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AI Day. Through

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communication, we have the ability

1:01

to connect and truly see

1:03

others. My name

1:05

is Matt Abrahams, and I teach

1:07

strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School

1:09

of Business. Welcome to

1:11

Think Fast, Talk Smart, the

1:14

podcast. Today

1:16

I look forward to my conversation with

1:18

David Brooks. David is an op-ed columnist

1:20

for The New York Times, a writer

1:22

for The Atlantic, and appears regularly on

1:24

the PBS NewsHour. He's the

1:26

bestselling author of several books, including The

1:28

Road to Character, The Social Animal, and

1:31

his latest book is How to Know

1:33

a Person. Welcome

1:35

David, I'm super excited for our chat today.

1:38

I'm honored to be invited. Thank you for having me on.

1:41

Excellent. Are you ready to get started? I

1:43

am ready, Willie and Abel. Excellent. Across

1:46

your books and articles, you focus

1:48

on the importance of connection and

1:50

relationships. I'm curious what drives

1:52

your interest in this topic and

1:54

what role does communication play in

1:56

fostering the connection you write about?

1:59

I wrote this book for two reasons. I wrote it partially

2:01

for And

2:19

so my joke is in high school I wanted to date this

2:21

woman named Bernice and she didn't want to date me, she wanted

2:23

to date somebody else. And I remember thinking,

2:25

what is she thinking? I write way better than that guy.

2:27

And so those were my values. But they

2:30

were not the normal values of society. So

2:32

I just wanted to become, you know, if you

2:34

hide yourself off from the emotional intimacy of life,

2:37

you're hiding yourself off from life itself. And

2:40

you're not going to be very effective in your job. There

2:43

was a study done by McKinsey where they asked

2:45

CEOs, why do people leave your firm? And

2:48

the CEOs number one answer was people leave our

2:50

firm to make more money somewhere else. And

2:53

then they asked the people who actually left

2:55

and their number one answer was my manager didn't

2:58

recognize me. And so

3:00

human beings need recognition. They

3:02

need to be seen, heard and understood. There's

3:05

nothing crueler than making somebody else feel invisible feeling

3:07

that you just don't get them. And

3:10

so if we're going to rebuild trust in our

3:12

societies, if we're going to have decent

3:14

politics in our societies, if we're going

3:16

to have businesses where people trust each other and can work

3:18

together, you have to get really good at being

3:20

able to say, yeah, I know where you're coming

3:22

to. I see the world a little from your point of view

3:24

and you can trust me. And doing that

3:26

is in part being open-hearted, but

3:29

partly it's a series of social skills. It's

3:32

being a good listener, knowing how to

3:34

argue well, knowing how to sit with someone who's

3:36

depressed, knowing how to host a meeting where everybody

3:39

feels included. These are just

3:41

basic skills that can be taught just the way

3:43

carpentry can be taught, this way sailing can be

3:45

taught. And in the book, I just try

3:47

to take people through the phases of getting to know another

3:49

human being from the first time you meet them to

3:52

when they're struggling from difficulty to what's

3:54

the deepest conversations of your life. I

3:57

appreciate you sharing your personal story for what

3:59

motivates you. the book and as

4:01

those who listen to this podcast know

4:03

we're all about skills around communication to

4:05

help people connect and I love that

4:08

you spend time itemizing

4:10

those. Before we get into

4:12

some of the specific guidance and advice

4:14

that you provide, I'm curious if you

4:16

wouldn't mind sharing some of the barriers

4:18

to connection. What gets in

4:21

the way and how can we remove some

4:23

of those so we can truly see people

4:25

and respect them? The first

4:27

barrier is egotism. Most of

4:29

us are too busy performing ourselves and thinking about

4:31

ourselves so we can't really think about a person.

4:34

The second barrier is anxiety.

4:37

We have too much going on in our minds that

4:40

we can't really think about the other. The third

4:43

barrier is we can't see that we're so

4:45

stuck in our own worldview, we

4:47

can't see from her point of view. And then

4:49

finally I think it's because we don't ask

4:51

questions. And the essential

4:53

skill of getting to know another human being

4:55

is being a great

4:57

conversationalist and especially asking great

4:59

questions. I want to come

5:02

back to one of the other barriers you talked about, this

5:04

notion of worldview and then

5:06

the other notion of our own ego. I

5:09

really enjoyed learning about your view

5:11

of empathy which is something

5:13

we talk a lot about on this podcast.

5:15

You break the empathy down into a

5:17

few components. Can you share those with

5:20

us and provide us with some guidance

5:22

on how to put them into action

5:24

so we can be more empathetic? So

5:27

the first essence of developing good empathy

5:29

is to understand you're wrong a

5:31

lot of the time and the second skill is

5:33

mirroring. I'm sitting with you and I'm catching

5:35

your emotions with my body so you're

5:38

anxious or you're angry or you're sad and

5:40

I can feel it in my own body.

5:42

I can just feel the emotion that's coming

5:44

off you and so that's called mirroring. The

5:47

second is called mentalizing

5:50

and that's the ability to theorize what you're

5:52

probably going through based on my own experience.

5:55

So it's your first day on the job and I used to

5:57

have a first day on the job and I know that you're

5:59

filled with anxiety. The your filled with joy Others

6:01

can be. Exciting place to work. Your said,

6:04

I'm overwhelmed. maybe of imposter syndrome? So I've

6:06

been through that and I can know what

6:08

you're going through and that's called mentalizing. A

6:11

third stage of empathy is

6:13

carrying. And so a con man

6:15

is really good at knowing when other people are feeling.

6:18

But. We don't say damn pathetic as they don't care. And

6:21

so I need to be able to care

6:23

affectively for you. And you can

6:25

measure your own natural empathy skills. They ask

6:27

yourself some questions. To.

6:29

People sometimes tell you go too far and driving

6:32

home your point. Or. Do they

6:34

argue? Feel comfortable showing up late to a meeting?

6:36

If. Those are two of you. Then you're probably

6:39

have natural oh, empathy skills. And

6:41

the other hand are social conflicts very painful

6:43

for you. And. Then you probably

6:45

have natural high empathy skills. But.

6:47

We can all get better. We can all get

6:49

better with training. And some of the

6:51

ways to get better is to read literature. You.

6:54

Get inside the minds of other people. Have you have a

6:56

novel going at all times? You just getting good at getting

6:58

inside the mind of other people. Trauma is

7:00

a great way to the most sympathetic people.

7:03

Have been some role playing. And.

7:05

Said those are two very concrete ways you

7:07

can improve your empathy skills. And

7:09

then the final one is just getting really

7:11

good at recognizing your own emotions, comfortable in

7:13

your own body. And

7:16

so people have gone to theaters, read

7:18

literature, Thought about their relationships, they

7:20

can just spot the emotions of people

7:22

around them and hence much higher social

7:25

observation skills. I think it's

7:27

really powerful to deconstruct empathy this

7:29

notion of mirroring mentalizing and caring.

7:31

there are very helpful the understand

7:34

these different dimensions. And I

7:36

really appreciate sharing the ways that we

7:38

can develop and recognize our own empathy

7:41

by. Looking. Internally to see

7:43

how we feel but also trying to you.

7:45

As you said, get in the heads of

7:47

others through literature. Through. Watching

7:50

and role playing other interactions. These

7:52

are things we can do to

7:54

hone and develop empathy which make

7:56

us. more available to

7:58

connect with others Next,

8:00

what is involved from your

8:02

perspective in terms

8:04

of presence and content that

8:07

makes for a true connected

8:09

conversation? So I ask

8:11

conversation experts this question. I got a whole bunch

8:13

of tips I put in the book. I'll reel

8:15

off a few of them. First, regarding attention, treat

8:18

attention as an on-off switch, not a dimmer.

8:21

So when you're talking to somebody, it should be 100% or 0%. Don't

8:24

try to 60% it and have 40% of

8:26

your attention on your phone. Be

8:28

a loud listener. I have a

8:31

buddy when you're talking to him, it's like talking to

8:33

a Pentecostal Charismatic Church. He's like,

8:35

yes, yes, yes, amen,

8:37

I preach. I

8:39

love talking to that guy. And some people are

8:41

loud with their voices, some people are loud with their

8:43

faces, they're emotionally reacting. And so I

8:46

love talking to those people. Another

8:48

tip is don't be a topper. If

8:50

you tell me you just had a horrible flight and

8:53

you sat on the tarmac for two hours, my instinct

8:55

is to say, oh, I know exactly what you went through. I

8:57

had a horrible flight a few months ago and I sat on

9:00

the tarmac for four hours. And

9:02

that sounds like I'm trying to relate. But what

9:04

I'm really doing is saying, let's stop talking

9:06

about you, let's talk about me and my

9:08

superior experiences. And so don't be

9:10

a topper. Another

9:12

one is don't fear the pause.

9:16

If I'm talking at you and

9:18

my comment is going to last 90 seconds,

9:20

at what point have you stopped listening so you can

9:22

think of what to say next? Only

9:25

about 45 seconds in. And so

9:27

if I'm saying something important, let me talk, listen to me for

9:29

my whole 90 seconds, then hold

9:31

up your hand and consider what I'm said. And

9:33

then after eight seconds of thought, then you can

9:35

respond. But don't fear the pause.

9:38

These are some of the ways you can turn a beginning

9:41

conversation into a really meaningful conversation.

9:45

I also have had the pleasure of interviewing

9:47

many conversational experts and I really like the

9:49

way you capture a lot of what they've

9:51

said in catchy phrases

9:53

that are memorable. The

9:55

loud listener is fantastic. We know

9:58

that listening is critical. demonstrating

10:00

that listening and engaging in that listening

10:02

is great. And the

10:04

notion that attention is 100% or nothing

10:07

rather than partial attention is so important.

10:09

I see it in my students all

10:12

the time that they're partially paying attention.

10:15

And this notion of not topping,

10:17

I'm sure you've heard of shifting

10:19

and supporting responses in conversation and

10:22

supporting is so important and not topping off.

10:25

And even another one, the one I like is make

10:27

them authors not witnesses. So when people are telling you

10:29

a story about their life, they don't go into enough

10:31

detail. And so if you say, well,

10:33

where was your boss sitting when she told

10:35

you that, then suddenly they're going into

10:38

detail. I have a friend whose

10:40

great skill is hiring people for his firms. And

10:43

he has a method he calls, take me back. He

10:46

says when people talk about their lives, they don't start early

10:48

enough. So take me back to

10:50

your childhood. And he hires

10:52

for what he calls spirit of generosity. And

10:55

so he thinks we're all sort of who we were

10:57

when we were in teenagers. And so

10:59

he says, take me back to high school. Who were you in high

11:01

school and how has that changed? And he

11:03

says, you really get a sense of the person's, whether

11:05

they have a spirit of generosity or whether they don't

11:08

have a spirit of generosity. You made

11:10

me a little nervous thinking about who I am

11:12

today versus who I was in high school. And

11:14

I don't know if I agree with your friend's

11:16

perspective. I don't either. I don't either actually. But

11:19

well, I love that idea of asking questions

11:21

to get more details. And that's really important.

11:24

So David, let me ask you this

11:26

way. Take me back to a conversation

11:28

you've had where you had the opportunity

11:30

to be with an illuminator and a

11:33

conversation where you've been with a diminisher. I'd

11:35

love for you to help us understand those

11:37

concepts in the context of conversation that you've

11:39

had. Yeah. So

11:42

an illuminator is someone who makes you feel let

11:44

up. They're curious about you. They ask a lot

11:46

of questions. You just leave feeling

11:48

that they really got you. And

11:50

a diminisher is someone who doesn't ask questions. They're not

11:52

curious about you. They just blather at you and

11:55

you feel invisible. Am I even here? And

11:58

so the goal is to try to be more like an illuminator. Are

12:01

there certain skills and behaviors that

12:04

illuminators invoke to really help

12:06

illuminate? Yeah, I think

12:08

a lot of it is A, it's the focus of attention,

12:11

B, it's the ability to be other-centered, but

12:14

C, maybe we can return to the art of

12:16

asking questions. And so I do think

12:18

question is another moral act because when

12:20

you're asking somebody a question you're showing respect,

12:23

you're showing curiosity, you're honoring them. And

12:26

so when you first know somebody, I like to ask

12:28

questions that make them comfortable. And

12:30

if I say they're proud of something, I'll ask them about

12:32

that. If they're wearing a sports team jersey, I'll ask them

12:34

about that. Or I often ask, where'd you

12:36

grow up? I travel a lot. So I've probably

12:38

been to where they grow up and it's a good way to

12:40

start a conversation. And then I'll sometimes

12:43

say, where'd you get your name? And

12:45

that gets people talking about their ethnic heritage or

12:47

their family background. And then as

12:49

I get to know them better, you can ask slightly more

12:51

personal questions. And so those are

12:53

things like, tell me your favorite unimportant thing

12:55

about you. But then as you get to

12:57

know people, you can really have conversations that

12:59

lift them out of the daily experience and

13:02

get them to see themselves in new ways.

13:05

And so those are questions like, and you have to have

13:07

trust before you ask these questions, but it's like, if

13:10

this five years is a chapter in your

13:12

life, what's the chapter about? Or

13:15

if we met a year from now, what would we

13:17

be celebrating? Or what

13:19

crossroads are you at? Most of us

13:21

are at some transition moment in our lives. So what

13:23

crossroads are you at right now? Or

13:26

what talent do you have that you're not using?

13:29

And these are all questions that get people to see

13:31

themselves in new. And then

13:33

suddenly you're having deeper conversations, the kind of

13:35

conversations you're going to remember forever. I

13:38

was at a dinner party several months ago

13:40

now and I asked the group, how

13:42

do your ancestors show up in your life? Like

13:45

we're all formed by our ancestors, our

13:47

ethnic heritage, and my grandparents. And

13:49

so that was a super fun

13:51

conversation where we all just explored a topic

13:54

together and learned about each other and

13:56

ourselves. I'm fascinated by the

13:58

value of questions for discovery. Murray.

14:00

When. I hear and that is. You have

14:02

to think about the level of connection, trust

14:05

and and respect you have. Before

14:07

you ask certain questions, In.

14:09

It questions can really be gateways.

14:12

To. Discovery about ourselves and

14:14

others that allow us to feel

14:16

a sense of commonality in connection.

14:19

Vivid. I know you do a lot of

14:21

public speaking and you certainly listen to a

14:23

lot of public speakers. What advice do you

14:26

have? to be a better public speaker? If.

14:28

You wanna know a couple my rules on public speaking?

14:30

One is. You. Have to do a trust

14:33

fall on the audience. Some. People are

14:35

too scared of the audience and they don't do

14:37

a trust for so the you have to fall

14:39

on the audience and a few so vulnerability before

14:41

the audience they will pick you up. A

14:44

second rule of speaking is the first

14:46

five minutes and people sit down. The

14:48

speech is just starting. Everybody

14:50

thinks his the speakers anxious. But.

14:53

The audience is anxious because they

14:55

don't know if the speakers connoisseur

14:57

be terrible. And so if

14:59

you can tell a few minutes jokes in the

15:01

top. Everybody can relax. This is

15:03

not going to South. This guy knows what

15:06

he's doing. And. Then they will be

15:08

relaxed for you. And. The final bit of

15:10

advice go on you tube and watch speeds and

15:12

he speaks is given by a guy named Brian

15:14

Stevenson. And Brand Stevenson is

15:16

famous for helping getting people added sale and

15:19

his when a wonderful morally focus life I

15:21

have great admiration. And just

15:23

watch speeches. You. Learn and important

15:25

fact. There is no such thing as

15:27

pudding too many stories into a speech. His.

15:30

Speeches or stories. Story story story

15:32

story with very few points in

15:34

between. When. He gets some points

15:37

across in the stores. So. Cram

15:39

as many stories as you can, And.

15:42

The way I do it as I look at how musicians

15:44

to a rock concert. And I watch

15:46

where they put the big songs in their repertoire

15:48

and they put at the end to they put

15:50

in the beginning. I'm a big

15:52

Bruce Springsteen guy. He's got a song

15:54

called Badlands which opens up the audience

15:57

emotionally. And. After sing that song as

15:59

kind of a. And so on. So many can really

16:01

hit them the with the big stuff. As they

16:03

been opened up emotionally. And. So stories,

16:05

stories, story and then hit them with the power

16:07

in the parent power at the end. And

16:10

you'll be a great communicate by and

16:12

Stevenson is somebody that in my Strategic

16:14

Communications class we show his work and

16:16

make the same point. You do that

16:18

through story You can move people and

16:20

really communicate and points the advice of.

16:23

A. Trust Fall I really like and

16:25

not only can it be through humor

16:27

it can be true and discuss of

16:30

story some interactive activity you do with

16:32

the audience. But. A very

16:34

powerful. In. Your Op ed

16:36

writing you often you stories among

16:38

other devices to convey complex ideas

16:41

in make your points more accessible.

16:43

What? Advice would you give our listeners

16:45

who find themselves needing to make their

16:48

positions in arguments more memorable and relate

16:50

a bowl and persuasive. So. That

16:52

they can do a better job. This.

16:54

Is a cause them to run. Bruner, Who says

16:56

there's two modes of thinking? As. Parody:

16:58

Matic mode and narrative mode.

17:01

And parenting manic must Our.

17:04

Writing a strategy memo, It's reading a

17:06

power presentation. It's easily reading and op

17:08

ed column or a legal brief. It's

17:10

making an argument for something. And parenting

17:12

matic is a good way to think

17:14

about things when you're making the case

17:16

for some strategy. Narrative.

17:18

Is Mode is what you really need to understand

17:20

another human being. You want them

17:22

telling stories? And so for

17:24

example, when even as a political journalists I

17:27

no longer ask people. What? He believed.

17:30

I ask people, how did you come to believe that.

17:32

And that way suddenly they're telling me

17:35

a story of somebody save their values.

17:37

Was. Always best to go in chronological

17:39

order. What? Happened this happened and

17:42

that happen unless happen then happen. And

17:44

so that people naturally think and remember

17:46

a narrative mode not parodied matic mode.

17:49

The. Advice to ask: how did

17:51

you come to believe is a

17:54

phenomenal bit of advice to help

17:56

people. Not just get

17:58

stories from others, but. To think

18:00

about how to create their own stories

18:02

that they tell for their information and

18:04

I thank you for that bit of

18:06

advice. David. Before we

18:09

and I like to ask two questions of

18:11

all of my guess that are the same

18:13

and then I create a third question that

18:15

specific in unique to each person. So are

18:17

you for answering these questions? Let's go for

18:19

tennis or right. So. How.

18:22

Did you come to believe that

18:24

being a journalist was the right

18:26

path for you? I. Read

18:28

this book called Paddy's in the Merit Aid seven. And.

18:30

New on to become a writer. And. I sort

18:33

of him a novelist and I thought I want to be

18:35

a playwright and I was starting out trying to eight six

18:37

in. I was a. Bartender. For

18:39

years cargo. And then I

18:41

got a job as a Police Report or for

18:43

the City News Fear of Chicago which is a

18:45

wire services covering murders and crimes and rapes. And.

18:48

Every day I came home with an

18:51

amazing story. And so I

18:53

covered A lot of very stupid criminal has covered one

18:55

guy who was working at. And.

18:57

He did an armed robbery at the work at the

18:59

Mcdonalds he worked at. And so they

19:02

all looked at him and said john, we

19:04

know you don't rob ya Mcdonalds and there's

19:06

another group of guys who broke into jail,

19:08

got hungry, and aid in a restaurant across

19:10

the street from the jail. And. They'd

19:12

in the window table. And so

19:14

they were not the brightest and so it was

19:16

just. I founded I come home with

19:18

the story and I saw pieces of the

19:20

world. That. I would never have seen

19:23

otherwise. And so I thought. Well, journalism at that.

19:25

Only fun. So I did that. Question.

19:27

Number Two, who is a communicator

19:29

that you admire and y. One.

19:32

Of the ones is frankly Oprah. If you wonder

19:34

how to be good listener. Watch. A

19:36

no brainer. be with the sound off. And

19:38

will You'll see as her face reacting with

19:40

every like when people are saying something happy

19:42

she's like grunting little bit some approval. And

19:45

when somebody saying something says he gets his

19:47

kind of silence that looks so forlorn. And.

19:50

Some, she's just a great example of

19:52

a listener. Over. is definitely

19:54

an amazing speaker in your advice to

19:56

watch your with the sound turned off

19:58

to see house listens is great.

20:02

I think we can all learn something by

20:04

watching our own video and watching video of

20:07

those that we respect with sound and without

20:09

to learn. My final

20:11

question for you, David. What are

20:13

the first three ingredients that go

20:15

into a successful communication recipe? First,

20:18

you have to be singing out of your depths, not out of

20:20

your shallows. And so I go

20:23

to these concerts and sometimes I'll see a concert,

20:25

I guess I'll mention your name, I went to a

20:27

Sting concert not long ago and the

20:29

guy was just going through the motions. There's

20:32

Bruce Springsteen to bring back my hero. He's

20:35

never going through the motions, he's singing out of

20:37

his depth, something he passionately cares about. And so

20:39

he might have written the song in 1974, but

20:41

it's like he's singing it for the first time. There's

20:44

some things that come out of our depths and not

20:46

out of our shallows. The second thing

20:48

is it's just super helpful to

20:50

be a little vulnerable. And

20:52

so I'll give you an example, a story I was teaching, I

20:54

teach at Yale for 20 years and

20:57

I held my office hours at a bar between 9

20:59

and 9 p.m. and 1 in the

21:01

morning. And one day a woman

21:04

who I'd been courting was going to come to New Haven

21:06

and tell me whether she was going to consent to marry

21:08

me. And I didn't say

21:10

all that to the students, I just said, I'm going to have

21:12

to cancel office hours, I just want

21:15

you to know I'm going through something.

21:17

And that night of the 24 students in the

21:19

seminar, probably 18 sent me an email saying, Professor

21:21

Brooks I just want you to know I'm thinking of you, I'm

21:25

praying for you. And that

21:27

little interchange, just that little hint of

21:29

vulnerability transformed the atmosphere in

21:31

that class the whole term. And

21:34

suddenly I wasn't just Professor Brooks, I was

21:36

just another schmoe trying to

21:38

get through life and suddenly they could relate. And

21:41

then the final thing I'll say is two

21:43

of the writers I assigned to my students

21:46

to learn how to write well are

21:48

George Orwell and C.S. Lewis.

21:52

And they were both English writers writing in the middle of the

21:54

20th century. But The key thing is

21:56

they both wrote for radio and so they wrote,

21:58

you had to be able to understand. Their senses

22:00

just hearing it, not reading and on a

22:02

page. And. So they would never use a

22:04

big word When a small word, Where Do. They

22:07

were just incredibly clear. And

22:09

we want writing to be incredibly clear.

22:12

We. Think it's clear the Us but it's not clear. Writing

22:15

and reading with that simplicity so they can

22:17

overhear usa just on the radio and get

22:19

a clear. That's a super powerful.

22:22

I've learned so many things from you

22:24

and your answer to that one. I

22:26

should be holding my office hours in

22:28

a bar. Second, that it's important to

22:30

not only be passionate as you mentioned,

22:32

but to be vulnerable and to be

22:34

very clear and focused in our language.

22:37

And reading out loud can be really

22:39

helpful. When I read for my audio

22:41

book, it was one of the most

22:43

stressful repetitive acts that I've ever done.

22:46

David. Sank you so much. it was

22:48

amazing to learn from you. You helped illuminates

22:50

lots of important ideas, One of which that

22:52

I'm very much taking away is that we

22:54

have to be humble in the presence of

22:57

connecting with other people. Were not as good

22:59

at listening as we think. we're not as

23:01

empathetic as we think and we can work

23:04

to be better. And thank you for the

23:06

specific bits of advice on what we can

23:08

do. This has been incredibly useful invaluable. Thank

23:10

you thank you! I've loved it so thanks

23:13

for having me on. Thank

23:16

you for joining us for another

23:18

episode of Think Fast Fuck upon

23:20

from Stanford Gsp to learn more

23:22

about connection and belong. Please listen

23:24

to Episode Number Sixty Four and

23:26

with Chris Carter. An episode number

23:28

One on One with Jeffrey. This

23:32

episode was produced by Jenny

23:34

Luna, Ryan Campus and me

23:36

Mad Abrahams. Music is from

23:38

Floyd. Please

23:40

find us on you tube and where

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