0:00

do i was malcolm earlier

0:02

because this is new stewart brand biography

0:04

and we were basically talking about how after

0:07

stanford he liked wanted to become an

0:09

army ranger and like went into the military but

0:12

then like figured out was the

0:14

and so then , do that

0:17

and then he wanted to be green beret but then that

0:19

didn't work out either and so nice like me

0:21

wait wait wait only as like why i have to do

0:23

a second pushup fuck this this

0:26

just like i'm going to be in the military and they were like no

0:28

dude go okay all right well run through

0:31

these tires you like this is hard i mean to

0:33

be green beret instead i see me to

0:35

south america for that

0:37

the i never like you know you need actually do the training

0:39

to be green beret easily available at

0:41

doesn't work either and so then his like

0:43

sister's husband was like

0:45

higher up in the military and so then

0:47

they just like gave him some cushy jobs like ride

0:50

out his army time because like they didn't actually trust

0:52

me do any that he probably would like of it off

0:54

that's like my dream job my

0:56

dream careers i do basically

0:58

the same amount of work that i'm doing now

1:00

just say next nothing i

1:03

get a ten percent discount on

1:05

like and he breakfast sandwich at denny's

1:08

and people like to thank me for my service

1:10

and that that's why won't you wanna be in you

1:12

want to be and like the hundred and first powerpoint

1:14

division yeah yeah my my my mls

1:16

has sat model as

1:19

you want to be easy you want to be just like making

1:22

a powerpoint about your your list you'll

1:24

be making a powerpoint about how

1:27

the ah i i

1:29

made i made the database the stores

1:31

information what all of the little patches say

1:33

and i get to like go and like look through

1:36

the stocks of patches to make sure

1:38

that they say would listen to that i was gonna say

1:40

you can make a powerpoint on like how

1:42

to handle information on you as be

1:44

teased for british soldiers

1:46

stationed in germany really specific

1:48

like that specific know i think it will be better

1:51

if you just into went through boxes

1:53

upon boxes of hunt boxes of inscrutable

1:56

patches and just had a little clipboard ticket

1:58

him

2:11

hi everybody it is of course

2:14

cs is that podcast us new right

2:16

now it's the free episode the

2:18

free one you'll you'll notice that are only

2:21

one that gone three only

2:23

, of only one annoying

2:26

only one crew style

2:28

voice came in here because

2:31

it is a rare much depleted yeah

2:33

oh it's we're running on fumes here

2:35

at he of acres and i mean to let

2:37

you know why because milo was on a much deserved

2:39

vacation and

2:42

i the locked

2:44

myself in new to our office

2:47

yeah the thing is the thing is

2:49

you've been trying few solely to get

2:51

me into wine for a while you've been

2:53

like sending the links to the wine society

2:55

website if and telling me about different vintages

2:58

now you fucking cask

3:00

of amontillado yourself and

3:03

that's right i have i have

3:05

locked myself into our office because

3:07

for some reason my teeth of we i have the

3:09

joke he is that , everyone

3:12

else a locked in here with you as

3:14

spot spot over a sense of a second

3:16

more real sense you and lox it matter

3:18

with shit this absolutely

3:21

to you and your to you cut out by just

3:23

outside of and so

3:26

hussein will be died joining us

3:28

probably for the last third of this

3:30

as he gets here and time because he is

3:32

coming from dartford to let me out

3:36

we're we're the most com person

3:39

professional the

3:41

podcast is in the contrary i think as

3:43

and that's that's a problem is that you're

3:46

not wrong i'd

3:50

like to see the remaining hex do this or

3:53

i think i think as they put their mind

3:55

to the remaining x could all lock

3:57

themselves and different offices

4:00

and so of course it is myself

4:02

riley i've joined a bullied by

4:04

a by alice ah and

4:07

of we also have delighted

4:09

to be making eyes making i think moore's

4:11

appearance on the show or it

4:13

is earning champion it is tech won't save

4:15

us is paris marks paris

4:18

as ago and hello thanks so much for have

4:20

me back as i said free episode again

4:22

i absolutely love it you ,

4:24

have been on the show and know lows i think

4:26

he might be something like a sort of new land

4:28

speed record for how quickly anyone's com

4:31

that showed soup sorry i just keep coming

4:33

back and back and back and it seems like the time

4:35

i keep shortening i think of discovery gonna house

4:37

cohosts if if right thing

4:40

they they turned on the big machine at cern

4:42

makes power smoke so stupid as

4:44

as well as if you're a bottomless

4:46

know you'll know also know that the

4:49

most recent bottom an episode to be out us

4:51

dead beckner was too busy doing rock star south

4:54

odd to co host a us podcast

4:56

is old pal riley so ah

4:58

paris filled in for that as well so it's just piles

5:00

harris and the margins on all the

5:02

podcast he says yes right as

5:05

i so out look out for paris on masters of

5:07

our domain look out for

5:09

modular of young coach james bond

5:11

as soon as he says he says this is on

5:13

all of the we

5:15

, to watch as james bond movie outta here

5:18

trying to sell resolved

5:20

long be long the needs of that's okay

5:22

good assess okay good played the goldeneye

5:24

game when i was kid is perfect

5:27

ah yeah it says you tried to speed runs facility

5:29

is he really did podcast less than two minutes and it's

5:31

mostly you going we

5:34

did try and make an episode out of the video

5:36

game and let me tell you despite our best

5:38

efforts a video game is not very conducive

5:41

to a movie or of you podcast that's

5:43

fair either to use their sydney's as i

5:45

got come on do something just as a start menu

5:48

cell lung or

5:50

if you're a british listener and you're listening to this

5:52

number one thank you ever to the

5:55

you might be wondering banking them they haven't played us any

5:57

money oh yeah well it's a well for

5:59

the have you they pay money thank you for the other is

6:02

what , you doing i'm yeah you

6:04

did it layabouts i'm yeah

6:08

my opinion look

6:10

into the iran podcast no iran no no

6:12

so are you might be wondering oh boy

6:15

i can't wait until these are my my

6:17

favorite you know a goof ups a

6:19

talk about a further a insane

6:21

developments in the there

6:23

is a tory leadership contest

6:26

absolutely not not going to the yeah cause

6:28

we did something smart right the only thing

6:30

we've ever done that smart and this is also

6:32

why parents osiris when we don't know about

6:34

something which is all of the time we go and

6:36

find someone who does and we say would

6:39

you like to listen to two to five

6:41

who sing moron for an hour then say

6:43

the correct thing about this thread that

6:46

and very often surprisingly

6:49

very smart people say yes to that also

6:51

and so we got another one the

6:53

correct that we we

6:56

we got we are so button cartilage back

6:58

on to talk about the tory leadership

7:00

election there's gonna be on at

7:03

a further point in time when we will know

7:05

more and be able to say more things

7:07

that we think sound smart that's absolutely

7:09

revis for a second that you were going to expect me

7:11

to say the smart thing for the stories and or cfl yeah

7:13

yeah well i think what

7:15

we can do is say there

7:17

is one correct take about a conservative

7:20

leadership election the

7:22

you know we all share it and

7:25

paris is gonna deliver that say us

7:28

, now shed at the the

7:32

pretty soon akbar the when why i'm

7:34

afraid to correct answer was i have any

7:36

more don't is don't of that's

7:39

alright as of his are evil

7:41

border one going to get iran i

7:43

know she's already dropped out a lot of

7:45

the depends which evil border what i know the one you're

7:47

talking about the role evil board ones for

7:50

your tell ya that he beheld see since dropped out

7:52

a couple of the other evil border ones have since

7:55

dropped out but there's like all the rest

7:57

of them are all evil border one so

8:00

i'm a recording and it's between

8:02

racy soon act and penny more than and

8:04

although he said we weren't going to talk about this i will

8:07

say this i don't know that the united

8:09

kingdom is prepared to have a hot prime minister

8:11

either emotionally psychologically economically

8:15

and , as he knows as any more than does when

8:17

that puts me in a very difficult position i'm just

8:19

gonna have to stop talking about politics is

8:22

everything i say will be unacceptable

8:25

unacceptable i said rishi sooner because i don't

8:27

know the rest as high as you

8:30

know why has he got the he's a you've got name

8:32

recognition among canadians he was

8:34

superman in that in that little bbc

8:37

thing well yeah well i

8:40

well i to sort of move onto a couple of up bits

8:42

of front matter right before we get into

8:44

our main subject today which is of course of

8:46

the gigantic trove of into of internal

8:48

documents and emails that have been leaked from over

8:51

ah which paris you have written in excellence

8:54

right up on in a tribute so

8:57

have you do do do check that

8:59

out will link it in the description i'm already

9:01

has the portuguese and italian

9:04

translations german come in next week so

9:06

you know if you speak other languages their ego

9:08

per se made it into a reason for this

9:10

english language vodka would ,

9:13

read it and portuguese italian or german and

9:16

then by then time you're hearing this your

9:18

com the to

9:20

, the story about the company over into german

9:22

that i'm glad they found a way to myself what i

9:25

don't want to speak german has been able company right

9:29

to bit the number one and

9:31

safe a hacker cities de de de de de

9:33

that the dwp however

9:36

we're work and pensions or this is sort of apropos of

9:38

you mentioning a racy soon as being dressed

9:40

up as superman the has decided

9:43

that in order to cut costs

9:45

and bizarrely improve fairness they

9:48

are going to be decision and like

9:50

outcomes for who gets benefits

9:52

are using an ai system now

9:55

ah with slugging we're plugging benefits

9:57

syncs minted dolly many

10:00

the seeing what am i fucked up little

10:02

forms that generates for a said it's write

10:04

a letter a lady in misery

10:07

heads sorry for a how like now

10:09

that's okay it's great how like different com countries

10:11

keep like trying the whole ai welfare thing

10:14

and like every single time single

10:16

it like basically causes people

10:18

to kill themselves and cuts off people's benefits

10:21

when they really need them and then other countries are

10:23

like hey look ai this works really great

10:25

day with the in person and britain the way or benefit

10:27

system works that kind of soon as more of a benefit

10:29

them a hazards am i under to

10:32

what extent this is useful

10:34

in the sensors and save the date of if he time

10:37

or money or useful in the sense of

10:39

it allows the dwp to appeal to

10:41

a greater computer that has said no

10:43

and therefore please don't cry in my office what

10:46

it what specifically aimed for his at

10:48

detecting fraud that using

10:50

patterns that indicate fraudulent

10:52

behavior benefit benefit fraud is

10:55

minutes idol and it's it minutes

10:58

you were both an absolute homes are also in relative

11:00

terms compared said you know any number

11:02

of other kinds of world's most notably wage

11:05

theft the the good news is

11:07

that you know this will not work oh yeah

11:09

i need to thing is it just fully will not work at

11:11

late with with the dwp what this

11:13

is essentially going to do is it

11:16

it's like a it's it's

11:18

like a ah a kind of i think

11:20

of a seen it is less than say no faster

11:22

like it's going to put some people whose job it is

11:24

to say no to people out of work basically

11:27

it's the only ended it's good and then and then

11:29

they can apply for benefits and gets on down by the

11:31

computers replace edit

11:33

any don't even have someone to turn to you know it's

11:35

just or the computer made the decision it'll

11:39

add add omen i always think is is really sort

11:41

of notable about this in the sort of the point that i want to drag

11:43

out of it is that the what the deal with he

11:45

spokesman said as we do not use artificial

11:47

intelligence to make decisions on how universal

11:49

credit claims you progress where

11:52

this is just about identifying fraud

11:54

but the problem is photo store

11:56

exactly yeah exactly and he

11:58

but it because it's so paid ineffective

12:01

they reject multiple freedom of information requests

12:03

for like the rehearsal and very reasonable

12:06

say okay how's this going to work there

12:08

like no sorry we can't tell you otherwise people

12:10

will use what we know to commit fraud because

12:14

it's it's just this like i mean it

12:16

as he it's it's just this is one

12:18

place writing the the national

12:20

security state in the welfare state

12:22

have really become the same state

12:25

so yeah yep of and they say it

12:27

is right that we keep up with fraud in today's digital

12:29

age they said from two thousand six so

12:32

we can prevent this hacked into terror those who

12:34

try to cheat the system and more importantly improve

12:36

our supporters a you and claimants that's the other

12:38

have rights too they always say whatever ai

12:40

is being introduced into a system to make it work

12:43

worse they are there are two claims

12:45

that are usually made first

12:47

claim is this is to identify

12:50

ah unusual cases miss

12:52

nancy's yeah it is this is what did if

12:54

i miss you whereas people

12:56

will always be making important decision of

12:58

course never addresses the fact that identified

13:01

as miss used to just end up basically

13:04

been getting someone who's very desperate for the last

13:06

twenty pounds into a possible fraud

13:08

bucket and then it's very deep then

13:10

who's gonna be like whose job is it to review

13:12

that possible fraud bucket really quickly to

13:14

take mismatches out of it we

13:16

don't know and secondly talking

13:19

about this idea of but also

13:21

this is going to let us free up resources to improve

13:23

our support for genuine claimants another lie

13:25

that never ever actually is what happens it'll

13:27

only ever is involved in reducing the amount

13:30

of people working there interest in the quality of sort of guy

13:32

that gets put out yeah the the amounts

13:34

of benefit fraud is as we've said so small

13:36

that you know even if it ceased

13:38

to exist tomorrow even if people never

13:40

federal benefits of the amount

13:43

of like access benefit you

13:45

would get off of that that you could if

13:47

if you wanted to give to other people

13:49

would be vanishingly small

13:51

in absolutely either savings generally

13:53

aren't worth you know putting people through the hell

13:56

of of having you do this you're putting these systems

13:58

in like what it brings to mind me is

14:01

australia went through a scandal a few years ago

14:03

because there

14:04

the

14:05

the camera the name of their a center late

14:07

and air like yeah they're like welfare

14:09

system did something

14:11

quite similar you know brought in this ai system

14:13

that was supposed to like review these applications

14:15

and look at the amount of benefits that

14:17

people had compared against like their reported

14:19

income and then see if they actually owed

14:22

stuff back to the welfare

14:24

agency and what did they

14:26

never ended up doing was like sending out of

14:28

these basically fake

14:31

the favorite like miscalculated benefit

14:34

claims or whatnot are or benefit like

14:37

am in voices are that p y

14:39

to pay back

14:40

the and you know it was all load of bullshit

14:42

created a ton of anxiety

14:45

for v boy copy law firm benefits that

14:47

he that they needed it caused people to

14:49

commit suicide and the government ended

14:51

up having to pay billions of dollars in compensation for

14:53

it and , these systems do not

14:56

work in the way that as you're describing

14:58

you know they get promoted and they just really

15:00

hurt the people who can least of all be

15:02

hurt in this way one which again

15:04

britain benefit wrong wrong than

15:07

hazards yeah yeah of the

15:09

all of a million more than britain unfortunately

15:11

and now for a jarring change

15:13

of tone for our other alternatives

15:16

either alternatives had alternatives either in there in the middle that those

15:18

and selling scandals because they accidentally got the wrong

15:20

ai in and said them artificial intelligence

15:22

than australian intelligence but a

15:25

guy or sell a bit by the wayside use

15:27

of the sort of overbearing grimness

15:29

yeah well i'd say i'll say one thing

15:31

i'm certain that that that that

15:33

events you describe paris won't happen in britain

15:35

because or compensation would never be

15:37

paid in britain he's

15:40

ready to honeybee has agreed to employ a single

15:42

australian man finds

15:45

benefit from this yeah that that

15:47

that's a that's look the you already

15:49

live in britain he wasn't working

15:51

anyway and we'd rather have

15:53

him it's like poacher turn gamekeeper we'd rather

15:55

have him finding the fraudsters either

15:59

and so

16:02

i wanna talk about one one other thing before

16:04

we get for main comment a little fun thing which

16:07

earlier so boy it

16:10

is is the king is bass i

16:12

don't miss the incitement

16:14

to riot i don't miss the

16:16

sort of like incitements racial hatred

16:19

don't miss at the like

16:22

the violence the visits me the homophobia

16:24

the races in the transfer of however

16:27

i do miss some of donald trump's

16:29

tweets and we ss a

16:31

less sick of the form on his like

16:33

steak twist which it's funny

16:36

that he has he has truth social

16:38

a social network that is just i want

16:40

the followed donald trump on twitter and

16:42

no one else to be fair that was

16:45

twitter for a while that's true

16:47

that's true and i don't

16:49

that like emails anymore and he has his

16:51

little truth specimens and specimens can i

16:53

ask you something as do you know what the

16:55

read tweet function on truth social

16:57

is called don't look you have to guess

17:00

retrace his son

17:03

passive that was that heavily read truths post

17:06

i quote terrorists that with our

17:08

may i assist us

17:11

as a good because because

17:13

our favor of over space boy

17:15

on musk as in the news again and

17:17

donald trump more than anything just

17:20

kind of a cassie bet she loves to comment on

17:22

people in the news insultingly ak

17:24

we have that uncommon to us

17:26

as as as way better at it

17:28

than we have a say so and so he enjoyed

17:31

by have i have the history of this essentially

17:34

which is that i trump has been being

17:36

basically has been relentlessly outing

17:39

you on mosque in the way that only

17:41

a regular guy from queens

17:43

could i'm going at it as and

17:45

i'm good with her does sort of i'd say

17:47

bring his ability to be

17:49

a dick head to bear on a reddit

17:51

and bigger guys it regularly

17:54

outs yeah i would what's happened is elon

17:56

musk has a very much or

17:58

brought a reddit mean i a

18:00

page six gossip site and

18:02

, all started testing beautiful

18:06

senses is this all started because

18:08

when mosque who's increasingly

18:10

like who's increasingly thing has

18:12

just been that he's kind of

18:14

an online contrary and divorced conservative

18:17

and so did the alternate version of that

18:19

which is indoors rhonda santas

18:21

man whose main constituency three

18:24

thousand and roller backpack guys and people

18:27

who'd want to attend to brooks brothers riot

18:29

but then couldn't do it because they're asthma the

18:32

basically with the i endorse rhonda santos

18:34

because he's epic in his owning a lives in a position

18:36

of government in his vaccines get sick whatever

18:40

and , because elon musk is it is he loves

18:42

twitter and rhonda santas loves twitter

18:44

i just basically governs how twitter tells

18:46

into government government

18:48

like a sort of a lives of tix oxide

18:50

kind of gov yeah absolutely not i mean that in

18:53

the sense of entire i six has

18:55

like an inside women in his office kind

18:57

of lenses exile governments and so

18:59

trump has basically been assuming about mosque

19:01

for up months now apparently

19:03

now has he has

19:05

he slides consume like seventy

19:08

percent of that mans sort of sanity

19:11

and it's a it's perfect for him that's

19:14

why think that's why yo posers recognize

19:16

that's the soto yeah basically

19:19

a source this from rolling stone a source

19:21

close to who spoke to trump about must pseudo

19:23

endorsement of dissenters recalled trump

19:25

saying what an idiot and in called him a

19:27

bullshit artist and had he didn't know you

19:29

talking about then at a rally

19:32

he said ilan you on is not

19:34

gonna buy twitter he's got himself a mess

19:36

he said to me he said the other day oh i've never

19:38

voted republican and i said i didn't know

19:40

that's because you know what folks he told me he

19:43

voted for me right

19:46

now the other cities a

19:50

, rosalind still

19:54

size since it's like

19:57

love blood and like own

19:59

jazz db was being led

20:01

answer as you say i paid six gossip

20:03

columns says and imperfect

20:06

yeah offense or immense that led us

20:08

to like the as opposed

20:10

i was phrase if you pilot was

20:13

a truth that is like up there with the

20:15

great and carter truth that's up

20:17

it's up there with my opinion the coca

20:19

cola company i'm not very happy me

20:21

don't care of you like nasr as far as

20:25

all your dad gives good gives good it's called

20:27

seems all of that all the use of it's

20:29

not the truth that we all have and remember so

20:32

well on up for up

20:34

we missed oh another great from truth

20:36

which was these when elizabeth warren

20:38

had to do the apology video for falsely claiming

20:40

be nice american have

20:44

you said weird as far that videos when

20:46

she tells her husband says thank you for being

20:48

here it's his how season post

20:50

a pic exactly

20:54

in so we are and then the problem was

20:56

like the most of the time when he

20:58

was actually governing and for like

21:00

when he was trying to you know

21:02

stay in stay illegally who are the

21:04

result of the election the swamp gazza

21:06

mean i wasn't posting that kind of classic

21:09

messy bit said he was just posting things

21:11

like hey you guys go and overthrow

21:13

democracy now wink now wink isn't

21:15

very funny now that and now

21:17

now he's nose out of power he's

21:20

and what he has posted as a photo

21:23

of himself with eve on in

21:25

the oval office which looks like i can't

21:27

even tell of it's photoshop that looks like a hostage

21:29

taking he has the same

21:31

stand he that we have in our asked as

21:33

yesterday i was in northern colorado there's

21:36

another photo that he posts with it of jack dorsey

21:38

and it's like he looks like he's in the exact

21:41

same position but as you're saying

21:43

as if like jack dorsey into your mosque have been

21:45

like separately photo shopped into this them would

21:47

come mark on the floor and like us

21:49

films us but as you seem like take

21:52

corey lewandowski was just like they're covered in

21:54

tennis balls ready to hang onto

21:56

a computer says yes sir

21:58

this sir this truth here i'm going to readers

22:01

who from real don't trump when

22:03

elon musk came to the white house asking me

22:05

for health and on has many subsidized

22:07

projects whether it's electric cars

22:09

the don't drive long enough driverless

22:12

cars that crash or rocket ships

22:14

to know where perfect trump subsequent

22:17

cause close s without wit subsidies

22:19

he'd be worthless where's

22:21

the line the actually i am

22:24

telling me how he was a big trump fan

22:26

and republican i could have said

22:28

drop to your knees and beg

22:30

and he is on it's surface

22:33

know the thing is there's a part to to that

22:35

truth which says now you on should

22:37

focus and getting himself out of the twitter mess because

22:39

he get oh forty four billion for something it's practically

22:42

worthless worthless also a lot

22:44

of competition for electric cars

22:48

i mean sustained and then you know the is

22:50

a loans only responses is just to be

22:52

like are is you know the poster poster

22:54

meme of chuck norris is like we mile

22:57

here's a guy who is going

23:00

to get us who's using his using

23:02

his his not for good necessarily but certainly

23:04

for chaos as he's a soda whoever

23:07

sample sale he wins yeah that's right and

23:10

of course but musique about this is some point more fully

23:12

in a few to time to the thing that that the

23:14

donald is referencing here is that he

23:17

long as being served rakes over

23:19

the coals he put his hand and twitter sort of bear

23:21

trap there's now in the delaware cause

23:24

of chancery trying to argue that actually he was

23:26

just being ethic and maiming and he shouldn't have done

23:28

twitter and the funniest

23:30

possible outcomes this slim chance but

23:32

it is possible is that he

23:35

ends up be like getting a large

23:37

judgment against him that he can't pay and

23:39

twitter ends up owning a part owning

23:41

tesla which is i think the world that

23:43

we all want to live here can

23:45

, imagine this and this is a tesla

23:48

some has more nazis on i

23:52

have it lay is it's while though because

23:54

that truth as well like

23:56

there's been kind of a back and forth to write

23:58

like they've kind of like heading back and for the one another

24:01

and the truth came after you must post

24:03

that trump should hang up his hat and say

24:05

oh into the sunset because he's like endorsing

24:08

descent is now and saying like trump is too old

24:10

and so i'd that was like i guess you know

24:12

the final straw for trump and that is like

24:14

what is true the was in

24:16

response to that really like

24:18

you know

24:19

the man was a downed elon musk as well

24:21

as they are extremists seventy something

24:24

year old man oh that's that's an awesome

24:26

thing right there these are two guys were

24:28

you know that they have powerful followings

24:30

because like people who get to

24:32

into them regularly bankrupt themselves

24:35

an insane financial schemes you

24:37

know like it's too so it's gonna be ultimately

24:39

like the war of people who lost

24:41

everything on on test lovers as the

24:43

blue lost everything on dinars there

24:46

was a story about

24:49

sir from the from the six

24:51

coming that how his like

24:53

weird coterie of advisors slip

24:55

through the surf from handlers

24:58

his stuff i haven't had

25:00

a long meeting hours for meeting with each

25:03

other and the guy from

25:05

overstock.com was

25:07

that he kept eating meatballs the

25:09

whole time i'm telling try to

25:11

order the military to seize the machine

25:14

where do all these random

25:16

people come? like, my

25:19

pillow guy the overstock guy, like

25:21

it's some kind of likes of one

25:23

talks in this like sort of the

25:26

small business cycle, the

25:29

phrase that that passeth alone

25:32

trump's chief of stuff used to describe

25:34

this guy lives in my head run free

25:36

which was he was non-stop housing,

25:39

meatballs and presumably

25:41

like if you're non-stop housing meatballs

25:44

that means by the time you're giving

25:46

your idea of what to say or what

25:48

of at that trump said like you have sent

25:50

a low said your gas cel full of meatball

25:52

years talk you're talking through a meatball

25:55

there's a media in there as you

25:57

know me but we'll let you guys have a national

25:59

guards the use devoting honestly don't have

26:01

the more the more i learn about the circumstances

26:03

january six the more i feel like what

26:06

has happened to america as the beginning

26:08

of a final destination movie like it was

26:10

also appropriate like kind

26:12

of should have had an area and it's

26:14

, a it's an incredible moment

26:16

in american has lately it's one which and

26:19

it's only getting worse but it's it's it's

26:21

like they cheated death they avoided

26:23

the sort of of strange

26:26

cougars it was planned by people who are slightly

26:28

too stupid to do it which is because they

26:30

were talking for mouthful for i'd

26:32

so what's gonna happen now that america's gonna like

26:35

go to an amusement park or go to the gym

26:37

or whatever and get files and place to go

26:40

to their as their boring gov name is name rise

26:42

apartment i

26:45

do wonder what it does so like the republican

26:48

movement now because they've all been like embracing

26:50

you are most recently cause he has been like you

26:52

know him wanting to get to know jordan peterson

26:55

and like repeating their bullshit on like

26:57

trans people and all this kind of stuff

26:59

and it's like

27:00

the

27:01

you know now if the same people

27:03

who we're like embracing

27:06

mosque and now they also love donald

27:08

trump and now they're in a feud what does that mean

27:10

for them because the thing about

27:12

your muscles voting republican that really kick

27:14

that off with him voting for that one

27:17

in in texas i can't remember her name now

27:20

and she's like you know anti abortion anti gun

27:22

control pro trump like questioned

27:24

whether the election was i'm

27:27

you know a a solar whether

27:29

or not we won the election essentially yeah

27:31

basically and my sort of conclusion

27:34

here is donald trump has never lost

27:36

a page six gossip column fight

27:38

in his really

27:40

that's fair but the thing is like

27:43

what i noticed after he voted for

27:45

that that woman republican is

27:47

that ever since then see has been like

27:50

citing you a mosque all the time she's always

27:52

in his replies like say and like jag

27:54

grady on or blah blah whatever

27:57

like very much using him to

27:59

the

28:00

legitimize herself as like a new republican

28:03

congress person and so now

28:05

if like you know the person who see kind

28:07

of really owes really leading to the allegiance

28:10

to donald trump is feuding with the

28:12

person who like she's been building her reputation

28:14

on because she got the your must vote like

28:16

are now like guess what does that mean her

28:18

for them right now he's he's gonna

28:20

have to like go back to his real

28:23

sort of eighties dirty tricks things

28:26

to defeat ilan you know there's this guy

28:28

you're gonna get phone calls from john barren in the middle

28:30

of the night that how performed

28:33

owed from fit at his office

28:35

got you this it's this it's it's you know how when you turn

28:37

one hundred here the queen phones you that

28:40

if you turn a hundred and euro

28:42

registered yes you turn one hundred and

28:44

you're like a registered republican voter

28:46

spew should get the midnight call from john

28:48

barren no adult

28:51

of , i mean there's really sort of answers

28:53

before we move on and a sort of and he actually does

28:55

have some bearing on like ooh burn how acted and

28:57

everything is that one of the reasons

28:59

i think this i think kind of the split

29:02

between you on must personally and

29:04

answer the republican party generally

29:07

is that like you on musk has

29:09

become culturally v

29:11

most famous inventor even

29:14

if none of that is true obviously that's what

29:16

he is in the culture aqua yeah and

29:19

persona and so what's happened

29:21

is and because them though less and

29:23

less politics has been able to credibly

29:25

say we're going to deliver a better future right

29:27

as if the sort of the v reaganism

29:30

sort of small state austerity business that

29:32

did have a really powerful vision

29:34

of a better future just turned out to be bullshit morning

29:37

in america and now but

29:39

but you can't really sell any one that on that

29:41

anymore cause it's with it's america as was

29:43

the uk as well or not canada

29:45

but the american the uk of run through every flavor of

29:47

that canada's had the same flavor most of the whole time

29:51

or do with him run through every flavor of that we're likely

29:53

aren't you get those the real right wing crazies

29:55

yoga really pop another our house and

29:58

know if you know this but are are putative next

30:00

leader of our conservative party loves the like

30:02

make speeches about bitcoin next to a gigantic

30:04

nicole in sudbury that's

30:07

incredible snow but so what

30:09

happens right is that it's people

30:11

each individual people persona

30:13

as of of progress something

30:15

like elon musk is purported to be by the

30:18

sort of gormless tech press in

30:20

and the rest of the press as well and and politics

30:22

media sub my blah blah these people right

30:25

this is the person who the we had to say

30:28

like where are low tax state is

30:30

gonna be all about enabling this guy

30:32

and he's been playing his part for quite a while

30:34

he's been he's been sitting in

30:36

like a nice little puzzle piece in

30:39

the kind of wants to play ball and it

30:41

isn't that that's interesting and so it's

30:43

like it's it's certainly i think

30:45

it's probably worse for the people

30:47

with their actual hands on the levers of his to

30:49

it's er it's it's probably the people

30:52

with their actual hands on the leavers of power

30:54

in in in apology probably

30:56

have a much we

30:59

are going to get the better of this particular fight

31:01

much like you know trump is going to get much

31:03

get the better of this particular bickering piddling

31:06

contest but , is interesting

31:08

to see just that like he wasn't

31:11

able to kind of play

31:13

his part in the big political drama

31:15

the any sort of cari

31:18

kicking and screaming a little bit about it so

31:20

you you kind of wonder where this this

31:22

big character is gonna go yeah

31:24

i think is interesting with mosque as well because like

31:27

you know you can see how his

31:29

relationship to obama in the democrats was

31:31

important in that period because he needed

31:33

those subsidies for tesla

31:35

and for spacex and then

31:37

it was still important for him to suck

31:40

up to trump and the republicans when

31:42

they took office you know your must

31:44

not on trump's advisory committee he

31:46

wouldn't leave when he last

31:48

the paris was it now he wouldn't

31:50

leave when he did the muslim ban

31:53

but the would finally would later lit last when

31:55

they when they left the paris agreement

31:58

though like you know the immigration it didn't matter

32:00

but i guess the paris agreement it even though it

32:02

made me lyricism it's kind in for

32:05

must business right he sees it as for his own business

32:07

yeah well it whether he gives a damn you

32:09

know i think we had to your question but yeah

32:12

i think he would alienate more people

32:14

if he hadn't done it at that point because he also didn't

32:16

have like the reputation he has now but i think

32:18

then it's interesting to see how he was willing to

32:20

suck up the trump any felt it necessary to

32:22

suck up the trump in the way that trump describes in

32:24

his truth and into speeches and whatnot that

32:26

he say now then

32:29

to see the reaction that

32:31

mosque and had to biden and

32:33

to the democrats coming back in and

32:35

i think it's it's a reflection of

32:37

the fact that you must now has become

32:39

powerful enough that he doesn't

32:41

need the government and the state

32:43

to back him in the way that he did before like yes

32:46

he still needs the subsidies for spacex and things

32:48

like that but he because he

32:50

has accumulated so much wealth

32:52

because he has this cult following

32:55

that , is just die hard mosque

32:58

it seems like he doesn't feel the need to like

33:01

you know i guess try to work with these democrats

33:03

are try to get them to like him as much

33:05

him he would have felt in the past kind

33:08

of kind of like from phone sort

33:10

of twisted arrangement half me again and miniature

33:12

many such cases of the man himself

33:14

i want to move on a little bit to talk about

33:16

our core topic for the show i who did

33:19

who who could have predicted that talking about

33:21

six it's as if trump in a lot bickering

33:23

we'd stay on way longer than planned both

33:28

really funny absolute

33:30

of reasons i'm waiting for the i

33:32

attend a posts episode now on the

33:34

on trump's true there has

33:36

to be one road and you should be on it presumably

33:38

a saw the of history that he guys ss

33:40

of so we're going on he of course waited

33:43

all you got about the

33:45

i the the over files are being called

33:47

the uber files which is

33:49

a trove of documents released

33:52

the the by a goober whistleblower

33:54

a guy who was a lobbyist the

33:56

guy who the a lobbyist for obe are just could

33:58

not really know where

34:01

the bodies are buried chi a

34:03

he basically like minded our that's that's

34:05

the one guy you don't want to be like

34:07

telling anyone where the bodies of yeah but

34:10

he basically had basically lot like that

34:12

hoover's like european and middle east push

34:15

like he was like among the top

34:17

people so like he knows what

34:19

happened and he and use

34:21

a on the one hand yes he definitely did reveal

34:23

a lot the on the other hand

34:26

i'm you wonder you do sometimes gotta

34:28

wonder why are what's in it for him and

34:30

so on and so on so with

34:32

all of these kind of grains of salt i'd say

34:34

in the background the i would

34:37

love to go through

34:39

some of the revelations of us let's

34:41

say things that we've always had to say

34:43

allegedly before and now

34:45

we no longer have to say allegedly before

34:49

something's going to say yeah this is like uncontested

34:52

sites i'll end up so i'm just gives

34:54

you a little a little little sort of table setting here

34:57

this is that some hundreds or thousands of emails

35:00

of slide presentation things

35:02

of this nature basically saying

35:05

hey everyone i we've real we've

35:07

we've realized what the ideal rate is

35:09

to suck drivers in and get them to leave

35:11

author other jobs before we crater what we

35:13

pay deficit socks

35:15

off the ice harvest kilometer or in so the

35:17

and of course the other thing is that these that

35:19

these emails all our from

35:21

the kalinic era and so hoover's

35:24

response very predictably has been know

35:26

we got a person guy and now it's fine yeah

35:28

we we have i had a single person man

35:30

and he is a bulwark against corruption

35:33

that and and it's right cause insulin on

35:35

he is working very hard as

35:38

it is everywhere is everywhere there is more

35:40

you're about my sister l yorker so

35:43

hard we haven't heard from in ohio

35:45

in honor mississippi i

35:49

was up and but i'm a pretty spreads himself

35:52

sea ice all that you know for the room at

35:54

it feels as though right after

35:56

reading this other if there was to

35:58

be a movie made

36:00

about over at this point will

36:02

be quite a bit more totally close

36:04

to both of wall street than it would be to the social

36:06

net they could call it the

36:09

car of industrial homepage or

36:11

alice you get into the film titled business

36:13

professor trying

36:15

hard it however i think

36:17

also the it it suggests like that

36:20

you to operating now ah

36:22

sorted to do offerings are just undecided credibility

36:25

and like glad handing enough politicians and

36:27

pushing enough like favorable fake academic

36:29

studies on to willing pr loving journalists

36:32

it's a version of the wolf of wall street where

36:34

stratton oakmont is very much still

36:36

around today it's and promising that

36:38

it is change which in a sense it's sort

36:40

of is because he's rich or that toward

36:42

belfort is richer than he's ever been the

36:46

i'm a paris like three

36:48

layers has this is what you've written in

36:50

you tribune article you say the over

36:52

files add to our understanding of the evil

36:54

deeds and made over what it is today at

36:56

how aspects of that playbook continue to drive

36:58

it's global war against workers the

37:00

company's business model seem to undergo a fundamental

37:03

shift you said to go up and i'm an underscore

37:05

fundamental shift rather we have an opportunity

37:07

to correct a mistake made years ago over

37:09

his campaign to remake are transport system to service

37:11

commercial imperatives regardless of the consequences

37:13

should end here because we can do much better

37:16

you want to sort of go into that low but yeah sure

37:19

you know obviously we know or

37:21

i think most people would have an idea of like wipe uber

37:23

has done over the past number of

37:25

years in order to entrench it's

37:28

business , and certainly we get more details

37:30

of that from the uber files

37:33

from the speed a trove of documents it's

37:35

been released you know it tells us how

37:37

uber has an are

37:39

over how over was able to develop relationships

37:42

with t political figures in order to

37:44

you know get regulations that were favorable

37:46

to it that included people

37:49

are in the obama administration or if

37:51

you were previously in the obama administration

37:53

david plouffe administration david plouffe often pronounced

37:55

in that properly i'm and jim messina

37:57

and basically use their connections

37:59

the goodwill from being in the obama administration

38:02

in order to help uber in order to get

38:05

uber in the room with important

38:07

people and the even contacted ambassadors

38:10

in countries like france in the netherlands when uber

38:12

was facing regulatory push back and you

38:14

know governments were looking

38:16

at regulating feed the company i

38:18

but you know is far beyond that as well like

38:21

your of people in the european commission on

38:23

the mayor of toronto or george osborne

38:26

when he was censored the uk there

38:28

were a bunch of meetings with british officials

38:30

that we're not even like officially reported that

38:33

were revealed in these documents so

38:35

, all those early for a favorite super

38:38

terry him him from

38:40

smokes and how could i could yeah

38:43

and and it looks like a emanuel my a is

38:46

like facing a potential a parliamentary

38:48

inquiry now as a result of those revelations

38:50

i haven't kept on an opponent the past couple days i

38:52

don't know if they've like voted on it and when out of those

38:54

numbers more very recently betrayed

38:57

like half of the people in parliament who are supposedly

39:01

parliament lot

39:03

stupid aerion stupid am my questions

39:06

from all of the arising from these revelations are

39:08

is like what extent is as distinct

39:10

from i was a ordinary

39:13

even though there's nothing ordinary about it commonplace

39:15

lobbying or is it just this

39:18

just a we're seeing like what lobbying

39:20

is like start to finish with a cross

39:22

section or is that they're you about it as

39:24

a good question i would say i'm not like a lobby

39:26

a lobbyist expert so i'm not sure

39:28

i would be able to speak too much on like how much

39:31

it it resembles

39:33

what we would usually see i would see the i

39:35

would say the thing that is distinct for me and

39:37

that stands out especially based on white mark

39:39

mcgann said who's you know that that uber guy

39:42

who who leaked the stuff he

39:44

basically said that because of

39:46

this was a tech company because they were promising

39:48

that this was like the future this was progress

39:50

this was you know how the transportation

39:52

system was going to work a lot of these politicians

39:56

not only were like open to hearing

39:58

what oeuvre had to say

39:59

wanted to get in the room was uber

40:02

at like wanted that contact wanted

40:04

to find out what they needed in order to

40:06

kind of legitimize the service there was a big

40:08

desire to look

40:11

like they were

40:12

you know

40:13

the forefront of progress embracing innovation

40:15

all this bullshit that we've heard for for years

40:17

rights and , revelations

40:20

in what mcgann says because he was you

40:22

know in the room with all these presidents and prime ministers

40:24

and and people like that was

40:26

really that they wanted to

40:28

know what hoover wanted so they could help

40:31

the which he those things and

40:33

and that's and serious problem if we think about

40:36

the orientation of governments to the

40:38

tech industry and to you know tech

40:40

policy and all these like big proposals that

40:42

these companies are making

40:44

the runway behind and for the for

40:46

loop is like kind of pushing on an open door

40:48

right totally totally like you

40:50

know whatever these companies

40:53

promise these politicians want

40:55

to believe it right because for

40:57

some reason they feel that it works for them or

40:59

that this , how they want to present

41:02

themselves to the public's and so uber

41:04

was really able to take advantage of that because it

41:06

was one of the like primary companies that were

41:08

getting getting trade

41:10

in this way by the media and of course the

41:13

uber files reveal that uber

41:15

also had very close relationships

41:17

with relationships they even

41:19

allowed some like media barons in

41:21

india and parts of europe to

41:23

buy into the company at favorable deals

41:25

and like get you know get these other kind of deals with

41:28

uber to that they would benefit as super

41:30

grew i'm and so you know so that

41:32

uber could take advantage of the power that they

41:34

had the influence that they had with governments i'm

41:36

an uber also paid off academics to

41:39

do studies that were you know favorable

41:41

to it and then to promote those studies in the media

41:44

and so you know if we're thinking about

41:46

how we actually kind of take on

41:48

the tech industry and what it

41:50

selling us the absolute bullshit that it selling us

41:52

it's making the world a worse place and and

41:54

we see that the politicians are like so eager

41:57

to embrace you know whatever these

41:59

companies are going to say that

42:01

, that like you know it's a real uphill battle

42:04

and we really need to change the way that i

42:06

guess the people in power able to think about these

42:08

tech companies and damn yeah has

42:10

yeah promising said

42:12

the media likes you or have room speaking

42:14

of reasons as as you have that

42:16

ah said ah said you have that hancock's

42:18

response to being revealed being these documents in

42:20

front of a while i go

42:22

i your that way i want to say also like but one of the

42:24

reasons right why why

42:27

but why i think there is there's multiple reasons

42:30

why said white polish a electoral politicians

42:33

love to get posed basically

42:36

one of them is and he doesn't have discussed many

42:38

times before is that this can mostly

42:40

you on offers a vision of a better future

42:42

a marketing vision of a better future that politics really

42:44

can't credibly offer inside the bouncer

42:47

the overton window anymore the

42:49

other thing i think is that a lot

42:52

is that this is it's common sense

42:54

released it was common sense the mid to in

42:56

the mid to late twenty teens that

42:59

everything needed to be over eyes or tenderized

43:01

or what have you right and what

43:04

you'd like you got super bright guy for yes

43:06

right and yeah you're a what what it meant

43:08

was is it was that bb people

43:10

whose i'm were to with desperately

43:13

trying to generate a positive headlines are

43:15

going to there's a

43:17

who live in that media world are just

43:19

going to think in terms of more boosterism

43:22

more boosterism more boosterism because they're trying

43:24

to follow where where things are going in

43:26

a world now in a in a world where i think

43:28

there is widespread disenchantment

43:31

with i come with something like with like uber

43:33

or whatever you know you've yeah get and

43:36

it it can be example of of of not hancock

43:38

here is pretty good right now

43:40

get people who are trying to distance themselves from these

43:43

things might not have might

43:45

not have let's say been quite so willing

43:47

to bend over backwards for them if only because

43:50

they sort of were trying to bend over backwards

43:52

for some other thing that he thought was gonna be more

43:54

hi it was a fad

43:57

right like it was sort of it was sad it

43:59

was awful the most a

44:01

and people go or years right matt hancock said

44:03

after being accused of taking a an undeclared

44:05

meeting with them and twenty fourteen it was a

44:07

policy of the government quite rightly to attract

44:10

tech companies to the uk all the efforts

44:12

matt undertook in pursuit of that were above board

44:14

declare properly referring to have this

44:16

is both first met a mr is

44:19

this most awesome matt wearing matt berry

44:21

massage or mr or mr had

44:23

previously tweeted in support of the ride hailing up

44:25

during the london blacks have strike and twenty fourteen

44:27

of course when we always we all know about

44:29

hancock doesn't need to be unduly influenced

44:32

mean you feel do it himself

44:34

however a bit but i think the they go he takes

44:36

pains to say that he's been unafraid to

44:38

criticize uber and other tech companies when a necessary

44:41

and appropriate with the i don't think you

44:43

necessarily what when well

44:45

no of course he hasn't right if all been

44:47

saying this kind of stuff to like the mayor of toronto

44:49

was i'm named in these in these

44:51

revelations as well as basically like you

44:54

know having these meetings with uber and then i'm

44:56

passing regulations in toronto that basically

44:59

matched exactly what uber wanted

45:01

the regulations to look like i'm and

45:03

you know he put at a statement the other day to being

45:05

like know you know i wasn't unduly influence

45:08

you can see that we were one of the first cities to

45:10

regulate uber you know ignoring that a

45:12

regulator duper exactly as uber wanted to be

45:14

regulated i'm and then said you know we've

45:16

updated those regulations as the circumstances

45:19

have changed and it's like yeah but like you legitimize

45:21

the company in the city and like

45:23

decimated the taxi workers and

45:26

like you know because you had these close

45:28

relationships and and the canadian media has

45:30

outlined by our the people who were

45:32

around him who have worked at uber before

45:35

or had relationships with uber gone on to

45:37

work with over after i'm an end

45:39

in canada the canadian conservative

45:41

party in the last election last year i'm

45:44

actually had a plaque in their platform about

45:46

regulating dig ,

45:48

oh along the lines of exactly what hooper bonds

45:51

and the head of the policy committee

45:54

was actually was new for lobbyists and so like

45:56

you know they're just deeply entrenched in all of these

45:58

like little

45:59

circle you should know about really

46:03

hurting as well as they are most of these is

46:05

even always tell if a legislation

46:07

was written by someone from over because

46:10

it was a basically have something that

46:12

says gig economy slave but it a euphemistic

46:14

ah term follows high

46:17

gloss though california

46:19

is now branding their all

46:21

their there there see

46:23

twenty two bell right the

46:26

that proposition seats are this and not yet that that

46:28

see going to be another dubbed the one you can be

46:30

at a big worker any of that one up when you do

46:32

ya think it's a it's now the law

46:34

is it the status is independent contractor

46:36

plus and the tory canadian

46:38

tory of plan for the cop

46:41

for a buy guns dig workers as com flexible work

46:43

plus stoic omaha if it uber

46:45

guy wrote it apple tv plus

46:47

flexible worthless everything's a posse right

46:51

our added a it also like i think

46:53

that the way it also bearing in mind it's like all

46:56

of the things it was supposed to accomplished so

46:58

it's marketing said it was supposed to accomplish

47:01

lifestyle benefits are middle class people who just

47:03

aren't using their cars all the time and then

47:05

out that is all to fulfill this impossible

47:08

dream of flying robo taxis not on of his

47:10

car they've been unable to

47:12

attain that that particular promise the

47:15

are obviously rags that was always gonna

47:17

be there was it was always a fake promise

47:19

out at the flying cars were assayed promise for the south

47:21

investors and but when

47:23

none of it works they did what any business

47:25

has to do after it takes over a bunch of markets

47:28

which is like there's increase wait times

47:30

ruth quality all that stuff but beyond

47:32

all of these ostensible goals

47:34

and the covert

47:36

goals or he goes for investors would have you there's

47:38

another goal which is basically i think this is

47:40

something you mentioned in your article paris it kind

47:43

of the apotheosis of what turned out to be

47:45

a koch brothers plan to deregulate

47:47

the tab industry everywhere them again

47:50

has a guys they love they turnip

47:53

yeah yeah i'd have

47:55

any it absolutely is ray rice

47:57

and i would just say on the documents like i would

47:59

say one of the

47:59

the things that in that's important to note about them is

48:02

they do i still in a lot of details

48:04

but largely like they're kind

48:07

of reinforcing things that we already know about

48:09

the company right we know that it had these like kill

48:11

switches for the devices in the offices

48:13

around the world we know that they were using gray

48:15

ball to like distract from regulators

48:17

we knew that they had relationships with academics

48:20

and with politicians and with the media by

48:22

you know we didn't have like confirmation exactly

48:25

and like off the kind of background or details

48:27

and these files do give us that which i think his employer

48:30

the i do want to talk about grable

48:32

some point as well yeah

48:35

what we can definitely get to that i

48:37

would i would also say that

48:39

if you were saying like these revelations cover two

48:41

thousand and thirteen to two thousand and seventeen

48:43

am and so that is really the period when travis

48:46

county is still kind of in charge

48:48

of the company and then he gets replaced in two thousand

48:50

and seventeen with our coasts are shy you

48:52

know that the guy you were mentioning earlier and

48:55

kind of what they say is that okay dora

48:57

comes in and he changes the culture of

48:59

hooper right he kind of overhauls it and so they're

49:02

not this evil terrible conflict company anymore

49:04

he made in then turn off the criminality

49:07

exactly yes stop the sexual harassment

49:09

in the office and all this gonna sell

49:13

the thing to recognize about that

49:15

is that you know okay maybe you change

49:17

some internal culture staff maybe you know

49:19

it's not as terrible to be a woman at uber i

49:21

don't know for sure maybe it's still really shit

49:24

right

49:25

though they're trying to frame these these

49:27

papers as though okay

49:29

you know yeah we were bad before everyone knows

49:31

that the post two thousand and seventeen when

49:34

doors in charge were actually good

49:36

again you know where we're not the oval tommy

49:39

mowgli range take me that's

49:41

exactly and but what we can see

49:44

is that when dora takes over they

49:46

escalate this war on workers by pushing

49:48

for proposition twenty two in california

49:51

to ensure that workers are made employees

49:53

they start pushing for this after they win

49:56

that boats and they start pushing for

49:58

it to extend other states in united

50:00

states and washington state

50:02

recently passed a new gig

50:04

work feel that it resembles most

50:06

of what over with like i'm they run into trouble

50:09

into massachusetts in canada day from

50:11

putting my schoolwork plus and there have been developments

50:13

in that direction in ontario in

50:16

the uk there's the recent decision recognizing

50:19

i'm gig workers as workers

50:21

instead of as independent contractors by

50:23

that ruling said that the

50:26

, should be paid from log on to log

50:28

off not just the time when they have an order

50:30

arrived arrived uber ignored

50:32

that and is still just paying them

50:35

the minimum wage for when they actually have

50:37

when they're actually active you would say when they have a ride

50:39

a even though that goes against what

50:41

the supreme court said should happen i'm

50:43

and so they use all these things to try to say

50:45

that they're this like you know great employer

50:48

that they've changed blah blah blah when

50:50

actually there are actively working to

50:53

you know in french a

50:55

the warm of employment status that reduces

50:58

the workers that reduces the rights and

51:00

benefits and protections that workers actually have

51:04

while using their pr machine to make it look like

51:06

a positive thing and the final thing i would say

51:08

but that is that the over files

51:10

you know as i've been saying shows how they

51:12

had these relationships to politicians rights

51:15

i'm and in in saying that those

51:17

things have changed that we're not doing those things anymore

51:19

you know is it's a complete is just total

51:21

bullshit rights because they continue to try

51:24

to gain these relationships with

51:26

politicians you know all over the place

51:28

so that they can pass these regulations that serve

51:30

their benefits over the workers we can see

51:33

that in canada we can also see i'm

51:35

after saudi arabia

51:37

murdered uma pessoa khashoggi darcos

51:40

or saw he was like oh yeah you know people

51:42

make mistakes you know we all make mistakes and

51:44

it's suicide

51:45

they just like murdered a guy cold blood like

51:47

what are you talking about but saudi arabia is

51:50

one of them as shareholders so sometimes

51:52

you just have to like walk backwards out of a building

51:54

and when you do that you might want attention over i'm

51:58

a d v d i think

52:00

that be the defining moment of cars

52:02

are shy his tenure at obe are certainly

52:05

was just kind ,

52:07

forgetting that you're supposed to pretend

52:09

to be mad at because you disorders

52:11

that shirtless at least are a bit before

52:14

continuing to take his money it's really

52:17

funny the other thing right is that we talk

52:19

about that this they being a sort of a koch brothers

52:21

dream his resume bagging on the night

52:23

where they they they were obe are sort

52:25

of did all this stuff and it was based on this

52:27

premise the completely

52:29

deregulating these i'm a taxi

52:32

industry you could argue that like the

52:34

koch brothers dream in terms of the taxi

52:36

industry specifically didn't really

52:38

work because it's not as though there

52:40

is now sort of one profitable company

52:42

that you've the koch brothers can invest in that

52:46

you can just like bide our whole taxi market

52:48

is over still doesn't work very well but

52:50

what did happen with a so is it affected

52:52

kind of lost the battle but they did

52:54

when the war because it was super that created

52:57

the model of gig were

52:59

now spreading everywhere else absolutely

53:02

and like i'd dig into this a bit more in

53:04

in my book and is really pulling from some

53:06

work that i'm feeney to ball has done

53:08

that i uber horror and a transportation

53:10

consultant has have zones in they

53:12

have kind of outlined how you

53:15

, the koch brothers really pushed this

53:17

notion or or you know where where

53:19

part where part of funding this

53:22

campaign to deregulate the taxi

53:24

industry in the united states in the nineteen nineties

53:27

that largely failed because sassy workers

53:29

did still have some power at the time right

53:31

and were able to push back against that yes they had successes

53:34

in some parts of the country guess they rolled something fact

53:36

the taxi workers still had the

53:39

regulatory framework that provided them some

53:41

protections in terms of you know regulating

53:43

the with the price of a fair regulating the number of

53:45

drivers that to be on the road so that you

53:47

know they wouldn't just see their just

53:49

see conditions and their earnings just plummet

53:52

right because it did the market will be

53:54

slaughtered or people be competing on price and what

53:56

have you have and so when over

53:58

comes along the are able to read the pick

54:00

up that playbook from the nineteen nineties

54:02

from that deregulatory campaign

54:04

that that ultimately failed and

54:07

really pushed to destroy

54:09

the taxi regulations that existed to write

54:11

themselves out of those regulations to

54:13

decimate the taxi industry that was already

54:16

they are kind of com

54:18

the taxi industry and to create as

54:20

you were saying this new form of geek work that

54:22

is able to carve a whole load of other people

54:25

out of regular and of employment relationships

54:27

and and employment status and that

54:29

even though i'm uber is like

54:32

a company that has never turned a profit

54:34

that still really beneficial for a lot

54:36

of capitalist to be able to

54:39

decimate workers like that to remove

54:41

their rights and to set up this new framework that

54:43

they can kind of benefit from going

54:45

for and so i'm i'm i wanted

54:47

to get into some of the specifics yeah right specifically

54:50

because we talk so much about tech

54:52

media on on this show as you do on

54:54

yours as you are friends at

54:57

this machine tell and

54:59

another five high test but i wanted zoc

55:01

a little bit about there

55:03

are pr their pr work in

55:05

the works example that sort of am i think

55:07

most people will know which is

55:10

the the university economist

55:12

targeted in france to like do paid

55:14

work for over in the first thing i noticed about

55:16

this right arm which is that

55:18

like they would give

55:20

like an academic sort of a hundred thousand

55:22

more more euros are just too like

55:24

do a piece of favorable research for

55:27

them the it is so

55:29

much more expensive to buy european

55:31

academics in a tory mp the

55:34

thing , academics know that

55:36

worth the forced to tory mps

55:38

they it's there to get paid enough and get expenses

55:40

announced that they can just be like indulge their little

55:43

women's be like i'll get me some so

55:45

tiny jockey furniture odessa as

55:47

if you give man hancock like a branded

55:49

had like he will legalize

55:51

the evil legalize you to evil push

55:54

for you to be able to run he went over like gallons

55:56

and your work is go absolutely

55:59

yeah , be the yes you fight you

56:01

can drive on the pays that's

56:03

cool so

56:06

from that for this is basically i was written in

56:09

in in in in across the river interest

56:12

in saudi been a investigative journalist they would

56:14

say like they negotiated for example

56:16

one hundred thousand euro consultancy arrangement with

56:18

a rising star of university university economics

56:21

professor august deal on the a the to

56:23

lose good economics and some of

56:25

his colleague and so

56:27

this this report this is

56:29

or an article in the f t even twenty sixteen

56:32

citing the study and i'm going to read quite

56:34

a bit of it because it is genuinely jawdropping

56:36

considering what we know without over baba

56:39

or sankor as he is known to his friends and

56:41

will be nice suburb in northern paris likes

56:43

to say that uber got him out of jail

56:45

and kept him out that was nice

56:47

of them are high school dropout baba started

56:50

to slip into petty crime is teenagers that's

56:52

like many youngsters in the unemployment stricken

56:54

immigrant enclaves that circle france's

56:56

capital and he went to jail several times

56:59

then goober rolled out it's ride hailing

57:01

apps in france i'm a

57:03

friend who started the many type company using

57:06

our over technology offered baba job

57:08

as a driver and a judge let him out early under

57:11

judicial review oliver

57:13

basically a date they did a great

57:15

escape at a broke this guy out of jail

57:17

so he could start his own business yeah they're facing

57:19

a team together to in i'm sorry

57:22

prisons around laughing

57:24

as he drove his pooja five away to a dagger

57:26

a garros to truck rundown rosa small houses

57:29

baba says without this job maybe i would still

57:31

be in prison it took only a few years for

57:33

obe or another tip pops platform this

57:35

is where we basically see safe

57:38

who is keeping baba in prison the

57:41

parisian taxis monopoly

57:43

i now on on on transport

57:45

in the capital it's a tiny beauty

57:47

cartel since is only five

57:50

years for over other platforms challenging

57:52

the reason taxis monopoly street more than

57:54

fifteen thousand jobs so look i'm

57:56

sorry if you want to like you know our if

57:58

you don't want to deregulate the thing for over

58:00

to come in just look at baba in

58:02

his kids and tell them he has to go back

58:04

to jail or i know

58:06

there's an older brother this year yeah

58:09

i'll tell the children these

58:12

little anecdotes rival the always pick i would

58:14

like with the one person they can find who

58:16

really benefits from uber and then like ignore

58:18

everyone else is like sleep in in their cars and stuff

58:20

because like their livelihoods have been decimated

58:23

and so this is the

58:26

feel good story why aren't you feeling good though

58:28

it has it goes i this is sort of this that the fluff

58:30

before we get into the actual sighting of the study at

58:32

there has been a tidal wave of start ups in the ball

58:34

use an entire generation want to be uber

58:36

drivers said sabrina laura what planet adam

58:39

a nonprofit organization that helps residents

58:41

in a separate said appendices that's a

58:43

good thing is half as a

58:45

considering that uber drivers start ups

58:47

like is is suffering and it's that it

58:49

did of france the model as you can have a mini

58:52

cab company that than just signed

58:54

contracts to her and then that is a quote unquote

58:56

start up the graham

58:59

research the bear this out

59:01

there we go

59:02

shabazz sell a phd student it as

59:04

i say paris business school and the most

59:06

mini cab registrations where in where in the suburbs

59:09

of north and south east paris for economic conditions

59:11

are are are the harshest after

59:13

ober agreed to partly openness database

59:15

professor augustine launch yeah the guy

59:17

who was paid one hundred thousand euro the

59:20

professor the to to school of economics and

59:22

david does same are a professor

59:24

as i say conducted the first detailed study

59:26

of uber drivers in france indeed

59:29

a data over gave them and a get at the time

59:31

there didn't seem to be much of a desire say

59:34

hey wait a minute what lot of

59:36

course know how why because if

59:38

you say hey wait a minute pause for

59:40

a moment why then

59:43

you are sort of you know called disparagingly

59:45

a luddite because that's the moment when this

59:47

whole thing is so flooded with venture capital

59:50

that no one's really asking how you can get all

59:52

the way across paris for like five

59:54

euros great the party

59:57

the party is here i don't know who's paying

59:59

for is the , of oil seems

1:00:01

to be up i can't imagine those are correlated

1:00:04

the but it's the it's it's just pieces

1:00:07

like the saudis recycling petrodollars

1:00:09

into demolishing the world's top industry

1:00:12

it's listen that broke that guy out of jail

1:00:14

or i would would they have done that as they were bad

1:00:17

guys have some of the drivers

1:00:19

a drivers have the highest grades do not fit the

1:00:21

stereotype of the perfect employee for example

1:00:23

one is tattooed in another has dreadlocks

1:00:26

oh my that something crazy

1:00:28

because the thing is right being a cab driver

1:00:30

the use the a used to be like insane

1:00:33

li tough dress code and now he didn't have

1:00:35

if you didn't have like shine choose

1:00:37

to a polish when i got into a cab i would get

1:00:40

out the other side gonna not his address to

1:00:42

of we all know that be and if if it's like

1:00:44

i'm if we're going to a white tie thing

1:00:46

you need to have like the sort of tweed

1:00:48

had with the little a visor just

1:00:51

need to have the kind of like i'm leather

1:00:53

jacket open over the stain white certain

1:00:55

the chain the you don't that very

1:00:57

that they take it very seriously the help

1:00:59

it's like a worshipful company of taxi

1:01:01

driver after that that is one and

1:01:05

so basically the researchers just

1:01:07

essentially says that out yet look

1:01:10

out the research bears it out that it the more

1:01:12

you deregulate taxis then

1:01:14

just the you have to make these people better

1:01:16

officer welfare spending they just make money themselves

1:01:19

by being uber drivers and

1:01:21

, and that's and that's the research that was done that

1:01:24

uber basically paid like and drive overs

1:01:26

forever were pretty so now and

1:01:29

it's exactly the narrative like to

1:01:31

hear you describe that like it's exactly the narrative

1:01:33

that was used in the nineties by

1:01:35

the clinton administration to like justify

1:01:38

their the illegal liberal program

1:01:40

or like part of what they used to justify it

1:01:42

because the internet was going to provide

1:01:45

economic opportunity to poor people and

1:01:47

so you could got the welfare state

1:01:50

state also increase the car cyril state

1:01:53

and , what they did like that was part of their

1:01:55

project and so it's always fascinating

1:01:57

to me to hear those narratives become

1:01:59

like recycle

1:01:59

because be hard them again recently from

1:02:02

you are mosque enormous the same as starlink

1:02:04

is gonna create opportunity all around the world by

1:02:06

like expanding access to the internet it's

1:02:08

like dude we've heard this before it's all lotuses

1:02:11

listen just the fact that it's been like disprove

1:02:14

multiple times by experience isn't enough

1:02:16

to write it off this time mad now

1:02:18

you know maybe we can find some other

1:02:20

sort of like sector of ah

1:02:22

like ah undervalued labour

1:02:25

that we can exploit using the internet know

1:02:27

those people become entrepreneurs exactly

1:02:29

exactly here's the ending of that article

1:02:32

mit go on to grab all before we close it out

1:02:34

or it's as people this is baba or

1:02:37

if ten thousand drivers are drivers

1:02:40

are because of new regulations is heavily

1:02:42

implied and we won't be able to meet demand

1:02:44

prices go up and wait times can be longer many

1:02:46

many but we'll just go back to the bali is and

1:02:49

most of the go back to crime your your

1:02:51

your these guys go back to crime by

1:02:53

right yeah absolutely looked as

1:02:55

if you do emmanuel macron was right actually

1:02:57

by allowing uber and yeah

1:02:59

that's right that's right it's a it should be brave

1:03:02

and if you managed to save on the police budget by

1:03:04

making everyone in france and uber driver and

1:03:08

the police budget let's talk about all

1:03:10

of the things the at it again

1:03:13

not is that his his plaything right ike

1:03:15

i can now say this without fear of being suits

1:03:18

the thing about over and almost

1:03:20

every corporation you can think of is that the

1:03:22

people running them are criminals ah

1:03:24

that that's an important factor understanding

1:03:27

what's going on here is that the great

1:03:29

deal of what business is is

1:03:31

criminality that you are terrified any

1:03:33

one will discover and the my

1:03:35

face any consequences for and so

1:03:38

we get to talk about grable don't

1:03:40

view and the kill switch

1:03:42

all of these on the though tactics that they developed

1:03:45

to ah and of really it

1:03:47

is it is fully like flushing the evidence down

1:03:49

the toilet so there's no distinction between

1:03:52

those two things and ethic

1:03:54

it's also worth saying that right yes that

1:03:56

says that lot of this of this for evading police

1:03:59

it gets good the know important to remember that are

1:04:01

not the police would not have meaningfully

1:04:03

stop them from doing much of this i

1:04:06

i disagree i sing at that does of the reason

1:04:08

why you do it is because you're afraid of that

1:04:10

least the possibility i think there's

1:04:12

a difference between like the police would not

1:04:14

have done this which is certainly true the had like

1:04:17

enough poll hire enough or that's

1:04:19

it i mean yes difference and the difference

1:04:21

between that and only the police

1:04:23

out of any of the sort of like bourgeois

1:04:25

institutions a size he could have done

1:04:28

and the thing i think the police were the

1:04:30

only ones that like of the tax authorities

1:04:32

or whatever other sort of my force most basic

1:04:34

death would the only ones that made over feel threatened

1:04:37

them i think we should sort of take them

1:04:39

by their own actions take their word for

1:04:41

it on that i think what i what i what i sort of have

1:04:43

written written down my notes is that i don't think

1:04:45

that because the because of how

1:04:47

big the like the relationship between the police state

1:04:49

capital and ogres relationship with the states

1:04:52

i think it's sort of unlikely that they would have

1:04:54

ended up doing much but

1:04:56

i think what have what is true is that over

1:04:59

saw this as an arm of the state

1:05:01

which he perceived as providing kind

1:05:03

of democratic oversight of it's activities

1:05:05

which could not be tolerated i think that's the

1:05:07

case

1:05:08

it depends on a jurisdiction as well ray like

1:05:10

it's very different depending on where

1:05:13

, looking like there's some places that were

1:05:15

much more forceful than others

1:05:17

like some places where like yeah we don't care

1:05:19

like led the overs come in whatever

1:05:21

other places i would say where the tax

1:05:23

taxi industry was more powerful were

1:05:26

able to push back more effectively i'm

1:05:29

like in portland oregon which is where is believe

1:05:31

gray ball was like is like the main story

1:05:33

of were great ball was used and i think where it was like

1:05:35

pioneered was the regulators were like

1:05:38

basically going into uber

1:05:40

vehicles i'm like order

1:05:42

them ordering order on them phone and then base like

1:05:44

handing them i can't remember

1:05:46

what the type of thing would be were basically saying like were

1:05:48

impounding your car because this is

1:05:50

illegal you're not supposed to be doing this and

1:05:52

that's why they they developed for a while because thing gray

1:05:54

ball like that fake cars

1:05:57

on the on the map and every time

1:05:59

they would try to hail

1:05:59

car it would like cancel on them because they

1:06:02

would naturally get a real car it's have to

1:06:04

pretend sort of like toy

1:06:06

version of over that you can show so a regulate

1:06:08

so he can use did like that use regulation

1:06:11

but it's a just imagine like

1:06:13

a being a sort of a euro crack

1:06:15

or whatever who is like trying to get

1:06:18

home from their job as like up

1:06:20

some kind of regulatory role in brussels

1:06:22

is felix i can i fucking get a car

1:06:26

they did this they targeted these people by

1:06:28

like ringfencing by geo ringfencing

1:06:31

things like police stations yeah so if you

1:06:33

works in of least they can if you're in a police station

1:06:35

you could not halen either because that

1:06:37

would be intercepted partway through which

1:06:40

is again a very amusing slightly

1:06:42

like since ceiling your own

1:06:45

crimes like that that are his nose

1:06:47

to the like other gloss you can put on

1:06:49

it that's what it is

1:06:51

absolutely any can see in the uber files that

1:06:53

like you know people at the company

1:06:55

are admitting what they do is illegal

1:06:58

like they absolutely no it but

1:07:00

they don't care and they know that like

1:07:03

they're basically not going to face

1:07:05

any real consequences for it like

1:07:07

okay yeah the my face like monetary

1:07:09

find somewhere but they have like more money

1:07:11

than god or insignia going out and

1:07:13

like handcuffs over this yeah exactly

1:07:16

and edsel it's the but

1:07:18

this but this that be of extent to which it's

1:07:20

very brazen i think you were said earlier

1:07:22

paris like to what extent is this are you

1:07:25

you said is ours and he and you have an answer paris i

1:07:27

want to sort of go back to that which is

1:07:29

what extent is this just normal activity

1:07:32

and what is really striking is that any

1:07:34

time the leaders listed on this kind of

1:07:37

thing it always looks really similar gansler

1:07:40

at any at listen this is this is

1:07:42

playbook stuff as far as i'm concerned yikes

1:07:44

what when when i said that like any corporation

1:07:47

is run by criminals can sorta corporation is

1:07:50

yeah and you know what when that like

1:07:52

a sense you on sort of a procedural

1:07:55

or moral level or not but that's just

1:07:57

to those in tackles how they do business yeah

1:08:00

and i would say the more and more that

1:08:02

we see like how these tech companies act that

1:08:04

the more similar it is like the more you can see

1:08:07

that they're taking the same sorts of actions

1:08:09

to evade

1:08:10

regulations enforcement all these sorts of things

1:08:13

i'm just a benefit themselves

1:08:15

their own business

1:08:16

i'm it's worthless this we have grave

1:08:18

all right which is the say goober that

1:08:21

you give to people who might ask questions

1:08:23

about it where every car just as that's

1:08:25

our another legitimate car ah

1:08:28

but we also have another couple so one

1:08:30

is heaven which basically

1:08:33

much like that mark zuckerberg thing where he can

1:08:35

just go view any for add message on facebook

1:08:38

the they at that travis callen it could

1:08:40

look at every uber the

1:08:42

at any any uber going on going around

1:08:44

his they could use that to determine then

1:08:47

am when there was a ah ah

1:08:49

are arrayed plan they say

1:08:51

you could see them ordering a driver speak

1:08:53

to the driver and ask them to do circles or call

1:08:55

the rider to save button traffic and so on the

1:08:58

you get high to fully the same sauce like

1:09:00

having reception stole them while you're

1:09:02

like throwing hard drives home the when

1:09:05

to have which of course they also had

1:09:07

a button to do it i mean look at little switch

1:09:09

as a kill switch is my favorite example of like

1:09:11

acid of regulation deceit and that is a

1:09:14

is is your offices or raided by

1:09:17

authorities the police whoever else or

1:09:19

someone an urban headquarters can push a button

1:09:22

and it just denies access

1:09:24

to data and like deniable way

1:09:26

to that whole office the

1:09:28

it in order was it's like that it either used

1:09:31

to be like file corrupt earth that you

1:09:33

could get for like if you wanted to warn us or high

1:09:35

on send my ass say because it must have

1:09:37

like the some that must have gotten like corrupted

1:09:39

or something yeah yeah exactly

1:09:41

the same thing they they give them

1:09:44

they had one of those but for their

1:09:46

entire i'd like tax records

1:09:48

of their finances are sorry i can't say i

1:09:50

can't send you the details

1:09:53

of how we've added all of our drivers according

1:09:55

to rules of the statistics the statistics i'm afraid

1:09:57

to fly up has become throughout the what can i

1:09:59

have the one anything but like rockets

1:10:01

the of the so that the top left us with less

1:10:03

school campus here and like makes me appreciate enforcement

1:10:06

as a mechanism seeing

1:10:08

the emails about using the

1:10:10

kill switch where you know travis

1:10:13

clinical be sending an email at three

1:10:15

in the morning going hey we need to fucking burn all

1:10:17

the shit naps the damn right now i'm i feel

1:10:20

like the guy

1:10:22

at the end of starship troopers with his hand

1:10:24

on the bug like it's afraid my

1:10:28

great way you can terrify

1:10:31

these people all it takes is like a

1:10:33

, mental wellness like others are

1:10:35

definitely a big mess of probe and

1:10:37

also raising their offices they really

1:10:39

don't like that and as good and to keep doing

1:10:42

that some of that be

1:10:44

the albeit be that is in itself insufficient

1:10:47

because they have like work done workarounds

1:10:50

but like as something that something should

1:10:52

also to be i think my interpretation of the

1:10:54

into starship troopers is that

1:10:56

doogie howser just says that because

1:10:58

he thinks everyone else is gonna think it's great

1:11:01

it's don't think of rain bug is actually bug friend of

1:11:05

the i want to move on just to the sort

1:11:07

of to to sort of by way of of of wrappings

1:11:09

wrap things up of which is what over

1:11:12

has sort of semi we've we've barely scratched

1:11:14

the surface of the surface of this of course those

1:11:16

it assisted suicide talkie pepper on

1:11:19

trump and you on months is to get a post

1:11:21

existential certain topics yeah absolutely

1:11:23

right i it this is what uber

1:11:25

has respect said right they've said look this

1:11:28

is why over is hard a new ceo dark

1:11:31

as are shy who was tasked with transforming

1:11:33

the culture of the company i think one

1:11:35

of the things that we talk about right as if

1:11:37

your business is your volume if

1:11:39

your business model to literally

1:11:42

by market share and and jack up

1:11:44

the prices you are a you

1:11:46

are gonna have to bulldoze every regulation

1:11:48

that's designed to prevent entrance into a market

1:11:51

from doing that you have whole and

1:11:53

about by by had some nights you have to commit

1:11:55

crimes and so the is a t v

1:11:57

culture of uber was never

1:11:59

a the cultural over was terrible but

1:12:02

the thing that like causes of

1:12:04

the you see a nice they still would have done

1:12:06

all of the same the precisely right in and taught

1:12:08

so just it is such an obvious

1:12:11

a smokescreen and you can even see they they

1:12:13

also try to hide behind eric fucking

1:12:15

holder another obama

1:12:18

it's it's it's cause or saw you was guided

1:12:20

for start by the recommendations of eric

1:12:22

holder

1:12:23

like what you mean obama guys love to just got

1:12:26

it like that the pod save america john's like

1:12:28

v poorest obama a lot

1:12:30

of his ass off his jokes ,

1:12:32

they could have all gone to work for like you know that

1:12:35

sports ads and he food waste start

1:12:37

up and gotten paid like forty million dollars a year

1:12:39

yet they fucking didn't they're stuck in here

1:12:41

with us in the podcasting dojo at one of the

1:12:43

rare examples with south africa add

1:12:45

business decision decision make i think

1:12:48

it's interesting to note as well though that like

1:12:51

when travis county travis kicked out in

1:12:53

like two thousand in like two thousand and seventeen

1:12:55

is framed as though this is because

1:12:57

of the culture of the company because the culture

1:12:59

is a problem and he created this culture

1:13:02

i'm and i don't get into this in the piece by i

1:13:04

think it's fair to say that that is bullshit the

1:13:06

investors and and this and whatnot and

1:13:08

a board and when i don't really give a damn about

1:13:10

the culture of the company they're concerned

1:13:12

that because it has reached the scale

1:13:15

where people are really concerned

1:13:17

about it it's not so much that they're concerned about

1:13:19

the workers and as in the headquarters in what

1:13:21

they're subject to but rather that travis

1:13:24

county is becoming so toxic as

1:13:26

a bill right and their ability exactly to

1:13:28

to make back their capital to earn

1:13:30

a return on their investment it's not that they

1:13:32

really want to clean up the culture so to

1:13:35

i mean of course is so they had to go one

1:13:38

person men of accurate this

1:13:41

is they say we moved on from the era

1:13:43

of confrontation to one of collaboration

1:13:46

then we've listed all the things they've done

1:13:48

since cause or size taken over the beginning

1:13:50

of some of the things they've done is and money more of

1:13:52

which ones were those with those confrontation or

1:13:54

collaboration of excess what they are

1:13:56

it's it's it's collaborative effort to like

1:13:59

destroy the phone it live alone yeah

1:14:01

be they're actually doing this or the workers

1:14:03

like you know they're helping the workers by taking

1:14:06

away their rights and benefits i suppose they are collaborating

1:14:08

with california democrat

1:14:11

in california it's yes

1:14:13

california hub facility they renamed

1:14:16

like california likes you know them across

1:14:18

the gala for them to ,

1:14:20

look as if demonstrating a willingness

1:14:22

to come to the table and find common ground with former

1:14:24

opponents including labor unions and taxi companies

1:14:26

against i struggle to identify where common

1:14:29

ground has been found what white violent why

1:14:31

aren't you compromising with them pass want economizing

1:14:33

with right now said that reaching out here this

1:14:37

you as their enemy you should be around the table

1:14:39

yeah i i should be taken my payment and

1:14:42

like starting to say that uber is fantastic

1:14:44

one of the people who one of the people

1:14:46

who comes up in up in of these articles

1:14:49

is i'm alex rosenblatt

1:14:51

who wrote a critical book about uber

1:14:53

a few years back and then like a couple of years after

1:14:55

the book came out was like oh yes oh i'm going to work

1:14:57

through are now guys and or yeah

1:15:00

i i didn't realize you could literally

1:15:02

sell out like that that's the audible

1:15:06

the and under

1:15:08

the other priests who come up as well as like if

1:15:10

you want think about the legacy of post cars

1:15:12

are shy uber in the same way as the legacy

1:15:14

of over in general is the creation of gig

1:15:16

worked the legacy oppose cause or saw a collaborative

1:15:19

a goober is the legacy of intrinsic

1:15:21

to terrorism right not

1:15:24

did having this gig work thing that's terrible

1:15:26

but then creating all of the legislative

1:15:28

framework around it that makes it impossible

1:15:30

to get rid of and you see that anytime

1:15:32

you targeted this is an example of announcement from mark

1:15:35

warner but you can see this in the uk

1:15:37

and see this in even like the fucking like of the

1:15:39

liberal the liberal party's ah a

1:15:41

plaid not just the conservative base we read

1:15:43

my job or guy and this is

1:15:45

all about say how you get gig

1:15:48

workers benefits for example right

1:15:50

and doing that kind of thing as opposed to destroying

1:15:52

the category entirely in trenches

1:15:54

it it makes it impossible to get rid of the thank

1:15:57

you does or cock dark has received for sitting

1:15:59

around the table in thrashing this out with all

1:16:01

your fat it

1:16:03

let's let's say as well that the benefits are complete

1:16:06

bullshit like of they're not real in

1:16:08

any sense like those talk about a minimum wage

1:16:10

to talk about health benefits but most

1:16:12

workers don't get that the minimum wage is only

1:16:14

for the time you have a ride so in california

1:16:16

the estimated is equivalent to five sixty

1:16:18

four an hour it like it's it's your job

1:16:21

and i think i would also note that like you

1:16:23

know we've talked about the evolution of we were like

1:16:25

what it has become right i'm like it sold

1:16:27

off alves big bets during the pandemic

1:16:29

because it admitted that autonomous vehicles

1:16:32

i'm flying cars and all this stuff this complete bullshit

1:16:35

instead it was refocusing on ride

1:16:37

hail and on food delivery and

1:16:39

now we've seen you know uber is very much

1:16:41

like an easy money company money company money company

1:16:43

right arm and now we've seen

1:16:45

interest rates are rising it's gonna be more difficult

1:16:48

for that and i think one of the notable

1:16:50

developments is that uber has

1:16:52

started to make agreements with taxi

1:16:54

companies that have very taxi companies that it

1:16:56

tried to like eradicate i'm in new

1:16:58

york city in san francisco in italy

1:17:01

i'm sure they are more coming to put the taxis

1:17:03

on the app so after decimating

1:17:06

the conditions of the drivers after effectively

1:17:08

deregulating the taxi industry now

1:17:10

troopers coming in and saying put your

1:17:12

taxes on our app and

1:17:15

you you know i'm not exactly sure how

1:17:17

the regulatory framework works right now but

1:17:19

it it looks to me like the final

1:17:21

step to just subjecting the taxis

1:17:24

to the rule of uber i'm and

1:17:26

having them be able to make the rules for

1:17:28

how the taxi industry works now that

1:17:30

the regulatory framework is essentially

1:17:33

being decimate

1:17:34

right perfect timing even

1:17:36

even though he than women serve go for a sense

1:17:39

they one of the lobbying sense and ,

1:17:41

these disclosures new

1:17:44

didn't really seem to like put a damper on

1:17:46

opposing yeah let's see i'm i'm

1:17:48

like that they will see stuff like what happens mccrone

1:17:50

for example like does this actually and of damaging

1:17:53

political careers will it

1:17:55

hamper matt hancock's are returned

1:17:57

to his conservative frontbenchers ah

1:17:59

i surely hope

1:17:59

dot

1:18:02

i think that the thing to the see i sort of learned

1:18:04

from this whole thing right is just it really

1:18:06

puts into context the extent to which uber

1:18:08

has clumsily an embarrassingly lost

1:18:10

almost every battle it's gotten into well

1:18:12

very handily winning the war yeah

1:18:14

absolutely so

1:18:17

with all of the ending of that siri note ah

1:18:19

i want to say ah paris it has

1:18:21

been an absolute delight to podcast with

1:18:23

you a second time and as many days yeah

1:18:25

thanks so much it's great to come back on the show

1:18:27

great to tie with you many many times

1:18:30

you know a forgive me forgive saying for

1:18:32

saying know if you enjoy talking about uber

1:18:34

if you joy hating on hoover i have a new book

1:18:37

out or that you probably are you know about called

1:18:39

road to nowhere what silicon valley gets wrong about

1:18:41

the future of transportation yeah he said

1:18:43

i consider going bind copy that

1:18:45

would help look if you didn't buy

1:18:47

a copy last time terrorists came on as

1:18:50

i did i can offer or yeah if only

1:18:52

i mean i was or lot i need to buy

1:18:54

it yeah yeah exactly

1:18:57

so i yeah i know so forget

1:18:59

we have a patriotic it is a second

1:19:01

episode every week for five dollars a month

1:19:03

and ah paris has also a podcast

1:19:06

called tech would save us one

1:19:08

time have we a

1:19:10

pack will save us in this machine killed accidentally

1:19:13

put out more or less the same episode the

1:19:15

same day without one week

1:19:17

which is very funny oh code

1:19:19

freethinkers yeah you know what tells

1:19:21

us what to write business as well

1:19:24

as as molly white is pulling the strings

1:19:26

like a marionette snob anyway

1:19:28

ah we'll see you all later friends i

1:19:30

ruined by

1:19:31

hi