0:03

If you ask a farmer to tell you about their

0:06

day, you usually get some version of woke

0:08

up, watered the crops, explored the mine, fought

0:10

some monsters, you know, farm stuff. Welcome

0:13

to TripleClick where we bring the games to you. Today

0:16

we're talking about Stardew Valley, the little life sim

0:18

that could, which just received a huge update and,

0:20

8 years after it first came out,

0:22

is just as much of a phenomenon as ever. Let's

0:25

talk about why that is. I'm

0:30

Kirk Hamilton. I'm Maddie Myers. And

0:33

I'm Jason Schreier. Hello! Hello!

0:36

Hello! Hello my friends.

0:38

It is beautiful out. The flowers

0:40

are flowering. Spring is springing. Yeah

0:43

man. It's very exciting. Lovely in

0:45

Portland as well. I am loving it. The

0:47

tulips are looking so beautiful. Oh good. We'd

0:50

love to see it. That's kind of on brand for

0:52

what we're talking about this episode. It is actually. But

0:55

a couple of things that you all should know. First of

0:57

all, we are a listener supported show. I'm sure you probably

0:59

already know that. But we are. We're

1:01

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1:04

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1:46

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1:48

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1:50

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1:52

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1:54

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1:57

June 8th at 6pm. on

2:00

Saturday, June 8th at 6.30 PM Pacific time at

2:04

the Teragram Ballroom in Los Angeles. That will

2:06

be the same weekend as the Summer Games

2:08

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2:10

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2:12

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2:14

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2:16

you can order tickets now and we hope that you

2:19

do. There's a link for that down in

2:21

the show notes. So again, that's Saturday, June 8th at

2:23

the Teragram Ballroom in Los Angeles. And of course,

2:25

if you can't make it, you'll still be able

2:28

to hear the show in the feed. But

2:30

really you wanna be there. You wanna be in the room with it.

2:32

Yeah, you wanna be there. It's very fun. We had a

2:34

great time at our last live show. You wanna

2:36

hear all the crowd noise before Kirk edits in

2:38

fake crowd noise. Yeah, because he's gonna add in

2:40

like, canned laughter and all kinds of stuff. You

2:42

wanna hear all the crickets. You wanna hear all

2:44

the jokes that fall flat. No, they

2:47

all land and the electricity in the

2:49

room is

2:51

unstoppable, so. Yeah, it's gonna be too

2:53

loud. I actually edit the show to make the

2:55

jokes seem worse because they're

2:57

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2:59

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3:01

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3:04

need to make, it's working some balance here. So that's

3:06

gonna be super fun. Get some tickets, come out, support

3:08

us, see us live. It's gonna be a great time.

3:11

All right, let's get on with the show.

3:13

Speaking of lovely weather and blooming tulips and

3:15

all of that, Maddie, what are we talking

3:17

about today? We are talking about

3:19

Stardew Valley, which has been just

3:22

such a wonderful game for me

3:24

to ease back into like an

3:26

armchair after playing so much

3:28

Dragon's Dogma 2 and all that friction.

3:31

I mean, there is some friction in Stardew and

3:33

we can talk about that a little bit.

3:35

But part of why we're talking about Stardew

3:37

Valley is because it had a pretty big

3:40

update, Update 1.6, that came

3:42

out on March 16th, the past most recent

3:44

March. But this game originally came out

3:46

in February of 2016. So

3:49

it's been around for a little bit. God, eight years

3:51

ago. I know, I know. And

3:53

I truly feel like the past eight

3:55

years have been kind of

3:57

revolutionary for farming sims and lifestyle sims.

4:00

this kind. I think during the pandemic, we

4:02

all we talked a lot about Animal Crossing,

4:04

and how many people were playing that the switch

4:06

game New Horizons. And this

4:09

game is like the Earth

4:12

farming sim in my mind, it

4:14

is the farming sim, it makes

4:17

every action feel good. And

4:20

it makes chores feel satisfying. And

4:22

that is a mix of a

4:25

variety of things, some some light

4:27

touch story and environmental storytelling overall,

4:29

some really pleasing pixel

4:32

graphics, and wonderful

4:34

music and and also it all

4:36

coheres and maybe that's because it's

4:39

all pretty much made by just

4:41

one person. And that's Eric Brown, who

4:43

also goes by concerned ape online

4:45

and as a game designer. At this

4:48

point, there's a couple other contractors who

4:50

work with him to support the game,

4:52

but he originally made it all by

4:54

himself. And I actually wanted to

4:56

kick it to you, Jason, because you talked to

4:58

Eric Brown back in the day for your

5:00

book. Yeah, my first book, but

5:02

certain pixels at the chapter about Eric

5:04

story and the story of Stardew Valley

5:06

and something I think is particularly notable.

5:09

Yes, to your point, he had a couple

5:11

of contractors, but he is the rare and

5:13

I think maybe the only or one of the

5:15

only examples of a solo dev was actually

5:17

a sell it off because oftentimes in the

5:19

game development world, people have talked about people

5:21

who are solo devs, who actually

5:24

just like have someone else writing the music or

5:26

have an artist with them helping them out. And

5:28

it's kind of like this, this myth of

5:30

solo devs, for example, Toby

5:33

Fox is not a solo dev he made until

5:35

with a couple of other people, Jonathan Blow is

5:37

not a solo dev he may bray he had

5:39

an artist on braid and other

5:41

team on the witness and so on

5:43

and so forth. But Eric Brown made

5:45

Stardew Valley entirely by himself, every single

5:47

aspect of that game he made by

5:49

himself. He didn't even

5:51

use an outside engine like he wrote

5:53

a the code wrote a the code

5:55

himself without relying on someone else's like

5:57

physics or rendering. Or

6:00

anything like that or any sort of

6:02

like utility and had to learn a

6:04

programming language from what I understand in

6:06

order To do so like new a

6:09

little bit, but then was like I'm gonna

6:11

just learn how to do this I mean

6:13

Jason, I'll let you continue because you talked to

6:15

him, but it's pretty wild It's it's a

6:17

wild story. So he started out I'll give

6:19

the kind of a bridge version of his

6:21

story, which is that he started out making

6:23

this thing as kind of like an experiment

6:26

He his goal originally was he looked around at

6:28

the harvest moon series Which he had grown up

6:30

loving and playing on the Super Nintendo and he

6:33

was like man This series has kind of gone

6:35

downhill. There haven't been any good ones released in

6:37

a while What if I make a modern version

6:39

that kind of captures what I really loved about

6:41

the old the old games and he started working

6:43

On it. He thought it was gonna be

6:46

like this little Xbox live arcade project that

6:48

he released in six months Maybe

6:50

put out for free or something like that and

6:52

and then moved on to like something something bigger

6:55

And and he saw this is kind of like

6:57

he did this after he graduated from College

7:00

as like a little I don't know

7:02

in between gig before he got a

7:04

real job quote-unquote And

7:07

then as as often happens

7:09

it blew up and it wound up

7:11

turning into a five-year Development

7:14

for him. He started in around 2011

7:17

and released the game in 2016 He

7:20

was supported by a very

7:22

very accommodating very loving partner

7:25

His girlfriend at the time I believe

7:27

turned fiance turned wife Who

7:30

amber amber Hageman who who

7:32

supported him quite a bit the

7:34

whole way? He wound up getting a couple of odd

7:36

jobs here and there during the development process as well

7:39

But she was also very supportive of him They lived

7:41

in their parents house for one of their parents house

7:43

for a while They had a very

7:45

long saga and one of the

7:47

things that I think really struck me about his story

7:49

Is that like when you work on the same thing

7:52

for? Really any

7:54

extended period of time as anyone knows you

7:56

find that a you get better at it

7:58

the more you do it and therefore be,

8:00

you want to just redo all of your

8:02

old work as you go. And so this

8:05

can really turn into an infinite long process

8:07

if you don't have some sort of external

8:10

pressure on you to actually release

8:12

the thing. And so yeah, Hisaga

8:14

had quite a few ups and downs along the way,

8:16

but eventually he released the thing and

8:20

he found a publisher, Chucklefish. They got

8:22

some Twitch streamers involved, built up some

8:24

early buzz. He was also blogging about

8:26

it at a time when blogs of

8:28

indie games could actually get attention 2011

8:31

or so, because there weren't a ton of indie games around

8:33

back then the way there are today. And

8:37

yeah, I mean pretty much immediately,

8:39

it became a bestseller,

8:41

wound up selling many millions

8:44

of copies and turned

8:46

into a cultural phenomenon. And

8:50

really, I don't know if it changed his

8:52

life because the times that I've talked to

8:54

him and met him, he's still been kind

8:56

of living the same lifestyle despite now being

8:58

a mega-millionaire. That's the easy case. Yeah, the

9:00

game has made, I was Googling around and 30

9:03

million was the figure that I found. I don't

9:05

know if that's accurate or not. The man is

9:07

a millionaire, so I used to say. But

9:10

we talked to him recently for a Polygon story about

9:12

just asking him what he uses, like

9:14

what tech he uses as kind of a

9:17

classic bit for stories. And I expected him

9:19

to be like, oh, here's my computer. Here's

9:21

my build. And instead he was

9:23

like, here's the candle I like to light

9:25

at night before I fall asleep. Here's

9:28

the fleece jacket that I've been wearing for

9:30

10 years. And that was the

9:32

kind of product that he was like, yeah, these are

9:34

the things I used to get Stardew Valley done. I

9:37

was kind of blown away by him as a person.

9:39

I don't know, I really feel like

9:42

that says a lot about the guy that he's

9:44

just still that person. Yeah, when

9:46

I met him, he was telling me about how

9:48

his computer, he put his monitor

9:50

on top of a box so it would be at

9:52

the proper height. And when I met him, he was

9:54

telling me about how the most

9:57

exciting purchase he had made is like a proper

9:59

computer. He

10:02

was a, when

10:04

I met him, we were driving

10:06

in packs together and I got in his car

10:08

and the front passenger door didn't open. So you

10:11

have to like climb it, or the front driver

10:13

door didn't open. Yeah, amazing. So

10:15

you have to climb into the passenger seat. Yeah,

10:17

it's a real punk rocker engine. And I was

10:19

like, man, how much money do you have? And

10:21

you're still driving around in this car. Funny. Yeah,

10:23

yeah. I feel like that value, those values kind

10:25

of are expressed in the game too, right? I

10:28

mean, it is very much a game about rejecting

10:30

the rat race, rejecting

10:32

consumerism and building something a little

10:34

bit more sustainable out of somewhat

10:37

more humble ingredients. So it kind of makes sense.

10:39

Like his personality really comes out in the game

10:41

and I think is a big part of what

10:44

makes it so special and what makes people love

10:46

it so much. Yeah, I agree. I mean,

10:48

you're kind of speaking to the actual

10:50

story of the game, which it

10:53

is really funny knowing that as far

10:55

as I know, Eric Brown never had

10:57

a corporate job of any kind, but

10:59

the game begins with you working for,

11:01

I mean, now I see the fictional Joja

11:03

Mart is like an Amazon parody, but at

11:05

the time I think it was more of

11:07

a Walmart parody. It's just that now times

11:09

have changed and now we

11:11

might think of it as an Amazon parody,

11:14

but it kind of depicts like a series

11:16

of corporate drones working in an office, like

11:18

a massive warehouse style office. And

11:21

the main character who you get

11:23

to design opens this mysterious letter

11:25

from their grandpa that leaves them

11:28

this farm and they can

11:30

leave it all behind, leave corporate life

11:32

behind. And this is such

11:34

a dream of corporate drones everywhere, including myself

11:36

when I've had more corporate jobs than the

11:39

one I have now of just like, oh,

11:41

I would have just moved to the vittle

11:43

of nowhere. It just had a little farm

11:45

and I just planted my little seedlings and

11:48

I would just eat what I grow. I

11:51

mean, it's extremely naive because farming

11:53

is actually like significantly more difficult

11:56

and high pressure than that. And I

11:58

think it's like a uniquely corporate. drone kind of

12:00

a fantasy, but that's what the game is

12:03

playing into and very effectively so for

12:05

somebody who never actually had to leave the

12:08

corporate like behind and instead is fantasizing

12:10

about it in a very different

12:13

way. And again,

12:15

I don't know that this is a man who

12:17

leaves the house very often either, but this is

12:19

a game that is very much about leaving the

12:22

house and getting in tune with nature and

12:24

just carefully plotting your little seeds. But

12:27

Kirk, I wanted to hear from you because I think you've played the

12:29

most out of any of us and

12:31

I'm curious if that ever took on a

12:34

quality for you of like really

12:36

going hardcore into Stardew Valley because there is

12:38

a subsection of it that is like really

12:40

into min-maxing or if you like strictly tried

12:42

to do the classic Kirk Hamilton taking a

12:44

walk every day and not looking at Twitter

12:46

like that's probably closer to what you were

12:48

doing but what's your relationship with Stardew Valley

12:51

as a player? I've

12:53

played it more in that second way, yeah,

12:55

where I don't really min-max that the lure

12:57

is always there because it's mixed extremely min-maxable

12:59

game. The first two weeks of the

13:01

game you have a certain limited

13:03

amount of money and seeds and

13:06

time. So I think a

13:08

lot of people listening to this have probably played

13:10

it but to explain a few of those mechanics

13:12

to people who haven't, the things that set this

13:14

game apart from Animal Crossing are those minutia

13:17

for sort of how you organize your time.

13:19

And I would say speaking of friction, the

13:21

friction in this game is largely logistical. It's

13:23

a lot of like understanding how and when you

13:25

want to do things and there's a limited time

13:28

in every day so a lot of your time

13:30

is spent making decisions about how you're going to

13:32

do what you're going to do which winds up

13:34

really does feel it feels like life. It is

13:36

a very much a life simulator because unlike

13:39

in Animal Crossing which runs according to

13:41

the clock inside of your device so

13:44

you actually have 12 hours or whatever

13:46

of sunlight every day in the summertime

13:48

so it's a long time to do stuff. In Stardew

13:50

Valley everything that you do you know the

13:52

clock is ticking and it's moving right along so

13:54

you have to really kind of plan things out

13:56

and optimize your schedule and as a result you

13:58

can really get into... in Maxing where it's like,

14:01

okay, well, I have these, I think it's like eight

14:03

or ten parsnip seeds that you start with. And I've

14:05

got, you know, this much time and so I don't

14:07

have very much money, but the best thing you can

14:09

do for money, I believe, is you

14:11

can go and forage in the woods because actually

14:13

if you get fruit and nuts out of the

14:15

woods, that stuff you can sell at the store

14:18

for more money than the parsnips which take a

14:20

little while to grow. So

14:22

the minute you're starting to make those calculations,

14:24

you're getting kind of pulled into the machinery

14:27

of Stardew Valley which is going to get

14:29

you a little bit no matter what. Like

14:32

I always get eventually a little pulled into that. Well, okay, cool. My

14:34

beanstalks are growing. Those are going to be ready tomorrow and then I can

14:36

sell them and I can use that to buy this. And

14:39

like if I lay these out, I can water a little bit more

14:41

efficiently by going, you know, you get into that kind of mindset and

14:43

it can be very satisfying. But if

14:45

you go too far into it, the way

14:47

that at least too far for me, I

14:49

think, for my preference, you get very, you

14:51

know, it turns into like, oh man, I've kind

14:53

of screwed everything up because my first week I

14:55

like had extra seeds that I didn't water. I

14:58

forgot to water one of my plants so it's

15:00

like a little behind all the other plants. So

15:02

every time I water, I have to be reminded

15:04

of my mistake. That's like that kind of thing

15:06

can really kind of trigger your more obsessive tendencies.

15:08

And I think that can be for me at

15:10

least a less rewarding way to play the game.

15:12

So I think a very interesting aspect

15:14

of the game that maybe we can talk about, like

15:16

thematically interesting. So I tend to play

15:18

it in a more relaxed way. I've played it. I've

15:21

done a couple of what I would call like committed playthroughs.

15:23

When it first came out in 2016, I

15:25

was still writing for Kotaku and I wound

15:27

up playing it just because I

15:29

thought it seemed interesting and saw it was buzzy

15:31

and really just got sucked in and probably played

15:33

a couple dozen hours and got maybe through a

15:35

year or so in the game's

15:38

calendar. And then it must have

15:40

been on Switch. I think it came back.

15:42

I came out on Switch a little later maybe and that's

15:44

when I played it. Okay, so

15:46

I played the Switch version and then I did that

15:49

again. Kind of the same thing. I played, I knew

15:51

a little more what I was doing. I started a

15:53

new game. I remember I

15:55

was romancing Emily, who is the

15:58

blue haired girl. Yes,

16:00

and I got to where I could ask her to

16:02

marry me and it was right before I actually proposed

16:04

to my now wife Emily And I remember telling her

16:06

about that. I'm like I'm gonna propose to Emily and

16:08

I'm also gonna propose to Emily and So

16:11

that puts that in there. How did it go with the

16:13

other Emily? Pretty good. I you know what?

16:15

I never went back to that game and finished

16:17

I mean I proposed but I think I think

16:20

we never wound up actually getting married just cuz

16:22

I kind of fell off of the She's like

16:24

man. He left me at the altar I see

16:26

this frozen in time in that weird way that

16:28

these games do so anyways Yeah, that's that's kind

16:30

of how I play it and I think

16:33

it's a really interesting game I think it kind of

16:35

fits in an interesting place up against Animal Crossing I

16:38

first played one of these games with Animal

16:40

Crossing new leaf which came out in 2012

16:43

That was on 3ds. That was the first time I'd ever

16:45

played any game of this type like a cozy management

16:49

attendant befriend game where you have a

16:51

farm and you're making friends and Then

16:54

I played Stardew Valley in 2016 and then

16:56

I played New Horizons Animal Crossing New Horizons

16:58

in 2020 and by then I was very Comfortable

17:01

with this sort of game and they're

17:03

all similar and different in different ways I think

17:05

a big part of the fantasy that you were

17:07

talking about Maddie the that this

17:09

game offers this fantasy of like this Pastoral,

17:12

you know farm life where I'm an

17:14

anti-cab it'll are yeah Yeah, it's like

17:16

farming is actually backbreaking work that often

17:19

doesn't pay well and it's like very

17:21

unfair and difficult Very

17:23

technical now like you actually have to really

17:25

know right use a tractor

17:27

and various one like you're farming like

17:29

You're farming as part of a like monocultural thing

17:31

where you're just growing like corn so that they

17:34

can use it for ethanol or whatever and you

17:36

just have tracks and tracks of Land that have

17:38

been reduced to just corn and it's like a

17:40

very weird thing It's government subsidies are really complex

17:43

none of that is Like

17:45

the fantasy version of you just have this little farm

17:47

and you can do whatever you want with it And

17:49

everything grows in the soil and it's great now crucial

17:51

difference between Stardew Valley and Animal Crossing

17:54

is that an animal crossing you're always in debt

17:56

and you're paying off debt Which I think is

17:58

very familiar to real-world farmers. Yeah But

18:00

in Stardew Valley, you don't have any debt. You

18:02

just own your farm free and clear and you

18:04

grow whatever you want on it So you feel

18:06

much more agency over your life and

18:09

then another big part of the fantasy I think that

18:11

we haven't really touched on is the social fantasy Yeah,

18:13

because the other big part of it is like leave

18:15

the corporate city life where like

18:17

you're really alienated and go to this small

18:19

town where everyone knows everyone and You're the

18:21

new guy and everyone is curious about you

18:24

and you can become friends with them and

18:26

fall in love with them and like Have

18:28

all of these different kinds of relationships with

18:30

all these people in town and you're like

18:32

immediately knit into the social fabric of this

18:34

Perfect little small town and that I think

18:36

is really appealing and is a big part

18:39

of why people like this game It

18:41

definitely is. Mmm. Yeah, it kind of

18:43

reminds me. So When

18:45

I watch Fiddler on the Roof, which

18:47

by the way, this is the second time in two weeks.

18:49

We talked We

18:51

said like a fiddler a fiddler alert I

18:58

Think of I think of what my own

19:00

ancestors are doing the Jewish steadily life in

19:02

the small town atmosphere where everyone knows each

19:05

other and they were all miserable

19:07

in many ways But also had something that

19:09

like I think a lot of people here

19:12

just like in our modern life Can't really

19:14

recreate or try to recreate online because that

19:16

small town feeling is just missing and so

19:18

yeah I think Stardew Valley appeals to that

19:21

kind of sense of community that I think

19:23

a lot of people just are lacking in

19:25

their own Lives and takes

19:27

chapel eight even further might be one of the

19:29

reason that we see so much toxicity around video game

19:32

Culture and the way that people kind of

19:34

get tribalistic about their favorite brands and stuff

19:37

is because that's their community is like Yeah,

19:39

I'm team Xbox. That's my community because they

19:41

don't have that Elsewhere and they

19:43

don't have that kind of tribe to belong to

19:45

elsewhere and I think Stardew Valley offers that fantasy

19:48

of like hey Look at me. I'm part of

19:50

this this little village everyone everyone knows each other

19:52

We're we're down in the end and there are

19:54

like I think the

19:56

nefarious parts of that aren't really

19:58

captured quite as much see quite as

20:00

much of the gossip and the backstabbing and

20:03

the kind of uglier aspects of

20:05

that. It's not quite there. I mean,

20:07

I will say though, I do feel like the

20:09

other big strength of Stardew Valley as compared to

20:11

an Animal Crossing, which is one of my other

20:13

kind of direct points of comparison in that I've

20:16

played both a lot, is that Animal Crossing is

20:18

a bit too twee for me.

20:20

Like when the characters are mean,

20:22

it's still in a very childlike

20:24

way. Whereas Stardew Valley is

20:27

funny and it is twee in certain

20:29

ways and cute, but it is also

20:31

dark. Like there are characters who seem

20:34

depressed. Like there's like an alcoholic

20:36

character. There are characters who

20:38

are very downtrodden. I

20:40

mean, Jojo Mart is an antagonist

20:42

in the game and like the

20:44

threat of corporate interference on this

20:46

cozy little town. Like there's an

20:49

actual conflict that is driving the

20:51

game overall and Animal Crossing just

20:53

doesn't... It is

20:55

pretty conflict free in a fundamental way. And sometimes

20:57

that's what you want out of a game. I'm

20:59

not trying to judge that, but

21:01

I do feel like at least for me

21:03

Stardew has just enough of that tension and

21:05

story and sense of humanity in its

21:08

writing that it still

21:10

preserves the fantasy while also allowing

21:13

you to be like, well, I'm part of a

21:15

community, but it has its flaws and it has

21:17

its problems. And I'm actually making a decision to

21:20

like side with the local shopkeeper who

21:22

is going to push back against the

21:25

like Walmart company that's trying to drive

21:27

in and like has cheaper prices and

21:29

is like competing with him. Like that,

21:31

I think it's

21:33

like a level of tension that Eric Broan

21:35

just chose to include. And I really appreciate

21:37

in a game and you don't see it that

21:40

often, you know? Yeah. It's a

21:42

noticeable difference between this game and Animal Crossing

21:44

that there's a specificity to the town. I

21:46

mean, each of these characters is a character

21:48

and they're each written a different way. I

21:51

wrote an article for Kotaki about how I

21:53

tried to romance Haley when I first played

21:55

the game. Who's the like kind of quote

21:57

unquote hot like blonde girl that you first

21:59

made? meet and she's kind of rude to you and

22:01

you're like oh man all right I would you know it's

22:03

a dating sims you're like I'm gonna give this and there's

22:06

bits and bytes

22:09

to like me by pressing and you

22:11

very much you can do the dating

22:14

thing of just like inserting gifts

22:16

until actually the person's like okay cool you

22:18

seem fine anyway but what I found with

22:20

Haley at the time was I did that

22:22

a little bit and she was sort of

22:25

not into it because there is a whole

22:27

complex like people like another time yeah and

22:29

she's also just I think kind of a

22:31

little standoffish for a little longer than other

22:33

characters and I found myself believing

22:36

in the character to the point that I was like oh

22:38

this this girl doesn't like me

22:40

like and that's fine and the article was

22:42

kind of about how the game wound up

22:44

for me at least recreating this realistic experience

22:47

of rejection just in like a kind of

22:49

gentle rejection of like okay well whatever especially

22:51

because her sister is Emily and I met

22:53

Emily and Emily's really nice and like funny

22:56

and sort of warm and I was like

22:58

oh I like Emily and just started hanging

23:00

out with her more socially and it was pretty

23:02

cool that like obviously I know it's a game

23:04

and I know these aren't real people and they're

23:07

written to fill these different arc as they were

23:09

dating her sister would maybe be kind of weird

23:12

right also that but like I think it's

23:14

cool that because he wrote these specific characters

23:17

yeah it allows space for you to sort

23:19

of understand them and then interact with them

23:21

in this believable way where in Animal Crossing

23:23

I mean you have like a rotating cast

23:26

of characters going through your town they're

23:28

not exactly procedurally generated but they sort

23:30

of are like there's different types

23:32

that are written and it just doesn't have that same

23:35

feeling of like you know Eric Barone

23:37

wrote this town and he thought of each

23:39

of these characters and he wrote

23:41

them each to be like a different archetype and

23:43

to fit into this kind of you know narrative

23:45

tapestry it's not literary exactly but it feels kind

23:47

of like a book about a small town with

23:50

all these different people or a TV show about

23:52

a small town where each person fulfills a different

23:54

role yeah Amber gets some credit too

23:56

because Eric used to go on long walks with

23:58

Amber like talking about the characters in their

24:00

relationships and their characters. Oh, that's so

24:02

cool. That makes a lot of sense

24:04

because the conversations are so strong in

24:06

the game. Yeah, and it feels

24:09

like from what I've seen, I haven't played

24:11

as much as the JVU, but it feels

24:13

like a game where he got some female

24:15

input for the characters. Yeah, for the female

24:17

characters. Yeah, which especially then.

24:19

Well, they're all, and each character is very well defined, yeah,

24:22

for sure. Yeah. So

24:24

have you guys, have either of you played the

24:26

new update that just came out and like seen

24:28

the new content in there? I'm curious to hear

24:31

about that, what has been added. And

24:33

the fact that eight years later, you're still

24:35

releasing new characters. I know. It's

24:37

crazy. Yeah, I mean, it's totally wild

24:39

how the game has changed since I even last

24:41

played it on Switch, like last did a dedicated

24:43

playthrough. There's a lot of stuff that I've never

24:45

really engaged with, one of the biggest being multiplayer.

24:47

Yeah. That you can just play this game with your friends

24:50

now, which is totally awesome and really different.

24:52

I mean, you can have a farm like

24:54

Minecraft style where you're each contributing to the

24:56

farm and each living in the town, which

24:58

is just like that opens the door to

25:00

a completely different way of playing the game.

25:02

I've never really engaged with that. Past

25:05

that, I mean, there are all these farm types now

25:07

when you start a new game, it gives you the

25:09

option of choosing from like a farm with a bunch

25:11

of islands and all this water running through it, which

25:13

makes it a lot easier to fish, because you have

25:16

a little less room for farming. Or I started

25:19

a farm in the woods, so it's kind

25:21

of like there's a lot more trees and a lot

25:23

more natural stuff so you can forage more easily, which

25:25

actually made it easier to make money early on. But

25:28

again, there's like less tillable land, at least at

25:30

first, so you can't develop and you can't make

25:33

as many buildings. There's a new

25:35

farm, I think it's new in 1.6 that like

25:37

is just for livestock. And you start with some

25:39

livestock, which is unusual. This is normally in the

25:41

game, you start doing that a little bit later,

25:43

once you have more money. So

25:45

it's totally built around that. And there's a new kind of

25:48

grass that grows. I think it's like this blue grass or

25:50

something that the livestock really like eating. And so

25:52

it makes it a lot easier to just have

25:54

livestock right off the bat. So there's all kinds

25:56

of stuff like that. I mean, that's like really

25:59

obvious because you start the game and it gives

26:01

you new options and he's added some of those

26:03

over the years. But then there's like there's so

26:05

much hidden stuff in this game right there. In

26:08

addition to the town and the kind

26:10

of animal crossing parts of it the parts

26:12

that feel like maintaining a farm and talking

26:15

to people there's like a whole adventure almost

26:17

action RPG built into this game as well.

26:20

Like I went really deep into the mine and

26:22

at least one of my playthroughs there's a mine

26:24

that you go through where each level is like

26:26

subsequently more difficult and there are monsters that you

26:28

fight you can like craft minecraft weapons like

26:30

a sword and a shield. You're like getting

26:33

unique resources down there. There's

26:35

a whole mystery that you're solving and you're like decoding

26:37

stuff and then you run out of time like you

26:39

just get tired so you can only go so far

26:42

before you run out of time each day but you're

26:44

like unlocked for custom. Kind of like a rogue like.

26:46

It feels kind of like playing a rogue like but it's built into the structure

26:48

of the game. You're like getting more

26:50

and more as you go. Was that in

26:53

the original release or was that out of later? Yeah that

26:55

was in the original release. Mine was there but he's expanded

26:57

it significantly. I think at some point he added I could

26:59

be wrong about this but I think he added a

27:01

second mine to that second location you take the

27:03

bus to and then so it's like the mine

27:05

has definitely expanded and I don't know what's down

27:08

there now. I mean I didn't get there in

27:10

my most recent playthrough at least not yet but

27:12

I'm sure there's like plenty more hidden stuff because

27:14

there are a lot of secrets and hidden codes

27:16

and like you know even when you walk around

27:18

the town when you first get there you'll see

27:20

like weird statues and stuff and think okay that's

27:22

gonna be either like there are still things where

27:24

I see them and I'm like I don't actually

27:26

really know what that is. You get to the

27:28

bottom and there's the sequel of the Stardew Valley.

27:31

It's a whole new game. You go through a portal

27:33

into a new farm and a new town. It

27:35

does kind of feel that way. I mean there

27:38

is also like a couple of little magical parts

27:40

of the game like literal magic that happened. Like

27:42

we're making it sound like it's purely a

27:44

mundane reality but there's also magic in this

27:48

game and it is

27:50

deceptively deep. I mean I think that's part

27:52

of why it's so popular because in addition

27:54

to just kind of being a farming

27:57

sim that has all the farming sims. Chores

28:00

to offer chores positive complementary

28:02

chores It also

28:05

has all these other elements like you can be

28:07

a person who's just really into mining and is

28:09

like I'm just gonna go full Mining mode on

28:11

stardew or you can be somebody who's really into

28:13

fishing if you are I don't know what's going

28:15

on with you The fishing is

28:17

I'm against it. I'm against it on all good

28:19

way to make money I

28:22

will say are you good at fishing Kirk?

28:24

I'm not I find it Ordinarily difficult

28:26

in this game. No, I didn't do a lot

28:28

of fishing this most recent time So I can't

28:30

remember how good I am at it I know

28:32

that it's a very good way to make money

28:34

and I've definitely done a fair amount of it

28:37

There was definitely a period in one of my

28:39

playthroughs where I was constantly going down to the

28:41

beach Yeah, and talking to a guy and finding

28:43

the best places to fish Yeah, so it can

28:45

be useful for the economy, but I don't remember

28:47

it being particularly fun or being good at it

28:49

Yeah, but there are certainly weirdos who like can

28:51

I just say I played like four different games

28:53

over the past Months that each have

28:55

fishing mini games and they all drive me

28:57

crazy. They're all Everybody's

29:01

obsessed with fishing mini games and I

29:03

can't understand the appeal at all It's

29:06

bizarre because fishing games can be great We talked

29:08

about dredge on this show recently and how fun

29:10

it is to fish in that game I mean,

29:13

there are games that really do it. Well, of

29:15

course dredge is a fishing game They they really

29:17

figured out how to have a little mini

29:19

game where you have to sit around and

29:22

wait It's a game where you're actively engaging

29:24

the entire time I think the purport my

29:26

my lack of enjoyment is proportionate

29:28

to the amount of time You have to

29:30

just wait and stare at a screen which

29:32

is often the times of fishing mini games

29:35

as reflective of real-life fishing Thinking

29:37

about what makes the fishing mini game good So like

29:40

fishing is fun as a video game activity

29:42

because it has a lot of interesting mechanical

29:44

Tensions right a lot of interesting mechanical friction.

29:46

It's like tension on the line The line is

29:48

getting pulled but then you can't pull too hard like

29:51

a really good fishing mini game You're kind of have

29:53

to you can't ever do it or the line

29:55

all snap You know, you have to you can't

29:57

let it out too much or the fish will get away So there's a

29:59

lot of good push and pull and it's

30:01

pretty fun to do just in

30:03

a sort of, you know, mechanical friction kind

30:06

of way. But yeah, it also

30:08

has an element of randomness, right? Because you don't know

30:10

what kind of fish you're gonna get, which is a

30:12

big thing, I remember an animal crossing, like you pull

30:14

up a tire and you're just like, ugh, another tire.

30:16

But then sometimes you pull up like a really valuable

30:19

fish that you're very excited to go

30:21

and sell. So it has a lot of elements, I think,

30:23

that are very appealing. It's a little bit of a slot

30:25

machine, but it's a slot machine that's very fun to pull

30:27

the lever on. But then I

30:30

guess, I don't know, I'm trying to think

30:32

of fishing mini games that I really liked versus ones that

30:34

I haven't liked. And Dredge is a very good example of

30:37

how to do it right because I'm always

30:39

excited to catch what I'm gonna catch. And

30:42

I like the process of doing it.

30:44

This is a tangent, but it's kind

30:46

of interesting. Well, there's a waiting. Okay,

30:48

so the one that has been infuriating

30:51

me recently is just

30:53

one where you just have to wait and just

30:55

stare at the screen until an exclamation point pops

30:57

up and then you press a button when the

30:59

exclamation point pops up. Like those are

31:01

the worst kinds. Yeah, I mean, Sardu

31:03

has some waiting involved. And I think that

31:05

is the part of the game that I

31:07

both like and dislike. I truly have to

31:09

get into the mindset, not just with fishing,

31:12

but with the whole game of

31:14

waiting and being patient. Because

31:17

I don't really play with mods. So

31:19

especially if you're starting over, which I

31:21

did this most recent time, you

31:24

get exhausted, like the

31:26

game status exhausted so

31:28

quickly. Right. And it's

31:31

so frustrating in those first couple weeks because

31:33

you're like, well, I'm simply a

31:35

corporate drone. I of course can't cut

31:37

down more than two trees. Right, you're really out of

31:39

shape. I can't do anything. So I'm

31:42

going to just need to go to bed at 2

31:44

p.m. Like just from a realism

31:46

standpoint and a story standpoint, I think it's

31:48

very effective. But from a gameplay

31:50

standpoint, it is infuriating. And I did have multiple

31:52

moments, especially because I chose to play it on

31:54

my steam deck, but I'm playing it on steam.

31:56

And I'm like, well, if I installed

31:59

mods, I'd have to... figuring how to install them on

32:01

my Steam Deck. I don't want to deal with that.

32:03

And I don't want to go and sit at my

32:05

computer. You're saying you're too exhausted to deal with that.

32:07

I am, actually. I am saying I'm too exhausted to

32:09

do that. Your meter is bottoming out. My meter is

32:11

bottoming out. And you know, at 6 PM, when

32:13

I stop working and I want to play some

32:15

Stardew Valley, you know what I don't want to

32:17

do? I don't want to become exhausted by installing

32:19

mods for Stardew Valley. I just want to play

32:22

it. But I actually think

32:24

it's good for me, because it forces

32:26

me into a mindset that is

32:28

kind of more meditative that I really enjoy in

32:31

games that are of this type, where

32:33

I have to be really intentional with

32:36

all the actions that I'm taking. Like

32:38

in Stardew, I guess it's a size.

32:40

The thing you use to cut grass

32:43

with doesn't take up energy. So you can

32:45

kind of use that and be like, all

32:47

right, what are all of the grasses that

32:49

I want to clear? Like, it's

32:52

not going to take up any energy at all, so I can

32:54

clear as much grass as I want. But

32:56

there's a cup of rocks that are just

32:58

in a really dumb spot. So I'm going

33:00

to use up all of my energy on

33:02

just those for today. But you do actually

33:05

have to truly think through every single step

33:07

that you're going to take. And

33:10

that's probably good for me. I think I can

33:12

feel my brain being forced

33:15

into a different mode. I think that's a

33:17

large part of what makes a game so

33:19

appealing for people, is that the logistical friction,

33:21

the planning, the execution, the kind of like,

33:23

all right, here is what I want my

33:26

farm to look like. I am going to

33:28

make that happen when it is done after

33:30

all of the trials and

33:32

tribulations that I've gone through, all of the

33:34

energy that I expended, and the days I've

33:36

had to sleep way too early. It

33:39

will look like I envisioned it. And that is

33:41

the big appeal of this game, I think, or

33:44

at least one of the main goals of this

33:46

game. And what I think is kind

33:48

of interesting about that is that the game

33:50

winds up, if you're not careful, turning into

33:52

this productivity simulator that

33:54

actually embraces some of the

33:57

very things that the protagonist

34:00

this is supposedly leaving behind. And

34:02

that I think this is not a new observation

34:04

about this game, but it is a very true

34:06

one and one that I've found when I've played,

34:09

as I've sort of automated my farm and bought

34:11

sprinklers and made it so that I can make

34:13

more and more and more produce faster and faster.

34:16

The reason I'm doing that is because I want

34:18

to make money because I want to buy more

34:20

things for my farm and improve it. Have you

34:23

considered making only corn and working directly with government

34:25

subsidies? Well, and if you get really into min-maxing,

34:27

that is exactly what happens to you, is that

34:29

you grow only the most profitable

34:32

produce every single season, you start at exactly

34:34

the right time to make the most money,

34:37

and really soon you start to see how

34:39

a sort of capitalist, like

34:41

a series of capitalist incentives like we

34:43

have in our actual world can lead

34:45

to a massive monoculture where the entire

34:47

middle of the country is like corn

34:49

because that's the only thing that makes

34:51

any kind of financial sense to grow.

34:53

And it's kind of weird, you get

34:55

this perverse thing where there's one crop

34:57

everywhere. And it doesn't make environmental

34:59

sense, but it does make financial sense.

35:02

And that's not really a consideration in

35:04

this game. So man, here's

35:06

an apocryphal story that I saw on

35:08

the internet. I think like on LinkedIn,

35:10

one of those LinkedIn things or something

35:12

like that. Okay. So

35:15

this guy, this like American banker is in

35:17

South America on some trip and he's like

35:19

in a fishing boat with this fisherman, the

35:21

South American fisherman. And the fisherman is like

35:23

living with happy existence. He's catching fish and

35:25

going home and after a couple hours he's

35:27

going to take naps and hang out with

35:29

his family. And

35:32

the American guy, the banker is like,

35:34

hey, why don't you take

35:36

that extra time and catch even more fish? So

35:39

then you can make some money with the

35:41

surplus and then you can buy more boats and

35:43

then catch even more fish. And eventually you can

35:46

become this business owner and you can have tens

35:49

of millions of dollars. And the fisherman

35:51

looks at him and he's like, what would I do with that

35:53

tens of millions of dollars? And the banker is

35:55

like, well, then you can retire and then you could go

35:57

home and be with your family and hang out. And

36:02

that's kind of like that started that feels

36:04

like Stardew Valley and in a nutshell if

36:07

well you can Although

36:09

you can't you you can I don't know maybe

36:12

that's how can we apply that to Stardew Valley?

36:15

I think I think no I think that

36:17

that's like a very that's a great great

36:19

anecdote and like and very true to a

36:21

certain Way of playing Stardew Valley, and that's

36:23

what I think is really cool about this

36:25

game It's not just that one thing it

36:27

leaves room for you to become this like

36:29

master. You know super farmy

36:32

magnet Forming magnet who's

36:34

like making all the money in

36:36

the world and is super optimized everything and

36:38

that can be very satisfying Just from a

36:41

like you know video game brain standpoint But

36:43

you don't have to play that way this

36:45

game also makes it possible for you to

36:47

empower Jojo Mart to take over the town

36:49

and like ruin everything like you can

36:51

take what I would consider the evil path in

36:53

the game Yeah, there is a game in

36:55

a mart. Yeah, exactly that is possible

36:57

And then you can do some middle

36:59

ground like the way that I play

37:02

it where I do find satisfaction in Optimizing my

37:04

farm, but I like to get it to where

37:06

you know I'm kind of making enough that I

37:08

can build stuff if I want to but it's

37:10

not like super min maxed out And I have

37:12

enough time to just explore and get to know

37:14

townspeople and like go down their relationship storylines and

37:16

get to you know get to know them even

37:18

more and go down into the mine and find

37:20

weird stuff and explore and just Feel like I

37:22

have enough time to kind of do whatever I

37:24

want because you do have infinite time in this

37:26

game You can just keep playing you don't get

37:28

old you don't get sick and die You can

37:30

just go for years and years and years so

37:32

you don't really have that to worry about there

37:34

isn't that feeling of like Oh my gosh I'm

37:36

gonna run out of time that you can start

37:39

to feel in in real life and with that

37:41

constraint lifted You're free to live however you want

37:43

and maybe that's actually the the grandest fantasy that

37:45

this game offers is in time time Yeah,

37:48

yeah Wow That's

37:50

true I Feel

37:53

like it offers not only the fantasy

37:56

of time but also the constraints

37:58

of just a

38:00

video game rewarding you with dopamine?

38:03

Like, yes, real life offers you

38:05

that too, but not in quite

38:07

as literal a way. Like, you

38:10

do chores in real life and yeah, they might make

38:13

you feel good, but like not in the same way

38:15

that it makes you feel good to do them in

38:17

Stardew. And so that's why I think resisting the poll

38:20

of min-maxing is actually more difficult. I've never

38:22

done it in Stardew, but I am also

38:24

really sympathetic to it. And especially with new

38:26

people checking out 1.6, update

38:29

1.6, I've seen that debate emerge

38:31

anew where there are players arguing, like

38:34

you're playing the game wrong, but like

38:36

everyone is sort of equally right because

38:39

you can play it fully

38:41

min-maxed, corn demigod, or

38:43

you can play it just like

38:45

fully relaxed and just trying to

38:47

like meander around and just meet

38:50

everybody and go through the storylines.

38:52

And there isn't really a wrong

38:54

way to play, but the former

38:56

way does feel rewarding.

38:59

Like the game can't help, I mean, I don't

39:01

know, this is Eric Barone's fault because the

39:03

politics of the game are pretty right there

39:06

on its face, but because of the way

39:08

it's designed, it is satisfying to do things

39:10

correctly. Like Kirk said at the beginning, like

39:12

you do notice when your plants are not

39:14

growing at the exact same time or rate

39:17

because you didn't plant them correctly. So therefore

39:19

it is inherently motivating to have your plants

39:21

look all the same and pretty

39:23

and lined up. Like, I don't know. I

39:26

guess I'm saying that as a part of it isn't like

39:28

real life, but maybe people do have this problem in real

39:30

life. I don't have this much in

39:32

real life as I do in video games

39:34

though, because a video game can

39:36

look so perfectly cute. Well, that's the thing,

39:39

the outcome is more guaranteed. You know exactly

39:41

what's going wrong and how it's always done

39:43

a lot faster. You get feedback and in

39:45

real life, you often don't get feedback at

39:48

all. Yeah, yeah, that's true too.

39:50

And like- I guess I mean

39:52

specifically with plants. Like plants take a little while to

39:54

tell you what's going on. With plants is exactly what

39:56

I'm talking about. In real life, as

39:59

someone who has- plants are never giving us

40:01

feedback. Well, as

40:03

someone who is dealing with a yard, especially in

40:05

the last few weeks, I had to deal, you

40:07

guys saw my bamboo problem that I had to

40:09

deal with. In

40:12

real planting and yard

40:16

maintenance and all the things you have to do to it,

40:18

there's so many variables that you don't

40:20

know why a problem might be occurring. Or like I

40:22

have a basement flooding problem and that could be all

40:24

a billion different reasons. Whereas in a

40:26

video game, one of the things that makes the chores of a

40:29

video game so much more satisfying is that you know

40:31

exactly what is going wrong. That's

40:33

a really good point. And

40:35

if your basement flooded in Stardew Valley, that would

40:37

be like a plot point and there would

40:39

be a townsperson who's a plumber that you

40:41

would go to and there would be a

40:44

whole story line. Yeah. Whereas in real life,

40:46

you have to call four different plumbers. They

40:48

all give you different answers and different quotes

40:50

and you don't know who's trying to rip

40:52

you off or how much. It's just a

40:54

nightmare. That is largely

40:56

true of Stardew. There is a bit of

40:59

mystery in the game that I think is

41:01

part of its magic. You can get surprising

41:03

crops. You'll have a humongous, whatever, potato grow

41:05

or bean. It's just something like each of

41:08

the crops can kind of give you this

41:10

mega version that's worth a lot more. And

41:13

it's not always clear what it was that caused

41:15

that to happen. And it is a nice little

41:17

mechanical representation of just the way that plants surprise

41:19

you when you have stuff planted in your yard

41:22

or house plants. They can kind of do

41:24

something that you weren't expecting in a way that can

41:26

be really delightful. And I do like that

41:28

he included that in the game too. It's

41:30

not all exactly predictable at all times because

41:33

that would be almost to feel a little

41:35

bit lifeless at a certain point. Yeah, definitely.

41:37

I mean, I'm glad that

41:39

it's generally good surprises in Stardew Valley

41:42

because the basement flooding idea is terrible

41:44

and I hope Eric Trump doesn't do

41:46

that. Oh, there's a blight, some weird

41:48

bug that ate all your crops and you don't know

41:50

what happened. The locust infestation is

41:52

going to make the next several years of his

41:54

life hell. Well, that's just cross-punk. Right, right. There

41:57

are probably mods that turn Stardew Valley into frostpunk.

42:00

Yeah, you know, I'll have to look into that and

42:02

see if there's any Stardew Valley mods that are like

42:04

the Blight mod or like just like Stardew Valley

42:06

hardcore mod. Dark Souls-ass mods. Everyone in

42:08

town dies. Everyone hates you. Like

42:11

there's a plague and like everything is

42:13

affected horribly. Like why, I mean the

42:15

game, that's kind of the antithesis of

42:17

that game and that's why it ultimately is

42:19

pleasing even though it does have those moments

42:22

of friction and those moments that

42:24

the townspeople don't always like you.

42:27

It's still a video game and it feels really good.

42:30

All right. Well, I think we can leave it

42:32

there. Stardew Valley, if we haven't, if you haven't

42:34

already played it, if you're one of those listeners

42:37

that hasn't already played it, you should play it.

42:39

It's really good. I mean, we should be

42:41

convinced to you, I bet. I'm really, I've really,

42:43

really been enjoying playing it these past couple of

42:45

weeks and I'm like, I'm going to

42:47

spend my next month or so playing Stardew Valley. That

42:49

wouldn't be a bad use of time. It

42:52

would be. So on that note,

42:55

we'll be back in a second with my mercing.

43:22

On this Webby, please take a second and

43:24

go over to the Black People Love

43:26

Paramore podcast social media accounts and you

43:28

can find them at bplppod across

43:31

all social media platforms. Hit

43:33

the link in bio and vote for Black

43:35

People Love Paramore. Hi,

43:37

I'm Travis McElroy. And I'm Teresa McElroy. And

43:40

we're the hosts of Shmanners. We

43:42

don't believe that etiquette should be used to

43:45

judge other people. No, on Shmanners,

43:47

we see etiquette as a way

43:49

to navigate social situations with confidence.

43:51

So if that sounds like something you're into, join

43:54

us every Friday on Maximum Fun

43:56

wherever you get your podcast. And

44:01

we are back for one more thing. Kirk,

44:04

why don't you go first? Alright, I will

44:06

go first. I played a game while

44:08

I was traveling. I was traveling to

44:10

see the eclipse, which was amazing. And

44:13

while traveling I played a bunch of games on

44:15

my Steam Deck. And one of the ones that

44:17

I played is a new game that I played

44:19

on Steam. I'm not sure what other systems it's

44:21

on, but I know it's on PC. And

44:23

it's a game called Children of the Sun. That

44:26

is very cool, that I really liked. And

44:29

I think some of our listeners might dig

44:31

too. It combines a lot of things that

44:33

I really like in video games. So,

44:37

this is a game primarily developed at

44:39

least by a developer named Rene Rother.

44:41

I'm not sure if it's a solo

44:43

dev kind of thing, but it definitely

44:45

feels like the vision of one person.

44:47

Like it has a very strong authorial

44:49

voice behind it. It's basically a sniper

44:51

game that's a kind of mix between

44:54

puzzle solving and... I

44:57

guess it's really a puzzle game. It's like a sniper

44:59

puzzle game. It looks

45:01

really intense. It's a

45:03

very violently drawn game. It's a

45:06

little like Hotline Miami in

45:08

that very stylized, ugly, weird look.

45:12

And in it you play a young girl who

45:14

was raised in a cult out in the middle

45:17

of nowhere. And the cult is called the Children

45:19

of the Sun. And

45:21

you're basically escaping and wreaking

45:23

vengeance on everyone in the

45:25

cult for reasons that become

45:27

clear or ish. It's all a little bit

45:29

abstract, but

45:32

are explained in very

45:35

stylized and overwhelming

45:37

little cutscenes that play at various points through the

45:39

story. But it's very much a kind of sequential

45:42

indie game in that it's just a series

45:44

of little puzzle rooms that you have to

45:47

solve. Each one is, you are this girl,

45:49

she is circling some encampment of cultists, you

45:51

know, bad guys. And she has a single

45:53

bullet in her gun and she's gonna shoot

45:56

the bullet and has to kill all of

45:58

them. This is a very violent... and

46:00

very gorgor game, very kind of weird and

46:02

unsettling in a lot of ways. I saw

46:04

someone call it a feel bad game and

46:06

it is very much like a kind of

46:08

an intense gritty, you know, in that hotline

46:10

Miami kind of way. Nothing like

46:12

Stardew Valley on pretty much every level.

46:14

No, it's funny because I was

46:16

playing Stardew Valley as well to talk about it

46:18

for this episode. And then going back and forth

46:20

between the two, like, yep, these are very, very

46:23

different. Complete opposites. Yeah, they're

46:25

very different. It's really cool though. I'd say

46:27

that I would kind of compare it to

46:29

super hot and I would compare it

46:31

to ghost trick phantom detective. And

46:33

then in terms of its aesthetic, it does

46:35

have that hotline Miami thing. But the gameplay

46:37

is very kind of super hot meets ghost

46:40

trick. So you have a single bullet. Each

46:42

bullet kills anything that it touches, but you

46:44

only have the one bullet. But the thing

46:46

is, the main character is telekinetic.

46:48

So she can move things with her mind.

46:50

And as a result, you quickly unlock the

46:52

abilities to steer the bullet and to ricochet

46:55

it from person to person. So you'll be

46:57

looking into like, I don't know, like a

46:59

farmhouse with a couple guards out front. And

47:02

there's one guy up in the window of

47:04

the farmhouse. There's two people up front. And

47:06

like two people are staying next to a

47:08

car and the gas tank is exposed. So

47:10

you have to figure out how to ricochet

47:12

the bullet through all of those

47:14

people. And each time the bullet hits one target,

47:16

time kind of stops and you can re-aim it.

47:18

So you can just go from there. And as

47:21

long as you have line of sight on the

47:23

next target, you can like press the button again

47:25

and zoom to the next target. So you're kind

47:27

of drawing lines. And in that way, it feels

47:29

like Ghost Trick Phantom Detective, which if you remember,

47:31

that's a game where you're a ghost and you're

47:33

kind of trying to rube Goldberg your way through

47:35

these puzzles to save people's lives. And sometimes you'll

47:38

have to like jump up into an umbrella and

47:40

then trigger the umbrella to open, which then causes

47:42

it to fall down, which then puts you within

47:44

reach of the telephone that you need to have

47:46

rings so that someone picks it up so that

47:48

an anvil doesn't fall on their head. Like there's

47:51

a lot of kind of positional puzzle solving. And

47:53

this game is very similar. So as you're going,

47:55

it's like, well, there's no one staying next to

47:57

that gas tank. But if I hit that

47:59

gas tank... I'll have the ability to re-aim

48:01

myself again, which will give me the angle on

48:03

that last guy that I've been missing. And then

48:05

once you have the ability to steer the bullet

48:08

in midair, which feels like, you know, an Assassin's

48:10

Creed or whatever, you shoot an arrow and you

48:12

kind of steer it at a guy, then you're

48:14

really kind of driving around these increasingly complex puzzle

48:17

rooms. And it's really satisfying and

48:19

cool. It really has the

48:21

rhythm, like the editing rhythm of Superhot, which

48:23

is a slow-mo game where you kind of

48:25

like, time speeds up as you speed up.

48:27

It feels really similar in that like, time

48:30

freezes the minute you pull the trigger and then

48:32

guys start to move slowly and then you just

48:34

go through it and it ends in this very

48:37

abrupt, just like, dead, like text on the screen,

48:39

you know, you did it, you beat it. It

48:41

has that kind of in-your-face rhythm and energy as

48:43

well. I think this game is really cool.

48:46

I had first heard it, I think from our

48:48

former boss, Stephen Totillo, had played, I think, a demo

48:50

of it at some point and messaged me and was

48:52

like, dude, I think you'll really like this game because

48:54

it's just up my street. Yeah,

48:57

I really like this kind of

48:59

game. Yeah, it reminds me of

49:02

those games, like, from

49:04

your description, it reminds me of like, what's

49:06

it called, Shadow Gambit, like those types of games in

49:08

some ways, like those stealth-ish

49:11

sniper games. A little bit. It's not

49:13

really a stealth game. It's more Rube

49:15

Goldberg-ish. Yeah, it's more of

49:17

a like, shooting puzzle game because at least I haven't

49:20

finished it and I gather it's not super long, which

49:22

is good because it's very intense. I don't think like

49:24

a very long version of this would be, I feel

49:26

like there's a length that this game is probably gonna

49:28

hit, that'll be just the right amount. And

49:31

it isn't really sneaking, like

49:33

you're not, at least from what

49:35

I played, you're never like sneaking around behind people.

49:37

No, yeah, that's, I mean in the

49:40

sense that you're kind of looking at an environment

49:42

and figuring out where you have to shoot at

49:44

the exact right time, that sort of thing. But

49:46

yes, Ghost Strike seems like a good comparison. Yeah,

49:49

it seems really interesting. Yeah, it's

49:51

really cool. Yeah, I really dig it and recommend it.

49:53

I think, you know, there might be a

49:55

demo of it that you can play, I believe, so

49:57

anyone who wants to try it out can. Children of

49:59

the Sun. Interesting. Yeah, I think it's

50:01

kind of a bad name Like I think it

50:03

should have been called ricochet or something like something

50:05

that implies what it's actually about Yeah, children of

50:07

the Sun is a little bit vague. But anyways,

50:09

really cool game worth checking out We've certainly heard

50:12

worse game names. So I really like at least

50:14

it's like it's kind of evoking the cult and

50:16

that's what it's about Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, not

50:18

too bad. All right, I'll go next so I

50:20

played a board game called wingspan

50:23

But it's also a video game. This is a

50:25

pretty famous board game actually We

50:28

have yeah, so it's

50:30

got a lot of little pieces So the reason

50:32

why this board game came into our house is

50:34

because it was my wife's birthday and she's an

50:36

avid bird watcher and so a

50:39

friend of ours got wingspan for her as

50:41

a gift and We played

50:43

it over the weekend and Dina was

50:45

like 110 Obsessed

50:48

with this game and there's single-player mode

50:50

of the board game that she continued

50:52

playing While I played

50:54

something else because I was like,

50:56

this is a lot of mental

50:59

work But I do think

51:01

it's I recommend it Uh,

51:03

especially if you like bird watching or

51:05

anything akin to that because it's an

51:08

extremely Detail oriented game so something

51:10

about the game that struck me is pretty

51:12

funny right off the bat Is that like

51:14

immediately in the tutorial booklet? They're like, okay

51:17

So we have a lot of little food

51:19

tokens for each of the birds because the

51:21

point of the game is you're building an

51:23

autobahn society And you're collecting birds But not

51:26

all of the food tokens are precisely accurate

51:28

to what those birds eat and we

51:30

know that It was almost like they

51:32

were like we don't want to get any angry letters

51:34

about this We only have

51:36

four food tokens here and we're aware

51:38

that the birds eat different things But

51:41

we had to consolidate somewhere and I was like

51:43

this game is amazing I'm

51:45

already So happy

51:47

that this game is like already like

51:49

coming out here being like listen We

51:51

know a lot about birds and we

51:53

know that you the purchaser of wingspan

51:55

probably also know a lot About

51:58

birds and you can find different

52:00

expansions for different parts of the world if

52:02

you want different birds. So we have the

52:05

North American birds. Dina knows every single

52:07

bird and what they eat. I

52:09

am learning as I go along. The

52:11

other massive credit that I can give to this

52:14

game is that it has

52:16

an extremely good tutorial system. So

52:18

they actually give you multiple

52:20

booklets that are like, here, play this

52:23

fake version of the game before you

52:25

play the real game. And it kind

52:27

of continues into the real game, but

52:29

like the first five turns or so,

52:32

it's telling you what

52:34

to do for every single turn and

52:36

why. Because it's extremely complex. Like this

52:38

is a game where you're like punching

52:40

little things out of cardboard for like

52:42

an hour before you even set up

52:44

the game. It's like think settlers of

52:46

Catan, but like several steps

52:48

beyond in terms of little fiddly bits

52:51

that are all over your coffee table for

52:53

this experience. So each of us has

52:55

a booklet and it tells Dina,

52:57

like for your first turn, here's what you

52:59

should do. Place a bird card on the

53:02

board. That indicates this. Here's what you should

53:04

feed the bird. Here's how many eggs the

53:06

bird's going to lay. Eggs are currency. Food

53:08

is currency. There's multiple dueling currencies in order

53:10

to unlock the birds for your Audubon Society.

53:13

And there's a complex system of points by

53:15

which your Audubon Society is graded at the

53:17

end of the game. And

53:19

that's essentially the game. It's just that

53:21

in practice, it's significantly more complex than

53:23

that. And if we hadn't had these

53:25

little tutorial booklets, I can

53:27

promise you I never would have understood this game,

53:30

like ever. I truly needed

53:32

it to tell me exactly what to do. And

53:34

it kind of like it walks you up to

53:36

turn five, and at turn five,

53:38

it was like, and now play the game. And

53:40

I was immediately struck with terror. I was like,

53:43

I don't know. I don't know how to play

53:45

a bird card. I don't know where I am

53:47

right now. But I got

53:50

through it. And then I ended up being like,

53:52

this is actually really cool. It's actually, I learned

53:54

a lot. And I like any game where I

53:56

learned a lot. And I will say,

53:58

though, like, if you have a somebody

54:00

in your life like Dina is who really

54:02

enjoys bird watching and really enjoys a game

54:04

that is fiddly, for lack of

54:07

a better term for this genre of game,

54:09

like very precise, very

54:11

like lining up by little numbers and

54:13

making sure everything works together. Like if

54:15

you have someone in your life who

54:17

has these qualities, you

54:20

must get them wingspan. You must, you

54:22

must. And there's a video game version

54:24

apparently, which is preferable in

54:26

my view if you don't want little fiddly

54:28

bits. Our cats were

54:31

really excited about this game and really

54:33

excited for things they aren't allowed to

54:35

play with. So that's a concern. But

54:37

yeah, wingspan. Yeah, well, it's really just

54:39

these little eggs that they wanted to

54:41

steal and bat around. So that I

54:44

don't know, I did enjoy it though.

54:46

But Dina enjoyed it significantly more than I ever

54:48

could have imagined is perfect present for her.

54:51

Didn't they just release worm span, which

54:53

is about dragon version of this? Yeah,

54:55

it's like a fully fictional version of wingspan,

54:57

which I think is maybe a little less fun.

54:59

We did have a review on polygon that was

55:01

about that and was about I mean, it depends.

55:03

I mean, of course, people can disagree. But there

55:06

is sort of a difference between having a bunch

55:08

of fictional dragons and you're sort of like creating

55:10

this menagerie of dragons

55:12

and they have fictional staff as opposed

55:15

to the lovingly

55:17

pedantic levels of bird

55:19

knowledge that is present

55:22

in wingspan, which is fully accurate.

55:24

Beautiful paintings of these birds on

55:26

every single card. The art is really lovely. It's

55:29

really like if you it's

55:31

I understand almost like the divide between like

55:33

the interest in something like wormspan, which

55:35

is like it's fictional versus wingspan, which is

55:38

like, this is for bird nerds. That

55:40

is who it's for. That's who it caters to. And

55:42

that is why it's fun. And

55:45

they might be different audiences. But Jason,

55:47

once you're one more thing. Did you know that there

55:49

is an entire war between

55:51

people who are think that

55:53

the feral cat population is trying is killing all

55:55

the birds and the people who want to protect

55:58

the Yeah, man, did you listen to the Yeah,

56:00

yeah, that's it. There's a search engine episode, which is

56:02

fascinating. I didn't know anything about cats. Yeah, it's really

56:04

good thing. Yeah, it's really amazing. We

56:06

should link that. That was a really good episode. I

56:08

think people will do the good episodes. Yeah, it was

56:10

a really good episode. A really intense episode. A PJ

56:12

Voz podcast search engine. My one more thing is Fallout,

56:14

the new TV show on Amazon Prime. We're

56:16

going to get into this a lot more when

56:19

we do our bonus episode on it later this

56:21

month, but I have really been enjoying

56:23

it, so I just thought I would share it as

56:25

a quick one more thing. The

56:28

show is, of course, set in the world of

56:30

the video game series of the

56:32

same name, which is

56:35

a world in which America

56:37

has been destroyed by a nuclear war,

56:39

but before it was destroyed, nuclear

56:44

fission was popularized and turned

56:46

into the dominant form of

56:49

technology. Therefore, America

56:52

maintained and preserved its culture from the 1950s, so

56:54

it's got this really

56:56

unique culture and the

56:58

games and also the show of this

57:00

really unique aesthetic of 1950s

57:03

crooning pop songs and dresses

57:06

and TV looks,

57:09

the CRT look, combined

57:12

with high-end technology stuff.

57:14

It's a really interesting world, and

57:16

it's also hilarious and dark and

57:18

bleak and full of

57:20

all sorts of juicy satire

57:23

and post-apocalyptic goodness. The

57:27

show works really, really well. It's really, really good. I

57:30

think one of the main reasons for that

57:33

is that it's a TV show, and I

57:35

think we found now that with this and

57:37

The Last of Us, that video games adapt

57:39

really well to kind of prestige television. The

57:42

reason for that is because the Fallout games

57:44

are all about going on side quests and

57:46

diversions and exploring, and the show allows for

57:48

that. There's that line, right? The

57:52

rule of the wasteland is you're going to get distracted by

57:54

emulsion. Early

57:57

in the second episode, there's a scene where one of the

57:59

main characters... this guy is this kind of

58:01

like member of the Brotherhood of Seal, this

58:03

is a zealous militaristic group. Um,

58:05

he finds these two people fighting and one guy

58:07

is like choking out the other guy. And so

58:09

he jumps in, he intervenes as he would, if

58:12

you were playing a fallout game and like you

58:14

saw in the corner of your eyes, some two

58:16

guys fighting. And so, uh, the, so our main

58:18

character is grabbing the first guy. The second guy

58:20

is like, why thank you. Good sir. Like, and

58:24

he runs off into the, into the wasteland.

58:26

And the first guy is kind of like

58:28

looking at him for a lonely, he's kind

58:30

of like, man, like it's just

58:33

guy was fucking my chickens. It

58:38

was like the perfect fallout side quest. You

58:40

think you're doing something noble and good.

58:43

And then there's this perverse subversion of

58:45

your expectations in the funniest possible way.

58:47

So, uh, I really enjoyed the show.

58:49

I think that is kind of a

58:52

good, a good encapsulation of it. Also

58:54

the one of the lead characters, um,

58:57

Ella Purnell, uh, from Yellow Jackets

58:59

plays the chapter named Lucy and

59:01

Lucy is also from Arcane Dweller

59:03

who, um, has to go

59:05

into the wilderness, go into the wasteland and

59:08

rescue her father. Kind of the inverse of

59:10

a Fallout fours plot where you are the

59:12

father going to rescue your kid. Um,

59:14

and she, uh, she is

59:16

a great main character

59:19

because she's very naive and she kind of acts like

59:22

the player character of the game where

59:24

she just goes around and talks to

59:26

everybody and, and does that question. It's

59:30

like she's playing on in the way that I often

59:33

play games where I'm like, well, I have to be

59:35

nice to everybody. She's

59:39

a standout. Um, and yeah, the show's

59:41

really enjoyable. We'll talk about it more

59:43

in the future. So stay tuned for

59:45

that. Yeah, I'm really liking it and

59:48

I'm excited to do a Beanz cast on

59:50

it. It's really good. Yeah. We finished it over

59:52

the weekend and you know, I liked it too.

59:54

Even as someone who's never played a Fallout game,

59:56

I'll I'll give that pitch for the listeners who

59:58

are like, if I don't like Fallout. but she

1:00:00

thought it was hilarious too. I think it's

1:00:02

very approachable. So you have another spousal endorsement.

1:00:04

Emily doesn't really like violent stuff, and the

1:00:06

show is extraordinarily violent. I will say that

1:00:08

people should know that it's like really violent.

1:00:10

It's quite bloody. But she's into it. She's

1:00:13

still hanging with it even though it's got

1:00:15

so much violence because we're enjoying it so

1:00:17

much. That's good to know. It's a

1:00:19

lot of like comedic violence and

1:00:21

non-human character violence, like, you know,

1:00:24

hated cockroaches. Some

1:00:26

violence on animals. I know. That's

1:00:28

a little tough, yeah. We're getting through

1:00:30

it. It's such a fun show anyway.

1:00:33

But it works for us anyway. Yeah,

1:00:35

it's very, very good. All right, with

1:00:38

that, we've done yet another episode of Triple

1:00:40

Click for you folks. And

1:00:42

we'll leave it there. See

1:00:44

you next week. All right, see you both

1:00:46

next week. See you next week. Bye. This

1:00:51

Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, of Maddie

1:00:53

Meyers and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and

1:00:55

mix the show and also wrote our theme music.

1:00:57

Our show art is by Tom Gije. Some

1:01:00

of the games and products we talked about on this episode

1:01:02

may have been sent to us for free for review consideration.

1:01:04

You can find a link to our ethics policy in the

1:01:06

show notes. Triple Click is a

1:01:08

proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast

1:01:10

Network. And if you like our show,

1:01:13

we hope you'll consider supporting us by

1:01:15

becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Find us

1:01:17

on Twitter at TripleClickPods and email the

1:01:19

tripleclick at maximumfun.org and find a link to our

1:01:21

Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening.

1:01:24

See you next time. Whoa. Maximum

1:01:49

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1:01:51

network. Of artist-owned shows.

1:01:53

Supported directly by you.