0:00

This is The Guardian. Today,

0:11

help protests at one university against

0:13

the war in Gaza became a

0:15

national student movement. Today

0:26

in Focus is supported by

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acres to reach its goal. You

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can help. Donate online

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at rainforesttrust.org. There

1:07

are no universities still running in Gaza. They

1:27

were once 12. Since

1:29

October 7, reportedly every single

1:31

one has been damaged. 85%

1:34

of Gaza's population is displaced, thousands

1:37

of students and teachers killed. The

1:40

war there continues. But

1:43

this week, much of the

1:45

world's attention was on campuses a long

1:47

way away in America, and

1:50

especially New York's prestigious

1:52

Columbia University. It's

1:56

a beautiful campus, obviously. It's an Ivy League

1:58

University. It's old history. historic

2:00

buildings, cherry blossoms line the

2:02

walkway of the university. Erom

2:05

Salaam is a journalist with Guardian US.

2:08

Usually kids are just sitting

2:10

on the lawn, they're playing Frisbee, they're doing

2:12

what college kids do. In

2:15

this instance though, the lawn was covered

2:17

with tents from the encampment protest

2:19

that's been going on since last

2:22

week. These

2:24

young protesters have been condemned by

2:26

some Democrats, many Republicans.

2:29

They've been compared to the Nazis, which

2:31

did not square with what Erom saw

2:33

when she was there. At

2:36

the protest, students were sharing

2:38

in a collective seder in

2:41

honour of their fellow Jewish students. They

2:44

were singing songs and they were

2:46

exchanging food and bottles of water.

2:49

They were really, really well

2:51

organised. This

2:54

protest camp and Columbia's response to

2:56

it has become national news in

2:58

America this week. Police

3:01

have forcibly tried to remove

3:03

protesters from campuses in Texas,

3:05

in California. Lessons at

3:07

Columbia have been moved online for the rest

3:09

of the semester. Some Jewish

3:11

students say the protests make them

3:14

feel unsafe, but they veer into

3:16

anti-Semitism. In

3:23

light of a real war in

3:25

Gaza, where universities are being hit

3:27

by missiles and bombs, it's

3:29

fair to think this is all

3:32

pretty minor. It doesn't mean much. But

3:35

the stakes are high. Because

3:37

what's really being fought over between the

3:39

students and those who oppose them might

3:42

not just be what kind of speech

3:44

is permitted on campuses in 2024. Lurking

3:49

underneath it might be a bigger

3:52

fight over the future of the

3:54

US relationship with Israel. From

3:57

The Guardian, I'm Michael Cerf here. Today,

3:59

in focus the national student

4:02

movement for Palestine and

4:04

the Eram,

4:13

what are these protests actually about?

4:16

These protests, specifically at

4:18

Columbia and universities in surrounding

4:20

areas like Yale and

4:22

Princeton and others, they

4:25

are about calling for a ceasefire, first

4:27

and foremost, in Gaza. But

4:29

more importantly, they are calling for

4:31

their own universities to divest their

4:33

ties in real time. And

4:36

the occupation in Palestine. And today

4:38

we're calling for a new divestment

4:40

from the companies that are

4:42

currently that are

4:44

complicit active, complicit agents

4:46

in the apartheid and

4:49

colonization of Palestine. So

4:51

what kinds of ties are we talking about? What

4:54

kind of ties does a university like Columbia have

4:56

with the state of Israel? So

4:58

that's actually a great question. And that's something students

5:00

are fighting to get an

5:02

answer for, because there's not a lot

5:05

of transparency about the financial

5:07

investments Columbia has in general.

5:10

But Yale, for example, they

5:12

happen to know specifically that their

5:15

university invests billions in Lockheed Martin,

5:18

a weapons manufacturing company that

5:20

supplies Israel with fighter jets. So

5:23

those students there are protesting that

5:25

specific investment. Okay,

5:28

so those students, after months of

5:30

calling for divestment from Israel, set

5:32

up tents last Wednesday on the main lawn

5:34

of the Columbia campus. So

5:37

far, nothing really unusual about this story. But

5:40

then the Columbia president, Manu Shafik,

5:42

makes a decision that causes this

5:44

whole thing to explode. What happens?

5:48

Right. So Manu Shafik took a

5:51

very drastic measure. And that's not even my

5:53

own words. These are the

5:55

words of faculty members I've spoken with, to

5:58

allow NYPD onto the campus. campus.

6:01

So New York police stormed

6:03

the campus and arrest many

6:05

of these protesters and

6:07

these students are also suspended. One

6:09

professor I spoke with called it

6:12

an overreaction. You

6:15

know, there was also a faculty-led

6:17

walkout in support of the students.

6:20

And the faculty who joined this

6:22

walkout, they actually, many of them,

6:24

vehemently disagree with the position of

6:26

the protesters. But you have NYPD

6:28

on campus with such a significant

6:30

move that, you

6:32

know, even people of differing perspectives, student

6:35

support of each other and in

6:38

support of the students who they believe have

6:40

the right to peacefully protest and attend classes.

6:42

And demand the following, an

6:45

immediate apology and amnesty for

6:48

all students who have been

6:50

suspended and clearing of their

6:52

disintering methods. What

6:54

were they actually arrested for? What crime

6:56

had they committed? It's not

6:58

clear. I've spoken with protesters, one

7:01

of whom was actually arrested and she wasn't

7:04

made aware of what exactly she was doing

7:06

wrong because, you know, she was telling me

7:09

that she was peacefully protesting. In fact,

7:11

they were sitting in a circle in

7:13

the encampment on the lawn singing. And

7:17

this happened in the middle of the afternoon, so over a

7:19

thousand students poured out of classes witnessed

7:22

this mass arrest happening to their

7:24

fellow students who were essentially sitting and chanting and

7:26

singing. Faculty and staff were arrested as well.

7:28

And I think

7:31

it was a really galvanizing moment for the students who've

7:33

been on the campus, which has already been extremely

7:35

active and follows in the list. There were

7:37

more than a hundred students arrested on that

7:40

Thursday. They've all since been released without

7:42

charge. But for those of us

7:44

who aren't familiar with American universities, how

7:46

unusual is it to have

7:48

the NYPD enter campus,

7:50

handcuff students, lead them away?

7:53

How big a deal is

7:55

that? It's a

7:57

pretty dramatic scene. I mean, kids are getting

7:59

arrested. students are, you know, zip

8:01

tied or handcuffed, what have you, by

8:04

this police force. And

8:06

Bassam Kewaja, who's a lecturer at

8:09

Columbia Law School, he specifically spoke

8:11

to how, you

8:13

know, these students were suspended without any kind

8:15

of due process and the fact that these

8:17

students were evicted from their dorm rooms with

8:20

hardly any notice. And

8:22

so really, collected

8:25

outrage the way that the

8:27

school administration has handled students

8:29

who are essentially protesting. Yeah.

8:31

I also spoke with another professor,

8:33

Helen Benedict, who teaches at the journalism

8:36

school. And she

8:38

told me that some of her colleagues

8:40

were taking in some of these evicted

8:42

students who are protesting. And

8:44

so it was a really dramatic

8:47

scene. And as we can

8:49

see, it's caught international attention. Margaret

9:04

Sullivan, you're a guardian columnist and you're

9:07

on staff at the Columbia journalism school.

9:10

I think for lots of people, it's perplexing

9:12

that a protest at a university in New

9:14

York has become a national

9:16

issue in the US. And I want

9:18

your help to untangle why that is.

9:21

What did we start to see

9:23

happen at universities across the US

9:25

in the wake of Hamas's attack

9:27

on October 7 last year and

9:29

Israel's response in Gaza? Well,

9:33

students have really become politically involved

9:35

in a way that in some

9:37

cases they never have been before.

9:40

On the Columbia campus for

9:42

several months now, there have

9:44

been students who have engaged

9:47

in demonstrations, called for a

9:49

ceasefire, expressed their views one way

9:51

or the other. We really want the university

9:54

to understand that divestment must happen and it

9:56

must happen ASAP. We want the university

9:58

to at the very least call for a ceasefire. and

10:00

acknowledge its complicity in the occupation of

10:02

the South and Palestinian people. I'm Jewish,

10:05

I'm Israeli, my mother's Israeli, I

10:07

have family there. And

10:09

honestly, we're in pain. Our community

10:11

was attacked. All of the Muslim people who I know who

10:14

I'm close with have reached out to ask, I'm okay, this

10:16

is what my family is doing. And

10:18

just, when it becomes impersonal, people feel

10:20

much more comfortable calling for violence. And

10:22

I think that's not good. It's

10:24

not at all surprising to hear chants

10:26

or drum beats or things like

10:29

that. But just in the

10:31

past few days, it's gotten

10:33

much louder, particularly because students

10:35

have set up an

10:38

encampment right on the lawn

10:40

of campus. Margaret, you're on

10:42

staff at Columbia alongside writing for The

10:45

Guardian. How have you noticed

10:47

this conflict has changed the atmosphere

10:49

on campus and in the classroom?

10:51

It's top of mind for a lot of students.

10:54

I'm a little too young to have been a college

10:57

student during the Vietnam era, but

10:59

I think it has some of the

11:01

flavor of that. It's

11:03

been bought out by the military. 50%

11:06

of the research down here at the university depends on the sense

11:08

of money. And we can see when we look

11:10

at the new buildings that are going up, we

11:13

can tell how much this university

11:15

has helped into servicing the corporation

11:17

and helped into servicing the war

11:19

machine. Students

11:22

have a kind of idealistic

11:24

approach to this where they feel like they

11:26

can make a difference by protesting. Have

11:29

you seen or heard things

11:31

in your time on the campus that

11:34

do strike you as anti-Semitic or at

11:36

least uncomfortably close to

11:38

it? There are things being

11:40

shouted that are very anti-Israel.

11:44

I think it is important to

11:46

draw a distinction between criticizing the

11:48

policies and the leadership of Israel

11:51

and being anti-Semitic. They aren't the same

11:54

thing. So I certainly

11:56

have seen a lot that's anti-Israel. Most

11:59

of what I've seen is anti-Israel. People calling for

12:01

a ceasefire but I have

12:03

not directly observed anti semitic

12:05

behavior. Can. We do some

12:07

surveys of Jewish students that many

12:09

of them say they sealed. It

12:11

has been an increase in anti

12:13

semitism since October Seven, but do

12:15

you see any difference between the

12:17

kinds of things being censored on

12:19

the Columbia campus by students there

12:21

and the things being done and

12:23

said at those protests that it

12:25

just outside? Because when you try

12:27

to understand why some Jewish students

12:29

might be feeling unsafe, Absolutely.

12:32

There's a very big difference between

12:34

what's going on on campus, which

12:36

has been. relatively. Restrained.

12:39

I mean, even the New

12:41

York City Police Department in

12:43

making these arrests characterized the

12:45

protesters as peaceful. There is,

12:47

however, just outside the gates

12:49

of Columbia on Broadway and

12:51

on Amsterdam Avenue. so much

12:53

more. very ill and protests

12:56

much. More anti Israel

12:58

Much more offensive. In

13:07

some cases, cheering on Hamas and

13:09

I think it's important not to

13:12

conflate the to because they are

13:14

quite different and I think that

13:16

Columbia has done. A pretty

13:18

good job and is working on

13:20

trying to make sure that those

13:22

who are involved in this and

13:24

camp meant for in any demonstrations

13:26

on campus are indeed Columbia Do.

13:39

That student activism Columbia University's across

13:41

Us and also drawn an extraordinary

13:43

amount of attention from the media,

13:45

from political leaders and from business

13:48

leaders. Why do you see Sadie

13:50

is why do you think so

13:52

many people so animated about things

13:54

going on at universities. There.

13:57

Are all kinds of reasons for

14:00

that. Coming from different direction with

14:02

students there is less of an

14:04

immediate connection with the holocaust. With

14:06

World War Two, they tend to

14:08

see Israel. Some of the student

14:11

and want to be too sweeping

14:13

here but some of them tend

14:15

to see Israel as a bully.

14:18

And. Not as a very.

14:20

Vulnerable. Country. That needs.

14:23

American. Protection. And say

14:25

the thinking on that has changed

14:27

in a generational way. And. That

14:29

generational divide seems to be pretty vast.

14:32

Meet you Going On the one hand,

14:34

students who saw the Israel as you

14:36

say is the bully is the aggressive

14:38

party here and then and American establishments.

14:41

The as we've seen over the past

14:43

few months doesn't see it that way.

14:45

sees that the Us has kind of

14:48

special relationship, a special Missions protect Israel.

14:51

That's right, and we see that

14:53

with President Biden, who is probably

14:55

an interesting case study here because

14:57

he has a man in his

14:59

eighties. He has a very visceral

15:02

connection with what happened in World

15:04

War Two and a very strong

15:06

relationship with Israel for. Seventy

15:08

five years, Zola susie

15:10

only guarantor skirted Jewish

15:12

people around the world.

15:16

Through the trousers affairs could never happen

15:18

again. Let there

15:20

be no doubt, The

15:22

United States has Israel's back. Will

15:25

make sure the Jewish and democratic

15:27

senators you can defend itself today

15:29

tomorrow as we always have. Simple.

15:33

As that. Many politicians

15:35

of his era. Feel.

15:38

That way not just because they're

15:40

making political points, but they feel

15:42

it deeply and emotionally. And that

15:44

is just something that from many

15:46

students who are twenty years older,

15:48

nineteen years old. It just doesn't

15:51

mean as much to them. It's

15:53

ancient history. and we've

15:55

seen the israeli leader benjamin

15:57

netanyahu explicitly try to evoke

16:00

terrible history to claim

16:02

controversially that it's being

16:04

repeated again in this

16:06

protest. Anti-Semitic mobs have

16:08

taken over leading universities. They

16:11

call for the annihilation of Israel. They

16:13

attack Jewish students. They attack Jewish

16:15

faculty. This is reminiscent of

16:17

what happened in German universities in

16:19

the 1930s. It's unconscionable.

16:23

You talked about this generational divide

16:25

within the American left, but a

16:28

lot of the critics, all of

16:30

the people who have made the

16:32

most noise about these protests, have

16:34

come from the American right, including

16:36

their undisputed leader, Donald Trump. They're

16:38

closing Columbia now. I mean, it's

16:40

just crazy. Columbia should

16:43

gain a little strength, a little courage,

16:45

and keep their school open. It's crazy

16:48

because that means the other side wins.

16:50

When you start closing down college... What

16:52

role has the right played in

16:54

amping this whole thing up? Some

16:57

of the politicians in the United

16:59

States, particularly those who are on

17:02

the far right, are,

17:04

I would say, clearly weaponizing

17:07

this conflict. So it's all

17:09

part of this anti-wokeness that

17:12

we've seen throughout the country in

17:15

recent years, certainly in Florida with

17:17

Governor DeSantis and book bands and

17:19

all of that sort of thing.

17:21

It's a way of saying these

17:24

Democrats, these liberals, these progressives, these

17:26

elite institutions are to

17:29

be scorned and they're to

17:31

be criticized. And we're going to,

17:33

in some cases, try to humiliate

17:35

them. Margaret, we

17:37

saw these fault lines really come

17:39

to a head in December with

17:42

the presidents of Harvard University, MIT,

17:44

and the University of Pennsylvania testifying

17:46

in Congress at a hearing on

17:48

anti-Semitism. Institutional anti-Semitism

17:50

and hate are

17:53

among the poisoned fruits of

17:55

your institution's cultures. The

17:58

Buck for what has happened. Must... Stop

18:00

on the President's desk. Tell

18:02

me about that. Will. They went

18:04

before Congress have their own

18:06

volition, although they could have

18:09

been subpoenaed, and they were

18:11

prepared i think mostly by

18:13

lawyers to sound very, very

18:15

careful. They parsed every word

18:17

and they spoke it very

18:19

careful terms, trying to tread

18:21

this line about academic freedom

18:24

and freedom of expression, while

18:26

still saying that anti semitism

18:28

was a bad thing, and

18:30

they came off without a

18:32

doubt as to. Legal Lipstick

18:34

Not emotional enough about

18:37

opposing anti semitism. I.

18:39

Will ask you one more

18:41

time. Since calling for the

18:43

genocide of Jews violate Harvard's

18:45

rules of bullying and harassment?

18:48

Yes or no. Anti

18:50

Semitic rhetoric and if antisemitic.

18:52

rather, it's anti semitic. Rhetoric

18:55

when it crosses into conduct. And

18:57

amounts to bullying ras

18:59

meant intimidation. That.

19:01

Is actionable conduct and we do

19:03

take action. So. The

19:06

answer is yes, that calling for

19:08

the genocide of Jews violates Harvard

19:10

code of conduct or. Asked. Again,

19:15

It depends on the contacted. Does not

19:17

depend on the context. The answer is

19:20

yes and this is why you should

19:22

resign. Fees are unacceptable answers across the

19:24

board. Than. There were right

19:26

wing figures who went on the

19:28

attack and you know, the whole

19:30

thing just went up in flames.

19:33

Tonight. Embattled Harvard President Clinton gay

19:35

stamping down abruptly ending her turbulent

19:37

six months tenure as the institutions

19:39

first black president the sort of

19:42

term of anyone in that position.

19:44

In else becomes less than a

19:46

month after congressional testimony that sparked

19:48

outrage at intense backlash both from

19:50

critics and prominent university donors. Stay

19:52

becomes the second Ivy league leader

19:55

to step down, following last month's

19:57

contentious hearing before the House Committee

19:59

On Education. What? Did

20:01

a thing is that the day

20:03

before the in why pay they

20:05

went into Colombia and clear that

20:08

first Campus Columbia's President Minister Fake

20:10

herself testified before one of those

20:12

congressional committees What was her approach

20:15

in answering those kinds of questions?

20:17

So. She was much more ready

20:20

to accommodate the demands and

20:22

the belief of these right

20:24

wing figures who are questioning

20:26

her letters we developed in

20:28

consultation with her anti Semitism

20:30

Task force. It's a new

20:32

Demonstration Policies which clarified what

20:34

would happen to students who

20:36

attended unsanctioned events and that

20:38

policy Along that we've also

20:40

worked with our faculty and

20:42

students. Science has a hierarchy of

20:44

punishments Any, and she arguably

20:46

did not. Present a strong

20:48

case for academic freedom, for freedom

20:50

of expression, for freedom of assembly,

20:53

and those things which are extremely

20:55

important on campus. So I think

20:57

that could be depicted as an

20:59

over reaction to what had happened

21:01

with the other university president. Which. Are

21:03

you have something about Columbia? I'm are their

21:06

anti semitic professors on your faculty? I.

21:10

Certainly hope not, and I know if

21:12

I have any evidence that they there

21:15

are a digital. Representative the Senses:

21:17

Anti semitism along professors are your

21:19

family. We. Have seen

21:21

some cases and there have been consequences.

21:33

Start. Quoting game of to

21:35

my habit. President tried one way

21:38

to navigate this controversy and that

21:40

didn't work for her. She was

21:42

forced to resign he chops. We've

21:44

now seen the Colombian President minister

21:46

Freak try to completely different strategies

21:48

and that also hasn't worked. She

21:50

found herself at odds with the

21:53

left, criticised by the right. The

21:55

house speaker Mike Johnson was actually

21:57

on the Columbia campus on Wednesday.

21:59

coins. Her resignation an adjustable

22:01

as Columbia has allow his

22:04

lawless agitators and radicals to

22:06

take over. The

22:08

virus of anti semitism is spread

22:10

across other campuses. What do you

22:13

see? These university presidents who are

22:15

so accomplished so successful? Why do

22:17

you think they struggled so much

22:20

to navigate the Falklands. Well,

22:22

they got some very different constituencies.

22:24

They're trying to make sure that

22:27

they don't anger their boards and

22:29

their donors. and at the same

22:31

time you have faculty, you have

22:34

staff, and you have many students

22:36

who feel very, very differently and

22:38

are standing up for rights that

22:41

are enshrined in the First Amendment.

22:44

Which. Speak to assembly.

22:46

To. Free Speech to press right?

22:49

These things are in conflict and

22:51

it's impossible to make everyone

22:53

happy. And I think what I've

22:55

come to think about his dad

22:58

In a situation when you actually

23:00

cannot make everyone happy, the

23:02

thing to do is the right

23:05

thing and well of course this

23:07

kind of speech that goes after

23:09

individuals or threatens the safety

23:11

of individuals or doc says other

23:14

students and hate speech. Is.

23:16

Awful and shouldn't be allowed at

23:18

the same time. Academic Freedom. Freedom

23:20

of expression, Freedom to assemble, The

23:23

right to protest. I mean, there's

23:25

a great history of that on

23:27

college campuses, and I think that

23:29

should be very. Highly.

23:31

Rated as well. As. It and

23:34

what would such look like on the

23:36

ground with using use the way food

23:38

he for universities like Columbia. I

23:40

think it should be a last

23:42

resort to call in outside police

23:45

onto campus. That's. something

23:47

that should happen only when

23:49

there's clear and present danger

23:51

and then i think efforts

23:53

which are actually ongoing now

23:55

at columbia and i hope

23:57

they'll be successful to negotiate

23:59

with students about what kind

24:01

of demonstrations and protests

24:04

are appropriate, where they can be

24:06

held, what sorts of restrictions might

24:09

be around them, to try to take

24:11

an open approach that understands

24:14

that emotions and feelings

24:16

and philosophies are

24:18

running high and going to be clashing. Coming

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That's amazon.com/news ad-free to catch up

25:34

on the latest episodes without the

25:36

ads. Margaret,

25:41

the key demand of students that

25:44

kicked off this controversy was that

25:46

Columbia should divest from

25:48

Israel. What kind of relations it

25:50

has with Israel should be cutting off in the light of

25:52

what's happened in Gaza. Do you

25:54

think that that is a realistic

25:57

demand, something that Columbia and other

25:59

universities take seriously? Well

26:02

I think it's hard for universities

26:04

to do that entirely because

26:07

there are investments that

26:09

are complicated and long-held

26:11

and so it's not as easy as

26:13

sort of saying okay we're going to

26:15

just transfer this amount of money to

26:18

some other account. But I

26:20

think that it's something that

26:22

is possible in moderated ways

26:25

and the students are not asking for

26:28

every contact with Israel to be

26:30

cut off. Columbia for example has

26:32

a strong program in Tel Aviv

26:35

and there's no movement that I know of

26:37

to end that or no thought that it

26:40

would be ended. But it does have to

26:42

do with investments particularly

26:44

investments in what

26:46

students would call the war machine investments

26:49

that then go to weapons and the

26:53

military. We've

27:02

seen in the past week what

27:04

started at Columbia spreads universities in

27:07

Canada, in Australia. Just

27:09

on Wednesday police clashed with young

27:11

protesters at the University of Southern

27:13

California, at the University of Texas

27:15

at Austin. This movement

27:17

looks like it's growing, it's getting

27:20

angrier and it's getting bigger every

27:22

day. Where do you think all

27:24

of this goes next? It

27:28

is something that is capturing students'

27:31

attention and I think when they

27:33

see people like them, students

27:35

of their age, who they're in

27:37

sympathy with, when they see them

27:39

being arrested and in some

27:41

cases manhandled, they want to

27:43

take part and they understand

27:45

that there's been a very

27:48

high number of civilian deaths

27:50

in Gaza and they feel strongly about

27:52

that. So I think this movement could

27:55

continue to spread and

27:57

it actually could easily become a global

27:59

movement. What's striking

28:01

to me is the sheer scale

28:04

of the generational divide here, the gap

28:06

between what these students want

28:09

and what people like Joe Biden

28:11

say. And it makes me

28:13

think that what we're watching here is not a

28:15

fight over what people can say at universities, that

28:17

it's a kind of fight

28:19

about something much greater, about what America's

28:21

policy towards Israel might not look like

28:24

today, but what it might look like

28:26

in 20 or 20 years

28:28

when many of these students might be

28:30

in the media, in business and leading

28:32

the government. Yeah, that's right.

28:34

I mean, it is evolving. But

28:36

I also think it's really important not to

28:39

overstate. There certainly are a

28:41

lot of older Americans

28:43

who are sympathetic to the

28:45

Palestinians. There certainly are a

28:47

lot of students, particularly Jewish

28:50

students, who feel unsafe on

28:52

campus. So it's not a

28:54

complete divide. But I

28:56

think you are expressing the broad outlines of

28:58

it well. And yeah,

29:01

I do think that our relationship

29:03

with Israel is probably evolving and

29:05

changing right now. And we don't

29:07

know what it's going to look like in the future. Margaret,

29:10

thank you very much. Thanks very much for

29:12

having me. That

29:18

was Margaret Sullivan, a columnist with Guardian US

29:20

whose work you can find at our website.

29:23

And also to Erem Salam, a reporter

29:25

based in New York with Guardian US.

29:28

Before we go, I want to say a

29:30

couple of things about a man who's been

29:32

the heart and soul and the brain of

29:34

this podcast virtually since the beginning. You've

29:37

heard his name hundreds of times. He's

29:39

our executive producer Phil Maynard, who is

29:41

leaving the show. This is his last

29:44

episode to take on bigger responsibilities at

29:46

The Guardian. Though his

29:48

voice has never been heard on

29:50

this podcast, in so many ways,

29:52

today in focus is his podcast,

29:54

his ideas, his creativity and his

29:56

incredible judgment. He is, in short,

29:58

the best. heartbroken to lose

30:01

him, though I think we'll be asking

30:03

ourselves for a long time whenever we

30:05

get stuck, for simple words, what would

30:07

Phil do? Phil, I can imagine how

30:09

much you're cringing listening to this, but

30:11

it's too late, it's in the episode now, so

30:13

good luck. And that

30:15

is it for today. This episode

30:17

was produced by Hannah Moore and

30:19

Courtney Yousef, sound designs by

30:22

Solomon King, the executive producer

30:24

was Phil Maynard, and we're back

30:26

with you on Monday. This

30:30

is The Guardian. That's

30:59

amazon.com/news ad free to catch up

31:01

on the latest episodes without

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