0:00

Craft matters in small ways, like how

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coffee is made, or

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how a wooden table is built piece by piece.

0:07

And in not so small ways, like how your money

0:09

is cared for. At UBS,

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we elevate investing to a craft.

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We deliver our services with passion,

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expertise, and meticulous attention to detail.

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This is what investing means to

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UBS. Not just work, but

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a craft. Discover more

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at ubs.com/craft. The

0:28

value of investments may fall as well as rise, and

0:30

you may not get back the amount originally invested. A

0:35

quick warning. There are curse words that are unbeeped

0:37

in today's episode of the show. If

0:40

you prefer a beeped version, you can

0:42

find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org. My

0:46

dad's ATM password was $11.19 till the day died. $11.19

0:51

was also in the password for his home Wi-Fi network.

0:55

$11.19 was shorthand for 1119 Bayard

0:57

Street, which is where his

0:59

grandfather, my great grandfather, owned a

1:02

tiny grocery store on the ground floor of a house

1:04

in downtown Baltimore in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, 50s. Picture

1:08

a neighborhood bodega and you've got the

1:11

general size of this thing. The family

1:13

lived upstairs, worked downstairs. So

1:16

much happened at 1119 Bayard. So

1:18

many things about our family were set in motion there. But

1:21

my sisters and I only got little scraps of stories about the

1:23

place. This handful of

1:25

family defining origin stories. They

1:28

got trotted out now and then. Like

1:30

for instance, there was the one about the chickens. My

1:33

dad and his brother Lenny both worked

1:35

in the store from the time they were little kids. And

1:38

chickens were slaughtered at the store, or

1:41

tricked them out, both of them. To

1:43

the point where decades later, as grown

1:45

men, neither of them ate

1:47

chicken. And they'd explain this was

1:50

the reason why. Or

1:52

there's the story about my great grandfather's bookkeeping skills.

1:55

I'm actually named for my great grandfather,

1:57

Isidore Friedlander. My parents.

2:00

chose Ira instead of

2:02

Isidore because Isidore Glass

2:05

is a parsable English sentence. Is

2:08

a Dory Glass? My

2:11

mom once told me that they picked Ira over

2:13

the alternatives because it sounded less

2:15

Jewish to them. It

2:17

just goes to show how completely utterly Jewish

2:19

their entire world was back then. I've

2:23

heard all my life what a kind-hearted man Isidore

2:25

was on a soft touch, which

2:28

brings me to this next story we would hear now

2:30

and then. During the Depression,

2:32

when everybody in the neighborhood was broke and

2:34

buying on credit, Isidore

2:37

set up a system where every customer would

2:39

have a little book, like this

2:41

flimsy paper thing, where he

2:43

would write down what they owed. But

2:46

the thing about the system was the

2:49

customer kept the book. Maybe

2:52

you see the problem with this. All the

2:54

time, customers would show up at the store and say,

2:56

I lost my book. And

2:59

Isidore would say that, ah, it's OK. What do you think

3:01

you owe? And then they'd

3:03

say some not very high number. And

3:06

he'd write it down and hand him a new

3:08

book to take home. Years

3:11

later, my dad became a certified public accountant.

3:14

And this became one of those, the day Peter

3:16

Parker got bit by the radioactive spider sort of

3:18

origin stories. What bad bookkeeping

3:20

he saw his grandfather do at 1119 Bayard. And

3:24

now he was going to do better. I'm

3:30

sure some good things happened at 1119 Bayard. But

3:33

those stories didn't get passed down. We heard painful

3:36

things. My dad

3:38

was miserable working there, so was his brother. His

3:41

mom, my grandma, Frida, got

3:43

out of the store, went to college, taught

3:45

Latin in junior high school. But

3:48

then got dragged back into the family

3:50

business against her will like Michael Corleone when

3:52

her dad Isidore got sick. I

3:56

visited 1119 Bayard, I don't know, maybe

3:58

half a dozen times in my life. when

10:00

the Communist Party suppressed any expression of

10:02

religion. They were atheists by

10:05

default. Their conversion here in

10:07

America goes against everything they learned

10:09

in China. The only problem

10:11

with this story is me. After

10:14

22 years of Christianity, I

10:16

left and never came back. Have

10:21

you ever felt depressed? Perhaps a

10:23

bit blue? Did you ever

10:25

have an existential crisis and start to

10:27

question the very foundation of your faith?

10:30

I am raised in the church. I

10:32

go to Sunday school and worship service

10:34

and youth group and Bible study, which

10:36

I come to lead. Every

10:38

break, I go to a retreat that's held

10:40

at a camp near Lancaster, out

10:42

in Amish country. When

10:45

I'm 17, I make this promo video

10:47

for our upcoming spring youth retreat. Maybe

10:50

you have doubts about your faith. Maybe

10:52

you've been a Christian for many years, but

10:54

you're still uncertain about some things. Maybe

10:56

you're new to Christianity and have a lot

10:59

of questions. Either way, you

11:01

should take the opportunity to go to

11:03

the spring youth retreat. Don't

11:05

believe me? Just listen to these

11:07

satisfied customers. At first, I

11:09

wasn't too sure about this retreat thing.

11:13

People going to woods, singing, worshiping,

11:15

isn't that what cults do? But

11:18

then I went to it and it was really

11:20

interesting. We went singing, we worshiped, and it wasn't

11:22

a cult at all. I mean, you should definitely

11:24

go. In retrospect,

11:26

this sounds like a cry for help. I'm

11:29

totally not trapped in a cult, haha. Being

11:32

immersed for decades in this not cult didn't

11:34

just shape my behavior. It rewired

11:37

my brain. Like even today,

11:39

when I'm washing the dishes, I'll

11:41

be thinking about how this scrub daddy I'm

11:43

using is falling apart. And I should probably

11:45

get some new sponges from the supermarket. And

11:47

Jesus Christ, remember that time at the food bazaar

11:49

in Flatbush when I almost ran my shopping

11:51

cart into that old lady and she yelled

11:53

at me, God, I'm such a worthless piece

11:55

of shit. But anyway, I should

11:57

probably go to Giant Eagle to get some sponges.

12:00

And Jesus Christ, remember that time when I met

12:02

up with the Arts Council guy at the 61C

12:04

Cafe across the street from the Giant Eagle and

12:07

we said goodbye, but then we were walking the

12:09

same way and awkwardly made more conversation until we

12:11

reached his car? God, I'm such a worthless piece

12:13

of shit. But anyway, I

12:16

should email the landlord about how the dishwasher

12:18

doesn't work, so I don't have to hand

12:20

wash these dishes. It hasn't worked this entire

12:22

time. And Jesus Christ, it's been almost a

12:24

year since I moved into this apartment and

12:26

I still haven't emailed him. God, why

12:28

am I such a procrastinator? I'm such a worthless

12:31

piece of shit. Sometimes I

12:33

whisper it to myself. I'm

12:35

a worthless piece of shit. I

12:37

hate myself. This

12:39

is the main thing I learned from Christianity, that

12:42

I'm a worthless piece of shit. And

12:44

listen, I know that that's not the main message of

12:46

the gospel. I know Jesus teaches

12:49

us that we're redeemed by his sacrifice, that

12:51

we're all children of God. But

12:53

all that nice feel-good stuff bounced right off

12:55

of me. What was drilled

12:57

into my mind and what I really internalized is

13:00

that while I'm a child of God, I'm

13:02

also a child of Adam, who

13:05

ate the forbidden fruit offered to him

13:07

by Eve and whose original sin I

13:09

inherit. Christians remind you of it

13:11

all the time. I was at

13:13

a wedding where the groom's brother told the

13:15

newlyweds they need to never forget that they're

13:17

broken sinners, at a celebration of

13:19

the couple. So I learned to

13:22

hate myself. I need to

13:24

punish myself every moment of every waking

13:26

hour of every day for my sinfulness,

13:29

which morphs into a need to

13:31

punish myself for anything I've ever

13:33

done that's vaguely embarrassing. For

13:36

years, I hated talking about myself because

13:38

I hated myself. If

13:40

I'm at a social event and meet someone new, I'll be

13:42

like, So where do you live? How long have you been

13:44

there for? How do you like it? Where are you from?

13:46

What school did you go to? And if someone asks me

13:49

a question, like what I do for a living, I'm like,

13:52

Oh, uh, well, you know, I make

13:54

like podcasts or whatever. It's stupid. And

13:56

then I do rhetorical jujitsu and redirect

13:58

back to the other person. How

14:00

do you do for a living? How'd you get into that? How do you like it?

14:03

Humility is a big part of Christianity.

14:06

The good are humble, quiet, and

14:08

meek, while the evil are loud,

14:10

boisterous, and proud. As

14:12

Solomon teaches us in Proverbs, when

14:14

pride comes, then comes disgrace. But

14:17

with humility comes wisdom. So

14:19

if I don't want to disgrace myself, I

14:21

need to make sure the attention is always on the

14:24

other person. I need to stay

14:26

humble and never answer anyone's questions about

14:28

me. Because if I talk

14:30

about myself, they'd soon discover my fundamental

14:32

worthless piece of shitness and

14:34

be as disgusted with me as I am

14:37

with myself. Besides,

14:39

who would want to talk to me in the first place? Who

14:41

would possibly want to get to know me, befriend

14:43

me, or, God forbid, date me?

14:47

Sex was out of the question, even as

14:49

an adult, living on my own. As

14:51

Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, anyone

14:54

who looks at a woman lustfully has

14:56

already committed adultery with her in his

14:58

heart. So not only

15:00

is it immoral to have sex, to just

15:02

think about sex is a sin. I

15:05

held onto that even after I left the

15:07

church and graduated college. I

15:09

simply cannot imagine myself ever dating. When

15:12

I thought about the future, I pictured

15:14

myself getting frozen fish nuggets from Trader Joe's,

15:16

frozen hash browns and tartar sauce from Giant

15:19

Eagle, and eating them together as the saddest

15:21

fish and chips in the world while watching

15:23

through all of Twin Peaks, which

15:25

is what I did my first semester in

15:27

grad school, living with Craigslist roommates in a

15:30

single room in Pittsburgh. I

15:32

read an interview in The Cut with

15:35

a, quote, 58-year-old virgin who said that

15:37

the worst part about his life is,

15:39

quote, laying alone at night, falling asleep,

15:42

and then getting up in the morning and remembering you're

15:44

alone. I read that, and I

15:46

was like, yep, all right, here we

15:48

go. At

15:51

age 25, I started dating my partner,

15:53

and now fiancé, Grace. They're

15:55

the first person I ever dated. We saw

15:58

the movie Challengers the other day. The

16:01

Horny Zendaya Tennis Movie. About three tennis

16:03

players who fuck each other while fucking

16:05

each other over. On

16:07

the drive back from the theater, Grace was like, Wow,

16:10

Horny Zendaya Tennis Movie sure

16:12

was horny, don't you think? And I

16:14

was like, Uh, well, I just

16:16

really like the soundtrack by Trent Reznor and

16:18

Atticus Ross of Nine Inch Nails. They also

16:20

did the music for the social network and

16:22

Gone Girl and the Watchmen TV show. Right,

16:24

but the movie was also like, really horny,

16:27

right? Did it make you horny? Uh,

16:29

maybe, I don't know. It's just that Nine

16:31

Inch Nails actually released an album of instrumentals

16:33

in 2008 entirely through a

16:36

Creative Commons license, so you don't have to

16:38

pay any licensing fees. I actually use some

16:40

of their songs in my podcasts. Bowen, did

16:42

the Horny Zendaya Tennis Movie make

16:44

you horny? Why are you being

16:47

so immature about this? I

16:50

don't know what exactly happened in this moment, but

16:52

I felt like a child. I felt

16:55

swallowed by an overwhelming feeling of shame.

16:58

Shame about sex, about sexual desire,

17:00

and simply being a sexual being,

17:02

for having a body. For

17:04

a long time, I wish I didn't have

17:06

a body, that I was a floating consciousness,

17:09

freed from the shame and guilt of the flesh.

17:12

It's been seven years since I left Christianity,

17:15

but the effects are still there. These

17:17

mental grooves are so well-worn at

17:19

this point, it's basically instinct. Where

17:22

does my fucked up-ness come from? Well,

17:25

I think I can trace all of this

17:27

back to my dad at

17:29

the Oklahoma City Airport. The

17:35

story of my dad waiting for someone to

17:37

pick him up at the airport has taken

17:39

on in almost mythological significance to me. This

17:42

moment that sealed my fate years before I

17:44

even existed. Because as he

17:46

stood in the terminal, he also stood

17:48

at a crossroads. Is

17:51

there an alternate reality where Dave doesn't

17:53

pick him up, and someone else does

17:56

instead? Someone who isn't a Christian, and

17:58

my dad never converts? and my

18:00

life is so much better as a result. I

18:03

was born in Oklahoma and moved away when I

18:05

was two. I have no memories

18:08

of living there or of Dave. What

18:10

was it about this place and these

18:13

people that made my parents choose Christianity?

18:15

If I went there myself, if I

18:18

talked to Dave and the people who knew

18:20

them, visited the places they spent time in,

18:22

attended the church they worshiped at, and tried

18:24

to imagine what their lives were like 35

18:27

years ago, maybe then, I

18:29

could finally understand why things went the way

18:31

they did. Okay,

18:35

I'm standing in the Oklahoma

18:37

City Airport. I had

18:40

this idea where I would stand where

18:43

my dad stood, looking

18:45

around for someone to pick him

18:47

up, but I don't know exactly

18:51

where that would be. I

18:53

just seem just tired and wanna lay in

18:55

a bed. I think I'll go do that. Rolling

19:01

my suitcase across the parking lot, I

19:03

think about how my dad flew in

19:05

from Beijing as an alien, to use

19:07

the official terminology, while I

19:09

arrived from Pittsburgh as a US citizen. How

19:12

my dad was at the mercy of strangers

19:14

for transportation, while I have a

19:16

license and rental car. How

19:18

I would now retrace the route my dad

19:20

took from Oklahoma City to Norman, and

19:22

how the one thing we share is a sense of

19:25

exhaustion, of wanting nothing more than

19:27

a warm bed in a private room, at

19:29

the end of a long day in a

19:31

strange place. One,

19:33

two, three, four. ["The

19:39

Star-Spangled Banner"] Do

19:50

you remember what you saw looking at the window? I

19:53

think it's just highway,

19:55

it's dark outside. Red

19:57

Lobster, Chick-fil-A, McDonald's. Just

20:01

naming chain restaurants here.

20:04

All lit up in neon signs. Highway

20:07

signs. Get off.

20:09

Get on. Exit. Ice 35.

20:11

T-20, Ice 35 South.

20:14

13 miles. There we go.

20:16

University of Oklahoma is our exit. And

20:19

then we went along and

20:21

we got to Norman. I

20:29

think I was very tired. I fell

20:32

asleep quickly. Tell everyone

20:34

you know

20:38

someday.

20:51

The next day, I go to my parents'

20:53

first apartment. I just want to see it

20:55

with my own eyes. The building is

20:57

two stories and painted a pale yellow. With

20:59

a big porch a guy is sitting on. All

21:02

of a sudden. I

21:06

guess that's some sort of warning? Like

21:08

a tornado warning? Is there a tornado

21:10

coming? No idea. Anyway,

21:13

I'm going to do my parents' commute. Walk

21:17

to the old

21:19

chemistry building that they used to stay

21:21

at. It's

21:24

very quiet. Nobody, when you walk

21:26

on the street, you

21:29

even can hear your own footstep

21:31

and your own breathing. We

21:38

came from Beijing and

21:40

such big city. So

21:42

many people everywhere is crowded.

21:45

All of a sudden you want to place

21:47

just opposite. So you

21:50

can imagine that kind of shocking feeling.

21:54

This might be the chemistry building. This is the

21:56

old chemistry building. It's called

21:58

the chemistry building. annex. I

22:01

kind of feel very lost and

22:04

have no sense of being anchored

22:06

to any spot because I feel

22:09

I'm just parachute to the place

22:11

in the middle of nowhere. I don't

22:13

know anyone. You start with

22:15

a zero. I mean you are on ground

22:17

zero. Three or four stories and like

22:21

faded yellow brick. Some

22:23

like castle like turrets on the top.

22:26

Interesting. Some of the outside

22:29

is pretty corroded now. When

22:38

you said like you just like parachuted into

22:40

this place and you had zero, you started

22:42

at zero, you had nothing. Do

22:44

you think that's why like you relied so

22:46

heavily on the church? I

22:48

think so because you all started last

22:51

year. You don't have a

22:53

gravity. You don't have a

22:55

gravity. Life is so fragile.

22:57

That's how I felt. This could be

22:59

happening in a second. Just

23:02

turning upside down. I

23:08

visit the campus library and find

23:10

physical copies of my parents' PhD

23:12

dissertations. My mom's is

23:14

titled, Formation and Characterization of

23:16

Anchored Polymer Coatings on Illumina.

23:19

There's a Cheetos bag sandwiched between the front

23:21

cover and first page. No idea why. I

23:25

ask my mom about this later. Did

23:27

you leave a Cheetos bag in your dissertation? Maybe

23:29

as some sort of message to future readers? She's

23:32

like, what? No. In

23:36

the acknowledgments, which is the only section

23:38

I can understand, she writes, I

23:40

shall give all glory and honor to

23:42

God, all caps. He,

23:45

all caps, is my strength. I

23:48

throw away the Cheetos bag on my way out. I

23:55

throw away the Cheetos bag on my way out. The

24:02

first person I talked to in Oklahoma is

24:04

Dave, the nice gentleman with the warm smile

24:06

who took my dad in and brought him

24:08

to Christ. Dave

24:12

knew me as an infant and visited us in

24:14

Philly, which I have no memory of. My

24:17

parents always referred to him as my

24:19

yie yie, my grandfather, perhaps

24:21

in place of the yie yie in China I

24:23

never met. This

24:26

would probably be my first and only chance to

24:28

talk to him, at least since I

24:31

gained consciousness and the power of speech. I

24:33

wanted to know, who is this man? How

24:36

did he end up in charge of this Chinese

24:38

ministry that changed the fate of my parents' lives

24:41

and my life? Hello? Good

24:44

afternoon, boy. Hi,

24:47

nice to finally talk with you. How are you?

24:50

Well, I'm well. I'm going

24:53

to be 90 next February. You're

25:00

okay with me recording this? You're

25:04

recording it? Yeah, is that

25:06

okay? It's okay.

25:09

All right. But let me say

25:11

this. Sure. I found

25:13

that if you publicly

25:18

identify somebody, the

25:21

devil really can come in and

25:23

try to take away their

25:26

testimony. I would just urge

25:29

you that if you do

25:31

write this, that's honoring

25:33

to your mom and dad, but

25:36

you don't want the devil jumping on them.

25:38

So do you understand that? I

25:40

do, yeah. The way I

25:43

understand what Dave is saying here is that

25:45

since I'm publicizing my parents' story, I need

25:47

to make sure not to dishonor or slander

25:49

them because the devil is lying in

25:51

wait. Dave worked as

25:54

a campus minister in colleges across the US

25:56

and the world, in Nebraska and

25:58

Maryland, and I wrote a book. but

26:01

he spent the bulk of his career

26:03

ministering to Chinese international students at OU

26:05

as the University of Oklahoma is confusingly

26:08

nicknamed starting in 1987, two years before

26:10

my parents arrived. Did

26:13

you have any sort of like prior knowledge

26:15

of like China or Chinese

26:17

culture or the language or anything like

26:20

that? Well, no.

26:23

When the Chinese started coming

26:25

over here from mainland China,

26:28

they had never been in a church.

26:31

They had never met a Christian. They

26:33

had never seen a Bible, but

26:36

they came over here wanting to

26:38

know our culture. It

26:40

sounded like he almost stumbled into this role. He

26:43

saw a new population at OU, many

26:45

of whom were already curious about Western

26:47

culture and Christianity, and he

26:49

was happy to oblige. It was

26:51

clarifying for me to learn that Dave had been

26:53

a missionary in Kenya. I've come

26:55

to think of him as a sort of

26:58

domestic missionary, serving people from outside the US,

27:00

within the US. I

27:02

think somewhere close to

27:04

450 Chinese, closer

27:06

maybe even to 500 during

27:09

that time over the years. We

27:13

didn't rush him. We didn't want him

27:15

to become Christians to please us, but

27:19

we would love them. We'd take him on

27:21

trips. We'd have Bible

27:23

study with him. Among

27:26

these acts of love were practical things, like

27:28

picking my dad up from the airport. My

27:31

mom came four months later. Dave

27:33

picked her up as well. At

27:35

that point, my dad was ready to convert. Dave

27:38

and his wife came to my parents' apartment. My

27:40

dad got on his knees, prayed to accept

27:42

Jesus into his heart. And then

27:44

your dad looked up

27:46

and smiled, and he said, this

27:50

wasn't as hard as I thought

27:52

it would be. And

27:54

he was really happy. And

27:57

I looked over at your mom, and she was

27:59

crying. And I said, what's

28:02

the matter? And she said, well,

28:04

you're a Christian, and now my

28:06

husband's a Christian, but I'm

28:09

the only one that's not a Christian. I

28:11

just feel now same as the rest of

28:13

the line between me and Daddy. And

28:17

so that makes me mix

28:20

fading, really mix fading. You

28:23

felt like there was a line, like a

28:26

dividing line between you and Dad at that

28:28

moment? Yeah, because he became a

28:32

child of God. I'm not yet. So

28:35

it feels like we are now in a

28:37

different path. I said, well, be

28:40

patient. We'll get to that, but you

28:42

need to know what it's all about

28:44

first. Oh,

28:47

I love your parents. How long

28:49

after my dad came to Christ

28:51

until my mom came to Christ

28:53

as well? Oh, it

28:55

was only maybe a month or two

28:58

or three weeks. Over

29:00

the phone, I didn't have the courage to

29:02

tell this kindly old man who led my

29:05

parents to the path of Christianity, who then

29:07

raised me on that path, that

29:09

I rejected all of that and that I'm still

29:11

recovering. But then when

29:13

I go to him in person, I resolved

29:15

to tell him the full truth. Dave

29:18

is in an assisted living facility now. In

29:21

the lobby, I meet his son and daughter-in-law,

29:24

who had asked that I not record the conversation.

29:27

Dave had fallen recently and broken a

29:29

vertebrae. He sits in an armchair in

29:31

his room and wears a neck brace. If

29:34

he sneezes or laughs too hard, he can

29:36

hurt himself. After

29:38

a softball question, I force myself

29:40

to come clean. I'm

29:42

no longer Christian. How does

29:45

he feel about people he tried to lead

29:47

to Christ, who either didn't believe or later

29:49

left? Dave

29:51

smiles. He asks if I'd

29:53

heard the story of the prodigal son. It's

29:56

a classic, one of Jesus' most famous

29:58

parables, where a failed His well-sung

30:00

disobeys his dad and later returns to him, penitent

30:03

and willing to accept any punishment.

30:06

But instead, his dad forgives him

30:08

and welcomes him home. Dave

30:11

then explains that he has a daughter who left the

30:13

church. In high school, she

30:15

angrily confronted Dave with tears in her

30:18

eyes and told him, "'Dad, please

30:20

apologize to me for being a Christian.'"

30:24

I think I understand what she meant by that. It's

30:26

a way of saying, "'Apologize for making this

30:28

decision for me, for raising me

30:31

with this belief I didn't choose and

30:33

that I don't agree with. In

30:35

a sense, I'm asking him the same thing. Yeah,

30:38

yeah, why did you convert my parents?'"

30:42

His daughter left the faith. Dave didn't

30:44

try to convince her of anything, just kept

30:46

loving her and praying for her. And

30:48

after 20 years, she, like the prodigal

30:51

son, returned to the faith and to

30:53

her father. These days, she

30:55

visits him every week in the assisted

30:57

living facility. Dave

30:59

emphasizes again that he never forced

31:01

anyone to believe anything, that

31:04

if someone chooses to reject Christianity, they

31:06

need to be loved whatever their decision

31:08

is. But he also

31:10

tells me, "'There'll be nobody going

31:12

to hell who didn't have an opportunity

31:14

to accept Christ.'" He

31:17

says it in a way that isn't angry or spiteful,

31:19

just sad, almost kind. It's

31:23

getting late. Dave needs to take

31:25

his medication. We stand up. "'I

31:28

love you,' he tells me. Give my

31:30

love to your parents." We

31:32

hug and I get

31:35

it. I get why my parents

31:37

converted. This man is filled with

31:39

so much love and gives it so freely

31:41

to my parents, to

31:43

me, to all the people he

31:45

picked up from the airport and fed and sheltered

31:47

and helped get on their feet. Where

31:50

does his love come from? In

31:52

the moment, I'm convinced that it must

31:54

be something beyond what any human is capable

31:56

of. It must come from God.

32:00

The receiving end of his unconditional love, I

32:02

consider being the prodigal son. For

32:05

the briefest flash of a moment, I

32:08

consider returning. Can

32:10

I pray for you? When we were on

32:12

the phone, this is how Dave ended the call. I

32:15

didn't feel like I could say no. I

32:17

didn't want to disappoint my white grandpa. Sure.

32:21

Okay. Lord, thank you

32:23

for this wonderful invention, the phone

32:26

that Bo-Ann and me join our

32:29

hearts at the

32:31

throne of grace. And Lord,

32:33

I just want to thank you for

32:35

Bo-Ann calling and

32:38

I pray that the rest of his

32:40

life that he will

32:42

walk with you till he draws his

32:44

last breath. In

32:47

Christ's name, amen. Amen.

32:53

I talked to Dave on Saturday night. Come

32:55

Sunday, it's obvious where I have to go.

32:58

Quick voice memo, because I'm already late,

33:00

but I'm at the church, kind

33:03

of tired, woke up at 8.30, stayed

33:05

up too late last night, already late, but

33:07

gonna go to this Mandarin Sunday school. We'll

33:09

see how it goes. This

33:12

is the church where Dave led the Chinese fellowship,

33:14

the one my parents attended, and that I attended

33:17

as an infant until we moved away when

33:19

I was two. What did

33:21

this place mean to them? These are

33:23

people who had zero experience with organized religion.

33:26

What did they get from going? The

33:28

Chinese fellowship is now run by seven people,

33:31

seven Daves, in other words, three of whom

33:33

are Chinese and four of whom are white.

33:36

I spoke to one of the new white Daves over

33:38

the phone who told me that I could record the

33:41

service. But a few days later, while

33:43

I was cooking butternut squash risotto, he

33:45

called again and told me he had

33:48

found a podcast called Jesus Wept. Jesus

33:52

Wept is a podcast my fiance Grace

33:54

and I make, where

33:58

we analyze and... To be honest,

34:01

make fun of various topics related

34:03

to evangelical Christianity. We

34:05

process our respective religious traumas through

34:07

humor. In the most

34:09

recent episode, I went to a Chinese

34:11

church and recorded the service. Afterwards,

34:14

Grace and I critiqued the speakers and,

34:16

again, to be honest, made fun of

34:18

them. I told Grace about

34:20

how one of the speakers said that because

34:22

Paul writes that women shouldn't have authority over

34:25

men, she won't teach men in the church.

34:27

So then, basically, she was like, well, in

34:29

the church, I

34:31

will teach women, I will teach

34:33

children, but I will not teach

34:36

men except in specific circumstances.

34:39

Like what? I

34:41

don't know, but... Have you ever changed

34:43

a diaper? Maybe. Or...

34:45

Doesn't she have a fucking PhD? She has

34:47

a master's in divinity, yeah, from the seminary.

34:50

Which you can't teach. Yeah. I

34:52

don't know. See, an MRS div. New

34:56

Dave tells me over the phone that after

34:58

listening to the podcast, he's changed his mind and

35:00

won't allow me to record anything in Norman, which

35:03

is reasonable. I recorded a church service and made

35:05

fun of it, and he doesn't want me to

35:07

do the same thing to his church. In

35:10

the podcast, I talk about how I don't believe

35:12

in God. And as we wrap

35:14

up the conversation, New Dave says he

35:16

needs my word that I won't record anything.

35:19

He says, I know you don't believe

35:21

in God, but there must be something you can

35:23

base your word on, like your

35:26

Chinese heritage. Which

35:28

is kind of a weird thing to say, but I'm like,

35:30

sure. You have my word. See

35:33

you Sunday. When

35:40

I enter the church, New Dave is waiting in

35:42

the lobby. I shake his hand and

35:44

tell him I'm not recording. That

35:46

was a royalty-free sound effect from freesound.org,

35:49

although I do have the pink notebook I bought from

35:51

Target for $3. We

35:53

walk past an armed guard to the gymnasium

35:55

where the Mandarin Sunday School is held. It

35:58

seems notable that the Mandarin Sunday School is held in the middle of the day. isn't

36:00

in a dedicated classroom, but an echoey gym

36:02

with a basketball court. New

36:05

Dave introduces me to a group of Chinese immigrants

36:07

sitting around a folding table. They ask

36:09

if I can speak Chinese. I say

36:11

I can understand it okay, but not speak it that

36:13

well. New Dave is like, ah,

36:16

there's that phrase, ABC. And

36:20

I'm like, yep, that's me, American-born

36:22

Chinese. As a side note,

36:24

I really hate the phrase ABC. Just call

36:26

me Chinese American. Anyway,

36:29

New Dave says that since he can't speak Mandarin, he's

36:31

going to leave us to it. It's

36:34

nice to be away from white people, at least for a

36:36

little bit, to talk among ourselves

36:38

in the language I associate with

36:41

family, home, love. My

36:43

parents must have really craved that when they first came

36:45

here. Where else could they find

36:47

a Chinese community in the small town in

36:49

Oklahoma? Someone later tells me

36:51

that this church is usually the first stop

36:54

for new Chinese immigrants. People from

36:56

church are willing to give rides to

36:58

the supermarket, furniture for apartments, help with

37:00

taxes, and all sorts of essential services.

37:04

My mom still uses a set of bowls that Dave

37:06

got for her. When

37:14

the service begins, we sing hymns in

37:16

Mandarin. Again, this is not a

37:18

recording from Oklahoma, it's YouTube. The

37:21

speaker, an older white guy, delivers the

37:23

sermon in English. And like most sermons,

37:25

it's boring. I picture my

37:27

parents in these same seats, praying

37:29

the same prayers, singing the same

37:31

songs that I would grow up singing. Bowen

37:46

Wong. Coming up, Bowen

37:48

flies home and considers the question, maybe

37:51

it wasn't Christianity that messed him up

37:53

as a kid. That's in a

37:55

minute. Just gotta come up with a video when

37:57

our program continues. Craft

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value of investments may fall as well as rise, and

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you may not get back the amount originally invested. This

38:36

podcast is supported by washington.org. Washington,

38:38

D.C. offers visitors so much to

38:40

explore. Just ask Dayo, who

38:42

shared her experiences from a recent visit. What

38:45

was your favorite food all weekend? The Ethiopian

38:47

food at Sihay. And the first

38:49

place you would visit again? The bookstore, little

38:52

district books. What did you appreciate

38:54

the most? Really just like the genuine

38:56

kindness of everyone that I encountered this weekend.

38:59

Why should people visit D.C.? Well,

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D.C. is a place with such a thriving culture. Washington,

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D.C. has something for everybody. Plan your

39:07

next trip at washington.org. My

39:10

name is Abdi Latif Dahir. I'm the East

39:12

Africa correspondent at The New York Times. I

39:15

want my work to help our readers

39:17

understand what's happening here in East Africa

39:20

and see how it plays a role in the bigger picture. New

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you would like to subscribe, you can do that at

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nytimes.com. This

39:37

is American Life from a Heart Glass.

39:39

Today's program, Children of Dave, Bonemong's

39:42

pilgrimage to finally understand why

39:45

his parents decided to become Christians when they arrived

39:47

in America. We pick up our story

39:49

where we left off before the break. When

39:52

I fly home to Pittsburgh and tell Grace

39:54

about going to my parents' church and meeting

39:56

Dave, they point out that maybe

39:58

I'm just blaming Christianity for my life. own

40:00

problems. Maybe Christianity is just my

40:02

excuse to hate myself. It

40:05

gave myself loathing as shape and structure, but

40:07

it isn't the root cause. Maybe

40:09

I would have hated myself no matter what. Maybe

40:12

it doesn't matter what path my dad chose

40:14

at that crossroads in the Oklahoma City Airport.

40:17

If he never met Dave and never believed,

40:20

maybe I'd still have the same self-loathing. If

40:23

I grew up communist, like my parents,

40:25

maybe I'd be like, ugh, I'm such

40:27

a bourgeois, capitalist, worthless piece of shit.

40:29

I need to write another self-criticism and

40:31

do another struggle session. Thankfully,

40:34

I can answer the question of

40:36

whether I'd hate myself if I hadn't been

40:38

raised Christian by comparing myself with

40:41

my high school friend Andrew. Andrew

40:44

grew up in the same suburb of

40:46

Philly as me. His parents are highly

40:48

educated Chinese immigrants. We attended the same

40:50

school district and have the same circle

40:52

of friends, but he

40:55

was raised by atheist parents who were never interested

40:57

in Christianity or church. I asked my mom one

40:59

time, like, have you ever been to church? And

41:01

she's like, oh yeah, of course you've been to

41:03

church. And then what she really meant was that

41:05

we walked into a church one time and walked

41:09

out. So I sit Andrew down and

41:11

tell him that I want to conduct

41:13

a science experiment where you're the atheist

41:15

control group and I

41:17

am the ex-Christian test subject. Okay,

41:20

I understand that we have a sample size

41:22

of two, but just humor me. Andrew

41:25

has lived the life I always

41:27

imagined, a life without church or

41:29

youth group or Bible study or

41:31

retreats near Lancaster out in Amish

41:33

country. And so my

41:35

question is, in this alternate atheist reality

41:37

that Andrew was raised in, does he

41:40

also struggle with self-loathing? Does

41:42

he not like himself? I don't like myself. Okay,

41:45

all right, well, fine. But does

41:47

he dislike himself the same amount as I do

41:50

in the same way? Does he

41:52

do the thing where I ask someone endless

41:54

follow-up questions and if they ask me something

41:56

I do verbal jujitsu and redirect it back

41:58

to them because I hate to talking about

42:00

myself because I hate myself. So familiar,

42:02

I could say those exact same words

42:04

and that's exactly what I do. Like

42:07

if Andrew is meeting one of his colleagues for the

42:09

first time, he'll be like, what department are you in?

42:11

How long have you been in the university for? What

42:13

kind of research are you doing? What's your lab like?

42:15

Who are you working with? And if someone asks Andrew

42:18

a question, like what his research is, he'll be like,

42:20

oh, I work in biostats and then I just call

42:22

it a day. I just make sure as hard as

42:24

possible that they don't ask me any questions. I

42:26

don't wanna talk about it. Andrew didn't even

42:28

have to grow up Christian to hate himself

42:31

and for his self-hatred to manifest in the

42:33

exact same way. So where

42:35

is this coming from? Andrew

42:37

doesn't believe in sin or God. Why

42:39

do we hate ourselves even though we were

42:41

raised with such different beliefs? Well,

42:45

Andrew thinks the answer might be right in front of us.

42:47

I wonder, you know, with the science

42:50

experiment, maybe the main thing that's balancing

42:52

us, that makes us comparable is a

42:55

second generation upbringing. Our

42:57

parents are from a very specific cohort

42:59

of people who grew up

43:01

during the Cultural Revolution, went to

43:03

the best colleges in China, went

43:06

abroad to get STEM PhDs, and

43:08

got well-paying jobs in academia and

43:10

pharmaceuticals and biomedicine. And I

43:12

think that to me, make

43:15

me always kind of feel inadequate

43:17

in a way, right? Like I'll never be

43:19

able to do that. I'll never be able

43:21

to achieve that kind of, you know, rags

43:24

to riches kind of story, you know, because

43:26

I was never in rags. Even

43:28

my parents, my parents were the ones that kind of struggled

43:30

through that. So

43:34

we're more or less on the same page when it

43:36

comes to self-loathing. But what about

43:38

the shame I feel about sex and sexuality? What

43:41

about my inability to talk about the Hornies

43:43

in Dea tennis movie with Grace? Does

43:46

Andrew feel that same immense shame? So

43:48

then how did you feel about sex

43:50

morally? There's nothing wrong with it. I

43:52

think this is all somewhat funny that, like, a lot of

43:54

Christians will marry early, right, because they have to marry before

43:56

they have sex. But like, for people that don't grow up

43:59

Christian, like a consensual. Active sex is just like not

44:01

a problem. Andrew started dating when he was

44:03

15. I didn't start until a

44:05

decade later. When we tried

44:07

to isolate the effect Christianity had on me,

44:10

that's the word we kept returning to. Shame.

44:14

The shame I feel about having a body, about

44:16

being a wretched sinner in need of redemption. Andrew

44:19

feels none of that. The shame

44:21

goes to my very core, in a way

44:23

that Andrew can't relate to. I

44:26

told him about how, even today, when

44:29

I remember something embarrassing, I said or did

44:31

years ago. I'll still say out loud to

44:33

myself, because it's such a reflex at this

44:35

point. I'm like, oh, I hate myself. I

44:39

should kill myself. Like, I verbalize

44:41

that. You still say that. Yeah,

44:44

you act surprised. Have you ever

44:46

done this? Have you ever said

44:48

no, no? But I... Yeah,

44:52

that's intense. That's intense reflex. I don't have

44:54

that reflex. Are you telling me that you've

44:56

never said out loud to yourself, I hate

44:58

myself, I want to kill myself? You

45:01

never said that, Andrew. I've never said that.

45:03

That's the Christian difference, man. That's

45:06

the Christian... Yeah. The

45:14

Christian difference is a belief that my

45:16

existence is fundamentally wrong. The

45:18

Christian difference is a need to punish myself

45:20

for my existence. I

45:23

don't regret being raised Christian. I

45:25

wouldn't be who I am today otherwise. And

45:28

I'm incredibly grateful for everything my parents have done

45:30

for me. But in

45:32

this one aspect, I know I would

45:34

have experienced less pain if my

45:36

dad had stood at that crossroads in the

45:39

Oklahoma City Airport and chosen a different path.

45:42

I never told my parents about the damage

45:45

Christianity caused me. I didn't want

45:47

to make them feel bad or think I was blaming them.

45:50

I didn't want to seem ungrateful. But

45:52

now, it's what I finally decide to do. At

45:55

this point, it's the only thing I can do.

46:05

I was actually damaged by going to

46:07

church and being raised in church. Does

46:11

that make sense? Like, do you understand that? It's

46:15

heartbreaking to realize.

46:19

And of course, whatever happened in the

46:21

past, it's gone. It's a past, right?

46:24

But I just feel that we

46:27

could have done better. We could

46:29

have done better. Really?

46:33

Why do you feel that way? Because we

46:35

really didn't check on

46:38

how you receive the information.

46:40

We didn't really talk to you

46:42

that much, and we just received

46:44

it automatically without checking. And

46:46

we just blindly believed everything what the church

46:48

teaches us is right. You

46:53

felt like you blindly believed? Yes. Because

46:56

I mean that blindly not believe

46:58

what church is teaching, the way

47:00

they teach. Yeah. So

47:03

then, do you have any regrets

47:05

then about raising me and sister

47:07

in the church? Yes.

47:10

But after you said that to me,

47:13

yeah, I do feel I do feel

47:15

I didn't really pay too

47:17

much attention to how

47:20

they taught you, how they taught you,

47:23

and how that has print on you,

47:25

and how that manifests

47:29

in your overall

47:31

well-being. I

47:33

do feel very sorry. I

47:36

was not expecting this. I

47:39

always thought my mom and dad were a united

47:41

front, true believers. When

47:44

I first interviewed my mom about converting to

47:46

Christianity, she described it as the happy moment

47:48

when she joined my dad in the same

47:50

belief. I feel we are the same

47:53

people now. We are

47:55

the same people. We are equal footing. We

47:57

are children of God. But

48:00

when I came back to her a few months later... ...the

48:30

outside factors. You

49:01

are not bribed that

49:03

person to become a believer.

49:05

That's my point. Yeah,

49:08

I think that's a bribery. That's

49:10

a strong word, Mom. Yeah, I

49:13

do feel that's a bribery. You

49:15

bribe those people. You give them

49:17

free lunch, free rice, free stuff.

49:22

Well, how about all the free stuff that

49:24

you and dad got when you were first

49:26

in Oklahoma? I didn't really

49:28

think about that way at the moment. Now

49:30

I feel... Yeah. Over

49:33

the years, my mom's been really hurt by

49:35

people from church. She'd raised questions

49:38

about the Bible. Like, if God

49:40

created everything, why did He also create Satan?

49:43

Why would He allow Satan to tempt Eve into

49:45

eating the forbidden fruit? Why would

49:47

He even create forbidden fruit in the first place? No

49:50

one at church would ever fully engage with

49:52

her. They'd give her surface-level platitudes that never

49:54

satisfied her. There

49:56

was also a period when she was depressed. I

49:59

remember coming home for a few days. school and seeing my

50:01

mom lying on the couch with the lights

50:03

turned off and the curtains closed. My

50:05

mom tells me that while some people at church

50:07

helped during this moment, others weren't so

50:09

kind, and some actually seemed happy

50:11

that she was suffering. I think

50:14

now they believe, they already labeled

50:16

me as a non-believer. Wait

50:19

really? At church?

50:21

Yeah. Why do they think that

50:23

you're a non-believer? Because I

50:26

don't go to church anymore. I

50:28

do not participate in any kind

50:30

of church activities. Why

50:33

did you stop participating? Because

50:35

I don't get anything from participating

50:37

in all those activities. And if I

50:40

ask them questions, they give me standard

50:42

answers. I just feel I'm in a

50:44

circle, not going anywhere.

50:46

I don't really get enriched

50:49

or elided by doing

50:51

all those activities. She

50:53

hasn't been there since the pandemic shut everything down,

50:56

and is much happier for it. But

50:58

as my mom withdrew from church, my dad got

51:01

even more involved. He became a

51:03

deacon and spent more and more time at church

51:05

functions and less and less time at home with

51:07

his family. If someone needed a

51:09

ride to the supermarket, he would do it. If

51:12

someone needed a ride to the airport, he would

51:14

do it. My mom was not happy about

51:16

this. I feel he's like a robot.

51:19

He just does it automatically

51:21

when I'm with someone from

51:23

all directions. So

51:26

to the point that he's

51:28

completely crazy. So that is

51:30

the time I think the church can destroy

51:33

a family. Church can

51:35

really destroy a family because you

51:37

are not really thinking at

51:39

the same level, at the same level, on

51:41

the same page, and you

51:43

kind of just go

51:46

apart. So do you feel like

51:48

church almost destroyed our family? To

51:50

the point. Really? Yes. I

51:54

was really, really upset at one point.

51:57

So my mom finally put her foot down and

51:59

gave my dad an ultimatum. And

52:01

I told Daddy, you quit the ticket

52:03

now, otherwise we are not going to

52:05

have the same life

52:07

under the same roof. So

52:10

Daddy sent a letter to the church

52:12

that he's going to resign.

52:16

It was almost comforting, realizing I

52:18

wasn't the odd one out in my family.

52:21

I thought I was the only one who was

52:23

damaged by Christianity and who left the church.

52:26

I thought it was me against them. But

52:29

it turns out that my mom was actually on

52:31

my side this whole time. Who

52:33

knew? I

52:35

wasn't surprised that my dad gave in to my mom

52:37

though. When it comes down to

52:39

it, he puts family first. I

52:42

asked him once if he ever had any regrets. And

52:44

he told me this story about how when my sister

52:46

was a baby, he discovered that she'd

52:48

torn up an important piece of mail. My

52:51

dad yelled at her and made her cry. And

52:53

then he thought to himself, why did I do that? She's

52:56

just a baby. She doesn't understand what

52:58

she's doing. And he remembered

53:00

that moment forever. So

53:03

he's always been a kind, thoughtful,

53:05

reflective person who wants the best for

53:07

us. He's also always

53:09

been a true believer, going back

53:12

to the very beginning. June

53:23

1989. My

53:34

dad has been accepted to the University of

53:36

Oklahoma. He applies for his

53:38

passport and visa so that he can leave

53:40

Beijing. On the evening of

53:42

June 3rd, my

53:45

parents watch the news on their Landlords TV since

53:47

they don't have one of their own. There's

53:50

a TV announcement saying don't

53:52

go to Tiananmen

53:55

Square. They

54:00

go to bed. In the middle

54:02

of the night, we heard some

54:04

gunshots. And on the morning of

54:06

June 4th, they wake up. In

54:09

the morning, we were planning to

54:11

visit a friend to

54:14

bicycle to her home. On the

54:16

way, we saw a lot of

54:18

buses, you know, they were turned

54:21

around and blocked the road. And

54:23

also a lot of huge

54:26

trucks, like armored vehicles, just

54:29

parked along the highways

54:32

blocking the road. All

54:35

the government offices are shut down. The

54:38

entire city is shut down. To

54:40

get his passport, my dad now needs

54:42

a letter from his workplace saying he

54:44

didn't participate in the demonstrations. But

54:47

there's a problem. He had

54:49

to quit his job to apply for the passport. And

54:51

they're saying that since he doesn't work there anymore,

54:53

they can't provide him with that letter. My

54:56

dad is freaking out. He staked

54:59

his entire life on studying abroad. This

55:01

was his plan, his future, his chance

55:03

to leave his boring job in a

55:05

Jeep factory, living in his

55:07

tiny room in Beijing with no running

55:10

water or heating or cooling. Now

55:13

his future is crumbling before his eyes.

55:16

In this most desperate hour, my dad

55:18

does something he's never done before. So

55:21

I pray to God or

55:24

San Di, and ask San Di to

55:26

help me. That's

55:28

how I think I prayed

55:32

for the first time. Were

55:34

you specifically praying to the

55:36

God of Christianity at the

55:38

time? We don't have the

55:41

habit of praying, growing up.

55:44

We don't have the habit of praying

55:49

or talking to a God

55:51

or something. So it

55:54

just came natural.

55:57

I just laying on

55:59

back. and say, oh

56:01

God, help me. I

56:04

never knew this story. I thought my

56:07

dad's first encounter with God was in America. But

56:10

two months earlier in Beijing, my

56:12

dad naturally and spontaneously cried out to a

56:14

God he didn't yet know or believe in.

56:17

And then when his workplace finally gave him the

56:19

letter that allowed him to leave China, it

56:22

had to be God answering his prayer. So

56:25

my dad was already primed to believe. And

56:28

when he came to America, he would

56:30

have encountered a Christian eventually, inevitably.

56:33

So I think in my

56:35

case, I will meet someone else and

56:39

I will came to the face,

56:41

yeah. You would have

56:43

eventually been exposed to

56:45

Christianity and you

56:48

would have always, after having considered it,

56:51

accepted it. Is that right?

56:54

Yes, yes. Why? Well,

57:00

I think it's a fundamental truth. God

57:03

revealed to us

57:06

in the Bible. And then

57:08

everyone has to make a

57:10

decision either to accept it

57:13

or reject it. And

57:15

you choose to accept it? Yes.

57:19

So, when

57:37

my dad stood at the Oklahoma City Airport,

57:39

waiting for someone to pick him up, I

57:42

always thought that he stood at a crossroads, that

57:45

if Dave hadn't appeared, my dad

57:47

wouldn't have become Christian. But

57:50

I understand now that he was ready to be a

57:52

Christian. Norman's a small

57:54

town. He probably would have run

57:56

into Dave and his Chinese ministry eventually. Even

58:00

if my dad didn't go to Oklahoma, there

58:02

were kind Christians with warm smiles in

58:04

every city in America. So

58:07

the airport didn't matter. There

58:10

was never a crossroads. It

58:12

was a straight line. Do

58:16

you realize that

58:24

you have the most

58:28

beautiful things? Do

58:34

you realize

58:43

that we're floating in

58:45

space? Do

58:47

you realize that

58:56

happiness makes you cry? Do

59:00

you realize

59:10

that everyone

59:12

you know someday

59:18

will die? That's

59:23

story by Bowen Wong. He's an audio producer

59:25

living in Pittsburgh with his fiancée Grace Gilbert.

59:27

He came up with the title for today's

59:29

episode. Bowen's website, bowen.cool.

59:34

That's B-O-E-N.cool.

59:38

Who have already produced today by Lily Sullivan? The

59:40

people who put together today's show include

59:43

Thea Benin, Michael Comite, Henry Larson, Seth

59:45

Lynn, Catherine Ray Mondo, Safiya Riddle, Ryan

59:47

Romery, Alyssa Ship, Elise Spiegel, Christopher Sitala,

59:50

and Matt Tierney, our managing editor, Sara

59:52

Abderrahman, our senior editor, David Kestenbaum, our

59:55

executive editor, Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks

59:57

to Rebecca Curtis at the University of Oklahoma.

1:00:00

Austin Hua, Jenny Lynn, Manhong Liu,

1:00:02

and Jesse Nelson Greta Zeewe at

1:00:04

Red Cayman Studios. This is

1:00:06

our very last show with our production fellow Safiya

1:00:08

Riddle, who's done a great job here. She is

1:00:10

off to do reporting for the Associated Press at

1:00:12

her next job in Montgomery, Alabama. We

1:00:15

hope she finds a story down there she can come back and do here

1:00:17

on the radio. Our

1:00:19

website, thisamericanlife.org. If

1:00:21

you need something to listen to and a long drive during

1:00:23

the summer holiday, you can stream from our archive of over

1:00:25

800 episodes for absolutely

1:00:27

free. thisamericanlife.org.

1:00:31

This American Life is delivered to public

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radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio

1:00:35

Exchange. Thanks as always to our program's

1:00:37

co-founder, Mr. Troy Malatia. You know, he

1:00:39

is the worst babysitter I have ever

1:00:41

seen. Baby won't go to

1:00:44

bed, starts crying. Tori's technique,

1:00:47

he leans into the crib, looks in the baby's

1:00:49

eyes and says, Why are you being so

1:00:51

immature about this? I'm out of

1:00:53

glass. Back next week, there's more stories of This

1:00:55

American Life. Do

1:00:58

you realize that

1:01:06

you have the most beautiful face?

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Do you realize that

1:01:26

you have the most beautiful face? Find

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