0:00

Well then I'll just go do some awesome

0:02

Canada stuff. They call me if you ever

0:05

need help moving. Trudeau

0:09

away! In

0:12

a lot of ways the leader of Canada is

0:14

not like the leader of the United States. Justin

0:17

is 52, Joe is 81,

0:20

but the two do share some

0:22

struggles. Trudeau's been in office for

0:24

a while, he's being challenged by

0:26

a conservative populist, and he's struggling

0:28

in the polls, especially with young

0:30

people. But now he's got a

0:32

plan to fix it, all of

0:34

it. Among the $52.9 billion in new spending, proposing

0:38

a $23 billion program to get

0:40

nearly 4 million homes

0:42

built between now and 2031. He's

0:45

got a budget that speaks directly to

0:48

millennials and Gen Z, or

0:50

Gen Z as he calls them,

0:52

and he's hoping it'll keep populism

0:54

at bay in Canada too. Minister

0:57

Justin Trudeau is going to join us on today,

0:59

explain to tell us all about it. There

1:28

you go,

1:30

can you

1:33

guys hear

1:36

me? Yes,

1:47

welcome. Today explained Sean Ramos from

1:49

When We Start Interviews for the

1:51

show, we typically remind our guests

1:53

to put their phones on silent.

1:56

I Haven't turned my ringer on in eight

1:58

years, so there's that.. Fantastic.

2:03

Canyon. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau did not

2:05

need a reminder. Glad to be here!

2:08

Mr. Prime Minister. I grew up in

2:10

Canada, but of now lived in the

2:12

United States longer than I lived up

2:14

there. But your your politics looks familiar

2:17

lately. people are angry, especially young people

2:19

and it looks like a lot of

2:21

them are angry at you. Wire.

2:24

Canadians young and old. so

2:26

angry right now was in

2:28

the world's in a really

2:30

complicated place. Right now, we're

2:32

still dealing with the hangover

2:34

from covert. We're looking at

2:36

wildfires and uncertainty around climate

2:38

change that having a huge

2:40

impact. We're seeing things like

2:42

global inflation and interest rates

2:44

up. We see wars, we

2:46

see changing geopolitics we should,

2:48

the changing world of work

2:50

back home, and and challenges

2:52

in. Thinking that. This.

2:55

Generation can succeed as well as

2:57

previous generations did. I mean, there's

2:59

a lot of things to be

3:01

worried about and of course, people

3:03

look at whoever is in charge

3:05

and say i'll note the world's

3:07

going about place or it must

3:09

be your faults and that's totally

3:11

totally understandable. My focus and or

3:13

focuses government's has to be okay.

3:16

How do we solve for this?

3:18

How do we look at the

3:20

fundamental problems that people are facing?

3:22

And how do we start getting

3:25

things back to a place where

3:27

people can be ambitious and optimistic

3:29

about the future? And that's not

3:31

an easy thing, but it requires

3:33

and requires hard work. requires seriousness.

3:36

There's a temptation out there in

3:38

politics to really point fingers and

3:40

make people angrier and show them

3:42

you hear them by amplifying bad

3:44

what they're saying. But

3:46

to be able to actually solve the

3:49

challenges and put a dent in it

3:51

has sort of what we got into

3:53

politics for. And in in Twenty Sistine

3:55

A when he of the Hangover and

3:57

the impact of the Two Thousand and

3:59

Eight recession. I was still very

4:01

very active as and there were populist

4:03

solution starting to come around. Certainly twenty

4:05

sixteen in the states was us a

4:08

populace. moments we sort of said okay

4:10

let's get elected to try and six

4:12

things try and make sure the middle

4:14

class feel supported and optimistic about the

4:16

future And it's those of the things

4:19

we've been working on since then and

4:21

it's even more important now. I.

4:23

Want to get to the populism

4:25

in a moment here? But I

4:27

first want to focus on solutions

4:29

because you've been touring Canada Talking

4:31

about one is your proposed solutions,

4:33

your new budget, and a focus

4:35

squarely on something we've talked about

4:37

on our show a bunch recently,

4:39

which is housing affordability, especially among

4:41

younger generations. Can you tell people

4:43

a bit about your plan? actually

4:47

of housing is is a big big

4:49

part of it's but. The. Budget

4:51

and the plan is actually about

4:53

fairness. It's about recognizing that for

4:55

a lot of people particularly young

4:57

people, millennials and agenda said Jan

4:59

seats in the States people are

5:02

facing and anxiety that the economy

5:04

doesn't work for them anymore that

5:06

this principles that held true for

5:08

us exercise for boomers of getting

5:10

a good job. be able to

5:12

save up for why your rent

5:14

to buy a house eventually and

5:16

and you a mortgage new build

5:18

things for like that's that just

5:20

doesn't work. Anymore that the deck

5:22

is stacked against young people in

5:24

a way that is different from

5:26

previous generation Cern. That's a problem

5:28

because it leads to wear a

5:30

sense of uncertainty about the future

5:32

or and a sense of okay

5:35

the institutions in society and governments

5:37

can't actually help and that sort

5:39

of seeds into populism. The challenge

5:41

that we have is okay. what

5:43

are the biggest challenge is out

5:45

there in Canada housing people? Can't

5:47

imagine working as a nurse, or

5:49

a carpenter, an electrician, or Us.

5:51

police officer and living in the city

5:53

that they serve that's something that we

5:55

should be able to sex and we're

5:57

working on fixing that we need to

5:59

me sure things like people who are

6:01

paying $2,000 a month

6:03

on rent besides someone

6:05

else is paying $2,000 a month

6:07

for a mortgage, well, that rent should

6:10

be counted towards their credit score so

6:12

they can eventually get a mortgage. That's

6:14

something that nobody thought of before because

6:16

rent was never such a huge part

6:18

of people's expenditures. Making

6:21

that change gives people hope again that you

6:24

can see a better future in

6:26

which you're going to be able to succeed. The

6:28

part of the issue here is that there's just

6:30

simply not enough housing. That's an issue in the

6:32

United States. That's an issue in

6:34

Canada. What can the federal government,

6:37

what can you, the prime minister, do about

6:39

that? Well, first

6:41

of all, we've had from the beginning a

6:43

re-engagement in housing after previous federal governments sort

6:45

of stepped out of it and said, no,

6:47

no, that's a regional and local level issue.

6:50

We started moving forward on a

6:53

number of different initiatives for affordable

6:55

housing here, for different projects there.

6:59

But more recently we realized we

7:01

needed a larger scale approach. So

7:03

we actually put huge amounts of

7:05

money, billions and billions of dollars

7:07

on the table for municipalities to

7:09

convince them, some might say bribe

7:11

them, to change

7:13

the rules around how housing is

7:16

built. Allow four

7:18

units as of right on

7:20

every single lot, allowing four

7:23

stories on single residential areas,

7:25

enforcing more density near transit,

7:28

removing parking minimums, for example,

7:31

using more federal public lands. If you

7:33

have a post office building, well, let's

7:35

build a tower of affordable housing above

7:37

it and still have the post office on

7:39

the ground floor instead of having just a one-story

7:42

building there. These kinds of

7:44

things are changing the way we're building

7:46

housing across the country and pushing really

7:48

hard back against the nimbyism that happens

7:51

everywhere of people who've made it, who've

7:53

got their home, who don't want to

7:55

see the densification around them. Us

7:58

putting Money on the table for the municipalities. Apologies

8:00

to change the rules is going to

8:02

massively boost supply over the coming years

8:04

and we're sort of putting money out

8:07

there and saying to our provinces, the

8:09

regional governments that they have to step

8:11

up and meet our level of ambition.

8:13

Yes, they're gonna benefit from the federal

8:15

funding the we have that is conditional

8:18

and if they it's they don't wanna

8:20

get ambitious around it. That's fine. We'll

8:22

put the money in a part of

8:24

the country that does want to be

8:27

ambitious and that sort of idea of

8:29

hates. Let's be. All together in

8:31

trying to solve this supply challenge I'm

8:33

is is a huge part of how

8:35

we create a future that the young

8:38

people can see themselves succeeding in. The.

8:40

Conservatives in Canada has said that

8:42

they're gonna votes against this budget

8:45

of yours. You're still working to

8:47

get other caucuses on board. I

8:49

understand the leader of the opposition,

8:51

peer Poly Evra. He's out chanting

8:53

acts the Tax which is, of

8:56

course compelling to some out there.

8:58

at a time when Canadians are

9:00

feeling squeeze by inflation's and are

9:02

feeling maybe a bit more nervous

9:04

than than historically they have about

9:07

immigration. Are you worried that you're

9:09

opposition's messaging around this. Plan might

9:11

resonate more than yours

9:13

am I think seat

9:15

opposition is. Recognizing.

9:18

That there is concern and anxiety

9:20

out there. The thing is though,

9:22

they're not offering any solutions at

9:24

all for it and I believe

9:26

in the biggest choice and the

9:29

biggest difference between me and and

9:31

the Conservatives right now is they

9:33

don't think government has a role

9:35

to play in solving for these

9:37

problems in these challenges and I

9:39

think that went can't solve everything

9:41

in nor should it tries but

9:43

it can make sure that this

9:46

the system isn't working. for young

9:48

people that we rebalance the system market

9:50

forces are not gonna do that at

9:52

all like one of the things we

9:54

did in this budgets are we doing

9:56

in this budget is we're raising capital

9:59

gains are so the wealthiest 0.1%

10:01

pay a little more. Capital gains will

10:03

still be lower than they are in

10:05

California and New York, for example, so

10:07

it's not going to go after innovation.

10:09

But it's bringing in money so we

10:11

can actually invest more in young people

10:14

in fairness in those kinds of things.

10:16

And that's something that the Conservatives are

10:18

totally against. But still,

10:20

are you worried that that's

10:22

a more compelling case for

10:25

Canadians who are maybe less concerned about

10:27

what their fortunes look like in seven

10:29

years and more concerned about what their

10:32

fortunes might look like tomorrow? Yes,

10:35

Canadians are worried and they're anxious

10:37

and they're listening to all sorts

10:39

of people with different

10:42

levels of solutions. But I ultimately

10:44

trust Canadians to be thoughtful and

10:47

reasonable. And when they see things

10:49

that we're putting forward that are

10:51

actually solving the things that are

10:54

making them worried rather than just

10:56

amplifying them, I'm confident that

10:58

in a year and a half, the

11:00

conversations we're going to have about the kind

11:02

of country Canadians want to live in, where

11:05

we move forward as a government that's investing

11:07

to solve the housing crisis, not just trying

11:09

to get out of the way and hope

11:11

that developers fix it themselves, or making real

11:13

choices like $10 a day

11:15

childcare that is a huge driver

11:18

of economic growth that the Conservatives

11:20

continue to oppose. Or even further,

11:22

even as we're investing in healthcare,

11:25

which is delivered by the

11:27

provinces, there's a role for the federal

11:29

government. These are things that actually meet

11:31

people where they are in their costs

11:34

of living and provide solutions for a

11:36

better life. Those choices

11:38

are going to be on the table

11:41

in the next election. And I'm confident

11:43

that Canadians are going to remain responsible,

11:45

ambitious, and optimistic about their future. More

11:55

on their future and ours with

11:58

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. When

12:00

we're back on today, explain.

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16:00

Explique is back with Prime Minister

16:02

Justin Trudeau, who is not up

16:04

for reelection this year, at least

16:07

thus far. It's a parliamentary system,

16:09

you know how those can be. But

16:11

he will likely have to face

16:13

his opposition next year. And his

16:15

opposition, like Biden's here in the

16:17

USA, is looking populist-y.

16:19

After eight years of

16:22

Justin Trudeau, everything

16:24

feels broken. No. Eight

16:27

years of Justin Trudeau, everything is

16:29

broken. And

16:31

just like here, that populism has got

16:33

people fretting about democracy in Canada. We

16:35

asked Justin Trudeau if he's fretting too.

16:38

Well, first of all, it's a

16:41

global trend. In every democracy, we're

16:43

seeing a rise of populists with

16:46

easy answers that don't

16:48

necessarily hold up to any

16:50

expert scrutiny. But a big part of populism

16:53

is condemning and ignoring

16:55

experts and expertise. So

16:58

it sort of feeds on itself and

17:00

relies on a lot of misinformation and

17:02

disinformation. And ultimately, you

17:04

have to trust in people. You

17:06

have to trust in

17:08

democracy itself, that people are going

17:11

to be awful and reasonable about

17:14

how one moves forward. And yes,

17:16

it's really easy to slap on

17:18

a bumper sticker and wave a

17:20

flag and sort of say, oh,

17:22

yes, no, everything should be burned down because

17:24

the system doesn't work. It's harder

17:27

to roll up your sleeves and fix the

17:29

system. But that's one of the things that

17:31

has made Canada successful

17:33

and, quite frankly, made the United

17:36

States successful over the past generations.

17:38

People rolling up their sleeves and

17:41

believing in building a better world

17:43

together through hard work, not through

17:45

easy shortcuts or buzzwords. And

17:48

I think that for all the

17:50

appeal of simplicity

17:53

and simplistic solutions

17:55

and clever TikTok videos,

17:58

I think people understand that government

18:01

is about being there

18:04

to create fairness, being

18:06

there to make sure that everyone has

18:08

an opportunity to succeed, being

18:10

there to make sure that we're there to

18:12

lean on each other. And I think there

18:14

is a difference between Canada and the United

18:17

States, and I think might be the weather,

18:19

might be the big empty spaces, but Canadians

18:21

know we need to

18:23

be there for our neighbors. It goes to

18:25

trudging across a field on a moonless snowy

18:27

night 300 years ago to

18:30

be there for your neighbor if there was a challenge.

18:34

Canadians are there to push an old

18:36

lady's Buick out of a snowbank. We're there

18:39

to support each other and understand that

18:41

we all do better when we're there

18:43

for each other. And there's a lot

18:45

of populism that folds into a level

18:47

of individualism that I think is

18:51

counterproductive to the kind of world we

18:53

need to build where we are so

18:55

interconnected, whether it's the pandemics, whether it's

18:57

climate change, whether it's just living

18:59

in safer neighborhoods, we need to be there to

19:02

watch out for our neighbors and be there for

19:04

each other. And that's something that Canadians have

19:06

always done well. And our focus

19:08

on this budget in asking the wealthiest to

19:10

pay a bit more so we can make

19:12

sure young people feel that

19:14

pathway to success is

19:16

not just about making sure

19:18

those young people are successful, it's about

19:21

making sure that everyone is successful because

19:23

when our economy is growing well and

19:25

everyone's doing well, well, the wealthy will

19:27

find lots of ways to make money

19:29

off of a prosperous and successful middle

19:31

class. I'm not worried about innovation and

19:33

creativity. I'm worried about people being able

19:36

to pay their rent and eventually

19:38

buy a home. My

19:40

colleague, Zach Beecham, who's something of

19:42

like a honorary Canadian himself, he's

19:44

got a book coming out called

19:46

The Reactionary Spirit. And in it,

19:48

he looks at the rise of

19:50

authoritarian politics in advanced democracies. And

19:52

he thinks Canada is an

19:55

example of a country that is resistant

19:57

to far right populism Canadian

20:00

identity is so bound

20:02

up in multiculturalism and that makes it

20:04

harder for these movements to gain traction.

20:08

At the same time, the freedom convoy

20:10

from a few years ago didn't exactly

20:12

feel like a celebration of Canadian multiculturalism.

20:14

It started as a

20:16

protest against vaccine requirements for lobby

20:18

drivers, but it's ushering to

20:20

an anti-government movement which actually allows

20:23

not only the typical city, but

20:25

vital treaties between Canada and the

20:27

US. There are reports

20:29

of protesters displaying Confederate and

20:32

Nazi symbols. Do

20:34

you think that Canadian identity that you're

20:36

talking about pushing a lady's Buick in

20:38

the snow, regardless of

20:40

maybe her creed or

20:42

colour, do you think that identity might

20:44

be under threat right now? Oh, I

20:47

think it's absolutely under threat. Everywhere

20:49

around the world, Canada is not a

20:51

magical place of unicorns and rainbows. We

20:54

have the same kinds of pressures that everyone

20:56

is facing. We're

20:59

trying to approach it a little bit

21:01

differently and quite frankly, that

21:03

sense of being there for each

21:05

other, which comes from an incredibly

21:08

diverse country that didn't go for the

21:10

US melting pot where everyone became a

21:13

similar American, or at least in the ideal,

21:16

where we actually continue to celebrate

21:18

the diversities, the languages, the backgrounds,

21:21

the stories, the cultures

21:23

that everyone brings to enrich our country

21:25

to make more of a tapestry or

21:27

a mosaic are the cliches we use.

21:30

That gives a level of resilience that

21:32

is there so that

21:34

you understand, despite your identity and

21:37

your experience. Someone totally different from

21:39

you is just as

21:41

much a Canadian as you are because

21:43

we share the same values of openness,

21:46

of freedom, of willingness to work

21:48

hard and succeed for each other,

21:50

of respect, of compassion. Those things

21:52

that define any progressive positive economy

21:54

or democracy around the world, including

21:56

the United States, these are things

21:58

that we've been doing. tend to

22:00

try and hold on to more

22:02

than ever. But I will say

22:05

that the advent of social media

22:07

and the echo chambers and the

22:09

filter bubbles and all those things

22:11

that are making people stop

22:13

listening to each other and hearing each

22:16

other in our communities the same way

22:19

is worrisome. And I think the

22:21

big question Canadians are going to be

22:23

facing, like people will face in democracies

22:26

all around the world over the coming

22:28

years, is what kind of country

22:30

do we want to be? Do we

22:32

want to be a country where we

22:34

can be friends with someone even if

22:36

they have a different background for us

22:38

or more importantly these days a different

22:40

political view or viewpoint from us? Can

22:42

someone from the right really be friends

22:44

with someone from the left? Yes, absolutely.

22:47

That's what always has made our

22:51

societies and our economies robust that,

22:54

when someone you didn't vote

22:57

for becomes Prime Minister or President,

22:59

you sort of shrug and say, okay, better

23:01

luck next time. I hope my person gets

23:03

it next time. But for now, this

23:06

person is the President and we'll deal with it and

23:08

we'll work around it best we can. The

23:10

falling into if someone you didn't

23:12

support becomes leader, then your life

23:15

is over and the economy is

23:17

ruined and there's an illegitimacy

23:19

there. That's really scary

23:22

and quite frankly, it's one of those things that our

23:25

authoritarian opponents or adversaries

23:27

around the world from Russia to a

23:29

whole bunch of different countries are

23:32

trying to actively encourage for people

23:34

to believe. I

23:39

don't know. Sir, I don't hear you. Can you hear me? Mr.

23:42

Prime Minister, if you can hear us, we've lost

23:44

you for a minute, but hopefully

23:46

we can get you back. There we go. Hello.

23:48

Sorry. No

23:51

problem. That was totally my fault. I was

23:53

fiddling with the chord. It was the power

23:55

chord, but

23:58

it's also the connection. court

24:00

so I totally my bad on

24:02

that and

24:05

and you know we lost you obviously mid

24:07

sentence so I'm wondering if you could kind

24:09

of pick up your thought mr. prime minister

24:11

from authoritarian ideation abroad that we're trying to

24:14

combat here could you could you just finish

24:16

that thought yeah and one of the real

24:18

challenges is that we have authoritarian

24:22

adversaries like Russia

24:24

who are very very interested in

24:26

undermining our democracies and they used to

24:28

do it sort of an economics or

24:30

in sort of Cold War style but

24:32

what they're doing now is they're going

24:35

at undermining people's confidence in

24:37

our very institutions of democracies

24:39

our very ability as a

24:41

society to be cohesive and

24:43

make coherent choices in and

24:45

legitimate choices as democracies

24:47

you're talking about democratic ideals in

24:50

the face of not only populism

24:52

but straight-up authoritarianism Russia whatever

24:54

it might be China as a member

24:56

of the G7 and the

24:58

G20 as the guy who is you

25:00

know at all of these conferences meeting

25:03

with these leaders who do you

25:05

think is winning that war

25:07

between freedom democracy

25:09

and authoritarianism well

25:13

it depends how you look and who

25:15

you look at certainly the

25:18

authoritarians are taking up a lot of

25:20

space on the world stage right now

25:22

and democracy is definitely under

25:24

threat but when you

25:26

look at where people are thriving

25:28

where quality of living is better

25:31

where where opportunities

25:33

for growth for advancement for

25:35

resilience in the face of

25:38

massive challenges is better there's

25:40

no question that democracies remain

25:42

a lot more advantageous

25:45

to human beings than

25:47

than any other structures but it's

25:50

not as obvious as it used

25:52

to be and there's so much

25:55

challenge out there to it and

25:57

people exacerbating some of those challenges

26:00

that there's an uncertainty there. And

26:02

we have to remember, democracies

26:05

didn't happen by accident, and

26:07

they don't continue without effort.

26:09

And we all have to

26:11

be mindful about how we

26:13

tend to our responsibilities as

26:15

citizens on staying engaged, staying

26:17

thoughtful, staying open to different

26:19

points of view, and trying

26:22

to move forward in a way where we

26:24

can all sort of agree on the basic

26:26

facts, even though we might

26:29

disagree on how to

26:31

best move forward given those facts

26:34

in one political direction or another. You've

26:36

been at it for coming up on nine

26:38

years now, three terms. You've said you want

26:40

a fourth. A question a lot

26:43

of Americans are asking about our politicians right

26:45

now, especially because they're very old, is

26:47

why not give someone else a chance? You're

26:50

not nearly as old as they are, but

26:52

I wonder what's your answer to that

26:54

question right now as you seek out a fourth term?

26:57

The stakes are so incredibly

26:59

high right now. The narrative

27:01

that is out there is

27:03

that everything that

27:06

I've done and that we've done

27:08

as a government for the past

27:10

eight years, whether it's fighting climate

27:12

change, whether it's investing in partnerships

27:14

and reconciliation with indigenous peoples, whether

27:16

it's promoting feminism and bringing forward

27:18

a gender balance cabinet, standing up

27:21

for women's rights, standing up for

27:23

minority rights, standing up for an

27:25

economy that works for everyone. People

27:28

are now saying the conservative argument out

27:30

there is all those things is

27:33

why life is difficult right now. The

27:36

actual fact is, particularly when you compare us to

27:38

other countries around the world, all

27:40

these things have made life better in meaningful ways,

27:43

and it would be much worse if

27:45

we hadn't done all those things. There is

27:47

a moment right now where Canadians are going

27:49

to have to choose over the next year

27:52

and a half of what kind of country

27:54

we are. Are we a country that believes

27:56

in evidence and science? Are we a country

27:58

that looks out for each other? other and

28:00

believes that government has a role to

28:02

play in making sure that

28:05

people are protected, that the

28:07

world works responsibly, or

28:09

do you go down a path

28:12

of amplifying anger, division, and fear?

28:14

Government gets out of the way and

28:17

lets people fend for themselves, protects the

28:19

wealthiest and the trickle-down

28:21

approach that has never worked. These

28:24

are the things that are on

28:26

the ballot in the next election.

28:28

I got into politics to

28:30

make a difference, to fight for

28:32

fairness, to fight for opportunities,

28:35

particularly for young people, and

28:37

that fight is not done

28:39

yet. I am actually really

28:42

looking forward to that moment where

28:44

Canadians get to choose who we

28:47

are. I am deeply confident

28:49

that Canadians are going to remain

28:52

true to who they've

28:54

always been and who they are every time

28:56

I have a conversation with people from St.

28:58

John's to Vancouver, from Windsor to

29:01

Halloway, right across the country. People

29:03

are thoughtful about their future, and as long

29:06

as we remain so, Canada is going to

29:08

make us fine. Mr. Prime Minister, thank you so much for your time. It's

29:10

a real pleasure, Sean. Prime

29:26

Minister Justin Trudeau, canada.ca. Our

29:29

program today was produced by Amanda Llewelyn,

29:31

edited by Matthew Collette, and fact-checked by

29:34

Halima Shaw and Anouk Dusseau. It was

29:36

mixed by Patrick Boyd who wore a

29:38

blazer to the interview, even though the

29:40

Prime Minister would never see it. I'm

29:43

Sean Ramisferm. Thank

29:54

you. you