0:06

Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on

0:08

decades of professional experience, this podcast

0:10

tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more

0:12

in an honest way that's helpful

0:15

in healing humans. Your session begins

0:17

now with Dr. Ann Kelly and

0:19

Sue Marriott. Hey

0:27

everyone, welcome back to Therapist

0:30

Uncensored. I'm Ann Kelly.

0:32

And I'm Sue Marriott. And we

0:34

are wrapping up the conversation

0:36

about our book with the idea being that we

0:38

want to bring content of the book out

0:42

to everybody, whether or not you have the

0:44

book. It's valuable content, we believe. And

0:46

so we hope that you will get something out of it,

0:48

even if you never touch the book. But

0:50

also if you're reading along and things like

0:53

that, that hopefully this will be helpful to

0:55

you. We're really encouraging people to read it

0:57

in study groups. This is not a marketing

0:59

ploy. I promise the point

1:01

of the book is partly to build

1:04

community. And even if

1:06

you get one person and you both read it together

1:08

and then talk about it, I mean,

1:10

it's very easy. You just say, hey, let's

1:12

meet. I did this with

1:15

my oldest kiddo, just

1:17

the two of us. And we would read

1:19

and we would then come together at

1:21

a certain time and talk about the book. It was so

1:24

enriching. And the most enriching thing it

1:26

was, was about our relationship. We

1:28

made time for each other. It was an

1:30

excuse to get together. It was

1:33

beautiful. So it's a hard press

1:35

for whether it be this book or

1:37

any other book, actually, read it

1:39

along with somebody. It'll help you finish it and it'll

1:41

help you get the most out of it and it'll

1:43

build your relationships. So the other two,

1:45

you might have already caught, if not, feel free

1:47

to listen to the last two episodes. We

1:50

covered the beginning and then the middle. So

1:52

the last third of the book, I

1:54

described the second third as one of

1:56

my favorites. The last third

1:58

is definitely my favorite. Oh, wow, we

2:01

can't have three favorites. Well, it

2:03

was deepening or building security first

2:05

in one chapter within you, just

2:07

the focus on the individual. Then

2:09

the next chapter is deepening

2:12

security between us where we took

2:15

all this work and really applied it to

2:17

relationships. And then the

2:19

last one is deepening security among us

2:21

where we take all the information and

2:24

hopefully make it come alive and how you

2:26

could use it in how we could all use

2:28

this work more in society. So that's the

2:30

overview. Let's step into specifics. What

2:33

did you like about deepening security with us?

2:36

It's not like

2:38

I think we're so great and we're not somebody that

2:40

goes around saying we did such a good job. But

2:43

it's also healthy if we did something well

2:45

to say it. And so one

2:47

of the things that, you know what, guys

2:50

would not struggle with that. They would just be like, I

2:52

did this great job on this thing. Did

2:54

you see that thing that I did? You know what

2:56

I mean? I'm not criticizing

2:58

them. I'm saying we need to be better

3:00

at having this ego strength

3:03

to say it. Okay, so I'm saying

3:05

it now, which is that I really

3:07

love that what we do in the

3:09

book, kind of throughout, but especially in

3:11

this last section, is we go from

3:14

the intra-psychic is the way that therapists

3:16

say it, whereas this

3:18

self-reflection to the interpersonal. So it's

3:20

not just couples therapy at all.

3:24

It might be group therapy. It might be individual

3:26

therapy where the focus is more

3:28

interpersonal with the therapist. You

3:31

see what I'm saying? That like it's about what

3:33

happens between two people, not just, you

3:36

know, the depths of what's happening inside of

3:38

me. It could be coworkers. In fact, also

3:40

we've already gotten several reviews, which has

3:42

been so meaningful about that it's

3:44

helping people with their friendships, seeing

3:46

their friendships a little bit differently,

3:48

engaging in friendships a little differently.

3:51

That made my heart. Something that was our first

3:53

review is because we wanted it not

3:56

to just be about couples. We talk, in fact,

3:58

in the book, we talk about premiers. And

4:01

that everybody needs a primary and has a

4:03

primary and that doesn't mean that that's always

4:05

a partner that primary could be a best

4:07

Friend could be a sibling and

4:09

it's not always equal It means that you

4:12

might find somebody a primary and they're not

4:14

necessarily seeing you as their primary Oh, that

4:17

is so true Like even

4:19

like aging parents you might be the primary

4:21

for your aging parent, but they might not

4:23

be your primary That's a very easy example

4:25

very what it means is that who do

4:27

you call? Primaries who are you gonna reach

4:29

up and when something that when

4:31

you get the diagnosis? Who do you

4:33

call and it's really helpful to think about

4:35

it? And if it's not your spouse that might

4:38

be okay to you Absolutely. No totally right. It

4:40

might be your sister not your spouse or

4:42

might be honestly For

4:44

a lot like it might be your

4:46

ex spouse for a while That

4:49

as far as at least who you want to turn to because

4:52

that bond is very very strong and you're working on

4:54

a new relationship or in Polycules

4:58

and ethical non-monogamy there can be

5:00

multiple primaries or you can even

5:02

have different attachment statuses Within

5:05

your different relationships That's

5:07

really an important thing and we talk about how that

5:09

comes out Because what context you're in

5:12

can really impact what shows up in your

5:14

nervous system especially if you're in a relationship

5:16

over a period of time somebody that You

5:19

can go both ways somebody that was

5:21

secure But lands in a relationship that

5:23

activates a lot of insecurity can actually

5:25

move our internal process

5:28

Fortunately, the opposite is true and I

5:30

love this about couples work and

5:33

that's the next chapter But honestly,

5:35

I see it all the time

5:37

where individuals actually help each other develop

5:39

a much less

5:42

deeper secure way of being

5:44

together and It

5:46

actually moves the nervous system into

5:49

a more secure place And was

5:51

just laughing just to be Transparent

5:55

that we're recording this soon after the virtual

5:57

launch where we toasted with incredible

6:00

people and a wonderful audience.

6:03

So there's a tiny bit of champagne left

6:05

in my glass from our

6:07

one toast. So

6:10

I was sneaking over while she was talking and took

6:12

a little sip of champagne, so that's why she left.

6:14

Okay. Rest assured, it's like the four

6:16

sips, so it's not actually, I wish we could say that

6:18

we're tipsy during this, but we're not. We

6:20

could be though, because we are uncensored. We could

6:22

do whatever the heck we want. We could. And

6:25

another thing that we did about that in

6:28

that first chapter is we talked about different

6:30

therapies and different ways of

6:32

intervening that are non-traditional therapies, because all

6:34

of our growth does not happen in

6:36

the therapy office. Our growth happens

6:38

in a relationship. It happens

6:40

in our parent-child relationships, and it can

6:42

happen in dance. It can happen with

6:44

friendship networks. It can happen in

6:47

groups. So you'll learn what bottom-up processing

6:49

is. You'll learn about things that

6:51

you might have been curious about and how

6:53

they can affect your body, but also very

6:55

non-traditional ways that you can make movement, which

6:58

I think is extremely important. Yes,

7:00

that's something I also feel good about. We

7:03

don't, we get outside of just the white

7:05

European train track of how

7:07

people usually think about healing. We

7:10

just put our toe in the water. We wanna do

7:12

more of that, and there's people that do it way

7:14

better than us, for sure, but I'm

7:16

really happy that we're kinda moving in that direction.

7:19

And the other thing is that when

7:21

you were talking about relationships over time,

7:24

we make the point in the book that over

7:27

time, attachment isn't just what happens when

7:30

we're very young, and

7:32

that is a very hopeful statement, that

7:34

all our relationships across time, our

7:37

coaches, our peer groups,

7:39

our lovers, our partners, change

7:42

us and continue to rewire us, and

7:45

that we trend towards getting more

7:47

secure as we age, which

7:50

is wonderful. So that's great

7:52

news. And we love

7:54

this idea of earned security, that you might not

7:56

start there, But you work your way into

7:58

it. There are

8:00

people that have earned security meaning that the

8:03

don't and can buy it naturally. But.

8:05

Through. Your. Own very

8:08

hard work. therapy, Plumbing the depths,

8:10

looking at yourself, having new experiences,

8:12

new safe experiences relay suddenly that

8:14

year. really operating from a mostly

8:16

secure states that those folks actually

8:18

have a stronger ability to do

8:20

reflect a functioning and some of

8:22

the really great things that can

8:24

happen where that we're more aware,

8:27

but just because we've had a

8:29

practice that we've had a work

8:31

harder for it. So there's a

8:33

lot of hope in this related

8:35

to treatments and related. To this

8:38

progress. Over time. I'd. Like

8:40

to add the word. Engagement not

8:42

just read meant. Either the

8:44

word treatment. Even. Though that's what

8:46

he isn't. a purpose. Sounds like we're treating

8:49

a problem. that and broke his. And.

8:51

I think the concept as of that is a Pike

8:53

S and the Book. And lots of people's training

8:55

is like an hour and he and seeing. Where.

8:58

Building or Growing to. This isn't a

9:00

book about sixteen. And. He

9:02

is about ceiling does attachment.

9:05

Places. In the ass. That.

9:07

Continue to activate our body ways.

9:10

That are painful in relationships

9:12

for sure. But in.

9:14

Addition to his such as that

9:16

and rolling in steeping themselves as

9:18

people. And as a is our connections.

9:21

And like a headless saying, if we're not

9:23

growing, were dying that is like. True

9:25

and Life rates. I really love that

9:27

it reminds me of the book. Something.

9:30

About cure by he like flair.

9:33

Who. Really makes the same plane

9:36

as is such a beautiful

9:38

way of this focus. This

9:40

medicalized focus on cure. And.

9:42

this is also western european

9:44

way of thinking that the

9:46

universe a diagnosis and as

9:48

a cure and we need

9:50

a six it's verses this

9:52

embracing of all of this

9:54

beautiful difference and are healthy

9:56

adaptations to adversity and that

9:59

that been of us. And yeah,

10:01

it doesn't mean that we might not want to

10:03

continue to grow and be more expansive and the

10:05

way that we can be close with people and

10:07

things like that. But like you're saying that that

10:09

doesn't, we don't have to medicalize

10:11

it. Yes, yes.

10:13

Well stated. We want

10:16

to un-medicalize it. It's already kind of

10:18

medicalized. True. Diagnosis and all

10:20

those things. Well, we should bring us

10:22

to our next chapter. Often

10:24

people walk into a therapist

10:28

office per couple's therapy or into

10:30

happy hour or coffee with a friend

10:34

when trouble is brewing in a

10:36

relationship, focusing on what's the problem

10:39

and what's the answer. And oftentimes we're looking

10:41

across the aisle at the other person and

10:43

like, how do I deal with this person?

10:46

Or we're looking at ourselves, why am I

10:48

the problem? Basically, it's like this, it's

10:50

a tendency to look for a problem

10:53

rather than deepening our understanding what's going

10:55

on. And the

10:58

chapter about deepening security among us

11:00

is about how do you

11:02

recognize what's going on, not from a pathological

11:05

place, but from a

11:07

deep, compassionate, insightful, aha

11:09

place so that both

11:12

yourself and whomever it is that you're working

11:14

on in the between space, get

11:17

to a deeper landing. Is

11:20

that too obscure? No, no,

11:22

not at all. I love what you're saying. It's

11:24

like, we're not trying to pathologize, right? We're trying

11:26

to understand and take it to a different level.

11:29

Get out of the medical list. You know, there's

11:31

actually a sign of insecurity, honestly, for any of

11:33

us if we recognize that. And that is that

11:37

we have to find the problem to fix it when

11:40

we have to land in a fix

11:42

it place versus being curious versus

11:45

being mindful versus being

11:47

exploratory versus being

11:49

expansive. I guess part of

11:52

what we're saying is that we

11:54

can have extremely secure

11:56

relationships that are not necessarily

11:58

nice and neat. state, and

12:00

that doesn't mean they're pathological. They're not supposed

12:02

to be nice and neat at all times.

12:05

Because what happens is that we think it's supposed

12:07

to be nice and neat, we get all activated

12:09

that there's a problem, which then pulls us all

12:11

away from each other in a worse

12:13

state rather than, I think,

12:16

finding curiosity. Like

12:18

what we're looking for is finding

12:21

the state of curiosity and openness

12:23

and wonder and noticing

12:26

that it's activating, why. And when

12:28

we can move into that state,

12:30

we can really build so

12:33

much more insight in ourselves that's much deeper than

12:35

the current problem. Right.

12:37

And the story that we have about

12:40

the problem is the problem. So

12:43

he never does that. You

12:45

know, like for us to begin to

12:47

not trust our narrative so much, and

12:50

that doesn't mean not trusting yourself. As a

12:53

matter of fact, the better you get at

12:55

this, you're going to trust yourself more because

12:57

you're going to know what parts of yourself

12:59

to tune into and that you

13:01

can rest into versus all the

13:03

noise of these both implicit

13:05

models that we carry with us, but also just

13:08

our brain has a tendency when we feel bad

13:10

to make up a story and like make it

13:12

all make sense. And

13:14

especially if we're distressed relationally, that's

13:16

going to trend towards that

13:19

it's their fault or like you're saying, it's I'm

13:21

a piece of crap. You know, it's

13:23

like a hot potato. It's his fault or my fault or your

13:25

fault or her fault or somebody's fault.

13:28

And what you're saying and what the story

13:30

in the book is about is really

13:33

working to get back into that in between

13:35

space, which is where social engagement is, which

13:37

is where safety is, and which is

13:39

where oxytocin is. What do you think

13:42

that happens this chapter that of course is why

13:44

I liked it so much is we actually give

13:46

an insight into couples therapy and

13:48

we show the Mars model, which

13:50

you've heard about, but how it can be

13:52

used in a couple

13:55

situation, not necessarily only in

13:57

therapy, but to kind of recognize these patterns

13:59

and how they go together. And one of my

14:01

favorite parts of that chapter because it's so

14:03

real, it really is real,

14:05

and that is showing

14:07

what it's like for two people

14:10

instead of fixing a problem, getting this light

14:12

bulb and having this deep disarch, and then

14:14

all of a sudden really going deeper together

14:16

and to find this next part of

14:18

their relationship rather than trying to fix

14:21

and get back to where they were. There's this

14:23

movement to this deeper level that

14:25

these two individuals and

14:27

the couple have never been on and

14:30

it's because of the the work

14:32

in between, right, like an example

14:34

of somebody being really

14:37

difficult with a vulnerability and shutting that

14:39

down, becoming vulnerable with their partner and

14:42

that bringing them closer instead of

14:44

further apart. I get to

14:46

see that all the time and to

14:49

help and fight that that's really

14:51

real I think it's important. Yeah

14:54

it was really exciting to do that and you did

14:56

a fabulous job with the group therapy. Hey

15:10

every now and then we want to remind everybody that

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incredible opportunities and our very

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first sponsor ever that has continued to

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be our sponsor I wanted to

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give you an update on them because we are continuing

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to use them that is AG1 and I

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still use it daily it's part of our morning

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routine and here's why we want to make

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while, you will certainly appreciate how hard stress

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anything that we can do to reduce stress

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is very good. And we

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also, I'm sure, appreciate how important our

16:34

gut biome is. And it's always really

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hard to figure out what to do

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to help your gut biome. You

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can definitely hear it affects mood, it affects

16:42

thinking, and it affects, you know,

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it's basically our second brain. But it's

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17:33

and then the last chapter. The

17:35

last chapter is deepening security

17:37

among us. And that's where we

17:39

go societal. And that's

17:42

what we're talking about, about like, we all

17:44

need this right now, because there

17:46

is a lot of what we

17:49

call collective hijacking of our amygdala's.

17:52

Absolutely. So, yeah, under threat,

17:55

we go from connection and

17:57

social engagement to selfishness, basically.

18:01

because we've got to take care of ourselves.

18:03

Or here's the problem with empathy is

18:05

that you know part of what we

18:08

protect are people within our circle. So

18:10

I might be fine with you but

18:12

you threaten my kid I'll freakin hurt

18:14

you right? So all of a sudden

18:16

my circuits internally switch and

18:19

I will activate because

18:22

of empathy. So in

18:24

other words empathy and oxytocin aren't necessarily the

18:26

only good. I mean that they aren't only

18:29

good. They serve a certain purpose

18:31

and it's part of what's happening

18:33

actually. We begin to identify with

18:35

a political party or with

18:38

a group or with a position and then

18:40

people that are in the opposite position

18:42

or political party are seen as

18:44

a threat and the more

18:46

they're seen as a threat the more we disregulate

18:49

and begin to see things simplified and

18:53

very complex things become very easy

18:55

and we become stupidly certain.

18:57

We make a complex

19:00

problem very simple which

19:02

means that it's limbic thinking. I think

19:04

when you say stupidly simple we

19:06

don't necessarily mean stupidly intellectually. What

19:08

you mean is we become activated

19:11

in a really simplistic

19:13

way and it we lose access

19:15

when we're doing that we lose

19:17

access to our frontal part of our

19:20

mind where we can think wisely. So it

19:22

really has nothing to do with intellectual functioning

19:24

zero. It just really means oh

19:26

we can't find that part of us

19:29

that can think more complexly and we

19:31

need that part. We all need to

19:33

be thinking complexly not emotionally driven. Right

19:35

we're calling it the certainty virus and

19:40

it's a call towards moving

19:43

back into nuance and moving back

19:45

into discernment which

19:47

is using our full mind and it

19:49

also requires emotional regulation because we have

19:51

to then hear things we don't agree

19:53

with and listen and be

19:56

impacted so that we can stay in

19:58

the conversation and impact. This is

20:00

not a become a doormat. This

20:03

is not rollover. This is not dissociate.

20:05

And this is not go punch somebody.

20:08

It is that middle space which is way

20:11

harder than any of the things I just mentioned.

20:14

So that's secure relating on a community

20:16

level. Yeah, so one

20:18

of the things that we talk

20:20

about is unmasking what happened in

20:22

leadership for all of us. It's

20:25

not looking at one leader being bad and

20:27

the other leader being good. That's actually not

20:29

the case. Like any leader can

20:31

have an impact in their brain that is

20:33

not positive for us as a community. And

20:37

we talk about the impact

20:39

of leadership on our

20:42

brains can actually look just like brain damage.

20:44

Not leadership. It's the impact of power.

20:46

Oh, same word. You're right. You're

20:49

right. And you're right that it's not, this isn't a

20:51

political party. This really has to do with that. As

20:53

you rise in power that

20:56

you literally lose your

20:58

mirror neuron circuits where that

21:00

like if you walk in and somebody's uncomfortable, you

21:02

begin to just not notice and not care. And

21:05

then in doing that, then you're going to get less

21:08

feedback. And it becomes this

21:10

feedback loop where that you're around more

21:12

and more people that are subservient and

21:15

are just mirroring back to you what you

21:17

want, which again, it creates

21:19

this deficit. So yeah,

21:22

they call it that it's as severe

21:24

as a mild traumatic brain injury. So

21:27

one of the important outcomes of that is

21:30

that anybody that is in leadership

21:32

needs people questioning them. And

21:34

if you don't have healthy people giving you

21:36

feedback and challenging you, then that

21:39

is not disloyalty. We need that in order

21:41

to keep the other parts of our mind

21:43

activated and not to be on that. So

21:46

we getting back to the certainty virus and

21:48

it didn't matter which, which part of

21:50

the aisle you land on, you need

21:52

people giving you opposite feedback because the

21:54

only way we can work collectively with

21:57

our full mind, Just like in a

21:59

couple is. That we need Aspects

22:01

of been able to understand from.

22:03

Opposite perspective in order to

22:05

live to our fullest potential.

22:08

And. So it isn't about picking a

22:10

leader is about all of us really

22:12

learning how to securely relate one another

22:14

so that we build strong connections that

22:17

can be powerful. Learn. I savored him.

22:19

It is. I saw. Not.

22:21

Very long ago is that this

22:23

little tiny boats. And.

22:26

Underneath it is a real images. Is

22:28

this Huge way? It. And.

22:31

The camps in is it People

22:33

could only understand. That. Our

22:35

leader is the boat. And

22:37

we're the whale. And.

22:39

I thought about that and I think

22:41

of this we to quit dividing by

22:44

leadership. And. Instead, stay

22:46

on principle and policy.

22:48

And fighter connections or what we

22:50

all really see that we need

22:52

together. Then. That

22:55

in the one most powerful

22:57

ways. Of directing the seemingly

22:59

all want to see in our in our

23:01

country and our world. Now that's a really.

23:04

Super. Powerful in in Sicily. insisting.

23:06

it also makes me think it's

23:08

not just leadership, it's also whatever

23:10

groups you belong to, whatever sub

23:12

communities you belong to, whatever you

23:14

know, your that orientations, you know,

23:16

whatever collectivism that you're an. That.

23:19

You want to look for

23:21

discernment. You. Know the

23:23

more pressure you have to carry the

23:26

party lines and are you better not

23:28

say that are in a you might

23:30

get kicked off the rast that you're

23:32

you're much more vulnerable on those ras.

23:35

Because. It can become a circular firing squad

23:37

a little bit where this policing of making

23:39

sure that you're holding the right position and

23:41

things like that. And that's a

23:43

natural thing, so we're not criticizing even folks

23:45

that are kind of. Because.

23:48

the sulks an indefinite position are really trying

23:50

to protect something and ace think that they're

23:52

doing it right in there think are for

23:55

a cause is are holding a really important

23:57

value that are fighting death threats that but

23:59

they need around them. They

24:01

need people to keep

24:03

introducing nuance. It's like, well, this, I agree

24:05

with this, but I think you're stating it

24:08

too strongly. Like they need

24:10

the pushback. So if you're the person

24:12

that is the one driving and somebody's

24:14

pushing back, we're encouraging you to listen.

24:16

So as a

24:18

group therapist, if everybody in the group is agreeing

24:21

to something, my heckles go

24:23

up. I know something's up. There's no

24:25

way that six or eight or ten

24:27

or fourteen people can have the

24:29

exact same feeling about an issue. It's

24:32

just impossible. Unless we get

24:34

it a really black or white, right or

24:36

wrong. Right, but we think we all agree.

24:39

So when I hear that,

24:41

that's the first thing that I do is

24:43

I go for what's not being said.

24:45

Something's not being said and

24:48

we wait and we look for

24:50

it and then finally somebody will say, well, it's

24:52

not that I totally, you know, no, okay, now

24:54

we're cooking. Well, you know, I just, I didn't

24:56

want to say it because it seemed like everybody

24:59

was on board. So, okay, great.

25:01

And that is going to put you in

25:04

a much more sturdy boat because I guarantee

25:07

you once somebody says it, then you're going

25:09

to get more of it. And now whoever's

25:11

the leader, let's just say that was a

25:13

political group or a civic

25:15

organization. Now the leader is going to

25:18

have a much better idea where their

25:20

group actually is and the ideas

25:23

and stuff that come out of a more complex

25:25

system are going to be way better than, you

25:27

know, a whole bunch

25:29

of people chasing a flag, somebody carrying

25:31

one flag that is not going to

25:33

be sustainable because there's not the collective

25:36

mind in that. And

25:38

to wrap that is we have survived because

25:41

of our ability to collaborate and to

25:43

connect, not because of our

25:45

ability to have one position lead the

25:47

show because we

25:50

need everyone's strong mind to

25:52

solve really hard problems

25:54

like climate change or

25:56

immigration, no more student

25:58

protests. of anything without

26:01

complexity and we need each other and

26:04

we need to be able to tolerate

26:07

that really difficult part of ourselves

26:09

that wants to be right and

26:11

to wrap it all in one value and

26:14

then that's the answer. So

26:16

the last thing would be

26:18

that if you're listening and you maybe

26:20

recognize that you're caught holding

26:23

the flag and carrying the weight

26:26

that we are just sending you a lot

26:28

of love and thank you for working so

26:30

hard and this didn't

26:32

happen overnight and it's not up to

26:34

you alone to solve and

26:38

there are people that can carry this with

26:40

you and the more people that are carrying

26:42

it with you the stronger

26:44

your position is going to be. There's

26:47

a saying you can only go as

26:49

quickly as the slowest person and I'm

26:52

not necessarily saying that from politically. I

26:54

know that sometimes you have to push in

26:56

order to make change but I just

26:59

want to kind of I guess end it by

27:01

speaking to the person. A

27:03

lot of it is young people that are

27:05

so earnest and that are working so hard

27:08

and carrying the weight which is good

27:11

and you're making change and you're making

27:13

movement but just it's also like

27:15

this didn't happen overnight. It's not going to be

27:17

solved overnight. All you

27:20

have to do this is a Loretta

27:22

Ross thing that you're just one chain

27:24

in human rights and human justice. There's

27:27

a huge long heavy chain before you and

27:29

it's going to keep going in front of you

27:32

and we're going to just have to do it together.

27:36

I think that's it and if you have

27:38

been reading along with us the thing that

27:40

you can do for us if you appreciate

27:42

this content we're going to ask you to

27:44

please go to whatever your book buying

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place is Amazon or

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Goodreads and give us a reading and

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review. It will help other people

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find this content and we really need

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you to Do that for us. We

27:58

Would really appreciate it. Then the

28:00

other thing is an item. work in

28:02

our tails off and we've been through

28:04

the slots and I'm sure that many of

28:06

you will be happy that you will not

28:09

have the here so much about the

28:11

book Now I'm sure that that's probably true,

28:13

but also we will be happy to not

28:15

have to be. It's a is vulnerable

28:17

in it's exposing to be. Putting.

28:19

Out something like this. It really

28:22

is and matters a lot, but

28:24

where I'm advocating that we take

28:27

a break and that we model

28:29

balance for every bussey, so we

28:31

might be playing some. Replays:

28:34

Or have a lot will have it.

28:37

Will this take as many replies as

28:39

we need to restore and rejuvenate and

28:41

just know that we're still here and

28:43

that we'll talk again or I or

28:46

thank you for joining us and. Kelly

28:58

Sumerian Podcasts.