0:00

Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode

0:02

of Theology in Raw. My guest today

0:04

is Dr. Yousuf Alkuri, who is a

0:06

professor at Bethlehem Bible College. Yousuf was

0:09

born and raised in Gaza to

0:12

a family that has

0:14

a long heritage of serving in the priesthood

0:16

of the Greek Orthodox Church. He

0:19

received his MDiv from

0:21

Alliance Theological Seminary in the United States

0:23

and his PhD from Vriah University in

0:27

Amsterdam in the Netherlands.

0:29

His PhD thesis was

0:31

titled, The Kingdom of God

0:34

and Empires, Contemporary Palestinian Christian

0:36

Contextual Biblical Interpretation. I asked

0:39

Yousuf to come on the podcast to give us

0:41

a firsthand account of what life

0:43

was like growing up in Gaza and then

0:45

now living in the West Bank, both in

0:47

terms of the current conflict, but also just

0:51

what it was like growing up in

0:53

a part of the world that is

0:55

getting a lot of attention these days.

0:57

So I really enjoyed this conversation. I

0:59

most of all enjoyed the Christ

1:01

centeredness of Yousuf and

1:03

his contagious

1:05

humility and grace.

1:08

So please welcome

1:11

to the show

1:14

the one and

1:16

only Dr. Yousuf

1:19

Alkuri. Yousuf, it's such

1:21

an honor to have you on Theology in Iran.

1:23

Why don't you begin? I would just love to

1:25

hear what was it like being

1:28

raised in Gaza? Thank

1:30

you for having me. It's an honor.

1:32

What feels like growing

1:35

up in Gaza. I

1:37

can still smell the sea

1:39

wind. I can feel

1:41

the sands of the shore. I can

1:44

hear the crowds in

1:46

the markets. It's a vibrant city

1:48

with a lot of culture and

1:50

history and lively

1:52

people who love life and

1:55

enjoy and appreciate what

1:57

God has granted them in a land. that

2:00

they are indigenous to. So

2:02

I grew up in Gaza in this atmosphere

2:07

of appreciation and deep rootedness

2:09

to the land and

2:12

loving the Mediterranean. The

2:14

people would go every single morning to

2:16

swim. I remember growing

2:18

up, going at 5 AM to the

2:20

beach, just to take a soak

2:23

in the water for an hour or two

2:25

and go back, take a shower, go

2:27

to school, off to work. That's

2:29

the reality of many Palestinians who live

2:32

in Gaza. They are enjoying their

2:34

land. Kelly, give us a time frame.

2:36

What year were you born? I was born

2:38

in 1986, a year

2:40

before the first civil uprising

2:43

in Tifada. And I

2:45

hope now we can even just

2:47

fix this misunderstanding what Tifada really

2:49

means. Because Tifada is

2:51

a very positive movement of

2:54

civil disobedience and uprising against

2:57

military occupation that was brutal

2:59

against the Palestinian indigenous people

3:01

in Gaza and in the

3:04

West Bank, Jerusalem, and historically

3:06

Palestine in general. So

3:08

I grew up during the

3:11

first in Tifada, where

3:13

the Israeli military had

3:15

frequently broke into our neighborhood,

3:17

even our house, just

3:20

looking for freedom

3:22

fighters or Palestinian youth.

3:26

One of the stories that I still remember, one

3:29

day a unit of Israeli military

3:32

broke into our house. They turned

3:34

everything upside down. And

3:36

my grandmother was quietly, I think

3:39

she was maybe in her

3:41

mid-60s or early 70s, quietly

3:44

baking local bread. And

3:47

while the soldiers are leaving the

3:50

house, she called on

3:52

one of them and she handed him a

3:54

loaf of bread. And he told him,

3:56

maybe you are hungry, any friend, please use

3:58

the, unlike the other. feed on

4:00

this. So,

4:03

during the first Intifada, you got to

4:05

see the atrocities that the

4:07

Israeli military committed against Palestinian people. But

4:09

at the same time, you have the

4:11

stories of someone like my grandmother who

4:14

countered the violence. So they did

4:16

this peacefully, maybe

4:19

with a stone against a tank.

4:21

And still, I think this was

4:23

a peaceful disobedience in many ways.

4:25

I think I've read about the first Intifada, which was 1987 to

4:28

early 90s, I think. It was

4:35

largely a nonviolent resistance. Again, unless

4:37

you count throwing a rock at

4:39

a tank. I'm going to say

4:41

I wouldn't consider that

4:44

violence. But there was,

4:47

with any nonviolent movement, there's going to be some violence.

4:49

But overwhelmingly, it was largely a

4:51

nonviolent uprising. Is that right? Yes,

4:55

definitely. Gaza, my grandmother's story,

4:57

is one of many others. Even

5:00

in the West Bank, in the town of Beit

5:02

Sahour, where I live currently, the

5:05

Christian and the Beit Saharan community was

5:07

Palestinian indigenous to this land. They

5:10

went on a civil disobedience. They

5:12

took the Israeli task guards

5:14

that were imposed on them and IDs

5:17

that were imposed on them by the

5:19

military occupation. And they threw them

5:21

away as a kind of protest that we

5:23

reject to be

5:26

controlled by the Israeli military and pay

5:28

tax for the benefits of the Israeli

5:30

military. So you have many stories

5:33

of Palestinian nonviolent

5:36

resistance during the

5:38

first Intifada. What was the, Sabi,

5:40

you've kind of already touched on it. Was there

5:43

a violent response from

5:45

the IDF toward a nonviolent resistance? Would

5:47

that be what you experienced?

5:50

Yes, definitely. And

5:53

there are numerous occasions that

5:56

can be highlighted, even in terms of Gaza.

6:00

and the prestige of a shot at

6:02

refugee camp during the First Intifada. Where

6:06

literally the Israeli military

6:08

created a whole wall

6:10

around the refugee camp and

6:14

attempted to starve the people inside the

6:16

camp. But the Palestinians

6:18

who live in Gaza or the Gazan

6:20

Palestinians, they bake their bread and they

6:22

start throwing the bread over the wall

6:24

to the people who are starving in

6:26

the refugee camp. So

6:28

there were practices where the Israeli

6:31

military was extremely violent or imposed

6:33

some measures that could have caused

6:36

mass killing of Palestinians in Gaza, but at

6:38

the same time in the West Bank. Of

6:41

course, if we

6:43

look at the history of the

6:45

Israeli occupation of Palestine or settler

6:47

colonialism, let's just be more accurate

6:49

in terms of

6:51

classification, there is

6:54

one of constant violence against the

6:56

indigenous people of Palestine. The

6:58

mascars and the genocides committed

7:01

against Palestinians. In

7:03

between the 1917s up to 1945 and between 1945, no sorry, between

7:09

the 1917 and 1947 and then 1947 to 1949 and afterwards. That's

7:16

something that we constantly had to

7:18

deal with as Palestinian people. During

7:21

the first intifada, the second intifada,

7:23

now in Gaza as an example too. Now

7:26

the second intifada as I understand it, and

7:28

now we're talking what, 2000, it's

7:32

in response to the kind of

7:34

the failure, one might say the sham of

7:36

the Oslo Accords that had this veneer

7:38

of peace, but

7:40

I mean everything I read on that

7:42

is like, it wasn't. How

7:47

about those peace accords? Also Camp

7:49

David 2, there's

7:51

the one retelling of that is, it's

7:53

yet another effort of Israel offering

7:56

peace, and yet again, Palestinians

7:58

just rejected the peace offer. is how

8:00

some of my friends would tell that

8:02

story. Do you wanna offer your perspective

8:04

on those peace accords? Well, there

8:07

is a lot on back here, especially

8:09

there is a lot of misinformation out

8:12

there about Palestinian rejecting peace

8:15

proposals throughout history.

8:17

But it's always, you know, the plane

8:19

comes on the Palestinians, the indigenous people

8:21

who lost their land and were exiled

8:23

and dispossessed. The plane doesn't

8:25

come on the colonizers. You

8:27

know, even when the colonizers offer peace, it's

8:30

not actual peace. It still comes

8:33

at the expense of long history and heritage

8:35

that was

8:37

taken away and erased by the

8:39

colonial power like the Israelis. But

8:42

let's go only for the Oslo Accord in

8:44

1993, which comes after.

8:47

And it was actually by means

8:49

of ending the first Palestinian civil

8:51

uprising against the Israeli military. So

8:55

the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation

8:57

Organization on

8:59

leadership of Yasser Arafat, later on

9:01

the first president of the

9:04

Palestinian Authority, naively

9:06

accepted a peace proposal by the Israelis.

9:08

And naively, this is not my wording.

9:10

It's actually a wording of the

9:13

Israeli historian, Ilhan Papey, in his book, The

9:15

Ethnic Lensing of Palestine. Because

9:18

the PA, the PLO back then,

9:20

PA later, didn't really

9:22

understand the diplomacy and

9:25

the wording that the Israeli used to trap them

9:27

into the peace agreement, which

9:29

offered them some kind of sovereignty,

9:32

but without sovereignty. What

9:34

does that mean? It

9:36

means that Palestinians don't have full sovereignty

9:38

over their land or their natural resources.

9:42

I was meeting with someone last week

9:44

and I told them, actually,

9:48

for Palestinians to collect

9:50

rainwater is illegal

9:53

in Israeli terms. Do you collect rainwater?

9:56

Yes. So this

9:58

is only example. to show

10:00

you the extension of the

10:02

Israeli control over the Palestinian

10:05

people, including in the lands

10:07

that designated under the Palestinian

10:09

Authority or giving to the

10:11

Palestinians after the

10:13

Oslo Accord. And the Oslo Accord

10:15

agreement came with also the Paris

10:18

agreement for economics that almost

10:21

completely controlled the Palestinian population

10:24

in the West Bank of Gaza when

10:26

it comes to their economic status or

10:29

exchange. So in

10:32

general, all the peace

10:34

agreements were given or proposed to

10:36

the Palestinians when N3L1 didn't stand on the

10:38

1967 borders, for example, or

10:43

the Partition Plan of 1947 that

10:46

guarantees that Palestinians, Arabs will

10:48

have a statehood and then the Israeli

10:50

Zionists will have another state. So

10:53

it always was like the Israelis

10:56

are not willing, for example, to

10:59

accept that Palestinians have right to

11:01

return, have right to self-determination

11:04

over their land, have

11:06

right to be

11:08

stewards of their own natural

11:10

resources. And many

11:13

others like Jerusalem, the

11:15

final state of Jerusalem, that the

11:17

East Jerusalem part of the Palestinian

11:20

state. And Israel actually

11:22

wishes that all Palestinians would disappear from

11:24

this land and it cannot occupy the

11:26

whole of it. That's the reality that

11:28

we get to see nowadays on Gaza

11:31

because Israel constantly for the last 30

11:34

years has been denying

11:36

the Palestinians the basic human

11:38

rights and their

11:40

statehood according to the international law.

11:43

Can you give us another example? That's

11:45

someone could say, wow, is that really

11:47

true? Like denying basic human rights? Do

11:50

you have another example of what that

11:52

looks like? There

11:55

are numerous examples. I think every part of

11:57

Palestinian life is an example of how Israelis

12:00

are controlling our livelihood.

12:03

For example, I live in

12:05

Bethlehem. Gaza is only 60

12:08

kilometers away from where I am, which

12:10

means only 40 miles. It's

12:13

much easier to travel and do this

12:15

interview with you in person than me

12:18

going to visit my family in

12:20

Gaza. And sometimes even

12:22

for a Palestinian like me to travel

12:24

from Bethlehem to from

12:27

Allah, which only 30 miles away

12:29

from where I am, I need

12:31

to travel on Israeli highways. I have

12:34

to cross through at least two, three checkpoints,

12:37

but sometimes are closed for

12:39

a mysterious reason for

12:41

two, three, four hours. So

12:44

this is part of the, this I

12:47

would consider even the inconvenience of life

12:49

under occupation because there are

12:51

more broader realities that

12:54

we experience on a daily basis, which

12:56

means in Bethlehem, for example, almost nightly

12:59

invasion of Israeli military and detention of

13:01

young people in refugee camps or in

13:04

the city. So there

13:07

is a lot we can't unpack here

13:09

in terms of economy, human

13:11

rights violations that

13:13

go beyond even the convenience of freedom of

13:16

movement. I want to come back to what

13:19

be what the Americans like we don't under most people

13:21

in the web. People have them into the land or

13:23

even people that have been to the land, but haven't

13:25

been to certain parts of the land don't know the

13:28

experience of the checkpoint, what

13:31

it's like going through these checkpoints. So I want

13:33

to have you, I want to come back to that though.

13:36

Going back to the, so the first Intifada, the

13:39

piece of cords that weren't really

13:41

fair. And again, people can

13:43

go and read on this, that this is

13:45

well documented. Even I

13:47

just glanced at the Wikipedia pages. I normally don't

13:50

do, but if you do, they actually do a

13:52

pretty good breakdown of

13:54

the different kinds of versions

13:57

of that. All of the different

13:59

versions. versions though are all clearly like,

14:02

no matter what version you take, it wasn't a

14:05

fair offer. Like you said, it wasn't

14:07

like a kind of two-state

14:09

solution that was being offered at

14:11

all. But then you had the second intifada,

14:13

and this is something that I

14:15

often hear, you know, the second intifada was

14:17

actually violent, right?

14:20

Like that wasn't a nonviolent

14:22

resistance. It's

14:24

almost like the nonviolent resistance didn't seem

14:26

to work, according to maybe thinking so

14:28

we're going to try the more violent

14:31

responses. Is that true that second intifada was

14:33

much more violent and that's what led to

14:35

the massive blockade on Gaza? Or again, I

14:37

know that's kind of a broad brush. Yes.

14:41

So, Palestinian celebrated the 1993

14:43

Oslo Accord, and they thought

14:45

that the arrival of the

14:47

Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PA,

14:49

promises more peace with this

14:51

release. And they will be granted

14:54

a statehood or some sort of statehood,

14:56

full guarantees, sort of the

15:00

start of reconciliation with the Israelis. And

15:03

by the way, just keep in mind that Palestinian people

15:06

and Israeli civilians

15:09

usually mingled with

15:11

one another in some

15:14

towns and cities, and they lived

15:16

peacefully or co-existed peacefully. Just

15:19

keep in mind there was always this power

15:22

dynamics, whose superior and whose inferior,

15:24

who's the colonizer and who's the colonized. But

15:28

in between the 1993 and 2000, where

15:31

Palestinians dreamed that Israelis will grant

15:33

them a statehood, Israel failed to

15:36

do so. And

15:39

in the year 2000, when Ariel

15:41

Sharon was a

15:44

minister in the Israeli government back

15:48

this created Il-Aqsa Mosque, which

15:50

is a very holy

15:52

site for Muslims in Palestine. If

15:54

you know Palestine's site in general,

15:57

they're a very religious conservative society.

16:00

So places mean something to

16:02

us, especially when it comes

16:04

to mosques, churches or synagogues. So

16:07

the desecration of the Aksamos resulted

16:10

in outrage among

16:12

the Palestinians who thought that

16:14

now the Zionists are going

16:17

after Aksamos and caused

16:20

the start of the second intifada. The

16:23

second intifada was more violent from

16:25

the Palestinian side. It's true, but it was also

16:27

the result of the Israeli violence who caused a

16:30

very destructive effect on the Palestinian

16:32

society. It comes to demography, but

16:35

also to the geography of this

16:37

land and the infrastructure in the

16:40

Palestinian towns and cities in the West Bank

16:43

in particular. The

16:45

numbers of people who were killed, those

16:47

who were detained, the

16:49

infrastructures of cities like Bethlehem,

16:51

for example, 40 days

16:54

beseash of Bethlehem, where the Israeli

16:56

military closed of

17:00

Bethlehem from the outside world. And

17:02

people had to stay inside their homes for

17:04

40 days and nights. And

17:07

of course, one

17:10

of the parts of the city that was besieged

17:12

is the Church of Nativity, where it's believed that

17:14

Jesus Christ was born and

17:16

actually was targeted by the Israeli tanks.

17:20

So we had this violent response

17:22

from the Israeli military,

17:25

which caused also more violent

17:27

responses from the Palestinians, especially

17:30

those who are more into the

17:32

Islamic Jihad or Hamas

17:35

or Qata' al-Aqsa, which belongs also

17:37

to Fethi. And

17:40

they saw this violence as

17:42

a reaction to the Israeli

17:44

domination, subjugation, suffocation

17:46

of the Palestinian people for years.

17:49

I wonder too, if I was

17:51

actually there, I was at Al-Aqsa Mosque

17:54

in 99. So just a few months before

17:56

Ariel Sharon spearheaded.

18:00

that I wonder, I

18:02

mean, the, the, the, because if

18:04

you go back to even like 1982, it was, was

18:07

it Ariel Sharon where he got the nickname,

18:09

the butcher, when he spearheaded this absolute

18:13

massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon

18:16

over, I mean, I forget how

18:18

many hundreds were

18:20

just slaughtered all night long. I mean,

18:22

it was brutal. So I,

18:26

you can't separate. I'm just, it's actually

18:28

a question. I wonder

18:31

like when he then does

18:33

that with Al-Aqsa Mosque, what's that

18:35

like 18 years later? Like that's, that's

18:37

not a disc, that's not disconnected from

18:39

the memory of Palestinians, what Sharon,

18:42

the reputation he has against Palestinians. Is

18:44

that a fair, you know,

18:46

as a nation, as Palestinians, we

18:48

memorize the names of our great,

18:50

great grandparents, three and four and

18:52

500 years. So

18:55

we know very well and we remember very

18:57

well the memories of those who caused

19:00

damage and pain towards satay. So

19:02

definitely people in the 2000

19:05

remembered what Ariel Sharon

19:07

did for the Palestinian

19:09

refugees in Subram Chetil and

19:12

in Lebanon. But they also remembered

19:14

his role and others and

19:17

the colonization of Palestine since

19:19

1948 and even a

19:21

little before that. So we

19:23

have been a

19:25

lively memories of the

19:28

Nakba and of all the mascars that

19:30

were committed against our people that

19:32

when the intifada happened, this whole

19:35

pain and trauma came out again.

19:38

Going back to like growing up in, in,

19:40

in Gaza. So it was your whole family

19:42

Christian, were you born into a Christian family?

19:45

So what was that? What's it like being a Christian

19:47

in a largely Muslim

19:51

city or land of Gaza? Was it was

19:53

a conflict or is it peaceful or a

19:55

little bit of both? This

19:57

is an excellent question. Yes,

19:59

I come. from a Christian family. Actually,

20:02

my family has a long history

20:04

and heritage in the Orthodox Church,

20:06

particularly in the office of priesthood. 36

20:11

generations of my family were a priest

20:13

in the Eastern Orthodox Church. 36

20:16

generations? Yes. My

20:19

bedroom was built in Gaza around

20:21

the 5th century. So

20:23

when people ask me, when you convert it

20:25

from like whatever to Christianity,

20:28

I tell them, oh, actually my bedroom

20:30

was built in the 5th century. And

20:34

people forget that Gaza has

20:37

always been a vibrant area

20:40

for Christian monasticism, especially in

20:43

the third and fourth

20:45

century. Saint

20:47

Hilaryon, the father of Palestinian

20:49

monasticism, was a disciple of

20:52

Saint Anthony the Great, who was the

20:54

father of monasticism. It started

20:56

in Gaza, and Gaza

20:58

was connected to the Sinai. So this

21:00

is just a glimpse. So

21:03

my family comes up from that history of

21:07

following Jesus and committing

21:09

to the message of the good news for

21:11

centuries. Growing

21:14

up in Gaza, you know, the Christian

21:16

community has declined rapidly

21:19

over centuries, of course,

21:22

because of colonialism in

21:24

the 1800s, 1900s, the Britain, like

21:28

the Ottmans, and then the British and

21:30

the Israelis, caused severe

21:32

decline for the Gazans and

21:35

the Persian community. For

21:38

example, part of

21:40

the Gaza Strip, that's the monastery

21:45

of dates, if

21:48

we take it literally, which tells you that there

21:50

was a Christian monastery over there,

21:52

and it was some kind

21:54

of a Christian town. Now

21:57

it has none. No Christians, Over

22:01

the last at least 30 years,

22:03

there has been a decline of the Christian community in

22:06

Gaza from 3000 or 3500 to about 1200 in the

22:08

last maybe 12 years. And

22:17

nowadays, the number of Christians are less than seven

22:19

or 600. And

22:22

they are all now sheltering in the

22:24

Orthodox and the Catholic Church. But the

22:26

growing up in Gaza after the 19th,

22:29

of course, during the first Intifada and the

22:31

second Intifada, you feel this

22:33

intimacy with your Muslim neighbors because we

22:35

are connected to this land. We have

22:38

our history and roots in this land.

22:40

And the feel of belonging and

22:42

the shared suffering

22:46

brought us together. Of course, after

22:51

Hamas came to power, things have

22:53

changed a little bit. Let

22:55

me be here more clear. In

22:59

2005, the United Nations, the

23:01

United States and European Union have

23:04

the Palestinian Authority to conduct

23:06

a democratic election and

23:08

to be, of course, supervised by

23:11

all these parties to make sure

23:13

that it's clean election with

23:15

no corruption. So Hamas

23:19

was mainly a militant

23:22

group, has decided

23:24

to join the political career and

23:27

create its own party that

23:29

would join the Palestinian parliament and

23:31

even go for the presidency. And

23:34

Hamas declared that it

23:36

will be a movement for reconciliation

23:38

and faithfulness to the blood of

23:41

people and their cause. Meanwhile,

23:44

Palestinians already had experienced

23:46

the P.A. for

23:48

about 10 years or

23:51

even more. And they found

23:53

that their approach with the Israelis has failed.

23:55

So many people went for

23:57

Hamas because Israel has failed

23:59

to. to its agreements with the

24:01

Palestinian Authority. So the Palestinian

24:04

people thought that their

24:06

authority is corrupt and it's

24:09

only providing

24:11

support for the Israeli occupation. So

24:14

they went for Hamas. And Hamas won

24:16

the election fair and square. It

24:19

was approved by the UN,

24:21

the European Union. It was

24:23

a fair election. And

24:26

the Palestinian people democratically elected

24:28

Hamas, but what happened next?

24:32

None of the Palestinians were given a chance

24:34

to enjoy their democracy or

24:36

to see at least just the waters, what this

24:39

democracy will bring about to us. The

24:42

first thing that's been done is

24:45

collective punishment by the international community

24:47

against the Palestinian people, particularly in

24:49

Gaza. And Israel, of

24:51

course, used and took advantage of

24:54

what happened during that election to

24:56

enforce the division between Gaza and the West

24:58

Bank. So Hamas and Fatih fought

25:01

in Gaza. They had like

25:03

a very short fight between

25:05

the PA and Hamas and

25:07

resulted in the complete division now between

25:09

Gaza, the government of Hamas, and the

25:12

West Bank with the government of

25:14

Fatih. And Netanyahu, if you

25:16

are familiar with the news, has

25:18

maintained this division and even reinforced

25:21

it over and over

25:23

again by allowing Qatar giving

25:26

Hamas almost $60 million every,

25:29

I think every month or so, just

25:31

to maintain their own government in Gaza

25:33

Strip. So during that time, with

25:36

the rise of Hamas, they

25:38

become kind of

25:40

sensitive to the Christian community, feeling that

25:43

we are a minority living in a

25:45

majority Muslim country. And now

25:47

we have a government that claims it's to

25:49

be a Muslim. So there were

25:52

fears, of course, because of

25:54

that. And one incident

25:56

that a Palestinian Christian Was

25:59

killed by... An extremist group

26:01

called The Lot of Fear. And

26:04

Gaza among the Christian community

26:06

so that could create some

26:08

kind of chaotic. Ah,

26:10

mixers of feeling. And.

26:13

To two Thousand and Seven Two Thousand and

26:15

Eight. But. Later on. I

26:17

would say and Palestinian community of

26:20

how things are. Some communities in

26:22

Gaza coexisted, live peacefully, live together

26:24

peacefully of course with their Muslim

26:27

neighbors. And we see

26:29

this example even today and a time of

26:31

genocide. And Muslim community

26:33

is protecting the church at

26:36

in Gaza City. A

26:38

decreasing community was something at the Orthodox

26:40

church they serve that for them resources

26:42

but that Muslim neighbors and a Muslim

26:44

neighbors. They showed also the resources with

26:46

the Muslim with a Christian community. So.

26:49

We can see that we are in

26:51

the same same experience and the same

26:53

land. We see him what's happening. Weeks

26:56

to help people but loved ones were

26:58

killed by the Israelis. We have ones

27:00

that were detained by Israel Month that

27:02

is. We have the said experience that

27:05

also. Brings. Us together

27:07

beside hour long history of

27:09

coexistence and making life together.

27:14

A friend's my Blood exiles, the Church

27:16

and a Shadow of Empire is out

27:18

now. I am so excited and a

27:21

bit nervous about the release of this

27:23

book is the topic I've been thinking

27:25

about for many many years and finally

27:28

put pen to paper to write out

27:30

on my thoughts. I specifically I'm to

27:32

address the question: what is a Christian

27:35

political identity As members of Christ global

27:37

most high ethnic upside down kingdom scattered

27:39

across the nation? How should we as

27:41

members of that kingdom stinks through and

27:44

interact. with the various nations that we are

27:46

living under so the book is basically a

27:48

biblical theology of a christian political identity will

27:50

look at the nation of israel will look

27:53

at the exile of israel we look at

27:55

several parts of the new testament of life

27:57

and teachings of jesus that's the several passages

27:59

in them of Acts, the letters of Paul,

28:01

do a deep dive into 1 Peter in

28:03

the book of Revelation, and then explore some

28:06

contemporary points of application. So I would highly

28:08

encourage you to check out my book Exiles

28:10

and would love to hear what you think,

28:12

whether you hate the book, love it,

28:14

or still think it through it, would love to hear

28:17

what you think by dropping a review on Amazon

28:19

or post a blog, just ripping it to

28:21

shreds. I don't really care. I would love

28:24

for you to just wrestle with this really

28:26

important topic in this really volatile political season

28:28

that we're living in. I'm

28:32

curious. I've heard from people that weren't

28:34

raised in the land that, so I'm

28:36

not sure where they're getting

28:38

this information from, but I just would

28:41

love to know you being raised in Gaza. Are the

28:43

children being raised in Gaza in the school, are they

28:45

kind of like, I don't want to say brainwashed,

28:47

but taught to be anti-Semitic? Do

28:50

you get a lot of teaching

28:53

growing up in the school system

28:55

that just fosters a hatred towards

28:57

Jewish people? I totally

28:59

disagree. As

29:02

a Palestinian Christian, I went to public

29:04

school since my sixth grade. So

29:07

I had to memorize the Quran as

29:10

part of my curriculum, and I enjoyed

29:12

doing this just to learn about my

29:15

Muslim neighbor's faith. I

29:17

went to the law school in

29:19

Gaza City, a Lazar University, for three

29:21

years, where I had to study

29:23

the Quran, I had to study Islamic law,

29:25

and I had to study the

29:28

life of the Prophet Muhammad.

29:32

So of course you

29:34

can interpret certain teachings and

29:37

passages in the Quran as

29:40

anti-Semitic. Of

29:42

course you will find people who

29:44

are very extremist fundamentalists in their

29:46

interpretation of certain texts of

29:48

the Quran to be anti-Semitic.

29:51

That doesn't mean that children

29:53

are brainwashed to anti-Semitism. It's

29:56

interesting when Palestinians are accused to

29:58

brainwash their kids. to hate

30:00

Jews. With the fact that we live

30:02

next to the Jews and most of the time, people

30:05

are not after exiling

30:09

the Jews who occupy our land. Actually,

30:11

we have been investing time and energy

30:13

in finding a way to share the

30:15

land with the Jews peacefully. Even

30:18

when Palestinians say from the river to the sea,

30:21

from the Jordan river to the

30:23

Mediterranean sea, that all people who

30:25

live in the land can live

30:27

freely and equally. We

30:29

are not talking about exiling a certain group of

30:31

people at the expense of the other. We

30:34

are talking about three consigning and building together. So

30:36

from I was going to ask that I

30:38

was going to ask about that as my next question. So the

30:40

phrase from the land of the sea is not genocidal,

30:43

like get rid of all the Jews from the

30:45

land of the sea. It is how can we

30:47

all live peacefully within this land together? That's what

30:49

it means. I mean, people can maybe mean different

30:51

things by it, I guess. Of

30:53

course. And I need to remind people that everything

30:55

we say, every word we read, carries

30:59

several meanings and can be interpreted

31:02

in whatever way,

31:04

depends on the intention of any person, of

31:06

course, including from the river to

31:08

the sea. But let me

31:11

be very clear and give a background of

31:13

history. Palestinian people who lived on

31:15

the land from

31:18

the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea before

31:20

the 1948 and before the Zionist militia

31:26

invasion and expansion over Palestine and take

31:28

over, this was the thing to Palestinians

31:30

from their land. Palestinian

31:33

Jews, Muslims and Christians who

31:35

existed, they lived together peacefully.

31:38

And I think this is the kind of

31:40

utopia that I still believe it's possible that

31:42

we are looking for and demanding

31:44

when we claim that free Palestine

31:46

from the river to the sea. Palestine

31:50

will be free. It's a free for

31:52

all people, Muslim, Jewish and Christian, to

31:54

worship in this

31:56

land, to live, enjoy the abundance

31:58

of this land. land together.

32:02

It's not genocidal. I think

32:04

the only genocidal thing that happened

32:07

is when a settler

32:09

colonial regime claims that it wants the

32:11

land from the river to

32:13

the sea to one group of people

32:15

without the other. Meanwhile,

32:17

what we are calling for is

32:20

for inclusive society in Palestine

32:22

where all people from different backgrounds can

32:24

coexist and live together and

32:27

then you already said like intifada because these

32:29

are really hot phrases right now in the

32:31

American context with the at the time

32:33

of the recording we still have a lot

32:36

of campus protests and you

32:39

have people chanting from the river to the

32:41

sea Palestine will be free and

32:43

people are interpreting that as a

32:45

genocidal statement. Now I don't know

32:47

what American or maybe

32:49

they're Palestinian but just protesters what they

32:52

mean by that but you're saying that

32:54

the phrase at the very least doesn't

32:57

it's not it doesn't intrinsically mean that

33:00

that's not the heart behind the maybe the

33:02

original statement of that phrase

33:04

and intifada does not mean wipe out all the

33:06

Jews it's just an

33:08

uprising against what

33:11

you would see as an oppressive occupying power

33:13

so that we can all be free right.

33:15

Exactly I think you captured the heart of

33:17

what I'm saying it's actually

33:19

these phrases are liberating

33:21

for all people including those

33:25

who live in this land

33:27

Palestinians Christians Arabs and Jews

33:30

who don't believe in an

33:32

ideology of domination and supremacy

33:34

and for example just

33:38

I've heard many people talking about

33:40

intifada and they have just gave

33:42

certain interpretation for these terms that

33:45

don't serve actually to help people

33:47

understand the depth of the Palestinian

33:49

experience but also they don't understand

33:51

Arabic in order to translate what

33:54

intifada means what intifada means

33:56

is to shake off you know

33:58

when you have a dust on you you you shake off

34:00

this dust, you shake off the dust that

34:04

oppression brings unto you. It

34:06

means rising up peacefully as

34:10

revolutionaries against oppression. It

34:12

means to,

34:15

for me as a Christian, I see it even

34:18

as in terms of resurrection. It's rising up, refusing

34:22

to be submissive to death,

34:25

refusing to be imprisoned

34:28

and attuned to

34:30

be alive again. So for me

34:32

it has a theological connotation even. Of

34:35

course some people will interpret it differently,

34:37

but as a scholar,

34:39

as a Palestinian Christian, as a

34:41

theologian, I see it

34:43

as a positive connotation that is liberating

34:46

to everyone. That's super helpful.

34:50

The people I listen to, journalists and scholars

34:52

and stuff, that's exactly what they say. In

34:55

the mainstream news here, it's

34:58

being pegged as an intrinsically

35:00

genocidal statement. Or intifada means

35:03

violent revolution that has

35:05

genocidal connotation. That's

35:08

the perception of a lot of Americans, I think. One

35:10

more question about Gaza and I want to come back to life in

35:12

the West Bank. So

35:14

there was this in response to the

35:17

second intifada and Hamas being elected and

35:19

all the history you

35:21

gave. You know, from 2005

35:23

onward there was this blockade

35:26

on Gaza. Some

35:28

people call it an open-air prison.

35:31

Other people call it an autonomously

35:34

ruled land. Like

35:36

Israel gave Gaza

35:38

to be autonomously ruled and they said,

35:40

okay, and it's really Hamas that's gobbled

35:42

up all the resources and driven the

35:44

economy into the ground. Those

35:46

are two very different perspectives. Can you tell

35:48

us, I mean, you

35:50

weren't there. I think you left around

35:52

that time, but you have family there. So I mean, you could, what's

35:55

life been like in Gaza during

35:58

this 18 year, 19 year, blockade

36:00

before October 7th, before October 7th. So the blockade

36:03

started from 2006, almost 2007, up to October 7th.

36:09

Let's make this the point. And

36:12

yes, I left Gaza a few months

36:14

after the blockade started. I returned to

36:17

Gaza three times since then, so

36:19

I got to see it firsthand,

36:22

what it feels like to live in Gaza. I

36:25

actually reject the term

36:27

of open air presence because it connotates

36:29

that Palestinians are criminals, which is not

36:31

true. Palestinians are

36:33

being plocated or

36:37

made into the largest concentration

36:40

camp. These are

36:42

not my words. This is

36:44

actually the words of an

36:46

Israeli sociologist in

36:48

2004 who started

36:50

talking about how Israel is

36:53

turning Gaza, even before

36:56

Hamas and everything else, is turning Gaza

36:59

into the largest concentration camp.

37:02

And the scholar, I think his name is

37:04

Baruch Kumberling, who wrote this article

37:06

in 2004 or so. So

37:09

Gaza is a concentration camp,

37:11

even though the Israelis withdraw

37:13

some settlements, they still maintain

37:15

control over the borders, the

37:18

shore, and the aerial

37:20

space. So for example, Palestinians cannot travel

37:23

out of Gaza without Israeli approvals. They

37:26

cannot fish in their

37:29

rightfully legal

37:32

borders on the Mediterranean without

37:34

the approval of the Israeli

37:36

military. And

37:39

the same when it comes to the

37:41

aerial space. The first thing that Israel

37:43

did during the second intifada actually, destroying

37:46

the only airport in the Palestinian

37:48

territory, which was in Gaza in

37:51

Rafah, and of

37:53

course, the port of Gaza. And

37:55

so, and later on, they destroyed

37:57

a power genocide.

38:00

operators that were mainly supplying Gaza with

38:02

power, almost 30% or so of the

38:04

power supply of Gaza were made locally

38:06

and the rest of it was imported

38:10

from the Israeli side. So

38:12

Israel destroyed almost all the

38:14

infrastructure that would

38:17

have helped Palestinians create their own

38:19

livelihood in Gaza Strip. And

38:21

of course, after the plokid, you

38:23

have many items that people couldn't get from

38:26

outside work, including chocolate, by the

38:28

way. Chocolate? Yes.

38:31

Why? You make bombs out of chocolate

38:34

or something? I think so. You

38:39

read the list of things that were not allowed

38:41

to Gaza and you think, like, what's this madness

38:43

is all about? And I

38:46

remember, for example, that electricity in

38:48

Gaza, for example, my parents would

38:51

get connected to power only

38:53

for four to six hours every 24

38:56

hours. So, for example, when I go to

38:58

visit my family in Gaza and I only had the chance

39:00

to do this three times because

39:02

it's always restricted by the

39:04

Israeli military permission approval to

39:07

go to see my family. And

39:10

I I I witnessed my mom would wake

39:12

up around three or four a.m. to

39:15

wash the clothes because it's the only time where

39:17

we will get electricity. About

39:19

95 percent of water

39:21

in Gaza before

39:24

even October 7th

39:26

was undrinkable. The

39:29

unemployment rate of Gaza was around 47

39:31

percent, 43 to 47 percent before October

39:33

7th. All

39:39

of this because of the Israeli

39:41

plokid around Gaza. That's

39:43

the reality of it.

39:46

You don't get to import export

39:48

anything. You cannot move even if you are

39:50

sick to Israeli hospitals

39:53

or Palestinians hospitals in the

39:55

West Bank without Israeli permissions.

39:58

And every aspect. literally every

40:01

aspect of your life is

40:03

being controlled by the Israelis. So

40:06

Gaza, yes, the

40:09

Israelis withdraw, but the Israeli

40:12

remained as an occupying power,

40:14

was in control of Gaza

40:17

in many ways. Did Gazans get

40:19

work permits to be able to leave Gaza

40:21

and go work in Israel? I accept that

40:25

people have told me that if I

40:27

read it, it's something like 10 to 15,000 or something. It's

40:30

not for 2.2 million people. Well, let's

40:32

just say half or two, so 1.1

40:34

million working people, even

40:36

if it's like 20,000, 30,000 work

40:38

permits, it's not a very high percentage. But still,

40:40

that's true. And it wasn't always the case. So

40:44

it was only in seasonal work. I

40:47

think what's important for people to know

40:49

that Palestinians are the cheap labors for

40:52

the Israeli economy. And I'm

40:54

sorry to say that about my people, but that's the

40:56

reality of it, the people who live

40:58

under occupation. The Israeli government,

41:01

over the years, they tried to bring workers

41:04

and labors from other countries,

41:07

Asia and Africa. However,

41:09

Palestinians know this land very well,

41:11

that they eventually had to

41:13

go back to the Palestinians and

41:15

ask and give the Palestinian permission to work

41:18

in this land. So the

41:21

only reason that Israelis, it's not

41:23

for the good hearted government

41:25

they have, but because they

41:27

need Palestinian labor,

41:30

a cheap labor to build and

41:33

to, of course, to

41:35

empower their economy. So the work permits are

41:37

really to give people jobs that the Israelis

41:39

kind of don't want to do? I mean...

41:42

Or they don't know how to do. I'll

41:44

give you a fascinating story. When

41:47

the Israeli settlers occupied Palestine

41:49

in 1948, a

41:52

group of settlers occupied a village and

41:54

they tried to work hard to plant

41:56

the land and the soil of that

41:58

village for several years. years. They

42:01

couldn't. They didn't succeed. They

42:04

eventually remember that if we

42:06

can bring back the Palestinian

42:08

men, the owners of their

42:10

village, toward the land,

42:13

they might fix it. And that's what

42:15

exactly happened. When the

42:17

Palestinians, the indigenous people, came and planted

42:19

the land, suddenly became

42:22

fruitful and plentiful. The

42:24

same thing applies to many stories

42:28

when it comes to how to build houses.

42:30

It's our land. We know this land very

42:32

well. Where to build a

42:34

house, where you shouldn't build a house, and how to

42:36

build a house. Of

42:39

course, into other parts of the

42:41

economy, the Palestinians will

42:44

inform because of how they belong to

42:46

this land. So the Israelis, as a

42:48

settler, colonial society, they are always

42:50

in desperate need, I

42:53

would say, even for the Palestinian help. So

42:56

cheap labor, of course, has become

42:58

part of it. Keeping

43:01

in mind as well that Israel

43:03

has succeeded to make the Palestinian

43:06

economy and the Israelis are

43:08

entangled, somehow inseparable

43:11

even. Palestinians have to use

43:13

Israeli currency. They

43:16

rely on the central bank of Israel

43:18

to get their currency. And of

43:20

course, many of our products we

43:22

get in the market made by

43:25

Israeli companies. Thankfully, now

43:27

there is more awareness about

43:29

by boycotting Israeli products because

43:31

they eventually give

43:33

support to the Israeli military. But that's part

43:35

of the economic reality in

43:38

Palestine. How much of the

43:40

blame of life

43:43

in Gaza as a whole? The poor

43:46

quality of life in Gaza. How much

43:48

of the blame do you put? Maybe

43:50

not just you, but the average Palestinian

43:52

puts on Hamas. Because that's,

43:54

again, I'm in constant conversations with people.

43:56

I've Even read somewhere that

43:58

Hamas, the top three leaders, There were like

44:00

eleven billion dollars or something years and

44:03

somebody said there's more aid flowing in

44:05

the gods of than any other place

44:07

or lately says a lot of aid

44:09

and Hamas gobbles it up to make.

44:12

To. Build tunnels everywhere and build rockets

44:14

or whatever like like. So it's

44:16

really the all the aid and

44:18

help Israel is giving Gaza. Somebody.

44:20

Even told me like would Israel

44:22

provide free water and free electricity and

44:25

you know it's insane to hear

44:27

you're laughing his ass. Yeah so I've

44:29

Agatha General like d you see,

44:31

like. Both the blame on Israel,

44:33

but then some of the blame on Hamas

44:35

or what role does Abbas play and the

44:38

doubt the economic downturn. Of. Of

44:40

Gaza. Or with have a

44:42

common for the parapet a certain

44:45

that politics corrupt Like a politics

44:47

corrupt people. So. Whenever you

44:49

have someone who's that is ethical with

44:51

integrity when they get the politics somehow

44:54

they lose all of that of other

44:56

than the thief that many levels of

44:58

stuff but that's that's a pretty universal

45:01

principles saw on a coastline on that

45:03

success at me Us So. We.

45:06

Need to understand that some ass when

45:08

it came to power was on experienced.

45:11

A to play into politics at

45:13

the game. it was only a

45:16

resistance movement. Sort. Of a

45:18

almost two decades and Smith says but

45:20

a young cook that to the philo

45:22

or he felt the what other a

45:24

healthy and success by the way says

45:26

very young and it's only thirty years

45:28

old or or forty years old A

45:30

max. When it comes

45:32

from the principles to the creation and

45:34

as some of the case of the

45:36

movement. So. Want

45:39

from us? Think about it

45:41

and was have faced with

45:43

that backlash from the entire

45:45

world and the plotted. This.

45:48

Sort creating the tennis in order to

45:50

smuggles food to Gaza and let of.

45:52

They found out that it's buried beneath

45:55

us and for the economy so they

45:57

fucked imposed tax on these tunnels that.

46:00

The provide food, cigarettes,

46:02

even cars to Gaza.

46:04

At. Certain time. So. Smiles

46:07

at some point. yes certain groups

46:10

and leaders of from us of

46:12

course. Ah outside. like Sens politics

46:14

corrupt they became part of the

46:17

blitz given Monday tried to be

46:19

beneficial use of what's happening to

46:21

gossip much of it says not

46:23

to over. And

46:26

generalize her I think that's important

46:28

and less not used as an

46:30

excuse to justify the genocide is

46:32

happening and causal factor. Forget that

46:34

a mess is only a small

46:37

group of the Palestinian people in

46:39

Gaza in that respect for number

46:41

of from us member says softly

46:43

about thirty Five thousand Forty thousand

46:46

that doesn't even come close to

46:48

on. A faction of

46:50

the Palestinian people but also

46:52

the majority of from as

46:54

members of are Palestinian refugees

46:56

who would displace and Nineteen

46:58

Forty Eight. From. The homeland

47:01

and would not allow. A

47:04

get us of course the internet for longer to

47:06

bless them. The I took turns that the homeland

47:08

that the Israelis didn't allow them to do so.

47:11

So. I'm in

47:13

Gaza Strip has become. An

47:16

example of people who are and

47:18

despair because of the plunkett trying

47:20

to find ways to make living

47:22

and to ah to fum keep

47:24

the economy running and of course

47:26

the government was in Gaza took

47:28

advantage and certain extent to that

47:30

in order to build the on

47:32

wealth. So the rigid use any

47:34

original intention of the tunnels was

47:36

to get more aid into Gaza.

47:38

It wasn't like to start building

47:40

a big military kind of base

47:42

of operation at the beginning at

47:44

least on I know that's probably

47:46

how they're used now maybe but.

47:49

Not the thought of the first

47:51

of the tunnels work on it.

47:54

And service of bringing

47:56

food, medicine cigarettes to

47:59

Gaza. The I remember

48:01

I was in Rafah one Sunday

48:03

a soda tunnels and they are

48:05

not as sophisticated as people might

48:07

think. Sometimes parts of they were

48:10

made but then when I was

48:12

there are saying and a twenty

48:14

thirteen and later on when to

48:16

nineteen. And to bring

48:19

a i remember one of things

48:21

the commodities is cheese. So.

48:24

Dollars with rely on the Egyptian to

48:26

use. Ah so it comes through tunnels

48:28

only. Because all

48:30

the products so did com to Gaza has

48:32

to go through the israelis and that is

48:35

released minutes on stage or sakes you know

48:37

for certain items. Some. People can

48:39

get them usually from tunnels we say

48:41

no to tease the is that when

48:44

let season the guns I can't recall

48:46

if it sees one on a of

48:48

the items of but i remember seeing

48:50

like how can you getting to use

48:53

of from the towels and cigarettes because.

48:56

Each of her was like I'm like

48:58

a lifeline. For. Thousand Economy at

49:01

Durham. I heard somewhere that I heard

49:03

somewhere that even toys and potato chips

49:05

were allowed or at least on a

49:07

period of time or something. I'm.

49:09

Unaware I read that on the path.

49:11

Smyrna of that money is a funny

49:13

examples of what wasn't allowed to in

49:16

Gaza. Of. Them for

49:18

the last seventeen years, but

49:20

many of them. Are. Unjustifiable.

49:22

I'm use of eve use the

49:24

term genocide a few times now

49:26

that that's been. That. Can

49:28

be very a volatile statement. The counter

49:30

argument to that is, well, if is,

49:32

you're trying to commit genocide, they're doing

49:34

a really bad job at it. even

49:37

if we take the. Numbers

49:39

from the Hamas Ministry of Health. Thirty.

49:42

To forty thousand. People killed

49:44

in the you know, some of whom were

49:46

militants. That's still a really. Small.

49:48

Percentage of two point two million

49:50

people who they they tell civilian

49:52

the I guess this is another

49:54

you know whatever Israel is going

49:56

to say bomb some area they.

49:59

Warn All of us! Lillian to flee

50:01

ahead of time in what.

50:04

I'm. Trying to represent this counter argument you

50:06

know in what history of genocide to people

50:08

warned a civilian Zola Heave. Like that just

50:11

seems like obviously that they're not trying to

50:13

kill. Civilians. Now. You.

50:15

Know people say war is hell. collateral damage

50:17

happens. The Eternal The Talking Points bus and

50:20

I think that is an interesting point. I

50:22

why if you're trying to commit genocide why

50:24

would you tell civilians to to fleece? Oh

50:26

hell yes you can ask us have any

50:28

as the fleet on or was there is

50:30

no work for them to flee. And

50:34

both exactly youtube them into a concentration

50:36

camp and if thought pumping them and

50:38

then you say oh they are allowed

50:40

to to leave and asleep. But.

50:43

You have your controlling them and

50:45

you're controlling the borders. And.

50:47

So there's really is as the people of

50:49

the north to move to the South Bay

50:52

that. What? Happened and on

50:54

us our of the testimonies of people.

50:56

They were bombed by the Israeli Air

50:58

Force. When. People went

51:00

to the south to

51:02

assuming li season. And

51:05

the were bumped up and bird

51:07

The videos came out a few

51:09

days ago from buffer home and

51:11

two days ago from robots. those

51:13

where they tax would bumping refugee

51:15

camps and tense. What? People were

51:18

supposed to be moving into the

51:20

work Now targets of the Israelis

51:22

are moving people back to the

51:24

middle so you're trying to move

51:27

stipulation in that the prisons and

51:29

continue to bomb them and then

51:31

say and justify that oh well

51:33

we actually called them and we

51:36

we we drop lease let's on

51:38

them to ask them to to

51:40

move. And thus thus make

51:42

a justifiable. School system

51:44

out. There was no

51:47

way. And that's just.

51:49

and forming people to move from

51:51

a place to place justify as

51:53

you bumping and killing thousands of

51:55

people and the majority of them

51:57

of civilians i'm not talking about

51:59

just someone who's getting

52:01

his news from TV

52:04

and media outlets. I'm talking

52:07

about someone who has family, someone who

52:09

has lost the

52:12

friends and extended family members in

52:14

this genocide. I

52:17

know what's happening on the ground. I

52:19

hear stories from people firsthand and

52:22

it's painful. And I believe it's

52:25

painful not only for us Palestinians,

52:27

but for people sometimes the ability

52:30

to comprehend that genocide is still

52:32

possible in the 21st century where

52:35

we have the media outlets and

52:37

we have social medias and we

52:39

have embraced this kind of inclusion

52:42

ideas and elevated humanity to a

52:44

supreme status. But

52:46

we still are able to commit genocides.

52:48

We thought that we are done

52:51

with the Holocaust and

52:53

we said never again. Still

52:56

we did it again in many ways in Bosnia. We

52:58

did it again in Rwanda. We

53:01

did it again in Ukraine. We did we

53:03

do it again now in Gaza.

53:06

So humanity has constantly failed, but we

53:09

seem to be in denial of our

53:11

failures to maintain the

53:13

human dignity and livelihood and that's exactly

53:15

what's happening in Gaza. So

53:18

the media in the West I

53:20

believe is complicit in not only

53:22

complicit is active participant and guilty

53:25

and what's happening to justify the genocide

53:28

in Gaza. Just

53:30

trying to underestimate it. If

53:33

you assume you do you pay attention to

53:35

mainstream media in the West when you when

53:37

you look at the headlines when you look

53:39

at the reporting that's done by again a

53:42

really wide range of media outlets

53:45

both more liberal more conservative whatever it's

53:47

it's and

53:49

then when you look at real when you talk to family

53:51

members, you know, do

53:53

you see like a lot of disconnect between

53:55

what's being reported how it's being framed

53:57

and what's actually happening? Yes. Definitely.

54:01

You know, I studied in the States. I lived in

54:03

the States and I visit frequently. So

54:05

I watch the US

54:07

news outlets almost

54:09

every day. And it's disheartening.

54:12

Sometimes it's very frustrating and enraging

54:14

to see how disconnect there

54:17

is between what's the reality on the ground

54:19

and the US media. Definitely.

54:22

And I can tell you why. It's

54:25

interesting, in fact, that

54:27

these outlets don't have reporters on the

54:29

ground and the reporters are not allowed

54:31

to be on the ground. And

54:34

they only get their information

54:37

from the Israeli military who's

54:39

committing the genocide. While

54:41

people who are on the ground

54:44

denied access to these media outlets

54:46

to share their information. So

54:49

what happened? Younger people lost their

54:52

trust in those media

54:54

outlets because they see on social media

54:57

first hand from Palestinians who are

54:59

going to get through the genocide

55:01

moving from the north of Gaza

55:03

to the south of Gaza now to the middle. And

55:06

they get to see the documentation.

55:08

It's a live stream genocide by

55:11

Palestinians, journalists, even civilians who started

55:13

using their phones in order to

55:15

recommend to document the

55:19

atrocities committed against them. So

55:21

it's interesting how people can trust the

55:24

media outlets where they don't have reporters

55:27

and they distrust and question the

55:29

credibility of those who are going

55:31

through the genocide. There's been polls

55:34

taken. It's really fascinating that the

55:36

age demographic in America

55:40

is like opinions on the conflict.

55:43

Maybe that may be the more conflict is too soft of

55:45

a term, but for the sake of just the

55:48

opinion on what's going on is really split

55:50

in age demographic. Older People

55:52

are typically way more on the side of Israel.

55:54

Younger people are way more not on the side

55:56

of Israel. And They, they showed that like a

55:58

lot of this is the. The younger people

56:00

are on tic toc. And. Other

56:02

social media to get a most of

56:05

these social media and he got tic

56:07

toc Any have I mean loads of

56:09

videos from Israeli soldiers have been filming

56:11

and like looting and pillaging and and

56:14

spouting off genocidal rhetoric. and you have

56:16

you have footage taken from Palestinians of

56:18

what's actually happening and and younger people

56:20

just aren't the not watching Cnn in

56:23

other not watching Fox News they're just

56:25

seen first hand what's going on and.

56:28

That's. Really saw someone is. A

56:30

eyes it's er, it's disheartening. Everything is disheartening,

56:32

but it's it. On a sociological level, it

56:35

is fascinating know that them the means by

56:37

which we get our information is is just

56:39

determines kind of our perspective on things. A

56:44

France is Theology Nra has blessed or

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challenge do and any significant way would

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you consider supporting the So financially can

56:50

do so through Patron at patron.com Forward/theology

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57:11

is. It means the world to ask

57:13

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57:17

expenses and all the where to go

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then the pointed out the again if

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you would like to support the series

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get a page on.com Forward/the Alex Ross

57:26

and as for think my the people

57:28

that are already supported the show thank

57:30

you so much for keeping this so

57:32

not only going but also thriving So

57:35

peach on.com ports last The Arjen Rudd.

57:40

I. Still haven't returned to the checkpoint

57:42

lasted but I have to ask. A.

57:45

Meteorite Committed. Follow Jesus,

57:48

you're christian theologian. Ah,

57:51

How have you felt. About

57:53

the response from the Evangelical

57:56

Church. In. the west and i was

57:58

a big even joke it's it's unless it's it's big,

58:00

broad statement. But

58:02

in my experience, it seems like

58:04

still most evangelicals

58:07

in the West are, they

58:10

think they would say, Israel

58:12

is justified. This is not a genocide.

58:15

They have a right to self-defense. They

58:17

are just trying to get Hamas, war is hell.

58:20

You know, all the talking points I know you've

58:22

heard. How does that

58:24

make the Christian community and among

58:26

Palestinians feel when they hear the response

58:28

from the Western evangelical church? I

58:31

would quote an Anglican missionary

58:34

in Palestine and Lebanon in

58:36

the 1940s who wrote

58:39

back to his Anglican mission agency

58:41

that Palestinian Christians feel betrayed by

58:44

the Christian West. This

58:47

was in the 1940s. We

58:49

still feel betrayed by the Christian West. Not

58:52

only is a group of Christians who

58:54

are Palestinians, but

58:57

actually we feel that the West betrayed

58:59

even its own values to be committed

59:01

to Christ message, peace

59:03

and foremost. You know, we

59:05

get asked about our political position

59:07

as Palestinian Christians who are committed

59:10

to the just cause of our

59:12

people. But we always say that our

59:15

focus and our center is Jesus and his

59:17

kingdom. So for

59:19

example, when Hamas started with its violence

59:23

against the Israelis as kind of

59:25

liberation method, Palestinian

59:28

Christians such as Na'im Atik brought

59:30

his justice and only justice calling

59:32

Palestinian Christians for nonviolent resistance and

59:35

Palestinian Christians and priests that in

59:39

terms of Palestinian Christians who are committed

59:41

to Jesus and to

59:44

the good news of the kingdom that

59:46

we don't respond to violence with

59:49

violence, but we embrace a nonviolent

59:51

resistance that calls out

59:53

the humanity in our oppressors in order

59:55

to liberate them from the sin of

59:57

oppression alongside our own lives.

1:00:01

Unfortunately, what I see in the evangelicals in

1:00:03

America, there is a fascination in war and

1:00:05

death rather than in the presence

1:00:08

of peace and peace. There

1:00:10

is this embrace of colonial

1:00:13

supremacy rather than

1:00:15

humility. At the beginning of

1:00:18

this whole experience

1:00:20

of atrocities and genocide, a couple

1:00:23

of Palestinian theologians published

1:00:25

a cult to repentance. We called the church

1:00:27

in the West I

1:00:47

was reading a book, just actually

1:00:50

finished this book, fascinating and I believe the church in

1:00:52

America needs to read it, Merer of

1:00:54

the church. It's about the

1:00:56

genocide in Rwanda. And

1:00:59

Immanuel. I have that book. Yeah, it's not well

1:01:01

known. But yeah, I

1:01:03

yeah, it's fascinating. It's powerful

1:01:05

testimony. And he talks

1:01:07

about how one of

1:01:09

the reasons of the genocide in Rwanda was

1:01:11

that the blood

1:01:14

of tribalism is thicker than the

1:01:16

water of baptism. And

1:01:18

unfortunately, that's what we see here

1:01:21

in Palestine. How the evangelical

1:01:24

West or Christians in

1:01:26

general not to be very restricted

1:01:28

to evangelicals because Catholics and many

1:01:30

other denominations are also inclined

1:01:34

to uphold the Zionist

1:01:36

ideology. Joe Biden is

1:01:38

a Zionist who's a Catholic. As

1:01:41

an example, it seems that

1:01:44

the interests of racial

1:01:48

colonial ideology is more important

1:01:50

than the clicia, the

1:01:52

people of God, the body of Christ

1:01:54

that brings us together. For

1:01:56

me as Palestinian Christian, I'll

1:01:59

take advantage of. being here with you. And

1:02:03

I think to call the church in the

1:02:05

west for repentance.

1:02:10

Because I believe

1:02:12

we should be

1:02:15

followers of Jesus, committed

1:02:17

to the message of the gospel, rather

1:02:20

than our nationalism. Don't

1:02:23

let our nationalism, the blood

1:02:25

of our nationalism, be thicker than the

1:02:28

water of baptism that brings us and unites

1:02:30

us as what if Christ. I'm

1:02:33

not super powerful. I've

1:02:35

often said that whenever I think

1:02:37

about politics or just

1:02:39

my place in the world, my starting

1:02:41

point is I am fundamentally

1:02:44

a member of Christ's global, multi-ethnic kingdom

1:02:46

that has been exiled among the nations.

1:02:48

That's my starting point. When I think

1:02:50

about immigration, when I think about war,

1:02:53

when I think about whatever, and I

1:02:55

do fear that when I hear other

1:02:58

American, especially American evangelical Christians, their

1:03:00

starting point is more of their

1:03:02

national identity. And even

1:03:05

if Israel I would see as an

1:03:07

extension of American nationalism. And so when

1:03:10

something breaks out, like the current war,

1:03:13

conflict, which side of

1:03:15

my, which ones, I

1:03:18

don't want to be on the side of Hamas, so I must be on

1:03:20

the side of Israel, rather than say, and I'm going to be on the

1:03:22

side of the thousands of civilians

1:03:24

on either side that are caught

1:03:26

up in this conflict. The militarism,

1:03:31

again, maybe on kind

1:03:34

of on both sides, but it's a little unbalanced,

1:03:36

let's say. And

1:03:39

also our, we have

1:03:41

family, like we Christians have

1:03:43

spiritual family members like

1:03:45

you and your brothers and

1:03:47

sisters. We have brothers and sisters in Christ who

1:03:50

are weeping over what

1:03:52

is going on. Like that's my

1:03:54

primary side, you know, like that's

1:03:57

brothers and sisters in Christ. And Jesus,

1:04:00

Jesus himself says in Mark 3 and

1:04:03

other paths are Mark 6 that, you

1:04:06

know, our spiritual bond runs just

1:04:08

as thick as any kind of

1:04:10

blood bond that somebody would have.

1:04:12

And I don't know, that's my motivation for

1:04:14

having you on here and other mutual friends that

1:04:17

I'm getting, I feel like I'm going to know

1:04:19

a lot of Palestinian Christians over there and they,

1:04:22

I'm fascinated at how

1:04:24

dominant the

1:04:26

nonviolent ethic of Jesus

1:04:28

is among Palestinian Christians. Like,

1:04:31

so I embraced that ethic, but

1:04:34

I'm in the minority in the evangelical church,

1:04:36

you know, like this is not like I'm a

1:04:38

fish out of water here, but it's, is it

1:04:40

the opposite there? Like if

1:04:43

you're a Palestinian Christian, the default

1:04:45

is you believe in the nonviolent

1:04:47

ethic. Would that be an accurate summary? Yes. The

1:04:50

vast majority of Palestinian Christians believe

1:04:52

and even Palestinians believe

1:04:54

in peaceful nonviolent resistance and

1:04:57

not only Christians, but the vast majority

1:04:59

also Palestinians. We

1:05:01

have many examples in terms

1:05:03

of theologians or institutions that

1:05:05

promote nonviolence and

1:05:09

calls for justice and peace. And

1:05:13

for example, we can talk

1:05:15

about Keros Palisine, Sabil Center

1:05:18

for Theology of

1:05:20

Liberation, Beethalambab, a college institution that

1:05:22

I teach at

1:05:25

and minister to people through. You

1:05:28

have 10th of nations. This

1:05:30

is a land family that the Israeli settlers

1:05:33

have been trying to annex for so long

1:05:35

on Palestinian families, resisting peacefully,

1:05:38

nonviolently that these attempts to

1:05:40

occupy their land. So

1:05:44

it's part of our deep conviction

1:05:47

that we have the responsibility

1:05:49

to carry the cross

1:05:51

of Jesus and to

1:05:53

have the humility to obey his

1:05:55

teaching, even when it seems not

1:05:58

easy. And

1:06:01

I think we are examined with

1:06:03

of fire when it comes to

1:06:05

our we follow Jesus or we

1:06:08

are only flown out national interests

1:06:10

and want to Christianity is gloomy

1:06:12

and nice. We are christian but

1:06:14

when it's. A state

1:06:16

and will sort to interpret the gospel

1:06:18

in a way that fits on our.

1:06:21

Agenda. And our national

1:06:23

interest. In a Yousef I I'd

1:06:25

I'd never came back to at I I.

1:06:27

I know it kind of them fit the

1:06:30

context of Talk About Now but I did

1:06:32

want to ask about ah the checkpoint because

1:06:34

I'm I know this this is something that

1:06:36

sits I'm grow into my understanding of it.

1:06:38

I've never experienced that I actually did experience

1:06:40

and as American tourist and but I didn't

1:06:42

even think of it. Was it the a

1:06:44

miracle Doris It's like. Easier.

1:06:46

Measure of attack point you know, but like, what?

1:06:48

what is? What? Is what is

1:06:51

your experience like as a Palestinian at

1:06:53

these checkpoints and proceeds? Maybe explain A

1:06:55

for some it has no clue but

1:06:57

we're even talk about so some as

1:06:59

really two points are all over the

1:07:01

Palestinian territory and and. Areas

1:07:04

that separates a better thing that there

1:07:06

is a from his were the ones

1:07:08

are is roughly around in between as

1:07:10

a temporarily and permanent ones that are

1:07:13

five hundred two points on over. The.

1:07:16

Country. Mainly to

1:07:18

dominate and control the Palestinian

1:07:20

movement. And basic points to

1:07:23

tell us. In

1:07:25

the vast majority capella things who

1:07:27

can go through Beastie Boys need

1:07:30

to the mission. to

1:07:32

can just go through the checkpoint

1:07:34

without the permission in a to

1:07:36

permission granted by the israeli military

1:07:38

in order to go through the

1:07:41

checkpoint and to pass through it

1:07:43

unless if it's a checkpoint and

1:07:45

between a set of funny and

1:07:47

downs than most latest release military

1:07:49

when they stopped shooting from interrogate

1:07:52

or look at your id which

1:07:54

is also approved by the israeli

1:07:56

military in order to pass through

1:07:58

but let's talk about the Israeli

1:08:00

military checkpoints that in Bethlehem, for example,

1:08:03

that separates Bethlehem from Jerusalem

1:08:05

or in some parts of Hebron,

1:08:08

all city to other

1:08:10

part. These are buildings,

1:08:14

military power, and

1:08:16

it looks like an airport where you come

1:08:18

to Chik'en, but it's for the high

1:08:20

intensity of security. But

1:08:23

Palestinians can only go through the checkpoints

1:08:26

walking where the Israelis can cross

1:08:28

checkpoints driving. So for

1:08:30

Palestinian to go through the checkpoint, they have

1:08:32

to walk like about half

1:08:34

a mile through several

1:08:37

security checks through the checkpoint

1:08:40

before getting to the line where

1:08:42

they have that Chik'en, for example, like

1:08:44

in the airport, to cross

1:08:46

to the other side of the checkpoint. People

1:08:49

experience deep humiliation

1:08:52

on checkpoints. So

1:08:54

even those who have permission sometimes

1:08:57

takes them an hour to cross from

1:08:59

place to place. For example, my

1:09:01

father-in-law who worked in construction for

1:09:07

years, almost 30 years,

1:09:09

he used to work in

1:09:11

Jerusalem. And

1:09:13

his workplace is only 20

1:09:15

minutes drive from his house.

1:09:18

But in order to get to work around

1:09:20

seven, he used to leave his house

1:09:22

around 5 a.m. So

1:09:25

it can take a Palestinian to go for

1:09:27

10 or 20 minutes drive. It

1:09:31

can take them like two or three hours because

1:09:34

of military checkpoints. My

1:09:36

personal experience at the checkpoint varied

1:09:40

from extremely difficult ones

1:09:42

where I was stripped naked and

1:09:45

searched thoroughly by

1:09:47

the Israeli military and left

1:09:49

naked in an open-air prison for

1:09:52

six hours before being

1:09:54

asked to dress back and was

1:09:58

permitted to leave. many

1:10:00

times that I was denied even

1:10:02

to to pass to Jerusalem with

1:10:04

my family. My last

1:10:06

experience was traumatizing to me

1:10:08

but also to my niece, my only

1:10:11

niece. Her name

1:10:13

is Maha and Maha was nine

1:10:15

years old and we went to the checkpoint and

1:10:18

the plan was we were going

1:10:20

to go to Jerusalem together. And

1:10:23

my niece Maha, originally from Gaza,

1:10:25

she was here on a

1:10:27

Christmas trip after the humiliation

1:10:30

that we as family

1:10:32

experience, including Maha and myself,

1:10:35

the Israelis denied me

1:10:37

entry and Maha had to

1:10:39

leave with the rest of the group. And whenever

1:10:41

I call Maha she tells me like I don't want

1:10:43

to come back to it, like I don't want to

1:10:46

go through that again. If in the

1:10:49

future you can come and see me that's

1:10:51

perfect. But for her

1:10:53

the trauma still exists. It's part of

1:10:55

her experience at the checkpoint and it's

1:10:58

part of our own experiences, Palestinians in

1:11:00

general. Those who were killed

1:11:02

at the checkpoint, women who were pregnant

1:11:04

and are giving birth weren't allowed by

1:11:06

the Israeli military to go

1:11:08

through checkpoints and they died with

1:11:10

their babies. So

1:11:13

the Palestinian experience of the checkpoint is

1:11:16

as one of who we are,

1:11:18

it became part of us. That's

1:11:21

why even theologically when we talk

1:11:23

about our theology became part of it.

1:11:26

What would Jesus do if he stands

1:11:28

at the Israeli military

1:11:30

checkpoint today? How he

1:11:32

would react to the Israeli soldiers. And

1:11:34

that's how the whole concept

1:11:37

of Christ at the checkpoint as a conference

1:11:40

at Bethlehem Bible College started. How

1:11:42

as Palestinian Christians, evangelicals in

1:11:45

our tradition, we

1:11:47

imagine Jesus would respond to

1:11:51

standing or crossing a

1:11:55

military checkpoint. Thank you Yousif for sharing

1:11:57

that. I'm sure it's hard to even

1:11:59

rehearse it. in your own mind. Before

1:12:01

we go, what would you

1:12:03

like to say to our audience? Any final words you

1:12:05

can say whatever you want? Most

1:12:08

of my audience are evangelical Christian. I mean, it's

1:12:10

around the world, but mostly in North

1:12:12

America. So, yeah, the floor is yours. What

1:12:15

do you want to tell us all? Yes. I

1:12:17

believe as followers of Jesus,

1:12:20

to be Christians, followers of Jesus from different

1:12:23

church families and denominations,

1:12:26

we are called for one thing, to carry

1:12:28

the good news, to preach the good news

1:12:30

and to live out the good news

1:12:32

of this world. And to choose

1:12:35

what our priorities lay. Is

1:12:37

it on Jesus and the

1:12:39

gospel of the kingdom

1:12:41

or on the empire and

1:12:44

the presidents and the emperors of

1:12:46

these worlds? This

1:12:48

concludes nationalism, racism, and, if

1:12:51

not, religious supremacy. I

1:12:53

think our calling first and

1:12:55

foremost is to be obedient

1:12:57

to Jesus. And it's most

1:12:59

importantly when it's costly, what's

1:13:02

uncomfortable, and it even

1:13:05

feels against the grain of what's happening

1:13:07

around the world. And in these times,

1:13:10

what we really need from our

1:13:12

evangelicals, evangelical and Christian

1:13:16

brothers and sisters, first to be

1:13:18

committed to Jesus fully. Because

1:13:20

I know when we commit to Jesus fully,

1:13:23

these barriers between us will fend down. Second,

1:13:27

it's very important to educate yourself about

1:13:29

what's happening in the history and the

1:13:31

theology. A lot of

1:13:33

great resources available out there from

1:13:35

Palestinian Christian theologians, Bible

1:13:38

teachers, stories

1:13:41

of families and biographies, memoirs of Palestinians

1:13:43

who went through with an act, who

1:13:46

experienced war atrocities firsthand.

1:13:49

And just with open heart and

1:13:52

mind, with the humility, learn.

1:13:56

I think just educate yourself, learn about

1:13:58

it. and

1:14:00

foremost, I think it's important

1:14:02

because it can change a lot.

1:14:04

Just come and see us. Come

1:14:07

see us. Go with us

1:14:10

through Bethlehem, through the chip points. Let us

1:14:12

show you the reality on the ground because

1:14:15

for many people, the reality, what we are

1:14:17

talking about seems unreal because

1:14:20

it's too much to handle. But

1:14:22

when they come to Bethlehem, when they come

1:14:25

to Palestine, when they watch the

1:14:27

stories of Palestinians, they

1:14:30

get the head that actually it is. And

1:14:33

after that, I think it's very

1:14:35

important to examine where

1:14:37

we stand. To be standing in

1:14:39

solidarity with the Palestinian people, I

1:14:42

don't mean to be pro-Palestine or

1:14:44

anti-Israel or pro-Israel anti-Palestine. I mean

1:14:47

to be pro-Jesus and pro the

1:14:49

kingdom of God and gospel of

1:14:51

the kingdom, which sees

1:14:53

the face of God in

1:14:55

the Palestinian and Israeli alike and

1:14:57

thinks that both groups of people

1:15:00

are worthy of life and dignity

1:15:02

because Jesus Christ died on the

1:15:04

cross for them in

1:15:06

order to bring about justification, liberation,

1:15:08

and redemption to all people. So

1:15:11

this is my message. Yousif, thank you

1:15:13

so much for taking your valuable time

1:15:15

to be on Theology in Iraq. Do

1:15:18

you have a website or anything

1:15:20

you want to, if people want to find more about

1:15:22

you and your work, where can people go? I work

1:15:25

at Bethlehem Bible College. I have some

1:15:28

videos online on YouTube. I don't have

1:15:30

a website yet, so

1:15:32

maybe in the future. But

1:15:35

you can read what

1:15:37

I write about Palestine, the

1:15:39

theology from Palestine

1:15:42

on Bethlehem Bible College website and

1:15:44

Christ at the Chukwui. Please pass

1:15:46

on our blessings and

1:15:48

greetings and prayers to our family members

1:15:50

in the West Bank and Gaza. So

1:15:52

thanks so much for your time. Thank

1:15:55

you so much. Thank you. This

1:16:20

show is part of the Converge Podcast

1:16:22

Network.