0:05

Hi, welcome to the Times of Israel's Daily Briefing.

0:08

It is Wednesday, June 5, and I'm

0:10

Jessica Steinberg. I'm here today with diplomatic

0:12

correspondent Lazer Berman and political reporter Sam

0:15

Sokol. Hello, good morning to you both.

0:17

Good morning. Good morning. Good

0:19

morning. It is day 243 of the war. Nine

0:23

soldiers were hurt too seriously during a blast in

0:25

a base near Gaza. Meanwhile, up

0:28

north, firefighters battled the bushfires that

0:30

spread in the region sparked by

0:32

Hezbollah rockets. Residents

0:34

and local authorities in the area are demanding the

0:36

government take action to restore security.

0:39

CIA Chief William Burns will be

0:42

back in the region for meetings in Doha

0:44

and Cairo aimed at advancing the hostage deal.

0:47

We'll talk about all of that as well as

0:49

the ongoing push by U.S. President Joe Biden, conversations

0:52

that French Prime Minister Emmanuel Macron

0:54

had with Netanyahu, and how the

0:57

Knesset is reacting all of that to

0:59

the pending hostage deal that is on the

1:01

table right now. We'll

1:03

also talk about Jerusalem Day being marked

1:05

today. It's of course about

1:07

the rejoining of East Jerusalem with West Jerusalem following

1:10

the 1967 Six-Day War. It's

1:13

often marked with the controversial flag march

1:16

attended largely by religious Zionist youth groups

1:18

and their supporters, and it has often

1:20

been a flashpoint event. It

1:22

will be taking place as usual today,

1:24

with 3,000 police deployed around the old

1:27

city. Yesterday, there was

1:29

a counterpoint interfaith march held

1:31

for peace attended by several

1:33

hundred people. We'll talk about

1:35

all of these headlines just after a quick

1:37

break. I

1:42

got married this Monday in the middle of

1:44

war. You are

1:46

not a soldier anymore. You are 50 years old. What

1:49

is the matter with you? It's like a couple of

1:51

kilometers from here. Like my friend has a 4x4. Let's

1:54

just go cut across the fields and go get him. Israel's

1:57

stories, wartime diaries, voices

1:59

that... try to capture slivers of

2:01

life right now. And he told me,

2:04

take with you a sleeping bag and a

2:06

tent and just go. I

2:08

texted him like after I was told

2:10

that he was killed. From their eyes

2:12

I was a traitor. Everybody needs their

2:15

like blankie, their teddy bear, something to make

2:17

them feel safe. I'm just another

2:19

grandfather looking after his grandchild

2:21

while his son is off at

2:24

war. These children of Hamas now

2:27

will be the killer of my children. I

2:29

desperately wanted to talk about sex during

2:31

my eulogy for Ido. Everyone has

2:33

to choose to be optimistic because

2:35

we don't have room for pessimism.

2:38

Check out Israel's Story wherever you

2:41

get your podcasts. Okay,

2:50

laser. Take us through the last

2:52

24, 48 hours as

2:56

President Joe Biden is pushing very hard

2:58

for this hostage deal, making the calls,

3:00

talking to different people, trying to find

3:02

a way to make this thing happen.

3:05

What's your sense of what's happening right now?

3:08

Where we are is that there is

3:10

a full court press from the side of

3:12

everybody but Hamas to get this thing done.

3:15

It's in everybody's clear

3:17

interest and they are putting their weight behind

3:19

it. It started, let's go

3:21

back to Friday night when Biden

3:23

made that quite remarkable

3:26

speech where he laid out the

3:28

Israeli proposal that he had received.

3:31

Now, that was not something

3:34

that was coordinated with Israel. Israel received

3:36

three hours before the speech an update

3:38

from its embassy in Washington that that

3:40

speech was going to happen but they

3:42

were not updated on the content of

3:44

the speech. The speech was fairly

3:48

loyal to what Israel had agreed to, but

3:51

there's room for interpretation, which

3:53

is what we're seeing here, especially

3:56

with the Israeli and Netanyahu reaction

3:58

to that speech. There are,

4:00

based on what Biden said, and it seems like

4:02

he left it somewhat ambiguous on

4:05

purpose to make sure that the two sides

4:07

could each claim that they're getting what they

4:09

wanted, but the speech made

4:11

it seem like there would be a

4:13

six-week pause in the war, and there

4:17

would be the first tranche

4:19

of hostages being released, humanitarian

4:22

phase, let's call it, and then they would talk about

4:24

moving to the second phase, which is a permanent end

4:26

to the war, and it was unclear

4:29

how exactly Hamas would be out of power, defeated,

4:31

if there's a six-week pause to the war, and

4:33

then it moves into a permanent ceasefire. Afterward

4:36

Israel has said in every statement, and

4:38

suddenly Netanyahu was also Golan, but every

4:41

statement that comes out of Israel, that we're

4:44

good, we're fine with stopping the war,

4:46

but only if we achieve our war

4:48

aims, meaning Israel is fine to stop

4:50

the war. If during negotiations Hamas says,

4:52

okay, we will step down from power,

4:54

we will disarm, maybe the

4:56

leaders will go into exile, basically what we're trying to

4:58

do militarily, if it wants to do it diplomatically,

5:01

that's fine, that's fine. There

5:03

is not a lot of optimism in Israel that

5:06

Hamas will actually agree to that, but certainly Israel

5:08

is willing to go to that

5:10

process, start to get some more hostages

5:12

out, and that's why you see Israel

5:15

insist, and even if the system of American

5:17

guarantee is that whenever it becomes clear

5:19

that Hamas is not honoring its side, or

5:22

is just playing for time as it

5:24

has done, that Israel can go back

5:26

to war. Now what are we seeing

5:28

on the ground? We're seeing the fact that, as

5:31

you said, senior American officials, so

5:33

you have CIA director Bill Burns,

5:35

who has been the point man

5:37

on these talks, is in the

5:39

Middle East, and also Brett McGurk,

5:41

who's the Middle East envoy. They're

5:44

here, they're meeting with their Qatari

5:46

and Egyptian counterparts. In the meantime,

5:49

Israel is not sending a

5:51

negotiating team. We're still waiting

5:53

to hear from Hamas and

5:57

to understand, is there a reason

5:59

to actually to move forward in

6:01

these talks. So it's kind of a holding

6:03

period right now. Also you

6:05

heard yesterday from Qatar's foreign

6:07

ministry spokesperson, Madhudal Ansari, someone

6:09

who kind of we rely

6:11

on to understand how

6:13

Qatar sees things. He said

6:15

that they're still waiting for concrete

6:18

approvals from

6:21

both sides. Now that's kind of curious

6:23

because ostensibly Biden is given the Israeli

6:26

version, which if it's

6:28

the Israeli version, Israel already would have agreed to it.

6:31

But from the Qataris, they say the

6:34

distance between Hamas and Israel

6:36

appears to have shrunk. That

6:38

may be, but it may be as shrunk to

6:40

get to the table and talk about the first

6:43

phase, but let's not dilute ourselves

6:45

here. The gap remains

6:47

and it remains as vast as it

6:49

has been. Hamas

6:52

says we are not going to agree to

6:54

release all the hostages until there's a permanent

6:56

end to the war. In

6:58

other words, we win and Israel says, we are not

7:01

going to agree to end the war unless

7:03

you agree to our conditions, which means we

7:05

win and you lose. Okay, so then really

7:07

what is the likelihood here? I mean, obviously

7:10

none of us can really answer that, but

7:12

in your opinion, given the

7:15

way that Netanyahu and his

7:17

coalition have stepped away

7:20

from this possibility for a long

7:22

time, given the fact that

7:24

as you say, Hamas is not likely to

7:27

step down from power, but

7:30

then you have the big diplomatic push

7:32

from Biden. How

7:34

much influence does that really have

7:36

on the situation? I'm gonna say what I've

7:38

been saying, because we've been

7:40

talking about this for months now, obviously, I'm

7:43

never optimistic, right? Never

7:45

optimistic that to get to this

7:47

kind of final deal, I've never been

7:49

optimistic, even when the headlines have been

7:52

fairly rosy. You have

7:54

to understand that they are too fundamentally opposing

7:58

Demands here that I don't. I think

8:00

they can bridge what Biden is tried to

8:02

do is to say okay, we can get

8:05

them to agree on the first phase because

8:07

no one's given up on their core demands

8:09

on that will allow us to get more

8:11

hostages out so that's already good things. And

8:14

then hopefully you know one sense or

8:16

calm down. we can try to figure

8:18

out some ways to bridge the gap

8:20

on the end of the fighting. at

8:22

least for now. and I'm not optimistic

8:24

about that's. not what does Biden think?

8:27

So he had that Time Magazine interview.

8:30

Where he saw the headline is and this

8:32

is this is the way or us course

8:34

want to take oh my good friend did

8:36

as well that. Biden said he

8:39

people have every reason to think that this

8:41

me I was dragging out the word remain

8:43

in power meeting is not really trying to

8:45

get a sausage deal dance at the same

8:47

time. Biden said that

8:50

he doesn't believe that. Are said

8:52

he's not going to comment on whether

8:54

ceasing sets, and he also. Said.

8:56

That that? Ah, That.

8:59

Netanyahu, Has been trying to has

9:01

is facing a serious problem arm and

9:03

has really been been doing whatever he

9:06

can to try to solve it. So

9:08

it was biden. He doesn't always stick

9:10

to the script and sometimes it's unclear

9:12

exactly what he same so he seems

9:14

to be seen as two opposing things.

9:16

Here it's but in general and you

9:18

also heard that are from John Kirby.

9:21

On Air Force one. He was

9:23

saying that the Israelis has agreed to this. They've

9:27

gone to really a great distance here, and I

9:29

think that's true I don't I really am not

9:31

sympathetic to the claim that. That. This government

9:33

has not been serious on talks. If a

9:35

couple months ago we had said okay there

9:37

or they're gonna agree to a six month

9:39

paused for a while for only thirty three

9:42

hostages and to submit come out at once.

9:44

And we're not level all these lists that

9:46

we demand of who are releasing widows. The

9:48

don't have a list of who's live, it's

9:50

that we have set something to. but Israel

9:52

has. And I'll end up

9:55

with dried soldiers from from keep positions

9:57

in the Gaza Strip and Morgan and

9:59

just let p. Go unfettered back to the

10:01

North. I mean, these are

10:03

positions that Israel was really opposed to a

10:05

couple months ago quite rightly and now it's

10:07

it's the are made those concession. So Israel

10:09

keeps making concessions that get anything in return.

10:12

So I do think this government is doing

10:14

I'm more than I even expected to get.

10:16

Ah people out I'm so in that fight

10:19

interview is is worth reading and again he

10:21

said that Disney I was prepared to do

10:23

about anything to get the hostages back. I

10:25

think that's the key line on and and

10:27

Jacob went into the full transcript suggests that

10:30

because in the article itself it wasn't there

10:32

but but are good for him for really

10:34

highlight enough for the readers on by think

10:36

that's the key line that the Americans really

10:38

are happy. Are satisfied with

10:41

with this government has done and I

10:43

think just a satisfied largely with the

10:45

way this The Ruff operation has been

10:47

going. Because it's not the massive ah

10:49

Salt that we saw in Kansas City's

10:51

it's certainly more targeted and much more

10:53

careful. Than some

10:56

seared and and missiles. And then

10:58

one more question Laser. But we

11:00

also has a conversation that Netanyahu

11:02

had with a manual Mccrone yesterday.

11:04

He seemed to offer support for

11:06

this deal and for ending the

11:08

a good offer for coming. To

11:10

some kind of agreement. What was really the

11:12

nature of that conversation? What was really in

11:15

a sense being said: they're. So. The

11:17

friends throughout have. Been

11:19

in this kind of curious position where it's

11:21

at some. And some

11:23

matters the since you deeply at odds

11:26

with Israel so Mccrone called for the

11:28

end of the war bases a next

11:30

sentence in the French read out was

11:32

that Ah Hostas must must be released,

11:34

but there's no direct conditioning. Of

11:36

the to ah I'm which which

11:38

is something that that does not

11:40

line up with Israel's aims this

11:43

he said the ordeal of the

11:45

Palestinians in Gaza I'm must ends

11:47

but he also said the overwhelming

11:49

responsibility is out Hamas the says

11:51

microns I'm. So. The

11:54

French have been consistent in that, but

11:56

they really have not been behind Israel's

11:58

military effort to topple some. Throughout.

12:02

The But This is a series of

12:04

of conversations that Netanyahu was doing with

12:06

with European leaders. ah I'm you know

12:08

about this and but there were some

12:10

Mccrone bring emphasize reiterate francis support for

12:12

Israel people, the French people support and

12:15

and the need to get all the

12:17

hostages out. They still have I believe

12:19

to fred citizens been held. Ah I'm.

12:22

So. So yes to that's that. I

12:24

was from the French side. On the

12:26

Israeli side. it's the same message that

12:28

I talked about earlier that missing out

12:31

of Mccrone. We will insist no matter

12:33

what, even if there's a deal on

12:35

our conditions, that is the only way

12:38

the world and are conditions are toppling.

12:40

From Us militarily and as a governing

12:42

forests are getting all the hostages out

12:45

living and dead and making sure that

12:47

gazette will not be a platform for

12:49

future threats of his. Okay, thanks for

12:51

that laser. Okay, going to take a

12:53

quick break from her back. Sam What's

12:56

hot us about the mood in the

12:58

Knesset regarding the hostage agreements? What the

13:00

various parts of did Sonos colas and

13:02

how they are reacting are positively and

13:04

negatively? Stay with Es. Salaam.

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14:25

Sam, tell us about

14:27

the Knesset yesterday. Obviously there are

14:29

the far-right members of the Netanyahu's

14:31

coalition, but Celos Motrych and

14:34

Yitzam Arbenvier who have said they will

14:36

not stay in if this

14:38

agreement on the table is signed,

14:40

sealed and delivered. The Ha'radi

14:43

parties seem to be coming

14:45

closer to Netanyahu and saying they will stay

14:47

in, but tell us what you

14:49

heard, what you saw, and what you

14:51

think about all of it. Well on

14:53

Monday speaking in a closed-door meeting of

14:56

the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, Netanyahu

14:59

sort of pushed back as laser

15:01

was saying there's been different interpretations

15:03

of the of

15:05

the outline in the United States

15:08

and in Israel. Netanyahu insisted that

15:10

the proposal that Biden presented was

15:13

incomplete and that he

15:15

would not be ending the war and

15:18

these assurances were very

15:20

much not good enough

15:22

for his far-right partners,

15:24

Celos Motrych and Yitzam

15:26

Arbenvier. Benvier during his

15:29

Wasamayud parties faction meeting,

15:31

repeatedly stated that Netanyahu

15:33

had refused to show

15:35

him the draft of

15:37

the outline and

15:39

accused the Prime Minister of

15:41

whitewashing the proposal. And

15:44

he reiterated his threat to bring

15:47

down the government if Netanyahu signs what

15:49

he calls a reckless deal. Similarly,

15:52

Motrych speaking during

15:56

a press conference later that

15:58

afternoon accused Netanyahu Yahoo of.

16:01

Ah, Pushing. A.

16:04

Ah, An outline which is in

16:06

his words in violation of the

16:08

law and stated.that it would be

16:10

are. Be. A dangerous

16:12

deal. And that is

16:15

real. Really can't pay the price

16:17

of for leasing. Got releasing god

16:19

security prisoners saw terrorists in exchange

16:21

for the hostages are one thing

16:24

that keeps being brought up again

16:26

and again. I was speaking to

16:28

Heritage Minister are Emilio Yahoo from

16:31

Law. From. Been

16:33

through so for you departing and he

16:35

brought up the Celine Dion Twenty Eleven

16:37

are as we know guy us in

16:39

war of the architect of the October

16:41

Seventh Massacre was released on that deal

16:43

and the feeling on. The. Right

16:46

flank of the coalition is that

16:48

doing something along those lines now

16:50

would both of we can our

16:52

effort to destroy Hamas and would

16:54

essentially be a repeat of the

16:56

Celine Dion. Ah. One thing

16:58

that I been very interesting on

17:01

Monday was that the families of

17:03

hostages have been very pressing to

17:05

mix asset attending facts in meetings.

17:07

Going to our committee is ah,

17:09

standing in the guest area of

17:12

the plenum the science and they.

17:14

Came in. Several of them came in

17:16

to the of my you did faction

17:19

meeting on Monday afternoon and they were

17:21

initially will be couldn't come in. After

17:23

an assortment of back and forth they

17:25

were told okay and com and just

17:27

don't protest or yellow dusting Quietly and

17:29

initially they were speaking to the Mk

17:32

is odd. He disagreed that they were

17:34

being things evolve. Ah Sir William cute

17:36

hug them they were talking. And

17:39

then. There. Was announced meant

17:41

that the meeting was moving rooms

17:43

and everyone started running down the

17:45

hall to another room. Are.

17:48

Trying to get there before

17:50

the yard before the hostage

17:52

families could and security guards

17:54

from the be some small

17:56

specific that the guard were

17:58

actually preventing. Ah to have

18:01

families can come in and at that

18:03

point the stage to sit in. Yelling.

18:05

Yes to that, He I was. outline.

18:08

Ah, Well. Then. To

18:10

be or refused resolutely to allow them

18:12

into the room and I think this

18:15

is something that the hostage families were

18:17

low. Felt very hurt and offended by.

18:20

Ah, On the other hand, On

18:22

the voice in the hard right flank

18:24

of the coalition. As he said, the

18:26

ultra Orthodox are ah at this point

18:28

very much in favor of the outline

18:30

I think. You. Know that the

18:32

the. The. Job he says

18:34

they gave were the ah the

18:37

mitzvah to jones who in of

18:39

our on far ransom in captives

18:41

and de yah mad and yeah

18:43

you know the value of people

18:45

snapfish of saving lives now. These.

18:49

Are facts have traditionally not really

18:51

had. And. Is. Hard

18:54

views as parties on

18:56

national security issues. ah.

18:59

You. Know, I think there's a certain

19:01

feeling that we don't go to the

19:03

army. it's not going to be good

19:05

for us in terms of optics if

19:08

we win his issues and in addition,

19:10

it's not one of the core issues

19:12

as important to them politically. their ah

19:15

their main issues involved easy but budgets

19:17

keeping she was since out of these

19:19

out of the Army, air Forces and

19:21

different things and ah, it's not particularly

19:24

surprising given the high stakes in ways

19:26

that saw you know it on the

19:28

line. And there are long

19:30

time support for Netanyahu and their

19:32

political like Netanyahu that they would

19:34

come out in favor of Us:

19:36

Jutland. Okay, switching gears a little

19:38

bit semi know you're heading to

19:41

the Flag March today or we'll

19:43

be covering. That tells a little

19:45

bit about where you'll be and

19:47

expectations. Well. We've seen in

19:49

the past that star he's events have

19:51

led to frictions and even fighting. Ah.

19:54

I think there's a concern. I was on

19:56

a yard briefing call yesterday with the police

19:58

and with the for. And some

20:02

of the impression, I guess, there's little

20:04

general concern. The police have said that

20:06

they're taking every precaution to keep things

20:09

safe. But from my questions, the questions

20:11

of other reporters, you can sort of

20:13

get that feeling that there is a

20:16

concern based on past performance being

20:18

indicative of future performance. And especially

20:20

given the detentions in Israel now,

20:23

that this could lead to clashes,

20:25

to fighting. And

20:27

the presence of Ben

20:29

Kveer at the march

20:31

has been, I think, a source

20:33

of concern for some people. The

20:36

police repeatedly said that they would not comment

20:39

on anything political. But I

20:41

think it's fair to say that the

20:44

presence of Ben Kveer and the tensions

20:46

in the region right now are not conducive

20:49

to this going off without a hitch. Okay.

20:51

I hear that. So we will

20:53

certainly be covering that and following that throughout the

20:56

day. Thank you, Sam, and

20:58

thank you, Lazer, for being with me on today's

21:00

daily briefing. It's been good to hear what you

21:02

have to say. Thanks. Have a great day. You

21:04

too. And thanks for listening to the Times Visuals

21:06

Daily Briefing. We'll be back again tomorrow with another

21:08

installment. This episode is produced

21:10

by the Podwaves. As always, any

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comments or reactions, please email

21:15

us, podcast, at timesavisional.com.

21:18

Until next time, be well, take

21:20

care, have yourselves a good day.