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1:35

Hello,

1:36

everyone, and welcome to episode two

1:38

ninety two of the True Crime All The Time Unsolved

1:40

podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and

1:42

with me as always is my partner in True

1:44

Crime, Mike Gibson. Gimi, how are you?

1:46

doing good, man. About yourself. Hey, you know what? I'm

1:48

hanging in there this week. Week

1:50

to week, day to day. That's

1:53

how

1:53

we live our life, man. I was

1:55

just thinking about the intro, how much I like

1:57

it, you know? Yeah. And I remember when I used

1:59

to have lyrics to that.

1:59

And I noticed you you never really added

2:02

the lyrics in. No. I I didn't

2:04

think they played well. They weren't as good as

2:06

what you thought they were. I thought they were

2:08

amazing. You thought they were amazing. I

2:10

thought they were -- Yeah. -- so so.

2:13

on subpar, bordering

2:14

on horrendous. I just

2:16

repeated the, you

2:18

know, true

2:18

crime all the time unsolved, just

2:20

in Yeah. It was a little annoying. Yeah. But

2:22

I know you did really like him. Okay. Hey.

2:25

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs.

2:27

We had Aileen Messina. Hey, Aileen.

2:29

D. D. Pete's. kimberly

2:32

jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Kimberly.

2:34

John Engler. Well, I appreciate that, John.

2:36

Radio Ranch Camp. Well,

2:38

thank you, Radio Ranch. Abigail. What's

2:40

up, Abigail? Todd Albrach. Hey

2:43

Albrach. Tamika Alston jumped

2:45

out at her highest level. Awesome. Tamika.

2:47

Rose Smith. Hey, Smith. Sheila?

2:49

What's going on? Sheeshy Sheila. Aidan

2:52

Arnott. Aidan. Garrison

2:55

Shaffer. What's going on? Garrison

2:57

sounds like a wild west name.

2:59

Well, what about compared to

3:02

Carrie Wyatt? No. That's

3:04

definitely AYYY it was. I know. That's the main

3:06

name. I was looking at the next name. Carrie

3:08

Wyatt. We had Mo and Moore

3:10

Bird jump out at their highest level. Mo, it just

3:12

sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah.

3:14

Paul? Hey, Paul. Cassandra. Hey,

3:16

there's Cassandra. Christian Shook.

3:18

Was of sure? Ryan Nellums. Hey

3:21

Nellums. And last but not least, Kelsey.

3:23

Oh, man, Kelsey. So we appreciate all

3:25

that new Patreon support. And then if we

3:27

go back into the vault, This

3:30

week, we selected Anna. Hey.

3:32

I appreciate that, Anna. Anna, we definitely appreciate

3:34

the people that have stuck with us, you know,

3:36

for a very long time. We do. through

3:38

Patreon. We had PayPal donations,

3:41

big donation for a happy birthday to

3:43

Stefan from Jacqueline. Look at

3:45

Jacqueline, saying happy birthday to Stefan.

3:48

And we had a donation from Sherry Rohr

3:50

-- Hey, Sherry. -- and Alana Zemo.

3:52

Well, thank you, Zemo. So thanks to everyone.

3:55

I gives right now we have an episode

3:57

out on True Crime all the time. It's

3:59

about a man named Thomas Meek

4:02

who called to report that

4:05

his step brother, Sean,

4:07

killed a fourteen year

4:09

old girl named Sonya Song.

4:11

And this is a very different type of episode.

4:13

because, you know, basically, it becomes

4:17

Thomas Hangshankilder -- Yeah. --

4:19

and Sean's saying Thomas Kilder -- Yeah. --

4:21

he said he said, It is

4:23

that type of case for sure. But it's

4:25

out right now. Make sure you check it out.

4:27

Alright, buddy. Are you ready to get into this

4:29

episode of True Crime all the time, console? I

4:31

am ready. in nineteen eighty nine,

4:33

two toddlers, Christopher Dan's

4:35

B and Shane Walker, went

4:37

missing from the Martin Luther King

4:39

Junior Towers playground in

4:42

Harlem, New York. Their case

4:44

remains unsolved, and the boys have

4:46

never been found. Christopher Milton

4:48

DanSB was just two years old. when

4:50

he went missing.

4:51

Christopher was born on March thirtieth

4:54

nineteen eighty seven. His parents

4:56

are Alison Danzby and Milton

4:58

Westcott Robbins. Christopher

5:00

has an older brother whose

5:02

name is Lavonne. At the

5:04

time of his disappearance, Christopher

5:07

was talking You know, you could say things like

5:09

mama. You could say his older

5:11

brother's name. Those are

5:13

always fun events, you know. It's a fun

5:15

time. It really is.

5:18

for a parent. It's also a challenging

5:20

time. Yeah. But

5:21

it it's also very fun and rewarding

5:23

time. I don't know what your first word was. Wildcats.

5:25

cats

5:26

Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know.

5:28

It

5:29

or probably had something to do with food

5:31

because I

5:31

was a very hungry kid. Oh, were you? Oh, yeah.

5:33

Okay. Yeah. Christopher's

5:34

nickname was Chew Chew.

5:37

It's pretty fun. Yeah. Allison

5:39

told unsolved mysteries that

5:41

they spent a lot of time outside together.

5:43

They went to the parking lot. Shane

5:46

Anthony Walker was only

5:48

nineteen months old when he went missing.

5:50

Shane was born on December seventh in

5:52

nineteen eighty seven His parents

5:54

are Rosily Glover and James

5:56

Edward Walker, according to

5:58

CNN dot com. Rosys

6:01

said about Shane he smiled all

6:03

the time. He only laughed when

6:05

tickled, but he liked teddy bears

6:07

and monkeys. Rosa and Shane's

6:10

father briefly owned a pet chimpanzee.

6:12

That's kinda cool. That's kinda

6:14

cool. Can it also be dangerous?

6:17

Aren't chimpanzees? Sometimes

6:19

dangerous. Don't they have teeth and stuff? Yeah.

6:21

They are dangerous. mean, if they're not

6:23

properly trained or

6:25

-- Yeah. -- need to be careful. That's what I

6:27

thought. But apparently Shane liked

6:29

to feed the chimpanzee bananas

6:32

through his cage. So he

6:34

must have been a

6:35

pretty good champ. I guess, the

6:37

family also went on a trip to Disney

6:39

World before Shane went missing.

6:41

Shane loved the rides, but he was scared

6:43

of Mickey Mouse. And a lot of kids

6:45

are scared of those characters

6:48

there at Disney. Well, you

6:50

know, if you think about a nineteen

6:52

month old okay. Those characters

6:54

are pretty big. Yeah. I

6:56

wouldn't say Nikki is

6:59

scary to most, but, you

7:01

know, to a little kid, big

7:02

things are scary. Yeah. Big creatures.

7:05

Big ears. Big ears.

7:07

Christopher and Shane lived just

7:10

two floors apart with their mothers

7:12

in the same apartment building in

7:14

Harlem, New York called the

7:16

Martin Luther King Junior Towers

7:19

located at forty one West

7:21

one hundred and twelfth Street. Now

7:23

their mothers didn't know each other. BUT

7:26

THE DAILY NEWS REPORTED THAT

7:28

ROS'S KNEES HAD A FOLLOWING

7:30

OUT WITH ALLISON'S SISTER

7:32

OVER A GUY A DECADE EARLIER.

7:34

Looks like that six

7:36

degrees of separation. Yeah. Like

7:38

with Kevin Bacon. Yeah. How do I

7:40

know what you're thinking? I don't know.

7:43

because you haven't said a word, but

7:45

for some reason telepathy, I

7:47

don't know what it is. I

7:49

know what you're about ready to say or

7:51

trying to say. Yeah. When we're trying to

7:53

say right now? A bad

7:55

word about me because I had to

7:57

jump in and say what you were about to

7:59

say.

7:59

Maybe. Maybe not. But

8:01

you're right. I mean, this is kinda one of those small

8:04

world type of things. You

8:05

know, where these

8:06

people are living so close to gather just

8:09

too floors apart, they

8:11

don't know each other. Yeah. But they have

8:13

the kind of this sinuous connection through

8:15

other people and their their family.

8:18

on May eighteenth nineteen eighty

8:20

nine, two year old Christopher Danzby

8:23

went missing from the

8:25

Martin Luther King Junior Towers playground

8:28

at Lenox Avenue in a hundred

8:30

and fourteenth Street. Now most sources

8:32

said a hundred and fourteenth Street,

8:34

there were some sources that said

8:36

it was at a hundred and thirteenth Street,

8:38

but along with

8:38

a hundred and fourteenth because that's what most

8:41

sources said.

8:41

Christopher was with his mother

8:44

his grandmother Elizabeth Manley,

8:46

two ants, and adult cousin,

8:48

some other adults, and at least

8:50

five other children. Sounds like a

8:52

busy day. A big party

8:55

too,

8:55

to, you know, big group of people,

8:57

Alison

8:57

Dan's be left the park to

8:59

go to the store to buy food.

9:02

She didn't have a stroller with her so she

9:04

left Christopher at the park with his

9:06

relatives. According to the Daily

9:08

News, Alison's sister,

9:10

Adi Manley, watched Christopher

9:12

and his brother Lavonne.

9:14

I mean nothing now the ordinary there.

9:16

Right? People do that all the time. Yeah.

9:18

I mean, this is nothing where you would

9:20

say, oh, I can't believe that, you

9:22

know, this mother would do that.

9:25

She's got tons of relatives there,

9:27

family, friends. This

9:29

is much different than, you

9:31

know, a story of somebody leaving

9:33

a toddler in the

9:35

back seat while they run-in and buy,

9:37

you know, six pack of beer.

9:39

Right. We're not talking about, you know,

9:41

that scenario at all.

9:43

in my eyes. According to a

9:45

nineteen eighty nine news day article,

9:48

Christopher was playing ball with his

9:50

seven year old cousin, Elton, next

9:52

to a public restroom when

9:54

his grandmother Elizabeth last

9:56

saw him. She was talking to a friend.

9:58

She told News Day We turned

10:00

around and Christopher was

10:02

gone. And how many times

10:04

have we heard that? Too

10:06

many to recount? And it's

10:08

a it's a very, very sad

10:10

refrain. You know, when you think

10:12

about what people probably

10:14

recall is kind of like a split

10:16

second thing. you see the child

10:18

one minute, the next minute you

10:20

turn around and the

10:22

child is gone. You know, you and I have

10:24

often talked about experiences and

10:26

department stores and and

10:29

shopping centers and and things like that

10:31

where you know, for a

10:33

split second,

10:34

your whole world

10:36

crumbles. It does.

10:38

When you turn around in

10:40

your child is gone.

10:42

Now luckily, most of

10:44

the time, you find them very

10:47

quickly. They're in the next aisle. They've

10:49

just wandered off just a little bit,

10:51

but it is a very scary

10:53

thing. It really is. And

10:56

unlike a lot of things we talk about

10:58

in our true crime episodes, most

11:00

parents have experienced this. It

11:01

happens to the best parents in

11:04

the world. It does. I think like you said, so many

11:06

people can relate to that. She

11:07

said, when I didn't see him, I said,

11:10

where's Christopher? It was no

11:12

longer than five or ten minutes.

11:14

Eldon was out there. He doesn't think

11:16

about anybody when he's out there

11:18

playing. He says he doesn't know

11:20

what happened to Christopher He

11:22

must have walked back through the project.

11:24

I don't know. I'm just guessing. Elizabeth

11:27

told AP news that she

11:29

turned her head for a minute and my

11:31

grandchild was gone. Like you

11:32

said, it's all it takes. It just takes a

11:34

few seconds. When

11:36

Alison returned to the park about

11:38

twenty minutes later, she learned

11:40

that Christopher was gone. So that's

11:42

a gut punch. That is.

11:44

It's it's not like today where you'd probably

11:46

get a cell phone call right away.

11:48

You know, they didn't have cell phones.

11:50

You had to wait.

11:51

Yeah. They they weren't gonna

11:54

probably be able to reach her at the store or

11:56

anything like that. Everyone looked,

11:58

they couldn't find him. Christopher's

11:59

relatives told Alison

12:02

that he was playing with a red

12:04

ball. The Charlie project

12:06

website states that he had not brought a

12:08

red ball to the park, and

12:10

a red ball was not found

12:12

anywhere nearby. Yeah.

12:14

But if the family said he was playing with a red

12:16

ball, why would they

12:18

lie? Oh, that's not what I was thinking

12:20

at all. I was thinking that

12:23

maybe the red ball

12:25

was used to lure him.

12:27

And that's why nobody

12:29

knew where it came from and they never

12:31

found it. that makes

12:33

good sense to me. That that's what I was

12:35

thinking. Carolyn Manley,

12:37

Christopher's aunt, said in the two

12:39

thousand twenty unsolved mystery's

12:41

episode on the case. I had

12:43

him one minute and someone else had

12:45

him the next. It wasn't like

12:47

one person was in the park with

12:49

all these kids. It was like five of us

12:51

in the park watching the kids. And

12:54

out of all the kids, Chu

12:56

Chu was the only one missing.

12:57

Christopher's brother,

12:59

Lavonne Danzby, said in a

13:02

nineteen ninety one daily news

13:04

article, we was playing and

13:06

Chuchu got lost I didn't

13:08

see him. I called my mommy. I

13:10

said, I don't see choo choo.

13:11

He just got lost where he was sliding

13:14

and playing on the swings. I felt

13:16

mad. I think somebody took

13:18

him. I want newspapers to

13:20

write about him. If somebody

13:22

has him, If they see that he's

13:24

choo choo, they can bring him

13:26

to my house with my name on

13:28

him. That's just a brother, miss, and

13:30

his brother. That's a freaking tear

13:32

jerker. Yeah. Man, to think about

13:35

this young boy saying

13:37

this, you know, about

13:39

his his brother. Allison

13:42

and her family searched the park that

13:44

day, and they asked if anyone had

13:46

seen a little boy matching

13:48

Christopher's description Allison

13:50

called the New York police department,

13:52

and officers began searching for

13:54

him. They canvassed the ten

13:56

building Kings Towers complex

13:58

on the night that Christopher

13:59

went missing. They went door to door

14:02

asking residents about Christopher. So

14:04

they're doing what they should be doing.

14:06

Well, and and they jumped on it very quickly.

14:09

I'm assuming Gibbs

14:11

because of this young boy's age. Yeah. That

14:13

means a toddler. Right? Right. And now

14:15

if if he was seventeen,

14:18

eighteen, nineteen, we

14:20

might be telling a different story.

14:22

Sure. But you're never gonna hear

14:25

Police say that a nineteen month

14:27

old may be with

14:29

friends

14:29

or went

14:31

out and don't worry because they'll be

14:33

back later. there's only a few

14:35

nineteen months old that I know that could Yeah.

14:38

You could have handled it. Yeah. But you're

14:40

just not gonna hear that from

14:42

police and you shouldn't. According to

14:44

retired NYPD inspector,

14:46

Ken Lindahl, who appeared on

14:48

unsolved mysteries, a dog

14:50

followed Christopher Sen.

14:52

south on Lenox to a

14:55

hundred and tenth Street, and then the

14:57

dog lost the scent.

14:59

Lindahl also said there was a park

15:01

entrance on Lenox Avenue.

15:03

And there was a hole in the fence

15:05

that a lot of kids used.

15:07

There were many entrances and

15:09

exits to the park. and it's

15:11

located on a very busy street. It

15:13

sounds like

15:13

anybody could have come and left

15:15

and plenty

15:16

of access. I think that's what he's saying. Right?

15:18

There were a lot of places

15:21

where somebody could have

15:24

taken Christopher out of

15:26

this park. there was

15:27

a lot more than just one entrance and

15:29

exit. And then you gotta wonder if the dog

15:31

lost a scent. Was that because cause

15:34

the child was placed in a vehicle. Well, I

15:36

think

15:36

a lot of times that's what

15:38

you think. Because how does the

15:40

scent just disappear? Well,

15:42

it can disappear if

15:44

someone's placed in a vehicle, and then

15:46

that that vehicle drives away. Right?

15:48

Right? A dog's not gonna be able to

15:50

follow that sin. On May

15:51

nineteenth nineteen eighty nine,

15:54

the police searched a twenty four

15:56

square block area of Harlem with

15:58

dogs, a helicopter,

16:00

and a scuba diving team,

16:02

over seventy city and housing

16:04

authority police searched for Christopher at

16:06

the Taft houses, a housing

16:08

project across the street also

16:11

had the scuba diving unit search a

16:13

pond at the north end of

16:15

Central Park. Custodial workers

16:17

at King's Towers searched

16:19

through the dumpster. there was a one

16:21

thousand dollar reward for information

16:23

on Christopher's whereabouts. So,

16:25

you know, I I do believe that

16:28

his disappearance was taken

16:30

very seriously. Yes. It

16:32

does seem as though a

16:34

good deal of resources were put

16:36

into finding him. Yeah. It seems like

16:38

all hands on deck. It does

16:40

seem that way. Now you could always

16:42

have more people. So you can

16:44

always make the case for that if you could.

16:46

But it doesn't seem as though it was

16:48

dismissed. I I will say that. According

16:51

to Newsday, The

16:52

bureau of child welfare was

16:54

also involved in the case, captain

16:56

Michael Ficchio of the

16:58

housing authority said whether

17:00

there was negligence involved,

17:02

we don't know. And I think,

17:04

you know, you could take that statement a

17:06

couple of different ways. you

17:08

can take it on face value just as they don't know. They

17:10

they haven't looked into it. They they don't

17:12

have any facts. Right. Or

17:15

you can Take it as though

17:17

they're looking into whether

17:19

negligence

17:19

was involved. Kind of thinking

17:21

there was. But

17:23

from the story that we've told so

17:25

far and kind of the facts we

17:27

gathered and as we know them, it

17:29

it doesn't seem as though

17:31

there

17:31

was what I would

17:34

term

17:34

good negligence. Should

17:35

you be watching the child at

17:37

all times? Yeah. Yeah. I

17:40

get that. But is it natural for people

17:42

to turn around when they're in the

17:44

company of a bunch of family

17:46

and friends? sure it

17:48

is. And thank, oh, we're among family and

17:50

friends. Everybody's safe. And -- Yeah. --

17:52

the search continued on May

17:55

twentieth. The police searched door

17:57

to door. They had

17:59

aviation and canine units on

18:01

standby. On May twenty second,

18:03

papers reported that The

18:05

police wanted to question a man

18:07

about Christopher's disappearance. A

18:09

sketch of what this man might look like

18:11

was published in the papers.

18:13

A nineteen eighty nine News article states

18:16

that the man was not considered a

18:18

suspect. But the police

18:20

believed he was near the playground when

18:23

Christopher disappeared. According to the

18:25

Daily News, a police spokesman

18:27

said we think he may have been

18:29

picking up another chop. he may have

18:31

seen something. Well, they think they might have a

18:33

eye witness. Maybe if they

18:35

can talk to him, he can

18:37

say, you know, I did see

18:40

that

18:40

child that matches that description or or that picture that

18:42

you have. And then I saw this man or

18:44

-- Yeah. -- this woman or or whatever.

18:47

Now here's my question to

18:49

you. If your

18:50

picture is in

18:51

the paper or

18:53

or an artist's

18:55

sketch

18:55

of you -- Right. is in the paper

18:57

and police say we wanna talk to

19:00

you. But you're not a suspect. We

19:02

think you were just there. Do you

19:04

believe that? I would probably

19:06

not believe that. Yeah. I I just wonder how

19:08

many people would be

19:10

very leery

19:12

of coming forward? Because what are the

19:15

police going to say? Hey,

19:17

we think this is the person who's hooking, please

19:19

come forward? Yeah. We know know this is

19:21

a picture of you. Just come on in and say, yeah. No. They're

19:23

gonna say, Don't worry about

19:25

it. We don't think you're a suspect. We just

19:27

wanna talk to you. Maybe

19:29

the whole time they think you're a suspect.

19:31

So I'd be pretty cautious, to be

19:33

honest with you. Whether I had done

19:35

something or not? And I and I hate to say

19:37

that because I always

19:40

would think I'd wanna help if

19:42

I could shed any light

19:44

on what happened

19:46

to a child that's gone missing.

19:48

But at the same time, I would be

19:50

very leery that police were trying

19:52

to pin this thing on me that I had nothing to

19:54

do with. I would be like, is there a eight hundred number

19:56

I can call you on and just tell you

19:59

anonymously?

19:59

Yeah. The man

20:01

was described as black

20:03

five nine and clean shaven

20:05

with a mustache and a large

20:07

pink scar on the right side

20:09

of his face. The sketch of the man shows him with

20:12

Dredblah. According to the Charlie

20:14

project, a seven year old boy

20:16

living in the neighborhood, told

20:18

the police that he saw Christopher walking on

20:20

a hundred and eleven street

20:23

later that day. The young boy

20:25

said that Christopher was with a

20:27

thin black man with dreadlocks

20:29

between the ages twenty five

20:31

and thirty and said he was about

20:33

six foot tall. number one, that's

20:35

a pretty good description from a seven year

20:37

old. It really is. You wonder how

20:40

much he

20:40

was led to those?

20:43

Yeah. Yeah.

20:43

Because for a seven year old to just come

20:45

out and say, you know, this man was between

20:47

twenty five and thirty. He was six foot tall.

20:49

I I don't see that happening. No.

20:51

I don't either. Now could you

20:54

have police saying, was he this tall? Was

20:56

he, you know, maybe they're they've got some other

20:58

policemen. Right. Was he closer to this

21:00

guy or this guy? was he old this

21:02

guy older, you know.

21:04

Yeah. I can

21:04

see that being more of the Maybe that that's

21:06

the way that it could have gone down.

21:09

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situations. According to Alison on

22:19

unsolved mysteries, Christopher's

22:21

father lived in Florida at the time

22:23

he went missing. He came to New

22:25

York to meet with the police and

22:28

tell them what he knew. There was no

22:30

indication that he was involved in

22:32

Christopher's disappearance. Oh, that's

22:34

an obvious. person of interest.

22:36

Right? It's somebody that you would have to

22:38

look at, you know,

22:40

father who doesn't live with

22:42

the child he have taken

22:44

him? You you have to rule that out.

22:46

Yeah, I think so. Almost

22:48

three months later, another

22:50

Toddler went missing from the same park.

22:52

On August tenth nineteen eighty

22:54

nine, at five twenty five PM,

22:58

Shane Walker went missing from the

23:00

Martin Luther King junior towers'

23:02

playground. According to

23:04

CNN, Rosa Glover had the

23:06

day off. She took Shane to the

23:08

playground in the early evening.

23:10

Shane was sitting on a park bench with

23:12

Rosa eating some

23:14

chips. when two children, a brother and sister,

23:17

aged five and ten, approached

23:19

her and asked to play with

23:21

Shane. Rosa told them he's

23:23

young, and they responded, we don't

23:26

mind. According to Newsday,

23:28

Rosa thought this was a little

23:30

strange because They were several

23:32

years older than Shane. She

23:34

allowed the kids though to push Shane in a

23:36

swing, and she watched them from

23:38

park bench. They

23:40

played near a slide. Rosa

23:42

said about the kids, I didn't know their names, but

23:44

I see them in the building, so I

23:46

wasn't worried when they asked to play with

23:48

Shane. A man sat beside Rosa and

23:51

began talking to her according to

23:53

a nineteen eighty nine news day

23:55

article. This was an elderly neighbor.

23:58

According to CNN, demands

23:59

started talking about crime and

24:02

how things happen to children.

24:04

According to PIX eleven,

24:06

The man also talked about parents not paying

24:08

enough attention to their children. He

24:10

talked about kidnapping and

24:13

showed Rosa some had

24:15

from fights. Okay.

24:17

Talkative,

24:18

neighbor,

24:19

some bizarre stuff

24:20

in there though. Yeah.

24:22

elderly, you

24:24

know, but what

24:25

I got from this is

24:28

there's a lot of different types of

24:30

conversations. There's pleasant, you

24:32

know, how about those yankees? What

24:34

do you think about this weather? Yeah. You

24:36

know, there's that type of conversation

24:39

And then there's kids are getting

24:42

kidnapped. And, you know,

24:43

you're talking to a mother with a young

24:46

child. It just seems like very

24:48

strange things to say. It's

24:49

a little spooky. Yeah. I

24:51

thought so. According to a nineteen

24:54

eighty nine daily news article,

24:56

she took her attention away from

24:58

the kids for no longer than three

25:00

to four minutes. And apparently,

25:02

Rosa turned her head briefly to

25:04

look at demand scars

25:07

when she turned back, Shane

25:09

was gone. Well, it doesn't

25:10

take long. We know that. No. You know,

25:13

even if kids

25:14

are just, you know, hiding from me to be funny

25:17

or if they just walked off with

25:19

another kid, it just doesn't take

25:21

more than a few seconds. So if she turned her head

25:23

for a few minutes, But

25:24

Rosa told News Day there were no shouts, no

25:27

screams of mommy. She said

25:29

that's the hard part. I didn't hear

25:31

anything. She also said that she was

25:33

confused because Shane was

25:35

a a clean child who

25:37

fast when strangers tried to

25:39

pick him up. She couldn't think of anyone he

25:42

knew well that would

25:44

have

25:44

taken him. So I think

25:46

you can see where her thinking

25:48

is kinda right then in that moment,

25:51

her thought was it might be hard for

25:53

a stranger because he was gonna

25:55

cry. He was going to, you

25:56

know, carry on. Yeah. but

25:58

I can envision some

26:01

scenarios as hard as they are to

26:03

talk about, you know, where

26:05

an doctor could put

26:07

his or her hand.

26:08

over the mouth of a child

26:10

and

26:11

be gone in the blink of an eye?

26:13

Or,

26:13

like, in the case of the

26:15

earlier child, if you have

26:17

red ball that the kid finds fascinating.

26:20

You roll it past them, they go after it,

26:22

and they're far enough away from the mom that

26:25

Nobody sees them. Nobody sees them. And maybe if they

26:27

even do, making a sound that

26:29

they might be far enough a way that it's

26:31

gonna blend with all the other noise around you.

26:33

But here's the thing. It

26:34

wasn't only Shane who was gone, the

26:37

two kids that were playing with

26:39

him were also gone. Rosa

26:41

walked around the park looking for

26:43

Shane, SHE EVEN SEARCHED

26:45

ANOTHER NEARBY PLAYGROWN WHEN SHE RETURNED TO

26:47

THE KING TOWER'S PLAYGRAM, SHE

26:50

SAW THE TWO CHILDREN COME

26:52

BACK INTO THE PARK through

26:54

a hole in the wire fence. She asked them where

26:57

Shane was, and they said they had

26:59

left him in the park. Now we

27:01

said these kids were five

27:04

and ten years old. There are

27:06

stories out there of

27:08

ten year olds committing very

27:11

serious nasty crimes, murders, we've

27:13

we've covered it. We've covered it.

27:16

But by and large, it's

27:18

hard to think that a

27:20

brother and sister five and

27:22

ten years old would

27:24

hurt this this young child. It's

27:26

hard to think that. It's not

27:28

impossible. But we've

27:29

also

27:30

have heard about cases where

27:32

kids

27:32

are used to

27:34

help

27:35

kidnap kids. fewer other kids. Right. Yeah. There's

27:37

a lot to kinda take in here for

27:40

sure. At first, Rosa

27:42

said she thought chain was with the children.

27:44

So she didn't panic right away when

27:46

she didn't see them, but when

27:48

she saw the older kids

27:50

without chain. That's be

27:52

that's when she became really worried. And then

27:54

I think the terror set in

27:56

Gibbs when the two children said

27:58

that they had left him in

27:59

the park. No. I get

28:01

it. I would be terrified too. Yeah.

28:03

I I think any parent would. Rosa

28:05

immediately went to the Harlem twenty ninth

28:07

pre synced station house to report Shane

28:10

missing. And within hours,

28:12

helicopters and police were

28:14

searching for Shane. So, again, here

28:17

we're seeing police spring into action very

28:20

quickly. They're using resources to

28:22

try to find this

28:24

child. Both of the children who had

28:26

been playing with Shane were questioned

28:28

by the police, but were eventually

28:31

released The police also

28:33

interviewed the man who spoke to

28:35

Rosa and released him.

28:37

They spoke with some other witnesses

28:39

and came up with a description of a man

28:42

that they were seeking. The description

28:44

was of a black man between the

28:46

ages of nineteen and twenty

28:48

four about five eight

28:50

wearing a yellow shirt and

28:52

acid washed jeans. You don't

28:54

see a lot of acid washed jeans today?

28:57

or maybe you do, maybe it's come back into

29:00

style. I don't know because I don't

29:02

keep up with trends. But you

29:04

did see a lot of them in nineteen eighty nine.

29:06

You do. and you and I both wore

29:08

a lot of them. Maybe they're in my closet.

29:10

Probably still are. Not that I ever be able to wear

29:12

them to get back down to that waist size. But

29:14

I I think one of the things that has

29:16

to jump out here is,

29:18

you

29:18

know, that on

29:20

some level these descriptions

29:23

are fairly close to each other. The height

29:25

is a little different.

29:27

But remember,

29:28

you know, the first

29:29

description came from a seven year old.

29:32

So

29:32

six

29:33

foot versus five eight,

29:35

but they're somewhat similar.

29:37

On August eleventh, dozens of

29:39

city and housing officers patrolled

29:41

the streets with a sound truck to spread

29:44

information about Shane's description

29:46

and when he was lassing.

29:50

So, you know, that's interesting. Thinking

29:52

back to the time that we're in

29:54

here, nineteen eighty nine, you

29:56

know.

29:56

There's no Facebook. No

29:57

Amber alerts. There's no Amber alert.

30:00

And there were very few

30:02

cellphones. Right? Who had a cell phone back

30:03

then? Extremely rich people

30:06

I'm assuming it was the big brick phone that

30:08

people have seen. Maybe

30:10

back then. Maybe. Yeah.

30:12

But if if

30:13

there were, that's probably what it

30:15

was. So very few people had them.

30:17

So what

30:18

you see is them driving a

30:20

truck around, basically talking

30:23

into you

30:23

know, like a big mister microphone happened

30:26

to those.

30:26

And trying to spread information

30:29

about. Today, hey,

30:31

that information would hit people's

30:33

phones in about ten

30:35

seconds.

30:35

That's the difference. Yeah. For

30:38

sure. Yeah. Plus it'd be plastic all over

30:40

the all The news, the

30:42

Well, and there again, nineteen

30:44

eighty nine, the news was gonna

30:46

come on at What? They probably

30:49

had a midday -- Yeah. -- eleven

30:51

twelve, and then they had a six o'clock and then

30:53

eleven o'clock. Yeah. I don't know

30:55

when CNN started It was probably before But

30:57

they didn't have the twenty four seven

30:59

like they do today, honestly. But back

31:01

to the mister

31:02

microphone. I had

31:04

one. You're probably one of those guys that would that would

31:06

used it a lot, didn't you? Yeah. Just

31:08

like in the commercial too, because I used the roller

31:10

skate. Oh, yeah. in the like, hey. Say

31:12

that again. I'll be back to pick you up

31:15

later. Like, there's so many people that

31:17

have no idea what we're talking about. And

31:19

then there's people that do that

31:21

are probably laughing there, you know what? Yeah. I'm sure

31:23

you might be able to find that commercial on YouTube. Oh,

31:26

I guarantee you can. So the

31:28

police questioned Rose and her

31:30

family members According to Rosa, the

31:32

police thought that a family member

31:34

might have taken Shane from the

31:36

park, but police eventually

31:38

concluded that Shane was likely

31:40

not abducted by a relative.

31:43

The police also looked into the

31:45

two children's parents, but

31:47

they couldn't find any evidence connecting

31:50

them to these cases. And

31:52

I I think you said it earlier, gives,

31:54

and it kinda holds true.

31:56

for almost every case we do. And

31:58

do the police kind of

31:59

work their way

32:02

from the inside out

32:03

in a lot of cases? Right? If a wife

32:06

dies, they look at the husband, they look at the

32:08

boyfriend. Yeah. You're gonna go with

32:09

the obvious things first. Right? Yeah.

32:11

The people

32:12

closest to the victims

32:14

and then work your way

32:17

out. Over one hundred detectives

32:19

questioned residents and

32:21

searched abandoned buildings for

32:23

Shane after Shane went missing,

32:26

Rosa Glover received a phone

32:28

call about shane being buried

32:30

in an abandoned building.

32:32

Authorities searched for him in this

32:34

building but didn't find anything. And

32:36

again, I hate to

32:37

keep saying it, but, you know, this is

32:39

something that we see all

32:41

too often,

32:42

and it's sickening. What we're

32:44

talking about is absolutely horrible.

32:46

Right? The abduction of children,

32:48

but then you have someone

32:51

who reads about it in the

32:53

newspaper. They see it on a a

32:55

newscast, and

32:56

for whatever reason, for whatever

32:58

sick reason they

33:00

think you know what would be fun

33:02

to call

33:04

the mother of one of these missing

33:07

children children

33:08

and mess with them. Yeah. Give them

33:10

some false hope? It's it's

33:13

brutal. Who thinks like

33:13

that? Fortunately, there's

33:15

people who do.

33:17

So two abductions of

33:19

children that

33:20

happened pretty close

33:23

together. But at first, the

33:25

police declined to link to

33:27

two cases And really what they said was that they thought the

33:29

descriptions of the possible suspects

33:31

were just too different. I said I

33:33

thought they were fairly close

33:35

I mean, obviously, there are differences. Sure.

33:38

I mentioned the height, I mentioned the dreadlocks,

33:41

but I also think that

33:43

a lot of people don't do well

33:45

with heights. and other characteristics. We

33:47

talked about how they most

33:49

likely brought somebody in

33:51

to help the

33:52

child determine what

33:54

the height

33:55

of the suspect might have

33:57

been.

33:57

I would need that.

33:59

I just couldn't randomly

34:00

say, I think they

34:02

were six foot tall. Yeah. I do think

34:04

it's very hard when you see

34:07

somebody if they're not

34:08

standing buy somebody

34:10

that and and you know that person's

34:12

height. Now if somebody walks next

34:14

to me or buy me, obviously, I

34:16

can tell how tall they are because I

34:18

know how tall I Right. But if they're standing all

34:21

by themselves, unless there's a sign

34:23

next to them that says, what six

34:25

feet tall is, I'm gonna struggle

34:28

a little bit. Yeah. Especially if there's some

34:30

distance too. Yeah. And we don't

34:32

know what that was for this seven

34:34

year old. According to News Day, chief of

34:36

detectives Robert Calangelo told

34:38

reporters at a

34:40

news conference The descriptions

34:42

of the possible perpetrators do

34:44

not match. We do not feel at this

34:46

time that the same person abducted both

34:50

children. Kallangelo said they were looking for a light

34:52

skinned black man seen in the

34:54

neighborhood when Shane went missing.

34:57

he was wearing a yellow shirt

34:59

and stonewashed jeans. According

35:01

to Newsday on August

35:03

thirteenth, the police finished a

35:05

fifty square block first sweep of the

35:07

area where the boys went missing. Captain Daniel McKenna of

35:10

the Manhattan detective

35:12

bureau said that the

35:14

disappearances were apparently

35:16

but not definitely related to

35:18

each other. Nothing has given

35:21

us a definitely There are people that we want

35:23

to talk to that were seen in the park, but there is no one out

35:26

there who saw anyone take

35:28

a shot. McKenna

35:30

also said there is nothing to

35:32

indicate that the children's families have

35:34

any knowledge of

35:36

the disappearance. So there's a

35:38

little bit of a change here. There is. From no link

35:40

to, apparently,

35:42

but not definitely.

35:45

related

35:45

to each other. Why not just use the word

35:48

maybe? Yeah. Apparently,

35:48

not definitely sounds a little

35:51

strange. It does. According to the

35:53

Daily News on August four Keith

35:55

nineteen eighty nine. The police did link to two cases. The

35:57

Manhattan chief of detective said

35:59

the cases may

36:02

be a part of a

36:04

conspiracy to steal or

36:06

sell babies. Manhattan chief

36:08

of detectives Ronald Finrick

36:10

said whoever abducted

36:12

these children is related

36:14

by some type of

36:16

conspiracy to steal the children

36:18

or in selling the children. So

36:19

is just a day later

36:21

And changing

36:22

rapidly. Sure. Yeah. Seems

36:24

like they must

36:25

be having some internal information coming

36:27

in and making that

36:30

decision. Well,

36:30

see, that's the thing. They don't say

36:32

what information is leading

36:34

them to, you know, this

36:38

theory According to an August sixteenth nineteen eighty nine New

36:40

York Times article, this theory

36:42

perplexed officials of child

36:46

adoption services who

36:47

observed that it was

36:49

not difficult to

36:52

adopt a black child in

36:54

New York. Chief Fenrick told reporters who questioned him about

36:56

this. Someone who wants a baby

36:58

who is not qualified to adopt

37:00

a baby

37:02

might steal a baby or hire someone to do so.

37:04

Okay. Both of those things

37:06

could

37:06

be true. Sure. We've

37:09

the hurt stories of that before.

37:10

People going into hospitals

37:12

and taking a baby because they wanted a baby

37:14

back before they put

37:16

all those security protocols that

37:19

you go through now when you have a baby at a hospital.

37:21

And it

37:21

also could be true. And I assume it is

37:24

if this came from child adoption

37:26

services that it was

37:28

not difficult in nineteen eighty nine to adopt a

37:30

black child in New York. And that's why I

37:32

think I said, you know, both of those things could

37:34

be true.

37:36

But like the chief said, what if you had someone who

37:38

knew they would not be eligible

37:41

to adopt a

37:42

to adopt a child child? Yeah. Could

37:44

they resort to stealing a child? Sure? Sure.

37:46

They could. I think so. Elaine Rosenfeld,

37:49

executive director of

37:52

Louise Weiservices. told

37:54

the AP in an August sixteenth nineteen

37:56

eighty nine article, it's hard

37:58

to imagine. There is a

38:00

black market for white babies

38:03

but for black babies, I don't think so.

38:05

Alright. That's a tough statement. It

38:08

is. But

38:08

is it wrong? Is

38:09

it incorrect? or was it

38:12

incorrect in nineteen eighty nine? I think

38:14

that's the question. It's a tough

38:16

statement to say and a tough statement

38:18

to hear. but you

38:20

have to determine the voracity

38:22

because it

38:23

could be, you

38:24

know, a component to this

38:26

case. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If the chief

38:29

is coming out and saying that there

38:30

could be a conspiracy here

38:34

to

38:34

steal babies and sell them. well, is there or

38:36

is there not a a market?

38:38

Or was there? I'm saying is, but we're

38:40

talking about back in nineteen ninety nine.

38:42

AP

38:43

reported that chief enric said no one that

38:45

we have found yet has

38:46

seen anybody with the child, taking

38:48

the child by the hand, carrying

38:52

it, leading it, taking it through a fence,

38:54

or leaving the playground.

38:56

Two black men, similar

38:58

only in their dreadlock hairstyles,

39:01

were being for questioning. But other than that,

39:04

he really didn't give much in the way of

39:06

details. True crime all the

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40:16

CATHERINE ENSINO, DIRECTOR OF THE ADOTION

40:18

DEPARTMENT AND SPINCE CHAAPON TOLD

40:20

THE AP. I HAVE NOT

40:22

HEARD OF KIDNAPPING ANY CHILDREN of

40:25

that age to satisfy the

40:28

wishes of adoptive couples.

40:30

I can't picture the end result

40:34

of kidnapping being adoption. People have used

40:36

babies

40:36

as fronts for illegal activities.

40:38

Children are being sold

40:42

for drugs. Then

40:42

I was a little unsure of what she meant by

40:44

this statement. I'm thinking

40:47

she means that an adoptive

40:50

couple is unlikely to

40:52

have somebody kidnap a baby for

40:54

them. That's that's what I think

40:57

she's saying. Yeah. But is it

40:59

unlikely that someone who

41:02

wants a child for

41:04

themselves would

41:05

take one? and

41:07

I don't know that it is. I mean, I

41:08

think if you want something bad enough, some people

41:11

will do whatever

41:13

it takes. Yeah. No

41:15

matter how horrible it may

41:17

be. Sadly, but true. According to

41:19

the Daily News, Fenwick pointed out

41:21

the similarities in the two cases saying

41:23

although we have different descriptions. We're

41:26

not excluding the possibility

41:28

he is the same man. So

41:30

they they are

41:31

kind of flipping

41:33

back and forth, I think.

41:35

And maybe it's depend

41:36

on who is saying

41:39

this stuff. But

41:40

you know, it went from we

41:42

don't think to we think it could be. We think

41:44

the descriptions are different. Now we

41:46

think it could possibly be the same

41:50

man. I think you have

41:52

to keep your options for it. Wow, that's something that you and I say all the time.

41:54

Why close something off

41:58

so quickly?

41:58

quickly and just,

41:59

you

41:59

know, and be so absolute about it

42:02

and say, it can't

42:04

possibly be this. Doesn't that

42:06

hurt an

42:08

investigation? And I would answer that, yeah, I think it does in a lot of

42:10

cases. The same way that getting

42:12

tunnel vision and fixating on

42:14

one person to the exclusion of

42:18

others. hurts cases. The police noted six similarities

42:20

between the two cases. Christopher

42:22

and Shane lived in the

42:24

same building at King Towers Christopher

42:27

and Shane went missing from the same

42:30

playground. They went missing from

42:32

the same area of

42:34

the

42:34

playground. and

42:35

they both went missing on

42:37

a Thursday and both

42:40

around the same time, around

42:42

seven PM in five PM. And the sixth

42:44

similarity was a little strange. The

42:46

police came out and said that both

42:48

kids went

42:50

missing while they were with the

42:52

same siblings. So boy and a girl aged

42:54

five and ten. Now we talked about

42:57

these siblings in

42:59

the second abduction. But there wasn't anything in the research about

43:01

them in the first one. But then the police came

43:04

out and said that they were

43:06

there in both

43:08

instances.

43:09

though So I

43:10

don't know. I put it in because I

43:12

think it was important because the

43:14

police came out and said they thought the

43:16

children might have been decoys. but

43:19

then they later said that they

43:21

questioned them and they didn't find

43:23

any indication they were involved. So I don't know

43:25

it was a little muddy As far

43:27

as the research went, we

43:30

mentioned it. Two black men with

43:32

dreadlock hairstyles were being sought

43:34

for questioning. deputy chief

43:36

Ronald Fenrick told the New York Times that

43:38

the police couldn't determine if

43:40

the same person took the two boys HE

43:42

SAID WE'VE LINKED THE CHILDREN'S ABduction BUT NOT TO THE

43:45

SAME PERSON. ACCORDING TO THE DAILY

43:47

NEWS, THE BROTHER INSIST told

43:49

the police that they didn't see anyone

43:52

take Shane or Christopher. Fenderick

43:54

also said on August fourteenth,

43:56

we've investigated the backgrounds of

43:58

their parents throughout, and

44:00

there's no reason to believe. They are involved

44:02

in this conspiracy. So

44:04

again, here's another article where this

44:07

brother in sister, five and ten year

44:09

old siblings, show up, come

44:11

into play, in in both

44:13

cases. But there

44:14

just wasn't any information

44:18

specific details around them

44:20

in the first one that

44:21

I found. The

44:22

Daily News reported that the two

44:24

children's names were Crystal and Kevin.

44:26

Crystal said, I didn't see a man take Shane. I

44:28

saw him sitting with him. I

44:30

heard Shane's mother crying and

44:32

she was looking for him. Shane's

44:36

aunt, Barbara Glover, told the Daily News

44:38

that Rosa tried not to think

44:40

about the link between the cases.

44:42

Rose might feel that there is a black

44:44

market ring out there. she won't

44:46

get him back. According to

44:48

Barbara, Rosa was convinced

44:50

that this brother and

44:52

sister played a role. Again, we're talking

44:54

about five and ten year

44:56

olds. According to The New York Times,

44:58

other theories were abduction by

45:00

a pedophile. or simply

45:02

by a person who wished

45:04

to harm a child. Both are

45:05

very scary. The

45:07

city offered a thirty

45:09

thousand dollar reward. which is a really good

45:11

reward back then. It's a high dollar amount

45:14

compared to many rewards

45:16

that we talk about. we

45:19

had a thousand dollar reward on our t cat

45:21

episode, I think. Yeah. Which

45:23

it's not nothing But

45:27

again, when you're talking about people coming

45:29

forward and

45:29

rolling on

45:30

someone or giving

45:34

them up,

45:35

Obviously, the higher the dollar

45:37

amount is, the more likely that is to

45:39

happen. You definitely gotta find a way to

45:41

entice them. The disappearance of a third

45:43

baby, one month old Andrei

45:45

Terrence Bryant, who went missing in March

45:47

nineteen eighty nine, was thought to be connected

45:49

to Christopher and

45:52

Shane's cases. on August

45:54

fifteenth nineteen eighty nine,

45:56

deputy chief Fenwick said

45:57

that they were looking into the

45:59

abduction of Andrei Bryant He also said

46:02

that they would review the

46:04

kidnapping of infant Carolina

46:06

White in August nineteen

46:08

eighty seven from

46:10

Harlem hospital. In Brooklyn,

46:12

New York, Andre Bryant went

46:14

missing on March twenty ninth, nineteen

46:16

eighty nine, on the

46:18

twenty twenty five year old Monique Rivera was taking her

46:20

baby Andre and her two

46:22

older sons for a while.

46:24

According to the

46:26

Charlie project, She encountered two women driving

46:28

a nineteen eighty eight or nineteen

46:30

eighty nine Burgundy Pontiac

46:32

Grand Am Sports

46:34

Edition with tinted

46:36

windows possibly with Maryland

46:38

license plates. My very

46:40

first

46:40

car was a nineteen

46:42

eighty six grand dam.

46:44

Really? Yeah. I loved that car. I remember those

46:46

grand ams. One

46:47

of the women was approximately

46:49

thirty years old.

46:51

She was described As

46:54

a heavy sat black woman with a dark complexion wearing

46:58

sunglasses, the other woman was about

47:00

twenty two

47:02

years old either Hispanic or black with long red

47:04

hair and a lighter

47:06

complexion. She was wearing a red

47:08

leather jacket and

47:10

white pants. Monique

47:12

later said that she might have

47:14

known one of the women from middle

47:16

school. The two women spoke to

47:18

her and asked to hold

47:20

baby Andrey. they convinced Monique to go shopping with

47:22

them. Monique bought an outfit from a

47:24

store called Canadians. The

47:26

two women bought her pants and

47:28

a shirt. then took her

47:30

home. Monique told her husband,

47:32

Timothy Bryant, that the women

47:34

used a fraudulent credit card to

47:36

buy the clothes. She also said

47:38

she planned to go shopping with them in white

47:40

planes the next day.

47:42

Timothy's sister, Patricia, agreed to

47:44

babysit while she

47:46

went out. On March twenty ninth nineteen eighty nine, Patricia

47:48

went to Monique's apartment to baby

47:50

sit, the two women called

47:52

Monique from a nearby

47:54

pay phone. and asked her to

47:56

meet them rather than stop by her apartment. They also insisted

47:58

that she bring Andre

47:59

with her. Monique

48:02

laughter two older children with Patricia. Monique

48:04

was last seen getting into a

48:07

vehicle with the women outside her

48:09

apartment at two PM. So

48:11

obviously, there's

48:12

a little bit of a difference

48:14

here. Right? The Charlie

48:16

project says that they asked her

48:18

to meet them. But then it seems like they must

48:20

have agreed to come get her since

48:22

they picked her up outside her apartment.

48:25

I don't know exactly what

48:27

happened, but obviously there's something

48:29

changed. Because they

48:31

did end up at her apartment, they

48:33

may not have gone inside, but they were

48:35

there. On March thirty, nineteen

48:37

eighty nine, Monique Rivera's body was found in

48:39

the woods near East Chester Bay,

48:41

near City Island Road

48:43

in the Bronx. She had been

48:45

hit on the head and strangled. She had defensive

48:48

wounds.

48:48

Andrey was gone. There were no signs

48:50

of

48:52

Monique's friends or their vehicle at the crime scene, the

48:55

police identified Monique's body

48:57

after Timothy Bryant published an

48:59

act in the paper asking

49:02

for information about Moony. On

49:04

April third, the police issued a

49:06

nationwide Bolton with information about

49:10

Andre Brine. A few days

49:12

after Monique was murdered, a woman

49:14

named Joan Walker called

49:16

Monique's apartment and asked to speak

49:18

with her. When she was told

49:20

that Monique was dead, she said that was impossible because they

49:22

had just gone shopping. Now, this

49:24

collar has

49:25

never been identified. and

49:28

the police were not able to link anyone named

49:30

Joan Walker to Monique's

49:32

case. But that is very

49:34

strange. It is very bizarre. Andre

49:37

has

49:37

never been found. The two

49:39

women

49:40

who took Monique out shopping have

49:42

never been identified. The police

49:44

believe that Andre might have been

49:47

sold in an adoption ring. It was

49:49

also thought that his case

49:51

could possibly be connected

49:54

to Shane Walker and

49:56

Christopher DanSPE. Well, if

49:57

you think that Shane and Christopher's part of an

49:59

adoption ring, you can see how they can

50:01

link that. I thought it

50:02

was strange, Gibbs, that they kept using the

50:05

phrase adoption ring and the

50:07

research. I get it, what they're trying

50:09

to say. But how is adoption part

50:11

of this at all? No. It's like

50:13

a kidnapping ring. It is. According

50:15

to the Daily News, approximately

50:18

one year after Shane went missing.

50:20

Rosa went on the Gerardo

50:22

Rivera show and spoke to

50:24

Psyche who told her that Shane was

50:26

sold in the black market and

50:28

adopted. The Psyche

50:30

told Rosa that a Hispanic man driving a

50:32

station wagon, kidnapped Shane

50:34

drove him to Philadelphia, where

50:36

he was sold to a family that

50:38

loved him. So

50:40

now when, you know, I hear it that way, somebody

50:42

is buying a child. Yeah.

50:46

But eventually, they are

50:48

adopting that child

50:50

as their own. So I I maybe

50:52

it does make more sense than

50:54

I thought it did originally. I mean,

50:56

none of this makes sense. Don't get me wrong. I'm the phrasing. Maybe does

50:59

make a little bit

51:00

more sense. Yeah. Sounds like in

51:02

that scenario someone is illegally

51:05

adopting? Yes. No.

51:07

And they know what they're doing is wrong.

51:09

Well, sure because they haven't gone through it through

51:11

the adoption -- Yeah.

51:14

-- process. they're

51:14

they're going to to legally adopt and

51:17

and change

51:17

the baby's name. Right.

51:19

But they haven't gone

51:21

through the adoption process

51:23

and been vetted and all that.

51:26

So I don't know. It's got me a little bit

51:28

confused.

51:29

But CNN reported

51:30

that Rosa appeared on the Montel Williams Show,

51:33

where a psychic told her

51:35

that Shane was being raised by

51:37

a wealthy family and

51:40

was well taken care of and he was learning the

51:42

piano. Okay. I I know I get

51:44

beaten up sometimes for my takes on

51:48

psychics. Sure. I'm not saying

51:50

there are not people that have psychic

51:52

abilities. I'm not saying

51:54

that. I don't know how many

51:56

there are. My thought is there are more people claiming

51:58

they do than actually

52:00

do, and I'm gonna stand

52:01

by that. Yeah. I'm just

52:03

wondering if you could

52:05

say that he knew

52:06

that, you know, he was in

52:09

Philadelphia. Did you

52:11

just say Philadelphia? Yes. Okay.

52:12

That's how we say it in Philly.

52:13

Is that like Philadelphia cream

52:16

cheese? Yeah. And you really emphasize

52:18

the one part of the

52:20

word. Philadelphia. Yeah.

52:22

Downey. Okay. Hey. Go with it, man. I'm gonna

52:24

say if they could they could pinpoint that

52:26

kind of information or pinpoint that he's

52:28

now with a very

52:30

wealthy family. Why

52:30

can't they say who the family is? No. They can not come up with nap. Well, that's

52:32

that's not how the psychic thing works.

52:34

I know, but I just wonder. And

52:37

again, I hate to be so cynical about it,

52:40

but I've just seen so

52:42

many cases, so many

52:46

instances where they turned out to be

52:48

wrong. Yeah. So are you

52:49

really psychic if the

52:49

information that you're giving turns out to

52:52

be incorrect? I

52:54

I would argue no. Yeah. I mean, the

52:56

proof is

52:57

in the pudding. Are you

52:59

asking me as a question? No.

53:02

You're right. That's the saying. According to

53:04

a nineteen ninety news day article, two

53:06

men seen near the playground at

53:08

the time of the disappearances were

53:12

found. in question by police,

53:14

and their presence was satisfactorily

53:18

explained. So Again, in

53:20

these unsolved cases, you

53:22

don't

53:22

get every morsel.

53:24

Right? You don't get

53:28

every nugget. you get vague statements,

53:30

and you have to work

53:31

with them. Oh, yeah. You're gonna be

53:33

limited. There

53:34

were rumors that Christopher was

53:37

kidnapped because of a drug dad. Alison told

53:39

the Daily News in nineteen ninety

53:41

one. People tried to say I

53:43

owed money for drugs, That's

53:46

why my baby was taken. They said a lot of

53:48

mean things that I was buying crack

53:50

when my baby was taken, that

53:52

I traded my baby for drugs,

53:55

They're all lies. I've done crack

53:57

almost five years in and out, but

53:59

I never owed nobody money.

54:02

I passed a lie

54:04

detector test. And and I do think that would be extremely

54:06

tough. I get it. She was doing

54:08

crack. Okay. She was doing crack. A lot of

54:10

people were doing crack back in that at that time frame. She

54:12

might have

54:14

been addicted cracker. But if she didn't have

54:16

anything to do, you know, with the

54:18

disappearance of her child,

54:20

how tough would

54:22

that be to have

54:24

people say that, to see

54:26

that written, you know,

54:27

in articles. On

54:29

top of grieving for the

54:32

loss of your child, you know, he's

54:33

gone. You don't know where he is. Yeah. But yet

54:36

you have to defend yourself to other

54:38

people. Now it said

54:38

that the Dan's B family

54:42

took polygraphs but the results were inconclusive.

54:44

Shane Walker's father was also

54:46

questioned and said he took a

54:48

polygraph test The police

54:50

confirmed that he did take a test,

54:52

but said that

54:52

the results were inconclusive. Again,

54:55

my

54:55

thoughts on polygraph inconclusive.

54:58

I think if I took a polygraph,

55:00

my results

55:01

would be inconclusive. I

55:03

have anxiety. Sure.

55:05

to throw it off. Is that not going to throw it off?

55:07

I'm gonna be extremely nervous if

55:10

you're asking me questions

55:12

about a murder. If you're asking me if

55:14

I did something, my anxiety's gonna

55:16

kick in, and I have to

55:18

think it's going to affect the

55:21

results of a polygraph test. I don't maybe

55:24

not. Maybe I'm

55:24

wrong. No. I don't think so. I remember

55:26

taking that polygraph test for you here in the

55:28

studio. Yeah. You did not do well.

55:31

You did not.

55:31

Neither Rosa nor Alison were

55:34

contacted by someone claiming to

55:36

have the boys which ruled out, you know, any type of kidnapping for

55:38

money. The police did

55:40

extensive searches and they tapped the

55:42

parents phone

55:44

but that didn't, you know, lead to anything. And

55:46

I think that's a big one.

55:47

Right? Children are kidnapped

55:50

for ransom that happens.

55:53

But obviously, if no one makes a call, if no one

55:56

sends a letter, if there is

55:58

no demand, pretty quickly,

56:00

that gets ruled

56:02

out. and you

56:03

have to move on to something

56:06

else. The police

56:06

looked into drug related motives,

56:10

child sacrifice cults, child

56:13

deaf rings, They also surged all eighteen

56:15

hundred apartments in the

56:17

Martin Luther King towers

56:20

three

56:20

times. It's

56:20

a lot of units. It is a lot of units. Now

56:23

we're also talking the end of the eighties, so

56:25

we obviously

56:25

can't do

56:26

a case without talking about cult

56:30

the occult, of course.

56:32

Child sacrifice, that that was

56:34

always coming up. According to

56:37

the Daily News, They also looked

56:39

into five hundred reported sightings with law enforcement in

56:42

all states and Canada. They

56:44

had a crack house at one hundred and

56:46

thirteenth Street

56:48

and Lenox Avenue demolished. When a collars said they

56:51

could find one of the boys there. The

56:53

police also traveled to

56:55

Puerto Rico, St.

56:58

Croy and Saint Thomas. Housing detective

57:00

Julia Sills said we had

57:02

leads that a cult was emanating from

57:06

the islands. that possibly children were being taken

57:08

for sacrifice. Of course they did

57:10

because you said this, was

57:11

that time frame with things like that were

57:13

come on the surface? It

57:15

was. So does it shock

57:17

you that people were

57:19

calling

57:19

in, providing tips, providing

57:22

leads that had to do with that?

57:25

No. It doesn't shock me at all because that

57:27

was rampant -- Right. -- back in

57:29

the eighties. But the other thing I think you

57:31

have to look at is They're traveling

57:33

all over the world, following up on leads.

57:35

The entire on we United

57:38

States, Canada, Puerto Rico,

57:40

St. Croix, St. Thomas, it's not the entire

57:42

world, but -- Yeah. But you can -- take one all

57:43

over your place. Yeah. The efforts are being

57:45

made. Yeah. Absolutely. Please

57:47

put out

57:47

a profile of a male sex offender

57:50

in the area and a female

57:52

struggling with drug addiction, whose

57:54

child died or was taken by

57:56

child welfare. They also looked

57:58

into roughly two hundred

57:59

known pedophiles, child

58:01

molesters, and sex offenders.

58:04

Again,

58:04

it seems like the police are

58:07

doing everything that they should be

58:09

doing. Yeah. I think the problem is they just don't

58:11

know what to do. They don't know where

58:13

to

58:13

go. They're trying a lot of stuff but they

58:15

don't have any real

58:17

lead. And the

58:18

tips and stuff that they are getting, they turn

58:20

out not to be correct or they're

58:23

pretty far fetched. talking about putting out profiles of a

58:26

male sex offender, looking

58:28

into known pedophiles and

58:30

sex offenders. Okay. That would be a

58:32

good idea. because there's a

58:34

good chance that it could

58:36

be a person like that -- Sure. -- who

58:38

abducted these children. What about

58:40

this female whose

58:42

child died? or was taking my

58:44

child welfare? What's the thought there

58:46

that she was trying to

58:48

replace that child? Yeah.

58:50

That's the only thing that that I could come up

58:51

with it. She felt like she needed that

58:54

connection with a child, so she went out

58:56

and kidnapped one.

58:57

On January fourteenth

58:59

nineteen ninety one, The police

59:01

received a call about a body dumped in the woods thirty

59:04

miles outside Atlantic City. The

59:06

footprints didn't

59:08

match Christopher and

59:11

the child's face was decomposed, sad?

59:13

Well,

59:13

sad that they

59:14

found a child.

59:16

the child It wasn't either

59:18

one of these children, but some

59:20

other child was dumped

59:22

in the woods, very sad.

59:24

In January nineteen ninety seven,

59:27

A judge ordered Golden Eagle

59:29

mutual insurance to pay

59:31

Rosalie Glover, a ten thousand

59:33

dollar death benefit, The judge said that Shane Walker must

59:35

be presumed dead since it was

59:38

unlikely he'd ever be found.

59:40

According to the Daily News, the police

59:42

didn't know

59:44

about the insurance policy until they saw the court papers

59:46

in nineteen ninety seven. Detective

59:48

Frank Seje said we

59:51

were never told that there was

59:53

any kind of insurance, we have enough to be suspicious.

59:56

Okay? So now they're heading in

59:58

a a

59:59

different direction. The problem I

1:00:02

have here is that

1:00:04

they investigated people

1:00:06

close to these children. I

1:00:08

don't

1:00:08

think it would have been that

1:00:10

tough. to find out whether or not

1:00:12

one of these individuals had

1:00:14

an insurance policy on one of these

1:00:18

children. this guy saying, well, we were never told. But did you

1:00:20

dig into it and look and Right. Yeah.

1:00:22

Or you just didn't, and that's why

1:00:25

you didn't know. Golden Eagle submitted documents showing

1:00:27

that Rosa applied for insurance on

1:00:30

July twenty ninth nineteen

1:00:32

eighty nine. The

1:00:34

policy was issued on August first, and

1:00:36

then Shane went missing on

1:00:39

August tenth. Seven weeks later, Rosa

1:00:41

made her first attempt to

1:00:43

collect. away because she didn't have a death

1:00:46

certificate. Well, you can see where that

1:00:48

might seem somewhat suspicious.

1:00:51

Yeah. I think they were suspicious just

1:00:53

finding out about the life insurance.

1:00:56

But I think when you look at

1:00:58

the timing, that had to

1:01:00

ramp up the suspicion even

1:01:02

more. The timing is either an

1:01:04

extremely unfortunate coincidence

1:01:06

or it's a bad sign.

1:01:08

Rosa told the Daily News when my son disappeared. I

1:01:11

wasn't thinking about the insurance

1:01:13

policy. It was the man who

1:01:15

sold me the policy. who

1:01:18

suggested that I might be entitled

1:01:20

to the money. She said she

1:01:22

purchased the policy before taking

1:01:24

chain on a flight

1:01:26

to because

1:01:26

all these planes

1:01:27

were crashing at the

1:01:29

time. Rosa's attorney said the

1:01:31

timing was coincidental.

1:01:34

and it very well could But I said,

1:01:36

that's an an

1:01:37

incredibly

1:01:38

sad coincidence.

1:01:40

It really is.

1:01:42

I just think about when you say that all these planes are coming down, but wouldn't

1:01:44

you be traveling with your child? I

1:01:47

guess maybe the insurance would

1:01:49

be for the family after

1:01:51

the

1:01:51

fact? Yeah. I mean,

1:01:54

normally, my

1:01:54

thought has always been, you

1:01:56

know, with a child

1:01:58

that young, What you

1:01:59

have is something to cover the funeral

1:02:02

expenses. That that's my way

1:02:04

of thinking. That's expensive. It is very

1:02:06

expensive. It's always

1:02:08

been expensive. been expense Golden

1:02:10

Eagle

1:02:10

believed that Shane must be declared

1:02:12

legally debt before they could pay

1:02:14

the policy, but the judge said

1:02:16

that under state law. Any person

1:02:18

missing for three years who cannot be found is

1:02:21

presumed dead. So a

1:02:23

formal declaration was unnecessary.

1:02:26

Age progression photos of Christopher and Shane have

1:02:28

been developed to show what they

1:02:30

may look like as adult men.

1:02:33

In two thousand twenty one,

1:02:35

the MC MEC released new

1:02:37

images of Shane and

1:02:39

Christopher as adults The police have

1:02:41

received years, but they have never heard from

1:02:44

or located

1:02:46

Christopher Orshane. And

1:02:48

my thought is, if they are still alive,

1:02:50

if they were

1:02:52

abducted and and, you know,

1:02:54

sold to a family who

1:02:58

raised them. Would they have any idea

1:03:00

who they really are? And my

1:03:02

thought is no. Yeah. I don't think

1:03:04

they would.

1:03:04

they would they

1:03:06

have to question their identity?

1:03:08

Yeah. They were

1:03:09

so young. But, you know, that's

1:03:11

a that's a big if. if

1:03:13

they're still alive. Unsolved mysteries

1:03:16

covered the case in two thousand

1:03:18

twenty. They also covered the

1:03:20

Carlina White case, which was mentioned

1:03:23

by detectives back in nineteen

1:03:25

eighty nine. On August fourth nineteen

1:03:27

eighty seven, Carolina was kidnapped from

1:03:29

a Harlem hospital when she

1:03:31

was only nineteen days old,

1:03:34

Karleen's parents took her to the hospital

1:03:36

for a fever. Her

1:03:38

doctor was a woman posing as

1:03:40

a nurse. Karlena was raised by this woman.

1:03:42

Anne Petwey in Connecticut,

1:03:44

she grew up with the name

1:03:48

Nedra Nance. Carlina became

1:03:50

suspicious of her mother when she had

1:03:52

her daughter in two thousand four and

1:03:56

needed insurance. When

1:03:56

she submitted her birth certificate, she was told

1:03:58

it was possibly a

1:03:59

forgery, and Pat Way revealed

1:04:02

that she

1:04:04

was not. Karleen is

1:04:06

biological mother and said

1:04:08

that her real mother

1:04:10

abandoned

1:04:10

her. So

1:04:11

I just got

1:04:13

done saying, you

1:04:14

know, what if these two boys are still alive?

1:04:16

Right? Well, here's a story that

1:04:17

proves that it does happen.

1:04:20

According

1:04:20

to Oprah Daily, Karleen

1:04:23

was the one who solved her case. She saw that her

1:04:25

daughter looked like her baby picture.

1:04:27

On the NCMEC website,

1:04:31

their hotline and told them, I don't

1:04:34

know who I am, and

1:04:36

PetWay turned herself in on January

1:04:38

twenty third two

1:04:40

thousand eleven. In February two thousand twelve, she pleaded

1:04:42

guilty to one count of

1:04:44

kidnapping. On July thirtieth of that

1:04:46

year, she was sentenced to twelve years

1:04:48

in prison.

1:04:50

Kirlina was reunited with her parents, Joy

1:04:52

White and Carl Tyson. If you

1:04:54

wanna read more about this story,

1:04:58

New York Magazine published a a really good article

1:05:00

on it titled kidnapped at

1:05:02

birth by Robert Coker, and

1:05:05

it's a good read. I

1:05:07

suggest that, you know, anybody who wants to

1:05:09

to know more about it, check it out.

1:05:11

But I

1:05:12

think what Carolina's case does, and I

1:05:14

kinda just foreshadowed it a minute ago,

1:05:16

is that it does provide hope

1:05:18

for parents of missing children. Sure.

1:05:20

I mean, there are cases. And

1:05:24

there have been some recently where, you

1:05:26

know, it has been discovered so

1:05:29

many years later. that

1:05:31

a child who was abducted

1:05:34

is still alive and, you

1:05:36

know, was raised by a family.

1:05:39

They had no idea. who

1:05:40

they really were. So I I do think there

1:05:42

is a possibility that if

1:05:45

Shane and Christopher were abducted, they

1:05:48

were raised by people under a new identity. They

1:05:51

have no idea that they

1:05:53

are Christopher and Jane and would have

1:05:55

no reason to think

1:05:56

otherwise.

1:05:58

No.

1:05:58

There would be no reason to

1:06:00

question. Unless something happens, like what happened

1:06:02

to Carolina. There's a there's

1:06:05

a need for some

1:06:06

documentation or there's blood drawn

1:06:09

that somehow doesn't, you

1:06:11

know, doesn't match

1:06:14

your parents

1:06:15

and and it

1:06:17

comes up that, well, you

1:06:19

obviously could not be

1:06:21

their biological child. But

1:06:22

like we said, there are age

1:06:25

progression photos out there. Who knows

1:06:27

how close they are?

1:06:30

I mean, Sometimes they're very close and sometimes they're

1:06:32

not, that would be really

1:06:34

bizarre to go out

1:06:35

on that site and see

1:06:37

a picture

1:06:37

of yourself and know

1:06:39

it's you. Yeah. Be like, that's me.

1:06:42

Yeah. Well, the technology today is

1:06:44

obviously very good. Sure. And

1:06:46

computers can do

1:06:48

amazing things. But if you recognize Christopher Shane, you

1:06:50

can email hotline at

1:06:52

NCMEC dot org.

1:06:54

So, you know, as we wrap

1:06:56

up this

1:06:58

case, yeah, it's a tough one because

1:07:00

you're dealing with very young children

1:07:02

who were abducted, and

1:07:04

we have no idea what happened

1:07:08

to them. But we don't know that they're not alive.

1:07:10

We don't. And, you

1:07:11

know, there

1:07:12

there was a

1:07:13

little bit of an uplift when

1:07:15

you think about Carly

1:07:18

us case. I mean, she was cared

1:07:19

for. She grew up.

1:07:22

She

1:07:22

had her

1:07:24

own child. Still terrible.

1:07:26

What happened to her? It went

1:07:28

into her parents? Into

1:07:30

her parents. But uplifting

1:07:32

in the fact that they were eventually

1:07:34

reunite. Right. could that

1:07:36

happen with Shane and Christopher?

1:07:38

I don't know,

1:07:38

but I'm sure their parents are hoping that

1:07:40

it

1:07:41

that it's a possibility. Maybe one day

1:07:43

we'll read about it. We got some voice

1:07:45

mails you wanna check those out? Yes, Hi, Mike and Gimi.

1:07:47

My name is Elena. I

1:07:50

am active duty military, and I

1:07:52

live in San Diego,

1:07:54

California. However, I am

1:07:57

from Michigan. Hope there's

1:07:59

no hard feelings over

1:08:01

this past weekend. you know, go blue. Anyways, I

1:08:03

am a huge fan of the podcast. You guys

1:08:06

are wonderful. I love listening to

1:08:08

you guys I

1:08:10

found your podcast probably

1:08:12

three, four

1:08:14

months

1:08:14

ago, and I listened to every

1:08:18

day when I drive. I to day.

1:08:23

I was wondering if

1:08:26

you've ever looked into the Christian case,

1:08:28

he it's

1:08:31

technically a soft case. and

1:08:35

he they say

1:08:37

he committed suicide, but

1:08:39

most people know that

1:08:42

that just is it true or plausible. And

1:08:44

that was in two thousand

1:08:47

fourteen in Meridian, Mississippi. very,

1:08:51

very interesting case. There's a podcast

1:08:53

called Kopel Ball all about it

1:08:55

and that goes well into it. I

1:08:57

was wondering if you guys have ever

1:08:59

looked into it. Anyways, thank you

1:09:01

so much. You guys are awesome. I love what you

1:09:04

do. Keep your

1:09:07

own time ticking. That

1:09:08

name sounds so familiar? It does. I was thinking the same thing.

1:09:10

I I saw your face and you were like, did we do that? But I

1:09:13

I don't think we've

1:09:15

done that case. we

1:09:18

can look into it. III

1:09:21

tend to shy away from cases where podcasts cover

1:09:23

it exclusively. Yeah. because obviously,

1:09:27

we're not gonna be able to do it the

1:09:28

same way that they do it. You know,

1:09:30

if your whole podcast is about

1:09:31

one case.

1:09:34

Right? Well, obviously, you're gonna do a really good job on it. You're

1:09:37

gonna spend your whole time.

1:09:39

Focused on this one case. Obviously, you

1:09:41

and I are focused on a different

1:09:43

case each week, but it's definitely

1:09:45

something we can look into. Yeah. And and see if it would make for a for a good

1:09:47

episode. I put it on unsolved because of

1:09:49

the way that she

1:09:52

kind of

1:09:52

that she can of

1:09:54

talked

1:09:54

about the case -- Right. -- saying technically

1:09:56

solved, but that'll that

1:09:58

most people don't think it

1:09:59

is. So Really would sure what Shoe was

1:10:02

talking about with Ishigen. I don't know. Because that happened this weekend. You know, there are there were a lot

1:10:04

of voicemails -- Yeah. -- obviously,

1:10:06

I I can't play them all.

1:10:10

you

1:10:10

and I have to

1:10:11

take that loss. And, you know,

1:10:13

I I give props to Michigan. They

1:10:16

whipped our rear ends and

1:10:18

We're just gonna have to wait till next year and hope we can

1:10:20

do better, man. That's all we can

1:10:22

do. That's all we

1:10:23

can do. Hi, Mike and Gidi. I

1:10:25

just wanted to call and tell y'all how awesome y'all

1:10:27

are and how much I enjoy

1:10:30

the podcast. And that

1:10:31

y'all

1:10:32

really helped me

1:10:35

out on that year, and I found your

1:10:37

podcast back in August when

1:10:39

I needed

1:10:40

august

1:10:41

it the most. and you really helped

1:10:43

me get through some really difficult

1:10:46

times. And thank you

1:10:48

very much.

1:10:50

Bye. Well,

1:10:50

that touched me. And,

1:10:52

you know, we

1:10:53

always say, it it makes

1:10:55

us feel good. Yeah. I'm

1:10:57

so sorry that someone has to go through a hard time, whatever it may be.

1:10:59

Right. But it is

1:11:04

touching to think that

1:11:06

we in any small way helped or made it easier

1:11:08

oh or

1:11:12

more tolerable That's something

1:11:14

that we never really thought about when we started this podcast, but it it does give us a good feeling.

1:11:16

Yeah. And you can hear her

1:11:18

choking up towards you. Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:22

and it it it gets to us. Yeah. It does. But

1:11:24

she's doing okay. In a good way.

1:11:26

Absolute absolutely. Hi,

1:11:27

Mike. And Gimmee, my name is Julianna.

1:11:30

I am from South Georgia, but I live

1:11:32

in self Florida now. I'm calling

1:11:34

to suggest a case or maybe

1:11:36

embrace awareness. I don't know

1:11:38

if there's enough talk about it.

1:11:40

When I was

1:11:42

living

1:11:42

in South Georgia, a series of tornadoes or just one bad tornado hit,

1:11:46

and a family reporter

1:11:48

their

1:11:50

little boy to try green, missing.

1:11:52

He

1:11:52

was three years old. This

1:11:54

little boy

1:11:55

has never been

1:11:57

found and the parent cannot produce

1:11:59

a

1:11:59

single picture of him. So a lot of

1:12:02

people are like, oh, it's a hoax. This

1:12:04

kid never

1:12:06

existed. Like, in the age of social media, there's no

1:12:08

way you don't have at least the

1:12:10

digital picture of them. So I just

1:12:13

thought that was an interesting case. It's

1:12:15

always been kind of in the back

1:12:17

line line. Does this kid actually exist?

1:12:19

Did they take this to the

1:12:21

media for some type of attention? But, yeah,

1:12:23

he's been missing for five, six years now, and

1:12:26

no one's ever found him. So

1:12:28

something

1:12:28

that can be a

1:12:29

little hard on hold

1:12:31

for you guys. Stay safe.

1:12:33

Thank you for your own time

1:12:35

again. Alright. We'll definitely look into it. We do have that problem. Right?

1:12:35

Where we look

1:12:38

into especially unsolved cases, And

1:12:42

some of them are very fascinating, but

1:12:44

there's just not enough information

1:12:47

out there to, you know, produce

1:12:49

an entire episode of Philips. Yeah.

1:12:51

Unfortunately. But we're seeing what we can

1:12:52

find out. But Yes. We went

1:12:54

from south Georgia to South Florida,

1:12:58

went that Georgia Florida line. You just had to get that in there didn't.

1:13:00

Alright, buddy. That is it for another case

1:13:02

of true crime all the time unsolved. So

1:13:04

for Mike -- And, Gabby, stay safe

1:13:06

and keep your own time ticking.

1:13:20

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