0:00

We were in the car and you said, they

0:02

didn't like, where do you see yourself in 10

0:04

years? Do you still see yourself in yesterday? I

0:06

was like, fuck no. I was feeling it. My,

0:08

my body was just like picking up on the

0:10

signals. I was like, he's going to fucking ask

0:12

me to like edit this or he's going to

0:14

fucking ask me to ghost write it or something.

0:16

And I would just tell Sandrine, Matt thinks he's

0:19

going to fucking finish this book in a month.

0:21

And then sometimes I would be like, Matt really

0:23

thinks he's going to finish this book in a

0:25

month. What's going

0:27

on guys? You may be wondering why I

0:29

am laying down on a stack of books.

0:31

It's because I am at the warehouse

0:34

and I'm signing literally thousands of

0:36

these because of you. For

0:38

everybody that's ordered, pre-ordered, supported in any

0:41

way. Again, thank you so much.

0:43

If you haven't gotten it already, there's a

0:45

link in the description to get it. And

0:47

if you have read it, there's another link

0:49

under that link for reviews. Honestly,

0:52

as a first time author, reviews

0:54

are truly, truly life-changing. So if you

0:56

have literally 30 seconds, truly it takes

0:58

30 seconds to review

1:00

the book. You can rate it a one, you can rate

1:02

it a five out of five. I don't care. So long

1:04

as you rate it, it really does mean a lot. So

1:07

please go to that link, go to Amazon,

1:09

review it, it means the world. And now

1:11

this is the first podcast since the launch

1:13

of the book with the one and only

1:16

Mr. Darren Emray, who wrote this

1:18

very book with me, my co-writer,

1:20

my best friend, sometimes

1:22

my therapist, sometimes my coach. And

1:25

this podcast, we get into everything from

1:27

our relationship to writing the book

1:29

together and what that process was like. And

1:31

also why both of us decided to eventually

1:34

leave Yes Theory. I think you're gonna

1:36

get per usual so much out of this podcast.

1:39

Again, the podcast squad,

1:41

the people that watch these episodes, listen

1:43

to these episodes, there's like

1:45

a consistent amount of you and you know who you

1:48

are. If you're listening to this and you're like, yeah,

1:50

that's me. I appreciate you. You're

1:52

literally changing my life, supporting

1:55

me in all the ways and I can't thank you

1:58

enough. So enjoy the podcast, much love. Bye.

2:00

All right, cool. Uh-huh. Well, welcome

2:03

to the podcast there. Thank you very much for having

2:05

me at my house. I don't know

2:07

how to let go. Ah! Thank

2:11

you for having us at your house. Thank

2:13

you. It's very cozy. Thanks. I

2:15

think you have more books than anyone I've

2:18

ever met in their house. I

2:20

think it's the biggest library I think I've ever seen. It's

2:23

a burden, that's for sure. But I think,

2:26

I told you, there was another

2:28

writer living before me. So, I

2:31

hope he doesn't watch this podcast. I don't think so.

2:33

But I was sending him his stuff and he

2:35

wanted to call a bunch of his books. And

2:38

he was like, oh man, like, and I was like,

2:41

sorry, we have to get rid of your books. Like, I need

2:43

to send them to you. I loved having

2:45

them for a very long time, but now that my girlfriend's

2:47

moving in, we have to get rid of them. And he

2:49

was like, okay, I've been thinking about this and I'm gonna

2:52

go through a lot

2:54

of my books and I'm gonna give them away. And

2:56

I was like, oh man, that's so sad. We

2:59

won't have space. And then weird enough, I

3:02

kept half of the books that he

3:04

sent away. Wow. Yeah, yeah, so a

3:06

lot of them are over there too. Why?

3:10

Dude, it's research. It's not even research.

3:12

It's just like, it's in your mind.

3:14

Like, I was thinking about this yesterday.

3:16

I was like, how would it

3:18

be if once I fill all these bookshelves

3:21

and like, I don't know, 60 books or

3:23

so, what if I go through them?

3:25

And it's like, is it worth keeping? Is it not

3:27

worth keeping? But at the same time, I think that's

3:29

a good idea. It's good to minimize. It's good to

3:31

let things go. But they're a

3:33

part of your memory as well, which is

3:35

also a burden. But

3:38

I love the fact like, I

3:40

know that that Ryan Holiday book, which is the

3:42

only book I will mention this, like, is so

3:44

much more. But it's like, I know that that's

3:46

your book. Oh, really? Yeah, and

3:49

trust me, I'm lying. You gave it to me

3:51

in Vancouver. And I read it

3:53

then because we were trying to, you

3:55

know, send emails to news

3:57

agencies and whatever. And so I read it then.

4:00

And will I ever keep it? Like

4:02

I don't think so, but I want

4:04

to keep it because that brings back

4:06

that memory I see I see so

4:08

that's why I love like having photos.

4:10

Yeah, of course, of course and not

4:12

tucked away someplace interesting whereas Everything

4:15

that I haven't read is over

4:17

there is over there and over there which is

4:19

also cool because then it's like Well,

4:22

what else is there? And it keeps

4:24

you it's the Japanese word Sundoku I

4:26

think which is like buying more

4:28

books even though you know that you're not

4:30

gonna read that So you have this kind

4:32

of like bookshelf that's falling over idea and

4:34

I love it like yeah when I worked

4:37

at self-storage People

4:39

would leave books sometimes and that's why

4:41

I have random ass like

4:43

art books I'm not a

4:45

bunch of books about Armenians interesting. Oh,

4:48

yeah, but it's fascinating Maybe

4:50

that's like that's a good place to start is

4:53

the self-storage warehouse. Yeah Because

4:57

this is in the book we talked about where you

4:59

go after you leave yes theory 2017 But

5:02

for those that aren't aware of what

5:04

happened after you left, I

5:06

mean I know to an extent what happened

5:10

But even I'm not fully caught

5:12

up. So I'd love to know Yeah,

5:15

the last time people saw you really Yeah

5:18

was in the yes theory video where you say

5:20

goodbye. Yeah in 2017. No I

5:23

Left and it was kind of awesome Because

5:26

I finished a book on the plane and

5:28

I was like, this is the start of

5:30

my new life like I'm gonna Be

5:33

a diligent person and maybe I'm gonna make

5:35

movies and stuff. Sorry good. Maybe go first

5:38

Why did you leave because I mean so

5:41

There are two reasons and I think we get into in

5:43

the book as well The first is one

5:46

my Canada Canadian permanent residency was

5:48

expiring which then I learned Is

5:51

not the case like it was

5:53

expiring but you can always enter via

5:55

land and it's like you

5:57

always have that permanent residency your card

5:59

expires I see so

6:01

it's you're at the mercy

6:03

at the border officer who

6:06

can say okay like come in

6:08

We're gonna get you a new card, but you cannot

6:10

leave for five years or three years or whatever But

6:14

I was expiring and it was gonna be

6:16

risky, and it was just around when Trump

6:18

was acting all erratic Regarding

6:20

Middle East like banning visas and stuff, and I

6:22

was like Turkey's probably safe,

6:25

but at the same time I'm not gonna

6:27

take my chances But at the

6:29

same time I left because I mean we talked about

6:31

this a long time ago I think even six months

6:33

before I left we were in a car. We were

6:36

doing the Beverly Hills episode. I think you're

6:38

like Didn't

6:40

like because you were you're picking

6:43

at me You know like because you knew that I

6:45

was more like an employee as opposed to

6:47

a co-founder Because my mind

6:49

wasn't hundred percent there I could do the

6:51

tasks, but I wasn't gonna think about some

6:53

stuff though I was very happy to provide

6:55

you know like my opinions etc No matter

6:58

how unsolicited sometimes, but at the same time

7:00

solicited because I was a co-founder, but it's

7:02

like You we were in

7:04

the car, and you said didn't like where

7:06

do you see yourself in ten years? Do you still? See

7:10

yourself in yesteria. I was like fuck now When

7:14

you're like why and I said well there's so

7:17

much else to do and

7:19

I was like Matt Do you see yourself

7:21

in yesteria after ten years, and you're like

7:23

hell? Yeah, dude I

7:26

said okay Which

7:28

is something that I was very much

7:30

afraid of ever since the beginning like

7:34

My father was the only one of our parents.

7:36

I think who was very supportive I remember I

7:38

was in Ray's room, and I was like dad what the

7:40

hell is going on like we're doing 30 things in 30 days It's

7:43

a YouTube channel. He was like go for it content

7:45

is king For

7:50

sure, but I was always very

7:52

afraid honestly to Be

7:55

a part of something no

7:58

matter like whether it's freemium or

8:00

yes theory or anything, that's why I

8:02

hate branded stuff, because your identity

8:05

becomes a part of it. And the more that

8:07

we continued, the more that was going to be

8:09

the case, because it was growing and so on.

8:11

And now honestly, after seeing it after eight years,

8:13

and I'm sure like we talked about it too,

8:16

it's scary. Like a large part of

8:18

your life, especially your adult life is

8:20

tied to this thing. And if you want

8:23

to have something out of it,

8:25

like stray thoughts or whatever, it would be very

8:27

difficult. It's kind of like when I did No

8:29

Theory and there was a backlash because it

8:31

wasn't inspirational enough. And

8:34

so I never, I couldn't

8:36

commit, honestly. And I think that Canadian

8:38

thing was a really good time to

8:40

leave. Although I always say

8:43

I would have loved to wait six more

8:45

months to see the beginning of the roller

8:47

coaster, like when the algorithm picked up, and

8:50

also get a blue checkmark for Instagram for a

8:52

profile that had no photos. I think that would

8:54

have been hilarious. And then I

8:56

could have left. But yeah,

8:58

so that's why I left. Like, I think I

9:01

loved you guys. I loved the experiences.

9:03

But I like and

9:06

this is this is your pull quote. It's

9:08

like I hated I hated a lot

9:11

of it. Because it's like

9:14

filmmaking. It's a lot of like

9:16

break go break go. And then

9:18

there's some magic that happens that

9:20

you couldn't have anywhere else. Except

9:23

with this group, except with this channel.

9:25

And that's sometimes it's all worth

9:27

it. But at the same time,

9:30

that stop and start taking place in a

9:32

virtual world of YouTube that I didn't like

9:34

at all. That was that weighed very

9:36

heavy on me. And I was being more and more

9:38

a part of it, especially with the Los Angeles circle,

9:41

lovely people, but not my kind. So

9:43

I was like, this is enough discomfort. Like,

9:45

there's a time when you want to do

9:47

something, but you cannot because you have discomfort.

9:49

There are times when you're like, yeah, this

9:51

is not me. I'm gonna listen to my

9:53

heart and then I'll go. So

9:55

I left. Thanks

9:57

to all of your understanding.

10:00

honestly, which was very, very nice because I

10:02

think that put friendship over the

10:04

channel at the same time, which also helped the channel,

10:06

I think, because I was grounding

10:08

you, which also meant I was holding

10:10

you down, that I think you couldn't

10:12

be as extravagant and as silly and

10:14

whatever because I would be the cynical

10:16

one who would be like, guys, is

10:19

this a good idea? Because

10:21

most of the good ideas were stupid. And

10:24

I mean this in the best sense of the

10:26

meaning. Anyway,

10:32

and then I left. It was good. I moved to

10:34

Toronto where my mom was living and

10:36

she was living in this one bedroom

10:39

condo. And then we lived

10:41

there for six, seven months together, which was kind

10:43

of like a harkening back to our adolescent

10:46

life. And honestly, it

10:48

was fine. It was good for six,

10:51

seven months. And

10:55

I worked on a bunch of the movies that I wanted

10:57

to make. I remade some

10:59

of the movies. And then I

11:03

like caused some stir in

11:06

the Toronto indie film community. And

11:08

I was very arrogant. I was like, oh,

11:10

I'm going to come back. And I'm like, I'm just

11:12

going to lock myself in a room. And

11:14

I'm going to make the most amazing movies that you'll

11:16

ever seen. And you'll have no other choice but to

11:19

accept my genius. That wasn't the case at

11:21

all. As I

11:23

said, I stir some shit up and then none of

11:26

my films got accepted because they were too out there.

11:28

Not in the sense that they just didn't

11:30

fit the mold. And

11:33

even if they did, I don't think that they were that good.

11:36

And so afterwards, I

11:39

came to Montreal in July of 2018, spent

11:41

some time here. That

11:45

was when the financial crisis hit. And then I

11:47

kind of got penniless. And that's when I asked

11:49

for the snapshot money from you. Financial

11:53

crisis hit in Turkey. And then I came

11:55

back from Montreal

11:58

back to Toronto for two, three years. months, this

12:00

was in beginning of 2019 and

12:02

this was when I had

12:05

applied for a new permanent residency. Like I

12:07

could finally leave Canada because

12:09

otherwise you cannot. If you leave, it's the same

12:11

thing. Your permanent residency expired, you

12:13

cannot use the same card to come back

12:16

in. And that's when I

12:18

was going insane. Like that was very difficult. And

12:21

so I went back to Turkey, that

12:23

was amazing after like two

12:25

years because that gave me a lot

12:27

of, you know, like revitalization.

12:30

And then I came to Los Angeles to

12:32

meet up with you guys for your Iron Man

12:34

as well. And that gave me again another dose

12:37

of revitalization because it was like, I

12:39

will always have this. Like I love this. I

12:42

don't like it that much. And I remember being in

12:44

Los Angeles and I was like, what am I doing

12:47

here right now? I would go to museums and I enjoyed

12:49

it. But I

12:52

remembered like the logistics of Los

12:54

Angeles was very tiring. And

12:56

then I came back to Toronto and I was like,

12:58

yes, like I'm going to fucking like finish this movie.

13:00

And I finished another movie. It was

13:02

good. It was great. And then

13:04

I moved to Montreal and again, 2019 to this apartment.

13:09

It was very cheap. Like God, like

13:12

you never don't

13:14

let my landlord see this. But

13:17

then and

13:19

then I had a friend who moved in with

13:21

me for a while. And

13:24

then I actually like didn't

13:26

have money. I was like, oh, fuck. I

13:29

need to find a job. And I was getting very stressed. And

13:32

as soon as it was a feeling

13:34

that I never felt before. And

13:38

I applied for libraries, like a bunch

13:40

of bookstores, etc. Because

13:43

that's what I was good at, you know, and that's what I

13:45

wanted to do. None of

13:47

them answered. My French wasn't that good enough either.

13:51

And then through contact

13:54

of my uncle, who a

13:57

Turkish friend who used to own

13:59

warehouses in Montreal. I

14:02

had dinner with him and I casually was like,

14:04

hey, do you have a job? He was like,

14:06

yeah, there's a job at the self-storage warehouse, whatever.

14:08

I was like, I'll take it. And he was

14:10

like, yeah, you'll get to read all day. I

14:12

was like, I'll definitely take that down. And

14:15

then I started working at a self-storage and

14:17

that was such a relief. It was amazing

14:20

to be in a

14:22

country where minimum wage could keep

14:24

me going. Like it paid for here, it

14:26

paid for a lot of other, not luxury, but

14:29

you know, like I could eat out one day

14:31

at a time and so on. And then I

14:33

could save money too. It was

14:35

a huge relief. And

14:37

I worked there with almost

14:40

like 10, 15 other Turkish people in

14:42

these branches in mine. There were two,

14:44

three Turkish people from two

14:47

villages in Western Turkey

14:50

who had emigrated here in 30

14:53

years ago. And that was

14:55

an experience that definitely

14:57

was like, oh yeah, okay. So this is what

14:59

immigrants are like. This is not just like, hey,

15:01

like I'm going to come to Canada and like,

15:04

how shall I say this? Like I'm going to

15:06

be a filmmaker. It wasn't like that.

15:08

It was very much like, oh, these people have been working

15:10

in the same job. They're making okay money, but at the

15:12

same time, this is what they

15:14

are here for. This is their case almost,

15:16

like unless they want to move up and

15:19

whatever. But this is the socioeconomic

15:25

part for them, even if they make good money, you

15:27

know. And

15:29

so that's where I improved my French. I

15:32

read all day and it was very weird

15:34

because I was very overqualified for the job.

15:36

And I enjoyed it a lot because I get to

15:38

talk to people. And I think I was a

15:41

lot of people who are, let's

15:43

say, more tired, like

15:45

with their job and everything. I get that. But

15:48

I was just like, I was always welcoming people

15:50

with a smile because I thought it was funny.

15:52

Like I was so out of place and I

15:54

could talk to these people. I had

15:56

a huge beard, even bigger than this one. And

16:00

yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.

16:02

And then after six months, I started enjoying it

16:04

a bit less because it was like, OK, it's

16:06

February, and it's still the same thing, and it's

16:08

dreary. And that's

16:10

when I understood also how

16:13

that can become tiring, that fatigue. But

16:15

also, again, how a 9 to 5

16:17

prevents you from achieving actual change sometimes

16:19

in your life. Imagine

16:22

if people were working in factories for 12 hours

16:24

a day, six days a week, whatever. This

16:27

is the good part of a

16:29

9 to 5. If these

16:31

are workers' rights achieved with a 9 to

16:33

5, I still think

16:35

that we're not there yet because you

16:37

have no time to think about, how

16:39

can our conditions be improved, whatever, when

16:42

you are so busy with actual work?

16:44

And there's demands, even

16:46

if they're abstract. And

16:49

then COVID hit. And then that's when

16:51

I had some talks with

16:53

the job, and then I didn't

16:57

go anymore. They let me go.

16:59

And then the Canadian government started

17:01

helping people out. And that's when I had sold

17:03

my shares as well. I

17:05

waited for my shares to be in my bank

17:07

account for two years, I think,

17:09

after I sold them. And that was a stressful

17:11

time because I did not know. And then COVID

17:14

was happening. And then afterwards, I've

17:16

been here, just writing and

17:18

doing some stuff. Yeah,

17:21

after that, not much has changed, honestly,

17:23

after COVID. And for money now, what

17:25

do you do? Co-writing the history. Co-writing

17:28

the history. Please write this book. Please write this

17:30

book. No,

17:32

not much, honestly. God

17:35

knows. I'm still eating from

17:37

my savings. And there

17:41

are ways that the Canadian government

17:43

can support artists through filmmaking and

17:45

whatever. They haven't supported me. But

17:49

there are, who knows? You build a

17:51

career, and that's how you get some funding, and so on.

17:53

It's not going to be enough, but it will be enough

17:55

to cover the cost of, let's say, a movie, which when

17:57

you pay out of your own pocket, it's not going to

17:59

be too much but when the government pays

18:01

you that much it's not that much for

18:04

them. Yeah. Anyway. So

18:06

the book does well so DARE doesn't have to work for a

18:08

few more years. I

18:11

would be willing to go back honestly to a job

18:13

especially if I have

18:16

a lot of free time. I'd love to

18:18

be a night watchman. I always wanted to

18:20

be like a customs officer in a border like

18:22

where there would be nobody. I saw

18:24

you at custody. Passport

18:27

please, DARE. But

18:29

not even. It's like

18:31

in the middle of nowhere.

18:33

You know. Just like two

18:35

cars every day and then you just get

18:37

to read. It's fine. Sounds like

18:39

the worst thing ever. Why? Like

18:41

I would just get so... I mean you

18:44

could read for a few hours but then I'd be like I just want

18:46

to like challenge myself.

18:48

Like I want to do you know.

18:51

Oh for sure. More challenging things. But

18:54

a lot of people don't have that privilege. Yeah yeah I agree.

18:57

But if you do you might as well... Yeah.

19:00

Oh of course. Of course. Like you treat

19:02

it as a playground and I think it would get tired

19:04

after a while but that's all to... That's

19:07

not to say like I would read all day. More

19:09

so like I would write in the

19:11

morning and go to work. So you

19:14

still prepare yourself for a better future.

19:16

This is just your Kafka's

19:18

bank clerk job. I see. Which

19:21

helps by the way. It does help. Einstein

19:23

has the same thing. Really? He was a

19:25

post office clerk I think. Really? I

19:28

think so. Patent office? Patent office. I'm

19:31

not sure. One of those two. Yeah. When

19:34

he was coming up for the theory of relativity he was working a like

19:36

a I think a full time job as a patent

19:39

or post office. Really? Yeah we'll have to

19:41

look it up. But yeah. So

19:43

he was just like late in his late 20s like

19:46

not a known scientist in

19:48

any way and he wrote

19:50

like I think three papers that

19:52

revolutionized physics and nobody

19:55

knew about it I think for a few years. Yeah.

19:58

I mean a few people did but it didn't become well known. So

20:00

maybe that's you maybe you're like

20:02

Einstein and then three years after people like

20:05

Darren Emory worked at the same place. I

20:07

did in the self-stored warehouse. That's a lot

20:09

of pressure No pressure,

20:11

but also I think times

20:14

have changed Mm-hmm like that's why I

20:16

think adapting to it is Important

20:18

and I don't know how because I think a

20:20

lot of the biographies and whatever that I know

20:23

of are from a different time When Einstein is

20:25

like to his wife You're gonna

20:27

make me dinner every day and like you're gonna wash

20:29

my underwear every day and that's not the relationship

20:31

I have with my girlfriend even though I

20:34

understand how easy it is to

20:36

in one relationship to Like

20:39

give all the responsibility now that you have someone

20:41

who's like picking up the

20:43

slack sometimes Which

20:46

is something that you need to be very well aware of

20:48

and also the times have changed with money

20:50

and success And I don't

20:52

know if you can do the same Oh, I'll

20:55

just be a blank clerk for a while

20:57

until like I hit a

20:59

big one with this book I think it has

21:01

changed to you have to work 24 hours to

21:03

your own social media thing Which

21:06

can give you some money maybe good enough a

21:08

good amount of money, but not Enough

21:11

to hit it. We hit a home

21:13

run so to speak Depends

21:15

there are liars per usual, but yeah.

21:17

Yeah Okay, so we

21:19

thank you for the biography sir So

21:23

long that I appreciate it even for me It's helpful

21:25

to know the timeline of it because I thought you

21:27

had gone to the self storage warehouse. No, no, no

21:32

In 2022 in the

21:34

summer of 2022 you've received a call from yours truly a Call

21:40

that says what Darryl? It

21:43

wasn't a call. It was a voicemail. Yeah, it

21:45

was a voice note. Yeah, okay And it was

21:47

like and it was like a two-minute voice note

21:49

And I had just giving you some feedback on

21:51

the book and I was very brutal

21:53

Yeah, and I didn't want to be that brutal so

21:55

I toned it down and I still knew that it

21:57

was brutal But I guess maybe for context so I

21:59

think I sent you the book a few months

22:01

before that in a Google Doc thinking

22:04

I was pretty much finished. And

22:06

I was like, I'm just gonna send it to Darren and like five other

22:08

people, because I really trusted your opinion and I

22:10

know you don't hold back the truth. So I was like,

22:12

fuck it, I'll send it to Darren. And

22:15

then I think you read it fastest and

22:19

I received notes from, I think you read it within

22:21

like a week actually. Two weeks I think. Maybe two

22:23

weeks, yeah, super, super quick. And then you sent me

22:25

the notes and

22:27

I remember reading them. Because

22:32

this had been my third draft. And

22:34

I was completely wiped

22:36

out. And I

22:38

so cared about what you thought about it.

22:41

So to see, to just go, I literally just

22:43

scrolled through. I didn't even like go into detail

22:45

about every single one. It was like, it

22:48

felt like every page. It was like, why are you doing

22:50

this? What the fuck

22:52

is this doing here? Like what the, blah,

22:54

blah, blah, why are you talking about this? You

22:56

know, and then like crossing out whole paragraphs. It

23:00

was so demoralizing, dude. It was so,

23:02

I was actually, my friend had, my

23:06

friend and I had gone off for a little break out of

23:08

LA for a little bit. And I

23:10

was supposed to be on vacation, like a post

23:13

writing break, but I couldn't resist

23:15

checking my email and seeing what you sent back.

23:17

So in the middle of

23:19

that break, I read it. And

23:22

I literally, it

23:24

was right after I read yours. Because

23:27

Alex Benay and my friend give me actually

23:29

similar feedback around the same time.

23:32

And I was like, these two people I really respect do

23:34

not like this book. And I

23:37

walked outside and there's this like

23:39

beautiful view overlooking the ocean. And I was like, I'm

23:42

not fucking doing it. I'm

23:44

not fucking doing the book. It's not even

23:46

worth it. Yeah, because there were other people

23:48

that were like, yeah, it's pretty good. So

23:50

I, you know, as soon as

23:52

you guys said the feedback, I was like, I can't do it. So

23:56

my coming back from that trip, I was

23:58

like, In LA and that's when

24:01

I talked to him more. I was like, I'm not doing

24:03

it And he's like you you can do it and

24:05

then yeah left you the voicemail being

24:07

like if I'm gonna do this It's

24:10

gonna have to be with you. Yeah, and

24:12

I I don't know I maybe

24:15

I'll just give my chronological Events

24:17

because I love that delusion. I love

24:19

that delusion when you send someone a

24:21

finished piece of work and you think it's gonna be great

24:24

and then they You know break

24:26

it down They smash it

24:28

to the ground which is awesome because that's what

24:30

you need to do It's almost like tearing the

24:32

muscle analogy like You have

24:34

to you have to break it up like you have to

24:37

demolish it again To

24:40

build it up better And

24:43

that's why I don't think I trust anyone who says that If

24:46

something is good, there's always

24:48

something to criticize I I get to

24:50

accept it or not even if something's

24:52

perfect people can criticize it and I'll

24:55

say hey like cool But not not

24:57

no, thank you. But when people are

24:59

like pretty good Yeah

25:05

no, I received it and I Read

25:07

it fast because I think I

25:10

saw early on the problem

25:13

Where like it was materialist in like in that

25:15

way and like it was that egotist and I

25:17

was like, okay This is there's something off here

25:19

in my way. What do you mean? Well, it

25:21

was like I think your

25:24

anxieties your worries and

25:26

your Barometer

25:29

for success was materialist

25:31

in the sense that it was

25:33

like I Was

25:36

working as a dishwasher Can you believe

25:38

that you know like I

25:41

was very low on the totem pole

25:43

and then afterwards like Will Smith like

25:45

This is the most amazing thing that has ever

25:48

happened and now like we were making money and

25:50

then like that kind of thing and especially Which

25:53

is true, but I think that like you were

25:55

also like that as well And I don't think that

25:57

there's anything wrong with that. I think it

25:59

was more that you had matured. And

26:02

I think to provide a feedback to

26:04

your past self that was

26:06

like that is different from still

26:09

writing in that perspective. And

26:12

then I was like, okay, I'm

26:14

like, okay, wow. I cannot, because I saw

26:16

that it was very, I

26:19

always use this word in French, but like, coinset, like

26:21

it was very bottled up in

26:23

you. That's what I felt at

26:25

the same time. So I was like, okay, this

26:28

is going, and by the end, I think you

26:30

found a better voice of expressing

26:32

yourself, and I was enjoying it more, but

26:36

there were still like, how shall I

26:38

say this? Like pitfalls. And I was

26:40

like, okay, this is not working, and I just want

26:42

it to be very, very, very, very critical. But at

26:44

the same time, to get like

26:47

fucking podcast-y, I was

26:49

watching, this was like a year ago maybe? Like I

26:51

was watching a Van Neistat, shout

26:54

out to Van Neistat, my favorite Neistat.

26:57

It's like he talks to Tom Sacks, the

26:59

artist, about the wall that

27:02

writers, everyone faces in their

27:04

project. And you think that the

27:06

wall is at the beginning of

27:08

the process. You think like you're gonna

27:11

overcome the wall, it's the first draft,

27:13

and afterwards, you're just gonna jump

27:16

and then maybe you'll like spread

27:18

your wings, and it's all smooth sailing to

27:20

the finish line after that. But the wall

27:22

is actually somewhere in the middle,

27:24

if not towards the end of it. And

27:27

people get very discouraged at that time.

27:29

But the point is to actually prepare

27:32

for that wall, which is

27:34

easier said than done, which

27:36

is something that you need to, I think, live

27:39

for yourself. But you prepare

27:42

for that wall, and you enjoy climbing

27:44

that wall by the end. And then

27:46

it's the smooth sailing part, depending.

27:50

But yeah, so as

27:52

I said, I love that delusion, and I saw that,

27:54

I was like, fuck, this is how I was back

27:56

in the day, and this is how I am still

27:58

back in the day. So I knew that. I

28:00

needed to say something drastic. Anyway,

28:03

so I sent it, toned

28:06

down, but with love, and then

28:08

I received your voicemail, and it was

28:10

like a two minute, 30 second voicemail.

28:13

And I was at Sundrins, and

28:15

you were like, hey dude. And

28:18

I knew it, I knew it. Oh

28:22

yeah, yeah, yeah, like I was from like

28:24

10 seconds, I was just like, I was

28:26

feeling it, my body was just like picking

28:28

up on the signals. I was

28:30

like, he's gonna fucking ask me to edit this, or

28:32

he's gonna fucking ask me to ghost write it or

28:35

something. And I was like, oh god,

28:37

oh god, oh god. And then you said it, I was like, oh.

28:40

Like, still going. And

28:42

then, it's so funny, because I watched the first podcast

28:44

that you made, and then you were like. Wait, which

28:46

podcast? Like the first one where you. Wait, Mark Manson?

28:48

No, no, your first one. Oh, the solo one, yeah,

28:50

yeah. Yeah, the solo one, where you're like, didn't

28:52

call me, or like he left a voicemail, and

28:54

he's like, dude, fuck yes, which

28:57

is true. But there was a lot, like

28:59

15 minute, like, oh

29:01

god, beforehand, it was just like, oh

29:03

my god, this is the best thing. I knew

29:05

it would be very fun, but at the same time,

29:08

as always, I have my own stuff going on,

29:10

and I'm trying to figure my life into a

29:12

routine, which is very difficult,

29:15

which is my discomfort, not

29:17

zone of comfort at all. And

29:19

very easy with being all over the place.

29:22

And so I asked Sandra, and I asked a few friends, and

29:24

then I was like, this is good. I'm

29:27

sure like this will bring in some money. But

29:29

at the same time, I would love to work with

29:32

you again, and I think that was the prime thing.

29:34

But also, selfishly, I was like, this could be good

29:37

to, for not a

29:39

career in the terms of like, oh yeah,

29:41

like here's a book, more in

29:43

the sense that when you look at someone

29:45

else's work, you can be so much more critical than you

29:47

look at yours. And I think

29:49

that's what I also wanted

29:51

to do. So even if it wasn't

29:54

my field, I wanted to take

29:56

a crack at it. And I

29:59

was also scared. I was scared because I did not

30:01

know if I had the skills

30:04

to do it. I think when we started

30:06

working on it, I got

30:08

the confidence, but I think it was also

30:10

a bit as if I was play acting.

30:13

I was like, no, we can't do this.

30:15

You're right. I am right. It's

30:17

true, but that's how it's... Just feigning confidence. Oh,

30:19

for sure, but I think that's how you

30:22

always... Like a coach. Oh, yeah,

30:24

for sure. Or like a director or

30:26

whatever. Even if you don't know, it's

30:28

kind of the confidence you give to the other

30:30

person as well. Yeah. And

30:33

I felt it. Yeah. Yeah, I

30:35

didn't sense much doubt in you in the beginning. I

30:38

mean, we... After

30:40

this conversation, it took like three days for me

30:42

to get out here to Montreal. It was

30:45

August of last year. Yeah, and of

30:47

August. And the main

30:49

thing, I mean, you and Sundryne had been dating for like five

30:51

or six months by this point, so it was still a new

30:53

relationship. And I

30:56

was coming in with the expectation that we were just going

30:58

to work off my draft, the one that

31:01

you'd criticized. So I was like, oh, even in the

31:03

plane, like I filmed a little selfie video on the

31:05

plane on my way to Montreal, and I was like,

31:07

I'm so excited to work on this draft with Darren.

31:09

I feel like we're really close. I literally

31:12

was like, I feel like we're almost at the finish line. He's

31:14

going to take me to the finish line. And

31:16

then I get here, and one

31:18

of the first things you tell me is we're

31:20

going to start over. But we

31:23

went off your draft too. We went

31:25

very much off the foundation and a lot of stuff

31:27

we took from it. But

31:29

the idea of having to start

31:31

from scratch, not even with the

31:33

writing, with the foundation. You

31:36

made us go through a full breakdown

31:38

of the outline for like, I was going to be here for

31:40

a month. I thought by the end of the

31:42

month, I'd be done and have a book. And

31:45

you're like, the first five days, I

31:47

think we spent on the outline, by

31:50

the fourth day, I mean, I'm going to

31:52

leave and have a page of this book done. And

31:55

I was like, yeah. You're like, so? But

31:58

that was so funny. That was so I

32:01

every night I came back like you were also

32:03

like dude We're gonna do in Copenhagen actually I'm

32:05

gonna come to Montreal and Sunday was like after

32:08

a while she got numb Which

32:12

is the same thing with the Shanghai

32:14

thing yeah for me it's Easier

32:17

honestly so much easier But

32:20

first other people who are organized I

32:22

can sense they're this not disappointment, but

32:24

just the whiplash but

32:28

every night Because that's

32:30

I'm just doing this as a comparison to

32:32

I was so much more Okay with that

32:34

every night on the first few days. I

32:36

would go come back, and I just

32:38

tell Sun Zhen That

32:41

thinks he's gonna fucking finish this fucking a

32:43

month Sometimes

32:47

I'd be like really thinks he's gonna

32:54

Put a humorous lens on some of my

32:56

anxieties too, but it's true, and

32:58

I think I had the power

33:01

almost to Be like

33:03

you're not gonna like I could I

33:05

could be the stopgap. You know you

33:07

can't you can't you can't you can't and I

33:10

remember we were in We

33:14

were in the Mordecai rickler library Dude

33:18

Three days for the outline. That's great like

33:20

that means that we can finish it by

33:22

like this month Doing

33:25

this I don't know I

33:27

feel like people understand my reactions, but I

33:29

really don't think people do

33:31

sometimes in the sense that I think they just

33:35

Maybe because I'm smirking a lot Yeah,

33:38

I think also I mean I was diluting myself because

33:40

yeah if I were to think that this was gonna

33:42

take another six months I would have never done it.

33:44

Yeah, I had to convince myself. It could be done

33:47

in a month true Otherwise it wouldn't I wouldn't even

33:49

come out to Montreal. I would have been like there's

33:51

just no chance yeah, so You

33:54

know thinking that it was gonna be a

33:56

little shorter is actually maybe beneficial. Yeah, otherwise.

33:58

I would have been impossible Yeah.

34:02

But you were, I mean, literally, I say

34:04

this in the book as well as, you know,

34:06

you became not only a co-writer but a therapist,

34:08

a coach, like all these different things. And

34:13

here you go again. But

34:16

sure, you were a therapist for me too. Yeah,

34:19

I mean, I think especially later down the line,

34:21

when you started to feel the exhaustion too, we

34:23

started to, I started to show up for you

34:25

as well a little bit. And I think the

34:30

cool, one of the cool things I realized early

34:32

on in coming out here and working with you

34:34

was that, one,

34:38

I hadn't been back to Montreal and

34:40

since we left in 2016. And

34:44

two, you had this perspective of yes

34:47

theory, having been removed from it

34:49

for a long time and all these different memories that

34:51

I had forgotten. So I realized

34:54

pretty quickly, I was like, even if it

34:56

was the best editor in the world, best

34:59

co-writer, best whatever, it would

35:01

not have been as good because they didn't

35:03

live it. They didn't get

35:05

it. Like you had to be there to understand it. And

35:10

so it felt like this is an incredible

35:12

privilege because not only did you have the

35:14

experience of yes theory, but you

35:16

are like the most well-read person by far

35:19

that I've ever met but also the

35:21

most intense critic. So it

35:23

was this perfect combination of understanding

35:26

what I was trying to say, but also

35:28

even though you didn't

35:30

have necessarily editing experience, you'd worked on a

35:33

ton of writing projects and

35:35

had, like I said, just all this

35:37

experience of reading. So I

35:40

quickly realized you were the right guy. However,

35:43

there was still a

35:45

little bit of doubt about it because I was like,

35:47

this is both Darren and I's first time writing a

35:49

book. How the fuck do we

35:51

know if this is any good? And

35:54

the one barometer for success was

35:56

whether Tom, our mentor, who is

35:58

Mark in the book, book which is still hilarious.

36:01

Yeah I know you changed it again. Yeah yeah I changed

36:03

it to Mark. I think you changed

36:05

it. No no it's Mark. I know but before it was

36:07

something else. I think you changed it. Yeah yeah I changed

36:09

it. One last time after everything else. But

36:13

Tom was the person that

36:15

depending on what he said we were going to

36:18

continue so we were like okay let's work for

36:20

about a week and a half and send him

36:22

the first two to three chapters and see what

36:24

he thinks. Yeah. And even this

36:26

is the first time I saw you. Oh

36:28

yeah. Be like. Oh yeah

36:31

yeah. It felt like the first time I

36:33

had somebody really in it with me. Yeah.

36:35

That could feel like oh shit what's the

36:37

actual feedback going to be from people we

36:39

really respect. Yeah. And so we I sent

36:41

it off to Tom. I think

36:43

we waited it was on a Friday so we waited a whole weekend

36:46

and you kept texting me like have

36:48

Tom answered, Tom answered, Tom answered. And

36:50

then finally on Tuesday after like four

36:53

days he frickin responded and he was

36:55

like yes. Yeah. This is great. Keep

36:57

going. And I remember texting

36:59

you and you have this reaction every time

37:02

that something like this

37:04

happens especially over text. You

37:06

just go. Oh yeah exhalation

37:08

point exhalation point exhalation point. Yeah. It

37:10

was like oh it was

37:13

one of those moments for my reaction is

37:15

just collapsing. Yeah. I was like it

37:17

was just more like okay we're in the right direction now.

37:19

Yeah. Like I found a way to to get

37:22

there. Yeah. And that I think

37:24

gave us the confidence to really keep going. Which

37:27

is something I really respect in Tom. Like

37:30

even when he first watched the Snapchat

37:32

videos we were expecting him to be

37:35

like Sebastian or who is like another

37:37

person that Snapchat. Like very positive. Exactly.

37:39

You guys are the best. And he's

37:41

like that's good. That's

37:44

but that's good. Yeah. I love that. You have

37:46

to live for that because that's a support. I

37:48

think people don't realize that it's a support when

37:50

people are like this is good but it can

37:52

be better because that means that

37:54

they believe in you. Like if someone just says

37:56

it's pretty good you have to stop here. Yeah.

38:00

I'm like, is this my limit? So

38:03

anyway, yeah, I remember that too. Well

38:06

yeah, yeah. Anyway, I

38:09

still don't know. I still don't know how

38:11

it is. I think it is good. I

38:14

don't know if it's, but

38:16

it's also such a specific book. So

38:18

that's why it's difficult to

38:20

gauge sometimes. But

38:24

yeah, I enjoy it. Yeah, that's

38:27

the most important thing. I

38:29

was even doing the Audible for it. Des

38:31

was actually in the studio with me when I

38:33

was recording it. I was like, damn,

38:36

this is fucking good. I was really

38:38

excited. I was like, nah.

38:42

Just clapping down. Tell me the truth.

38:44

Yeah, you can be honest. Yeah, but

38:46

genuinely. I mean, there's obviously some parts that

38:49

were hard to write, and you know that as

38:51

a first time book, you know, you get stuck. Oh

38:53

yeah. And I think, I

38:56

mean, for me, I

39:01

came into it, it

39:04

was very similar to the Iron Man where I was like,

39:06

I just want to finish this. I

39:08

don't care if it's that good. And

39:11

for the Iron Man, Aaron

39:13

came in and was like, no, we're gonna do like

39:15

a good race. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna be in

39:18

the top quarter of the race. You're not gonna be

39:20

number one in the race, but it's

39:22

gonna be epic. And I fully

39:27

changed my perspective on dreams

39:29

and goals and stuff. And yet

39:32

at the same time, you know, with the book, I went back

39:34

to my old habit of being like, I just want to finish

39:36

it. And you coming in, be

39:38

like, fuck a mediocre book. We're

39:40

gonna write at least a good book. Like it's

39:42

gonna be something that people will enjoy reading. Especially

39:45

if they're familiar with our story a little

39:47

bit. And so I think

39:49

that to me is the

39:52

most surprising part of it. It's

39:55

like, holy shit, we actually wrote a good book.

39:57

Yeah, yeah. Like that's crazy to me. Yeah. And

40:00

I don't think

40:02

it's a great book. I don't think it's like

40:04

the best book ever. But

40:07

for first book and for the story we told, I'm

40:09

so proud of it. Me too. And

40:11

I think it's a good balance. I

40:13

think I would have written completely something else.

40:15

You would have written completely something else. But

40:18

I think it's a good balanced look that

40:20

is neither on one extreme or

40:22

the other. And

40:25

that's why I think maybe

40:27

that stops it from being something

40:30

outrageous and that's why it's amazing. But

40:32

that's why some people would have hated

40:34

it at the same time. But

40:36

this is a solid testimony to

40:38

what happened. And

40:41

I think that's something to be proud of as opposed to

40:44

writing the most amazing book in the world,

40:46

especially in this. But I

40:48

think, I just want to say, like when I said you're

40:50

one of my therapists, yes in the book, but in other

40:52

areas as well where I

40:54

think I'm a perfectionist and

40:57

I think you're a results oriented person. I think

40:59

we both have our 20%, 30% differences

41:01

in that. Like

41:05

I'm also a results oriented person but not as much as

41:07

I'm a perfectionist, etc. And

41:09

I think you were my

41:11

therapist through that too. You

41:14

were like, it's okay if this is

41:16

good. And also do your own

41:18

project. Take some time to do that too. And

41:21

I remember you were telling me, use

41:23

the money you have to make this

41:26

short film that I was doing at the same

41:28

time or pay your friend to be an editor

41:31

because otherwise I was very afraid of

41:33

going out into the world and

41:35

doing a lot of the things

41:38

that stopped me even

41:40

from accomplishing stuff. And

41:42

so I think you were my therapist. Like

41:45

this book was also my therapy in

41:47

other aspects as well. In the way

41:49

of having confidence in yourself. But

41:53

also doing stuff. The

41:55

perfect is the enemy of good idea.

41:58

And you were very supportive. than that. You

42:01

were like, no, you go out and do it

42:03

not because it would be the most amazing thing

42:05

but you pushed me to

42:09

engage more with the world even if it

42:11

meant that I would lose

42:14

some things in the process whether

42:16

it was time, money, energy and

42:18

so on which have been I

42:20

haven't yet seen the rewards but in a

42:22

very personal way it has been very satisfactory.

42:27

So thank you very

42:29

much honestly. Thanks for

42:31

saying that. I

42:33

receive it. We

42:36

work in Montreal, we work in Copenhagen

42:39

afterwards. We spent

42:41

a month together in Copenhagen where I'd say

42:43

that was probably out of

42:46

the whole time probably the most brutal, like the

42:48

most difficult part was like once we got into

42:50

the book like you were saying the wall. It's

42:53

like not just the beginning it's once

42:55

you're halfway three-fourths of the

42:57

way and you're like oh my god like this

42:59

feels like

43:01

a gigantic mess.

43:04

Yeah. And you know we were in this new

43:06

city and we explored it. We got to

43:08

see like museums and bike around and stuff but there

43:10

was this frustration I think

43:12

we both experienced where we wanted to be

43:14

able to really enjoy traveling

43:17

and enjoy being in a new place together

43:19

and we had to sit down for like

43:22

six to eight hours a day and work on this. But

43:27

we did and I'm so proud of that you know I'm so proud

43:29

that we stuck to it and I

43:31

think it made a huge difference

43:33

but afterwards after Copenhagen we

43:36

go back you go back to Montreal

43:38

I go to LA and we travel

43:41

around you go to Turkey I go to Paris and we

43:43

start working room out and by February

43:45

it's complete.

43:48

Yeah. By February of this year

43:50

it's done and

43:53

we were

43:55

together on the call when it happens. I

43:57

remember filming you being like it's officially it's

44:00

Dude, it's like actually over. Yeah. Like

44:02

we actually did this. Yeah. Yeah,

44:04

I mean, I've described what that moment, I think,

44:06

was like for me on my end. I think

44:08

I've talked about it on the podcast. Literally, after

44:10

a call, I walked outside onto my porch, up

44:14

in the mountains of Topanga. And I just

44:17

sat down and looked out. And I was like, I

44:21

just can't believe it. I just can't believe it.

44:23

I can't believe I wrote it. You

44:25

know? And I felt

44:28

this deep sense of gratitude for you. I

44:30

was like, holy shit. I'm

44:32

so proud of myself for asking for support, for

44:35

reaching out for help and not thinking

44:37

I have to do this alone. So

44:41

that was the moment for me, for you. I mean,

44:44

you were in the middle of your project, of your

44:46

film and everything. Yeah. Did

44:48

you feel any kind of sense? Do you feel like

44:50

until the book is out, you won't fully experience it?

44:52

Or did you feel any kind of sense of completion?

44:54

I'm less involved with it than you, I think. I

44:56

think for me, it was bittersweet, because

44:59

it was the end of

45:01

our almost daily talks and

45:03

stuff. But at the same time,

45:05

I was coming to a place where I really needed

45:07

to work on other stuff. And at the same time,

45:09

there was the earthquake in Turkey. And I remember, I

45:12

think it was probably

45:14

nighttime in Turkey, like 7

45:16

o'clock and so on. And we

45:19

left the call. And I was just like, whew.

45:21

And I have a problem with

45:23

celebrating, even if it's just for myself. I

45:25

remember, I don't

45:29

know, when I finished my first novel when

45:31

I was 21, even the first draft. I

45:35

talked to my dad. And I was like, OK,

45:38

that's cool. What am I, a friend

45:40

was calling me. Now I'm going to go. I

45:42

cannot celebrate. I have

45:45

a problem with celebrating. I am so

45:47

much more excited during the process of

45:49

it. So it wasn't, I

45:51

seen the book. Where

45:54

does that come from? But

45:57

seeing the book, honestly, it's amazing.

46:00

That's a feeling that I

46:03

did not expect because I believe

46:06

in the physical form. And

46:10

it's great. It's crazy. I still

46:13

cannot believe it sometimes. Right? Yeah.

46:17

You're holding it and we're talking about all this? It

46:19

feels crazy. Yeah. And honestly,

46:21

it looks so

46:23

good. And as someone who never

46:25

cared about appearances for a very, very

46:27

long time, you realize

46:32

how Des came in and changed it all and

46:34

then you fought for stuff, you

46:36

realize why this matters too. Because

46:38

it's like this is the package that

46:40

gives you everything inside. Put

46:43

something together. Yeah. And I

46:45

think I like it. I don't know. I think it will

46:47

be interesting in the Q&A, but

46:50

it's not me. In the sense that

46:53

neither I don't

46:56

like celebrating regardless.

47:00

Even when I finished the short film, we were

47:03

at a wrap party and I was just like,

47:05

all right, cool. Everybody get drunk. And I was

47:07

like, cool. But also this is

47:09

not me. I'm a part

47:12

of it and I'm very proud and happy to be

47:14

a part of it. But I'm not, this

47:16

is not my crowd. This is, of

47:19

course, it's the fans and the people

47:21

who do it, but it's

47:23

not me. So I feel a personal

47:27

sense of accomplishment, but that

47:29

expresses itself as relief as

47:32

opposed to, how shall I say

47:34

this, going out to the world and being

47:36

like, yes. Do

47:39

you feel like that's something you want to experience with

47:41

your own project? I guess so. But I did not

47:43

even get to see that with

47:45

the short film when that ended. I think

47:48

it was, but even with

47:51

another short film I made that I showed it to

47:53

like 30 people in a festival, that

47:57

was very gratifying because I think people got what

47:59

I was thinking. trying to say and it was a

48:01

personal project etc. And

48:03

I think I hold myself

48:05

back because I understand how almost

48:08

destructive that urge can be,

48:11

that ego boost. You can

48:13

be like, oh for sure I did

48:15

this and who the fuck are you, I'm sorry. That's

48:18

very easy to get into. And

48:22

so I think I shut down and

48:24

I think what I do in those times is,

48:26

oh okay, back to work. Even

48:29

if it's just reading, even if it's just

48:31

taking a cozy time, even if it's playing

48:33

a video game. But for me that's

48:35

still work in the sense that you still get to

48:38

do something. I'm

48:40

less a

48:42

person who celebrates or sits

48:45

down and then just looks at nothing for a while.

48:48

Well I'm going to challenge that a little

48:51

bit in the next month because you're going

48:53

to come out to LA for the launch

48:55

party and we're going to celebrate. I mean

48:57

this podcast is actually releasing post. Yeah,

49:00

post launch. Because I think

49:03

it's very very cool for people to see,

49:05

you know, hold this while listening

49:07

to this. I think it will

49:10

be epic. So the book's already out but

49:13

let's talk in the future,

49:15

we're going to freaking celebrate. But I

49:17

think I like that because it

49:20

was so weird when I was in Los

49:22

Angeles in 2019. I

49:25

was there with some group of friends, this was

49:27

Ammar's birthday where people skydived and everything. And

49:34

some of my friends from Turkey were there and

49:36

I was just hanging out with them and you

49:38

guys were having a party and dancing just as

49:40

in Yes House. And we were just

49:42

like, okay, we're not that kind of people,

49:44

you know, we're not like, woo.

49:47

And then I think you dragged me in

49:49

and then someone carried me on their

49:51

shoulders and someone took off my shirts and

49:53

I was doing this to the crowd and

49:56

then the song ended and then I

49:58

went back and I sat next to my friends. What

50:00

the hell was that? I don't know,

50:02

we get along. But

50:05

I think I can

50:07

celebrate, but that's not

50:09

my... And I love celebrating, especially with

50:12

you guys and so on. I

50:14

do love that sentiment. So

50:17

the crowd and the environment matters a lot. But

50:21

yeah, I think it is something of a

50:23

discomfort, to be perfectly honest. I

50:25

mean, I even say that, you

50:28

know, at the launch party, if I'm

50:31

speaking in the past, I'm sure it has been great.

50:33

Yeah, yeah. I guess

50:35

if I'm speaking in the future. The

50:39

sentiment, what I think I'm actually

50:41

going to feel though, when that

50:43

day arrives, and even until the end of the year,

50:45

is just this

50:47

enormous sense of relief. Just

50:50

this letting go of

50:52

the restriction that this has caused, and

50:54

just the pressure and

50:56

the lack of

50:58

sleep and the overworking and all of it. I

51:02

think ultimately, I literally

51:04

just want to wake up in my bed and

51:07

not have a thing to

51:09

think about. Not have this project to think

51:11

about. To

51:14

me, that is actually the greatest gift, is

51:16

knowing I did my best, knowing

51:18

we gave it our all, and

51:21

that people are enjoying it, and then being

51:23

able to let it go. So I'm

51:25

super, yeah, I think that's the thing I'm so

51:27

excited about. And also, I mean, what's

51:29

really cool is, you know, on Friday,

51:32

they're going to be traveling

51:34

together. Are we going on Friday? I don't think

51:36

so. We're not going on Friday? That's why I

51:38

told you, we're going to stay here forever now.

51:41

Omar is getting his visa this

51:45

next week or something. Cool. I

51:47

have no idea. Fuck it. Yeah.

51:50

Well, anyways, maybe we don't have to go through

51:52

that, but the past week in Montreal. Yeah. How

51:55

has it been for you having

51:58

all this here? It's... It's

52:00

funny because I think

52:03

I told this to so many people when we

52:05

first did the Project 30 Caribbean. I

52:08

was like, this is a good group to travel because

52:10

I don't want to kill them by the end. And

52:13

this is the, again, barometer. It's

52:17

so important because we

52:19

have our common points but we have our huge

52:21

differences and the idea is to manage that. You

52:24

guys gave me so much time to walk around, do my

52:26

own thing when we traveled, which I loved. And at the

52:28

same time, I was there when we needed. But

52:32

it was interesting because I think, one,

52:35

seeing you, again, all together, that

52:37

was, it's giddying. There's

52:39

nothing else to say. That was

52:42

amazing. Talking to Thomas, we went to have coffee,

52:44

that was a very nice

52:46

moment because before I think, either

52:49

we didn't get to have those or I think when

52:51

we had it in 2019, he was very preoccupied. I

52:54

think he's been much calmer too so that was really

52:56

nice. I don't

52:58

think that we got to do a lot of

53:00

sightseeing, unfortunately. In Montreal? Yeah, unfortunately. We

53:02

only went to McGill. That was fun. I

53:05

think it's interesting

53:08

because, how shall I say

53:10

this? There

53:13

are, it's very positive

53:15

and negative because I think the more

53:17

that I've seen you, not you, but

53:20

everyone else, be involved

53:22

with the YouTube world. I don't

53:24

think we were like that like six, seven years ago.

53:27

We weren't that tied to our phones and I think

53:29

we are even more tied to our phones. And

53:32

I think that has become difficult

53:35

to see in the sense that, yeah,

53:38

like I am hanging out with my

53:40

best friends, but at the same

53:43

time, 24-7, their minds are somewhere else,

53:46

even if they don't want to. And

53:50

so that gave me the idea of, oh

53:52

yeah, this is why I left, because

53:55

that's stop and start, like hours at

53:57

the Airbnb where there was a lot

53:59

of people. There was nothing going on and

54:01

then someone sends an email which I like

54:03

because then I could carve out my own

54:05

space to do something. But

54:08

at the same time, that life to see that, I was

54:10

like, oh my god, this was what it was like. And

54:13

it was because it was so far away and because

54:15

I was younger back then, I couldn't put my finger

54:17

on it. And I could now. And

54:20

I think it's bittersweet so it's like, I love

54:22

seeing my friends but I also want to see

54:24

my friends. And I can't get to

54:26

see my friends because we are shooting a video right now

54:28

and so on. And I think it

54:31

is, I think traveling will

54:33

be very different. And

54:36

also because we'll be in China, we won't be in

54:38

a place that will be so easy to be connected

54:40

to the rest of the world. But

54:42

it was, I don't know, it's I.

54:47

And because I'm also distant from it,

54:49

like I'm not in the daily

54:52

anxieties or like, oh, like someone's

54:54

feeling down. What will we do

54:56

for the next 24 hours about

54:58

that? And so I'm like, I'm

55:00

not in that either. So

55:03

it's amazing, especially

55:06

because on Thursday night when we left

55:08

Lola Rosa, that which was great, like

55:10

that was like, it's it's coming back

55:12

to me, as Celine Dion says. Only

55:17

she says that. All coming back

55:19

to me now with such intensity and

55:21

in such happiness too, because

55:23

I always felt that I feel like Montreal emanates

55:25

that. But with you guys, I felt

55:27

that and I once did karaoke when at

55:29

a bar where there was no one. And

55:32

I was so happy. But

55:34

at the same time, if that's one extreme,

55:36

I could see the other one at

55:38

the same time. So

55:41

it's it's not

55:43

bad at all, but it's really

55:45

good. And at the same time, it's a bit

55:48

like, oh, like we

55:50

are very tied to

55:52

this. Which

55:54

is, I think, something that you have struggled with

55:56

a lot as well, like Matt

55:58

from Yes Theory all day. the troubles like

56:00

sleeping for six hours for so many days

56:03

like you mentioned in the book in Los

56:05

Angeles, you would sleep for six

56:07

hours and you would be going at it for 18

56:10

hours and then sleep for six hours which is something

56:12

that that's not going to hold. And

56:16

so it's been great but it's also a bit, I

56:19

don't know, a bit bittersweet because it's something

56:21

that I'm not a part of anymore. Thanks

56:25

for sharing. Yeah. I

56:28

can empathize with a lot of that. I

56:30

had a lot of the same feelings. Yeah,

56:33

because I mean I haven't been in a video, you know, like

56:37

that for a long time. You

56:43

know, and I felt it too. I think, I

56:45

mean even in this book, you know, we talk

56:47

about like the best moments are the ones where

56:49

the camera's off. Yeah. And we're

56:51

just hanging out as friends. Because

56:55

when they are on, even in, you know,

56:57

this is a little different but it

57:00

still is a job. Yeah. Oh

57:02

yeah. And if your friendship is tied to this

57:05

job, it can't fully be a friendship. You

57:08

know, it's a partnership. It's a business partnership.

57:10

And so I, you know,

57:14

seeing the whole team being with the whole team,

57:17

like you said in the Airbnb, I felt

57:20

that too. I was like, what are we doing? Yeah. Like

57:22

why would you hang out? Let's get moving. Yeah. Come

57:26

on. We're in Montreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like

57:28

we haven't been back in forever. Yeah. We've spent

57:30

like 48 hours in this freaking, in this Airbnb.

57:34

Yeah. And

57:37

I think, you know, as same thing, like

57:39

there's this like feeling of, wow, I love

57:41

these guys and I love what

57:43

Yes Theory stands for and all of it. However,

57:46

I also recognize why I'm leaving.

57:49

Yeah. I recognize that this

57:51

lifestyle is just not for

57:53

me. Yeah. It's not what I

57:56

want. And in a way, I mean,

57:58

we say this at the end of the book as well. like leaving

58:04

and living our own lives and not having

58:06

to film it is

58:08

the embodiment of yes theory. I think

58:10

like that alignment with your own truth,

58:13

following your own bliss, all

58:16

the taglines that we have is

58:20

what you did first by leaving in 2017. And now I

58:22

feel like

58:26

this difficult process of exiting

58:28

has been for me and the next phase

58:30

of going into the complete unknown is that

58:32

as well. Like, holy shit, I have no

58:34

idea what's going to happen but I kind

58:36

of love it. I'm just

58:38

like, well, it feels like I'm

58:40

graduating. I'm so stoked.

58:43

Yeah, of course. I

58:45

think it's

58:47

not only, it's a job but

58:49

because it's YouTube, because it's in the internet,

58:51

you're connected to the entire world with this

58:54

because you also have a huge platform too.

58:57

So it's very difficult to get out of that

58:59

head, get it out of your

59:01

head even, which I

59:03

empathize with or rather I understand but

59:06

I cannot empathize, so to speak, if

59:08

that makes sense. And

59:11

I think I saw

59:14

because I think all three of you either

59:19

caught the bug earlier on or were

59:21

already like that in the yes theory

59:23

mode of life and I was not

59:25

at all in certain

59:27

ways but not always. I

59:30

think for me it was always more of

59:32

a smaller thing in the sense

59:34

that seeking discomfort does not have

59:36

to be jumping out of

59:38

a helicopter every day. And I think when

59:41

I was answering some of the mails in

59:43

2016, 2017, a lot of people

59:46

were asking how do I live your life? How

59:49

do I have a house in Venice and do

59:51

this? And I'd be like, that's not it. And

59:54

I guess some people are like, Project 30

59:56

alone is so difficult. I know, obviously, but

59:58

you don't have to do it. it either

1:00:00

alone or you don't have to do a project

1:00:03

30. It's all about the small, small things that

1:00:05

just need to push you over the edge and

1:00:07

that's all. And for me, I

1:00:10

got it. I got it in like day

1:00:12

15 when I think it was the bridge

1:00:14

jumping. When we realized the bridge we were

1:00:16

supposed to jump was really high

1:00:19

but then Thomas was

1:00:21

like, we're going to jump out of like even if

1:00:23

it's a smaller bridge and then he jumped into the

1:00:25

little Sheen Canal and I was like, wow, this is

1:00:27

a high. Or the break dancing didn't work and sorry,

1:00:29

the skating didn't work so we did break dancing with

1:00:32

someone and I was like, you'd make the best out

1:00:34

of the day. This is awesome. And I was

1:00:37

able to leave with the lessons

1:00:40

early on. But

1:00:44

it's lovely. I think that's

1:00:47

what graduating is. You carry that

1:00:49

information or that knowledge to

1:00:51

whatever comes next even if like you

1:00:53

don't know what's going to happen but

1:00:55

you know how you might respond to

1:00:57

those things because you're better equipped now.

1:00:59

And I think that's

1:01:02

the excitement. It's not like, I don't know

1:01:04

what will happen. Yes, I don't

1:01:06

know what will happen but I also – I trust

1:01:08

myself. Exactly. And that's a

1:01:10

good feeling. Yeah. And

1:01:14

now, to wrap this

1:01:16

up, any last words there? No,

1:01:19

it's honestly, I'm a very harsh

1:01:23

critic. It's a

1:01:25

good book.

1:01:27

It's an enjoyable book. It's

1:01:30

quite an enjoyable book. Perfect

1:01:32

way to end it. Love you, Ditto. Love

1:01:34

you too, man.