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week on Intuit, Vultures Pop

1:01

Culture Podcast.

1:09

Hello, and welcome to

1:11

another episode of The Weeds. I'm

1:14

Jonquelyn Hill. This past

1:16

weekend, I had my very first

1:18

live taping of The Weeds at the Crosscut Ideas

1:20

Festival in Seattle. And because

1:23

all of y'all couldn't come with us, we're

1:25

bringing Seattle to you. I

1:28

spoke with Dani Eskine, their co-executive

1:31

director of national programs at

1:33

the Gender Justice League. We talked

1:35

about the recent increase in anti-LGBTQ

1:38

legislation all

1:39

over the country and the history

1:41

of gender-affirming care. Plus,

1:44

we took some questions from the audience. Enjoy

1:46

the show.

1:53

Hello, everyone, and welcome to

1:55

The Weeds live from the Crosscut Ideas

1:58

Festival. All

2:01

right. I think you guys can do a little better

2:03

than that. Let's make some noise in here. Yeah.

2:08

That's the energy that I love. My

2:10

name is Jonclyn Hill and I host

2:13

the Weeds, Vox's Policy and Politics

2:15

Podcast. This

2:17

is my first ever live

2:19

show in the host seat. So thank

2:21

you all so much for coming and doing this with

2:24

us today.

2:25

One of the things that I love about policy

2:27

is that, yes, we go down

2:30

these rabbit holes and we get wonky

2:32

and we get nerdy. But at

2:34

the end of the day, policy

2:36

really is personal. It's

2:39

the reason that our schools are

2:41

funded and it's the reason that our

2:43

roads are paved. As we'll

2:46

get to later, it determines

2:48

the kinds of healthcare we can access. Today,

2:51

we're going to talk about the recent wave of

2:53

anti-trans legislation we've seen in states

2:56

all across

2:56

the country. At the time of

2:58

this recording, the ACLU

3:00

is tracking 474 bills

3:03

and the majority of them target transgender

3:06

rights.

3:06

Everything from sports teams and bathrooms

3:09

to restricting access to gender-affirming care

3:11

for youth. While a lot of these

3:13

proposals are very unlikely to become

3:15

law, they serve as a cultural

3:17

lightning rod and they energize the base

3:20

of the politicians who introduce them.

3:22

But they also stand to do

3:24

real harm to a marginalized community.

3:27

My guest today is Danny Iskine. Danny

3:30

is the founder of the Gender Justice League Seattle

3:32

and used to be policy director of Basic

3:34

Rights Oregon and has done extensive

3:36

policy work with state legislatures

3:39

across the country. Welcome to the weeds,

3:41

Danny. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining

3:43

us. Thank you.

3:44

So

3:47

before we really dive into the policy and the

3:49

bills, I

3:53

want to get into the personal stakes. Do

3:56

you mind sharing your personal story

3:58

with us? Yeah.

3:59

I grew up in Southern Maine in a pretty

4:02

rural community, and I

4:04

knew from a very young age that I identified

4:06

as a woman and that I was trans, and

4:09

I had a really supportive family. My family

4:11

believed in unconditional love and acceptance, and

4:14

even though they might not have understood the ins

4:16

and outs of what it meant to be trans, I

4:19

always felt supported in

4:21

speaking my truth and getting access to care. And

4:24

as I started to go through puberty, I started

4:26

to experience changes in my body that

4:28

were really distressing to me

4:30

and started to need more access

4:32

to care, to find interventions

4:35

to prevent my body from doing things I

4:37

didn't want it to. And so we started going

4:39

to

4:39

see providers in Portland, Maine, which

4:42

is kind of the biggest city in Maine, and then eventually

4:44

Boston Children's Hospital. And

4:47

yeah, about like 15, 16, I started taking

4:49

puberty-blocking medication and then eventually

4:52

estrogen and transitioned

4:54

through high school. So it was a slow process.

4:56

It took many years,

4:57

really like years of therapy, and

5:01

almost half a decade before really

5:03

like getting to adult levels of

5:06

gender-firming care. So

5:09

earlier I spoke about how nearly 500 bills

5:12

have been introduced in legislatures

5:15

across the country. And that

5:18

just feels really extreme. The

5:22

question I keep asking myself

5:24

over and over is why

5:26

this issue and why now?

5:28

I mean, we are so many years

5:30

from Obergefell. You

5:32

know, Pose has had how

5:35

many Emmys? Like, what

5:37

is going on right now? Why? Yeah,

5:40

I think there's a couple different dynamics that are happening.

5:42

Kind of like you point out, we moved

5:45

in a shift from marriage equality

5:47

being a settled matter of legal rights

5:50

to in the period

5:51

just before marriage equality, the

5:53

far right really examining where

5:55

they could continue to attack LGBT people, where

5:58

our weaknesses were as a community. And

6:00

in non-discrimination laws that we were

6:02

trying to pass to prevent people from

6:05

being discriminated against in jobs, in housing,

6:07

in healthcare, and in public life,

6:10

they found that arguing, quote unquote,

6:12

men in women's locker rooms or men

6:15

in women's bathrooms was something

6:17

that gained traction. And that was

6:19

sort of the kernel starting in places like

6:21

Hallamazoo, Michigan,

6:22

with a local non-discrimination ordinance,

6:25

and then they sort of blew that up. And in 2016,

6:27

2017, here in Washington state, and

6:30

in Massachusetts, we had ballot measure attempts

6:33

to borrow trans people from using bathrooms

6:36

and from being included in our state

6:38

non-discrimination laws. And that,

6:41

you know, continued to show traction, and it just has

6:43

continued to amplify to this level

6:45

of finding new issues to

6:48

target and attack trans people, to exclude

6:50

us from public life, to prevent our

6:52

existence, and to really punish us

6:54

for being increasingly visible and

6:56

assertive about our right to access healthcare. So 474

7:00

bills is a lot of bills, and

7:05

all the legislation varies from state

7:07

to state, but

7:09

are there any themes that we're seeing

7:12

emerge? Are there certain

7:16

pieces of legislation that we're seeing kind

7:18

of

7:19

take place throughout the country?

7:21

Yeah, I think that there's a number of different approaches

7:24

that are all seeking to frame

7:27

or target trans people from being in

7:30

public life. So there are bans

7:32

on where we can use the restroom, for

7:34

instance, forcing me to use a men's restroom. I think

7:36

that most people in the audience would agree that's pretty

7:39

absurd on

7:39

its face, but that's where the only

7:41

place in public I would be allowed to use the bathroom in

7:43

some of these states, banning

7:46

trans youth, some of whom haven't even gone through puberty

7:48

from participating in sports

7:51

with people of their same gender identity.

7:53

So for instance, forcing me to

7:56

participate with men or else not

7:58

participate in sports

7:59

at all. those bans

8:01

have promulgated across states.

8:03

There are attempts to bar

8:05

trans people from being talked about in schools,

8:08

from even acknowledging that trans people exist,

8:11

bars

8:11

against people changing

8:13

their names or gender pronouns in school.

8:17

There are lots of laws doing that. And then obviously

8:19

the bans on gender-firming healthcare. I

8:22

think Texas is also another really clear example,

8:25

like attempting to use the child welfare system.

8:27

I was in foster care, something that

8:29

is very close to my heart. And that

8:31

was like very difficult for me and my family,

8:33

but using the child welfare system to attack

8:36

families who support young

8:38

people who are transitioning or

8:40

trying to experiencing distress and trying

8:42

to get care, attack them by removing

8:44

those children from their parents' homes. And

8:47

in this country where child removal

8:49

from Native American communities, from

8:51

other communities of color has been used as a tool

8:53

of oppression, it's very disturbing to see

8:56

that continue to be pushed forward

8:58

in these states like Texas. So

9:00

we have these bills and some

9:03

of them have passed, a lot

9:05

likely won't, but

9:07

what's the state of transgender

9:09

rights in America right now?

9:12

It's difficult to say. There's increasing

9:15

social awareness. Like in some ways,

9:18

these bills

9:19

bring awareness to the fact that trans people

9:21

exist, and that can be positive. When

9:23

I transitioned in the late 90s, early 2000s, there

9:26

were very few trans people in the public eye.

9:29

It was almost impossible to have role models

9:31

or to see what my future could look like or what the

9:33

possibilities were. And so it

9:35

is amazing that trans people have more visibility

9:38

and that feels positive to me, but

9:40

with that visibility, it's like a spotlight. It can

9:42

either highlight you or it can make you a target.

9:45

Like you think

9:45

of a searchlight outside of a prison or something,

9:47

it's like meant to find you in the

9:49

dark and make you a target. And I

9:52

think that it has become something that

9:55

is terrifying for a lot of trans people. Many

9:58

of us want to transition and live our lives.

9:59

safely true to ourselves and free from discrimination,

10:03

and to be targeted in a way is

10:05

incredibly scary. And I think young people

10:08

especially,

10:08

who are at the start

10:10

of their lives and don't have a long history

10:12

of memory, it

10:15

can be, and there are a lot of statistics

10:17

incredibly distressing. So

10:19

I think that we have advanced in some ways in being

10:21

publicly visible, and we're such

10:23

a tiny percent of the population. It's,

10:26

I think often

10:27

framed as like, one side versus

10:29

the other, but we're talking about less than 1% versus 99%. That

10:33

doesn't feel like a fair fight. Yeah,

10:36

I think it's so interesting that you talk about that

10:38

idea of a spotlight.

10:40

I'm a black woman, and I know the ways

10:43

that people talk about representation

10:45

as this cure-all, but it really

10:48

in this instance seems

10:50

like a double-edged sword, I mean,

10:54

how do you think about navigating that? Yeah,

10:57

I think it can't be. I

10:59

think for many of

11:00

us, we have to make a choice, right? It's

11:02

like my whole life and career has been dedicated

11:05

to serving LGBTQ people and

11:07

broadly my community. And I think for

11:09

me, it's knowing that

11:11

my existence might provide hope for

11:14

other young people or possibility. And

11:17

that's why I'm so out invisible, but it

11:19

is scary. I have been targeted

11:21

many times in the past, and I know

11:23

many other trans people, I've survived hate

11:26

crimes that have been prosecuted. I've

11:28

been physically assaulted on the street. And

11:30

I think there is that sort of

11:32

double-edged sword of wanting to create

11:34

possibility and be visible, but also

11:37

knowing that there are very serious consequences

11:40

to being in public.

11:42

So it's very difficult, especially in this moment, and

11:44

we see how

11:45

politicians can use our community

11:48

to stoke fear, to

11:51

advance really irrational ideas that

11:53

are just not reflective of the reality of trans

11:55

people. And I think many other

11:58

marginalized communities have experienced the same.

11:59

thing, distortions and fear

12:02

mongering. So much

12:04

of this also makes me

12:07

think of the current

12:10

state of

12:11

reproductive rights. I mean, so

12:13

much was done so that the moments

12:16

the courts decided something, laws could

12:18

be put in place. Do you think

12:21

that the goal of this legislation is to

12:23

get this before the courts? I mean, how

12:25

do you see that? Will that play

12:28

out? Do you think it will?

12:29

It makes a lot of sense that this is happening now

12:31

because of the Dobbs decision. Our

12:34

legal battles will be based on the

12:36

same 14th Amendment arguments that

12:38

were used to uphold access

12:41

to abortion care.

12:41

And so that's the

12:44

strategy. I think the reality

12:46

is that even if courts strike

12:49

down, and I believe that almost every one of these

12:51

bills

12:51

is unconstitutional, the government

12:53

can't just pass a law to target a marginalized

12:56

population specifically and say, you

12:58

know, there are cisgender young people who take

13:01

puberty blocking medication, for instance, for precocious

13:03

puberty. That's what these medications were

13:05

designed for.

13:06

But transgender young people know you can't

13:08

have them. Our Constitution prevents

13:10

the government from doing that. So I think they will be struck

13:12

down. But the real impact

13:15

on young people and trans people is to cause

13:17

despair and hopelessness in our community, to

13:20

prevent us from transitioning or being a part of public

13:22

life, and to

13:24

essentially eliminate us from

13:27

being present and visible and to punish us for

13:29

our mere existence. And so even

13:31

if these laws are struck down, I think the impact

13:33

is going to be felt for decades for our community.

13:37

OK, so we have looked at the

13:39

legislative landscape. And up next,

13:41

we'll talk about impact.

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right, we're back this is the weeds live

16:18

from the Crosscut Festival in Seattle

16:21

I'm John Gwynn Hill and we're in conversation

16:23

with Danny a skinny

16:25

Danny So much

16:27

of this legislation is centered around

16:30

gender affirming care but

16:33

I think Before we move forward

16:36

we need to talk about

16:38

what that means What does gender

16:41

affirming care look like? Yeah,

16:42

I think it's very distinct to each individual

16:45

Specifically for young people which is what a lot of this

16:47

conversation is It's important to know that for

16:49

the vast majority of trans people Gender

16:52

affirming care is really about a social

16:54

transition So it's things like changing

16:57

your name what you wear having long

16:59

or short hair wearing makeup or not wearing makeup

17:02

It's really up to each person to make a decision and

17:05

there are standards of care that were developed by

17:07

the World Professional Association for Transgender

17:09

Health that have been developed and

17:12

Grown

17:12

over the last 40 years We're on version 8

17:14

of those standards of care and

17:16

that body is made up of like more than 500 physicians

17:19

Psychiatrists

17:20

psychologists from almost 100 countries

17:22

around the world so we're talking about care that

17:24

is very regulated and that

17:27

involves like for instance if you want to gain access

17:29

to Hormones or surgeries

17:31

involves a number of different medical providers

17:34

a primary care provider a therapist pediatrician

17:37

possibly for young people and endocrinologist

17:40

for hormones for young people or puberty blockers

17:42

and When folks get

17:44

to the point if they ever decide to pursue

17:46

surgical interventions a Surgeon

17:49

all of those people have to agree and

17:51

there's very

17:51

few other forms of care medical

17:54

care. I'm a cancer survivor I didn't need five

17:56

doctors to sign off on getting chemotherapy

17:59

or a surgery that that actually caused me

18:01

to lose my voice for almost a year. I

18:03

didn't have to get five doctors to sign off on that. For

18:06

gender-affirming care, there's many, many, many

18:08

medical providers involved in a long

18:11

process, often years, to

18:13

get access to care and the wait list for

18:15

getting surgical care, which

18:18

I think most people think that this is just care

18:20

you can go get at your neighborhood medical

18:22

clinic, it's not, there are very few surgeons. And

18:25

the wait list can be three to five years. Like

18:27

I've been waiting

18:27

for two years to get a gender-affirming surgery.

18:30

I'm 40 now, it's a surgery

18:32

I've wanted since I was 16, and

18:34

just the change in health insurance

18:37

or having to take time off

18:39

of work to recover, all of those things

18:41

are considerations. And this care is actually

18:43

already without these laws, incredibly

18:45

difficult to obtain, even if you have

18:47

a good job, even if you have good insurance.

18:50

And I think that people skip over that, and lawmakers

18:52

certainly do. They make it sound like you just get

18:54

it at your corner store. Yeah, could

18:56

you, I guess, dive even deeper

18:59

into

19:00

what those wait times are like, what that process

19:02

is like?

19:03

Let's just start with insurance. Not everybody

19:05

has medical insurance, certainly not every

19:07

young person does. Most states

19:10

it's not required, and so insurance doesn't cover

19:12

it. So you have to be able to pay

19:14

out of pocket in many states.

19:16

And each insurance uses the WPATH

19:19

standards of care to set the guidelines

19:21

for if they will pay for surgical

19:23

care or not. So you

19:26

have this sort of lengthy process. You have to get a letter

19:28

from a therapist with a master's degree,

19:31

your primary care provider, and a PhD

19:33

psychologist or psychiatrist before

19:36

you can even be approved to get

19:38

an interview to have a consultation

19:40

with a surgeon. Then you have

19:42

to wait for the consultation. For me, that's a

19:45

nine month wait just to talk to the doctor

19:47

about the possibility of surgery. And

19:49

then you have to wait for a surgery date, which may be

19:51

another year or two years or three years.

19:54

If you've changed insurance in that time, you have to go back

19:56

to the beginning and start over. And

19:59

your insurance might not cover.

19:59

without particular surgeons, you might have to go find

20:02

a different surgeon and start over. I think people forget

20:04

that our medical system is already incredibly

20:06

complex. It's already restricted

20:09

in many other ways. And people often

20:11

think about gender-firming care as just something that

20:13

people are really nearly deciding to do. And that's absolutely

20:16

not true, nothing that I have seen,

20:19

and certainly not the reality in many

20:21

of the states that are banning this care. There aren't even surgeons

20:23

who provide it.

20:24

You've mentioned WPATH, which is the World Professional

20:27

Association for Transgender Health,

20:30

and that they have standards of care

20:32

for people.

20:34

What do those guidelines

20:37

look like?

20:38

The standard of care for adults is a little different

20:40

than for young people. So for adults, typically

20:42

it involves

20:44

seeing a therapist before

20:46

gaining access. It can be like one

20:48

to three months of therapy before gaining access to

20:50

hormones. Your primary care provider

20:53

can often provide those just like they do for menopause.

20:56

And then being on hormones for about a year

20:59

before seeking any types

21:00

of gender-affirming surgical care. And

21:03

then before seeing a gender-affirming

21:05

surgeon, you have to see a PhD

21:07

psychologist or a psychiatrist to

21:10

do an evaluation and then write a letter

21:12

of referral evaluating your mental health

21:14

and capacity to consent to that surgical

21:16

care.

21:17

Then you go see a surgeon again for consultation

21:20

and eventually surgery. So it's a pretty

21:22

detailed process. And

21:24

the standards are not the same for almost any other form

21:26

of medical care that people receive, even things

21:28

like total joint replacement where there are high

21:31

rates of regret. People are not required

21:33

to go talk to a therapist about whether they might

21:36

regret having a knee replacement or

21:38

how they would cope with it, but trans people

21:40

are required to do that. So there are already very

21:42

strong protections in place.

21:43

So

21:45

something that comes up time and

21:47

time again

21:48

when it comes to healthcare for trans

21:51

youth

21:51

is the role of parents. And

21:54

parents disagreeing or people

21:56

being concerned about parental rights.

22:00

What would you say to someone who

22:02

has concerns about

22:05

their child seeking gender-affirming care

22:07

before the age of 18? I think that's

22:09

a very common experience.

22:11

So the Trevor Project did this really

22:13

incredible national survey of LGBTQ

22:15

young people and what they found is only one in three

22:17

young people have a supportive household.

22:20

So it's more common than not, the

22:22

young people are coming out in families that don't support

22:25

them to begin with. I think

22:27

for a lot of parents and what I experienced

22:31

is there is a youth mental health crisis in this country.

22:33

About 79 percent of trans young

22:35

people report experiencing anxiety

22:38

on a daily basis, 58 percent experience

22:40

depression, 45 percent

22:42

of trans young people have contemplated suicide in

22:44

the last year from that same survey from Trevor

22:47

Project. Suicidality

22:50

is like a disease of despair.

22:53

People get

22:55

to the place where they see no possibility, and

22:57

that's when they feel suicidality. So

22:59

I think for parents, what I experienced

23:02

was

23:03

feeling like we were moving towards a goal

23:05

where I had agency over my life

23:08

and that my parents might not

23:10

have agreed with everything that I wanted

23:12

to do at that moment. But we

23:15

always had a next step in mind.

23:17

We always were progressing towards

23:19

some other goal at a pace

23:21

that they were comfortable with and that I was comfortable with.

23:24

I think really opening the possibility

23:26

that

23:28

there is a path forward is the most

23:30

important thing for parents, even if they're not

23:32

super enthusiastic about the idea of medical

23:34

intervention, being okay

23:36

with starting the conversation and bringing professionals

23:39

into that conversation and getting

23:41

that dialogue going so that young people see

23:44

that they're

23:44

progressing and that they're able

23:46

to

23:47

share who they are and try to

23:49

start being in the world the way they need to be. So

23:51

I think that that's the thing that's most important.

23:53

Sometimes I have conversations

23:56

with older people in my life. who

24:00

really do want to understand, but

24:04

struggle just comprehending

24:06

the idea that there's a difference

24:09

between biological sex and

24:11

gender and sexual orientation.

24:15

And I

24:17

wonder how do we fill

24:19

that gap

24:22

between people who are saying, I'm

24:24

just asking questions

24:26

in bad faith and people who really

24:29

don't know and just

24:31

need more information. Do we fill that gap? Is

24:34

there a sense of, okay, that's not my responsibility? Like,

24:37

how do you navigate that? I've spent 20

24:39

years trying

24:39

to explain the difference between sex, sexual orientation,

24:42

and gender identity in the hopes that

24:44

it would bring people along in the conversation,

24:46

but I really haven't seen it be

24:49

as productive as I want to be. I

24:51

think the thing that I've come to realize is being

24:53

a trans person for me, and I only speak for

24:55

myself and not other trans people when

24:57

I say this, it's a spiritual experience. And

25:00

just like when people have a religious faith, they

25:02

don't have to

25:02

justify their religious beliefs to

25:04

other people who don't share that faith. In

25:06

this country, we accept people's

25:09

rights to have a belief system, to

25:11

practice that faith, and to not be

25:13

judged or discriminated against because

25:15

of that. I don't need to understand people

25:18

who are Muslim or

25:20

Hindu or Jewish, if that's not my faith, in

25:22

order to respect them and want them

25:24

to be treated fairly. And so for

25:27

me, I often try to

25:30

encourage people to think about trans identity

25:32

as like, it might not be an experience that you can relate

25:34

to. It's really difficult if you've never

25:36

had those feelings to understand

25:38

what it can be, and that's okay. I

25:41

don't need people to understand all of the

25:43

ins and outs

25:44

of what it means to be a trans person, to

25:46

respect trans people, to make sure that

25:48

we're safe in our lives and that we have the right

25:50

to be ourselves and pursue

25:52

like happiness and a career,

25:55

and to be a full person

25:58

in our society, whether that-

25:59

be in sports or being able to go pee

26:02

when I'm at my job nine to five, like something

26:04

everybody has to do, and

26:07

to be able to be a part of our society.

26:10

I want to talk about something

26:12

that I at least consider somewhat

26:14

of an elephant in the room. The

26:17

anti-trans legislation has

26:19

started

26:20

larger conversations about

26:23

how trans rights and trans people

26:25

are covered. And I think

26:27

for a lot of people who are in the media,

26:29

especially if you're a little, I'll

26:33

say old school, there's this knee-jerk

26:36

reaction to kind of make everything

26:38

a debate, like we're on different

26:40

sides and we're talking about this. I'm

26:42

truly believing that that is objectivity.

26:46

And I would love to

26:48

know kind of how you're thinking about all of

26:50

that right now.

26:51

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. One

26:54

of the things I've noticed in a lot of the press coverage,

26:56

like I was in Sweden and this

26:58

debate

26:59

started there, interestingly, a little bit before

27:01

it started here. And I've watched

27:03

it transition from like Sweden in the UK to

27:06

the US and watched mainstream media really

27:08

struggle to do a good job of covering

27:10

this. And I think the number one thing

27:12

that I've seen is a lack of voices

27:14

of trans young people and like

27:17

reporters and producers

27:19

and editors not being able to find

27:21

and elevate the voices of trans young people about

27:23

their lived experiences, their

27:25

hopes and dreams, what access to this care

27:27

means for them. And I think that that's

27:29

the number one thing that people need to hear. And that's

27:32

what journalists and the media should be doing is like, go

27:34

find the stories of those families and

27:36

support those families in being able to tell

27:38

their stories safely and maybe

27:40

not be targeted because it's terrifying to

27:42

be a young person. West Virginia

27:44

is an example. They like passed a ban on

27:46

trans youth and there's only one

27:48

trans girl who is in a cross-country team

27:50

in like seventh grade and

27:53

like literally the ban only she's the only person

27:55

in our whole state that's going to be impacted by that ban.

27:57

And like even

27:58

her cross-country coach. was like,

28:00

she's not a very good cross country runner. You

28:02

know, it's like that funny, right? And

28:04

it's like cute. But also like

28:07

reading that story for me is like that is

28:09

the truth of these bands, right? One

28:11

person who's not even great at cross country

28:14

and like the legislature is spending all this time

28:16

targeting that one person and that is ridiculous.

28:19

So I think that type of coverage is really powerful

28:22

and what I wish journalists would do more of

28:24

is like, who are

28:25

these folks that are being targeted and what is their

28:27

experience and their voice? And it's not

28:30

so much about a debate. It's about like,

28:32

these are real people and they have lives

28:34

and what are their lives like and why

28:36

are they being targeted? Because I think demystifying

28:39

trans people is what the press

28:41

and media can be doing. And so that's what

28:43

I really

28:44

wish rather than focusing on

28:46

things like what are the side effects of gender affirming

28:48

care? I really wish that they would focus

28:50

on like, what are the benefits to these

28:52

people's life? Why are people pursuing this care

28:55

and what has it meant for them?

28:57

All right, another quick break and we'll be

28:59

right back.

29:05

Hey

29:27

folks, I'm Heather Cox Richardson.

29:35

And

29:38

I'm Joanne Freeman. We're the hosts of

29:40

Now and Then, a podcast

29:42

from Cafe and the Vox Media Podcast

29:45

Network that looks to the American past

29:47

to make sense of our current political and cultural

29:50

climate. Recently, we've traced the

29:52

tangled history of the New York County District Attorney's

29:54

Office, the American cultural fascination

29:56

with UFOs and our national love-hate

29:59

relationship.

29:59

with the banking industry. Tune

30:02

in each Wednesday as we make sense of the

30:04

headlines and the long road

30:06

to this crucial moment for democracy.

30:08

Listen for free wherever you get your

30:10

podcasts.

30:15

It's the weeds, and I'm John Glenn Hill. We've

30:18

been talking with Danny Esquini of the Gender Justice

30:20

League about the wave of anti-trans

30:22

legislation we've seen proposed in states

30:25

across the country. And now it's time

30:27

to hear from you, our audience.

30:29

Here's our first audience question. For

30:32

those of us who live in more progressive states like

30:34

Washington, how can we support efforts

30:36

fighting anti-trans legislation occurring

30:38

in other states?

30:40

There are trans organizations in every

30:42

state in this country and there are

30:44

a number of different ways to support folks in

30:47

those states. The Trans Justice Funding Project

30:49

is a really good example. They have a directory

30:52

of people that they have funded and that's a community,

30:55

like Trans Justice Funding Project is money raised

30:57

from our community, given to our community. And

31:00

so finding the organizations in states

31:02

where these bills have passed and then supporting

31:05

them with donations

31:05

or reaching out to them to volunteer

31:08

is really powerful. I think

31:10

most people don't understand that trans organizations

31:13

receive like .0001%

31:14

of

31:17

all political donations in this country, like

31:19

incredibly tiny, like our community is

31:22

so small and under-resourced

31:24

that even small donations go a huge

31:26

way. And I think also reaching

31:29

out to support community

31:31

organizations in those states and reach out to legislators,

31:34

even across state lines, to

31:36

let them know that this is not OK and that

31:39

this isn't

31:39

supported.

31:40

Can you talk about the bills that pass to

31:42

benefit

31:44

the trans community and the grassroots

31:46

organizing efforts that resulted in those

31:48

successful outcomes? Here in Washington

31:50

state, we've had a lot of success

31:53

in the coastal

31:55

cities in like expanding

31:57

access to gender-affirming health care. So every public

31:59

and private. that health insurance company

32:01

in Washington state has to cover gender

32:04

affirming care in a non-discriminatory

32:06

manner.

32:07

All the other insurance asterisks apply

32:09

still,

32:10

but we have been able to pass protections

32:12

in many states. And I think those serve as

32:14

a beacon of hope for young people

32:16

in states that are passing these bans that

32:19

hopefully one day they can move

32:21

to a state where this care is covered for

32:23

them. And that's the message I also wanna give to

32:25

young people is that there is hope and possibility.

32:28

We have made remarkable progress in

32:30

many places in this country. And

32:32

I just to like break up that sense of

32:33

despair, I think it's really important to know

32:36

that we have passed non-discrimination protections.

32:38

We have passed access to gender affirming care

32:41

and insurance.

32:41

And we have expanded the number

32:44

of like major medical institutions

32:47

and universities that have really

32:49

good surgical programs. And that

32:51

has been a huge net benefit

32:53

for our community to even have the possibility

32:56

of getting care.

32:57

It seems like much of the strategy

32:59

in pushing these bills centers

33:02

on a disinformation campaign about

33:04

trans persons. Are there ways

33:06

to counter this?

33:08

Yeah, I think like elevating people's personal stories

33:10

is really important. And for people who aren't

33:13

trans,

33:14

sharing your own journey story of getting

33:16

to know trans people or why it's important

33:19

that these bills don't pass, I

33:21

think that that is the biggest thing. It's not

33:23

always trans people, like there aren't enough

33:25

of us to change the minds of

33:28

non-trans people. It takes a lot of non-trans

33:30

people talking to other non-trans people to

33:33

change their minds. And I think that

33:35

that's the key thing is familiarizing

33:37

people and also sharing

33:40

people's personal journey stories. I've

33:42

done a lot of focus groups and message testing and

33:44

research on how to change people's minds about

33:46

trans people. And the most powerful messengers

33:49

are non-trans people talking about their

33:52

personal journey of acceptance, how they

33:54

came to accept trans

33:55

people and that modeling that

33:57

for other people gives people the possibility.

33:59

of like, okay, I guess

34:02

I can accept trans people and let them

34:04

live their lives safely. Here's

34:07

another question from our audience. Not

34:09

all trans adults support puberty blockers

34:11

and surgery for minors. Who should have

34:14

the ultimate authority to make the

34:16

final decision about this for kids?

34:18

Yeah, it's really, you know, as in any community,

34:21

there's not always a consensus about what care

34:24

is right.

34:24

I know a lot of trans folks

34:26

who transitioned as adults and they don't

34:29

have the experience that I had as a young person, right?

34:32

I know what my experience was like and that it was life-saving

34:34

care for me. Like I was incredibly

34:36

suicidal until

34:38

I gained access to care. I think

34:40

ultimately parents, medical

34:42

providers

34:44

who are working with young people day in and

34:46

day out who know those young people and

34:48

those young people are the best people to

34:50

make a medical decision. Not legislators, not

34:53

onlookers, not trans adults

34:56

who

34:57

don't know these young people. I think

35:00

in this country, certainly, the

35:02

people who are most impacted, young people, the

35:05

doctors working with them and their parents or guardians

35:07

are the ones who should be making those decisions and that's

35:09

the only people for whom it should

35:11

matter. Here's another audience

35:14

question we have. There doesn't

35:16

seem to be a cohesive response from the left

35:18

to the painting of trans people as dangerous

35:21

by a lot of conservative

35:24

media. How can we change that?

35:26

Yeah, I think that it has been a very

35:28

tepid response and there are a lot of reasons

35:31

why. I think that are

35:33

one of the differences between the historic,

35:36

like why marriage equality gained so much traction

35:38

and I think it's hard for people to remember how slow

35:40

Democrats were to come

35:43

on board with marriage equality and they were incredibly

35:45

slow. I was there for that. Yeah,

35:47

I remember in 2008, people were not clapping

35:50

to, yeah. Yeah, and

35:52

I think it has to do with like the political value

35:55

of that community to the Democratic Party

35:58

and trans people

35:59

don't bring. a political value

36:01

to the Democratic Party. And

36:04

so it does not make sense from

36:06

a political, purely cynical political perspective

36:09

for Democrats to come out

36:12

like in full defence of trans

36:14

people. And I don't

36:15

like to be a cynic. I like to be optimistic and hopeful.

36:17

I wouldn't do this work if I wasn't. But

36:20

I think that that's why we've seen such a tepid response.

36:22

And I think for a lot of people, if

36:24

they're not directly personally impacted,

36:27

they don't know a trans person. It's hard to be

36:29

motivated that this is like your number one

36:31

issue to care about. And that's really

36:34

the danger of why this is

36:36

so incredibly dangerous for us

36:38

as trans people and as a nation is

36:41

like we have to move ourselves emotionally

36:43

in order to be really engaged. And my hope is

36:45

that more and more people will get

36:47

to know trans

36:48

people and that it will become.

36:50

And there are elected officials. Pramila Jayapal,

36:53

who is the representative here in Seattle in

36:55

Congress, has a trans child

36:58

and has been really public about that in Congress. And

37:00

that is incredible. Like it brings me to tears

37:02

occasionally when I hear Pramila Jayapal talking

37:05

so passionately, both as somebody

37:07

who has worked with her in the past. And

37:09

I think that that passion is so powerful

37:12

and it also brings more people to her

37:15

side and she can share her experience.

37:17

And so

37:18

I think we need more of that. And I think

37:20

people who are supportive need

37:22

to support and empower elected officials

37:24

who can share those stories. So

37:26

this is a really interesting audience question.

37:29

Any thoughts about the lack of support

37:31

for trans people in the US being rooted in

37:34

a history of misogyny in the US?

37:36

Yeah, it's a really interesting

37:39

thing. If you think about like

37:41

one, I think trans men and trans masculine

37:43

identified people tend to be erased in this

37:45

discourse. They just like are never

37:48

talked about and people pretend like they don't exist.

37:50

The

37:50

focus on trans women is around

37:52

like that where predators are dangerous

37:55

or like a threat to women that views

37:57

us always entirely as like men like

37:59

we were men. and we will always be men and all this

38:01

blah, blah, blah. And

38:03

people are not good at having nuanced conversations about

38:06

this, and I just

38:07

have accepted that in my career.

38:11

But I do think, obviously, misogyny

38:13

is at the root of a lot of this,

38:16

and the belief in

38:18

the right of both men and the

38:20

government to control both women and

38:22

trans people's right to their

38:25

body and to set the guidelines in

38:27

the way that those guidelines are not set for men. And

38:30

men's access to healthcare. I've

38:32

yet to see that, Bill. I'm waiting for it.

38:35

Where is it? And so, yes,

38:37

I think it is very much rooted in misogyny.

38:40

And as a trans woman, it's difficult.

38:42

We're on a podcast, people can't

38:44

see me, but from my youngest age,

38:47

I have experienced sexism. Some

38:49

of the most egregious examples

38:51

that even other women in my life

38:54

are stunned by the experiences I've had,

38:56

in part, because my trans identity means that I'm

38:58

so disposable to people. So it's not

39:00

just sexism and misogyny,

39:01

but it's the worst versions of it, because

39:04

I'm

39:04

also seen as powerless on top of

39:06

it. And

39:08

that's why I'm a huge feminist. We have

39:09

such a deep relationship with reproductive justice

39:12

organizations here in Washington state, and

39:14

all of our bills this year were like Pro-Choice

39:17

Washington, Planned Parenthood, Gender Justice League,

39:19

and ACLU of Washington. We work

39:21

together so deeply because it's so

39:24

interconnected, and all of our bills were about gender-firming

39:27

care and reproductive healthcare access,

39:29

because we see those as so deeply interlinked.

39:32

How can cisgender people be in allyship

39:34

and right relationships with transgender people

39:37

in actually equitable ways right now?

39:40

Yeah, I think like,

39:41

equitable ways is a really fascinating twist

39:44

to that. Yeah. I

39:47

think like one of the biggest things is like

39:49

not speaking for trans people in this moment.

39:51

There are a lot of ally organizations, big

39:54

names, and I won't mention them, who

39:56

unintentionally cis people in those organizations

39:58

end up speaking for us.

39:59

to elected officials, including in Democratic

40:01

progressive states like here, it

40:04

is really painful to have been doing this work for

40:06

so long and not be invited to table time

40:09

and time again, and to have cis people who

40:11

are trying to be helpful

40:13

speak for me, as if I don't have a voice

40:15

or that I haven't been in politics

40:17

for 25 years or like running campaigns

40:20

or raising

40:20

money or working in legislatures.

40:23

So I think that that's the piece about equity is like giving

40:25

trans people the opportunity to speak for

40:27

our community and to create that platform.

40:30

I think that's a really important aspect. And

40:32

then also like being equitable about

40:35

funding and, you know, like

40:37

we don't have a reach to raise money in

40:39

the way that larger organizations do. And I think

40:41

people on the left forget this, that there

40:43

is not like trans people experiencing

40:46

employment discrimination. It means our community

40:48

is economically disenfranchised. So our

40:50

organizations are economically disenfranchised.

40:53

That's who funds us. Cis people aren't

40:55

dumping money into trans organizations

40:57

as trans people who are. So I think

40:59

the other piece is being just and

41:01

thoughtful about if you're going to

41:03

raise funds on trans issues and mainstream

41:06

large organizations are right now,

41:08

are you giving that money to trans people to do the work? Not

41:11

just are you like hiring trans people to

41:13

work under a bunch of cis people, which is

41:15

a very different dynamic. Are you

41:18

transferring the economic opportunity

41:20

to trans people to

41:21

lead their own movement work? Here's

41:24

one more audience question. What

41:26

do you think about Montana's recent ruling

41:29

and banning of Representative Zoe Zephyr? I

41:32

think it's outrageous. It's anti-democratic. I

41:34

think it's an example of what people should

41:37

be terrified of. And

41:39

I ran for office here in Washington state in 2016 to

41:41

be a state representative. I

41:45

wish I could say that it would have been different here, but

41:48

I don't know that it necessarily would have. And

41:50

I think that people should be deeply concerned about

41:53

the future of a country in which, rather

41:55

than having discourse and debate, people are silenced

41:58

and literally kicked out of.

41:59

a legislative body for

42:02

something that was

42:03

honestly quite tappen. Like, if

42:06

it was me in that legislature, it would have gotten real.

42:08

Like, I mean, people

42:10

ask, like, what she said was, like, feisty

42:13

or rude or, like, broke decorum, and

42:15

I'm like, that is nothing, like, for

42:17

me on that floor. And

42:19

so I think it's like, it should be very disturbing

42:21

to everybody that if you want

42:24

to be in a democracy, and I do,

42:26

I want to live in a democracy where there is debate,

42:29

I do not want to see people that I disagree

42:31

with being literally kicked out of a legislature

42:33

that they were duly elected to, to be

42:36

there. And so it's very

42:37

disturbing. And I think it's not, it

42:39

is both about trans identity, but it's also

42:41

like we saw in Tennessee, right? That was about

42:43

race. Yeah. And, you

42:45

know, like, I think that we have to be deeply concerned

42:48

about what that indicates and portends

42:50

for the future of our country. So here's

42:53

a really important

42:55

question from the audience that I'd love to end

42:57

on.

42:58

How do you manage your mental health

43:00

in all of this? What? Mental

43:04

health, who is she? What is that?

43:07

Like, I'll be really honest. OK,

43:10

so I work in Washington state. I

43:12

do not live here anymore. We

43:14

don't talk about internal displacement in this country.

43:17

My life was threatened here. I had to flee

43:19

this state and, like, ended up

43:21

in Sweden where I had to see political asylum. It

43:23

has been a very long journey to get back to this country.

43:26

It's like my story is wild. Just Google my name.

43:28

Like, the drama is there.

43:31

Like, I don't live in this state because I don't

43:33

feel safe here.

43:34

I don't feel safe physically in

43:36

this state, even though I work in politics here.

43:39

And I'm not going to get teary,

43:41

but it's like I live in

43:43

a

43:44

secure location in a completely different

43:46

state on the other side of the country,

43:48

away from my friends and family

43:50

to do this work. And

43:53

it's hard. It's hard. I,

43:55

like, see a therapist three days a week, have

43:58

a psychiatrist. I have really supportive...

43:59

family members, but I feel very

44:01

socially isolated to do this work.

44:04

And I think it's difficult for people. People

44:07

act like it's drama or like blowing things

44:09

out of proportion. The people

44:11

close to me in my life have seen the toll

44:14

that this has taken on me and other trans activists and

44:16

how difficult this work is to have done

44:18

it decade after decade. My whole life

44:20

has been dedicated to this. And so I try

44:23

my best. I feel like every

44:25

young person that I meet just

44:27

like fills me with so much love and propels

44:30

me forward. And yeah,

44:33

I think that like being in the community

44:35

and like hearing other people's

44:37

stories propels me and is my mental

44:39

health. And I also know that there's like no breaks.

44:42

Like I don't get a day off because there

44:44

are young people who need me and other

44:46

trans activists to do this work. And so I try

44:48

to stay focused on like those real life

44:50

impacts. And that is the best thing for my mental

44:53

health is like hearing and listening to

44:55

trans young people and being like, OK,

44:57

like I'm here for them because like I had those

44:59

young I had adults, trans adults in my

45:01

life when I was young. And they made it happen for me.

45:04

They

45:04

moved the mountains like in 1998 to make my

45:06

life possible. So

45:09

I'm here for that. All right.

45:11

Well, we are officially out of time.

45:14

Danny Iskini, thank you so much

45:16

for joining me on the week.

45:18

Thank you. And

45:22

thank you to the Frost Set Ideas Festival

45:25

for hosting this live episode

45:27

of The Weeds. Thank you to all of

45:29

you for joining us here. You can find

45:32

the weeds wherever you get your podcasts. New

45:34

episodes drop on Wednesdays. We

45:37

hope you'll listen and subscribe. Thank

45:39

you so much for joining us.

45:47

And thank you for listening.

45:50

Even if you weren't able to be at the live show in Seattle,

45:53

we want to know what questions you have about

45:55

this or any other policy. You

45:58

can email us your thoughts, questions.

45:59

and ideas at weeds at vox.com.

46:03

That's weeds at vox.com.

46:08

That's all for us today. Thank

46:10

you to Danny Eskiney for joining us. Our

46:13

producer, Sophie Lalonde, Krishna

46:15

Ayala engineered this episode, Anoop

46:18

Dusso fact-checked it. Our editorial

46:21

director is A.M. Hall, and I'm your

46:23

host, Jonqulin Hill. Special

46:25

thanks to the folks at the Crosscut Ideas Festival

46:28

for all their help with this show.

46:31

The

46:31

Weeds is part of the Vox Media Podcast

46:33

Network.