0:05

Welcome to the Times of Israel's Daily

0:07

Briefing. Today is Saturday, June 1st, day

0:09

239 of the war with Hamas. Amanda

0:14

Borshell-Dan here, and today I'm bringing

0:16

you a conversation I recorded earlier in

0:18

the week in our Jerusalem offices with

0:21

the head of the Anti-Defamation

0:23

League, Jonathan Greenblatt. As

0:26

Jonathan will soon explain, the ADL

0:28

was founded over 100 years ago

0:30

at a time in which anti-Semitism

0:32

was on the rise in the

0:34

United States. While

0:36

headquartered in New York, the

0:39

organization has dozens of regional

0:41

offices throughout the U.S. and

0:43

is partnering with international organizations

0:46

and institutions such as

0:48

Tel Aviv University, to name just one,

0:51

in its endeavor to

0:53

document anti-Semitic incidents worldwide.

0:56

This spring was, of course,

0:58

marked with a new crop

1:00

of threats against Jewish students

1:02

as pro-Palestinian encampments sprung up

1:04

on campuses. We discuss

1:07

when freedom of expression crosses

1:09

the line into dehumanization, and

1:11

how with every new social

1:14

media platform, there is a

1:16

rapidly changing buffet of opportunities

1:19

for hate speech. All

1:21

this and much, much more from

1:23

my conversation with ADL head Jonathan

1:25

Greenblatt when we're back. Do

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future performance. Jonathan.

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Thank you so much for joining me today and

2:43

I Jerusalem office. Thanks for having me

2:45

with so much to discuss your

2:47

your organization is more. Relevant the

2:49

sea? Or then perhaps ever before,

2:51

Would you do that assessment? Well,

2:54

I think it's fair to say

2:56

I mean, a Dlc oldest at

2:58

the Heat Organization in America was

3:01

founded in Nineteen Thirteen in a

3:03

moment of pervasive discrimination and widespread

3:05

decimation of the Jewish people. And.

3:08

Anti semitism is a kind of virus that

3:11

I think we've worked very hard to combat,

3:13

but haven't yet quite found a cure. But.

3:16

If you're assessing the organization

3:18

on the basis of the

3:21

volume and the velocity of

3:23

anti Jewish hate, There. Definitely

3:25

has never been a time like this. Least.

3:28

Non Maritza Not anything close

3:30

to this has happened since

3:33

nineteen thirties. You in a

3:35

way kind of predicted it it seems because

3:37

you have to say. Present, but most

3:39

importantly of. Bed But even

3:41

better title of it is it

3:44

could happen here. Why America is

3:46

tipping? Some hate to the unsinkable.

3:48

So many cousins and this. But

3:50

first of all, are we in.

3:52

The Unsinkable right now in America. I.

3:55

Would say. That many people would

3:57

not have imagined. Say. Ten Years.

4:00

Two. Thousand and Fourteen that in

4:03

the ensuing years. Anti

4:05

Semitic attitudes Intense Anti Jewish

4:07

attitudes would more than double.

4:11

The many people would not

4:13

have the least. that's. The

4:17

number of anti semitic incidents

4:19

would increase by nearly nine

4:21

hundred percent. I think many

4:24

people would not have agreed

4:26

that graduation ceremonies and arguably

4:28

are most prestigious in the

4:31

most expensive universities in America,

4:33

would be disrupted by pro

4:35

Hamas protesters. And

4:37

people would not have believed that.

4:40

For. A Jewish people who

4:42

would be so com, so

4:45

comfortable felt so privileged and

4:47

so secure that suddenly we

4:49

feel uncomfortable we feel are

4:52

at risk and we feel

4:54

vulnerable, insecure and are most

4:56

sacred spaces and are most

4:59

first sono areas that. Is.

5:01

Very different but when I

5:03

wrote the book. I. Don't think

5:05

I would have said that. it was

5:08

gonna happen so fast. I think all

5:10

of us I see what what.a. Down

5:12

Gullans. You. Know her her

5:14

her song was titled October Rain but

5:16

as she performed it at your of

5:19

is when they forced her to she

5:21

read titled at Hurricane This is like

5:23

a hurricane. This is like a tsunami,

5:25

like an Indonesian tsunami and none of

5:27

us saw it coming. quite so hard

5:29

and quite so. Quick Suit: You chose

5:32

Twenty Fourteen as you be a science.

5:34

Because it's ten years after a

5:36

decade. But also you think about

5:38

it now this said last major

5:40

operation. that idea sad in does

5:43

s and there was an uptick

5:45

then. but it's nothing like. What

5:47

we're seeing now. Yeah, that's right.

5:49

I mean, it is simply sacked.

5:52

That spasms of violence in the

5:54

Middle East off catalyze spasms of

5:56

anti semitism in America and in

5:58

Europe. That. Is

6:00

a fact now I will not

6:03

positively will not victim blame. I

6:06

had a prominent a journalist say to me

6:08

the beginning of Twenty Twenty Three as mister

6:10

like January com ela thought I was on

6:12

a plane can it wait a tick off

6:14

and he said you know Jonathan's Bb was

6:16

just reelected. Isn't

6:18

this going to create maria to semitism?

6:21

And I reminded him that in the year

6:24

Twenty Twenty two. When.

6:26

We when Israel had a

6:28

coalition government. Air. Lipide and

6:30

Nepali Bennett and Maravilla sally months where

6:32

bus the most diverse coalition's that's Us

6:34

in Israel's history. Certainly I would argue

6:36

in the history of this region of

6:38

the world. Anti

6:41

Semitism reached the highest.

6:44

Point. We had ever seen in

6:46

America. So let's acknowledge that things

6:48

will happen in the Us. because

6:51

one of the tropes of anti

6:53

semitism is to hold the jews

6:55

collectively responsible. And so we see.

6:58

Anger at a Us policy or anger

7:00

at some kind of spasm of violence

7:02

trigger vandalise. Medicine is alice of a

7:04

Jewish person, but I must be honest

7:07

with you, You know

7:09

what? we don't see? You know

7:11

the day to day frustration with

7:14

Beijing's policies. Don't. People

7:16

don't think it's open season on

7:18

Asian Americans and when that has

7:20

happened in the past, Adiala stood

7:22

out, spoken out against it or

7:24

frustration about Mexico's immigration policies against

7:26

people. Don't say it's to be

7:28

open season on in November. Mexican

7:30

Americans know it thinks it would

7:32

be reasoned response to vandalize a

7:34

Taco Bell. And. When people do

7:37

call out latinos because it identity, we're

7:39

the first call it out. So this

7:41

moments in very challenging. Because.

7:44

You. See. A

7:46

kind of harassment. A

7:49

kind of menacing set

7:51

of activities. That. not

7:54

only don't seem to a lists

7:56

it's the same kind of you

7:58

know content from the non-Jewish community,

8:01

many actually are trying

8:04

to rationalize it, are saying this is

8:06

a reasonable response, saying isn't

8:08

it Israel's fault that this is

8:10

happening? I find that deplorable

8:13

and disgusting. Again,

8:15

you don't blame the victim.

8:19

Doesn't matter what she's wearing. It doesn't

8:21

matter who you love. It doesn't matter

8:24

where you're from. It is wrong, wrong,

8:26

wrong, and yet it happens to us

8:28

as Jews again and again

8:30

and again. Much

8:33

of the statistics that you have

8:35

are self-reported, are they not? What

8:38

do you mean by self-reported? Meaning something happens,

8:40

an incident, an anti-Semitic incident, it could

8:42

be name calling, it could be something

8:45

physical, it happens to a person and

8:47

that person goes and reports the

8:49

statistic, correct? Oh, yes. Well,

8:52

I'll explain how that works. So

8:54

a primary activity of ADL is,

8:56

I mean, we're a data-driven organization

8:58

to begin with. We

9:01

ground our programs and we sort of

9:04

position our policies

9:06

based on facts. This

9:09

is fundamental to our approach,

9:11

not on rhetoric, not on

9:13

abstractions, but rather on the

9:15

physical realities that we are

9:17

able to quantify. In

9:19

the case of incidents, we've been tracking them for about

9:22

45 years. We

9:24

have a network of 25, 26 field offices, about 500

9:26

full-time people. And

9:29

incidents come to us multiple ways. Number

9:32

one, we get incident information from

9:35

law enforcement. ADL is the largest

9:37

trainer of law enforcement in America and extreme has been

9:39

hate between 20, 25,000 officers a year. So

9:42

many police departments or state police

9:45

will report, or even the FBI

9:47

reports information to us. So

9:49

that's – and they're obligated to track it

9:52

by the law. So number one, we get

9:54

information about misdemeanors and felonies from law enforcement.

9:57

Number Two, individuals will contact

10:00

– the be email the

10:02

iphone the filter online form.

10:04

Sometimes that's a victim. Sometimes.

10:07

That might be a friend of our family

10:09

members. some semi be person of authority. And

10:12

in that case, Again, if

10:14

it's a crime, will refer to the police

10:17

but if it's something that falls below the

10:19

threshold of a crime like say your kid

10:21

getting bullied at school for or you were

10:23

discriminated against in the workplace or you know

10:25

you're elderly parent was yelled at and the

10:27

grocery store like those will not right said

10:30

level of the police but we will. Track

10:33

it now and I'll say about

10:35

that is while it is reported

10:37

by individuals, we investigate and verify.

10:40

Everything. That we published. So certainly if

10:42

the F B I gives us data we

10:44

don't double check the F B I. But

10:46

if an individual cause us for sure and

10:49

always as a percentage deposit commence that we

10:51

deemed not to be anti semitic. Aren't

10:53

we spent a lot of time on this

10:56

and that is appointed difference for the A

10:58

the on the Just minibus other communities there

11:00

are other groups that. Published.

11:03

Mean comments and count them without.

11:05

We count real world incidents. The

11:07

other groups that print complaints and

11:09

count them. We don't bring complaints

11:11

with only print. What we can

11:14

substantiate and verifies sore Date is

11:16

very solid. So. How do

11:18

you deal with online seat such as

11:20

the Today Garbage Fear which is now

11:22

called. Excise? Yeah. I

11:24

mean, we are certainly paying a

11:26

lot of attention to hate online.

11:29

Mean. From social media to

11:31

podcasts to streaming services to

11:34

video games A are invite

11:36

a rb Our environments will

11:38

get all of this. We.

11:42

Do different reporting on that.

11:45

I mean, to be told it's nearly

11:47

impossible, or at least we don't have

11:49

the means to affect to be quantified

11:51

all that we are seen, and it's

11:53

even hard to sort of polar a

11:55

representative sample set in as much as

11:57

so much the counter. I mean, Facebook

12:00

for example we tempest and accountants

12:02

an English. So. Light.

12:05

And I know that we don't necessarily have an

12:07

architect of everything happening next. That. Being

12:09

said, We. Do things like

12:11

score. Ah, the platforms

12:14

says me up more specifically

12:16

or videogame platforms as wealth

12:18

and how they're handling holocaust

12:20

denial isn't and how they're

12:23

handling ah online he. We.

12:25

Also survey users to assess. We do

12:28

an annual survey of on my the

12:30

in harassment so he asked her of

12:32

a representative sample of users who

12:34

might identify as. Now

12:36

Black or Latino or a P

12:38

I are Jewish or Muslim or

12:41

women cetera to tell us their

12:43

experiences and based on that said

12:45

to school now says we've chevrolet

12:47

trends every year about how different

12:49

minorities experience he in harassment online.

12:52

See. You have a storm of data

12:54

loss selling this trend. As is. as

12:56

I can tell, Anti Semitism Jets seems

12:58

like every new platform. It's a new

13:01

opportunity for my up and to semitism

13:03

since. Funny say that so I'll tell

13:05

you something. I was recently at an

13:07

event with the time. Sharansky, who is

13:10

one of my heroes is an extraordinary

13:12

person. a prisoner's I and I mean

13:14

a of such courage and strength and

13:16

he a few years ago wrote a

13:19

book where he defined anti some says

13:21

by the three days you know this

13:23

definition soaps it's he talks about. Demonization.

13:27

D. Legitimization and double standards. And

13:29

so he was using this as

13:31

a point of reference relative to

13:34

criticism of Israel. So in criticism

13:36

of Israel, a demonize is Israelis

13:38

are do or zionist or Jewish

13:40

people. That's a tell that it's

13:42

not that standard consists of another

13:45

country. Be. when

13:47

the efforts are to deal to get

13:49

a mile to very premise of the

13:51

state again rather than finding fault with

13:53

particular policies and number three when they

13:55

hold israel to double standards that not

13:57

apply to other countries that might violate

14:00

some norm or have issues with human rights or

14:02

whatever the case may be. So

14:04

that 3D definition he uses to

14:07

describe the kind of contours of

14:11

anti-Israel anti-Semitism,

14:13

anti-Zionistic anti-Semitism. So

14:16

I've been thinking a lot and feel like there's actually a

14:18

4th D. Now I don't know

14:21

if it fits quite as neatly into

14:23

the heuristic that he introduced, but

14:25

I would say the 4th D is democracy. So

14:28

one of the attributes of contemporary anti-Semites

14:30

and contemporary anti-Zionists is

14:33

the exploitation and the abuse of

14:35

democracy with all of its liberties

14:38

and all of its openness to

14:40

undermine, again, the credibility

14:42

of, the legitimacy of, the

14:45

humanity of Zionists, Israelis,

14:47

Jews. And so

14:49

to your question, with every new

14:52

social media platform, even

14:54

before the companies themselves, the services

14:56

have built an effective moderation tools,

14:58

we see an effort to use

15:01

the technology to innovate

15:03

it, if you will, for the purposes

15:05

of spreading anti-Semitic hate. And

15:07

we see this right now with generative

15:10

AI and we saw abuse of chat

15:12

GPT-3 by bad actors who

15:14

tried to use it to spread anti-Semitic

15:17

tropes. We've seen

15:19

the exploitation of some of the voice

15:21

services like Alexa and Google Home and

15:24

Apple Home, again, by

15:27

anti-Semitic people, anti-Semitic agendas to

15:29

promote Holocaust denialism or to

15:31

promote anti-Israel rhetoric, et cetera.

15:34

We live in an open society here in

15:36

the West and I'm including Israel in that.

15:39

We live in places that cherish

15:41

the individual that provide us with,

15:44

like in the United States, a set of

15:46

constitutional rights that

15:49

believe in the utility of the rule of

15:51

law and the importance of fair trial, et

15:53

cetera. And again, so

15:55

often we've seen ideologues with

15:57

an agenda. Use

16:00

those freedoms in service of a

16:03

very unfree agenda and that's

16:05

a deep, deep problem. Is that where

16:08

you're seeing, for example, on the campus

16:10

protest? Sure. So look at the

16:12

campus protest, for example, where again,

16:14

let me be crystal clear, number

16:16

one, it is a

16:18

tragedy every human life that's

16:20

lost in Gaza. Whether

16:23

the number, I mean, I don't believe anything that

16:25

Hamas publishes, I don't

16:27

know, that anyone should. Nonetheless,

16:29

for every innocent life lost, our heart should

16:31

break. If your heart doesn't break at the

16:33

sight of these children getting killed or being

16:35

orphaned or parents losing their children, maybe you

16:38

don't have a heart. We

16:40

can have ferocious Zionism

16:42

and that doesn't mitigate our ability

16:44

to have deep and

16:46

sincere compassion. These go

16:49

together. So I

16:51

think that's a fundamental way that at least I see the world.

16:54

And so on one hand, I appreciate the

16:56

value of protest to call attention to tragedy

16:58

and suffering. At the same

17:00

time, I think you have to be accountable

17:02

for what you protest and the inability of

17:04

these protesters to even acknowledge the

17:06

fact that it is Hamas putting these people

17:08

in harm's way. It is

17:10

Hamas that killed over 1200 people. It

17:13

is Hamas that sees well over 100 people and

17:15

are still holding them hostage. It is two

17:18

hundreds of people still holding 120 some

17:20

of the people hostage. And

17:23

to fail to recognize that and to

17:25

use the campus instead and the freedoms

17:27

that it provides to promote an agenda

17:29

of hate and

17:32

malice, to dehumanize Jews,

17:34

to target and threaten

17:38

in very violative ways, quote

17:41

unquote, Zionists. I mean, if

17:43

you have a protest with a

17:45

sign that says kill the Zionists

17:48

or a sign that says from

17:51

the river to the sea, how

17:53

do you really... I mean, again, you

17:55

could stand there and hold that sign,

17:57

but when your sign promotes genocide and

17:59

murder... Like, is that really

18:01

a peaceful protest? I don't know

18:03

that we quite have the language for that on some

18:05

level. And I know that campus

18:08

free speech laws, campus protest policies were

18:10

designed in the 1970s, comes

18:13

off of the Vietnam War protests with the

18:15

intention of encouraging the ability

18:17

of individual students or faculty to

18:19

express themselves in

18:21

strong ways against policies which they disagreed.

18:25

They were not designed to, again,

18:27

intimidate and menace and

18:30

threaten your classmates. That's

18:33

what's happening now. And so the

18:35

presidents and the deans of these

18:37

institutions have a desire to create

18:39

open environments. And so

18:42

the other side, the pro-Hama side, is

18:44

intentional and deliberate about inverting

18:46

those freedoms in service of an

18:48

unfree agenda and in using

18:50

the liberties they have to threaten the

18:53

person of their classmates. And

18:55

I think it is unconscionable the way

18:57

that that has been allowed because I

18:59

don't think it would be allowed to

19:02

persist the same way if the

19:04

targets were a different community. You

19:07

mentioned a different community. And I

19:09

think it's very difficult for non-Jews

19:11

to understand the connection that many,

19:13

if not most, Jews feel to

19:15

Israel. It's not like

19:18

people of Irish heritage find a connection

19:20

with Ireland. On St. Patrick's

19:22

Day, they might wear their green, but

19:24

it's not the same emotional connection between

19:26

the Jewish people and the state of

19:29

Israel. And I

19:31

always wonder if these protesters who

19:33

obviously live in a society in

19:35

which they've never ever had

19:37

to defend their own homeland, right? They're

19:40

all much too young

19:42

for that. If they can

19:44

even understand what their words

19:46

actually mean to the Jews who hear

19:48

them. So there's a lot. I appreciate the question.

19:50

There's a lot in that. So

19:53

number one, I would say, I really

19:55

can't speak to the Irish people. There's

19:58

40 million Americans. Americans of Irish descent. They're

20:01

a very- I'm one of them. You're one of

20:03

them, really? Sure. I didn't know that.

20:06

They're my dad's side. So it's a very

20:08

consequential diaspora. And many Irish people came to

20:10

the United States or at least left Ireland

20:12

because of the poverty that was so endemic,

20:14

let alone the British kind of repression of

20:16

kind of the Irish rights. And

20:19

I understand that, but I think

20:21

you're also right to point out that for

20:24

Jewish people who were native to

20:26

this place for thousands of years

20:28

but then lived in diaspora and

20:31

were attacked and forcibly

20:33

converted and persecuted

20:36

and murdered, genocided, if you

20:38

will. I mean, everywhere they lived.

20:41

So I think for the Jewish people, there is this

20:43

sort of- this pattern of

20:45

trauma, this pattern of exile,

20:49

this pattern of persecution

20:51

that makes us- I

20:54

think we hear at a different wavelength because

20:56

we're attuned knowing that the other shoe will

20:59

drop at some point. And

21:01

I also think for that reason, Jews see

21:03

Israel for the miracle that it is. I

21:06

mean, look, I'm the grandson of a Holocaust

21:08

survivor from Germany. I'm the husband of a

21:10

political refugee from Iran. And

21:12

whether it was my Jewish wife or my Jewish

21:14

grandfather, they never expected to be an American. But

21:17

at some point, like I said, the other

21:19

shoe drops and we

21:22

find ourselves in these very

21:24

difficult situations. I

21:26

think about where we are today. I mean, like you said, I'm

21:28

sitting here in the offices in

21:31

Jerusalem. Israel is a

21:33

miracle and it's a miracle whose

21:35

roots and Zionism is a miracle,

21:37

but Zionism isn't just a miracle.

21:40

It is essential to our

21:42

Jewish identity. I mean, Abraham

21:44

was the first Zionist. Like

21:46

I'm not some messianic person

21:48

and I don't want to come off

21:50

as some religious zealot, but

21:52

you cannot open a sudour at

21:54

a synagogue in any shul, In

21:57

any Minyan, anywhere on the planet Earth.

22:00

And page after page after page

22:02

after page after page. find prayers

22:04

that are not about Zion or

22:06

Israel or your Russa Lion. It

22:08

is all the say are you

22:11

know when most you remain who

22:13

came back to displace he was

22:15

being a Zionist if you will.

22:17

So I think it is so

22:19

inextricably linked with her identity, so

22:21

invisible to our heritage and to

22:23

our faith and our ritual into

22:26

our tradition. So it's certainly true

22:28

that is a political movement. Thought

22:30

there was a formalized process that began

22:32

with their you Just Add and herself.

22:34

But our roots go much deeper, which

22:36

is why again I come back to

22:38

your point. I think for Jewish people.

22:41

This moment as a fraught

22:43

once because we have a

22:45

pro Hamas minority. And

22:47

it is a minority we should talk about

22:50

Best trying to condition the world to believe

22:52

that we don't have a connection to this

22:54

place, trying to produce duel to believe that

22:56

we are the ones who have made them

22:59

suffer. And. Again, there's lots of

23:01

blame to go around. no shortage

23:03

of blame, but I think it

23:05

is sick and twisted to see

23:08

them try to break the real

23:10

story. To. Shatter the truth.

23:13

And we have to fight that with every

23:15

fiber of our collective. Salon.

23:22

Dear listeners, this has to deal Harper

23:25

and I just decline together we host

23:27

the podcast for Heaven's sake from a

23:29

solemn Harper. this have been

23:31

some of the most challenging days for

23:33

me personally for israel as to the

23:35

jewish people and one of the ways

23:37

in which i've gotten through this is

23:39

that i found solace and meaning to

23:42

discussions with my dear friend and study

23:44

partner to deal heart that and i

23:46

hope that the times of israel listeners

23:48

will join us as we continue to

23:50

tackle the pressing questions facing the jewish

23:52

people fear of for heaven's sake which

23:54

has become the number one judaism podcast

23:56

of the nail i'd also like to

23:58

recommend the identity crisis podcast posted by

24:01

our colleague and friend Yehuda Kurtzer.

24:03

It's a series of fantastic

24:06

conversations with leading figures in

24:08

Jewish life, thought, and culture.

24:10

Now for decades, the Hartman

24:12

Institute has been a preeminent

24:14

destination for Jewish ideas and

24:16

learning. Now you can access

24:19

Hartman Ideas on these chart-topping

24:21

podcasts at shulamhartman.org/podcast or wherever

24:23

you listen to podcasts. We're

24:25

privileged to help guide you

24:27

through these challenging and even

24:29

unsettling times. This

24:36

year is especially fraught, I would imagine,

24:38

for a US jury because of the

24:40

elections coming up in November. And

24:43

of course, there's much criticism laden

24:45

on the Biden administration here and

24:47

there because of the holdup of

24:49

munitions or things of that nature,

24:51

or the pressure on the BB

24:53

government to slow the

24:55

process, the war in Gaza.

24:58

Lots of criticism always, right? But

25:01

I imagined for Jews in the United States, and

25:03

I haven't lived in the United States for 25

25:05

years, so I'm not sure

25:07

here, but I would imagine that having

25:09

this innate support for Israel

25:11

that we discussed, and having

25:14

the desire to do what

25:16

is the best for the country, it's

25:18

probable that this is the hardest

25:20

election perhaps ever

25:22

that American jury has faced. So

25:25

I think there's a lot of truth to the

25:27

way that you kind of laid out that thesis. So

25:30

number one, I think in

25:32

recent years, part of what I would

25:34

attribute the surge of antisemitism to, and

25:36

again, it didn't start in Rafa, right?

25:38

It didn't start in a Khan unit. So it

25:40

didn't even start on October

25:43

the 7th. This has been going on for a while, in

25:45

part, I think, because of the

25:48

normalization of antisemitism and its politicization

25:50

in the

25:52

public conversation in America. So

25:55

when I say it's normalization, I mean,

25:57

we see on the antisemitism stock

26:00

and trade for many on the left

26:03

and anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. We can have

26:05

that conversation if you want, but in

26:07

all of its modern manifestations, if you

26:09

were any confused about this,

26:11

and I could be, I would

26:13

use this exhibit A, October the 7th, anti-Zionism

26:15

is anti-Semitism and yet again it's been normalized

26:18

as if it were a legitimate political kind

26:20

of school of thought. It is not.

26:23

On the left and on the right, things like the

26:25

Great Replacement Theory have become stock and trade

26:28

for many in the GOP, this view that

26:30

there's a cabal of people plotting to, you

26:33

know, commit white genocide. Now it might

26:35

not always be put in exactly those

26:37

terms, just like people try to sanitize

26:39

anti-Zionism in pseudo-academic terms, but both of

26:42

these things rest on

26:44

long-standing anti-Semitic tropes and they

26:46

create an environment where I

26:48

think Jews find themselves in

26:50

the crosshairs. So

26:53

number one, anti-Semitism being normalized and

26:55

being used as a political cudgel

26:58

by both sides, I think

27:00

has contributed to the situation. And

27:03

I mean, you had

27:06

Rashida Tlaib today, or maybe it was

27:08

yesterday, talking about marching, you know,

27:10

on Jerusalem and then I saw Hamas

27:12

making this comment this morning after this

27:16

situation in Raffa that Palestinians need

27:18

to march. I mean... To rise

27:21

up using the same verb as intefada.

27:23

Yeah, I mean, so when I hear

27:25

globalized, when I see signs, I've seen

27:27

signs myself. I've seen them at UCLA,

27:29

I've seen them at Columbia, I've seen

27:31

them at USC, I've seen them at

27:33

Harvard, I've seen them at... I mean,

27:35

I've seen them at all these places,

27:38

with my own eyes, visiting these

27:40

encampments, globalizing intefada. I mean, this

27:42

is a call for violence and

27:44

genocide. So I have

27:47

a big problem with that and yet again,

27:49

I'm worried because in this political year like

27:51

you asked, I think

27:54

what we've already seen on these campuses may be

27:56

a preview for what's going to happen this summer

27:58

at the political conventions, particularly in Chicago. I think

28:00

it's going to be ugly. And then in the fall, and

28:03

it's worth pointing out, Jews

28:06

historically have served a role for the

28:08

non-Jewish world. We have been the

28:11

scapegoats. Part of the

28:14

persistence of antisemitism, and it's described

28:16

as the oldest hatred, is

28:19

because the Jews living typically as

28:21

a small diasporic minority who spoke

28:23

a different language and had different

28:25

rituals and ate different food and

28:27

usually worked amongst themselves. They were

28:29

easy to blame, whether you were

28:31

the crown or the king or

28:33

the emperor or the caliph, the

28:36

church or the mosque. Easy to

28:38

blame the Jews when things went south. They

28:41

were the Jews. And so I

28:43

do worry that this election, which will get

28:45

even more and more fraught in America that's

28:47

incredibly polarized, you're going to see

28:50

the Jews and the Jewish state blamed. The

28:53

Democrats win and they might

28:55

win. I worry that people will, as Donald Trump

28:57

has said, if Jews don't vote for him, they

29:00

hate Israel or he's made comments like that. If

29:03

the Republicans win, I worry that people

29:05

like Rashida Tlaib will blame the president

29:07

for following the Jewish

29:10

state, supporting it and not supporting whatever,

29:12

the Palestinian people or something of that sort. So

29:15

I think that the stakes are high because

29:18

our issues are so much on the

29:20

agenda. But then there's

29:22

the funny thing, despite what

29:24

Rashida Tlaib says, despite

29:27

what the DSA, the Democratic Social of America

29:29

say, there was

29:31

a recent Harvard Harris poll last month asked

29:34

18 to 29 year old Americans, what are your

29:36

top priorities and gave them a list of 16.

29:40

Israel was 15th. 15th.

29:43

I saw another Harvard Harris poll

29:45

and these are very credible polls

29:48

that asked voters whether or not

29:50

this issue would be something that

29:52

would determine their vote in November.

29:55

The overwhelmingly response was no. When

29:58

I say overwhelmingly, I'm not going to say overwhelmingly. I mean

30:01

like all of the people who

30:03

responded. So the

30:05

reality is that, oh, and one more

30:07

poll, I think this was a Pew poll asking

30:10

Americans about who they support in this war.

30:13

80 plus percent support Israel. So

30:16

you might not know this if you read

30:18

certain newspapers or

30:20

at least just looked at the front page. You

30:23

might not know this if you watch certain

30:25

cable news networks. You

30:28

would think that every American is opposed to

30:30

the Jewish state and it's very existent. But

30:33

you know what? It is not a

30:35

... I would say in some ways it's

30:38

not a silent majority. It's a silenced majority

30:40

and we need to give them their

30:42

voice back. We need to help them

30:45

to find the strength to

30:47

say what they believe because

30:50

they know that the nihilism of Hamas,

30:53

the genocidal ambitions of this group

30:56

don't in any way align with American

30:58

values. So they're not just fighting Israel.

31:01

They're fighting all of us as Americans,

31:03

literally because there are still six American

31:05

hostages held in tunnels under Gaza, but

31:07

also sort of metaphorically

31:09

in terms of the values they

31:12

espouse, the values of Hamas, the

31:14

values that the anti-Israel forces espouse

31:17

are inimical to what Americans

31:19

believe, the rule of

31:22

law, right? Justice

31:24

and fair treatment to all, the equality

31:26

of women, the equality

31:28

of LGBTQ people and on and

31:30

on and on. I know

31:32

the American people know this. The

31:34

polling demonstrates it. We've

31:37

got to do a better job

31:39

again of helping the silenced majority

31:42

break their silence and find their voice once and

31:44

for all. Everything you're

31:46

saying makes it even more perplexing to

31:48

me when you see Groups

31:50

of people such as: LGBTQ

31:52

people holding up their flag

31:55

and protesting against the Idf's

31:57

operations in Gaza. But What?

31:59

Even. More concerns me actually

32:01

is when you see Jewish

32:03

Studies Faculty as some of

32:05

these. Great universities are a

32:07

firmer. They get great universities. Protesting

32:10

Alongside these people who are

32:13

essentially protesting against the state

32:15

of. Israel. Will I

32:17

think there couples France in that?

32:19

So number one. I.

32:21

Think we simply and people like me have

32:24

to acknowledge this. Look. At the

32:26

A Deal we deeply believe in diversification.

32:28

Like. Our theory of the case, if

32:31

you will, is that you can try

32:33

to in the short run stop extremists

32:35

from farming juice, and we try to

32:37

avoid and mitigate a threat of literal

32:40

physical violence. And then in the medium

32:42

term we try to change laws. And.

32:45

We try to change norms using

32:47

Congress or the courts on a

32:49

court of public opinion. So.

32:51

In the medium term we can create safer

32:54

and spaces for juice all minorities. but in

32:56

the long run we believe that the only

32:58

way you change hearts and minds and really

33:00

transform the cultures to education. And

33:02

sort of narrative change for think this

33:04

fundamental. So where did

33:07

you in your education is rotten.

33:09

Well I was going to say

33:11

I'm knowing that. I. Think we

33:13

still need to recognize that that belief and

33:15

diverse the education. As he had

33:17

some ways blinded us to the

33:19

challenge presented by how the I

33:21

came to came into shape and

33:23

took form and much of the

33:25

United States. and again I believe

33:28

in diverse education. I think we

33:30

the Jewish community are better for

33:32

sore other marginalized measly us and

33:34

yet. Like this notion

33:36

of forcing all of our kids to

33:38

play in the Oppression Olympics. Are

33:41

you in Team Oppressor? Team

33:43

oppressed that as a bad.

33:45

Losing games for every once

33:47

and this notion of. Equity

33:49

over merit. This. Notion of

33:51

entitlement or opportunities is a bad

33:54

set up for everyone and so

33:56

from my point of view we

33:58

have some saucer. To do as

34:00

a Jewish community leadership's we have some salsa

34:03

to do it. a The else we're looking

34:05

at how we revisit our educational programs, think

34:07

about where's the room for improvement? I

34:09

think we have to be honest about the

34:12

status as part of the problem. Now that

34:14

being said, requested to throw everything out a

34:16

to see. I think it's more men did

34:18

don't and it. Because. Again, I

34:20

think diversification done well can benefit

34:22

our community, benefit the country, but

34:24

clearly it's broken now and that's

34:27

how you get Lgbtq people. Marching.

34:29

For some moss. Or. Somehow

34:31

thinking that a group called Queers

34:34

for Palestine makes any sense when

34:36

they throw. Lgbtq. People off

34:38

the tops of buildings in

34:41

Gaza arm. That. Which

34:43

is why there's no Lgbtq center in

34:45

Gaza city or any of the city's.

34:47

why you have twice Palestinians, some to

34:50

sexual orientation have to come to wait

34:52

for it. Israel. Bombs.

34:55

Despite. Whatever their national kind of

34:57

identity might be. The. Matter

34:59

how patriotic they feel, they cannot the

35:01

killer shop as their full selves. So

35:05

I sell this because A D

35:07

I agenda. Which.

35:09

Posits at all Jews are oppressors as

35:11

at all Israelis are colonizers would have

35:13

other fictions, creates an environment in which

35:16

young people don't get a full understanding

35:18

of the facts as they are and

35:20

that sort of by now and damaged

35:22

by the way. not just in D

35:25

I programs are causing vs on the

35:27

radio a study This Again, we're very

35:29

data driven. We've done our own surveys.

35:31

We found that something like eighty four

35:34

percent of students who dundee guy training

35:36

at universities tell us no exposure to

35:38

anti semitism. No exposure to assist

35:40

spite of at the jews of the

35:42

most people he attacked with this minority

35:45

in the United States so that's broken

35:47

and that needs to be fixed. We

35:49

need to help people appreciate and understand

35:51

that intersectionality as it concept. I mean

35:53

I think it's make sense do unto

35:56

others. That. was us right that's

35:58

like the lesson of the tom i

36:00

think that's right by Koop, oh, Hillel

36:02

said that right. It's the essential lesson

36:04

that Talmud is this idea and

36:07

yet or the Torah and yet at the same time,

36:10

we need to revisit this dramatically. But

36:13

I also think again back to where we have

36:16

to take some ownership. I think

36:18

we as Jews also need

36:20

to be a little less, we

36:22

need to be principled and

36:24

yet less precious. So

36:27

what I mean by that is I

36:29

believe deeply profoundly in the

36:31

importance of partnerships and

36:33

I believe and I've talked many times publicly

36:36

about council culture, not cancel culture. I don't

36:38

believe in cancel culture. I think

36:40

when someone gets it wrong, our job is to help

36:42

them get it right. I

36:44

don't think it's our job to expect people

36:47

to come over to our side. I think

36:49

we forgot how we can meet people halfway

36:51

without again surrendering our principles, without somehow abandoning

36:53

our values and yet I think at

36:55

the same time, I think we as

36:57

a Jewish community need to recognize that we have many

36:59

more friends if we're willing to embrace them and accept

37:01

them. Again, that doesn't mean we

37:04

should abandon our principles. My one rule

37:06

is I won't humanize people who dehumanize

37:08

others, right? So I won't, I

37:11

will work with anyone as long as again, they

37:13

don't dehumanize others. If you dehumanize, you

37:15

know, LGBTQ people, I don't want to work with you. If

37:17

you dehumanize Zionists, I don't want to work with you. If

37:19

you dehumanize black people, I don't want to work with you.

37:22

That being said, I think we

37:25

need to really open our arms to all the people

37:27

who want to work with us, you

37:29

know, whether it's in the Christian

37:31

community, in the Hindu community, parts

37:34

of the Muslim community. Like I

37:36

think if we avail ourselves, again,

37:40

with strong principles and open hearts, I

37:42

think a lot more is possible than

37:44

we may actually even realize. I

37:46

really like your idea of council

37:49

culture versus cancel culture. And especially

37:51

since this week, we're hearing reports

37:53

out of a rabbinical seminary in

37:55

which a couple of students who

37:57

said that they were Zionists were

38:00

basically driven out of the rabbinical

38:02

world. And the rabbinical, is this the reconstructionist bit

38:04

that I read? I wasn't going to name it,

38:06

but yes, it is the reconstructionist. Look, they need

38:08

to be accountable for the positions they take. And

38:10

I think I read it in TOI. By

38:13

the way, did I read it in TOI? I think in

38:15

the forward. Oh, and maybe the forward. But

38:18

I will say that I check the Times

38:20

of Israel multiple times a day. So here's

38:22

my plug for all of you who aren't

38:24

yet like paid subscribers. I have not been

38:26

asked to do this, but it is such

38:28

an invaluable source of information about Israel in

38:30

the broader Jewish world. Call HaKavod for

38:32

what you and David have done here. It's really

38:35

a really wonderful and really

38:37

valuable resource. Takes the village. Takes

38:39

the village, that's fair. So that

38:41

being said, and you

38:45

alluded to this before about the Jewish studies professors.

38:49

You know, there's that old adage to Jews, three

38:51

opinions, right? That's true.

38:54

And I don't know if there is

38:56

a more self-doubting, self-questioning

39:01

people in the world, in

39:03

the history of the world than Jewish people. So

39:05

should it surprise us that

39:08

Jews question our own identity and

39:10

question our own actions with like

39:12

tremendous intensity? I think it's very

39:14

Jewish thing to do. And

39:17

I will also say that the other side with

39:21

great passion tokenizes the Jewish

39:23

people among their midst. Again,

39:26

if you just read the New York

39:28

Times, you would think because every article

39:30

that talks about Israel, they seem to

39:32

be able to find a Jewish anti-Zionist

39:34

to quote. Like it is remarkable. It

39:36

must be an editorial requirement because I

39:38

see it with such frequency legitimizing

39:41

what is a marginal,

39:43

marginal tiny segment of our

39:46

community. Again, the overwhelming number

39:48

of Jews are strongly

39:50

Zionist. And even those who ended strongly Zionist,

39:52

I think it's hard pressed to think of

39:54

people as, you know, I want nothing to

39:56

do with it. Like that just isn't the

39:58

case. Maybe there are

40:00

those that don't want to live there, I don't

40:03

want to do with any family there, and

40:05

I think it shouldn't exist. That isn't a real

40:08

thing except for a

40:10

handful of academics, some

40:12

students, and yet somehow

40:15

the insistence on members

40:17

of the press to parade these

40:19

people out there, falling right

40:21

into the pro-Hamas trap. I love

40:23

the satyrs at the encampments, the

40:25

satyrs that spell things

40:27

wrong and have the ritual

40:30

wrong, it's really quite profane,

40:32

like abusing these religious symbols for

40:35

their political purposes. While

40:39

I would say it pains me too when I see some

40:41

of those names, some of those faces, I

40:43

would really just say they don't represent the

40:45

majority of our community at all. I

40:49

want to use council culture, not cancel culture,

40:51

but if you dehumanize people because there's Zionists,

40:53

that's the line for me. At

40:56

that point, when there's a

40:58

line crossed, this is where I think the

41:00

college president got it wrong, when they

41:03

cross a line knowingly, intentionally,

41:05

and incite violence against their

41:08

classmates, and with,

41:10

again, in a deliberate way, menace them

41:12

and prevent them from learning. I

41:14

don't think you need to give them concessions, I

41:16

think you need to give them consequences. Well,

41:20

Jonathan, really an eye-opening conversation, I

41:22

really appreciate it. I'm very

41:24

kind of you, like I said, I'm a big TOI fan, so

41:26

it's a treat for me to be here. Thank

41:28

you. Thanks for

41:31

listening to the Times of Israel's daily

41:33

briefing. Please check out another installment

41:35

tomorrow. This episode was produced by

41:37

the Podwaves. If you have

41:39

any questions or comments about this

41:41

or any other episode, please drop

41:44

us an email to podcastattimesofisrael.com. Until

41:46

tomorrow, Shalom. you