0:04

Greetings, traveler. I am Prince Tetradon

0:06

and oh, that glint of recognition

0:08

in your eye. You've done your

0:10

research, haven't you? Welcome

0:13

to TripleClick, where we bring the games

0:15

to you. This week we talk about

0:17

lore, as in background and backstory. That

0:19

book you find while exploring a cave

0:21

that tells you all about Prince Tetradon?

0:24

He's a real dick, by the way. I'm

0:30

Maddie Meyers. I'm Jason Schreier. And

0:32

I'm Kirk Hamilton. And hello. Hello.

0:35

It's us again. We made it

0:37

back. Welcome back. We sure did. Back

0:39

to the table. Back to the three-sided

0:41

table once again for an episode of

0:43

TripleClick. The Triforce table. The Triforce table.

0:46

And who else is sitting at

0:49

the table but a silent maximumfun.org

0:51

entirety of the co-op? They're

0:54

all here with us. So that's like Kirk on

0:56

Discord the other day saying like, all four of

0:58

us. I played the

1:00

most of the four of us. Yeah, let's call him out for

1:02

this. That was bizarre. Earlier today,

1:05

Kirk forgot that we only have three people

1:07

on this show. But in a way, we

1:09

have all of maximumfun.org with us and we

1:11

also have all of you, the listeners, with

1:13

us. Our silent fourth

1:15

host. And in Seats of Honor,

1:17

we have people who go to

1:19

maximumfun.org/join and become members of Maximum

1:21

Fun. Now why would you even

1:23

bother to do such a thing?

1:26

Well, maybe because we

1:28

record monthly bonus episodes and if you become

1:30

a member, you can listen to those. And

1:32

this month we're going to record one about

1:34

the Fallout TV show that's really good and

1:36

we're going to spoil the heck out of

1:38

it. We're going to spill the beans on

1:40

it and that's what we call a bean's

1:42

cast on our bonus feed. But there's a

1:44

whole bunch of other bonus episodes in the

1:47

backlog there that you can

1:49

have access to if you go to

1:51

maximumfun.org/join. But that's not the only

1:53

thing I have to say. I also want to say that

1:56

we are going to do a live triple

1:58

click show on the West Coast. We're

2:00

going to LA baby,

2:03

sunglasses on. We

2:06

are LA triple click. We

2:08

are doing it at the

2:10

Teragram Ballroom on Saturday, June

2:12

8th at 6.30 p.m. Come

2:15

on over. There will be a link in the

2:18

show notes. Do you buy a ticket? Please buy

2:20

a ticket. Please come see us. We're

2:22

hilarious and amazing in person. And

2:25

I know it sounds like I'm just saying that. You sound

2:28

a little desperate there, Maddie. I'm

2:31

not desperate. I don't even care if you go. Should

2:33

I be more fun to talk about it? I don't

2:35

know, whatever. Go with the what? Yeah, we don't come.

2:37

We don't need you. We don't give a shit. Yeah,

2:41

who cares? Not us. I don't even prefer you came

2:43

though. We would like you to come, however. Yeah,

2:46

I think you should go. Anyway,

2:49

Kirk, what are we talking about on the show

2:51

here today? On the

2:53

show here today, we are talking about

2:55

lore. And I'm not talking

2:57

about Data's evil twin brother. Well,

2:59

why not? Gonna get that joke out of the

3:02

way up top. Great character. Really funny

3:04

naming convention there. One character's named Data.

3:06

The other one's named Lore. Can't go

3:08

wrong. All right. Can't go

3:10

wrong. Anyway. But no, we're talking about the

3:13

rise of lore in storytelling and world building

3:15

and in video games because it's become a

3:17

more common term to the point that it's

3:19

just kind of a generally accepted

3:21

concept. People will just talk about the

3:23

lore. Oh, well, this is explained in

3:25

the lore. And oh, well, if

3:27

you know the lore, you know that that guy

3:29

was actually supposed to be the king and in

3:31

the lore and et cetera. And everyone kind of

3:33

knows what that means, but it's not really a

3:36

term that we've specifically dived

3:39

into and tried to kind

3:41

of pick apart and understand a little

3:43

bit better. So I thought that would be kind of a

3:46

fun topic to talk about here in relation

3:48

to all the games that we've been playing recently and

3:51

just our thoughts about it In

3:53

general. So I Guess before we get into it, I'll

3:55

say some sort of a definition of lore. It can

3:57

mean a lot of different things. I Think for our

3:59

intes... That's and purposes it basically refers suits

4:01

the background writing that supports any fictional world.

4:04

And this doesn't have to just be video

4:06

games though, it's common and video games so

4:08

it's the historical events, the geographic in geological

4:10

features of the world, the different cultures, the

4:12

things that you only learn outside of the

4:14

main story. like not you know things that

4:17

are explain to you by a character in

4:19

are central to the you know mean conflict

4:21

of the story but more just a will.

4:23

The reason that you were in that kingdom

4:25

and the reason that was all decrepit was

4:27

there was this plague a thousand years ago.

4:30

And he only learned that if you to

4:32

read this one book in this one cave

4:34

but it's actually really interesting. was know that

4:36

is adequate skills that supports the minute you're

4:38

starting to talk like that you're talking about

4:41

lore. So yeah I guess this is a

4:43

pretty broad topic and we can talk about

4:45

a hundred we want certainly have lot of

4:47

thoughts about it and I'm sure the to

4:50

he do to south west as tennis start

4:52

with general thoughts on lore and how that

4:54

sort of world building and that sort of

4:56

extra writing ten help a story and how

4:58

it can hurt a story. Sir Any

5:00

general thoughts: Married. Maybe you'd have. So

5:03

are Ah. I guess I'll

5:06

start by saying that I'm

5:08

really bad at reading encyclopedia

5:10

and cheese and video games

5:12

and I think that's to

5:14

my detriment. In the age

5:16

of. Lore that we have now

5:18

entered into. And I have had

5:20

to get myself on board with more in

5:22

the fashion by yourself because the use to

5:25

the said. I could really ignore that. say

5:27

it like I might and leader read it.

5:29

all sides is kind of play a video

5:31

game and I'm not as you're reading all

5:34

the books and skier him. I'll admit it,

5:36

I haven't read a single one and now

5:38

is just fine for me. I don't think

5:41

I needed to read. The. Don't even read

5:43

the last year Gonium May I mean I'm

5:45

familiar with the best. When I haven't

5:47

I haven't sat down and some three the whole

5:49

thing. Our. Our Lp the internet seek asylum

5:51

actually is that the books are quite short

5:54

see you don't need to send very long

5:56

and and or and have very big texts

5:58

are very easy to. In

6:00

front of like a modern Final Fantasy game

6:02

for example are the one that we

6:04

all played recently. When is that sixteen? I've

6:07

lost track of how many number. Though there

6:09

are too soon. Yeah, there's quite a bit

6:11

of encyclopedia entries in that game. They're actually

6:13

super helpful if you read them. So that's

6:15

a recent example. The game where I was

6:17

like i actually feel like this is gonna

6:20

help me understand what's. Going all that wouldn't

6:22

be the lore thou or just be like a

6:24

reference guide to what's going on as of unknowing

6:26

back around. And for the Haunted House of oil

6:28

bit of a fine distinctions yeah into that coughing

6:30

or you would pause it. And yeah, Amazon Tv

6:33

style like Pop Up would. Yeah and you day

6:35

elect people. I. I kind of. I

6:37

appreciated that too, because I think. I'm

6:39

in Asia Bargains visa. I. Need

6:41

to follow this. and and I do

6:43

think that that I mean whether we're

6:45

going to call that lord not it

6:48

is backstory, relevant information. From of it is

6:50

certainly more. yeah. N n it it

6:52

is something that for somebody like me

6:54

who doesn't typically explore a cave and

6:56

read a book in it or maybe

6:59

Alex for occasional find a book but

7:01

I won't read it. I'm there to

7:03

play video games. This it does help

7:05

me to have that that additional invitation

7:08

to. Check out the war. The. Reason that

7:10

I do that distinction many as he

7:12

says laura further intensive and purposes of

7:14

this conversation is I am thinking of

7:16

it as stuff that a supplemental less

7:18

of that is integral to understanding the

7:20

story and the weirdest know marathon and

7:22

like everything in those guys as like

7:24

essential the understanding what's going on as

7:27

as rare as the suffering is this

7:29

as or and rain immodestly lake itself

7:31

stuff that has been explained as of

7:33

as when I think of Laura I'm

7:35

thinking of like this deep backstory about

7:37

this new Tv just ran into as

7:39

Curtis described. Itself him for example I'm

7:41

I would think of when I think

7:43

about more Irish of the see coding

7:45

teams that is relevant to my one

7:48

more thing which I'll get into later

7:50

and the reason I think of that

7:52

is because those teams are all set

7:54

in the same universe and so they

7:56

have. This is deeply deeply like detailed

7:58

shared backgrounds where you can understand you

8:00

can play the games and understand the

8:03

sorry without knowing the kind of the

8:05

back story behind this country of harmonia

8:07

that is kind of this ever present

8:09

can a figure within the games. But

8:11

if you do understand that your have

8:13

a deeper appreciation for when this character

8:15

from our money comes in into something

8:18

crazy Stats and then they think is

8:20

is kind of as into lore is

8:22

really interesting in a way that it

8:24

kind of. It can really enhance your

8:26

a preseason our understanding or enjoyment of

8:28

things whereas if you ignore. It of

8:30

the seventh Son. Well then you're perfectly

8:32

fine. So Pharmacy Sixteen if you ignore

8:35

you don't need to know. thus a

8:37

d backstory of of the city's you're

8:39

going into to. Understand the

8:41

story but if you do may be

8:43

appreciate him or and south. I find

8:45

that like Laura's most kind of useful

8:47

and insightful and it's something that I

8:49

want to a more invested and when

8:51

it's shared across multiple genes that I'm

8:53

enjoying and so therefore I can get

8:55

connected to all of it like I

8:57

would. a big tv series is something

8:59

like that. Am a science. It

9:02

isn't interesting distinction and there's just some

9:04

fuzzy miss here between more into the

9:06

world and didn't hardened or batters are

9:08

already, there's always gonna be some overlap

9:10

of sir. I think the first time

9:12

that I finished the Witcher three, I

9:14

didn't really know that much and I

9:16

know really what was going on. my

9:18

i don't fully understand some of what

9:20

was happening like by the end you're

9:22

talking about. you know there are those

9:24

elves from another plane and they're working

9:26

with Siri because she has of the

9:28

older blood. It's and it's the confluence

9:30

of the sphere that. is called is

9:33

happening and that causes this opening that's

9:35

gonna like cause some huge apocalyptic event

9:37

like a winter the killzone bad way

9:39

and replace nils garden the emperor who

9:41

wants her to become the emperor it's

9:44

a lot of very complex it to

9:46

keep straight because it's based on this

9:48

like long running book series that's really

9:50

complicated and the first time i played

9:52

through i was like a clan just

9:54

became awaits a goldfish i was in

9:57

the moment like whatever it's like i

9:59

like siri and I want Geralt and Ciri

10:01

to like be safe and okay and friends with one

10:03

another and to have a good relationship and that's all

10:05

that matters like and then I kind of let all

10:07

that stuff fall away and still really enjoyed the game

10:10

and thought it was really grand and

10:12

exciting and you know liked it and then the

10:14

second time I played it I went back I

10:16

think I wrote a lore guide for Kotaku and

10:18

I went and like read some of the books

10:20

and like learned more about what was really going

10:22

on and then I was like, okay playing it

10:24

the second time it was way more rewarding because

10:26

I was like, oh I totally know who all

10:28

these people are and like all these conflicts and

10:30

there's all this subtle stuff going on with different

10:32

sorceresses and their history with Geralt and like it's

10:34

all there and it was really rewarding So it

10:36

really enhanced the story almost to the point where

10:38

I would say it's like essential Yeah,

10:40

and it's not lore It's just a very complicated

10:43

story with a lot of characters in it. And

10:45

so there's always gonna be kind of a like

10:48

Loose, you know, it's a little bit fuzzy between

10:50

those two things depending on the game But yeah

10:52

in a lot of games it really is just

10:54

like it's inessential It's not stuff that you really

10:56

have to know and like you were saying Jason

10:59

it can go from game to game I think

11:01

that's actually a really interesting thing that happened recently

11:03

with the remedy verse with Alan Wake Yeah, and

11:05

then control and Alan Wake to where you know,

11:07

I'm awake one I'm more in there great more

11:10

but I wouldn't describe Alan Wake one as being

11:12

a game that really had lore You're

11:14

like this writer some weird stuff happens.

11:16

You kind of get sucked into it I think

11:18

there are like some hints at like other remedy

11:21

games I believe or because all their games kind

11:23

of have them but they feel more like easter

11:25

eggs Not like a connected universe, which by the

11:27

way, we did a whole separate episode on connected

11:29

universe Yeah, we did but

11:32

I think that when control came out by

11:35

Setting by making it settings this like

11:37

bureau that pulls together all of this

11:39

information and has files that you can

11:41

go read About all these

11:43

different, you know supernatural paranormal events

11:45

including the events of Alan Wake

11:48

Suddenly it became much more of lore heavy where

11:50

you don't need to know this stuff But then

11:52

the more you learn it the more it kind

11:54

of enriches the world and then Alan Wake 2

11:56

comes out and very interestingly Is a much more

11:58

likely to be a more lore heavy game

12:00

because it's like folding in everything that happened

12:02

in control and the Bureau of Control turns

12:04

up and so suddenly you're in a world

12:07

where there are now lore explainers for the

12:09

remedy verse in Alan Wake because it helps

12:11

people better understand what just happened in the

12:13

most recent game. Yeah that

12:16

is definitely something that

12:18

I noticed in control that I was doing that

12:20

I don't typically do in games and I think

12:22

it's because reading stuff in

12:24

that game and then by extension

12:27

Alan Wake 2 feels so rewarding and that

12:29

really just tells us what we already know

12:31

which is that writing lore in any form

12:33

is difficult because you're writing

12:35

a long explanation with probably some

12:37

fantastical proper nouns if it's a

12:39

sci-fi or fantasy video game and

12:42

there's gonna be some complex stuff that

12:45

you need to explain but control does

12:47

it in a way that is so

12:49

fun and often funny and tells you

12:51

a lot about the world in these

12:53

little missives that don't take too long

12:56

to read they're about the length of

12:58

a Skyrim book that I apparently didn't

13:00

think was I was capable of

13:02

reading at one time in my life but I do

13:04

remember having that feeling while I was playing control of

13:06

being like wow I can't believe I'm reading this out

13:09

and I'm really liking it and I'm

13:11

actually trying to find it which is

13:13

truly just a compliment for control but

13:15

it also makes me

13:17

wonder why I struggle so much with

13:20

the lore and something like Elden Ring

13:22

which I sent hours upon hours of

13:24

my life into and yet

13:26

I couldn't tell you anything. I think one of the

13:28

things that video games so

13:33

video games traditionally have been kind of

13:36

mocked for their storytelling chops

13:39

in many ways we're not

13:42

gonna get into the history of video game

13:44

narrative but video game story has always often

13:46

been considered a weak point and I think

13:48

the main reason for that is that video

13:50

game stories are oftentimes missing the kind of

13:52

the fundamental nature of a

13:55

story which is that a character kind of

13:58

has a desire and then on the over

14:00

the course of overcoming obstacles to achieving or

14:02

not achieving that desire, they change in some

14:04

way. Video games don't really do that.

14:06

Often it's just like you, the player, are inhabiting

14:09

this character and you just have like

14:11

some... You have a

14:13

whole field to be. You do. That's changing

14:15

for you. And your power is, yeah, well

14:18

that is what kind of video games do

14:20

in lieu of actual character growth and change.

14:22

Exactly. It's what they sense to see. Yeah.

14:24

And I think that like when you have

14:26

a game that is dense with lore in

14:28

some way but you don't really have characters

14:30

that you can kind of glom

14:32

onto, that you can kind of

14:34

get attached to and enjoy, then

14:37

it's very hard to really care about the

14:39

lore for the lore to do much for

14:42

you. And that's why so many fantasy books

14:44

just like lose people with kind of like

14:46

endless prefaces of proper nouns before actually introducing

14:48

a character that you care about. Enjoying the

14:50

maps. The maps are always there. The maps

14:52

are fun. Yeah. But

14:54

the... So that I think

14:56

is a reason that Alan Wake and those

14:59

games with their very strong characters who

15:01

do grow and change quite a lot can

15:04

really grab you into their lore where as something

15:06

like Elden Ring for you, Maddie, might not grab

15:08

you quite as much. It's a lot more... The

15:10

barrier for entry is a lot harder when you

15:12

don't have a character, a main character, a protagonist,

15:15

or someone who is... Who is changing in some

15:17

way to kind of latch

15:19

into. Elden Ring is an interesting

15:21

one. All those soul games, they do have soul

15:23

games. They do have characters and those characters go

15:25

through their own stories, but none of that is

15:27

reflected in the game. You have to kind of

15:30

piece it together by watching videos

15:33

later. And

15:35

so that's kind of another way of telling stories is

15:37

having the story just be this kind of

15:39

like undercurrent that you have to kind of

15:41

figure out if you really want to. But

15:44

that I think is the main reason. I

15:46

Think that maybe you'll find, Maddie, that the

15:49

games where you get into the lore are

15:51

games where you care about the characters. Skyrim

15:53

is a similar way. There's no real character

15:55

to care about in Skyrim. Yeah, you're right.

15:57

You're just exploring a world and you can

15:59

have fun along the way with Cyclists and

16:01

stuff, but it's not like... the other main

16:03

characters going through some sort of gross or

16:06

anything like that and I think that time

16:08

to get into law or can often be

16:10

aided by having that compelling character. And firstly,

16:13

You. Know that's interesting. There's a lot that

16:15

you just so that we should say we

16:17

could go and follow a little bit more.

16:19

I think that one interesting. I too many

16:21

thoughts know that area as in there is

16:24

there. It's all really interesting because you know

16:26

more can be used in so deep. so

16:28

many different ways. It's interesting. That's true that

16:30

you can. I find myself more drawn into

16:33

learning about the lore if I've been drawn

16:35

in by the main story. Because first off,

16:37

I I trust the writers and a lot

16:40

of it really is just writing like Almaty

16:42

has good writers. And those control Mrs

16:44

This learned. It makes their funny and they're

16:46

interesting and you're like I'm like looking forward

16:48

to them because I know each one is

16:50

going to be a little delightful. weird mystery

16:52

or surprise or something where and to be

16:54

bureau in skier him. A lot of them

16:56

are just like mob live a history of

16:59

your know stuff from the former like I

17:01

don't. A hybrid was how a nurse and

17:03

I get the now I get it and

17:05

then sometimes those are fun or interesting like

17:07

they're certainly. you know some books in More

17:09

Winder Screamer whenever that are fun but you

17:11

never really know. It's a little. More pacifists,

17:13

but also their it. There are games

17:15

where there is basically no character development

17:18

at all and I'm thinking here of

17:20

Souls games kind of. But also Mm

17:22

o's are games like Destiny where you're

17:24

playing a character who is like ostensibly

17:27

the most important says and one but

17:29

your character doesn't even speak and like

17:31

isn't really a character and in Destiny

17:33

for example, that was a game where

17:36

those were the first games that I

17:38

encountered as both a games journalist and

17:40

as a person playing the game where

17:42

the. Lord became the Story. It was

17:44

very common thing to hear people say

17:46

it's actually destiny has great writing, It's

17:48

just not in the moment to moment

17:50

Things that Peter Dinklage is saying to

17:52

you as you go into a case

17:55

is in the weapon description of like

17:57

the last word and foreign. What are

17:59

these two guns. In the original

18:01

Destiny where if you read that weapons

18:03

like they weapon description the little flavor text

18:05

it winds up describing this really cool

18:07

like epic gun sight between this dark

18:09

and light gunslinger it's and then eventually you

18:11

kind of learn more of their story

18:13

and it winds up being is really awesome

18:16

story of like the ago time before

18:18

the fall when these two gunslingers faced off

18:20

and they're like the last word. he

18:22

went up finding out what that name

18:24

of the gun means and it's this really

18:26

cool story that you only uncover if

18:28

you probably if you watch. A youtube video

18:30

see how it works but or if you

18:33

really take the time to read these long

18:35

descriptions and and kind of piece it together

18:37

in your head and film the blasts. but

18:39

as something to do with the story of

18:42

destiny which is like especially the first game

18:44

super thin and almost nonexistent to the point

18:46

that it almost left people with nothing else

18:48

to do but start reading these item descriptions

18:50

that putting together the lore and treating that

18:53

like it was the main story. As such

18:55

a thing is a destiny is that really

18:57

changed destiny. Tears starting at around forsaken when

18:59

Cade died. Of I think it is

19:02

started becoming game a game about the other

19:04

characters in the way you use our sins

19:06

see that down with in a memo and

19:08

also other types of games or a kind

19:10

of a generic silence like customized mom protagonists.

19:12

The Cat the story happens to characters around

19:14

you. Phantom Menace yeah seen as like beloved

19:17

for it's stories and the story is told

19:19

through the characters are you are spending your

19:21

time with as that's the kind of the

19:23

silent ah here outs arm and so I

19:25

think that is is a good way to

19:27

sell that sir and to make you carry.

19:30

Of and more About the largest New is

19:32

an interesting phenomenon because he can release you

19:34

could sink your teeth into the Lords is

19:36

you were already committed to the games is

19:38

a fiery spent like so much time on

19:40

as they are like while I'm as well

19:42

learn more about out on Sunday others such

19:45

as as says like some guy getting at

19:47

is you might say that it's like really

19:49

good writing and it was. There was some

19:51

good stuff but there's no one in the

19:53

world who would care about the last words

19:55

backstories unless there are ready a destiny. Il

19:58

Divo yeah yeah says that has added. You

20:00

just showed that flavor text to

20:02

someone who hadn't played any of

20:04

this? Like, would they... No, it would not.

20:06

You would need like a short film or something.

20:08

You would need something to like create the character.

20:10

You would need to put it in context. Of

20:12

course. I think you could explain it as like... Which

20:14

I guess is the purpose of lore. It has

20:16

to be in context. Yeah, this is like an

20:18

item description and it's cool because it's doing this

20:21

certain thing. I think that person

20:23

who doesn't play the game would at least understand that

20:25

that's cool. But yeah, if you just read them like

20:27

and then Dredgen Yor and Sin Nal for a big

20:29

talk. Right. They would be

20:31

like, what are you talking about? Very dumb. I'm

20:34

sorry. Yeah, I think that

20:36

even with Skyrim, like if you

20:38

either had... If

20:41

you like were so into it that you knew exactly

20:43

what these proper nouns were, then it would be interesting

20:45

to you to read the history of like Tamriel

20:48

and all the different

20:50

domains within it and all that stuff. Either

20:53

if you were like kind of role playing on your

20:55

own and getting really into it in that way, or

20:57

if there were characters that could kind of like compel

21:00

you to be interested in it. But

21:02

there has to be something else. I think lore is

21:04

best thought of as a supplement to

21:06

other forms of storytelling, which is

21:08

often how it's used. It's

21:11

just that so many games are so dense with

21:13

the lore or like putting a lot more into

21:16

the lore than the actual kind

21:18

of storytelling arcs of characters changing.

21:21

And so nobody can really find

21:23

much to hang onto there. And it makes

21:25

sense, right? Because lore is kind of easier

21:27

in a way. I mean, a

21:29

question that I just wrote down that I hadn't

21:32

really thought about is, is lore generally conveyed in

21:34

games through writing rather than

21:36

through spoken characters actually

21:38

talking to you? Like it is... I

21:41

don't know if there's a clear answer to that question,

21:43

but I do think that more often than not, it's

21:45

stuff that you're just going and reading or maybe audio

21:47

logs that you're listening to. That's how I think

21:49

of it too. And I don't know if that's fair

21:51

on my part or not, but I also think

21:53

that it is. And I do

21:56

think that, and it's funny because I love to read

21:58

and we all do. I mean, we talk about... That

22:00

books all the time on the shelves,

22:02

but there's something about playing a game.

22:05

Especially in action game where I'm just

22:07

like I don't want to sit here

22:09

or stand here with my character, just

22:11

literally standing here looking at a piece

22:13

of paper. It just feels like. A.

22:15

Weird use of my time in a

22:18

game and I I had that suddenly

22:20

part of my struggle with how it's

22:22

implemented and so many cases and it

22:24

does help me. And. Perfect as

22:26

I like. Kind of role playing in the

22:29

sense that I like to imagine myself in

22:31

the game is is Jessie in control like

22:33

her? Picking up Mrs and reading them make

22:35

sense for her to do. She's trying to

22:37

figure out what's going on the same way

22:39

that I am by a in in L

22:42

than ring. I'm like okay of i just

22:44

can withstand and the great room and like

22:46

look at my sword for really long time

22:48

of and that's gonna like tell me something

22:50

about the world's I guess likes There isn't

22:52

even really an analog in that game that

22:55

explain. I how I. The character

22:57

and even finding out any

22:59

of this information. At.

23:02

All it's pretty different. Games are for another

23:04

horse baron Bank, they're being a little hard

23:06

on l during a game. I love what?

23:08

yeah it's a right. I think I wouldn't

23:11

criticize them along the same terms or along

23:13

same lines because especially in from soft games.

23:15

but in a lot of these games one.

23:18

Characteristic. Of Laura's that requires some

23:20

work on the part of the audience to

23:22

fully figure it out isn't given to you

23:24

primarily in the store. You have to go

23:26

and learn it. I mean this is true.

23:28

Yeah, like Star Wars stuff or like Marvel

23:30

Comics were. If you really know all the

23:33

characters you'll understand better what's going on like

23:35

this is true across a lot of types

23:37

of entertainment's that people are into a mysticism

23:39

and fallout and room watching the fallout. So

23:41

Israel has all kinds of really the floor

23:43

and there's a ton of it in the

23:45

show. If he watches you know I'm washing

23:48

with. I'm when I'm always like oh so

23:50

we can we say about the Enclave Wight

23:52

Festival that as I am has. I kind

23:54

of know that from the games and from

23:56

the reading but I think like with a

23:58

game like a from Five Team the work

24:00

is being done often by people like Vaught.

24:02

He video era I'm there's a really great

24:05

as he is Mossberg. It's something like that.

24:07

who made a huge movie about the lore

24:09

of Hello Night was just wonderful explanation of

24:11

the whole story and the world. It's that's

24:13

very similar to Of Activity Atlanta saying Season

24:15

Kirk here as I'm editing the episode just

24:17

to give proper credit where it's due. The

24:19

Hello Mate Laura video that I'm referencing is

24:22

by Moss Bag and it really is wonderful.

24:24

If you like hello my and you haven't

24:26

seen it I used to second and only

24:28

get in the soon as I'm. Guessing lot

24:30

of you have because it's a pretty popular

24:32

videos anyways. shout outs to Must Beg for

24:34

a terrific videos Okay back to the show.

24:38

People. Who are really good storytellers like those

24:41

to you to verse who do that work for

24:43

you can create something that kind of exists outside

24:45

of the game and it isn't that experience are

24:47

describing of like string on and reading stuff because

24:49

you can't really play l hindering that way it's

24:52

a little more accurate detective and then like I've

24:54

imagined vaccine video places games like a detective like

24:56

he goes on he likes of you. really fun

24:58

to talk to about how he plays. yeah something

25:01

like the new out and pretty obvious him yelling

25:03

i wonder how he plays that because if I

25:05

goes around and like read everything and has a

25:07

notebook and is kind of. Like sleuthing out

25:09

the story so the heat and then assemble

25:11

it since and tell it to people because

25:14

that's like his job. it's like what he

25:16

does for his channel and that kind of

25:18

work is really cool. Law as that's what

25:20

you just described as ourselves as way your

25:22

experience. lot of games like out our worlds

25:24

as a good exact route or while move.

25:26

A good example of suffered a d video

25:28

games is active in learning the lower. I

25:30

mean vacuum is an interesting one because it

25:33

doesn't have a story and the traditional sensors

25:35

now specter of making changes but you can

25:37

have uncover what happened in the past. And

25:39

what happens you kind of lead to

25:41

the events the are experiencing in there

25:43

in the present day and that is

25:45

ah really all more and that you

25:47

I guess you don't have to know

25:49

what's going on. I guess part of

25:52

the story said that the point of

25:54

the game is so learn the lore

25:56

am blessed. Yeah it's gas is it

25:58

manages to make a compelling. The thing

26:00

because a I think it creates enough

26:02

characters as part of the the lower

26:05

that you are watching these interesting characters

26:07

and kind of climbing onto them in

26:09

the same way described earlier but also

26:11

be because it just it dangles enough

26:14

mystery and can as if the premises

26:16

and seeing enough that you wanna know

26:18

what's going to happen next as as

26:20

which is another kind of integral part

26:23

of making lore ah matter to the

26:25

player is having mystery having something Tess

26:27

can of hang your hat on I

26:29

think horizon. Zero Dawn is another good example

26:31

of this or that kind of like overarching

26:34

mystery of like what what happened year, why

26:36

why reads in the future yet they are

26:38

finding relics from our modern day and and

26:40

would have to deal with as and you're

26:42

kind of ice uncovering. the more along the

26:44

way selling your living in Spain is indicated

26:46

that figuring out like a story that happened

26:48

in the past and and and watching and

26:50

unfolds. Yeah, so I totally agree. I've got

26:52

both of us down here in this. showed

26:54

up next to one another, Outer Wells and

26:56

Horizon Zero Down because I think they're great

26:58

examples of a very specific. Thing that's

27:01

Ten emerges more like world building

27:03

with like directed storytelling to the

27:05

point that you are the primary

27:07

narrative experience is uncovering what would

27:09

maybe otherwise be lore. So Horizon

27:11

Zero Dawn the first game is

27:14

a great example of this because.

27:16

That. Is like the best. Backstory:

27:19

Like audio bog story I've I've ever heard

27:22

found in a game like this and so

27:24

many other versions of Horizon Zero. Dawn was

27:26

as have that stuff just be kind of

27:28

color it would just be lured. You would

27:30

be playing through a story about a lawyer,

27:33

this outcast who finds a way to have

27:35

more power and everybody else and became such

27:37

as one and says everybody. But and then

27:39

you would be uncovering audio logs that are

27:42

explaining like what happened to the world but

27:44

what that game does that so brilliant is

27:46

that it makes a lawyer story and her.

27:48

Identity like the mystery of who

27:50

she is tied directly to Missouri

27:52

of the backstory looked of the

27:54

backstory of the world, the Lawrence

27:56

and as a result it transforms

27:58

the Lord's We. starts just feeling like

28:01

lore into something that's integral to the story into

28:03

her character and then it all knits together in

28:05

the end for the last few hours to the

28:07

point where I was like wow this is amazing

28:09

I've never really seen something like this before and

28:11

it was definitely like a narrative shortcoming of the

28:13

sequel as much as I did like that game

28:15

it just couldn't do the same trick again because

28:17

the lore it had already done it once and

28:19

you just can't do it twice. Yeah I mean we

28:21

already know who Aloy is for one and they could

28:25

have tried to invent a similar mystery but

28:27

it's difficult. Well they did they did invent

28:29

a similar mystery and that Aloy had a clone

28:31

and like you know I'm not saying

28:36

I'm not saying it worked I'm just saying that's what

28:38

they tried to do. Yeah they did yeah

28:40

that's true and I also I mean I

28:43

guess I'm using the word reward in a

28:45

weird way here but it does feel like

28:47

a reward to me when I read something

28:49

like in Horizon Zero Dawn I just was

28:51

reading a lot of the emails anyway because

28:55

a lot of them are funny and so you're

28:57

getting the reward of reading an email and being

28:59

like wow this seems like an email somebody really

29:01

wrote in the past that's fun I'm gonna keep

29:03

reading these emails and then later in the game

29:06

it turns out that all of those were actually

29:08

clues about what was really going on

29:10

and that feels like a double reward where

29:13

like not only are the individual pieces of

29:15

lore that are extraneous like you can understand

29:17

who Aloy is if you don't read anything

29:19

because they have too many out loud audiologues

29:22

so like make sure you get it I don't mean too

29:24

many in a bad way I mean they I mean they

29:26

make sure that you really understand what's going on even

29:29

if you don't want to engage with every

29:31

other piece of lore but if you do

29:34

it actually does feel like you were

29:36

rewarded for doing so and that kind

29:38

of encourages you as a player to

29:41

read everything which I feel like is what

29:43

a lot of people who are writing these

29:45

lore entries would want is for you to

29:47

actually read their hard work and see what

29:49

they did and and feel like it actually

29:51

added something to the experience Yeah

29:54

I think a big part of the success of

29:56

that game was the mystery that they yeah Ruit

29:58

You at the very beginning. The more

30:00

has to be answering a question

30:02

that you're interested in. The

30:04

answer and like a lotta times if you're

30:06

just in some fantasy kingdom and then you're

30:08

just reading books that are just like about

30:10

others, kings and stuff in as her was

30:12

as far as like the it's just if

30:14

you're looking at some kind of generic kingdom

30:17

when dragons and you're just not really wondering

30:19

why any of it's there because it's just

30:21

kind of take him you know at face

30:23

value your like will add a know it's

30:25

like a fantasy kingdom. There's no like of

30:27

course it's just whenever there was some king

30:29

before the next king and then the dry

30:31

you they drag on the yeah whatever It's

30:33

not very interesting but. In Horizon Zero

30:35

dawn it's like you walk into the

30:37

world and our robot dinosaurs everywhere. It's

30:39

and like relics of our of modern

30:42

slices and but now seems to know

30:44

anything about it and I'll have any

30:46

knowledge of history, know and has. Phones

30:48

are in the inventor anything they're. Just

30:50

like rubbing to six together to make a

30:52

fire at that. Your advice? Is to censor. You're

30:55

like what the fuck was is like it and

30:57

then you're immediately always. I was like I am

30:59

dying to know if they're ever going to explain

31:01

this. I didn't actually expect them to. I was

31:03

like I don't know wherever there's room a dinosaur

31:05

as he has his way to be a video

31:07

game where we live or die down and read

31:09

as a spy like that would be a separate

31:11

approached her world building and Lars but that's what

31:13

they do in a way of explaining at all.

31:15

And as you go and he's thirty read that

31:17

story you realizing that you're gonna get the answer

31:19

to this person and in addition just going back

31:21

to the quality of the writings I think. Also.

31:24

Just the apocalyptic yarn they spam. why it

31:26

happens, the rise of this ai that like

31:28

most is the world or whatever is just

31:30

like kind of horrifying and engrossing and I

31:32

just found that to be like and like

31:35

World War Z or something like of yeah

31:37

like as a series of little stories depicting

31:39

the end of the world that I just

31:41

really sound compelling and well written. The mystery

31:43

is really the key the curiosity gas and

31:45

ten of driving you as the players want

31:48

to know what happened mess and then on

31:50

a smaller scale version of it I think

31:52

of followed teams are really. good at tennis

31:54

putting you in these little micro mysteries where

31:56

you want to figure out the lord of

31:58

what happened. What happened here? You get somewhere

32:00

and you try to figure out what happened

32:03

here. And then you go on the computer

32:05

and you read some emails and it's kind

32:07

of the little, the story

32:09

of the- You get the Over Theorist

32:11

computer opened up. Exactly. Yeah. The vault.

32:13

Here's the history of the vault through

32:15

these ridiculous emails and- Something

32:17

they're doing well on the show. Very well on the show.

32:19

Yeah. Yes. Extremely well on the show. And

32:22

I think that that is a very good

32:24

application of lore that goes well beyond the

32:26

kind of, here's the history of this tiny

32:28

little village and how they used to make

32:30

cheese wheels, but then the dragon burnt their

32:32

crops or whatever. Yeah.

32:35

Yeah. It's not ideal. I wanted

32:39

to mention Zelda here because you have

32:41

this written down. Do you, Kirk, I

32:43

don't know that I would consider Zelda's

32:45

lore. I mean, I guess I'm using

32:47

the word lore, but I think of it as just the

32:50

story, but that's because so little

32:52

work in Zelda is written down, but that

32:54

doesn't mean that it isn't lore, I guess.

32:56

Like you're not walking around as Link. I'm

32:58

not convinced Link can read for one

33:00

thing, but also- This

33:03

is our ongoing theory about video game characters that canon

33:05

can't read. Are you talking about one specific Zelda game

33:07

or are you talking about all of Zelda? No,

33:10

because I'm talking about the lore of all

33:12

of Zelda and the fact that there is

33:14

a lore of Hyrule and what it is

33:16

and isn't, and it's

33:19

not known. And instead maybe I would

33:21

use the word legend to describe how

33:23

it's very effectively used in those games

33:25

in that it's like it's kind of

33:28

stories that characters tell to one another

33:30

that you hear as opposed

33:32

to books you find or

33:34

codex entries or emails. Although

33:36

I would love to see

33:38

Link reading some freaking emails

33:40

someday. Yeah, exactly. He would

33:42

be getting text messages on

33:44

there, but it

33:46

feels- it doesn't quite feel like

33:48

lore to me. It's more of

33:51

a myth, a series of legends

33:53

and mythology that everyone in those

33:55

games is dimly aware of in

33:57

various ways. It's really interesting that you say

33:59

that. because I think there's, I

34:01

think that Zelda has its own approach

34:03

to this that's actually closer to the

34:06

more proper definition of lore, which

34:08

is like, I think I wrote this down and I

34:11

was gonna open with a dictionary definition. Oh boy! American

34:14

Heritage calls lore, accumulated knowledge or

34:16

beliefs held by a group about

34:19

a subject, especially when passed from

34:21

generation to generation by oral tradition.

34:24

That's American Heritage Dictionary. So that's not like

34:26

lore in terms of video game lore, like

34:28

the way that it's used when people are

34:30

talking about video game writing, but

34:32

it's, the Zelda approach is a little

34:35

closer to like when we just think

34:37

of lore as like, that's just

34:39

what the lore says. It's kind

34:41

of like what word of mouth over the generation says.

34:43

There will be a hero, he'll wear

34:45

a green shirt. Exactly, no, and I

34:47

mean, it's presented in the world that

34:50

way, as like this is a story

34:52

from a long time ago and that

34:54

the hero would return. And it's different

34:56

in each game. And I think that

34:58

Nintendo, the writers of those games have

35:01

really approached it consciously in that way.

35:03

Like there are consistent things across Zelda.

35:05

When you play the games a lot,

35:07

you kind of have a sense of

35:09

the broader fictional, like imaginary space that

35:11

the game lives in. But there isn't

35:14

like this codex of information exactly that's

35:16

consistent from game to game to game and

35:18

is being elaborated upon in really like conscious

35:20

ways. It is a little closer to a

35:22

legend, like you say. I think like that's

35:25

certainly in line with this type of storytelling.

35:27

Like it's not really about being like super

35:29

strict about what does and doesn't qualify. Each

35:31

game approaches it differently. I think that the

35:33

Zelda games take an incredibly cool approach to

35:36

that kind of world building and storytelling because

35:38

it allows them so much freedom and allows

35:40

us to just kind of vibe

35:42

with it and interpret it however we want and let

35:45

it be different from game to game. Yeah,

35:47

I really like it too. And it's not

35:49

to say that I don't also enjoy something

35:51

like Horizon Zero Dawn that is so

35:54

kind of more regimented in its

35:56

storytelling where you really know what happened at

35:58

the end of that game. Like you're like,

36:00

okay, great, I know who Aloy is

36:02

and so does she. Like in Zelda

36:04

games, you kind of never do know.

36:06

Like we know there's going to be

36:08

a Zelda and a Ganon and a

36:10

Link, but we don't really know a

36:12

lot else about what could

36:14

happen game to game and we can't necessarily

36:17

look at some big book and be like,

36:19

okay, well, these are the, this

36:21

dragon is going to show up here and then. And

36:24

I really dig that. And I think it would

36:26

be kind of, it would be a completely different

36:28

series if there were timelines

36:30

that actually made sense. I mean, I think

36:33

this can frustrate Zelda fans sometimes and that

36:35

people really like to make regimented timelines in

36:37

Zelda games, despite that they buck

36:40

underneath that presumption

36:44

because they themselves like Breath of the

36:46

Wild and Tears of the Kingdom in

36:48

particular, like they don't really seem

36:50

to fall anywhere in the timeline that

36:53

quite works. And that is

36:55

part of what's interesting about them and

36:57

their lore. I get the sense

36:59

that it frustrates people even though

37:01

it, yeah, I think that

37:03

it can often make for stronger storytelling. I

37:05

mean, so many times a

37:08

game series goes on and

37:10

the people writing it start to add more and more lore.

37:13

And then eventually they kind of ruin what made

37:15

it special in the first place. It's a very

37:17

common thing. I mean, the Star Wars pre-poles not

37:19

in games, but that's like one

37:22

of the most famous examples of this of just being

37:24

like, okay, midi-chlorians or the reason the force exists. And

37:26

then suddenly you're like, wait, it was a lot cooler

37:28

when you just talked about the force and I was

37:30

imagining it, you know? And there's so

37:32

many examples of that in Star Wars

37:34

where Les was much, much more than

37:36

what they eventually explained. But man, I

37:38

mean, Dead Space, talk about a series

37:41

that started out really compelling with just

37:43

like no idea what the hell

37:45

is going on. There's definitely some world building going

37:47

on. There's like this cult of people who worship

37:49

this weird religion. Like there's, there are hints of

37:51

this at the fringes, but mostly you're

37:54

just on this cursed ship and there's like horrible

37:56

monsters coming at you. By the time they get

37:58

to Dead Space 3... It's

38:00

like totally ridiculous how much they've added to it

38:02

and it all just feels like extra weight There

38:04

are a lot of series that have done the

38:06

same thing. I mean Metal Gear is another example

38:08

I know people like love some people love the

38:10

world building and lore of Metal Gear But to

38:12

me just the more complicated it gets the

38:15

more Distracted I feel from the core of

38:17

the game and like when it feels like

38:19

it's trying to say it sounds like what

38:22

you're describing Is less the kind of historical

38:24

elements of lore and more the explanatory or

38:26

the kind of like? Attempts

38:29

at connecting things Connectivity

38:31

of the lore I guess I guess what

38:34

I'm describing. Yeah, it's the way the one

38:36

thing can kind of become the other thing

38:38

It's like maybe it's that in some games

38:40

what starts as just vague You

38:43

know lore at the edge is just because in the whatever

38:45

when you first play it There's a little hint that this

38:47

is there and that is there and there's like a little

38:49

note you found Eventually as the

38:51

writers just have to keep generating more

38:53

stories and flesh the world out They

38:55

start turning that stuff into the text

38:57

and it becomes what the game is

39:00

actually about This is something that

39:02

happened in destiny actually in destiny to where

39:04

what's his name the Titan? Oh Saint 14

39:07

There was this helm in destiny called the helm of

39:09

Saint 14 that you could get at the very beginning

39:11

And it was really cool because Saint 14 was a

39:13

famous Titan and then the helm of

39:15

Saint 14 was a really powerful exotic helmet you get

39:17

in the first game and that's all you really knew

39:20

About Saint 14 was he had the

39:22

ability to like I don't know his shield was really

39:24

good or something And

39:26

then over time he became like fleshed out more

39:28

and more and more until eventually He

39:30

like turns up in the game and you're like I

39:33

think you meet him or you're trying to find him

39:35

There's like a whole thing where they really like lean

39:37

into it and the lore becomes the text of the

39:39

game and to me I don't know

39:41

like I get why they did that like they needed

39:43

to add some characters But it was kind of cool,

39:45

and it was just a vague thing. I mean it

39:48

can work It's really it's up short. It's kind of

39:50

like writing dependent. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know going back

39:52

to see coding Yeah,

39:55

finally and seek seek out in two There's

40:00

like a tiny throwaway line has his

40:02

character named George Prime who you meet

40:04

and like you investigate his backstory with

40:06

the private sector of the like. I

40:08

heard he killed The Queen and the

40:10

entirety of Seek It and Five has

40:12

been around that one premise of that

40:14

entire like that one throw a lot

40:16

rising recently and then again does something

40:18

like that or it's like we're going

40:20

take this little thing that you might

40:22

have heard of out here or even

40:24

better, a better call Saul and Brianna

40:26

Breaking Bad has one throwaway line. In

40:28

the of us agree. Meet saw where

40:30

he's like I did Did Lolo send

40:32

you and Lolo is never explained did

40:35

not to send you their like neither

40:37

Macias and you like neither of them

40:39

every space and then they both big

40:41

A major factors in the show Better

40:43

call Saul South I think is it

40:45

can be cool when can have a

40:47

throwaway line or throw a piece of

40:49

Laura's turned into an actual plot. It's

40:51

really it's more about how dust the

40:53

writing is and how adapt a happy

40:55

like how company I'm in. It is

40:57

said the executions then that the concept

40:59

of turning subjects. And And Sex. Is

41:02

it has to be as good as. Better. Call Saul I mean

41:04

I had. I really like and everything will

41:06

be gone as well as easy. As easy

41:08

just like take a little thoroughly live and

41:10

then make him into one of the greatest

41:12

television shows ever devised. How hard could it

41:15

be? So I the i feel like my

41:17

go to example is also Star Wars and

41:19

it's like why this on Solas name have

41:21

an explanation I'm not know that qualifies as

41:24

more exactly it's it's more like answering a

41:26

question no one say. I I went. I know,

41:28

I don't know. It's like inventing more

41:30

first, something that didn't need. More

41:32

Omagh? Yeah, that's that's A and things.

41:35

Like a a third category of

41:37

laura that is. More. or less

41:39

it's kind of like over explaining that for

41:41

be ours how many koreans it's over explaining

41:43

things that don't need to be lane i

41:46

think i'm looking at a show like the

41:48

leftovers for some reason i'm thinking of that

41:50

because that's the show them how did it

41:52

kind of like adding lower to is a

41:54

has this really rich interesting history and backstory

41:56

and lawyers who it's world's but it doesn't

41:58

bother explaining a lot of It's not going

42:00

to explain to you, obviously the

42:02

core conceit of the show isn't explained, the

42:04

whole rapture isn't explained, but also it's not

42:06

going to explain to you why the cult,

42:10

what's the name of that? Oh, the

42:12

guilty remnant. The guilty remnant. It's not going to explain to

42:15

you why they do all the things they do or how

42:17

they came together or the meaning behind

42:19

each of their rituals. Yeah, it's just kind

42:21

of like this is what's going

42:23

on here and we're going to give you kind

42:26

of backstory without over explaining. So I think over

42:28

explaining is really a big problem in storytelling

42:30

in general and that is really

42:32

the problem that you guys are

42:34

kind of identifying there. Yeah, there

42:36

is a kind of a lorishness,

42:39

like a sort of implied backstory

42:41

to just symbolism and implication.

42:44

I mean Han Solo is a freaking

42:47

cool name and when you hear

42:49

Han Solo it's like, damn, his name

42:51

is Han Solo? You know,

42:53

it has that, like Luke Skywalker is the

42:55

same way. You're like, you know, there's no

42:57

story where it's like, oh, well, you know,

42:59

old, old Jeff Skywalker. One time

43:02

he walked on a tightrope and it was

43:04

so impressive that they called him Jeff Skywalker

43:06

and the name. That is the backstory though.

43:09

Right. And where, yeah, when they

43:12

then explain that with Han Solo, it does

43:14

feel like this unnecessary thing, but it's not

43:16

lore really because like there is

43:18

no explanation at all, but the symbol does

43:20

kind of conjure something in your mind. I

43:22

think a lot about our friend Matthew Burns'

43:24

joke about Dark Souls. I'm

43:26

going to mangle it, but it's something along the lines

43:28

of most fantasy RPGs. King Tiber

43:30

Septim was the fifth king of the eighth line. No,

43:32

no, no, no, no, no, no. Let

43:35

me do it. I'm totally wrong. No, what

43:37

he said was Dark Souls fans.

43:39

Oh, the lore in this game is

43:41

so evocative and mysterious. Dark Souls. This

43:44

guy is named Big Hat Logan because he has a big hat. His

43:47

name is Big Hat Logan because he wears a big

43:49

hat. And I think about all the

43:51

time of Big Hat Logan wears a big hat

43:53

because that's, you know, it is evocative. Like you

43:55

kind of, you're like, well, why does he wear

43:57

a big hat? Enter

44:00

a little things like that in those games.

44:02

That's the do kind of plus the world

44:05

out in this very. Light. Touch

44:07

like sensible way that leaves a lot of space

44:09

for you and then he I if if they

44:11

did them go and explain the how logan and

44:13

have a whole thing about know they did. That's

44:16

the joke it's like and that it's one of

44:18

the prompts in the game is like like during

44:20

in between the like loading screens you got like

44:22

these little prompts one of them as like this

44:24

guy was a big how logan because the out

44:27

of a hat that's the doubt in my as

44:29

actually won a sim It's that around me like

44:31

I'll buy a thorough and by that's almost a

44:33

joke of an explanation. they're just say explain to

44:35

in a more thorough. Well as it was

44:37

dispel, some of was cool about where. Was

44:40

like and he was from the legendary town

44:42

as big hats and his mother they were

44:44

him that low can cause he was loaded

44:46

the ground and it's like alleged we would

44:49

one round like. How much more room It and

44:51

I mean Dark Souls is full of that kind

44:53

of thing Rent is give her full of like

44:55

I think we're like the name of a character

44:57

or like a random guy. the to find who

44:59

has a slightly different move said and has a

45:01

different weapon and it's implied that that means he's

45:03

somebody but you don't really know who he is

45:05

and then it leaves lot of space for you

45:07

to fill in the blanks where you know in

45:09

other games they was. They would just not be

45:11

able to resist saying it in and and telling

45:13

you what's going on. Yes,

45:16

Well. I don't

45:18

know Lords good or bad have we

45:20

figured it out? We have more. A

45:22

I hope the if everybody listen l

45:24

two hundred two episodes are typically will

45:26

understand our lore. The. As good as

45:28

that, I serve to something, but it does

45:30

if we do. We didn't have using the

45:32

live I'm going on exactly as a whole

45:34

history lesson is Laura. Others inside jokes as

45:36

references as a kind of a connected universe

45:39

and make anything that's been going on for

45:41

the phone generate some sort of allure said

45:43

and I think we do have some kind

45:45

of a war. but hopefully we've gotten a

45:47

little bit to the bottom of what Laura's

45:49

and come up with a better understanding of

45:51

it's a sick a break and then come

45:53

back from one more thing. When

45:59

you listen upon. He really just

46:01

comes down to whether or not you

46:03

like the sound of everyone's voices. My

46:05

voice is one of the sounds use

46:08

your on the podcast Doctor Game Show

46:10

and this is the voice of cohost

46:12

and fearless leader Joe Firestone Time Kessler.

46:14

We. Play games to me by with

46:17

there's A and we play them with

46:19

colors over zoom We never spoken to

46:21

our lives so that is basically the

46:23

time said silly shell pretty chill. So

46:25

take it or leave of both. Cool. And

46:27

here's was. Some of the listeners have to

46:30

say it's. Funny, wholesome, and it never fails

46:32

to make me smile. I just started

46:34

listening and I'm already benjamin. I haven't

46:36

laughed that hard and inches. Sooner

46:39

you define Doctor Game Show

46:41

or Maximum fun.org. And.

46:43

We're back for one more thing at

46:46

Jason, you're deluded tier. One more thing.

46:48

So when it's you, go first. I

46:50

played a video game called A or

46:52

It in that Chronicle hundred they arouse.

46:54

This is a game that is a

46:56

spiritual successor to the Secret and series

46:58

which is a personal favorite of mine.

47:00

I'll chair Pg Serious from back in

47:02

the day and this game was created

47:04

by a bunch of the folks who

47:06

works on the seems, including Director yes

47:08

talk Emery Ama who passed away It's

47:10

a couple months ago. Service will be

47:12

his final release and it. Is designed

47:14

and it was kick started to feel like

47:16

and news he couldn't team and I completed

47:19

it. I played about forty forty two hours

47:21

forty four hours and the like that finishing

47:23

the game while you play the whole thing

47:25

every the whole thing. I have not recruited

47:28

all the characters in part because it's a

47:30

pain in the as the haven't played the

47:32

here you haven't used marijuana. I also guess

47:34

there's a fire in the version as a

47:36

game that I played of we had been

47:39

released but there's a bag that like prevail

47:41

I saw people talking about that prevents you

47:43

from recruiting. One of the cursor that I got

47:45

Alex erected. Other factors Ah, the aim is I

47:47

had viable really is what you're saying that. i

47:51

couldn't actually see the to anus but i

47:53

named the consensus it's a pain to recruit

47:55

i think they're lot of bugs in this

47:57

game like there's a cooking competition and it

47:59

seems be super bad because all the judges just keep

48:01

giving bad scores no matter what I pick and there's

48:03

nothing I can do about it. Maybe your food is

48:05

just trash and you don't know how to cook. This

48:07

game is very frustrating. I'm sorry we keep ribbing you.

48:09

I don't know. We'll stop. I'm

48:12

having trouble. I'm reconciling. I'm trying to

48:14

reconcile a lot of feelings about this

48:16

game because in many ways it

48:18

feels a lot like a brand new Seacote in-game and

48:20

it's kind of it's going to be what a lot

48:22

of Seacote fans would have wanted from a Seacote in-game.

48:25

Except it's really frustrating in a lot

48:27

of ways and it's missing kind of

48:29

one fundamental part of Seacote in which

48:32

is like an emotional connection to the

48:34

characters and character relationships that is just

48:36

completely MIA from this game. We

48:39

all played Seacote in-game. I

48:41

think you guys might agree with me but

48:43

the highlight of that game for me is

48:45

the relationship between the main character and Joey

48:47

and how that evolves over the course of

48:50

the game and seeing Joey's evolution and not

48:52

me and like their childhood. Yeah. Yeah and

48:54

then I mean the trio. Yeah the relationship

48:56

between the three of them and how that

48:58

changes over the other flashbacks and all that

49:00

stuff. Aiden has nothing like that. It has

49:03

like a shallow kind of like facsimile in

49:05

that it has two main characters who look

49:07

like Ryu and Joey. Yeah I played a

49:09

little in the main character that looks just like

49:11

Ryu. Except they don't have any

49:13

sort of relationship. They don't do anything that's interesting

49:15

in any way. They don't have any sort of

49:18

interesting conflict. It's just kind of like it sets

49:20

up some grand ideas at the beginning that just

49:22

kind of fizzle out. The

49:24

main character in this game has no personality other

49:26

than like wanting to help people and that just

49:29

doesn't change at all over the course of the

49:31

game. It's just like starts off wanting to help

49:33

people, ends the game wanting to help people. That's

49:35

a story. It's just it's missing something. It's missing

49:37

an emotional heart. It's got a lot of things

49:40

that I think are interesting like political

49:42

battles and armies and stuff like that.

49:45

It's got all of the sweet garden touches

49:47

like so many little references and feelings of

49:49

the sweet garden game from like big things

49:51

like they were good characters and the castle

49:53

and stuff to little things like the fact

49:56

that when you go to a shopkeeper the

49:58

shopkeeper will have like little quips. and

50:01

sometimes garbled English and true sweet-go-to-in

50:04

fashion. It has

50:07

a lot of frustrating mini-games, really,

50:09

really bad mini-games, especially after playing

50:11

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, which has

50:13

awesome mini-games. Mostly, mostly

50:16

mini-games. Or

50:18

at least mini-games that feel good to play for

50:20

the most part, as opposed to Aoden, which has

50:22

a lot of bad-feeling mini-games. And

50:24

yeah, I just found it really frustrating in

50:26

a lot of different ways. To

50:29

recruit all the characters, you have to

50:31

do some of these really frustrating, kind

50:33

of poorly explained, tedious mini-games and other

50:36

sorts of kind of TDM, which

50:38

I found really frustrating. And yeah,

50:41

I don't know. I was like, this

50:43

is kind of what I want from a new sweet-go-to-in

50:45

game in that it feels like this kind of what

50:47

a sweet-go-to-in 6 might look like, but it's just missing

50:49

so much of the heart that I really love from

50:51

those old games, which is especially

50:53

disappointing because so many of the people who

50:55

worked on those old games worked on this

50:58

one, including Yoshitaka Miriyama, the director. And

51:00

it's unfortunate that I find myself

51:03

so frustrated with his final game.

51:05

But yeah,

51:07

that's the short of it. I think

51:09

that the reason that I played 44 hours over

51:11

the course of a week and

51:15

finished the entire thing is because of

51:17

that nostalgia. And I think we'll talk about this

51:19

more in a couple of weeks when we talk

51:21

about this game a little bit more in depth

51:24

and how nostalgia can kind of convince you

51:26

to get into a game or what

51:28

the effect of nostalgia has on people. But

51:31

if not for that, I definitely would

51:33

not have played through this whole game

51:35

because in a lot of ways, it just feels

51:37

kind of like a, I don't know, a

51:40

C-budget JRPG with a lot of

51:42

generic anime tropes and

51:45

just kind of really frustrating mechanics and

51:47

stuff like that. So

51:49

yeah, it's hard to square this

51:51

game with like... And

51:54

then the flip side of that is that maybe

51:56

my expectations were too high because of my personal

51:58

love for this series. So I don't know. I'm

52:00

very curious to read the reviews and

52:03

see what other people think but I

52:05

think overall I was I was not

52:07

not exactly thrilled with this game Which

52:11

is too bad too bad that is too bad I have a

52:13

code for it and have played a little bit of it and

52:15

yeah We'll play more before we talk about it more on the

52:17

show just yeah You know, I don't

52:19

have your same attachment to say Odin. Yeah, we

52:21

got it too. So maybe yeah, I don't know

52:23

I'm curious. What if you love it Kirk? That'd

52:25

be funny We're like, it's really good.

52:27

What's wrong with you J So

52:31

maybe a real switch for that would be so

52:33

funny. I think that you and everyone to find out

52:35

in a few weeks All right I'll

52:37

go next my one more thing is a movie that I

52:39

watched over the weekend So I've been a friend

52:42

of mine and I have been watching all of the movies

52:44

nominated for the 1994 Academy Awards I

52:47

think I mentioned this before yeah You have been slowly working

52:49

through it because it's taken us like years because there's so

52:51

many movies and we only do it like once a We've

52:54

watched almost everything now. We most

52:56

recently watched one of the movies

52:58

we watched yesterday was Clear

53:00

and present danger pretty cool kind

53:02

of better than I remembered it being a

53:04

very cynical movie, but pretty good Not

53:07

really the like rah-rah patriotism that The

53:10

cover with the American flag would suggest but

53:13

anyways, that's what I'm gonna talk about My

53:15

one more thing is another 1994 movie that

53:17

I watched for the first time Neither

53:19

of us had seen it called heavenly creatures,

53:22

which is an awesome movie that I want

53:24

to just like Wholeheartedly recommend

53:26

everyone watch. So this is an

53:28

early Peter Jackson movie It was

53:30

made in New Zealand and

53:33

it's an adaptation of a true story from the

53:35

1950s of two young girls Who

53:39

became infatuated with and fell in love

53:41

with one another in a way that

53:43

made their families very? Unhappy

53:46

and made them both increasingly unstable both

53:48

through like the ways that their parents

53:50

tried to keep them apart and also

53:52

through what seems to be maybe some

53:54

sort of Like real delusional mental illness,

53:57

maybe even like psychotic tendencies from one

53:59

of them were like pretty troubled

54:01

young women. They had

54:03

this extremely intense friendship that kind of grew

54:05

over the course of maybe a year or

54:07

so in the early 1950s and eventually killed

54:12

one of the girls' mothers and then were

54:14

immediately caught for it and sent to prison

54:16

separately and like separated for the rest of

54:18

their lives. A condition of their release from

54:20

prison was you can never see one another

54:22

again. So this is based on a true

54:24

story and the journals of one of the

54:26

girls were found by the police

54:28

and like exist. They're like out there. So her

54:30

journals are kind of the basis for this movie.

54:33

And that sounds like an interesting enough

54:35

movie. The thing that makes this movie

54:38

great, at least to me, is that

54:40

Peter Jackson directed it. He made it

54:42

with the entire team, his DP, his

54:44

editor, his life and screenwriting partner Fran

54:47

Walsh, the Weta Workshop that he then

54:49

would use only a few years later

54:51

to make The Lord of the Rings.

54:53

So it has this like absolutely

54:55

wildly engaging camera that is like

54:57

flying around all over the place.

55:00

He's such a like exciting and

55:02

I at least think very entertaining

55:04

filmmaker. His director of photography is

55:06

like fantastic. Everything looks so cool. So it's

55:08

like a very fun movie to watch. Like

55:10

it is just movie people having fun making

55:12

movies. This is the first movie

55:14

he made after Dead Alive, which is his

55:17

super gore zombie movie. Have any of you

55:19

seen Dead Alive? Have you seen that movie?

55:21

No, I heard of this movie too. Both are

55:23

things I'd like to see them. I

55:25

think you would like both of them. Dead Alive

55:27

I saw a long time ago. It's one of

55:29

it's like a classic in the super gore horror.

55:32

Yep. Kind of sub genre. But

55:34

it's and it's early Peter Jackson, similar to

55:36

how Sam Raimi's early like Evil Dead movie.

55:38

Yeah, it's the same thing where it's like

55:40

a really talented filmmaker having a great time

55:42

making zombie movie that actually when you watch

55:44

it, you're like, holy crap, this is like

55:46

the most talent and like creativity I've ever

55:48

seen in a horror movie. It

55:50

really feels that way. This feels very similar. The

55:53

other cool thing about this movie is that its

55:55

debut performances for the two leads are

55:57

Kate Winslet and Melanie Lynskey.

56:00

Whoa who are the two leads Melanie Linsky

56:02

of course who we know from yellow jackets

56:04

and Kate Winslet We know from everything Melanie

56:07

Linsky was I think 17 when she made

56:09

this movie both of them were making their debut and

56:12

Both are amazing Melanie Linsky is like

56:14

absolutely incredible in this movie like she's

56:16

so so good And so these two

56:18

central performances are great They're so good

56:20

together and it's just everything about the

56:22

movie we were sitting there watching it

56:24

my friends I'm gonna be and I'm

56:26

just like I have not been bored

56:28

for a single Like

56:30

an hour into it and just loving it

56:33

because it just kept going in these wild

56:35

weird directions Anyways, heavenly creatures.

56:37

It's I think currently not streaming so

56:39

it's a little hard to find But

56:41

this is like a long-term recommendation just

56:43

something to put on your lists out

56:45

there if you like maybe some it'll

56:47

be on To be some day. Yeah, we

56:49

went to the movie store and just rented it from

56:52

the rental place That is still in business near me

56:54

movie madness Movie

56:56

store near you. Oh man, Portland's movie madness

56:58

is an institution. They're really awesome We had

57:00

to read it there and watched it on

57:03

blu-ray and man just what a hell

57:05

of a movie I just really if any of

57:07

that sounds cool. I recommend it so much. That's

57:09

heavenly creatures 1994

57:11

early Peter Jackson movie just totally kicks ass

57:14

great movie All right. So

57:16

last but not least Maddie tell us about your one

57:18

more thing. All right, so mine is

57:20

a video game called

57:22

tales of Canzera's out I Guess

57:25

look in the show notes if you want to know how to spell

57:27

this because you know tales of concern is

57:29

that how this game? Has a really

57:31

cool story but that's weird

57:33

to say about the Metroidvania, which is

57:36

what it has marketed itself as and

57:39

Perhaps to its detriment because I think the

57:41

Metroidvania part of the game is fine and

57:44

mostly playing this game I'm like, it's really hard

57:46

to make a Metroidvania. You know what I mean?

57:49

It's really hard to do That's what

57:51

I'm gathering And this

57:53

game is pretty linear so far about five hours

57:55

in by the time this episode comes out This

57:57

game will be out and I made maybe both

57:59

be and maybe I'll feel differently about it. I

58:02

don't know. But five hours in, I'm really into

58:04

the story. And I

58:06

think the gameplay is okay. It's

58:08

fine enough that I'll play enough, play through and

58:10

see what happens. And

58:12

it has a pretty cool backstory in terms

58:14

of who made it. So it's made by

58:16

Abu Bakr Saleem, his studio that

58:18

he founded. And I say his name

58:21

because he's

58:23

an actor originally. He

58:25

played Bayek in Assassin's Creed Origins.

58:27

And really liked video games and

58:30

just wanted to make a video

58:32

game, which is a highly adorable

58:34

backstory. He had a great speech at the

58:36

Game Awards in December. He did, yeah. So people

58:38

might remember him from that. And

58:41

the other reason why he made this game is

58:43

because his dad died and

58:45

he really liked the idea of

58:47

negotiating grief through kind of revisiting

58:51

old places that you've seen before

58:53

and in Metropania is sort of

58:55

about that. And so

58:57

that's also what this lead character,

58:59

Zao, who's a shaman in

59:02

this sort of like Afrofuturist

59:04

world is going through.

59:07

He's trying to bring back his father from the

59:09

dead. I'm remembering this game now. This is at

59:11

an EA showcase. I'm looking at it. And I

59:13

totally remember this now. I just didn't remember the

59:15

name. It's very cool looking

59:18

and sounding. The music is really

59:20

cool. It has a lot of like

59:22

Bantu mythological figures in it. I love

59:25

a game where I can learn a

59:27

lot about something and I like that.

59:29

Yeah, like Prince of Persia. But

59:31

it also is like clearly a game made by

59:33

a small team. So it's rough around the edges.

59:36

I've certainly run into some things. I mean, I'm

59:38

playing a pre-release code, I should say. So some

59:40

of these edges might have been sanded off. But

59:42

I've run into a couple points where I'm like,

59:45

I really can't tell where to go. And I'm just

59:47

like wandering around a lot. And then I'm like, okay, got

59:49

it. Figured it out. That sort of thing. So

59:53

I'm really digging the writing and the story.

59:55

Everything's fully voice acted just like

59:58

Prince of Persia was. I'm not sure. sure

1:00:00

how this game is going to do. I think

1:00:02

it's a tough sell to have a lot of

1:00:04

characters talking in a Metroidvania. And,

1:00:07

uh, so some people might not like that in and

1:00:10

of itself to just be like, you need to kind

1:00:12

of keep track of who these characters are. A lot

1:00:14

of them have names that aren't

1:00:16

in American English. And like that, that got

1:00:18

me a stumbling block for some people, even

1:00:21

if it isn't for me, and

1:00:23

I understand that that for, it's like, especially if you're

1:00:25

like, I just want a cool Metroidvania where I'm just

1:00:27

going to collect a bunch of shit. That's really not

1:00:29

the point of the game. It's very much a game

1:00:32

about grief and this character story that they're going

1:00:34

through. So kind of a tough sell, but

1:00:36

I think it's interesting. And I also think

1:00:38

it's cool to make a game about that

1:00:40

topic, especially a game about revisiting old areas.

1:00:42

So I'm going to keep playing it. And

1:00:45

something else I thought that was interesting about it

1:00:47

is that they give you, um, the dash and

1:00:49

the double jump just right off the bat and

1:00:51

you have them the whole time. I

1:00:53

know. Right. I was like, are they going to

1:00:55

take this away? Like I was really scared.

1:00:58

I was like, I can do this. I

1:01:00

can double jump and dash immediately. I'm loving

1:01:02

it. Those two mechanics feel really good. I

1:01:04

really liked how the double jump and dash

1:01:06

feel to use. Uh,

1:01:08

but they don't take them away.

1:01:10

And I love that. I love that for me.

1:01:12

So that's like a pretty specific artistic choice that

1:01:14

the game makes is being like, we're going to

1:01:16

give you some other kinds of abilities. And,

1:01:19

uh, so enjoy that. Um, so it's called

1:01:22

just look at it in the show notes, but

1:01:24

it's called tales of Kinsara's. And

1:01:27

it kind of is a

1:01:29

Metroidvania tales of Kinsara, colon. Yeah.

1:01:33

I feel like they should have gone with one or the other, like

1:01:35

just call it sound, that's the main character's name. There

1:01:39

is the name of the fictional place that

1:01:41

he's exploring. I don't know. They

1:01:43

could have shortened it. That

1:01:45

name is going to hurt them. When they were going to

1:01:47

make an episode about names, we might have to do that.

1:01:52

We have a lot of name. We really,

1:01:54

I think that game developers should run their

1:01:57

names by us and we should start a

1:01:59

consultancy where we like. over-deny game. What pivots

1:02:01

to that? Or is it just like, is it

1:02:03

hard to say? Is it easy to remember? How

1:02:06

do you spell it? Game names. It should be

1:02:08

called the name game. The name

1:02:10

game. That's the name of our consultancy. Yeah, a

1:02:12

lot of former journalists go on to do mock

1:02:14

reviews and stuff. I have no interest in that.

1:02:16

What I want to do, I want to review.

1:02:18

No interest at all. I don't have time for

1:02:20

all that. I'm not going to play your game.

1:02:22

No. Read me the name and I'll tell you a better

1:02:24

one. Yeah. Or

1:02:27

tell me a little bit about the plot and then I'll tell you

1:02:29

what the right name is. Then you can make the check

1:02:31

out to cash is $10,000 for game suggestions. It

1:02:34

sounds like a winning business strategy.

1:02:36

Yeah, it's perfect. Perfect. We did

1:02:38

it. We did it. Alright,

1:02:41

well that is one more episode of Triple Click in the

1:02:43

bag. Great names. Thank you so much for all of you

1:02:45

for listening. We really thought of it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah,

1:02:47

we really did that. We came up with that. I would

1:02:49

trust them to think of other names for me. I think

1:02:51

so. They came up with a name like Triple

1:02:54

Click. It's true. Yeah, whoever came up with that. Alright. This

1:02:57

was a lot of fun. I will see the two of you

1:02:59

next week. See you next week. Bye.

1:03:04

Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie

1:03:06

Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and

1:03:08

mix the show and also wrote our theme

1:03:10

music. Our show art is by Tom Gije.

1:03:13

Some of the games and products we talked about on this

1:03:15

episode may have been sent to us for free for review

1:03:17

consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in

1:03:19

the show notes. Triple Click is

1:03:21

a proud member of the Maximum Fun

1:03:23

Podcast Network and if you like our

1:03:25

show, we hope you'll consider supporting us

1:03:27

by becoming a member at maximumfun.org/join. Find

1:03:30

us on Twitter at TripleClickPods, send emails

1:03:32

at tripleclick at maximumfun.org, and send a

1:03:34

link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for

1:03:36

listening. See you next time! Bye!

1:04:02

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned

1:04:04

network of artist-owned shows

1:04:06

supported directly by you.