home? So

6:12

we'll we'll get into it. I I think

6:14

in some respects, it

6:16

seemed like an open and shot case.

6:18

As a result, David was charged

6:20

with five counts of murder. In a case

6:22

that captivated the New

6:24

Zealand public over the next

6:26

twenty eight years. Now, we

6:28

always say this about two parters if

6:30

you've not listened to part want. We

6:32

definitely recommend you going back 2 that

6:35

first because you're

6:37

gonna want all those details. But

6:39

now it's on to part two, which is

6:41

the investigation, the trials,

6:44

and the appeals. On May

6:46

eighth nineteen ninety five, David's

6:48

trial commenced in the high Court of

6:50

New Zealand and done even

6:52

according to court documents. The

6:54

prosecution alleged that

6:57

around five AM on June

6:59

twentieth nineteen ninety four

7:01

David woke up and dressed in a

7:03

t shirt and black rugby shorts.

7:05

On top of all that, he wore track

7:08

pants, a green sweater, and

7:10

possibly a black turtleneck. David's

7:12

glasses, which he usually wore, were being

7:14

repaired, so he put on an old

7:16

pair of Margaret's glasses Similar

7:19

to his prescription, the prosecution

7:22

pointed out that only David, not

7:24

Robin, was ever known to

7:26

have worn Margaret's glasses at any

7:28

time. Man, I'm not gonna find anybody

7:30

with my same prescription. Well,

7:31

I was thinking the same thing. I mean,

7:34

everybody in my house wears glasses

7:36

and none of us can wear each other's.

7:39

It's very rare. I don't I

7:41

wouldn't say rare, but I I think it's fairly

7:43

rare for people in the same

7:45

family to have the exact

7:48

same prescription or to have

7:50

it be close enough -- Yeah. -- where

7:52

those glasses are are usable

7:54

People pick up my glasses and try them on. The

7:56

first thing they say is, whoa. Mister

7:59

McGill? Yeah. Yeah. The

8:01

court heard David took his rifle and

8:03

some ammunition out of his wardrobe

8:06

and released the firearms trigger

8:08

lock with the spare key It was

8:10

argued that David executed his

8:12

mother and siblings before setting

8:14

off on his paper route while

8:16

Robin was asleep in the camper. Where

8:18

he usually stayed. In the struggle

8:20

with fourteen year old Stephen, the

8:23

glasses left lens

8:25

fell out. When they were knocked off

8:27

David's face. The prosecution pointed

8:30

to the presence of green fibers

8:32

found underneath Stephen's fingernails

8:35

as evidence David wore the green

8:37

sweater when he killed his

8:39

brother. Well, that's a way to link the

8:41

blood stained sweater

8:43

to David. Yeah. I see where

8:45

they're trying to link it 2

8:48

Does it conclusively put

8:50

him in the sweater? I would

8:52

say

8:52

no. But

8:53

they're trying to make a pretty good case for it. Well,

8:55

if he's the killer, it does. Right?

8:57

If if everything falls in line

8:59

with their narrative, then yeah.

9:01

He was wearing the green sweater. The

9:04

prosecution claimed David in his

9:06

clothes, including his socks, were

9:08

stained with blood. It was argued

9:10

that before David left the house,

9:12

he washed his hands and

9:14

changed his outer clothes inadvertently

9:17

leaving blood stains in the combined

9:19

bathroom, laundry room,

9:21

after placing his blood stain clothes in

9:23

the washing machine. With other

9:25

items, the family wore, he started

9:27

to wash cycle. David left the

9:29

house around five forty five

9:31

AM. And completed his

9:33

paper route. He ensured that

9:35

various people saw him while he

9:37

was out on his paper route

9:40

after arriving home, David was said

9:42

to have turned on the computer and

9:44

tied the staged suicide

9:46

note. Being familiar with his

9:48

father's morning routine, the

9:50

prosecution argued that David

9:52

concealed himself inside

9:54

the Alcove where the computer

9:56

was situated and waited for

9:58

Robin to enter when Robin

10:00

entered the home. He placed today's

10:02

newspaper on the table and

10:04

knelt on the living room floor to

10:06

pray. David then shot him with

10:08

the rifle. After some further

10:10

staging, which included balancing

10:12

the rifle's magazine on

10:14

its edge on the floor near

10:16

Robin's body David

10:19

called Emergency Services

10:21

at 709 AM. So a

10:23

lot of this we covered in

10:25

episode one. But now we're

10:27

covering it as the

10:29

prosecution claims

10:31

it happened and also

10:34

that David carried it

10:37

out, which is important. Right? They

10:39

wanna lay it out to the jury of how

10:41

this massacre occurred.

10:43

Why? I think it's absolutely

10:46

necessary. Right? If you're

10:48

attempting to get a

10:50

conviction, you have to tell

10:52

the jury exactly how

10:54

you believe it happened. And

10:57

you have to have some evidence

10:59

that backs that up. I think the other

11:01

important thing is motive.

11:03

You know, what would David's motive

11:05

be? The prosecution argued

11:07

David murdered his family. To allow

11:09

him to benefit from

11:11

his parents' inheritance.

11:13

Well, the way to ensure that you're going

11:15

to get all the inheritance

11:18

is obviously to kill your

11:19

parents, but then also make sure you have no

11:21

siblings left. The court

11:23

also heard David had behaved

11:26

in what was described as an

11:28

odd and disturbing way before

11:30

and after the killings in the

11:32

lead up to the murders. He was said to have

11:34

told a friend he thought something

11:36

horrible was going to happen. Robin

11:38

and Margaret's siblings testified

11:40

for the defense about Robin's

11:42

general demeanor and state of

11:44

mind they refuted the

11:46

idea that he was the killer or that

11:48

he held animosity towards

11:50

anyone in the family. Robin's brother

11:53

described him as humble. Not

11:55

proud of his own achievements, but

11:57

of his families. Margaret's

11:59

sister told the court she found

12:01

Robin to be relaxed. Very

12:03

gentle, pleasant, and very

12:05

calm. But this conflicted with

12:07

evidence from Robin's

12:09

teaching colleagues who felt

12:11

He showed signs of depression in

12:13

the lead up to the murders. His

12:16

marriage was said to be shaky,

12:18

which would be enough to make anyone

12:20

unhappy. So a little bit of

12:22

conflicting information. Right?

12:24

But here's my thought, is

12:26

that, you know, out of

12:28

the ordinary. For your

12:31

family to see you as one

12:33

thing, friends to see you as one thing,

12:36

and you people at work maybe to see a

12:38

different

12:38

side. Well, people will only see what you

12:41

want to show them. Yeah. I

12:42

would agree with that one hundred percent.

12:44

I think, gives one of the

12:46

things that the prosecution really

12:49

focused on was their thought

12:51

that whoever killed the family. Would

12:53

have been covered in the victim's blood,

12:57

which makes a lot of sense. It does.

12:59

The prosecution noted the lack

13:01

of blood on been besides his

13:03

head wound. There was no

13:05

evidence of the other victim's

13:07

blood on his clothes or

13:09

body Robin's feet were closer

13:11

in size to the bloody footprints

13:13

found in Margaret's bedroom in the

13:15

hallway, but there was no blood on

13:17

his David admitted to

13:19

owning a pair of white gloves like

13:21

the bloody white dress gloves

13:23

found in Steven's room. This was

13:25

also viewed as a substantial piece

13:27

of evidence. If Robin committed

13:30

a murder suicide, why would he

13:32

wear gloves? To eliminate

13:34

his fingerprints. It's a valid point.

13:36

And why would he wear David's

13:38

gloves? So we talked about in

13:40

episode one, that Robin had his own

13:42

gloves. So why would he wear

13:44

David's gloves unless he was

13:46

trying to set him up? The

13:47

testimony of the forensic

13:50

pathologist was very compelling.

13:52

He testified that it would have

13:54

been incredibly difficult for

13:56

right handed Robin to shoot

13:58

himself in the left temple.

14:00

From a forty five degree angle

14:03

as he had been shot. So

14:05

this is the prosecution. The

14:07

defense identified Robin as

14:09

the killer. They argued that

14:11

Robin and Woe went into the house to

14:13

kill his family before

14:15

six thirty two AM when his alarm

14:17

went off but after

14:19

David had left. Concerning the

14:21

bloody footprints and lack of

14:23

blood on Robin's clothing, the

14:25

defense claimed he wore different clothes. And

14:28

committing the murders, and then changed

14:30

before taking his life, which is why

14:32

he had no blood on his side. This

14:34

was evidence of Robin's

14:37

disturbed state of mind for the defense.

14:39

The defense pointed to bruising on

14:41

the back of Robin's hands. As

14:43

evidence he'd struggled with the

14:45

victim. So I think it's easy to

14:47

see where each side is going

14:49

here, and it's pretty

14:51

simple. Right? For the prosecution,

14:54

David did it. Here's how

14:56

he did it. For the defense,

14:58

no, it wasn't David. It

15:00

was Robin, and here's how he

15:02

accomplished it. David told the

15:04

court he arrived back

15:06

on his street at six forty

15:08

According to his watch. He said it

15:10

could have taken at least two to three minutes

15:12

to walk to the front door as the

15:15

house was said back from the street

15:18

David claimed the green sweater washed

15:20

by the killer was too small for

15:22

him. Basically, he was

15:24

inferring that It was Robin who

15:26

was shorter and had a

15:28

slider build who had worn

15:30

it. David then provided

15:32

testament that conflicted with what

15:34

he'd originally told police.

15:36

David had always maintained. He only

15:38

remembered finding the bodies of

15:40

his parents. Before the trial

15:42

commenced, he'd undergone

15:44

therapy. To treat a subsequent

15:46

diagnosis of post traumatic stress

15:48

disorder, HE RECALLED THE SECQUENCE

15:51

OF DISCOVERING THE BODIES OF HIS

15:53

ENTIRE FAMILY AFTER FINDING

15:55

HIS MOTHER DEAT, DAVID WENT

15:57

INTO STEVEN'S BEDROOM NEXT,

15:59

to Margaret's, David touched his

16:02

brother to see if he was alive, but

16:04

he too was dead. David

16:06

claimed he heard gurgling from the

16:08

room across the hall where

16:10

Laniette had stayed the night.

16:12

But by the time he went into her

16:14

room, he found she'd

16:16

also been murdered. He then headed

16:18

downstairs where he found

16:20

sidewalk dead in her bed. Going

16:22

back upstairs, David

16:24

opened the living room door where he

16:26

found his father's body. And

16:28

this is something I thought about bringing

16:30

up in episode one, but I chose

16:33

not to If you go

16:35

back to the emergency

16:37

phone call, David says,

16:40

they're all dead. But

16:42

really, we only talked about him

16:44

finding his

16:45

parents. Right. So you've really had

16:47

this buried inside of him from the

16:49

trauma. Is what the defense is trying

16:51

to demonstrate. But what's the

16:53

truth? What he told them in the beginning

16:55

or what he's telling them during

16:57

the trial? Well, you

16:58

know one thing's for sure. Anytime

17:00

you change up your testimony,

17:03

you're gonna get hammered by

17:06

the other

17:07

side. Certainly

17:07

helps with the window of time because it

17:09

would take longer to find

17:11

all of the bodies. Yeah. I

17:14

get that. David couldn't

17:16

recall how long it took to

17:18

discover his family. But he did

17:20

say he hadn't used the rifle

17:22

since early nineteen ninety four

17:24

to shoot possums. He didn't

17:26

remember seeing the rifle on the day of the

17:28

murders or touching it. Now

17:30

one of the things that David's

17:33

admission of being in his

17:35

siblings' rooms did was

17:37

help explain the presence of

17:39

Stephen's blood on

17:41

his clothes. When David was asked about Margaret's

17:43

glasses, he admitted he'd

17:45

occasionally warned them to watch

17:47

2, but he denied wearing

17:49

them the weekend before the murders or on the day

17:51

in question, which is in

17:53

direct conflict of what the

17:55

prosecution said about the glasses.

17:58

Yeah. The the one thing that strikes me

18:00

is, okay, he's changing testimony.

18:02

And you could make the argument

18:05

that he's changing it because he has

18:07

to explain how

18:09

Steven's blood got

18:11

on his clothing. But

18:13

if you're going to do that, why not

18:16

just change the part

18:18

about the glasses as

18:19

well?

18:19

Yeah. That's your opportunity. To help

18:22

explain that. So Yeah. I it kinda

18:24

hard to figure out at this point.

18:26

Key to the defense case was

18:28

the question of motive on Robin's

18:31

part. They painted him as a man

18:33

who was so mentally disturbed and

18:36

irrational that he became homicidal and

18:38

took his frustrations out on his

18:41

family. David testified about the

18:43

deterioration of his parents'

18:45

marriage. Upon the family's return to

18:47

New Zealand, in

18:49

the late eighties. He described

18:51

his relationship with his mother as

18:53

wonderful, but acknowledged

18:55

she had some extremely odd

18:57

religious and spiritual beliefs. He

18:59

also understood the financial implications

19:02

for Margaret if she saw

19:04

the divorce. Most interesting

19:06

was David's change of perspective

19:08

around his relationship with

19:10

his father. He now told the court that

19:12

he and Robin got along well.

19:15

So I think if you're the prosecution,

19:17

you are definitely pointing out

19:19

to the jury all

19:21

the times where David

19:24

has now changed

19:26

his story. Even

19:28

something like how well he and

19:30

his father got along. You're you're pointing all

19:32

of that out.

19:33

Sure. Because initially he told him that him and his

19:35

dad didn't get along. That could be

19:37

a reason that someone might 2 kill

19:39

their father if they're not getting

19:41

along. Versus now, we're

19:43

good. We're pals. We're pals. We're buddies. Yeah.

19:45

So I wouldn't wanna hurt him. Before

19:48

closing, the defense reminded the jury.

19:50

Of David's good character in

19:53

cooperation with the police. He'd also been

19:55

very open about the fact that no one

19:57

in the family knew where he stored the

19:59

key to the trigger lock for the

20:01

rifle, but the prosecution made

20:03

an equally significant point

20:05

in summing up. They said if

20:08

Laniette had been gurgling,

20:10

as David stated, she was just

20:12

before he found her

20:13

body, only one person could

20:15

have hurt her. And that was the killer.

20:18

Well, that's what the

20:18

prosecution wants the jury to

20:21

believe. Yeah. I I don't know how

20:23

true that is. Because I

20:25

think there's a lot of factors

20:27

that would play into that,

20:29

you know, how quickly

20:31

would someone die? Right? How long would

20:33

it take? And it's different

20:35

in every situation. True

20:38

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Amazon Music. Exhibit c, it's

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truly criminal. On May

22:56

twenty ninth nineteen ninety five, three

22:58

year old David was found guilty on

23:00

five counts of murder. Three weeks

23:02

later on June twenty first,

23:04

he was sentenced to a mandatory

23:07

life term with a minimum non

23:09

parole period of

23:11

sixteen years. Seems kind of like

23:13

for five murders, but again,

23:15

this is in another country. Yeah, I think you

23:17

compare it to what we're used

23:19

to here in the US, the

23:21

life term we

23:23

see all the time. Right?

23:25

Many states don't have the death

23:27

penalty. I get that. I

23:29

think where we probably differ

23:31

is in the non parole

23:34

period, you know, minimum. Maybe

23:36

we would be looking at twenty

23:38

five years, thirty

23:40

to life. Right. Something like that,

23:42

twenty five, thirty years. But it

23:45

doesn't mean he's going to get out in

23:47

sixteen years. No. David

23:50

immediately appealed. He claimed the trial

23:52

judge aired in refusing to

23:54

admit the testimony of a

23:56

defense witness whose

23:58

identity had been suppressed. But

24:00

that appeal was dismissed in December

24:02

nineteen ninety five. David

24:04

sought compensation, further up the

24:06

Commonwealth legal chain

24:08

of command, applying to the privy

24:10

council in Britain and

24:12

seeking leave to appeal.

24:14

The privy council used to be the high

24:16

2 of appeal. For the entire

24:18

British empire. Today, it

24:20

hears appeals from independent commonwealth

24:23

countries, including New Zealand, In

24:25

May nineteen ninety six, it dismissed David's

24:29

application. Two months later, back in New

24:31

Zealand, the Court of Appeal lifted

24:33

a suppression order relating

24:35

to the defense witness we just mentioned,

24:37

whose name was

24:39

Dean Coddle, according to

24:41

the Atago Daily Times.

24:43

The defense had planned for deemed

24:45

to testify in support

24:48

of an explosive allegation

24:50

made by David that Robin had been

24:53

sexually abusing Lanier. Before

24:55

the trial, Dean told investigators

24:58

he'd met Lanier around ten

25:00

months earlier in Dunn Eaton.

25:03

At the time, she had moved out

25:05

of the house and was temporarily

25:07

living in a boarding home

25:09

Supporting herself by engaging in

25:11

sex work. Now, this was all

25:14

hearsay. But Lanyette was

25:16

said to have told Dean in

25:18

detail about her being a sex worker

25:21

and about her plans to tell the

25:23

family the weekend before the

25:25

murders. That her father had

25:27

been sexually abusing her. In

25:29

the end, Dean's evidence as

25:31

a witness never made it to

25:34

After he failed to attend court and couldn't

25:36

be contacted, the judge determined

25:38

Dean was an unreliable

25:40

witness. And ruled his potential evidence in

25:43

admissible. That would be

25:44

a huge piece of evidence.

25:47

It would be very dramatic

25:51

testimony, it would still be up to the

25:53

jury 2 weigh it, to weigh

25:55

the truthfulness of

25:57

it, because I don't know

25:59

who other than David was

26:01

going to be able to

26:04

corroborate. That's a

26:05

good

26:06

point. Now David's on trial

26:08

for murder. So is he

26:10

a good corroborating witness? You

26:12

know, these are the things that a

26:15

jury has to, you know,

26:17

sort out. What I didn't

26:19

see is, like, what happened to

26:21

this Why did he not make it to court? I never

26:23

really saw much about that,

26:25

but you could see how

26:27

a judge would rule. That, you

26:29

know, the guy doesn't show

26:30

up. Yes. So how

26:32

can he be credible? By the time

26:34

David was conviction His case had

26:37

attracted the attention of Joe

26:39

Karam, a prominent businessman

26:41

who had formerly played four

26:43

World Famous New Zealand an

26:45

all black rugby team and who went on to

26:47

write a book claiming Robin was

26:49

the killer. According to the press newspaper,

26:52

and as covered by the reporter and

26:55

author Martin Van

26:57

Bagen. With Joe's financial backing,

26:59

David's defense team prepared a

27:02

petition to the New Zealand governor

27:04

general in February nineteen ninety

27:06

seven seeking a

27:08

part The application was supported by a former

27:11

pathologist who argued the evidence

27:13

showed Robin had taken his

27:15

own life. months later,

27:17

the New Zealand Herald reported that

27:19

an independent inquiry

27:21

would be reviewing the police

27:23

handling of the investigation. BUT

27:25

THE INQUIRY CONCLUITED THAT THERE WERE

27:27

NO SIGNIFICANT FLAWES IN THE INVESTIGATION

27:30

AND ALL THE OFFICERS INVOLVED

27:32

WERE CLEARED OF ANY WRONG TOO.

27:35

I did find it interesting that a

27:38

pathologist was of the

27:40

opinion that Robin had

27:42

taken his own life. Given

27:44

what we talked about, the angle,

27:47

the side of the head, where he was

27:49

shot. Not saying it was

27:51

impossible, but it seemed pretty

27:53

difficult. Difficult, I would think that

27:55

if a person were trying to

27:57

shoot themselves in the head, they would shoot

27:59

themselves on the same side as

28:02

their dominant hand more

28:04

than likely. Basically saying there's

28:06

an easier way to do it. Yep. It

28:08

doesn't rule it out, but just

28:10

seems less likely. Later in

28:12

two thousand, there was another

28:14

development. The justice minister

28:16

announced that some asked banks of

28:18

David's case would be referred back to the Court

28:20

of Appeal because the

28:23

prosecution had made numerous errors

28:25

at trial. be another two

28:27

years before the justice

28:29

minister announced in

28:31

December two thousand two that

28:33

David's case would be re heard

28:35

in full. gave David who

28:37

was now thirty years old,

28:39

some renewed hope. So, you

28:41

know, basically, he's going to get a

28:44

new trial. I mean, what better news could a

28:46

convicted killer

28:46

get? Yeah, he's

28:47

gotta be pretty excited. This is

28:50

his opportunity. 2 what he's been fighting

28:52

for? Exactly. That's why you

28:54

appeal. That's why you you do all

28:56

that stuff. But the following

28:58

year, the Court of Appeal decided

29:01

that there would be no

29:03

retrial. So the letdown he had to

29:05

have after that, pretty massive. Yeah.

29:08

now we have to skip forward a few

29:10

years to mid

29:12

two thousand six. By this

29:14

time, thanks to the work of his

29:16

legal team, David won the right to

29:18

have a full hearing back at the

29:20

privy council in Britain.

29:22

According to court documents and

29:24

the press, council heard

29:26

new evidence around nine

29:28

arguments in the case the following

29:30

year. These included Robin's

29:33

possible motive. In state of

29:35

mind, the time of the victim's

29:37

death, the bloody footprints,

29:39

the blood on Robin's hands,

29:41

his injuries and evidence he took his own life

29:43

and alleged errors in the

29:45

police investigation. These

29:47

errors included the failure of

29:49

police to investigate the incest

29:52

claims thoroughly in the

29:54

disposal of Robin's fear

29:56

now scraping. Following a

29:58

larger scale general disposal

30:00

of evidence samples. It

30:02

also turned out that no carpet

30:04

samples were taken from the home

30:06

nor had the victim's hands and feet

30:08

been bagged to preserve

30:11

evidence. The exhibits register

30:13

hadn't been managed appropriately either

30:16

It also emerged that police had failed to

30:18

confirm the accuracy of all

30:20

the timepieces used to determine

30:22

what time David was seen on

30:24

his paper

30:25

route. So, this created

30:27

some confusion. In speculation

30:30

about just exactly

30:33

when the computer was switched on.

30:35

When you hear this, it definitely chas some doubts.

30:37

I mean, there's some concerns.

30:38

Well, at the very least, there

30:41

were some errors made right

30:43

by police. Especially

30:46

around how evidence was

30:48

collected, how evidence

30:50

was, you know, capped, not

30:52

capped, what things were investigated and

30:54

what were not after

30:56

considering all the detailed legal

30:58

arguments. In May two thousand

31:01

seven, The privy council

31:03

quashed David's convictions and

31:05

ordered a retrial, stating there

31:07

had been a substantial miscarriage

31:10

of justice. By this time David

31:12

was thirty five years old. He was

31:14

granted bail, and it was

31:16

reported by all the papers that he

31:18

and his supporters were thrilled. How could

31:20

they not be? Yeah. He

31:22

finally got his wish. Right? Right. I

31:24

mean, like I said before, what

31:26

else could be better for a

31:28

convicted killer? Other than them just saying, hey, we're letting you

31:30

go. A retrial. Yeah.

31:32

I get another chance at this.

31:34

At the retrial in March two

31:36

thousand nine. New evidence was

31:38

heard around a number of

31:40

facets of the case, most

31:42

notably motive in the

31:44

allegation that Robin had

31:46

officially abused Lanyette. This

31:48

time around, David didn't give

31:51

evidence. Through presenting other

31:53

witnesses who knew Lanyette The

31:55

defense argued there was evidence she had been

31:58

engaging in sex work and was

32:00

sick of lying to her family about

32:02

the incest and her source

32:04

of income. It was claimed David

32:06

had no knowledge of

32:08

Laniette's private life or her

32:10

plans to tell her family what had

32:12

been happening. According to the New

32:14

Zealand Herald, the defense argued

32:16

it was responsible to

32:18

conclude that in the face of

32:20

Robin being exposed as a sex

32:22

offender, this could have tipped him

32:24

over the edge and caused

32:26

him to annihilate

32:28

almost his entire family. Yeah.

32:30

This is something he wouldn't want to come

32:33

out as

32:33

a teacher or somebody

32:35

At his church, there's no way he would

32:37

want this to come out. I don't

32:39

think any sex offender wants

32:41

it to come out that they are

32:44

a sex offender. Now, could you make the

32:46

argument that a person

32:48

would go to any length to

32:50

keep that from happening? And

32:52

I think you can. You

32:54

can at least make the argument.

32:56

Doesn't mean it happen that way,

32:58

but the argument can be made. One

33:00

defense witness whose identity

33:02

was suppressed. Was a woman who

33:04

knew Lannyette the year before the

33:06

murders, the woman told the court that

33:08

four days before the

33:10

killings. Laniette said she intended to tell

33:12

the family about the incest.

33:15

Under cross examination, though,

33:17

The witness admitted Laniette was a

33:20

heavy marijuana user. The

33:22

implication was that she was

33:24

likely under the influence of drug. When

33:26

she revealed this information to the

33:28

witness and couldn't be said to

33:30

be reliable. Dean

33:32

Cottle's evidence was also found to

33:34

lack credibility when it

33:36

was revealed, he blackmailed Lanyette

33:38

into having sex with him to prevent

33:40

him from telling her family she was

33:42

a sex worker. Okay.

33:45

So first, he doesn't show up.

33:47

Right? He's deemed not

33:50

credible. Now his credibility is

33:52

even more in doubt -- Yeah. -- because

33:54

he blackmailed the the woman who

33:56

was ultimately

33:57

murdered. The whole marijuana

33:59

thing, you know, I wonder today.

34:01

Much of that would come into

34:04

play? Yeah. Here in the

34:06

States, I don't know that it would.

34:08

I mean, it's been

34:10

legalized in so many different

34:12

places. Right. It just

34:14

doesn't seem to have the

34:16

same connotation. Than it used

34:18

to or maybe that it does in in other

34:20

countries. I don't know. You know, the one thing I

34:22

wanna talk

34:24

about is We've been using the word that's

34:26

how it was reported

34:28

in all the papers. Right?

34:31

But I don't think that's the correct

34:34

terminology. I mean, this

34:36

was a sexual assault. This

34:38

was rape if it

34:40

really happened the way that people

34:42

are saying it did. You're exactly

34:44

right. That's the that's the correct

34:46

terminology. In mid two

34:48

thousand nine, thirty seven year old Bain

34:50

was found not guilty on all

34:52

five murder charges.

34:54

So obviously, he's

34:57

ecstatic. His supporters are happy. His defense attorneys

34:59

are happy. The original investigators

35:01

are not happy. There's a big

35:03

blow to 2.

35:06

This was a case that they felt they'd

35:09

already proved in court, and now the man

35:11

they felt was responsible was

35:14

free. But it went through the

35:16

system. And the system deemed

35:18

that the first trial wasn't fair.

35:20

And then obviously in

35:23

the second trial with a different

35:25

jury, different evidence, different

35:28

way of doing things, they found him

35:32

not guilty. By the time David was released. He'd already

35:34

spent a good chunk of his adult life in

35:36

prison almost

35:38

thirteen years. In March two

35:40

thousand ten, he sought financial

35:42

compensation from the New Zealand

35:44

government for wrongful imprisonment,

35:46

but that request was rejected.

35:49

David appealed this decision. True crime

35:52

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37:02

situation. In November two

37:04

thousand eleven, The government

37:06

appointed a retired justice of

37:08

the supreme court of Canada,

37:10

named Ian Binney. To

37:12

assess David's

37:14

and make an appropriate recommendation. So apparently,

37:16

the New Zealand government

37:19

had no obligation. To provide

37:22

anyone with compensation over

37:24

a wrongful conviction case.

37:26

According to court documents, David would

37:29

need to prove two key points. First, he had to

37:31

prove his innocence on the

37:33

balance of probabilities which

37:35

is a lower standard of proof than beyond a

37:38

reasonable doubt. The second

37:40

point David needed to prove

37:42

was the existence of extraordinary

37:44

circumstances with respect to the

37:47

interests of justice. These

37:50

extraordinary circumstances weren't

37:52

explicitly defined beyond saying David's

37:55

case must feature something

37:57

taking it outside the ordinary

37:59

bounds of other cases where

38:02

a conviction had been quashed. When

38:04

Ian Binnie released his report

38:06

in August two thousand twelve, He'd

38:09

formed the view that David was indeed

38:12

innocent. On the balance of

38:14

probabilities, he also determined

38:16

egregious errors had been made by

38:18

local police in that the extraordinary the

38:20

case did indeed justify

38:22

the payment of compensation. But

38:26

when the report was sent for peer review, New

38:29

Zealand High Court Judge

38:31

Robert Fisher was critical. Of

38:34

the assessment. Fisher noted the way in which

38:37

probabilities are assessed in

38:39

cases based entirely on

38:41

circumstantial evidence, as David's

38:43

case was, this was critical to his

38:46

application. In circumstantial

38:49

cases, overall probability So drive

38:52

from the combined effort of

38:54

numerous pieces of evidence,

38:56

footprints, the broken glasses,

38:58

David's fingerprints on the rifle, Justice

39:00

Fisher pointed out that while an independent assessment of

39:03

each piece of evidence was

39:06

required, the

39:08

ultimate determination. Of David's

39:10

guilt or innocence relied

39:12

on an assessment of all

39:14

those items viewed

39:16

in combination. He also pointed to the principle that as

39:18

each item of evidence

39:20

implicating an accused person

39:22

is aggregated, the

39:24

probability of guilt increases exponentially. Alright?

39:26

There's some big words in there.

39:28

Huge words. But it actually makes a

39:31

lot of sense. It does. You

39:33

can't take each piece

39:36

of evidence by

39:38

itself. I mean, you do take it

39:40

by itself but then it all

39:42

adds up as well. And

39:45

the more pieces of

39:47

evidence you have The probability of guilt

39:49

goes up tremendously. Yeah.

39:52

Following justice Fisher's review,

39:54

the minister of justice rejected

39:58

Ian Binney's report.

40:00

So I think one of the interesting

40:02

things about this portion

40:04

of the case is that

40:06

You know, his application compensation getting denied

40:09

at every turn, but public

40:11

sentiment was very supportive.

40:14

Of his calls. In a number of news opinion

40:17

polls, many New Zealanders believed

40:19

that David was entitled

40:22

to compensation. William,

40:24

they're looking at a guy that was found to be innocent that

40:27

spent thirteen years of his

40:29

life in

40:30

prison. And I think this

40:32

view was bolstered even more in

40:34

two thousand thirteen when the

40:36

New Zealand news program, third

40:39

degree, suggested that soot on

40:41

Robin's right thumb and forefinger,

40:44

indicated he may have fired the

40:46

murder weapon. The suit was

40:48

said to have been deposited

40:50

from loading the cartridges

40:52

into the magazine. But in

40:54

the end, nothing conclusive

40:56

could be drawn from this new

40:58

evidence. So David kept

41:01

appealing. He kept getting shot

41:03

down Then in two thousand sixteen, the New

41:05

Zealand government decided to

41:08

pay him because he

41:11

would not stop appealing A

41:13

payment of nine hundred and twenty five

41:15

thousand dollars was made to David

41:17

in return for the

41:19

matter being settled, with no

41:21

legal action initiated. According to the

41:24

Atago 2 Times,

41:26

the nothing

41:28

to do with David's case having merit. It

41:30

was more of a payout made on

41:32

moral grounds as opposed

41:34

to 2 legal one because the case had absorbed

41:36

so much time. In a

41:38

considerable amount of financial resources over

41:41

the years, it was decided

41:43

that it was at everyone's best interest

41:45

for the matter to be

41:46

finalized. And I get 2. You know, in

41:48

our line of work, when you

41:50

used to work with me, there were many

41:54

times. That we would settle

41:55

things. Even

41:56

if we thought we were right? Exactly. Yeah. Because

41:58

the legal process, the

42:01

payment to attorneys, it

42:03

was gonna far exceed whatever we were

42:06

going to pay some. Right? And I

42:08

do think that happens a lot

42:10

of the time. So

42:12

David was convicted. He was

42:14

freed. I think, you know,

42:16

as we wrap up this two

42:19

parter, on the Bain family murders, we

42:21

have to look at the two

42:23

main suspects. Obviously, those

42:26

are David

42:28

and wrapping. So we have to go back to some of the key pieces of

42:30

evidence in this case in

42:32

terms of the cryptic suicide

42:36

note. The author used the past tense of

42:38

deserved. Instead of the

42:41

present tense deserves 2

42:44

prosecutors This suggested

42:46

it was unlikely. Robin had typed

42:48

the note. Given David's self

42:50

reported conflict with his father,

42:53

It seems strange for Robin

42:55

to have decided that David

42:58

was the one who deserved to stay and

43:00

everyone else deserved to die. There was no

43:02

explanation as to why David

43:04

specifically had been spared.

43:06

It was thought that if David

43:08

deserved to

43:10

stay Robin would have been clearer in the note

43:12

about why that was,

43:14

giving his son that information.

43:17

Yeah. And I I agree with that. Why wouldn't

43:19

you expand on that a little bit to to

43:21

help your son out? Then we go to

43:23

the rifle. If

43:26

Robin killed his family, then killed himself, and

43:28

he was the last one to use

43:30

the rifle, why weren't his fingerprints

43:34

on? That's a big question. And then, you know, we

43:36

have to talk about the alleged

43:38

sexual abuse

43:40

of Robin against Lanier. That

43:44

only became public after the trial. Even

43:46

if this had been proven in

43:49

court, it doesn't

43:51

seem to fit that Robin would have killed everyone

43:53

except for David. If he's gonna take out the

43:56

family,

43:56

why not take out the whole family?

43:59

I also don't think it's been proven

44:02

that Robin knew. Lannyette was

44:04

going to tell the family.

44:06

And this was an issue that was raised in

44:08

court, but

44:10

It was whether Robin was physically capable

44:12

of killing his entire

44:14

family, given the fact that

44:16

there was a violent struggle between

44:20

Stephen and the killer. We said

44:22

it. Right? The fourteen year old

44:24

Stephen put up

44:26

a vicious fight. Whoever overpowered

44:28

him would have had to

44:30

have been relatively strong. Robin

44:32

was shorter than David. He

44:34

was said to have had fairly

44:38

slight build, and then there's the

44:40

issue of David's injuries. If

44:42

he didn't get them that morning

44:44

on the paper route, how do you

44:47

get them? That's a good question. A lot of people

44:49

think it could have been during the

44:51

struggle with his brother. And

44:53

for me, you know, one

44:55

of the things that really has

44:58

perplexed me about this

45:00

case throughout the research. Was

45:03

the issue of Robin's full bladder. I think

45:05

I touched on the little bit

45:07

in episode one. Everybody

45:10

has a different morning routine. But I

45:12

think by and large, most

45:16

people would

45:18

relieve themselves ahead of

45:20

many other tasks. Yes.

45:23

It's hard for me

45:25

to believe that Robin would not have gone to

45:27

the restroom before doing

45:30

all that the defense team

45:32

claims he did that morning.

45:36

Killing his entire family, changing his clothes,

45:38

and then taking his own

45:40

life. It's hard to make sense of it.

45:43

Because it's not that hard to go to the bathroom. No. It's

45:45

a pretty easy thing. Everybody does it. We all

45:47

do it every day. A lot

45:49

of people, I think, when they look at this

45:51

case, point to you know,

45:53

how long it took for David to

45:56

call emergency services.

45:58

That one, I'm up in the

46:00

air about because, again, I

46:03

think the timing is a little

46:05

bit all over the place. What

46:07

did he do that morning?

46:09

How long did it take?

46:11

When did he find the bodies versus

46:13

when he called? Now,

46:16

obviously, if he waited a very

46:18

long time, to call emergency services after

46:20

finding the bodies. That would

46:22

cast a lot of suspicion

46:24

on anyone.

46:26

Sure. Then you add in

46:28

the fact that he said in court,

46:30

that he heard his sister,

46:33

Lanyette, gurgling, so

46:35

how long from that

46:37

point? Until he called. Well, if you go

46:39

by the fact that he says he was

46:41

on history to six forty, it took two to three

46:43

minutes to get to the house. Which

46:45

would be, say, six forty two, six

46:48

forty three. And he

46:50

called versus services at 709

46:52

and you gotta consider everything that he did in that time period -- That he

46:55

said he

46:55

did. -- that he said he did. Before finding

46:57

the bot. Right? Yeah.

47:00

So again, for me,

47:02

that's kind of a jumbled mess, and

47:04

I don't know what to make of

47:06

it. I'll be honest with you. I mean,

47:08

I think at the end of the day, we

47:10

know David was eventually found not guilty. So,

47:13

I mean, in the

47:16

eyes of at at least that second jury, there was

47:18

not enough to prove his guilt

47:20

beyond a reasonable doubt.

47:22

So in looking at the

47:24

other suspect, Obviously, of

47:26

course, that's Robin. One of the

47:28

most compelling ideas supporting

47:30

Robin is the killer, is

47:32

that if David killed his mother

47:34

and siblings, before leaving for his paper

47:36

route, then murdering Robin

47:38

upon his return. Man, was

47:41

really taking a big risk. Why

47:44

would someone take the

47:46

chance that these four

47:48

bodies would be discovered

47:52

in this hour or

47:54

so that David was

47:56

gone. How could he

47:58

have known other than his dad's

47:59

routine. Right. How could he have how could he have

48:00

known that

48:01

his dad wouldn't get up a little bit earlier? Yeah.

48:03

You have to be really confident that

48:05

that wasn't gonna happen.

48:08

There was also some evidence. It's a retrial

48:10

that Robyn's foot size was

48:12

closer to the size of the bloody

48:15

footprints than David. And there

48:17

are arguments over motive, including

48:20

both men's reported state

48:23

of mind, Robin was said to

48:25

have been struggling with depression. Over

48:27

the state of the marriage. He

48:30

would not have been the

48:32

first man to annihilate

48:34

his family at the prospect of losing everything

48:36

in his

48:36

life. That's true. We covered plenty of

48:38

cases in the past. Yeah. We've we've

48:41

covered family annihilators And

48:44

I think something that kind of supports that is

48:48

why would David have

48:50

wanted to kill his mother

48:52

and siblings with whom he

48:54

apparently had a a good

48:56

relationship. Now, obviously,

48:58

the motive for David being

49:01

the killer is is

49:04

financial. That's what the prosecution

49:06

put forth. There really hasn't been

49:08

much in the way of

49:10

recent updates David eventually found a job at an

49:12

engineering firm in two thousand

49:14

twelve following his release. He went

49:16

on to Mary and have

49:18

a child In two

49:20

thousand seventeen, he changed his name

49:22

to William Davis. And there

49:24

were some reports that he might have

49:26

moved to Australia. So, I

49:28

mean, you know, this is a fascinating

49:30

case. And I think that's why

49:32

so many people have

49:35

followed it disgusted, dissected it,

49:37

there's no doubt depending

49:39

on which side of the fincher on.

49:41

There's still a bunch of

49:44

unanswered questions. On on

49:46

either side. Right? Whoever you

49:48

believe is the killer, there are

49:50

still some unanswered questions. And I don't know

49:52

if you're ever gonna know. David's been through

49:54

two trials. 2 the second one,

49:56

he was found not guilty. Yeah?

49:58

Well, and and obviously,

50:00

Robin is dead. Right? One

50:03

thing's for sure, this case

50:06

became one of the most expensive

50:08

in New Zealand's legal

50:10

history. It was marked it

50:12

almost seven million dollars.

50:14

And I think you're right. Gibbs in the

50:16

end, I don't know that we'll ever

50:18

know the the full truth.

50:21

Of what happened that

50:24

morning. But I also don't think people will

50:26

stop trying to figure

50:28

it out. I don't think people will stop trying to figure this out.

50:30

No. No. I think

50:31

people will continue to, you know,

50:33

put four theories, look at

50:35

evidence. I mean,

50:37

that's that's kinda what armchair detectives,

50:40

amateur slews do. Yeah.

50:42

But that's it for our case on the

50:44

unsolved Bain

50:46

family murders. I can't

50:48

tell you where I land.

50:50

I I really can't.

50:52

My initial thought was that

50:54

there were more signs pointing

50:56

to

50:56

David. That was my initial

50:58

thought. And it's probably where I still

51:00

lean. Yeah. But it really doesn't

51:02

matter where I lean because he

51:05

was acquitted. Yeah. So I think I just need more decisive

51:07

information and

51:08

then, yeah, we're not gonna get it. Yeah.

51:10

I mean, I I'm not gonna call the guy a

51:12

killer because I don't have the information.

51:16

Right? But from the facts that we had and and how

51:18

kind of everything was laid

51:20

out, I definitely lean that

51:22

way. But

51:24

That's just me.

51:24

You only have the facts that were presented to work with, and when

51:26

you look at those, it kind of leans

51:29

you in that direction.

51:31

Well, I mean, like we say in in a lot

51:33

of cases, we weren't in the

51:35

courtroom. No. We

51:38

weren't privy to every piece of information that the jury

51:40

saw. So it's really

51:42

hard when, you know,

51:44

all you have is the research

51:48

the newspaper articles, you know, court records, which

51:50

you can dig up, not everything

51:54

is there. It's not

51:56

the same as sitting through an entire

51:58

trial. Right? In hearing

52:00

every piece of testimony

52:04

about every piece of evidence, all that stuff. And how it's

52:06

delivered? In house delivered? Sure. We got

52:08

some voice mails you wanna check those

52:09

out? I do. Hey,

52:12

Mike and Gidi. My name is Katelyn, and

52:14

I'm calling you from Dallas,

52:16

Texas. I'm a fairly new fan to

52:18

both TCAT

52:20

and Unsolved. I started listening a few months after my

52:22

friend died. Currently, her

52:24

death is unsolved. So

52:26

your podcast does two things

52:28

for me. One,

52:30

it gives me some good advice in terms of how to go about

52:32

trying to get her case solved. It gives

52:34

me some hope that it may get solved.

52:38

But also two, I 2, deep down. I know

52:40

her death may end up being unsolved for a

52:42

while, if not forever. And getting

52:44

lost in other stories kind of just

52:47

stacks me when thinking about that. When the

52:49

time comes, I want to share her story

52:51

with you to spread awareness and possibly get

52:53

people to come forward that know what

52:55

happened. Thanks

52:55

for all you do. It's a great show, and I

52:58

love that part of it is to help get

53:00

2 of these cases solved.

53:01

Keep making them, and I'll

53:03

keep listening. Thanks.

53:05

Well, obviously, very sorry to

53:07

hear about that. Yes. What

53:09

I will say is

53:13

right now, I am more hopeful

53:15

than I've ever been

53:18

about, you know, cases

53:20

being solved. They just named

53:22

the boy in the box. I know. And I don't think anybody

53:24

saw that coming before

53:29

you know, genetic genealogy, then you

53:31

could kinda see where maybe they

53:33

might be able to do something

53:35

with that. So I mean

53:37

every case is different, obviously, some cases they have DNA,

53:40

some they don't. Where

53:42

DNA is

53:44

involved though, man, there is

53:46

so much hope. There really is. So

53:48

whether whether it's an unsolved

53:50

murder or, you know, it's a

53:52

Jane Doe,

53:54

John Doe, unidentified person. So don't give up

53:55

hope. No, absolutely not. Hey, guys. This

53:58

is Allergan. I I was listening.

54:00

I had to take a break. I'm cleaning and

54:02

listening because I'm recently between

54:04

jobs, but extra time to listen. So

54:06

I realized what was going to a substitute 2

54:08

one was a known as Derkshire.

54:11

This is like the fifth episode

54:13

in the last maybe ten that I've listened

54:15

to 2 I've just mentioned

54:17

the Brady So I assume he was either very obsessed with

54:19

it or it's a popular speaking topic, miss because

54:22

I feel like even before the last ten episodes

54:24

I've heard, he's mentioned it before. So

54:27

It just cracked me up. I had to pause and just mention

54:29

it that I know you guys are doing

54:31

good, looking for some

54:33

successes. Thanks. Wow.

54:34

We must have had a a Brady Bunch face because don't remember us talking about the

54:37

Brady Bunch in a very long time. I

54:39

know. How my nose? How

54:42

my nose?

54:43

March on March on March on I do remember us saying

54:45

that -- Yeah. -- for whatever reason.

54:48

Yeah. And but we haven't

54:50

talked about it in a very long time, so it must have

54:52

been a little phased. We're going

54:54

through?

54:54

Hey, Mike. I can get you extra

54:56

favorite milk carrier from Ohio

54:59

and Florida. And I

55:01

actually spent the first twenty two years in my

55:03

life in Kentucky and then twenty two in Ohio and now four

55:05

down here. So you can do the math

55:07

on my age. But

55:09

I've listened to all 2 them solved,

55:12

unsolved, criminology, and now I just look

55:14

forward to Mondays because I'm not here on

55:16

the mail. For four or five hours a day. And so

55:18

Mondays now are better for me, but the rest of the

55:20

week leaves me hanging a little. I'm

55:22

doing a

55:24

little exploring So if you

55:26

can drop me a couple of hints on a

55:28

couple of podcasts you like, maybe I'll

55:30

listen to them and get

55:32

myself entertained. Begin. And also, Merry Christmas, and happy holidays

55:34

to you guys. And you don't have 2 this on there. I was

55:36

just calling to say, hey. And if

55:38

you all have any kind of meet and

55:40

greets up there in Ohio, let

55:42

me know, or just put it out there, and

55:44

I'll try to run through. So talk to you

55:46

guys later. Take

55:46

care. Bye. Can't

55:47

believe she was delivering mail at one years old in stroller.

55:50

So I'm planning on

55:53

there anyway. Because a lot of

55:55

people ask me, like, what other podcast

55:57

should I listen 2? Right?

55:59

The problem is I can't give them answers. And I think you're in

56:02

the same boat. I used

56:04

to listen to a number of True

56:06

Crime Podcasts. But what I

56:08

found was that once we

56:10

started doing hours, I couldn't

56:12

listen anymore. Yeah. I I

56:14

started to become fearful

56:16

that I was going to take I

56:18

was gonna use something that somebody said.

56:20

It was gonna get stuck in my head. So

56:22

I just don't listen to any of

56:24

them anymore. Yeah. So I don't even

56:27

know. of them. Now we meet people at

56:30

crime crime, too. Obviously, we've known

56:32

the true crime garage guys for a long

56:34

time. Yeah.

56:36

I really like that criminology one. She said she listens

56:38

to that one already. But there's

56:40

a lot of good ones out

56:42

there. I I just don't I

56:45

can't give recommendations because I don't listen to him anymore. Do you still

56:47

do your one

56:47

bath time with Fergie? Yeah. Yeah. That

56:50

one's not going too

56:52

great. 2. Back time

56:54

with Fergie. Alright, buddy.

56:56

That is it for another episode of

56:58

True Crime all the time. Unsolved. So

57:00

for Mike Man, Gipy. Stay safe

57:03

and keep your own time ticking.

57:36

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