0:21

Hello everybody and welcome to the

0:23

Total Soccer Show. My name is Taylor Rockwell

0:25

and it is time to review the second

0:28

best Champions League in the world and what

0:30

a semi-final round it was. PSG punished the

0:32

woodwork and then themselves and their loss to

0:34

Borussia Dortmund, while Real Madrid remained inevitable against

0:37

Bayern Munich with a little help from a

0:39

trigger happy assistant referee. We've got lots to

0:41

break down, a final to preview, a soundproofing

0:45

barrier to hang back up which is why I'm

0:47

still recording with my hands in the air for

0:49

Graham and Joe. Here with me discuss it all

0:51

and unfortunately talk about VAR, our two fine fellows.

0:53

Up first a man who loves a lengthy video

0:55

assistant referee discourse, it's Joe Lowry. Hi Joe. I

0:58

get to go first with James, I get

1:00

to defer to Graham and Taylor on all

1:02

the refereeing conversations. I'm just going to sit

1:04

back and watch as Taylor truly does try

1:06

to piece together his environment that he's recording

1:08

in after he did absolutely knock stuff down

1:10

in his intro. Taylor, that was fantastic. Is

1:12

that a Roma flag that's falling down? Quite

1:15

appropriate for their season at the moment if that's collapsing.

1:18

I don't know how I

1:20

became the Roma defender slash Daniel De

1:22

Rossi lover. Yeah,

1:25

that's how. I'm sorry that some of

1:27

us appreciate a manager who's legendary and has a

1:29

wonderful beard with us is the man who you

1:32

just heard. Much like Gary Neville

1:34

has never shaken Luis Enrique's hand, it's Graham Routhven.

1:36

Hello Graham. Hello Taylor Rotwell. Yes,

1:38

I have never shaken Luis Enrique. Sorry, I thought

1:40

I said Luis Suarez. That's even more dangerous. I've

1:42

got a Luis Suarez bottle opener in my kitchen

1:44

which is where I was going to go with

1:47

that. I do not have a Luis Enrique

1:49

bottle opener. I'm not even sure what that would look like. Skinny,

1:52

I think. Yeah, I don't know if either

1:54

one of you saw that story then. But

1:56

it was Gary Neville talking about when he

1:58

was briefly the Valencia manager and after they

2:00

lost. He went to shake

2:02

Luis Enrique's hand and Luis Enrique ghosted him and

2:04

just walked right by him and refused to stop

2:06

and that was his impression. So that definitely informed

2:09

by Champions League viewing a little bit. Maybe it

2:11

should not have. But Joe,

2:13

we're going to start with, let's go

2:15

with Dortmund PSG and then we'll let

2:17

you just go really at length about

2:19

VAR in the second game. This

2:23

was not what I was really expecting, I

2:25

have to say, nor the bookmakers. I looked

2:27

it up prior to the start of the

2:29

Champions League campaign. Dortmund had the 12th best

2:32

odds to win the whole thing. They were

2:34

sandwiched between the two Milan clubs and at

2:36

first I thought like, oh, that's actually pretty

2:38

high until you realize that it falls off

2:40

pretty precipitously after the first like seven or

2:42

eight teams. Real Madrid, for example,

2:44

had the third best odds. So to have

2:46

Dortmund here is quite a story, I have

2:49

to say. Yeah, I had Dortmund still even

2:51

after their one nil win in a first

2:53

leg back in Germany. I had them as

2:55

my fourth most likely team to advance from

2:57

these two semifinals. When we did that little

2:59

game at the end of the first leg

3:01

episode, I said, you know, it'll be Real

3:03

Madrid, then it'll be PSG, then Bayern Munich

3:05

and then Dortmund and Dortmund advance first of

3:07

all four of those teams. This is an

3:09

incredible story. Like it absolutely is for Borussia

3:12

Dortmund. It's a huge part of why we

3:14

love this sport, a team being able to

3:16

do the improbable and then do it all

3:18

over again. It's a really, really cool thing

3:20

for Dortmund right now, especially in the context

3:23

of guys. Let's think back to last season

3:25

about a year ago and how close Dortmund were

3:27

to winning the Bundesliga title and they

3:29

absolutely bottle it and Bayern Munich end up

3:31

winning the trophy yet again. And of course,

3:33

Leverkusen beat them to it this year, but

3:35

Dortmund were so close to glory last season

3:37

and nobody's going to have them down as

3:39

favorites against Real Madrid in the final ones. But we've

3:42

seen them do this before. They've pulled off 180

3:45

minutes and change of unexpected winning soccer against

3:47

one of the most talented teams in Europe

3:49

in PSG and they have their own curses

3:51

to deal with PSG. But I am very,

3:53

very impressed with how Dortmund played in the

3:55

first 60 minutes of this

3:57

game. And as it turns out, 60 minutes won

4:00

the lead in this match courtesy of a goal

4:02

for Matt Tummels that he absolutely dominates on a

4:04

set piece and then that won the lead

4:06

from the first leg. That was enough for

4:08

Dortmund and congrats to him. Yeah it's

4:11

a story that I find weirdly both uplifting

4:13

and depressing. Uplifting because it's an underdog tale

4:15

right? Nobody ever thought Dortmund would make it

4:17

to the final. Nobody thought they'd get out

4:19

of the group which was they were in

4:21

the group of death if we cast their

4:23

minds back to the group stage. They were

4:25

in that group with AC Milan, PSG and

4:27

Newcastle. It is depressing though

4:29

because it's an underdog tale despite

4:31

Dortmund being Germany's second biggest club and they're a

4:33

club that has won this before and they've made

4:35

the final before and huge support so it maybe

4:38

shouldn't be an underdog story but that's the reality

4:40

of the the elite level of European soccer at

4:42

the moment. I wish the the cabal of clubs

4:44

that you had at the top of the game

4:46

was was broader so you got more of these

4:49

stories but as I say this is the the

4:51

reality. I didn't watch this much

4:53

live because I was at the Dumbarton Tati

4:55

field watching my team getting half relegated on

4:57

Tuesday night but I watched it again in

4:59

full yesterday. I saw a lot of

5:01

the framing on social media before watching it

5:04

so that's kind of the context I went into this

5:06

game. I'd seen a lot of

5:08

the the narrative the reporting and I was expecting

5:10

to see Dortmund get battered for 90 minutes because

5:13

I'd seen the expected goals, I'd seen the numbers

5:15

and of course PSG had shots and chances and

5:17

they hit the woodwork I think five or maybe

5:19

even six times over the two legs. So

5:22

at six times so I can understand

5:24

why that would be the

5:26

framing but I thought Dortmund generally played

5:29

the percentage as well in this game

5:31

against a team like PSG you almost have to

5:33

choose an area to let them build pressure in

5:35

and Dortmund in this game they chose the wide

5:37

areas to be that area so Dembele and Hakimi

5:40

played 28 crosses between them in the

5:42

match and that was reflective of Dortmund's plan.

5:44

The plan was to stay tight between the

5:46

lines and push PSG over to the right

5:48

side away from the middle and away from

5:50

crucially killing Mbappe. Talking of Mbappe I

5:53

thought Dortmund did about as much as they could

5:55

have done to keep him quiet. Ryerson had a

5:57

tremendous game at right back but was also impressed

5:59

by... the work rate of Sancho

6:01

to get back. In the first game we talked a

6:03

lot about his dribbling and on the attacking side

6:06

of the game what he was able to do and there

6:08

were moments from him in this match but primarily it was

6:10

his defensive work rate to help out his fullback that I

6:12

thought was impressive and that's not

6:15

something that has always been associated with Jaden Sancho.

6:17

It was one of the criticisms of him at

6:19

Manchis Knight and then on the break Dortmund had the

6:21

threat of Adeyemi who drew that save from Don Aruma

6:23

in the first half that might have made it one

6:26

now. There were a couple other counter attacking moments. While

6:29

I don't know if you

6:31

could say Dortmund were the stronger team, the

6:34

match was kind of played on their terms and by the

6:36

time we got to the end of the match I was

6:38

more impressed by their performance than

6:40

I expected to be going into watching that

6:43

rerun of the match. Were there

6:45

individual performers that stood out to

6:47

you for that kind of resolute defensive work?

6:49

You mentioned Jaden Sancho there in his defensive

6:52

display which is definitely not a thing he

6:54

was known for in his brief time at

6:56

Manchester United. You

6:58

could pretty much go through the entire Dortmund

7:00

team and I thought they all contributed something

7:02

on the defensive side of the ball. Jaden

7:04

Sancho on the right side, Adeyemi as well

7:06

just so crucial to providing a safety net

7:09

against Hakeemie, did that in the first leg

7:11

and then we have to highlight the two

7:13

central defenders, Matz Hummels who has arguably been

7:17

the best player in the Champions League this season.

7:19

Some of the blocks he made in this game

7:21

his understanding was Schlotterbeck who I thought was very

7:23

impressive and was able to release

7:25

pressure on occasion by bringing the

7:27

ball out from the back which was very important

7:29

but going back to Hummels the anticipation and cutting

7:32

out passes, it was an incredible defensive performance then

7:34

he scored the winner of course for good measure.

7:36

He has a disallowed goal in this game as

7:38

well from another set piece, I mean he's a

7:40

mile offside for that disallowed goal but nonetheless he

7:44

posed the threat. So yeah I

7:46

think you could go through the entire Dortmund team

7:48

and as I say like even Marcel Subitzer

7:51

in central midfield with the kind of mid block

7:53

and the pressure that he was applying and nipping

7:55

the ball away at times, I thought it was

7:57

a very strong collective performance by Darrin. even

8:00

if they allow chances, but against PSG that's

8:03

gonna happen. You cannot have to ride your luck if

8:05

you're... this is not an equal fight, right? This is

8:07

not an even fight between these two teams. You're gonna

8:09

have to do that. Yeah, and the same will be

8:11

true in the final for Baruthu Dortmund. They will need

8:14

some fortune and some really, really good goalkeeping and a

8:16

tight defensive structure. And even if PSG like found a

8:18

second gear, and we'll talk about them shortly, I'm sure,

8:21

even if PSG found a second gear in the last maybe 30-45

8:23

minutes of the game, Dortmund's

8:25

defensive structure, especially in the first half, not only

8:27

was it similar to the first leg, but it

8:29

was maybe even more effective and PSG's

8:32

poor performance played a part in that. But

8:34

Graham, you mentioned them towards the end there,

8:36

Sabitzer. The thing that stuck to

8:38

me most from how Dortmund defended in this game under

8:40

Aiden Teresic, and this is something that we've seen before

8:42

from Dortmund, they did something similar in the first leg,

8:44

they do it a lot in the Bundesliga, is

8:46

they're in this sort of 4-5-1 defensive block. But

8:50

in any given moment when you look up,

8:52

it looks oftentimes like a 4-4-2 with

8:54

one of the two central midfielders, either Sabitzer or

8:56

Brandt, with Emrei Traum behind them. So one of

8:58

the two number 8s pushing forward alongside the number

9:00

9. So at any given moment, it would be

9:03

Julian Brandt next to next to Volkrug or it

9:05

would be Sabitzer. And those two players were really

9:07

leading the press, not always a full box-to-box kind

9:09

of press from Dortmund, but maybe a little bit

9:11

of a press out of the mid block. And

9:13

we would see one of the number 8s go

9:16

and step forward as the center

9:18

back, the opposing center back on their side would

9:20

receive the ball. So let's say the ball goes

9:22

over to the left side and Sabitzer then jumps

9:24

out of his shape to go and pressure the ball,

9:26

PSG building out of a back three. They would go

9:29

and sort of step towards that center back for PSG

9:31

doing a couple of different things. The first thing, making

9:33

it very difficult for that center back to stride forward

9:35

on the ball in possession. So you took that ball

9:38

progression ability away from PSG's back three. And the

9:40

other thing they're doing is blocking off access

9:42

into central midfield. In the first half of this

9:45

game, the number 8s for

9:47

Dortmund did a fantastic job of limiting

9:49

PSG, those simple passes, into Vittina or

9:51

into Zaire Emrei. PSG had very, very

9:53

little joy breaking through in central spaces

9:55

early on in this game. And finally

9:57

in the second half, we started to

9:59

see... a few more of those wide combinations,

10:01

Graham, that you mentioned, that yes, led to

10:03

a lot of crosses coming from Hakeemie and

10:06

Dembele, but also led to like quick little

10:08

out to in sort of looks from PSG

10:10

where they realized, hey, we can't break through

10:12

the middle. Like Savitzer and Brent are doing

10:14

a really good job of denying us those

10:16

passing angles. Let's go out and

10:18

quickly bounce the ball wide to Hakeemie or to

10:20

Dembele or to whoever on the right side, especially

10:22

is where we saw this, and then we'll bounce

10:24

it back inside to the other member of that

10:26

wide duo and then have Vettina or Zaire Emery

10:28

make that third man run in behind Dortmund's

10:31

midfield line. So instead of trying to go through

10:33

the lines, which they couldn't do in the first

10:35

half, PSG finally started going around the lines and

10:37

then into the middle of the shape and almost

10:40

buying themselves 45 minutes at a time.

10:42

And PSG had a few chances in the first half,

10:44

but Dortmund were still very much in this game. I

10:47

think Neil Nell was a relatively fair reflection going into halftime

10:49

buying themselves 45 minutes of a one

10:51

nil lead that then turned into a two nil lead on a set

10:53

piece. Like that is really, really good

10:55

play from Dortmund. They couldn't

10:57

really hold that defensive ability for 90,

11:00

but to do it for as much of this

11:02

game as they did, I do think deserves legitimate credit. I'm

11:05

debating if I really want to ask this question, but I

11:08

think I do in the end. Joe, I

11:10

promise this is not a gotcha question. It is more of

11:12

a like, I would love to hear your approach to this,

11:14

but how do you then rate

11:18

the performance of Enderesic, the manager you

11:20

mentioned there for Dortmund with

11:23

your famous managers do nothing and are

11:25

totally incompetent perspective that is

11:27

definitely paying you into a corner. Word

11:29

for word. Like how much do you

11:31

sort of give credit to the manager

11:33

versus how much of this individuals executing

11:35

a game plan versus individuals doing their

11:37

own thing and sort of making the

11:39

game happen? It seemed to me, and

11:41

I think you guys would agree, but I'm curious if you do

11:44

disagree. It seemed to me that Dortmund had a very clear game

11:46

plan and I just detailed a lot of it. I

11:48

didn't see a lot of freelancing from Dortmund in this game.

11:50

You don't tend to see a lot of freelancing from teams

11:52

that are going to sit back or from players who are

11:54

parts of teams that are going to sit back and defend

11:56

deeper. Like if you're out of shape, the PSG is going

11:58

to kill you. Like they're going to... knife right through you and

12:00

they're gonna score goals. So I don't think it

12:03

was a lot of players doing their own thing in

12:05

this game. And when that doesn't happen and when you

12:07

see a cohesive game plan that is giving a

12:09

more talented team legitimate problems. Yeah, I'm happy to

12:11

give a transition credit. I thought the defensive structure

12:13

was excellent after the players within it deserve a

12:15

lot of credit as well for executing and the

12:18

way that they did for a large chunk of

12:20

this game. But the game plan works from Terrazich

12:22

and I would not be surprised at all given

12:24

that it's been Dormans go to and a lot

12:26

of big games this year. I would not be

12:28

surprised at all if we see something very similar

12:30

in the final against Madrid. Yeah,

12:32

it's worth recapping what a great story Ed

12:34

and Terrazich is as Dormans manager. You know,

12:37

he's up against Luis Enrique who has this

12:39

storied former world class player who has managed

12:41

Barcelona and Spain and now PSG and in

12:44

the semi finals of the Champions League and

12:46

he's got this far after seeing off them.

12:48

It was at let's go right in the

12:50

last round Diego Simeone another former legendary player

12:53

and Terrazich has none of that background. He

12:55

played in the German lower leagues. He ended

12:57

up working as a scout for Dortmund and

12:59

he worked in the youth academy. He went

13:02

to Baschiktas as a Baschiktas as an

13:04

assistant and then West Ham then returns

13:06

to Dortmund was reappoint aids or got

13:09

a job as a Lucien Favre as assistant.

13:11

Then he gets the interim manager job and

13:13

then was reappointed after Marco Rosa left. So none

13:15

of this has been a plan for

13:17

Dortmund. He kind of fell into that job but

13:20

he seems kind of perfect for it. He's

13:22

a Dortmund fan. There's pictures of him in

13:24

the yellow wall 10 years ago and there's

13:26

just something that feels right for

13:29

Dortmund, right? Particularly because it's Dortmund. It's a

13:31

club that has this close connection to

13:33

their fans to have a manager

13:35

who is a fan and yes

13:37

I have voiced and criticisms or

13:39

not so much criticisms but like

13:41

skepticism of Terrazich as a tactician

13:44

and but he got his game plan right

13:46

for this one and his team executed it

13:48

well. So it's a great story that the

13:50

vibes are immaculate. I believe the Gen

13:53

Z or say Joe, did the Gen Z or say

13:55

that? No comment. No comment. Taylor move us forward. I

13:58

believe they don't. I think. This episode

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17:02

Welcome back to The Total Soccer Show where we

17:04

finally succeeded in talking about the team that won

17:07

first, which means, Joe, it's now time to talk

17:09

about the team that lost. Let's

17:11

figure out what went wrong for PSG and

17:13

Luis Enrique, shall we? Yeah, I didn't mind

17:15

the changes for Enrique in this game. The

17:17

biggest change and really the only one that's

17:19

particularly notable here is Gonzalo Ramos coming in

17:21

for Bradley Barcola in the front line and

17:23

with Barcola off, that allowed Killeen Mbappe to

17:25

shift over to the position that I think

17:27

we all sort of agreed. We would have

17:29

liked to see him occupy earlier on in

17:31

the first leg that won the loss in

17:33

Germany for PSG because he wasn't getting a lot

17:35

of touches in that game back in the first

17:38

leg. So in this one, we see Enrique do

17:40

just that and try to shift Mbappe a little

17:42

bit wider with Ramos playing through the middle and

17:44

the idea there is to allow Mbappe to get

17:46

on the ball more. The challenge for

17:49

PSG is he really wasn't doing that in the

17:51

first half and I don't know that this is

17:53

a Killeen Mbappe thing, but I

17:55

mentioned some of the ways that Dortmund frustrated PSG from

17:57

building through the middle. But again, Mbappe is a very

17:59

good game. Mbappe, he's in the left half space in a 3-2-5

18:01

shape, so he's sort of both

18:03

in the middle and out wide, but he

18:06

couldn't quite get on the ball often enough

18:08

in the first half. There's a sequence in

18:10

the 24th minute that I thought was emblematic

18:12

of PSG's troubles, as far as

18:14

Mbappe's role is concerned. PSG have the ball, they're

18:16

in that 3-2-5 shape that they used in

18:18

the first leg, they've used a bunch this season. They're

18:20

in this shape, and PSG are circulating possession from

18:22

the right side, not killing Mbappe's side, to the

18:24

left side, which is killing Mbappe's side. And they're

18:27

sort of trying to overload on the right to

18:29

isolate on the left. That's a concept that we

18:31

see used all across the world. You try to

18:33

isolate your best 1v1 dribbler on the weak side,

18:35

move the ball quickly to that player, and then

18:37

allow them to attack in space against an opposing

18:39

defender 1v1. That's the idea that

18:41

PSG are trying to get to here, but the

18:44

ball circulation is so incredibly slow. The ball never

18:46

even makes it over to Nuno Mendes, who's playing

18:48

as that left-sided center back in the back three,

18:50

so that Mbappe can play off of, oh, excuse

18:52

me, and Nuno Mendes is playing as the left

18:54

wing back in the first half, my bad. It

18:56

was Fabian Ruiz, that's the left-sided center back. My

18:58

apologies. The ball never makes it all the way

19:00

wide to Mendes on the left, and Mbappe sort

19:02

of throws up his hands, he's like, guys, you

19:04

gotta feed me the ball. They were not moving

19:06

it quickly enough from side to side, and so

19:08

after about 20, 25 minutes of this game, Mbappe

19:12

almost gives up on playing in the left half

19:14

space, at least for stretches, and Ruiz

19:16

comes higher into the half space, Mendes stays deeper

19:18

as the left-sided center back, and Mbappe just goes

19:20

wide, because he figures, well, if I can't get

19:22

the ball inside, what if I just go all

19:24

the way wide so the circulation should be easier

19:26

to get me touches? And it

19:28

just didn't really feel like it worked. So I

19:30

didn't have any issue with Mbappe in this position.

19:32

I thought it was the right move from Enrique.

19:35

Just the execution from the players I thought was

19:37

slow, and they didn't seem, guys, to have

19:39

a lot of intensity in the first 45 minutes,

19:42

50 minutes of this game. They just kind

19:44

of sleptwalked through this one at home, and

19:46

I mean, I guess credit dormant as well,

19:48

but frustrating opening to this match for PSG.

19:51

Yeah, and with you, Joe, in that I didn't necessarily

19:54

think starting Ramos in that attack was a

19:56

bad idea, but I was still surprised to

19:59

see him there. Considering he'd only started twice

20:01

in the Champions League so far this season and

20:03

I guess the idea behind him starting was you

20:05

know Pretty simplistic to have a box presence and

20:07

to have a sort of focal point attacking focal

20:09

point that we said and we all agreed They

20:11

lacked in the in the first half. It seems

20:13

like Lucho saw that as well I don't

20:16

I don't think it really worked and having Ramos

20:18

as that focal point or at least The

20:21

balance of the PSG attack wasn't quite right. They didn't

20:23

get their wide players isolated against the full backs often

20:25

enough It didn't feel like they were able to get

20:28

him behind they couldn't get the overlap from Hakeemay working

20:30

and some of that was down to What

20:32

Dortmund were doing and doubling up in those

20:34

areas and sometimes even tripling up in those

20:36

areas But Lucho bringing in Ramos was reflective

20:38

of just how restless he's been picking his

20:40

attack this season He's chopped and changed between

20:43

matches I know that's a managers prerogative to

20:45

do that depending on the opponent But

20:47

it's been in Bapi out left and in Bapi through

20:50

the middle and then in Bapi through the middle and

20:52

in Bapi out wide And here it was Ramos starting

20:54

and sometimes it's been Columuani coming into this team And

20:56

then there's Bradley Barcla who's come into this team in

20:58

the second half of the season He has

21:00

been unhappy with the formula all the way

21:03

through the Champions League and watching this match

21:05

and the first leg as well And I

21:07

just get the sense that in Bapi and

21:09

PSG are kind of ready to move on

21:11

from this union of inconvenience He has obviously

21:13

in Bapi is leaving at the end of

21:15

the season. He hasn't signed a new contract

21:17

He's expected to go to to

21:19

Real Madrid and no point over the two

21:21

games for reasons I can't fully pinpoint as

21:23

kind of the confusing thing, but it never

21:25

really felt like they harnessed in Bapi They

21:27

didn't feel like they were playing to the

21:30

strengths the crossies that they were playing I

21:32

highlighted Dembele and Hakeemie playing was

21:34

it 28 crosses in this match? That's not really killing

21:36

him Bapi's game getting him on the end of crosses.

21:38

It might be Gonzalo Ramos's game He's a big tall

21:40

focal point of a center forward, but if your best

21:43

player is killing him Bapi I don't think that's really

21:45

playing to his strengths and obviously there were still moments

21:47

in this match where the ball is fed out to

21:49

him Bapi and he's got on a got on his

21:51

bike and he was able to drive a Defender

21:55

but you want that happening every few

21:57

minutes if you've got killing him Bapi and your

21:59

team And it just feels to me that

22:02

PSG are already transitioning into life after Mbappe

22:04

has gone. And to be honest, this might

22:06

be a kind of vibes point, an intangible

22:08

point to make. Just looking at his body

22:10

language, you talked about him throwing his arms

22:12

up, Joe. I feel like

22:14

he's ready to move on as well. Yeah,

22:16

I agree. I think, Graham, I am generally

22:18

with you on all those points. I think

22:21

you're probably underselling how difficult it is to

22:23

find space against a block as low as Dormans

22:26

was. And I think we've given Dormans good credit

22:28

for that already. It's really

22:30

hard. It is really, really difficult. And even

22:32

the best teams and the best players, and

22:34

I think the folks who we think maybe

22:36

are the smartest coaches, they still fail at

22:38

it probably more often than not. So I

22:41

do have a lot of sympathy for PSG, especially given,

22:44

we've talked a lot about the first 50,

22:46

50, 60 minutes of this game, the last 30, they

22:48

did turn it on. And they started doing those wide

22:50

combinations that I mentioned of them bouncing the ball inside

22:52

and finding Vittina and Zaire Emery on the right side

22:55

of Central midfield, and they would push forward. And all

22:57

of a sudden, things were ticking. I

22:59

just thought this was a really, really

23:01

sluggish performance from a team that frankly couldn't afford

23:03

one at this moment of the competition. Joe,

23:06

let me ask you this, then. I will try

23:08

to be nuanced. If we are going to say

23:10

the reason that PSG struggled to create chances and

23:12

score goals in this game was maybe

23:14

a little bit of a wastefulness, but was

23:17

if answer number one is Dortmund

23:19

did a really good job defensively. If answer

23:21

number two was Dortmund did a really good

23:23

job defensively, would answer three

23:25

be more likely to be that PSG

23:27

were nervous and afraid to give up

23:30

an opportunity, afraid to give up that

23:32

goal. And so they moved the ball

23:34

more slowly. They were a little bit

23:36

more cautious. Or would you

23:38

be more inclined to follow some of what Graham

23:40

was saying and that Louis Enrique being

23:42

a little bit restless, being a little bit eager to

23:44

chop and change maybe hasn't allowed them to build the

23:46

chemistry and I guess ability to play together in a

23:49

way that allows for a bit more fluidity. If you

23:51

have to choose between those two, which one would you

23:53

go for? I would choose the second, but I

23:55

don't think I would really choose the second if I

23:57

had infinite choices ahead of me. I

24:00

think this is looking ahead of it to the

24:02

realm of dread by mean it game that game

24:05

to me to two after the First leg realm

24:07

of dread moved the ball so slow in the

24:09

first half and it felt like they were doing

24:11

it on purpose Because that game is tied in

24:13

this game PSG need urgency and I just straight-up

24:15

didn't see that in this game these players Yes,

24:18

Grant. I do actually agree with a lot of

24:20

cramps point about hey, maybe chopping and changing so

24:22

much has limited Chemistry and a lot of stuff.

24:24

Well, okay that that's fair You know

24:26

who else does that the team that won the Champions League last year

24:28

in Manchester City and the greatest team of the modern Era, so

24:31

I don't know you you can do it and you can

24:33

succeed. I just didn't see PSG like

24:35

moving the ball with purpose I didn't see them

24:38

solving problems Well in the first half and again

24:40

There was a reality where they score two goals

24:42

three goals in the last 30 minutes of this

24:44

game and we talked about this game Very very

24:46

differently that is soccer like the opportunities were there

24:49

They just came so slowly and I

24:51

honestly don't know and none of us do we're all guessing

24:53

because we're not inside the locker room I don't know how

24:55

much playing to put on Enrique His players didn't seem to

24:57

solve problems very quickly and maybe some of that comes from

24:59

the manager But they're the ones out

25:01

there on the field and I didn't feel like

25:03

it was working even within a logical structure a

25:06

Big factor and we've kind of already

25:08

referenced this with Mbappe PSG is to

25:10

attacking primary attacking difference makers are killing

25:13

him Bappi and it was been dim

25:15

belly both of whom are not

25:17

and Ideally

25:19

the players you want I mean Mbappe is you know can

25:21

pretty much do anything But he is not

25:23

ideally suited to playing against a low defensive block

25:25

He wants space to break in behind and his

25:28

men Dembellis is exactly the same He's he's not

25:30

as good as in Bappi of course But

25:32

you want to give him space and Dortmund just didn't

25:34

really give him any of that I do think it's

25:37

quite funny that Lewis and Ricky coming into this job

25:39

at PSG the criticism of Lewis and Ricky Spain

25:42

manager was that his teams didn't

25:44

take Opportunities often enough and PSG

25:46

signed him Usman Dembelli last summer

25:49

who that has been the criticism of him

25:51

all the way through his career Who was

25:54

very good in the quarterfinal? Less

25:56

so over the course of these two legs. I

25:59

am inclined to go a little bit intangible

26:01

here and just say that in watching

26:03

this game and then watching the way the realm of

26:05

Dred game played out I am obviously coming at this

26:07

from a much lower level amateur perspective,

26:09

but I do think there is something to be

26:11

said for if you are In

26:14

a game and you are getting chances and you are just

26:16

not taking them cleanly you hit the post you hit the

26:18

post again the keeper Makes a save the defender has a

26:21

block you should have scored here There's the one with Zaire

26:23

Emery where he Volleys it into a semi-open

26:25

goal and he hits it off the post and then it

26:27

hits him in his most sensitive bits Area

26:29

that's really just a moment of like I maybe

26:32

this isn't our night And I and

26:34

I have played in those games where it just starts to feel

26:36

like this isn't our night We're not gonna score It's just how

26:38

it is and and anytime you are

26:40

taking a shot being like I'm not going to

26:42

score It is akin to as you are

26:44

preparing to get married thinking a worst-case scenario

26:46

This ends in divorce like you are not

26:48

going into this wholeheartedly committed to the endeavor

26:51

And I think on display that

26:53

evening was the idea that I think PSG did not

26:55

have that collective buy-in in my opinion there was this

26:57

sort of like Resignation

27:00

that it's not going to happen for us and I

27:02

think contrasting that with round Madrid where there is never

27:04

that level of resignation It always feels like there is

27:06

a belief that they can make something happen Or

27:10

that the AR will give them a generous flag

27:12

in the right moment but either way I

27:14

did feel to me Graham to your point like this

27:16

did have an element of This

27:19

isn't working in Bob is out the door Let's rebuild

27:21

and see what happens next season and I do think

27:23

that is a thing that will be happening They

27:26

played like a team that's in a bit of a

27:28

generational transition Which guess what that's exactly

27:30

what they are and that's one of the

27:32

positives out of this Champions League run for

27:34

PSG is they're young Their average age and

27:36

of their squad of their starting 11 And

27:38

I should say and in this game was

27:41

just over 24 which was the youngest

27:43

average age of a Champions League Semifinal team

27:45

since Arsenal 2009 so that is that's a

27:47

long time ago This is a complete reset

27:50

not just of the squad but the culture

27:52

at the club and the general approach They're

27:54

trying to become younger and more French and

27:56

more modern in the way that they play

27:58

so I fully PSG will be back

28:01

at this level soon enough without Mbappe and

28:03

of course that brings its own questions. How

28:05

do you replace him? How do you replace

28:07

the attacking threat that he offers and his

28:09

goals? But for the first time in what

28:11

feels like well really ever in

28:13

the Qatari age I think PSG do have a

28:15

little bit of stability because it doesn't feel like

28:17

I haven't seen any reporting we've been here before

28:19

right with PSG they get knocked out the Champions

28:21

League and in the following day it's briefed the

28:24

manager has been told at the training ground they're getting

28:26

sacked I haven't seen any reporting like that around Lucho

28:28

I think he will be in charge for next season

28:30

I think he will be given a bit of patience

28:32

to get this right. Which to

28:34

me does indicate that Mbappe is probably

28:37

out the door which still does

28:39

not make sense to me from a Real Madrid perspective

28:41

I get all the arguments for it still think it

28:44

doesn't make sense but I do think to your point

28:46

Graham in seasons past it would have been a we're

28:48

building around Mbappe he has a lot of say in

28:50

how things operate if he's frustrated with the manager if

28:53

he's frustrated with the way the season went we are

28:55

going to give that a lot of weight it feels

28:57

to me like with the way this season has gone

28:59

there is more of a we know he's leaving we

29:01

know he's not really happy here we're back in the

29:03

person who wants to be here and wants to kind

29:05

of build the project and move it forward so I

29:08

think there are definitely positives to this campaign

29:10

for Luis Enrique even if at the end

29:12

of the day it is easy

29:15

to think oh it's same old PSG who kind

29:17

of couldn't get it done in the moments even

29:19

with that superior XG but I do think there's

29:21

plenty to build upon and I look forward to

29:23

them signing Kareem Benzema in the summer and then

29:25

me scratching my head at that one that sounds

29:27

good to everybody sounds great or Marcus Rashford that's

29:29

the other name that keeps cropping up in the

29:31

transfer gossip column doesn't make any sense don't sign

29:33

him oh no I would hate that please

29:36

do not sign him for lots and lots

29:38

of money whatever would we do PSG let's

29:41

take one more break and then we'll talk

29:44

about the other match in the Champions League

29:46

semi-finals Real Madrid's two-to-one win over Bayern Munich

29:48

back soon welcome

29:50

back to the Total Soccer show in which I

29:52

have taken a long pause during the break to

29:54

try to figure out the best way to talk

29:56

about this game Joe I'm really confused by it

29:58

because I thought it was a

30:01

really engaging game that was also sort

30:03

of dull at times. Then it has

30:05

like crazy storyline swings with Alfonso Davies

30:07

cutting inside and hitting a banger then

30:09

Madrid find a way to get back

30:11

into it and then Madrid

30:13

take the lead and then it feels like oh

30:15

maybe we're getting extra time and we don't and

30:17

along the way Manuel Noyer has an incredible game

30:19

and then has a howler and so

30:22

it feels like a story that will end

30:24

up at least from a Bayern perspective being

30:26

dominated by the VAR conversation and the disallowed

30:28

goal conversation for Real Madrid it will

30:30

be much more of a hey we're going back to the Champions

30:32

League final I guess it's a Tuesday. Where

30:36

are you on this game? What is your sort

30:38

of how do you feel you will remember this

30:40

one put it that way? This is a moments

30:42

game for me it's the Manuel Noyer saves those

30:44

are all fantastic moments it's the Manuel Noyer blunder

30:46

which is incredible it would be

30:48

incredible in any context the shot coming in from

30:50

Vinicius Jr. it bounces he catches it and then

30:53

it slips out of his hands and Hoseulu comes

30:55

up and scores to get Real Madrid back in

30:57

this game. Like Real Madrid legend

30:59

Hoseulu. Yeah absolutely at this point we're trending

31:01

in that direction like that's an incredibly absurd

31:04

howler from a goalkeeper who was in the

31:06

midst of one of his best ever performances

31:09

and I don't think that's being hyperbolic for

31:11

Manuel Noyer that was an incredible moment it's

31:13

Rudiger's cross excuse me it's

31:15

the ice it's Rudiger's cross that Hoseulu finishes

31:17

in the 92nd minute that was initially ruled

31:20

offside for Hoseulu that was then sent to

31:22

VAR and was correctly given to make it

31:24

2-1 on the evening fourth round aggregate for

31:26

Real Madrid and then it is this absurd

31:29

refereeing blunder that I still don't think is

31:31

being talked about enough where Bayern

31:33

Munich are pushing for a late equalizer they end

31:35

up getting the ball in the box and the

31:37

ball comes down and eventually Mateus Delict thumps it

31:39

into the back of the net it deep deep

31:41

into second half stoppage time and it should have

31:43

been 2-2 but the linesman on the near side

31:45

puts up puts up the flag and the referee

31:47

blows the whistle and at that point VAR cannot

31:49

look because it was very very close I don't

31:51

know whether it was onside or offside I don't

31:53

know I haven't seen a great angle I do

31:55

know for a fact that it was very very

31:57

close and that's the sort of thing that gets

31:59

revealed Like every other time Bayern Munich

32:01

fans should be livid like I would be yeah

32:04

I would be beside myself if I was a

32:06

Bayern fan. Oh Totally agree

32:08

with that and totally agree that it's an absolutely

32:10

gigantic Blunder by first the

32:12

assistant who raises raises the flag when assistants

32:14

have been told for this is not something

32:17

that's been brought in for This season we've

32:19

had like what five seasons of this now

32:21

where assistants are told to let the play

32:23

and play out if it's a Marginal

32:26

call I mean, I do a marginal call they

32:28

did in this game like in moments before they

32:30

let play continue And then the flag would go

32:32

up or then the foul would go It's

32:35

it's a very strange outlier. Sorry to interject,

32:38

but then it's also a blunder by the referee Yeah,

32:40

right because the referee can ignore the flag as

32:42

soon as that flag is raised the referee does

32:44

not have to blow the whistle I know that

32:46

happens like 99% of the time But

32:49

you can allow the play to play out when I do disagree

32:51

Joe a little bit as when you say it would have been

32:53

to Andrei Lunin doesn't even

32:55

like die for it. And I think there's

32:57

a split second of of You

33:00

know stillness from from from rayon madred's as the

33:02

shot is taken. So I don't know if it

33:04

would have been a goal I also agree. I

33:06

don't know if it's if it's yeah, if it's

33:08

on site Like it might have been it might

33:11

have been very very marginally offside It might have

33:13

been his toenails were were offside But the fact

33:15

is that should be allowed to play out and

33:17

we'll never know whether that was on side or

33:20

offside because the Semi-automated system that ua for using

33:22

the champion league wasn't activated because it didn't go

33:24

to var. So yeah If I were

33:26

bar munich, I would be furious and

33:29

it seems like they were furious given their

33:31

post match comments and behavior I'm

33:33

aware that we're now getting into theoretical decisions here,

33:35

but if Play

33:38

had been allowed to continue. So the

33:40

goal theoretically stands when

33:42

it's reviewed Does it matter at

33:44

all that? No, barn music player touches it until

33:46

medic still hits that shot because it's relon mendi

33:48

who ends up heading it sort of clear But

33:51

not really clear and I guess the argument would

33:53

be that the players influenced his actions But even

33:55

there i'm not like so sure that's true. Yeah,

33:57

that's that's the that's the rule in this case

33:59

So we come into question is if a player

34:01

in an offside position Prevents an

34:03

opponent or somehow impedes an opponent from doing their

34:05

action, right? You can't you can't block there, but

34:08

you can't challenge for the ball And I think

34:10

my Zrawi certainly did that on Mendy. That's my

34:12

perspective They're engaged in a challenge like they're both

34:14

going up and in the same area to try

34:16

and win the ball I think

34:18

my opinion and a lot of this is subjective once

34:21

you dive into the laws of the game and try

34:23

to parse them out My opinion is that my Zrawi

34:25

absolutely Impeded what realm of jib were doing and certainly

34:27

tried to make a play and was involved in that

34:30

action And I think is a relevant participant

34:32

in all of this I'm

34:34

still not sure he fully goes up for it. But Joe I

34:37

appreciate your passion to fit I

34:42

can't express how difficult it's been for me to get up

34:44

for this conversation I feel like I'm doing a great job.

34:46

So I appreciate you are Not

34:48

not to drag this discussion out any further

34:50

But like that that discussion you're having is

34:53

kind of beside the point though Right because

34:55

it just should be allowed to play out

34:57

like that's the bit there. There's no mitigation

34:59

for it the I noticed

35:01

Christina uncle on them CBS's broadcast

35:03

they had her on the broadcast coming

35:05

to provide an opinion and She

35:08

normally in the case of a controversial a pit

35:10

of a controversial decision will have something to say

35:12

about the interpretation of the law There's no mitigation

35:15

for this like there's nothing in the law that

35:17

says this is how they should have played out

35:19

So maybe all those things are correct about

35:21

you know him interfering or not interfering But that's

35:23

kind of not the discussion the discussion is the

35:26

flag going up and the play being stopped before

35:28

we could have a look At all those things

35:30

and Joe watching it again in this conversation. You're

35:32

correct. My probably definitely is making a plan on

35:34

the ball is definitely If

35:37

not going up and like fully challenging for it

35:39

Is there impacting what Mindy is doing the Mindy

35:41

partially heads clear? Mueller then comes across and heads

35:43

it to Delic to is I think

35:45

more clearly onside when the ball is played But

35:47

it's obviously not the one going for the challenge

35:49

So it would have come down to Mus rally

35:51

But it doesn't come down to anything in the

35:53

end because the flag goes up because the whistle

35:55

goes and I think especially Cruel for pine Munich

35:57

supporters is that then the official? does

36:00

appear to go over in the moment. It does look

36:02

like he's going to review it. And I thought, oh,

36:04

we're getting extra time. This is definitely a goal. And

36:07

then it's to give the Bayern Munich coaching staff

36:09

a series of yellow cards for complaining because

36:11

we cannot review. So I think after

36:14

the game, maybe it's the Lick who

36:16

says that AR told me he made a mistake.

36:18

Thomas Tuchel reiterates that.

36:20

And I think both of them say, that doesn't really

36:22

do a lot for us at this point. But

36:25

I guess maybe then you could make the argument that, like,

36:28

don't let Real Madrid score. And

36:31

it is still a game in which Real

36:33

Madrid find a way to get the equalizer

36:35

and then get the winner. Graham,

36:38

they just managed to do it. I

36:40

don't know how. I really enjoyed the

36:42

post-match discussion on CBS, where it was

36:46

a lot of the conversations of, like, how does Enchilazi

36:48

do it? How do Real Madrid do it? And it

36:50

kind of was like, they're all very good, but it's insane.

36:53

We don't know how this happens is sort of the takeaway

36:55

that I got from that one. Real

36:57

Madrid are just unbelievable. It's the

36:59

most reliable trick in European football, and yet

37:01

I fall for it every single time. Watching

37:03

this match with three or four minutes left

37:05

to play, I'm thinking to myself,

37:07

kind of smugly, because I kind of want to see

37:09

them, at some point, I want to see them not

37:11

pull it off. So I'm thinking to myself, let's see

37:13

how they wriggle out of this one. And

37:16

then they showed me precisely how they were

37:18

going to wriggle out of this one. I

37:21

am not sure I have any tangible

37:23

explanation for how they keep doing it. Not

37:25

for the fact that they keep winning matches,

37:27

because they've got good players, but how they

37:30

keep doing this thing where, right at the

37:32

moment where you think they are beaten, is

37:34

the moment that they turn it on and

37:36

they win the game. But yeah, something that

37:38

I've mentioned before on the show, most teams

37:41

and players, I think, are restricted by pressure

37:43

in the crunch moments. We've just talked about

37:45

PSG, who historically have that kind of curse

37:47

against them. That's a natural human thing, right?

37:50

Pressure kind of tenses you up. Real Madrid

37:52

are emboldened by that pressure. It seems to

37:54

make them stronger. I

37:56

think the only person I've seen in sport who

37:58

does that... to the same extent as

38:01

Novak Djokovic, Ryan's not on the show so nobody will

38:03

get that reference. But

38:06

it's like the expectation actually helps

38:09

them where compared to PSG or

38:11

even Man City at times in

38:13

the past, they are just an

38:15

anomaly. And I know this match will be

38:17

framed as a smash and grab

38:20

win by Real Madrid because of the way that they scored

38:22

two goals late on. And I agree

38:24

with Joe it was a moments match but I thought they were generally

38:26

the stronger of the two teams. So in

38:28

the end I thought we got a score line that was reflective of the

38:30

match that we watched and if you look at the

38:32

numbers they were all clearly in Real

38:35

Madrid's favour. Yeah I can't remember who I saw tweet

38:37

this and I do sincerely apologise because I tried to

38:39

give credit for that stuff. I saw

38:41

a tweet that was like, well, Mendoza Noir had saved

38:43

basically like a goal of post shot XG over the

38:45

course of the first 80 minutes of this game. So

38:47

I don't know it all ends up evening out on that

38:49

blunder there that Hozaloo taps away. This

38:52

game was just so stupid. Like there's no

38:54

Carlo Enchiladi master plan here. There were some interesting tactical

38:56

things from Madrid where they go to the 4-2-2 in

38:59

possession. Joe Bellingham playing further wide

39:01

on the left than we've seen him in quite

39:03

some time. Further wide than I

39:05

can ever remember seeing him actually for Real Madrid. Not

39:07

that it hasn't happened before. But like yeah

39:09

Enchiladi had a game plan and that's cool.

39:13

Thanks Mendoza Noir for the win. Like that ultimately that's

39:15

what this one comes down to for Real Madrid. It

39:17

absolutely feeds the narrative that Real Madrid are this unstoppable

39:20

like inevitable club because that's

39:22

kind of what they've been

39:25

and they can send Manny a thank you package and

39:27

Bayern Munich a thank you when they're lifting the trophy

39:29

in a month. As

39:31

long as we're quoting Twitter, my

39:33

buddy sent me one from at Kiaren Blue

39:35

is how I think you pronounce it. Tukul

39:38

sent Chupo Mötzing to go on as

39:40

an inverted defensive false nine in a

39:42

low block. Enchiladi told Hozaloo to have

39:44

fun and split the known recipe for

39:47

veal meatballs. That's the difference.

39:49

That's football. I

39:52

think this will be one of the furthering

39:54

of the myths of Carlo Enchiladi as the

39:57

just suave guy who doesn't like have to

39:59

do it. anything but in reality I think

40:01

he does did make smart changes and I

40:03

also think there is a adjustments

40:05

rather and I think there is also a lot

40:08

to be said for having a manager who

40:10

has like presence and calm and awareness in

40:12

the moment and even when Madrid take the

40:14

lead there's a clip that's been doing the

40:16

rounds of all the you know the stadium

40:18

erupts the bench erupts everyone sprints down and

40:20

Carl a bunch of lots he just turns

40:23

around it's like everybody calm down there is

40:25

still game to play and I think that

40:27

is sort of the the veteran wisdom

40:29

that you have to have in those moments to not

40:31

fully lose your cool and get over like swept away

40:34

by the moment and then not be

40:36

able to kind of manage for this final couple

40:38

minutes which is still not thing to say given

40:40

the way it could have ended with by Munich

40:42

potentially getting an equalizer I am absolutely not giving

40:44

enchilada credit for this comeback I died to me

40:47

that is downright absurd staying calm on the sideline

40:49

is like the lowest of low bars for someone

40:51

who's getting paid as much money as he is

40:53

now that this I will it's fine if people

40:55

want to remember this game has a lot of

40:58

managers it is fine if people want to remember

41:00

this game is enchilada game I it will never

41:02

be that way for me this is the manual

41:04

noir blunder game enchilada continues to help put

41:06

good players on the field that is great

41:09

that is important ramadrid dodged

41:11

a bullet in this one a big big

41:13

big bullet I mean

41:15

enchilada changes were better than thomas tuchels changes

41:17

right which you're talking about low bars to

41:20

us maybe the lowest bar of all time

41:23

and the changes took all made within the final

41:25

50 minutes were bad and

41:27

I was nervous about them at the time and

41:29

so was my Twitter timeline so this isn't a

41:31

hindsight thing the change that obviously got the most

41:33

attention was taking came came off with five minutes

41:36

left and I don't think that was wise

41:38

because of course if it goes to extra

41:40

time which is a distinct possibility given how much pressure

41:42

and ramadrid having at that point of the game then

41:44

you need to reset to try and win a game

41:46

again and you want hurricane involved

41:49

obviously but right ramadrid won

41:51

it in regulation time time so there wasn't

41:53

really the consequence from that change that I

41:55

think a lot of people may be anticipated

41:57

what was consequential though was taking off Jamal

41:59

moussaille because he was for

42:01

a lot of this match Bayern's oxygen getting

42:04

them on the counter the number of times

42:06

he would nip the ball away from someone

42:08

in central midfield for Real Madrid and then

42:10

burst 20 yards up the pitch and just

42:12

relieve a little bit of the of that

42:14

pressure and I thought that was important for

42:16

Bayern just getting through that this game you

42:19

know just having that little bit of relief

42:21

nobody else was doing that for them so

42:23

taking him off was a mistake and then

42:25

going to the back five with Kim coming

42:27

on it pushed Bayern

42:29

too deep and gave Real Madrid 25

42:31

minutes once you factor in stoppage time there was

42:34

10 minutes of stoppage time in this game to

42:36

build the pressure and keep turning the screw and

42:38

that's what they did and it just

42:40

kind of disrupted Bayern in that moment and

42:42

in my opinion so I understand there's a

42:44

game state thing where naturally you're going to

42:46

go a little bit deeper but the changes

42:49

that took home made it didn't feel like

42:51

anyone was very comfortable but besides anything else

42:53

putting Kim and Jay into that team in

42:55

that situation given the performance he had last

42:57

week on an individual basis I'm just not

42:59

I would not have done that and it

43:01

did not pan out well for Bayern but

43:04

manual noir was really the factor that cracked open

43:06

the game for Real he does bring it

43:08

off onto Davies for Sergio Gannabra who gets hurt in the

43:10

first half and it's Davies who scores the goal so if

43:13

it had gone a different way he's a genius he

43:15

made the right change but that is that is not

43:17

how this one go that way with

43:20

the weak foot as well unbelievable yeah second

43:22

best left back in CONCACAF there you go Joe

43:26

while we're slandering people anything you want to

43:28

say about Eric Dyer no

43:31

not really other than that that moment where

43:33

so again I was watching this game with

43:35

like Norwegian commentary that

43:37

moment in the first half that leads to

43:40

the noir double save what happened

43:42

because it's Dyer who like clears the ball up

43:44

the sidelines and Rudiger goes to chase it down

43:46

it's in play and then all of a sudden

43:48

the ball there's another ball in play in the

43:50

final third and Rudiger just takes us out of

43:52

play did Dyer's clearance like bend out and then

43:54

come back in I does anybody know what happened

43:56

there does anybody even know the moment I'm talking

43:58

about Yeah, I know

44:00

that. Yeah. So the camera kind of I assume

44:02

it's the same feed. Yeah, the camera fixed on

44:04

the ball for a split. Yeah. And

44:07

so I presume that clearance has just bounced back onto

44:09

the pitch and then with the multi ball system, they've

44:11

just thrown another one on. Right. Throwing quickly. Emma Hayes

44:13

is working right. OK, gotcha. Yeah,

44:15

I don't understand. No, maybe it's your best friend.

44:18

I can't remember how that whole incident went down.

44:20

That was bizarre. I thought

44:22

Bayern did a fairly good job of controlling

44:24

stretches of this game. Real Madrid had the

44:26

chances and Neuer did bail Bayern out over

44:28

and over again in the early stages of

44:30

the match leading up to the 80th minute or so. And

44:33

Dyer, I thought was a functional part of that. Real Madrid,

44:35

I said it in the last segment, I think they

44:37

moved the ball so slowly. Like this game really

44:39

struggled for tempo. Bayern were sitting in that 4-4-2

44:42

mid block. They were going to press

44:44

a little bit, but little is carrying a lot

44:46

of load in that sentence for me. Like they

44:48

were there to compress space and Real Madrid were

44:50

not in a hurry. They were very, very patient.

44:52

They were unbothered by basically

44:54

everything that was happening in this game other

44:56

than the occasional Bayern transition attack. And

44:59

so eventually when the scales have to tip

45:01

because Bayern Munich score a nice goal in

45:03

transition, then Real Madrid start to wake up

45:05

and really actually play a little bit and

45:07

eventually find the back of the net. Bayern's defensive

45:09

shape I thought was fine, but it's not the thing I'm going

45:11

to remember in this game. Yeah, I

45:14

thought there were some things that Bayern did well

45:16

along the same lines, defensive lines. Joe, I thought

45:18

the way that Tuchel set them up in the

45:20

mid block, they were kind of doing quite similar

45:22

to what Dortmund did against PSG, were trying to

45:24

cut off the central passing lanes and force the

45:26

ball out wide. I thought that was generally effective.

45:28

And of course that comes with its own dangers

45:30

given the wide threats that Real Madrid have. But

45:33

I don't think Bellingham had a huge influence

45:36

on the match. And I think the biggest benefit

45:38

was it stopped Real Madrid from doing that slingshot

45:41

sequence that they like to do so much with

45:43

getting vanishes and Rodrigo running in behind.

45:45

That didn't happen very often. But I

45:48

need to know everything about the slingshot sequence. What is

45:50

this? Please tell me more. So

45:53

it's a pass from, it normally comes from

45:55

the left back position from usually Kamevinka. He

45:58

put passes centrally. It's then

46:00

laid off by normally vanishes

46:02

or Rodrigo who immediately spin

46:05

and behind defensive line And

46:07

then the pass comes from cross over the top into

46:09

the space realm Just do that all the sort of

46:12

like the little bit like the goal that vanishes scored

46:14

in the first leg where it is Tony cross on

46:16

the ball and Vinny kind of doubles back and then

46:18

runs in behind like that Yes, fling shot where you

46:21

draw the defender in and then running behind is that

46:23

kind of what what you're describing? Yeah,

46:25

absolutely There's a double movement from the from the runner

46:27

and then of course they have Tony cross or or

46:29

Modric or whoever who are among The best kind of

46:31

like football quarterbacks to play that pass of the top.

46:34

It's kind of unstoppable teams I

46:36

I presume teams know they're gonna do it But the

46:38

way that real ed excuse me by Munich stopped it

46:40

for generally at least for the first kind of like

46:42

80 minutes of this Game was they were cutting off

46:44

that pass from the left back or the right back

46:46

position into the center of the pitch cutting off Those

46:49

central passing lanes, so I thought they did a relatively

46:51

good job of that on the attacking side though I

46:53

found it very frustrating to watch because Byron did have

46:56

decent openings not Opportunities

46:58

that that's a difference there decent openings on

47:00

the break They would have those counter attack

47:02

moments where maybe moussaille against the motoring But

47:04

their final ball time and time again was poor

47:06

their decision-making wasn't up too much It was

47:08

a very good example of this when Byron

47:11

or one mill up in this game and they

47:13

had a 3v2 and it's Thomas Miller it was

47:15

actually his first involvement after coming on and Right

47:18

at the moment where you're looking for the pass into

47:20

the feet or Kate of Canis just slightly ahead of

47:22

came I can ideally he plays the pass behind him

47:25

and the opportunity disappears the momentum is gone Can has

47:27

to double back a little bit and there were there

47:29

are a lot of those moments I say a lot

47:31

there were probably like two or three of those moments

47:33

But a way to Real Madrid and the Baron about

47:35

given that what's at stake You're only gonna get two

47:38

or three of those moments and they did not capitalize

47:40

on them I did want to just

47:42

take one moment to praise The

47:44

Harry Kane volley with his back to goal that

47:46

fully made me think it was a FIFA glitch

47:48

That was a lovely attacking moment on an individual

47:50

level. I don't know how he hits it this

47:53

in the 28th minute He hits it on frame

47:55

off of a deflection. It's a great save by

47:57

looning But that one really

47:59

just like kind of defied physics for me, but also

48:01

shows you that Hurricane is quite good in front of goal, but

48:03

maybe not good enough on the day. Yes, Graham. And

48:06

also the pass from Kane out to Davis

48:08

for the bar-minute goal. I know it's an

48:10

absolute bullet of a shot, a laser from

48:12

Davis, so it's not like he puts it

48:14

on a plate for Alphonso Davis or anything,

48:16

but it's the pass that creates the opportunity

48:19

where he's hardly even

48:21

facing the player he's passing to. He's kind

48:23

of off balance, and to put that weight

48:25

on it into space, that's

48:27

the kind of pass that makes Hurricane so special, and it's

48:29

one of the reasons that I thought he was

48:31

gonna be perfect for badminton. In a weird way,

48:33

this is where assessing their season is really weird.

48:36

He has been perfect for them, but

48:39

yeah, this might have been the match I started

48:41

to feel a little bit sorry for Hurricane. Because

48:43

he's off the pitch and he's got no control

48:45

over it, and the whole thing just collapses with

48:47

him watching on the bench, even as

48:49

a Scott, I have to admit, I

48:52

did feel a pang of disappointment on his behalf

48:54

last night. No, you didn't. I feel like you

48:56

were just saying you did, because you feel like

48:58

you need to. No, I did. I did

49:00

genuinely like it. It's the way that he just slumps.

49:02

He just knows. And as I say, it's because he's

49:04

off the pitch, there's nothing he can do about it,

49:07

and he's kind of been let down in that moment. So yeah,

49:09

I did feel a bit sorry for him, but

49:12

it will subside that feeling by the time the

49:14

Euros start. I can guarantee you that. I

49:16

had a feeling it might. Very briefly,

49:18

gentlemen, then, let's look at the final

49:20

that we have, which I think definitely

49:22

Joe, I think you mentioned earlier,

49:24

Madraud very much the favorites. I

49:26

think the percentage betting odds I saw

49:29

were like, Ramadrat are 61% favorites to win in regulation,

49:32

and then I think it's like 22% to finish draw

49:37

at the end of regulation. So

49:39

not a huge number backing Bruce

49:41

the Adortment. Graham, are you

49:43

backing Adortment? I was just gonna

49:45

jump in to say, am I the only one

49:47

who can't quite believe how Jude Bellingham's career is

49:49

panning out? It's like a movie at this point.

49:51

Do you remember FIFA had that Alex Hunter character

49:53

a few years ago, where the whole thing was

49:55

like this, like avatar

49:58

character who you follow through the. career

50:00

and they have this perfect career. That's

50:02

Jude Bellingham because for him to reach

50:04

his first champs league final and for

50:06

it to be at Wembley against Borussia

50:08

Dortmund, given the fact he's already moved

50:10

to Realmjet, become a superstar in a

50:12

season, broken every imaginable record for a

50:14

midfielder. It's just ridiculous at this point.

50:16

Where's this going to end? We're

50:18

the 90 second winner, 90 second minute winner in

50:20

the championship league final because those are the kinds

50:23

of goals that he scored. Later arriving run for

50:25

midfield, all that good stuff. This really does feel

50:27

like... If we do that, the third movie means

50:29

England win the Euros, right? Ooh, uh-oh. If

50:31

this is the first movie in this

50:33

project, real quick as a trio while

50:35

Ryan's not here. Yeah, right?

50:37

But if we're following

50:39

the goal movie trilogy, which I

50:41

think stops having the same

50:44

character at one point, but like... I never thought it's a

50:46

goal three. Nor should you, from

50:48

what I understand. But I mean, the

50:50

first one is him breaking through at

50:52

the smaller but still very significant club. The

50:54

second one is moving to Realmjet and having

50:56

success. I think the third one is

50:59

having success at the World Cup. So in this case,

51:01

it's the Euros. Here we go. Jude Bellingham in England

51:03

winning the Euros. So sorry, can we quickly write a

51:05

goal four that involves the US beating Jude Bellingham in

51:07

the final of the World Cup? Because that's why I

51:09

want all this to end very clearly and I'm not

51:11

a fan of all the England propaganda that we're doing

51:13

right now. As far as the final

51:15

goes, Realmjet, obvious favorites. Jude Bellingham is going to be

51:17

impactful, even though I totally agree with Graham. I don't

51:20

think he was, especially in this game. And I

51:22

think some of that goes down to where? Carlo

51:24

Ancelotti put him on the field. But heaven forbid

51:26

I disparage Carlo Ancelotti. And anyway, I

51:29

generally think, did you

51:31

want a trophy to be just Carlo Ancelotti?

51:33

Oh yeah. I'm still very, very on board

51:35

with Carlo Ancelotti in the Stromatrids squad. Just

51:38

maybe not quite for the myth that we're

51:40

turning all these coaches into. I

51:43

think Dormin will have to sit back into this four or

51:45

five one sort of the same shape that we've seen them

51:47

use over and over again. But Jitter likely going to control

51:50

the ball. Tony Croce is going to drop deep into that

51:52

sort of left sided pseudo center back full

51:54

back spot like he does all the time

51:56

from Madrid. They're going to try to orchestrate

51:58

play. They're going to try to find Bellingham.

52:00

running into the box late on and Dortmund

52:02

are gonna rely on their strong defensive ability

52:04

to keep the game level and rely

52:07

on Sancho and Eriemi to pose threats quickly on

52:09

the break and they are well suited to do

52:11

that as a team. The challenge is exactly what

52:13

Graham said earlier. This is not a fair fight.

52:15

These are two teams at different levels with different

52:17

quality and Dortmund is gonna have a really hard

52:19

time bridging that gap. Yeah,

52:22

I mean Dortmund are just gonna try and do it

52:24

again, right? They're gonna largely try and recycle the game

52:26

plan they use against PSG. They'll try and stop Real

52:28

Madrid play through the middle but also stop the ball

52:30

going to the left side where Venetius wants to isolate

52:32

his full back and then on the counter as you

52:34

said, it'll be Adeyemi. It'll be Sancho

52:36

and little dribbly moments to try and exploit the

52:39

space behind Carba Hal

52:41

that'll be for Adeyemi. Of course on the

52:43

other side, Camavingo or Mende depending on who

52:45

starts there and try and get whomos activated

52:47

from set PC and have luck on

52:49

your side. Do those things and Dortmund

52:51

have a chance. If they don't do a good

52:53

number of those things then Real Madrid will flatten

52:56

them. And on that note, Graham, a thing that

52:58

I was expecting more of from Bayern was sort

53:00

of frustrating Real Madrid

53:02

on those corners on those set pieces. We've seen

53:04

teams sort of surround Loon in or put people

53:06

in his way with the idea that maybe he's

53:08

not the most comfortable coming for crosses. He's not

53:10

the most comfortable coming off of his line. I

53:13

don't feel like Bayern really disrupted him or

53:15

made life difficult. That does feel like I

53:17

think Dortmund are more than capable of doing

53:19

and exploiting set piece opportunities. That does feel

53:21

like the way this one's going to play

53:24

out. So with

53:26

that said it does not feel as much

53:28

of a foregone conclusion as I think a lot of people

53:31

might be expecting it to be. Well, I

53:33

thought we're gonna go in a slightly different direction.

53:35

Do you feel better about Dortmund's chances now that

53:37

playing Real Madrid? Than had

53:39

it been Bayern Munich. Even though Real Madrid are

53:41

a better team I think it's fair to say

53:43

at that point than Bayern Munich because we've seen

53:46

we've seen this story before with Bayern Munich and Dortmund

53:49

I know Bayern Munich have not been the same this

53:51

season but I don't know just in an intangible sense

53:53

I feel better about Dortmund's chances now that they're not

53:55

going to be playing Bayern Munich in that final. It's

53:58

not logical I've just seen it too many times. We've

54:00

seen it over and over again every time we get

54:02

hyped for this is the year Dortmund are gonna do

54:04

it They're gonna win the title. They're gonna see

54:07

this out They're gonna hold off Bayern they lose

54:09

3-0 to Bayern in an important game either in

54:11

the deeply polka or in the league and This

54:13

fully felt to me like another opportunity for that to occur

54:15

that Dortmund have this Fairy tale run

54:17

and I saw people saying like oh you you

54:19

gotta wonder what Dortmund are thinking here They are

54:22

prepared to play a team that they've already faced

54:24

this season that they have so much familiarity with

54:26

That they know how to navigate and now they're coming

54:29

up against this Champions League juggernaut and for me I

54:31

think like no they're coming up against the team that

54:33

no one expects them to beat Versus the team that

54:35

the entire building would have been like this is the

54:37

time. This is their year. This is their moment It's

54:39

a Bayern Munich who haven't been very good. I fully

54:42

think that Even if

54:44

that is not the way it will be perceived I

54:46

think it's probably better for Dortmund overall or it makes

54:48

for a more Competitive game in my

54:50

mind that they're facing around Madrid I

54:52

look forward to Madrid scoring in the first minute

54:55

and then media feeling very foolish for making this

54:57

argument Yeah, that'll probably

54:59

be me as well. Oh Bayern Munich We're actually

55:01

quite a bit worse than this Real Madrid team

55:03

Yeah, Dortmund would have had a better chance against

55:05

them. I'm with you right now the intangible stuff

55:07

makes me feel They've got a better chance and

55:09

then Joe the person who had them fourth most

55:11

likely to progress I'm assuming you had them

55:14

as favorites. Oh, absolutely. I'm betting all of

55:16

Ryan Bailey's money on winning

55:18

the Champions League final Well,

55:20

I suspect we will talk more about

55:22

that game that matchup as it looms

55:25

closer, but for now gentlemen Thank you both very

55:27

much for breaking down All

55:30

that was this past week Graham Rusman lovely analysis

55:32

by you sir And thank you for your wearing

55:34

the full three-piece suit to honor Carlo and Sir

55:36

Lottie even in the pillow for it nicely done.

55:38

I I thought

55:40

bringing the cigar was a nice touch to be

55:42

really was just trying not to touch the blanket

55:44

above your head As poorly as

55:47

my introduction went and Joe Lowry mr.

55:49

Thursday night Thank you for talking about

55:51

games that happened on Tuesday and Wednesday

55:53

nights. I appreciate you Bucking

55:55

tradition to be here with us today. You know Taylor. I

55:57

do what I can. I'm just proud of you for ending

55:59

this show landing it in a much cleaner way than Manuel

56:02

Noyer did for Byron. We

56:06

managed to get on this without a ski joke as well, so good job,

56:08

I feel like Ryan would have found a way to put that one in.

56:10

Yeah. Listeners, thanks so much for listening.

56:13

We'll talk to you tomorrow.