0:02

Welcome to the Times. Of Israel's Daily

0:05

Briefing today is Saturday June fifteenth

0:07

Day Two hundred and fifty three

0:09

of the War with Hamas Amanda

0:12

Borsa down here bringing us special

0:14

what matters Now conversation that I

0:16

conducted this week with their senior

0:19

endless covey Rettig goal in late

0:21

of to United Nations reports that

0:24

equate Israel with the Hamas terror

0:26

Group. We dive into the role

0:28

of international law and how it

0:31

is failing and it's mission to

0:33

protect. Enjoy! Welcome.

0:40

To the Times of Israel's what Matters

0:42

Now I'm deputy editor Am and where

0:44

said Dan speaking with our senior analyst

0:47

of Eve Great big goal and an

0:49

informal conversation. Have Eve thanks for joining

0:51

me again. Amended: Really

0:54

good to be here. It's been such

0:56

a long time and I keep thinking of

0:58

that childhood rhyme, Pussy Cat Pussy Cat, where

1:00

have you been? Because really, you've been to

1:02

see so many different people, including perhaps the

1:04

Queen Know, I'm just kidding about that. But

1:06

where do you mean for the past that

1:08

I don't know? month or. So. To

1:11

my knowledge, I did not mean any

1:13

queens, but I have been in a

1:15

place called Queens, which has to be

1:17

worth something from it can. Spends.

1:20

More of the last eight months

1:23

overseas than in Israel, as my

1:25

wife keeps reminding me. And late

1:27

last week I got back from

1:29

com. And over the weekend

1:32

I got back from a

1:34

almost an unbroken six weeks

1:36

in the Us and Canada.

1:38

I'm speaking to many different

1:40

groups, moved many different organizations,

1:42

basically Jewish communities meeting all

1:44

kinds of different jews talking

1:46

about the war. I'm trying

1:48

to trying to pay attention,

1:50

trying to notice. You know

1:52

what's going on over there.

1:55

Jews are many Jews. Surprising

1:57

numbers of Jews are incredibly

1:59

anxious and. Worried about what's happening and

2:01

we've talked about a lot of that and

2:03

none of this is new. but. I.

2:06

Think I'm mostly done with his

2:08

last long term foreign travel. It

2:10

really felt like my part in

2:12

in the larger sort of national

2:14

effort and and my part in

2:16

the war with we Israelis in

2:18

our education system learn almost nothing

2:20

about them. We go through in

2:22

our twelve years of schooling with

2:24

barely a class. Our on living

2:26

Diasporas Israeli Jews learn almost entirely

2:28

about dead diaspora. Isn't some of

2:30

that make sense? They are the

2:32

air's near the grandchildren of those

2:34

dead diasporas of who survived. But coming

2:37

to as robots of we don't in

2:39

our psyche really see. American.

2:41

Jews were almost half the Jewish people

2:43

and are going through a very, very

2:45

complicated period in which anti semitism suddenly

2:48

feels real and seals present to so

2:50

so many. I'm impulse, tell us more

2:52

than half. And

2:54

and and every surprised by it. So

2:56

there's there's a there's an entire dimension

2:59

of a Jewish world living through this

3:01

war, Responding to this more. All of

3:03

it's many challenges, but in some ways

3:06

they they're in a much more sensitive

3:08

position than Israelis. Israelis are sacrificing Israelis

3:10

family. Members are going into battle

3:12

and when two hundred rockets fallen

3:14

clearly and spot in the north

3:17

over the last few days, Israelis

3:19

are there with a siren sitting

3:21

in the bomb shelters. But Israelis

3:23

don't actually have to live in

3:25

the larger world in the larger

3:27

discourse, they don't have to answer

3:29

for. Or. Feel they have to

3:31

answer for the terrible suffering a palestinians

3:33

and doesn't with the to do so.

3:36

Anyway it's been. Absolutely.

3:38

Astonishing to travel to these

3:40

communities. Sit with people, try

3:42

to teach, Try to

3:44

do a lot of learning and yeah

3:46

now I'm back for a long time.

3:49

I think that part that role is

3:51

is is now taking a backseat self

3:53

never say never but it's kind of

3:55

sitting because to they were going to

3:57

talk about the. Use of internet.

4:00

Nobody's to steal.

4:02

Legitimize Israel. Such.

4:04

As for example, the International Criminal

4:07

Court, The International Court of Justice,

4:09

and of course the United Nations.

4:11

So part of this could be

4:14

the trial such as the genocide

4:16

trial. Or it could be the

4:18

International Criminal Court requesting warrants to

4:21

arrest the prime minister and the

4:23

defense minister. s But just this

4:26

week. To reports came out

4:28

through the United Nations and for

4:30

me in the most serious part

4:32

of these reports is. That they

4:35

so some kind of equivalence

4:37

between some Us and is

4:39

Alice for example the report

4:41

the came out and Tuesday

4:43

it's which basically puts Israel

4:46

and same list as Russert

4:48

this namic stayed outside or

4:50

Boko Haram, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen

4:52

in Syria meaning is road

4:55

be the only the first

4:57

democratic country included on this

4:59

list which essentially is saying

5:01

that it's due to killing.

5:04

And maiming of children and

5:06

attacking schools and hospitals. I

5:08

have to of course add

5:10

that from Us and Palestinian

5:12

Islamic Jihad were also added

5:14

to the list. So Israel

5:16

and Hamas and Palestinian Islamic

5:18

Jihad. And then yesterday both

5:20

Israel and some Us were

5:23

added to a report saying

5:25

that. They both

5:27

committed war crimes in the

5:29

early stages of the Gaza

5:31

war and saying that Israel's

5:33

actions also constituted crimes against

5:36

humanity. It's because of the

5:38

immense civilian losses and that

5:40

they included acts of quote

5:42

extermination said. This particular report

5:44

is the report of the

5:47

Independent International Commission of Inquiry

5:49

on the occupied Palestinian territories,

5:51

including East Jerusalem and Israel.

5:53

What's really interesting to me

5:55

in. Just the very. Beginning of this

5:58

report is the had their. Court

6:00

says the commission sense of the.

6:02

Government of Israel. Six requests

6:04

for information. And Axis and One

6:06

request. For information to the state

6:09

of. Palestine. The State of

6:11

Palestine provides an extensive comments

6:13

no response who received from

6:16

Israel. According to the Un

6:18

General Assembly back and twenty twelve

6:20

oh, they voted to give observer

6:22

status to the State of Palestine.

6:24

That vote in the General Assembly

6:26

permitted the State of Palestine to

6:28

during the Rome statute and therefore

6:30

be and own. Give.

6:32

The I see see the International

6:35

Criminal Court founded by that statutes

6:37

jurisdiction over anything home over Israel

6:39

over the Israeli Palestinian Conflict. Ah,

6:42

as the you and soaps say,

6:44

I think they're certainly a Palestinian

6:47

people ask for. The State of

6:49

Palestine is an organization on business

6:51

is Us institution without clear borders.

6:54

It's an institution without clear powers.

6:56

It's an institution without any of

6:59

the infrastructure of a states currency

7:01

monopoly on violence. Capacities actually govern

7:03

itself. I'm the most powerful governing body

7:05

in the territory claimed by the State

7:08

of Palestine. is Com Os and or

7:10

arguably Israel. If you're looking at the

7:12

West Bank and therefore not, you know.

7:14

So what? What Does it mean? That

7:17

it's a state? And it's it's. It's

7:19

a kind of aspiration whole thing. It's

7:21

it's a it's a. I.

7:24

Guess the would would be

7:26

whisked testing by the General

7:28

Assembly Hum that has international

7:30

legal ramifications more than really

7:33

any other ramifications. So.

7:35

Let's talk about the use of these.

7:37

International bodies and as an

7:39

Accents and. Or perhaps. Censor

7:41

lakes the use as international

7:44

criminal law. Basically, let's put

7:46

it this way: against Israel

7:48

and against. Arguably the Jewish.

7:50

People as a whole, Yes,

7:53

This. is something that is you

7:55

know it his international law illegal

7:57

institutions the international criminal court the

8:00

International Court of Justice. They

8:02

sit in judgment in theory

8:04

of certain kinds of crimes

8:07

committed by states and

8:09

they have taken a fascination

8:12

with Israel and not in

8:14

this war. It's long

8:16

standing. The ICJ had a

8:18

famous ruling about the wall

8:21

that Israel built or the fence, 95%

8:24

of it is a fence that built separating the

8:27

West Bank or most of the West Bank from

8:29

Israel as a response to the suicide bombing waves

8:31

of the Second Intifada. And

8:34

so there's been this real attention

8:36

on Israel by the international legal

8:38

bodies. It came to

8:40

a head now with South Africa's

8:42

dragging Israel before the ICJ on

8:44

charges of genocide, right? What's

8:50

interesting to me is always in

8:52

these questions the gap between the

8:55

discourse of elites and what ordinary people

8:57

experience, which I think is really fascinating

8:59

and important. And you suddenly see new

9:02

things if you try and get at

9:04

the social experience of ordinary people. There

9:07

is this elite discourse which creates

9:09

the vocabulary and pushes out certain

9:12

ways of seeing the world. So

9:15

if the elites at the international

9:17

institutions, if media elites, if

9:20

academic elites constantly talk about genocide, ordinary

9:22

people will start to think of maybe

9:24

there isn't a genocide

9:26

happening in Gaza or

9:28

in the West Bank or generally to the Palestinians.

9:31

And it's a way that

9:34

international law functions not so much as

9:36

a legal system but as a social

9:38

system or as a way of sort

9:40

of forcing a political opinion onto the

9:42

world through these elite institutions. Israeli

9:45

Jews have a

9:47

profound distrust of international law. And

9:50

before people who don't

9:53

like Israel snicker, that of course they

9:55

do because they're violating international law, It

9:57

actually has a very old and very deep history. During

10:00

I'm of a general Jewish

10:02

despairing with international laws which

10:04

eight which comes alongside the

10:06

the simple fact that in

10:08

some significant sense not everywhere,

10:10

not every one, not at

10:13

every turn, but juice invented

10:15

international law. And I don't

10:17

mean that the Bible created

10:19

a universalist morality in a

10:21

pagan world of local morality

10:23

or any philosophical thing like

10:25

that. I I mean that.

10:28

We've had essentially three generations of

10:30

a in international loss of of

10:32

Jews attempting to create over the

10:34

course of the twentieth century. Sensing

10:36

the this the violence that was

10:38

coming already experiencing a great deal

10:40

of the violence before World War

10:42

One and the interwar period since

10:44

World War Two. And

10:47

trying to build out at least

10:49

three versions of international law that

10:51

would protect them and each time.

10:53

That. Version sales them disastrously.

10:56

And to it m mentioned here

10:58

that in fact the term genocide

11:00

was coined by age you, a

11:03

Jewish lawyer a fan and and

11:05

it is rather. Ironic to hear

11:07

it being used against Israel to

11:09

this absolutely and linked in his

11:11

part of a much larger tradition.

11:13

A much larger tradition the tries

11:15

to look directly at sort of

11:17

the international community. Look at this

11:19

culture the Jews have of law.

11:21

I'm in. Jews have this denote

11:23

the right when during the judicial

11:25

Reform protests had a point about

11:27

the Israeli Supreme Court which is

11:29

that it is by far the

11:31

most powerful high court in the

11:34

world in the Free world. and

11:36

it's. Also one of the most trusted

11:38

institutions in Israeli government even as it

11:40

is so powerful and then has some

11:42

that both it's power and the trust

11:44

in it. Has a

11:46

lot to do with Jewish caught legalist

11:48

a culture. It's. Judaism.

11:51

Is. according to many jewish

11:53

thinkers and philosophers and rumba is more

11:55

a legal system than any other things

11:58

and even a spiritual traditions don't have

12:00

to believe in God to be a Jew, but whether or

12:02

not you're a Jew is determined by Jewish law. So

12:05

there is a deep identification with law as

12:08

a kind of foundational sort of source

12:10

of identity among Jews. And also Israel

12:13

has, I think, the last

12:15

time I checked, the highest per capita number

12:17

of lawyers in the world, which would be

12:19

a great Jewish joke if it wasn't true.

12:21

So there is a deep Jewish legal culture.

12:24

But I guess, just to, you know, I don't even

12:26

want to walk people through it because it's a whole

12:29

legal lecture. I am not a legal expert. A

12:31

great deal of this I learned from a

12:33

fantastic and vital international law expert

12:35

who lectures on these things and

12:37

actually has led some of the

12:40

Israeli responses at the

12:42

ICJ and ICC, who is Tal

12:44

Becker, legal advisor to

12:46

the foreign ministry. Basically, the story

12:48

is that after World War I,

12:51

the international community, at first with America's

12:53

urging and then America pulled out, formed

12:56

the League of Nations. And the League

12:58

of Nations was partly an attempt to

13:00

take this horrific, terrible, astonishingly violent and

13:02

brutal war, this war with 10 million

13:04

dead, this war that they

13:06

hoped would be what people called

13:08

the war to end all wars, and actually

13:11

make it the war to end all wars

13:13

by creating new ways of conducting international affairs

13:15

that would prevent another war like it. And

13:18

Jews were very excited, Jewish intellectuals,

13:21

Jewish thinkers, Jewish legal scholars

13:24

were very excited about the League of Nations.

13:26

One of the things that the League of

13:28

Nations included were specific, you know, rights for

13:30

minorities and protections for minorities that membership in

13:33

the League of Nations essentially committed you to.

13:36

And Jews tried campaign to be

13:38

included in the list of minorities

13:41

and were rejected. They

13:43

were not recognized. And

13:46

then you had a sort

13:48

of, there was a whole push, a whole period.

13:50

And it was not just at the League of Nations,

13:52

it was also in various national legal

13:55

systems among the new nation states formed

13:57

with the collapse of empires in World

13:59

War I. And then you

14:01

had a different thrust led by people like

14:03

Herschel Lautepach, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

14:05

of the UN, where the idea

14:07

was we can protect Jews, but we can

14:09

protect Jews not as minorities,

14:12

as recognized ethnicities, but in fact

14:14

as individuals. And so there would

14:17

be this individualistic human rights protection

14:20

that would save the Jews in the 20th century.

14:24

That, how shall I put

14:26

it, the Universal Declaration

14:28

of Human Rights comes after the war, obviously, with

14:30

the establishment of the UN, but the

14:33

idea had been there before and it

14:35

did not protect the Jews as individuals

14:37

bearing human rights. So then

14:40

with the foundation of the UN,

14:42

the state system becomes the

14:44

foundation essentially of international law.

14:46

International law had always been

14:48

something that is basically treaties

14:50

between states. It's inter-nation law,

14:52

or interstate law. Most

14:54

of international law is essentially what

14:56

I think of it when he

14:58

says bureaucratic, logistical. It's

15:01

the law of the sea and the

15:03

law of the postal

15:05

services of the world all interconnect, and there's

15:07

laws protecting that. There's a lot of commercial

15:09

law, but laws

15:11

in the sense, in international sense, of treaties.

15:14

But when international humanitarian law, or

15:16

the law of armed conflict, becomes

15:18

statist laws, in other words, we're

15:20

not going to have an international

15:22

law that's not protecting minorities within

15:25

new nation states, and it's not

15:27

human rights law looking

15:29

at individuals, but it in fact is international

15:31

law between states that will force

15:33

states to commit to only

15:35

behaving in a certain way, Jews

15:37

are at the forefront of that as well. So

15:40

you have, for example, the first legal adviser of

15:42

the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Shabtai Rosein, who around

15:44

1950, he writes an inter-ministerial

15:47

note. He's critical to

15:49

the early textbooks around the

15:51

world, basically, on this international

15:53

humanitarian law, and he

15:56

argues in an inter-ministerial

15:58

note to the government of Israel. in

16:00

1950 as it's considering signing

16:02

on to the genocide convention, which is

16:04

why it is now susceptible to the

16:06

claim of genocide at the ICJ, that

16:09

we're joining the genocide convention because it

16:11

will, among other things, protect us. In

16:13

other words, law is a contract, right?

16:15

Law protects you and therefore can demand

16:18

things of you. Don't worry, it's demanding

16:20

things of us, but it will also

16:22

protect us. And so you

16:24

have a long history of Jews

16:27

trying again and again in different

16:29

ways to convince the

16:31

world that international law is a great thing,

16:33

different versions of it in different structures and

16:35

different ways. And

16:37

each time they

16:40

are disastrously disappointed and

16:42

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results are no guarantee of future performance.

18:03

What? Are the things that is

18:05

so frustrating about what's happening? in

18:07

terms as the equivalency between Hamas

18:10

and Israel is of course that

18:12

Israel is signed onto the Zen.

18:14

The same to Benson, wears a

18:16

mask because it is a terrorist

18:19

organization and not disclosed the state

18:21

of Palestine events. Hamas is not.

18:24

Obligated under all of these

18:26

different treaties and international law

18:28

directors that Israel is. And

18:30

so even though. Israel is

18:33

being put under. Seems here as

18:35

some Us on this United Nations

18:37

list that I just told you

18:39

about it's only Israel that is

18:41

going. To quote unquote, suffer from this.

18:44

It's. Really fascinating because of of the take.

18:46

For example, the icy say I mean that's

18:48

exactly right houses are singled out. Why do

18:50

they really feel like this is unfair, right?

18:52

A decent. Person. Who's not

18:55

necessarily got a degree in international law

18:57

but just reads the news might think?

18:59

Look, the is always complain about being

19:01

singled out, but actually terrible things are

19:03

happening to people in Gaza to human

19:05

beings. Rights bearing human beings equaled all

19:07

other human beings. and they're suffering terribly.

19:09

And god knows there's enough of a

19:11

record of stupid rhetoric or really vicious

19:13

sometimes rhetoric from enough Israeli officials. Now

19:15

I can now parses and so people

19:17

that it's actually only certain ways. and

19:20

for some reason people don't matter and

19:22

all that. But if you're an ordinary

19:24

person, Who has access is basically what

19:26

you read in the news. You might

19:28

think the Israelis don't have a right

19:30

to pretend like the international is chasing

19:33

after them. There's real suffering and they're

19:35

causing it. So why do they get

19:37

to have this pretense that International law

19:40

is trying to get them? And the

19:42

answer is. In the larger structures

19:44

that are a little bit harder to

19:46

see. So for example, the International Criminal

19:49

Court as issued arrest warrants for i'm

19:51

Israel's Prime Minister or not issued it's

19:53

ask for as you said, you said

19:55

it accurately. I said inaccurately. it's it's

19:58

it's requested right for us. The

20:00

judges of the Icy face arrest

20:02

warrants for Israeli leaders and Hamas

20:05

leaders. How did the

20:07

International Criminal Court? Based on

20:09

the Rome Statute, which has jurisdiction only

20:11

over countries that are signed on the

20:13

Rome Statute have the jurisdiction over Israel,

20:16

when in fact Israel is not signed

20:18

on. The Rome Statute never joined the

20:20

icy and the answer is that there's

20:22

a state called. Palestine. Which

20:24

determine the Rome Statute and of

20:27

the crimes are committed in the

20:29

territory according to be a know the

20:31

Un General Assembly basically of that state

20:33

of Palestine which includes Gaza. Even though

20:36

no claim of the State of Palestine

20:38

to actually control doesn't any sense under

20:40

Hamas or under Israeli ruin any way

20:43

actually exists and real and any real

20:45

sense. That state

20:47

of Palestine is that has brings

20:49

the I see see the jurisdiction

20:51

it needs over is so now.

20:53

That's really interesting because the way the

20:56

State of Palestine was formed as a

20:58

legal entity capable of joining the Rome

21:00

Statute. Was a vote in

21:02

the General Assembly. There was a popularity

21:05

contest in which the Palestinians have

21:07

always had more votes than the jews.

21:09

Vastly more votes. Infinitely more of them

21:11

in Sixty Five to one are some

21:14

some both. Nine Nine did a

21:16

once I'm out number the jews and

21:18

soaks. International as essentially popularity

21:20

contest and also it to you another

21:22

weights and who's not a member of

21:24

the Rome statute and not susceptible to

21:27

i see see jurisdiction. Everybody

21:29

knows that Israel's into members and American

21:31

liberals on the last or frustrated by

21:34

this fact, know that America is not

21:36

a member of the I See seats.

21:38

So is China. China's not a member

21:41

of the Icy Seats. You know else

21:43

isn't a member India? You know, who

21:45

else isn't a member Every single Arab

21:48

state except Tunisia. You know, who else

21:50

isn't a member home. The huge numbers

21:52

of my states in Latin America, in

21:55

the global South or something like eighty

21:57

percent is standing armies are. Forgetting.

22:00

Like the Do It but a large

22:02

majority of standing armies are not actually.

22:04

Subject. I see is your sticks

22:07

in because they never joined the Rome

22:09

Statute and so the Icy See is

22:11

not in fact a tool of international

22:13

law in the various in into very

22:15

simple ways. the Popular vote. Of

22:17

States the vast majority of the

22:20

people who voted for Palestine to

22:22

be recognized in this sense as

22:24

a state were not democracies and

22:26

they were from the Muslim world

22:28

and they were invested in the

22:30

Israeli Palestinian Conflict. Not for Palestinian

22:32

rights, but it's a larger sort

22:34

of Muslim idea of a larger

22:37

Arab Israeli conflict and as as

22:39

as much larger political and religious

22:41

and historic questions answered the popularity

22:43

contest that the Jews are losing

22:45

at the General Assembly. Is

22:48

dragging them unwilling before an

22:50

international court that can never. Ten.

22:52

Are structurally. Ever

22:55

drag the American president before

22:57

it, or the Chinese president

22:59

before it, or the Iranian

23:01

leader, or the any Arab

23:03

dictators. or yeah, it's it's

23:05

a it's a structural fact

23:07

Simple fact that Israel is

23:09

brought before that court because

23:12

it is small and unpopular

23:14

and and would not be

23:16

before that court as it's

23:18

wasn't susceptible to a General

23:20

assembly's vote against it on

23:22

and so international law doesn't

23:24

feel. Fair when you call a

23:27

law that can't actually protect you,

23:29

Nobody has ever seriously claimed that

23:31

the I see See has any

23:33

influence just like you said, over

23:35

Hamas, over Hezbollah, over Iran, over

23:38

any melissa that is shooting it

23:40

is or else wants to destroy

23:42

Israel. Anybody anywhere who seeks Israel's

23:44

extermination. The. Isis. He has zero

23:46

capacity and no one even pretend otherwise

23:48

to protect us, but it can still

23:50

make demands of us. It cannot drag

23:53

big and powerful states before. Any

23:55

judge, but he can drag us because we're.

23:57

smith said is viewed built

24:00

problem in international human rights and humanitarian

24:02

law and the law of armed conflict?

24:04

If you can't enforce it, is it

24:06

a law? If it structurally,

24:08

innately cannot be

24:11

applied equally, is it a law?

24:14

And those are not problems that go away

24:16

just because you concluded that Israel is actually

24:18

the bad guy in Gaza. A

24:22

criminal who comes before a court, let's imagine you're right

24:24

that Israel is the bad guy. Let's

24:26

ignore Hamas for a minute. A criminal

24:28

who comes before the court for stealing a car, but

24:31

the court only ever convicts black

24:33

criminals and not white criminals for

24:35

the same crime. It's

24:37

not a defense of the court that the guy

24:39

actually stole a car. Yeah, he actually stole a

24:41

car. So what? If you can't convict

24:44

a white person for the same crime, if you can't

24:46

convict a wealthy person for the same crime, that

24:48

you can convict a poor person, you're not a court, you're

24:51

something else. And that's the

24:53

Israeli argument about international law. It's

24:55

really hard to see how

24:57

that's not true. And

25:00

I'm sorry, I've talked too long, but

25:02

there's one last point, which is even

25:04

the great advocates of international law just

25:06

treat it like politics. And

25:08

I'll give an example. The astonishing rescue

25:11

operation of those four hostages last

25:13

Shabbat, the former head of human rights

25:16

watch, a guy named Ken Ross, who

25:19

put it mildly doesn't like Israel, and

25:21

constantly talks, only talks obsessively in the

25:23

language of international law. That vocabulary, he's

25:25

one of that class of activists in

25:28

the world who thinks that if you

25:30

push everything into the vocabulary of international

25:32

law, the whole world will be a

25:34

peaceful utopia any minute now. And

25:38

he posted a Twitter post, a tweet

25:40

on, excuse me, X, it will forever

25:42

be Twitter for me. But

25:44

nevertheless, he posted a tweet on X, in which he said that

25:47

the fact that some of the cops of the

25:49

Yamam police unit who made their

25:51

way in to get

25:54

those hostages out in order to surprise the

25:56

people holding the hostage so they don't kill

25:58

the hostages were dressed as as civilians.

26:00

Now, armies are not allowed in the

26:02

battlefield to dress as civilians. That is

26:05

a crime in the laws of armed

26:07

conflict. It's called perfidy, or basically lying.

26:09

If armies dress like civilians, then their

26:12

enemies will attack civilians. And

26:14

so it's a way of drawing fire at

26:16

civilians. And it's illegal under international law. And

26:18

it's a great thing that that's illegal under

26:20

international law. But here's the thing. The LOAC,

26:22

the law of armed conflict, actually clarifies

26:25

that it's only perfidy in cases

26:27

in which you are

26:29

trying to kill or capture enemy combatants.

26:33

In operation to rescue hostages, in

26:36

which the hostages die if you are not

26:39

sneaking in quietly in the dark of

26:41

night, does not count as perfidy. Perfidy

26:43

doesn't apply. Now, that's

26:46

not the only problem with Ken Roth's tweet in

26:48

which he said, this is the crime of perfidy,

26:50

a war crime under international law. But

26:53

Hamas's only strategy,

26:56

its foundational war fighting

26:58

method, its battle doctrine,

27:01

it has no other is

27:03

perfidy. There

27:05

hasn't been a single member of Hamas's

27:07

forces in eight months of

27:10

fighting, above ground and below ground, dressed

27:12

as a military person

27:14

in a uniform. Except

27:16

for when they dressed in the IDF uniform, of

27:18

course. Yes. And

27:20

so the whole idea that you would

27:23

discover perf, cultural point, this is a

27:25

point about the culture

27:27

of these activists and advocates. Nevermind all

27:29

the technical problems with international law and

27:31

the substantive sort of equality problems in

27:33

international law, which don't go away if

27:35

Israel's evil. If Israel's evil, there's

27:37

still a problem. A justice system assumes you

27:40

deal with people who have problems and commit

27:42

crimes and has to be fair. But

27:45

culturally, to discover

27:47

perfidy now in a hostage rescue

27:52

is exactly the point. International

27:54

law is something that

27:57

these political advocates. Discover.

28:01

And and and discover new vocabulary

28:03

is a new ways of pretending

28:06

that this is something some absolute

28:08

principal when Israel is involved and

28:10

when enemies are involved, the do

28:12

it a thousand fold or a

28:15

hundred thousand fold. International just doesn't

28:17

matter to anybody, which is how

28:19

we also know that it's not

28:21

law. Was

28:32

what seems like an endless amount

28:34

of information at our fingertips. We

28:36

tend to suggest that wondering about

28:39

things is really part of the

28:41

journey to finding houses were looking

28:43

for. So when it comes to

28:45

the hot topics of Israel's Judaism

28:47

Zionism, the so much to wonder

28:49

about right now that it's hard

28:52

to know with whom. Entered the

28:54

latest weekly podcast from Unpacked, Wondering

28:56

juice with me? Call and know.

28:59

Join hosts. An educator extraordinary as

29:01

be so bit on and know I'm

29:04

wiseman as they tackle these topics and

29:06

the uncomfortable questions that surround them

29:08

with the goal of working towards

29:10

the answers together with their listen. And

29:13

tune in for a special episode

29:16

featuring a fellow wanderer of his

29:18

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29:21

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29:23

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29:36

unpacked the division of opened or

29:38

media. Very

29:48

tricky. Share this report that just came out

29:50

the sakes. Does it matter that in

29:52

this United Nations. reports the

29:54

sexual abuse rape decapitation

29:56

all is this is

29:58

all searching started. All

30:01

the atrocities or many of

30:03

the atrocities that Hamas perpetrated

30:05

against Israelis is also included

30:07

in this report. So on

30:09

the one hand, of course,

30:11

there's this equivalency. But on

30:13

the other hand, the United

30:15

Nations is actually accepting

30:17

that it happened. Well,

30:20

thank you very much. Right.

30:23

Correct. You

30:26

know, you want my view? My view is

30:28

that after we

30:30

exact the cost from Hamas for its crimes,

30:33

those who want to use

30:36

the language and the institutions of international

30:38

law against us as a

30:40

political act rather than any kind of serious

30:42

attempt to have a legal –

30:46

have a more law-based international

30:48

legal framework, give

30:52

us this thing because it's a

30:54

theory. In other words, yes, Hamas committed war

30:56

crimes. Of course, of course, of course. I totally

30:58

will dedicate five pages to this in the report

31:00

so that I can then spend all

31:03

the rest of the time explaining why

31:05

Israel's foundational existence and its every act

31:07

is a deep violation of fundamental morality,

31:09

by which I mean law, by which

31:12

I mean really actually

31:14

politics, my moral

31:16

politics. So, you

31:19

know, they've given – what does that give

31:21

me? I know. They said that actually there's quite a

31:23

bit of evidence that Hamas committed

31:25

quite a few crimes

31:27

of sexual assault of various kinds. And it's

31:29

really sweet of them to say that. But

31:33

it's not actionable or meaningful. There

31:35

is no demand of Hamas in

31:37

any sense. There is no serious

31:39

ramification or consequence. For Hamas, there's

31:42

no protection of any kind. Now,

31:44

nobody cares because we look powerful. We

31:46

don't feel powerful. Hundreds

31:49

of thousands of Israelis are affected by

31:51

this war profoundly and are vulnerable. Tens

31:54

of thousands still can't go home to the

31:56

north. What the hell is the international legal

31:58

world saying about that? That's Lebanon's

32:00

responsibility for the fact that people

32:02

can't live on the Lebanese border

32:04

behind UN approved borders. International

32:07

law doesn't exist and you know what? I'll take

32:09

it all the way to the end. I'll

32:12

just say the thing I actually want to say. And

32:15

the thing I want to say is this. International

32:17

law at its deepest core is

32:20

a fake out. In law

32:22

schools, first of all in law schools, you know, on

32:24

day one of international law class, the question is asked,

32:26

is this law? It's kind of a funny law. It's

32:29

a law that doesn't quite protect and doesn't quite enforce

32:31

and doesn't – in what sense is it law? But

32:34

then there's also the simpler social

32:36

reality of international law which is

32:38

that everyone goes back to the

32:40

Nuremberg trials. In the Nuremberg

32:42

trials, the American prosecutors made a

32:44

claim about these Nazis. They seem

32:46

to have followed perfectly the

32:49

laws of their country, of their government,

32:51

of their nation and yet they committed

32:53

other kinds of violations which are crimes

32:55

against humanity. It was a universal law

32:57

and this has roots in Catholic doctrines,

33:00

etc., etc. But

33:03

what's fascinating to me as that

33:05

being often described as the beginning

33:07

of international laws we know today, the

33:09

Nuremberg trials, is that it was

33:11

a US military court. It was

33:13

– what was the Nuremberg

33:15

trial? It wasn't international

33:18

law. It was American power.

33:21

After the war, America finds itself

33:24

a hyper power. It's astonishingly powerful

33:26

country, probably the most powerful country

33:29

in the history of humanity with

33:31

powers once imagined

33:34

to belong to gods, nuclear weapons.

33:36

I mean, America discovers itself in

33:38

control of the world facing an adversary

33:40

of the Soviet Union which looked very

33:42

powerful then but today we know was

33:45

actually not nearly and could never become

33:47

a real match for American power. Americans

33:50

are always worried about their power and always

33:52

need to describe everything in moral terms. They

33:54

have this old religious tradition and long story

33:57

short, they constantly talk about foreign policy

33:59

and moral terms and struggle with the idea

34:01

that there might be immorality in the use

34:03

of power and in foreign policy. And

34:06

so Americans went looking for language

34:09

in which they could talk about their

34:11

power in

34:14

morally validating ways. In other words, we are powerful, but

34:16

good thing we're powerful because that only means that there's

34:18

something called international law, which we obey and now everybody

34:20

has to obey and we'll get them to obey it

34:22

and everybody is more moral and more fair and more

34:24

happy and more – now, the

34:26

world the Americans built, the Pox Americana after

34:29

World War II is the happiest, safest, most

34:31

prosperous time in human history. It may be

34:33

coming to an end. I don't know. That's

34:36

a big debate they're having in America. But

34:38

that American concern with

34:40

morality was a good thing for the

34:42

world. But it ended up building

34:45

out or creating a political backing

34:47

for the building out of an

34:49

international legal world that thought that

34:51

it, rather than American power, was

34:54

what was making the world a better place. And

34:57

as it retreats, wars are now on

34:59

the rise everywhere and international

35:01

law hasn't actually built

35:04

out any serious ways

35:06

of enforcing, of bringing people

35:08

into the world of international

35:10

law. If most of the

35:12

armies of the world aren't part of the ICC, what

35:14

is the ICC for? It

35:17

is a way for the safe and the powerful

35:20

to moralize about their safety and

35:22

power. International law can't

35:24

protect me. It couldn't protect

35:26

Bosnians. It couldn't protect Rwandans.

35:29

It couldn't protect the

35:31

ethnic cleansing that happened between Armenia

35:33

and Azerbaijan. What, last year? The

35:36

Yemeni Civil War, the Syrian War. It

35:38

can't protect anybody, anywhere. And

35:41

so what's the point? And

35:43

the point is that Western safe,

35:45

powerful elites get to feel

35:47

moral about being safe and powerful. And

35:50

the rest of us living out there in

35:52

the real world where there's real danger and

35:54

cruelty and people like Hamas, leaders like Sinoir

35:56

who think that his own people suffering is

35:59

his major level. of influence over America

36:01

and Israel and therefore he needs to increase

36:03

it, international law doesn't have a language for

36:05

dealing with that very basic and simple and

36:08

obvious problem. And

36:10

so international law I think is a

36:12

lie. And it's a

36:14

lie made by, told by well-meaning people who

36:17

don't recognize their own privilege and safety

36:20

to people who when they find themselves in actual

36:22

danger can't actually turn to it. It

36:25

doesn't actually offer them anything. The Palestinians are

36:27

now getting the support of international law not

36:29

because they're in danger. No Syrian

36:31

got that support. No

36:33

Yemeni got that support. Nobody oppressed by the

36:36

Iranian regime gets that support. The Uyghurs in

36:38

China don't get that support. They're

36:40

getting that support because they're popular. And

36:42

that's it. And so

36:44

as the western, I don't know what

36:47

to call it, left, picks

36:49

and chooses the

36:51

cartoonish versions of it

36:53

in its own head of the conflict it

36:56

wants to take sides in as moral stories

36:58

it can identify with for its own moral

37:00

edification, it occasionally applies international

37:02

law to do so as a vocabulary for

37:04

doing so. So international law not

37:06

only cannot protect the Jews, when

37:08

push comes to shove if Iran's basic state

37:11

policy of our annihilation advances,

37:14

which Iran is willing to spend a double digit percentage

37:16

of its economy to do, none

37:18

of this will protect us and nobody

37:20

even pretends otherwise. Javi,

37:22

very depressing. Thank you for

37:25

sharing your insights there and I'm so happy

37:27

you're back in the land. Thanks

37:29

for having me, Amanda. Thanks for listening to the

37:31

Times of Israel's What Matters Now. Please

37:33

check out another installment next week. This

37:36

episode was produced by the Podwaves. If you

37:38

have any questions or comments about this or any

37:41

other episode, please drop us an email

37:43

to podcast at timesofisrael.com. Until

37:45

next week, Shalom.