0:01

It appears that Trump's

0:03

legal team are

0:06

actively, as well as

0:08

ABC News and others, are

0:10

actively watching with us and

0:14

videotaping it and

0:16

intending on potentially using it

0:19

for stories or for a

0:22

case, the case that's coming up

0:24

where I'll be testifying and yada

0:27

yada. So

0:29

this is not like a private, he's

0:31

not talking in a bar and we've

0:33

intercepted it somehow. He's not like talking

0:35

to the mirror. He's talking to his

0:38

audience on TikTok, Rhonda. It

0:40

really is stunning and I don't know if

0:42

anyone involved in this trial can stay quiet.

0:44

I mean all of these characters seem to

0:46

want to get their platform out there. We

0:49

will never give up. We will never conceive that

0:51

doesn't happen. That's

0:53

exactly what it was. And

0:55

you've been indicted over that? I

0:58

object to you getting murdered. Welcome

1:06

to the Trump trials sidebar from the

1:08

Washington Post. I'm Libby Casey and I'm

1:10

here with my colleagues Rhonda Colvin and

1:12

James Homan. And while we

1:14

are moderately comfortable here in our studio,

1:16

the former president Donald Trump is at

1:18

this moment in the icebox. That's

1:21

the courtroom in lower Manhattan where he's on trial facing

1:24

34 felony counts of falsifying

1:26

business records. This courtroom that he

1:28

tells us repeatedly in his hallway

1:30

comments is very cold. But

1:33

if he's not careful, Rhonda and James, he could

1:35

end up in a totally different type of icebox.

1:37

He could end up in jail. The

1:39

clink. The clink because he keeps

1:42

breaching the gag order. We will

1:44

talk about that in a little bit.

1:46

We're also going to talk on today's

1:48

episode about what's happening in court and

1:50

how the prosecution is developing its case,

1:52

how they're painting this portrait of a

1:54

hush money scheme. And our colleague and

1:56

friend Ashley Parker, senior national political correspondent,

1:58

will join us to... review an

2:00

upcoming witness, someone we rarely

2:02

hear from publicly who could likely take the

2:05

stand of someone who's very close to Donald

2:07

Trump, hope Hicks. So

2:09

let's dive in. Trump

2:11

was found this week to be in

2:13

criminal content of the gag order in

2:16

nine instances. I have the gag order

2:18

right here and the ruling of contempt.

2:20

Seven, we're on his true social account.

2:22

True, we're on his campaign website. James,

2:24

how big of a deal is this

2:26

finding of criminal contempt and the punishment?

2:29

This is the first time a former president has ever

2:31

been held in criminal contempt of court. That is a

2:33

big deal. And it

2:35

followed basically repeated

2:37

brazen ignoring

2:41

of an order from

2:43

a judge. It's a big moment

2:47

in the grand scheme of things. The penalty right now

2:49

is small. He's only fined nine thousand bucks for Trump.

2:51

That's nothing. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

2:54

But it puts Trump

2:56

on notice. And the

2:59

judge clearly is frustrated. The judge

3:01

had another gag hearing today, Thursday,

3:05

and the prosecution continues to

3:07

allege violations. And it

3:09

does feel like there's a game of chicken being

3:11

played where Trump is basically daring

3:13

the judge to put him in jail.

3:16

One thousand dollars for each instance,

3:19

Rhonda. But the

3:21

judge did point out that it

3:24

would be better if the fine could

3:26

be more commensurate to Trump's wealth. But

3:28

he's stuck because he doesn't have

3:30

a lot of options. What are his options?

3:32

Yeah, the judge doesn't have a lot of options.

3:34

In fact, the reason why it's one thousand

3:36

dollars per violation is because that's New York

3:38

state law. So if people are wondering, wow,

3:40

that's just a drop in the bucket for

3:42

Trump. It's because the judge has to comply,

3:44

obviously, with the state code. So

3:47

it's not high at all. But

3:49

it is the one real step that

3:51

this judge has taken when it comes

3:54

to contempt of court charges. And as

3:56

James mentioned, there is another batch that

3:59

the prosecutors want. the judge to weigh in on

4:01

a batch of potential violations. So we'll see

4:03

where that goes. But it shows you that

4:05

this is gonna be an ongoing problem throughout

4:08

this trial that Trump's posts on Truth Social

4:10

or things that he says are

4:12

subject to be violations of this gag

4:14

order. And I'll admit, I'm sort

4:16

of sympathetic to some of Trump's pushback to the

4:18

gag order, which is other

4:21

witnesses are attacking him. One of the things he

4:23

got criticized for was saying that

4:27

David Pecker was a nice witness, which

4:29

was pretty neutral. Judge Michonne said he wasn't that bothered

4:31

by it, but it's one of the things that the

4:34

prosecution asked for him to be gagged over.

4:36

Can you play that tape? Yeah, yeah. I

4:39

would like to hear your reactions, because it's important to hear how he

4:41

said it, where he said it, and maybe why he

4:43

said it. Let's roll the tape. Yeah.

4:45

No, he's been very nice. I mean, David's

4:48

been very nice, nice guy. Trump

4:51

made essentially a campaign stop before court.

4:53

Early one morning, he went to a

4:55

construction site, talked to reporters, and he

4:57

was asked about David Pecker's testimony, and

4:59

that's what he said. So what's

5:02

the concern here? What is the

5:04

prosecution saying about saying he's

5:06

nice? Well, the gag order says

5:09

you can't talk about any of the witnesses, and

5:11

basically the prosecution is saying he knows exactly what

5:14

he's doing, and

5:16

he's sort of opening the door to say

5:19

mean things about Stormy Daniels or Michael Cohen,

5:22

the two star witnesses who are coming up. And

5:25

the judge said, well, you know, whatever. He gets

5:27

a pretty neutral statement. And the

5:30

prosecution's saying, no, Trump knows exactly what he's doing.

5:32

I mean, the other thing that Trump's

5:34

lawyers, Todd Blanche specifically said on Thursday

5:36

morning, was that Biden made a

5:38

joke, President Biden, during the White House

5:40

Correspondents' Dinner over the weekend, and he

5:43

said Donald Trump is in stormy weather.

5:46

And the lawyers said it's not

5:49

fair that his opponent in the election,

5:51

we've never had anything like this, but

5:54

the sitting president and his political opponent is

5:56

able to talk about Stormy Daniels and Trump can't.

5:58

The judge was a lot less. Yes, sympathetic

6:00

to that and said you can attack

6:02

Joe Biden without needing to mention Stormy

6:05

Daniels. And Todd Blanche didn't

6:07

really have a good comeback for that. So I'm

6:09

sympathetic to Trump feeling like he's in

6:11

the midst of a political campaign, and he

6:15

has to sort of watch his words carefully. He

6:18

is a candidate for office. On

6:20

the other hand, you're not

6:22

supposed to talk about the jury. He's saying that—

6:24

Yeah, let me just go through what the four instances

6:26

that they talked about today in court are. One

6:29

is that pecker tape that we played. One

6:31

instance he called Michael Cohen a liar.

6:34

Another instance he talked about both pecker and

6:36

Cohen. And then one instance, Rhonda, Trump criticized

6:38

the jury. And Judge Marchand seems

6:41

to have the least tolerance and patience for

6:43

that. That's right, because if you look

6:45

at jurors, they are people who are

6:47

randomly selected. They are fulfilling this duty

6:49

that they have to. They're giving up

6:51

their life. They're giving up their work

6:53

for an extended period of time. So

6:55

it does appear that the judge is

6:57

not really taking any sympathy for Trump

6:59

on that part. But we did see

7:01

in the order that was earlier this

7:03

week when the judge concluded that he

7:05

did violate the gag order, the

7:07

first group of violations,

7:10

he did open the door that he may

7:13

release Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen

7:15

from protection from the gag order

7:17

because they have been out talking

7:19

about Trump as well. They

7:21

are very public figures at this point. So

7:24

he may remove them from the protections of

7:26

the gag violations. But the jury, of course,

7:28

these are just regular citizens just doing their

7:31

duty. Can I read to you

7:33

something that came from the judge's decision here

7:35

about holding Trump in contempt and

7:37

saying that he violated the gag order? It says,

7:39

it is of utmost importance

7:41

to this court that the expanded order not

7:43

be used as a sword instead of a

7:45

shield by potential witnesses. So

7:48

it can't be used as a weapon by Cohen and Stormy

7:50

Daniels. Right. Yeah.

7:53

I want to play for you what Michael Cohen is doing.

7:56

Cohen said last week, I'm going to stay quiet.

7:58

I'm not talking on social media. and

8:00

he sort of clammed up on, like, X,

8:03

on what was known as Twitter. But he

8:05

kept talking, streaming live on

8:07

his TikTok account. I'm going to play you guys some of

8:09

this tape. Let's watch. It

8:12

appears that Trump's legal

8:14

team are

8:16

actively, as well

8:18

as ABC News and others,

8:21

are actively watching with us

8:24

and videotaping it and

8:27

intending on potentially using it for

8:29

stories or for the case that's

8:32

coming up, where

8:36

I'll be testifying and yada-yada. So

8:40

this is not, like, a private... He's

8:42

not talking in a bar and we've intercepted

8:45

it somehow. He's not, like, talking to the

8:47

mirror. He's talking to his audience on TikTok,

8:49

Rhonda. It really is stunning,

8:51

and I don't know if anyone involved in this

8:54

trial can stay quiet. I

8:56

mean, all of these characters seem to want to get

8:58

their platform out there. This is kind of textbook Michael

9:00

Cohen, too. If you go back to

9:02

the early days of the Trump campaign, the first

9:05

campaign for president in 2015, Michael Cohen was out there.

9:07

He was known as the fixer. A

9:11

lot of journalists had interactions with him. I

9:13

think James could probably talk on that. And

9:16

this feels just a part of

9:18

who Michael Cohen has become, and

9:20

he doesn't appear that he's going to stay quiet.

9:22

I personally, you know, it's not televised, of course,

9:25

but I can't wait for the

9:27

readout of what the transcripts say when he's

9:30

on the stand, because you almost can envision

9:32

a shouting match between Michael Cohen and Trump

9:35

when he's in there, because they both won't stay

9:37

quiet. Everyone sort

9:40

of dislikes Michael Cohen. I mean, even

9:42

the prosecution realizes what a flawed witness he is.

9:45

The federal government chose not to bring

9:48

charges against Trump in part because

9:51

Michael Cohen is such

9:53

a problematic witness to the history of lying under

9:56

oath repeatedly. And

9:59

this is one of those... things where it's this

10:01

really seedy guy who we all have to acknowledge

10:03

is seedy who is their star witness and that's

10:05

why you have to if

10:07

you're the prosecutions lay

10:09

the groundwork in the foundation with all this other

10:12

stuff so that you can you

10:14

can't just dismiss Michael Cohen and then Get

10:17

found not guilty. And

10:19

so we see a prosecution that's very very

10:22

mindful of that Let's talk

10:24

more about what actually is happening in court in terms of

10:26

the case building in a moment But I just want

10:28

to stay with this gag order question because the

10:30

judge it's so much more complicated because Cohen won't

10:32

stay quiet And then the other

10:34

aspect of this is that the judge is very

10:36

mindful That Donald Trump does

10:39

have rights of free speech and the judge even

10:41

said, you know, he's running for office He recognizes

10:43

that he's running for president of the United States.

10:45

So he's trying to limit the

10:47

gag order But at

10:50

the same time James it the judge

10:52

has another step right Rhonda. You said it's a thousand

10:54

dollars or It's jail.

10:57

So what would it take to throw

10:59

the former president of the United States

11:01

in jail Rhonda? Well, according to

11:04

New York law, I looked it up yesterday It

11:07

says and this is a quote from it for

11:09

contempt. There may be a fine not

11:11

exceeding $1,000 So that's of

11:14

course why it's 9,000 for Trump or

11:16

imprisonment not exceeding 30 days So

11:19

if the judge did go the imprisonment

11:21

route It would be no

11:23

longer than 30 days and it would also

11:25

be in the jail of the county where

11:27

the court is sitting And of course the

11:30

the County of Manhattan is Manhattan

11:32

is in New York County. So it would

11:34

be in a jail There

11:36

but this is all of the discretion of

11:38

the court the discretion of the judge We'll

11:40

have to see if he goes that

11:43

route But we do know politically that

11:45

Trump has sort of been talking about

11:47

possibly be going into jail being a

11:49

political prisoner The

11:52

visuals would be very effective for Trump. However, the

11:54

experience would not be enjoyable

11:56

to say the least right exactly. Yeah Alright,

11:59

well, let's talk more And if you want to learn

12:01

more in a moment about what is happening in court and

12:03

how prosecutors are building their case, stay with us. Let's

12:12

talk about what's happening in court this week

12:14

and how prosecutors are building their case. Now,

12:17

witnesses we have heard from so far include

12:19

the attorney for Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal,

12:21

who negotiated the money to get their stories

12:24

about alleged sexual encounters with Donald Trump.

12:27

Also, the publisher of the National Enquirer,

12:29

David Pecker, and even the executive assistant

12:31

to Trump who knew about his personal

12:34

contacts, essentially his Rolodex. Also,

12:36

the archivist to C-SPAN, but let's

12:38

talk about him in a moment.

12:41

C-SPAN guy aside, what

12:43

sort of case are these witnesses

12:45

being used to build against

12:48

Donald Trump? Rhonda? Well,

12:51

for the prosecution, they

12:53

are trying to build this case that

12:55

this is also an election interference case.

12:57

They are using a New York state

13:00

law to say that the hush money

13:02

payments are directly tied to Trump's

13:04

desire to conceal these

13:06

alleged relationships in order to win the White

13:08

House. So they're hedging

13:11

their bets on this New York state law.

13:14

We've heard from, I think one of the

13:16

star witnesses this week has been Keith Davidson,

13:18

who was the lawyer for both Stormy Daniels

13:21

and Karen McDougal, who received the hush

13:23

money payments, allegedly. He's

13:26

really had some he has the receipts,

13:28

basically. There have been so many text

13:30

messages laid out this

13:32

week between him and Michael Cohen

13:34

about the payments, about keeping Stormy

13:36

off of interviews, about all sorts

13:38

of things. So we're really getting

13:40

a sense of a timeline, a

13:43

sense of the relationship between the

13:45

fixer Michael Cohen and the lawyers

13:47

for these two women. And

13:49

then also what's been really shocking to me

13:52

is that Cohen kind of feels like he's

13:54

on the sand. He isn't, physically, but his

13:56

name keeps coming up. And for the defense,

13:58

that might be a good thing. be a

14:00

good thing because Davidson seems

14:02

to be able to paint a picture

14:04

of Michael Cohen as the bad guy,

14:06

as the guy who's doing this all

14:08

on his own. Trump didn't really know

14:10

about it. This guy is a shadowy

14:13

figure. There's a lot of crude language

14:15

in a lot of the text messages

14:17

that have been released. So it does

14:19

seem like Michael Cohen is definitely

14:21

at the center, even though he's not one of the

14:23

witnesses right now. Yeah. I mean, it's come across to

14:25

me that he's been able to trace the trail to

14:27

Donald Trump. What do you think, James? Yeah. And I

14:29

mean, to run this point. Exactly.

14:32

That is exactly a meal. Both

14:34

the one of the lawyers

14:36

for Trump, his first question when he got

14:38

a chance to cross examine the witness was

14:41

before this trial, have you ever been in

14:43

the same room as Donald Trump? And

14:46

he said, no. And so

14:48

that's part of the idea that this was

14:50

Michael Cohen's doing. He was the one

14:52

who was cutting all these deals. But

14:54

a lot of the text messages and

14:56

conversations that Davidson has recalled with Michael

14:58

Cohen have Cohen saying the boss

15:01

is really angry about the story in The Wall Street

15:03

Journal a few weeks before the 2016

15:05

election that kind of

15:07

flicked at Karen McDougall's

15:09

non-disclosure agreement, where Trump

15:12

is seething that Stormy Daniels

15:14

is giving interviews where

15:17

she's being kind of coy about

15:19

her relationship with Trump. And the

15:22

Trump is going to sue you and, you

15:24

know, threatening to sue. So the

15:28

prosecution was trying to use him,

15:30

even though Cohen clearly was the

15:32

cut out, to say Cohen made

15:34

clear he was speaking for Trump.

15:36

There wasn't hints and nods. Cohen

15:38

was saying very explicitly that Trump

15:40

was directing this and that it

15:42

was for the purpose of interfering

15:45

with the election. The idea was

15:47

to buy silence until after the election. You know,

15:49

this was about suppressing the story so that Trump

15:51

could win the campaign. James, do you

15:54

have the sense that Bove has been

15:56

effective in his cross-examinations? Yeah. To Rana's

15:58

point of like what what the defense is

16:00

trying to push back on. Because there have been

16:03

some moments where it's almost like he should have

16:05

stopped asking questions. Like he kept going to be

16:07

a little too far and didn't get

16:09

what he wanted from the witness. Well, it's

16:11

interesting because, you know, the part of

16:13

the defense strategy with Cohen and Davidson

16:16

and everyone is to just paint this whole

16:18

world as really seedy, which it is. I

16:21

mean, this is like, what

16:24

Davidson does for a living is like

16:27

basically shake down powerful

16:29

people for money to

16:31

keep stories about things that

16:33

they're accused of doing quiet. And

16:35

so the Bove, I think, did get

16:38

some blood when he said, you were

16:40

investigated criminally for potentially extorting

16:42

Hulk Hogan over a decade ago

16:46

to keep quiet a story. And he was like, yeah, but they

16:48

didn't charge me with anything, you know, and it was like, because

16:50

basically what he's doing is going

16:52

to reach people and saying, if you

16:55

want this story to be quiet, pay me. And

16:57

so they're trying to, I

16:59

mean, that is shady. And so none

17:02

of these are like angelic witnesses.

17:05

And so I do

17:07

think that they've scored some points there and

17:10

of establishing the distance, but that is

17:12

how a criminal conspiracy works is that

17:14

the person who's in charge of the

17:16

alleged conspiracy isn't the one like having

17:19

every interchange with every lawyer.

17:21

I mean, that's why you have someone like Michael

17:23

Cohen and that's what the

17:25

role of a fixer is to keep the principle out

17:27

of it. So I

17:29

think it helped lay the foundation to bring Cohen

17:31

up. We got a lot of

17:34

insights into Cohen's state of mind. I think some of

17:36

the questions that the prosecution was asking, usually one

17:38

of the things you'd want to do in a trial

17:40

is like get out front, because they know where the

17:42

defense is going to go. So the prosecution was trying

17:44

to get at the idea that Michael Cohen, like they

17:47

don't want the jury hearing at first when in cross-examination

17:49

that Michael Cohen was sort of, you know, at

17:52

one point, Davidson thought Cohen was going to kill

17:54

himself because Trump wasn't going

17:56

to make him white as chief of staff or attorney general. I'd

17:58

slow down with that for a minute. Very

18:00

alarming rate. so. Just I would even

18:02

script. The human brain moves so fast. The

18:04

legs to get literary really are alarming. Testimony

18:07

That Michael Cohen was so upset that he

18:09

wasn't being brought to Washington to be part

18:11

of the Trump Administration. He was despondent. He

18:14

was beside himself. He might have even been

18:16

suicidal according to the with. Brian What's

18:18

funny is I remember talking to Michael Corner.on

18:20

Michael Cohen telling me. A reporter

18:22

like are: No, I don't want to go

18:25

to Washington. I don't want a job in

18:27

the White House. I'd rather stay New York.

18:29

And and I have. I believe this. It's

18:31

into town over what Cohen told me contemporaneously.

18:34

Ah, With. Basically why

18:36

does that matter The why it matters

18:38

is that Cohen in this conversation and

18:40

in for the most part David as

18:42

been sort of a dry witness but

18:45

he recalls getting this phone call from

18:47

Cohen while he's sauce rotten. Always a

18:49

distraught Cohen and to this week there's

18:51

the keep his key shopping and it's

18:54

like out to the mall with decorated

18:56

with like Alice in Wonderland and he

18:58

remembers it feeling really surreal of this

19:00

kind of like novelistic color or but

19:03

the key thing is Cohen says. I've

19:06

saved Trump's ass so many times you

19:08

have no idea. And he's betraying me

19:10

by not giving me a big job

19:13

and the restriction by not bringing me

19:15

to Washington. And the the he didn't

19:17

say I'm suicidal. The Davidson came away

19:19

thinking wow, this guy's really down and

19:22

that is sort of the mercurial Michael

19:24

Cohen of like get you know with

19:26

did this is the Cohen. A lot

19:28

of us. Interacted with

19:30

during that time were of

19:33

sort of like everything was

19:35

hyperbole and overstated and dramatic

19:37

and into. It

19:39

does capture com and state of mind in

19:42

some ways. It's helpful for the defense. concerned

19:44

by this guy was he had a. He

19:47

had an axe to grind. Rate mean trump

19:50

didn't given this big job that he wanted.

19:53

But it also gets had the feeling that Cohen

19:55

had like really. Gone. to back to

19:57

help trump than it does it was put in

19:59

the jury mind, like what other times did Cohen

20:02

save Trump's ass, you know, and cover up

20:04

for him? The prosecution is definitely

20:07

painting a vivid picture of the hush

20:09

money scheme and laying that out. And

20:11

we are hearing witnesses talk about, yeah,

20:13

how it worked, how that

20:15

was engaged. And the key is going to

20:18

be really tying it all together and watching

20:20

the through lines. While

20:22

the jurors aren't hearing from Donald Trump, they can certainly

20:24

see him in the room. They're not hearing his voice

20:26

unless he decides to be a witness

20:29

for the defense, which would be

20:31

shocking, but possible, right? For

20:35

journalism's sake, I think he should do it. OK,

20:38

so stay tuned for that one. But

20:40

even though he's not saying anything at this point, the

20:43

jurors are still hearing Donald Trump's

20:45

voice. And that gets us to

20:47

the C-SPAN archivist, who was

20:49

one of the witnesses. He was called

20:52

as a witness to essentially verify information

20:54

and allow it to be put into

20:56

record and its footage, thanks to the

20:58

plentiful archives of C-SPAN footage of Donald

21:00

Trump himself. So let's roll the tape

21:02

so we can hear something that jurors

21:04

heard this past week. Total

21:08

fiction. They're 100

21:10

percent made up. They

21:12

never happened. They never

21:14

would happen. I

21:17

don't think that happened with very many people, but

21:19

they certainly aren't going to happen with me. They

21:22

are all false. They're totally

21:24

invented. Fiction. All

21:26

100 percent totally and

21:29

completely fabricated. Never

21:32

met this person, these people. I don't know who

21:34

they are. I don't know

21:37

who they are. Think of what's happening to our country. Think of

21:39

what's happening. I don't know who these people are. I

21:41

look on television. I think

21:43

it's a disgusting thing and it's being

21:45

pushed. They have no witnesses. There's

21:48

nobody around. Donald

21:51

Trump Saying, I've never met these people. Now,

21:53

this is one of a handful of videos that's

21:55

already been played for the jurors. There are

21:57

others that have been allowed into evidence. What

22:01

if you talking about Rhonda? Well this

22:03

is actually a part. Of. A workaround

22:05

from the prosecutors be has the judge.

22:07

In the beginning of his trial said he did not

22:09

want any evidence. Brought forward to the jury that

22:11

went over any sort of. Allegations of sexual

22:14

assault. Ah that Donald. Trump as a

22:16

part of any sort of sexual assault. So

22:18

the prosecutors invited The Sea

22:20

Span the Director of Archives

22:22

understand our beloved Cspan. Is involved

22:24

ever been out of frame? It as run a minute.

22:27

Find out what him and opponents. A

22:29

lot of them are great here and

22:31

that right out of yeah. And that

22:33

was just so that these clips could

22:35

be brought in. That shows that Trump

22:37

does have a pattern of talking verbally

22:39

attacking women who said that he I

22:41

had allegedly assaulted them sexually. So that

22:43

is how the prosecutors are bringing this.

22:46

Part. Of Trump into this trial or

22:48

any sort of working around what the

22:50

judge had said he would not allow

22:52

so it'll have issues with it's was

22:54

don't from blinds or his teeth in

22:56

the differences in law stipulating them. To

22:59

do the talking about he was will you

23:01

talking About These kids They aren't allowed to

23:03

introduce the Access Hollywood tape but the jury.

23:06

So. They didn't see the tape but

23:08

they heard the contents we heard the

23:10

transcript in. They can refer to the

23:12

impact of the T had and so

23:14

this is all these women who have

23:16

come forward to accuse Trump of. Sexual

23:20

assaulting them in Trump saying i'm in

23:22

a sumo after the election and and

23:24

being really definitive in his denial. And

23:27

what have you ever caught? The jury.

23:29

All was Trump describing. Michael Cohen is

23:31

a talented lawyer. And

23:33

you know I think a kind of get to the

23:35

idea of like. Trump saying one thing publicly

23:37

and another thing privately into your point will

23:39

be like if Trump zoc going to testify

23:41

the this is the trend to they're seeing

23:43

and a gets a state of mind. Get

23:45

Felix why he was eager if he was

23:47

lying so blatantly and public. Why

23:50

he was eager to. Kind. Of like to

23:52

keep this quiet said these these two women

23:54

quiet before the election. right?

23:58

Let's. talk about the words of because

24:00

Rhonda kind of hinted at this and it's going to

24:02

be very helpful for understanding of this case. All right,

24:04

stay with me guys. I'm putting on my glasses

24:07

for this. Words of the week are New

24:09

York Election Law 17-152. This is a New

24:13

York State law conspiracy to promote

24:15

or prevent election. It's a misdemeanor

24:18

and you did refer to this

24:20

earlier Rhonda because it's essential to

24:22

the prosecutors being able to nail

24:24

this case and saying

24:26

not just this is a hush money issue

24:28

but it was done to

24:32

interfere with an election. Exactly. So this

24:34

is a little used law, it's a

24:36

state law, that the prosecutors, they didn't

24:38

reveal if this would be their tactic

24:41

until last week when they started their

24:43

opening arguments but this is something that

24:45

they have decided to make the center

24:47

of their argument that these hush money

24:49

payments are connected to a larger conspiracy,

24:52

a larger scheme where Trump wanted

24:54

to win the election. So they are

24:56

going to use the state law to apply to that.

24:59

I think legal scholars are super interested to

25:01

see if this will work because they are

25:03

centering their case on it. But

25:06

it's interesting because the defense position that

25:09

we've seen this week is to counter

25:11

this argument by saying look these this

25:13

is how high profile people act. This

25:15

is standard to want to

25:18

suppress stories that might be incriminating

25:20

but we'll have to see if

25:22

attaching the hush money payments issue

25:25

to an election interference issue

25:27

will work for the prosecution and if

25:29

that will lead to a conviction for Bragg

25:31

and his team. Now remember, Trump

25:35

doesn't have to convince or Trump's lawyers don't have

25:37

to convince everyone on the jury that he's not

25:39

killed, they just have to convince one or two

25:43

and if they can

25:45

poke at this hole that this is what

25:47

rich people do,

25:49

this is standard operating procedure,

25:52

this is the CD underworld

25:54

of tabloids that maybe

25:57

you can convince one or two people that Bragg

26:00

is sort of in using this

26:02

statute in a

26:04

very novel, untested way, maybe

26:06

overreaching. Although, of course, the jurors aren't

26:08

like going home and looking for their law books

26:10

and Googling, wait, hold on, I've got it, New

26:13

York election law 17-152. I

26:15

mean, so they may not necessarily realize how novel

26:17

this is. The issue, though, is they're going to

26:19

have to follow down the path, right? A to

26:21

B to C, wrap that all together, and it

26:24

leads to D. And there is at least one

26:26

lawyer on the jury, right? That's true. That's true.

26:28

That's true. So two of them will maybe know

26:30

this, but maybe not. I don't know. And

26:32

when the prosecution talks about it, they

26:35

make it sound so obvious and easy and kind of,

26:37

of course, you know, of course, you

26:39

did this one crime and further into this other

26:41

crime. We'll

26:44

see how that plays with the jury. As

26:47

Trump said of the jury, it's Manhattan. It's

26:50

a Democratic jury pool. All

26:52

right, we'll stay with us. Ashley Parker joined us in

26:54

just a moment, and we'll get to our reader mail

26:56

back. While most of

26:58

the witnesses we've heard from so far were

27:01

involved in the alleged catch and kill scheme

27:03

to bury negative stories about Donald Trump, the

27:05

witness list is about to get a lot

27:07

more personal for the former president. That's because

27:09

one of his closest former aides is expected

27:11

to take the stand as soon as Friday,

27:14

Hope Hicks. Now, Hicks was by

27:16

Trump's side from his 2016 campaign

27:19

throughout his presidency. And a

27:21

lot of us saw her much more than we heard

27:23

her if you weren't a member of Trump World. But

27:26

we know that they had a very

27:28

close working relationship. So here to tell

27:30

us more about what Hope Hicks could

27:32

provide on the witness stand is our

27:34

colleague, Ashley Parker, senior national political correspondent,

27:36

welcome, Ashley. So Hope

27:39

Hicks is a bit of an enigma to those

27:41

of us who are outside of Trump World. She

27:43

was always photographed right behind the president, right by

27:45

his side, whispering in his ear even. How

27:48

important is she as a fixture

27:50

and someone who witnessed the lead up

27:52

to his presidency? Well, she's sort

27:55

of the zealot of Trump World, right?

27:57

And she has this kind of fascinating

27:59

origins. story. She ends up in

28:02

his orbit because she was working

28:04

for the Trump Organization, working with

28:07

his daughter Ivanka, doing branding and

28:09

marketing. She had no prior political

28:11

experience. When he asked her initially

28:13

in 2015 to join his campaign,

28:15

she thought he was talking about,

28:17

you know, a campaign he was

28:19

running for one of his golf

28:21

clubs, a marketing campaign. So that's

28:23

how she starts. But

28:25

she has really been the person by Trump's

28:27

side since the very beginning. And she did

28:29

take a break in the White House. She left

28:31

for about two years. She

28:34

came—shefted in 2018. She came back two

28:36

years later for the 2020 campaign. But

28:38

even within all of that, for whatever reasons that

28:40

we can get into, she was

28:44

by his side, in and out, a fly

28:46

on the wall in just about every

28:49

important decision that happened in Trump

28:51

world, which means also all of

28:53

these moments and controversies and scandals

28:56

that special counsels are

28:58

interested in, grand juries are interested in,

29:00

federal prosecutors are interested, district attorneys are

29:02

interested in, congressional hearings are interested in.

29:05

So Hope is someone who has actually in certain ways tried

29:07

to move on with her life twice. She left the White

29:10

House again. And then afterwards, when he

29:12

wasn't president, she splits her time between New

29:14

York and D.C. She started a political—actually,

29:16

not a political consulting firm. She started

29:18

a consulting firm. She hasn't really done

29:21

much politics other than she worked on

29:23

Dave McCormick's Senate campaign in 2022. But

29:25

she keeps on getting pulled back in

29:27

largely against her will because

29:30

she is always called to testify. I

29:32

mean, it's been so many times that

29:34

she's been called before

29:37

people asking questions about Donald Trump and

29:40

the TikTok and timeline. Senate Intelligence Committee,

29:43

House Intelligence Committee, January 6th,

29:45

I mean, but she's not been seen,

29:47

but some of those things are now

29:49

all walking in and out of places

29:51

that she frankly doesn't want to be.

29:54

We haven't gotten to hear her, though, talk

29:56

much about that time out loud. Right.

29:58

A lot of this has happened behind doors? Yes.

30:01

The January 6 testimony parts of

30:03

that were public. A lot of this is

30:05

behind closed doors. Sometimes, you know, there's transcripts

30:07

or visibility after the fact. But,

30:10

yeah. So, Ashley, take us

30:12

to the time that the prosecutors might

30:14

be really interested in. As they're looking

30:17

at this moment in the ramp up to

30:19

the election, when Michael

30:22

Cohen, possibly Donald Trump, we'll see what

30:24

the evidence shows, we're finding out about

30:26

these allegations of women who were saying

30:29

they had sexual relationships with Trump. What

30:33

do we know about Hope Hicks's knowledge or

30:35

witnessing of some of these crucial

30:37

conversations? So, I will confess

30:39

that this is the part that I, like just

30:41

about everyone who is waiting for her to be

30:44

called and very curious as you would just say,

30:46

knows the least about. But my sense is a

30:49

couple things. You know, David Pecker, who ran the

30:51

National Enquirer, he previously testified that there was a

30:53

meeting in Trump Tower, I believe in August of

30:55

2015, that he said

30:57

Hope was in and out of, which again,

31:00

just shows you sort of it's

31:02

not that she was making decisions. It's not that she was

31:04

even officially advising. She was just kind of always around and

31:06

in the ether. But she was in and out of this meeting where

31:09

he agreed,

31:11

he and Donald Trump agreed that the National Enquirer

31:13

David Pecker would be the eyes and ears of

31:15

the campaign and try to kill damaging

31:18

stories that could hurt Trump. So

31:20

that is likely one area they're going to want to talk

31:22

about. Another area is Hope

31:24

Hicks was the person who was contacted

31:26

by our former colleague, David Farinthold, when

31:28

the Access Hollywood video came out. And,

31:31

you know, prosecutors want to make this

31:33

case about more than

31:35

just sort of sexual foibles.

31:38

They want to make it about interfering in

31:40

an election. And so it seems

31:43

like one area they may want to talk

31:45

to her about is this idea that by

31:47

the time this alleged hush money was paid,

31:49

because of the Access Hollywood video, the Trump

31:52

campaign was very worried about how

31:54

female voters were going to react to them.

31:56

And there was a sense that if there's

31:58

any more damaging allegations. that will hurt

32:00

his chances to become president, and this idea

32:03

that they wanted to stop at all costs

32:05

for political reasons, not because Melania would be

32:07

mad for political reasons, public

32:09

allegations about more alleged affairs. James

32:11

and Rhonda, what questions do you

32:14

have about Hope Hicks'

32:16

relevance and potential testimony? I

32:18

like how Ashley kind of classified

32:20

this as she's a person who has access.

32:23

She's a person who's in the middle of the

32:25

Trump orbit. She's like truly a witness. Right. She

32:28

is truly a witness. She has things that

32:31

other people don't have knowledge of. So she

32:33

could potentially be very key when talking about

32:35

meetings, talking about timelines. I'm interested in hearing

32:38

more on that when she does testify.

32:41

But it is also interesting to hear you say that

32:43

she doesn't want this role. She has tried to escape

32:45

from the White House, escape from the

32:47

Trump orbit, but keeps getting pulled in.

32:50

And I was thinking about her testimony.

32:52

It was an interview with the January

32:54

6th congressional committee. And

32:56

they have text messages that she

32:58

wrote after January 6th. She was angry

33:00

that Trump did this, said that he makes them

33:02

all look like domestic terrorists. I'm wondering... At one

33:05

point, I was looking at that testimony too, and

33:07

at one point she said, you know, everything we've

33:09

worked for is kind of all over, and the

33:11

only jobs we're going to be able to get

33:13

afterwards is for the local Proud Boys chapter. Right.

33:16

Yeah. And again, those are very real,

33:18

raw emotions on January 6th. Right. Yeah. She

33:20

seems like she's really aware of the optics of all

33:22

of this. So yeah, just having her there telling

33:25

whatever she knows is going to be super interesting

33:27

once we get the transcript. I

33:29

mean, I think the prosecutors can

33:31

use hope to establish that

33:33

a lot of the behavior was related

33:36

to the campaign, that it was sort of like,

33:38

how do we buy time to establish

33:41

the fear that existed right after the Access

33:43

Hollywood tape came out? Can

33:47

we push this until after the election? The other

33:49

thing that Hope can talk about, that we got

33:51

some indication of during David Becker's testimony, is that

33:53

she was involved in some of the

33:55

conversations in 2017 after He

33:58

becomes president. Along

34:00

with Sarah Huckabee Sanders about how

34:03

to manage these stories and control

34:05

some of the stories when the

34:07

Stormy Daniels denial came out So

34:09

I think see because she was

34:12

with Trump can speak to connecting

34:14

creating this nexus with the former

34:16

presidents and also establishing that it

34:18

was. Campaign. Related.

34:22

Or that there was a campaign mentality which

34:24

is important. But of course reading a slight

34:26

that it was in furtherance that he did

34:28

the falsifies business records in furtherance of another.

34:31

The name is another thing that's worth

34:33

mentioning that is not quite tell what

34:35

that prosecution was Say why I'm so

34:37

looking for an increase is hop again

34:39

is just assassinating. think our rights is

34:41

is rare person and the trump or

34:44

bet she's a former model and fill

34:46

the shoes the spotlight right says I

34:48

was so ironic rages on auto he

34:50

does not want again a satellite never

34:52

wanna that that she is frequently a

34:54

or least initially was very underestimated am

34:57

as in part I think because of

34:59

her modeling had agree and because. Of

35:01

her relative youth when she joined

35:03

The Way As and such a

35:05

high profile role she someone who

35:07

in this White House that was

35:09

known for it's warring factions and

35:11

infighting was. Well liked by

35:13

just about everybody. She also had the

35:15

absolute trust of the former president, his

35:17

family, and also the respect generally of

35:19

the media's She's someone who was in

35:21

all these situations as random as a

35:24

making her such a good witness, but

35:26

escaped not just with her reputation largely

35:28

intact, but this was one of these

35:30

Trump allies he needed a part as

35:32

the Under the Hood raises not. Are

35:34

you know she's been asked to answer

35:36

questions, but there's no indication that she

35:38

herself has done anything wrong. And then,

35:40

as are Under those are talking about.

35:42

i mean the she i always thought about covering

35:45

trump and trump's world is sort of like the

35:47

hotel california you can leave but never check out

35:49

or check out but not only yeah but like

35:51

there is this force field i mean i feel

35:54

i haven't covered trump starting and twenty's a team

35:56

right like if he wins that you know who

35:58

knows what have them but if he wins And

36:00

I think, again, I think, like, this will—you know,

36:02

this will be like over a decade. Like, I

36:05

will have given birth to two children, you know,

36:07

while covering Donald Trump. And I think Hope is

36:09

a case study of someone who, whatever

36:12

she does, there's still some—there's warmth

36:14

and affection there, and she just

36:16

keeps on getting pulled back into

36:18

that sort of like chaotic tornado

36:20

that sweeps up everything in its

36:22

path. How powerful could her testimony

36:24

in that moment be for Donald

36:26

Trump to be in that courtroom

36:28

and have her testifying, recalling

36:31

conversations, being asked pointedly, as

36:34

lawyers do, about the actions

36:36

of the former president? Because,

36:38

you know, you guys have talked about her testimony

36:40

to, like, the J-6 Committee and others, special

36:43

counsel, but Donald Trump's going to be in the room

36:45

this time. You know, it's

36:47

going to be uncomfortable for both of

36:50

them. So after his presidency ends, right,

36:52

she kind of leaves politics, moves on

36:54

with her life, but talking to people

36:56

who know their relationship, they're

36:58

in touch. They call each other from time to

37:00

time. She's down at Mar-a-Lago a handful of times.

37:04

And then there's her January 6 testimony.

37:06

And again, this is another example where

37:08

she does not want to be called

37:10

to testify, but she is, and she

37:12

does so. And her testimony on January

37:14

6, in certain ways, was quite explosive.

37:17

And the president was upset about it. He

37:19

sort of thought she had gone further than

37:21

was required of her. And so, again, I

37:23

think rupture would be overstating it,

37:26

but they have not—my understanding is they

37:28

have not spoken since that January 6

37:30

testimony. And again, people say their relationship

37:32

is cordial. There's still a lot of

37:34

warmth and affection there. They think—again, back

37:36

to the Hotel California. You know, she's

37:39

never truly out. But I don't think she

37:41

doesn't want to be doing this. She certainly

37:43

doesn't want to be doing this while he's

37:45

sitting, however many feet away. He doesn't want

37:47

her doing this. And it's not like Donald

37:50

Trump and Michael Cohen, who are now enemies

37:52

and, you know, kind of have that tension and anger,

37:54

but is a kind of way to get through this

37:56

moment. Like, neither one of them wants to be there,

37:58

and neither one of them— wants to really be

38:01

hurting or being hurt by the other one. AMNA

38:04

NAWAZ. Ashley Parker, senior national political correspondent, thank

38:06

you so much for talking with us. ASHLEY

38:08

PARKER. Thank you. AMNA NAWAZ.

38:10

Yeah, come back again soon. ASHLEY PARKER. Thanks.

38:13

Love to see you when she testifies. AMNA NAWAZ. Yeah,

38:15

yes. Thank you so much.

38:17

ASHLEY PARKER. Thank you. AMNA

38:20

NAWAZ. to sidebar

38:22

at washpost.com. Here's today's. Isn't the most

38:24

important question, when will the Supreme Court

38:26

rule on Trump's immunity? Would there

38:28

be a scenario where Trump gets up and

38:30

walks out of court mid-trial if they

38:32

decide soon? Oh, my gosh, what

38:35

an evocative image that is. This

38:37

is not likely to happen in this trial.

38:40

Explain why, Rhonda. RONNA HARRIS Yeah, this

38:42

will. The Supreme Court's arguments

38:44

over whether or not Trump has this

38:47

widespread presidential immunity will likely

38:49

not affect this case. If

38:52

he gets up and walks out, I don't know.

38:54

He could, but I don't think it will work

38:56

for him on this. That

38:59

argument is probably going to affect

39:01

the January 6 federal case, the

39:04

Jack Smith-led case, and also the

39:06

Fulton County case, because those two

39:08

focus on his actions around January

39:11

As president. RONNA HARRIS Right, as president, and

39:13

whether or not that was an official act

39:16

as president. So,

39:18

we will see. I don't think there's... AMNA

39:20

NAWAZ. So, this date predates being president. RONNA

39:22

HARRIS Exactly. It doesn't

39:24

like you get immunity for all

39:26

things you ever did wrong. The criminal

39:28

conduct in question is before he became president. So,

39:31

it couldn't have possibly been an official act. AMNA

39:33

NAWAZ. Even if it was allegedly in the service

39:35

to become president, it was before the presidency began.

39:37

RONNA HARRIS Right. AMNA NAWAZ. I

39:40

will say, though, if the Supreme Court rules on this during the this

39:42

trial, the New York trial, I do certainly

39:44

see a world where Trump may come to the

39:46

cameras and claim like, well, the Supreme Court said

39:48

I have a get-out-of-jail-free

39:51

card. I'm going now, but that's not going

39:53

to work. But I could see him using

39:56

whatever their decision is, if it's to kick it

39:58

down to the lower courts. decide, whatever it

40:00

is, I can see him using that and

40:03

telling people that he's immune, but that's not

40:05

necessarily how the law works. Yeah,

40:07

you know, and I do think, like, the

40:09

justices, we were surprised

40:12

by how many of the justices seemed amenable to

40:15

levels of the argument, but I don't, I

40:17

think none of the justices were

40:19

in a place where they wanted to give Trump

40:21

total immunity, which is what he's asking for, for

40:23

all things that he did as president. The

40:26

justices just weren't going to go that far. But a

40:28

reminder that a win for Trump isn't just

40:31

getting immunity, it's also having

40:33

the justices, if they decide

40:35

that this bears more conversation,

40:39

more judgment, if it has to go

40:41

back down to lower courts, that there

40:43

needs to be hair splitting on, you

40:45

know, just what acts are permitted as

40:47

president and immune and not, that is

40:49

a win for Trump because it delays

40:51

the process of so many other trials

40:54

where people are just waiting to get

40:56

going. As we watch this New York

40:58

one play out. Well, that's all we

41:00

have time for. A reminder, once again, you

41:02

can write to us, it's sidebar at washpost.com

41:04

and you can subscribe to our show. Find

41:08

us wherever you listen to your podcasts

41:10

and hit that subscribe or find us

41:12

on YouTube or youtube.com slash

41:14

Washington Post. I'm Libby Casey. I'm

41:16

here with James Holman, Rhonda

41:18

Coleman, and we will see you next week.