0:01

Ted Audio Collective Hello

0:12

there, this is Chris Anderson. Welcome to

0:14

the Ted interview. In

0:16

this season of the Ted interview, we're diving

0:18

into an idea I've become obsessed by infectious

0:22

generosity. So far in

0:24

the season, we've learned about generosity through the lens

0:26

of psychology, art, philanthropy,

0:28

and online community building.

0:31

Today, we're focusing on the role

0:34

that business might play. Now,

0:37

many people's reactions to business, certainly

0:39

to capitalism in general, is that

0:41

it's the antithesis to generosity.

0:43

It's all about greed, about

0:46

maximizing shareholder returns. But

0:49

I've become intrigued by the growing number

0:51

of voices out there, seeing a different

0:53

possibility for business. I've learned

0:55

that there are compelling ways in which

0:57

businesses can actually embrace generosity in various

1:00

different forms and still thrive. Our

1:03

guest today has been a pioneer in this way

1:05

of thinking. He's Hamdi

1:08

Uluqayah, the founder of Chobani,

1:10

a wildly successful yogurt company.

1:14

Hamdi attributes that success in large

1:16

part to the fact that he's

1:18

anchored his company around kindness, both

1:20

to his employees and to the

1:22

community at large. He came

1:25

and spoke at Ted a few years

1:27

ago outlining what he called the anti-CEO

1:29

playbook, his guidelines for

1:31

turning traditional business thinking on its head.

1:35

So I honestly can't wait to dig

1:37

into every aspect of this. I

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BetterHelp, help.com slash

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TED interview. Canva

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presents stories to keep you

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at canva.com, designed for

3:03

work. Handi

3:08

Ulukaya. Welcome to the TED interview.

3:10

Thank you, Chris. Now, Handi, it's

3:13

pretty clear from your life story that you have a strong moral

3:15

code. Where

3:18

did that come from? Thank you. I come

3:20

from the northeastern part of Turkey,

3:22

Chris. And I guess even

3:24

today, there's not a date that I don't go

3:26

back in my mind to where I grow up.

3:29

Northeast of Turkey, mountainous rivers, Euphrates

3:32

River starts up there. I'd say

3:35

if you live in the U.S., Colorado climate,

3:38

and we are traditional mass,

3:40

so tribal lifestyle, we come

3:43

down to town for the

3:46

harshness of winter and

3:48

stay in town and protect

3:50

the animals. That's my background,

3:52

tribal. That's where I grew up.

3:55

But in there, there was a lifestyle, meaning when

3:57

you are up in the mountains, you

3:59

really don't have... You don't have police,

4:01

you don't have judges, you don't have

4:03

protections. So there are social

4:05

norms that are extremely effective on how

4:08

order continues in that living. So

4:11

the honor, dignity, the

4:14

trust awards, the social controls

4:16

were very, very live and

4:19

active. Especially when I grew

4:21

up, really wealth didn't matter

4:23

much. What matters

4:25

the most is the respect, the value,

4:27

the other human qualities that you had.

4:30

Collectively everyone gave you that kind of respect.

4:33

I've noticed in a lot of parts of the

4:35

world where there are harsh living conditions, that

4:38

hospitality becomes an absolutely core

4:40

value. I'm guessing that there are quite strong...

4:43

Very strong. ...visions there of just

4:45

breaking bread with each other and building relationships this

4:47

way. Exactly. These are very powerful.

4:49

I think all throughout the humanity, everywhere you

4:51

go, these are known values. The

4:54

question is, okay, these are

4:56

ordinary people, they're farmers, they're shepherds.

5:00

I guess there's not a capitalism

5:02

alive in there, right? I hate

5:04

it. I never thought, even when

5:06

I arrived to the US, I never thought I

5:08

would be in the field of business. I literally

5:10

hated it. Living in a

5:12

Kurdish community, knowing that certain

5:15

problems we are facing in

5:17

society while I was in Turkey and

5:19

knowing what's happening globally, third world countries and

5:22

poverty and all that kind of stuff. It

5:24

was a common belief, and I think there is

5:27

truth to it, that business was for us to

5:29

blame. So your

5:32

story ended up taking

5:34

a different approach to business. I mean, you described in

5:36

your TED Talk how you were

5:38

in upstate New York, you heard

5:40

about this abandoned yogurt factory that

5:42

had been closed down. And for some

5:44

mad reason, you decided you would go

5:46

and check it out. Just

5:49

give us a few highlights from

5:51

that story that led to your

5:53

founding Chobani. I am here right

5:55

now in very close to that factory, five minutes

5:57

from here. I'm, it was an ad. And

6:00

the ad said, fully equipped

6:03

yogurt plant for sale. And

6:05

I am making a small cheese factory, making

6:07

some feta cheese in about an hour and

6:09

a half from where the factory was. For

6:13

some reason, I went back to the garbage, picked it

6:16

up, written it again, called the

6:18

numbers and the next day, went to

6:20

the factory. And I

6:22

don't know what was, you know, what

6:24

was calling me. I think that headline,

6:27

fully equipped yogurt plant for sale,

6:31

it's a sad statement, abandoning.

6:33

It's like leaving. And I have seen this before

6:35

a lot, you know, in my previous lives. Went

6:39

in there and the

6:41

sadness that sometimes I lived in

6:43

the small

6:45

town I grew up. Like

6:47

somebody died in the Euphrates River

6:50

and there's something in the air.

6:52

And for weeks, it's

6:54

always there. There's this heavy sadness in the

6:56

air. Some important

6:58

family left. I

7:01

felt the same energy when I arrived to this

7:03

town and so that factory.

7:05

And you realize that this plant is

7:07

getting closed and there are about

7:09

55 factory workers that worked in

7:12

that factory. It used to be maybe 200, 250,

7:14

but this is the tail end of it. And

7:19

they are closing the factory and that's in the

7:21

air. It's that heaviness, that sadness in the air.

7:24

And I'm walking the factory and it

7:27

is a ruin. It is like 100 years old. I don't know,

7:29

70, 80. And

7:31

you're going through all these labyrinths and

7:33

thick walls and the equipment, one after

7:36

another one. And the person who

7:38

was showing me is 25 years there. But

7:41

the one clear feeling

7:43

came out of me after that is

7:46

anger. Somebody's just leaving

7:48

it. Somebody's just shutting it down. Now

7:51

I'm not, I just got there. I'm

7:53

not angry because of them, but I'm just seeing it

7:55

exactly the same thing that what I would see when

7:58

I grew up and making the connection. and

8:00

I'm living the same emotion. And again, at the same

8:02

time, I'm looking at it, like there are

8:04

a lot of good things in here. You know,

8:07

these people are still working their best in

8:09

the last days to close this place in a, you know,

8:11

in a dignity way. I said, wow,

8:13

if these people are closing this way, what if

8:15

they would start this? What would they do? So

8:18

without any experience of running a big business,

8:21

or really even a super clear vision about what this

8:24

might be, you just felt that

8:26

you wanted to go for this, and you somehow raised

8:28

some money to actually buy this thing. I mean, they

8:30

weren't selling it for very expensively, right, because it was

8:32

being shut down. Yeah, so the guy said,

8:34

it's $700,000 as in real estate, and

8:37

I'm leaving from there, and the minute

8:39

I left, I called the person,

8:41

I called my attorney, it was attorney in town,

8:43

and I said, Mario, this place,

8:46

I really want to buy it. I

8:48

think I can do something with this. The

8:51

guy said to me, the

8:53

largest food company in the world

8:57

is closing this place, and

8:59

they're getting out of yogurt business. So he said, who the hell

9:01

are you? What do you think you are? He even

9:04

used some harsh words. Then you

9:06

could do something with this. The second thing he

9:08

said, you don't have the money. I mean, you

9:10

haven't even paid me in the last six months.

9:12

And these are two crazy things.

9:15

About a couple of months later, I had this key

9:17

in this place. And this is

9:19

now these four factory workers in there

9:21

and myself, this old

9:23

broken place, quiet and across the

9:25

street. There is a bikers

9:27

bar, and they're making all kinds of jokes,

9:30

who these crazy people are. And

9:32

it's lovely. I knew I would make yogurt, but not

9:35

more than that. I mean, at some point, you

9:37

must have had an idea that the yogurt

9:40

you grew up with, in your

9:42

opinion, tasted a lot better. Oh, yeah,

9:45

and then most yogurt. This

9:48

is lousy yogurt. And if

9:51

I make the one that I grew up with, I

9:53

am 100% sure they will love it. There's no way.

9:56

I was very convinced that, yeah, they had yogurt better.

9:58

I mean, most Americans, they have yogurt better. yogurt

10:00

has a lot of sugar in it, right? When

10:18

I started, it was average yogurt cup

10:20

would have almost 40 grams sugar. 40 grams.

10:22

That's like what? Seven or eight

10:25

teaspoons, right? Or more? Yeah,

10:27

I would throw these about 10 sugar

10:29

tubes. It's crazy. You had an

10:31

inkling that there might be a better way to make yogurt

10:33

and you kind of fell in love with these people it

10:35

seems like a bit. Like you were angry that they'd been

10:38

let go and started

10:40

to work with them to figure

10:43

out what you might do. And was there a key, aha

10:47

moment where you suddenly thought, wait a sec,

10:49

we actually can do something here? But

10:51

I got the key for the place that was

10:53

a manager. I said, if I wanted to turn

10:56

this place back on, what

10:58

do you think I need? He says, well, you need

11:00

this four people because there's no manuals. These

11:02

are the four people they can turn

11:05

this place back on because they know where

11:07

the switches are. I said, okay, so we hired those

11:09

four people. I said to them,

11:11

would you join us? And the

11:14

first board meeting we had

11:16

was Mike is the maintenance

11:18

guy who retired and came back.

11:20

Rich is the production guy. Maria

11:23

has been there on answering calls and getting

11:25

all this needed stuff for the last

11:27

20 years. And Frank, the

11:29

wastewater guy and myself, we're sitting

11:31

around the table and he

11:33

said, what are we going to do next? So

11:36

now these are the guys, it's

11:39

something horrible happened to them. The

11:41

community is upside down. They're looking

11:43

at this Turkish guy and doesn't

11:45

seem like he's got a lot of money. It doesn't seem

11:48

like he has a lot of experiences and they're going to

11:50

make a life decision based

11:52

on how they see me

11:54

doing this. And

11:56

I told them, we're going to go to the hardware store

11:58

and we're going to buy something. paints and we're going to

12:00

paint the wall outside. And

12:03

the guy said, Hamdi, we have not painted those walls

12:05

for the last 20 years. And

12:07

basically he was saying that, do you have any

12:09

other ideas than these ideas? I

12:13

think one of the biggest moments for

12:15

us, we painted those walls outside.

12:18

I don't know. In that moment, that

12:21

just came to me. Why did that work?

12:23

Was it just the bonding between you that

12:25

happened as a result of the painting or

12:27

was there almost a statement of intent

12:29

by saying, we are not going to be an old beaten

12:31

up factory. We're going to be a

12:33

fantastic, modern, gleaming, beautiful

12:36

plant. That very statement,

12:38

in a way, became so

12:41

fulfilling. You know, that

12:43

was all for me. I

12:45

think that was all for me. I wasn't trying

12:47

to make a statement to those four people there.

12:49

They needed something really dramatic for them to be

12:51

convinced that this thing is going to go in

12:53

the right place. I think

12:55

I was making those to myself and basically saying,

12:57

I know I'm going to make this place work.

13:00

I know this is going to work or I'm good, but

13:02

I want to make sure that the standards of this place

13:05

are in this high quality. And

13:08

the second dimension of it came to me

13:11

later on is, I might

13:13

not have all the answers, but

13:15

I'm not going to sit around and wonder and be

13:17

sorry for myself and worry. I'm just going to do

13:19

something that I know what to do at that moment.

13:22

And that was one of the things that

13:24

came to my mind, to paint. And basically

13:26

that became a chowani thing, this is less

13:28

stuff painting the walls. The challenges

13:30

that we are facing is massive. The

13:33

answers we don't have. And

13:36

the only way to go at it, the

13:38

only way to start to fix it or begin

13:40

to have a solution is you

13:43

start from somewhere. And presumably at

13:45

some point you tried using the equipment that

13:47

was in there to see if you could

13:49

make a different kind of yogurt, the thicker,

13:51

less sweet version that you liked. How long

13:53

did that take? And was there a moment

13:55

there when you had people taste this yogurt

13:57

where they go, we like this a lot?

14:00

lot. Yeah, that was

14:02

2007. Expo West.

14:05

I have a 10 by 10 boots. And I'm

14:07

showing this first time to the world. And

14:10

in the March of 2007, people

14:13

said, We love this a lot. Can we get

14:15

it? And that

14:18

moment, I said, Okay, product

14:21

worked. Now how are we gonna make

14:23

this as a business for so that's the

14:25

last 2007 by 2012, you had a billion sales. Incredible.

14:32

I mean, most people in that situation

14:34

will be obsessed with one thing only,

14:36

which is trying to keep that growth

14:38

happening and building. But at some point,

14:40

you decided that key to what

14:42

you were doing was to, for want

14:46

of a better word, be generous to your employees

14:48

to talk about who you hired,

14:51

how much you paid them and why that

14:53

mattered to you. So we are the smallest

14:55

county in New York State is

14:57

the more distance from anywhere in the sense of New

14:59

York. And half an

15:01

hour away from where we are, it's

15:04

Cooperstown. Cooperstown is baseball Hall of

15:06

Fame, a very important small town

15:08

in America. And when you

15:10

go there, you see everything is

15:13

the most beautiful form, right? The children

15:15

comes from all across the country, there's

15:17

baseball fields, they're all colored and nightlights

15:20

and stores and everything is beautiful.

15:22

And then you go half an

15:24

hour east of that place, you

15:26

know, the kids are playing their mud, houses

15:30

are for sales, businesses are being

15:32

shut down. And that's,

15:34

that's the crack. That's the distance

15:37

between these two places. And when

15:39

I started, I always

15:41

thought, if the

15:43

plant comes up, and if people

15:46

come and work, and if the income gets

15:48

in, if the contractors has jobs, and

15:51

working around the plant, and then

15:53

everything could be lifted in these places, and

15:55

it could get closer to the next town.

15:58

The first thing came to me is

16:01

when Cassie, my sister at the time, said,

16:04

how many, the town is looking for

16:06

money to fix the little league field?

16:09

And she showed me some pictures. The pictures, there's no

16:11

field, it's just a grass and basically

16:13

mud. The

16:15

first project I did is I

16:17

said, what if we come

16:20

together and we design a field

16:22

and build the little league field, maybe the one

16:24

even better than Kupusdav, the lights and all that

16:26

kind of stuff. The

16:28

beginning of everything was building that

16:30

field. So basically, electricians, the earth

16:33

movers, the construction people, everybody come

16:35

together, little businesses in the community,

16:37

myself. And we

16:40

design, built this little

16:42

league field for the children of

16:44

that town. And

16:46

they had all the uniforms and they

16:48

had retired baseball players came in. And

16:50

it was the first time anyone has

16:52

ever asked me to sign something

16:55

for them. And I don't realize the kids were

16:57

asking me to sign their jerseys. And

16:59

it was one of the most amazing moment

17:02

of my life, seeing those children playing

17:04

in that field in a night time

17:06

with the lights and their parents proudly

17:08

watching. And

17:10

it was the first time I'd realized the power of

17:12

business. So very early

17:15

in the company, it wasn't like you

17:17

were rolling in profits then? No, no,

17:19

no. But was there something in

17:21

your head of saying, look, all of this fits

17:23

together, that if I'm to recruit the people I

17:25

want, if they're to be motivated the way I

17:27

want them to, it's all part

17:29

of bringing life back to this

17:32

community, that it's all connected. And

17:35

you can make sparks like this every day

17:37

than I believe in this business. Like

17:39

I was very convinced that this was not

17:41

a side thing. But

17:43

moments like this, you can

17:45

experience larger, small, every

17:47

day while you're making this yogurt, while you're

17:50

making conducting this business. And that was very

17:52

eye-opening to me. I didn't realize Until

17:55

that moment that this is what I was going

17:57

to get addicted to. There's

18:00

been an expanded into all kinds of the mess

18:02

of the employees that for example I always been.

18:05

Assumed a passion about the working

18:07

class to have. Access

18:09

to bastards been generated by businesses like

18:11

this shouldn't be ali. small portion of

18:14

the people gets on the benefits. But.

18:17

I am new and I don't know

18:19

if this is gonna be successful. I

18:21

don't want to give so much hope

18:23

to the people than later on become

18:25

a burden on this is amazing you

18:27

know on taking risks but when I

18:29

felt like he was perfect and instead

18:31

of made has for almost five years,

18:33

six years and finally as a non

18:35

thus today's ten percent of Two Bodies

18:37

says is divided. Among all

18:39

the employees, company and the point I

18:42

was making that is this another guests

18:44

This is a recognition. What?

18:47

You know, but as long as

18:49

people who work with me or this

18:51

times. Really? Built

18:53

it with me cause I was

18:55

there was missing decision I was

18:57

leaving the company but without all

19:00

his pupils have work and sacrifice

19:02

wouldn't be possible for me. It

19:04

was just a recognition the elevated

19:06

on the lever expanding our workforce.

19:09

I. Think I was the second. Person.

19:12

In the community with accept after Frank

19:14

was from Sicily. And the had

19:16

never exposed to animal from aside and in

19:18

Utica is in. Others tell about forty five

19:20

minutes from us here and that's a place

19:23

where the refugees been settles and they will

19:25

have a hard time finding jobs. And.

19:28

Been expanding been hiding. then I

19:30

went to the deputy sensors and

19:32

deaths that it's my journey be

19:34

hiding migrants and refugees that settles

19:36

and. My. That have the language

19:39

or transportation those job training. But.

19:41

the at finding a way to

19:44

include them in the growth of

19:46

the business twenty five thirty percent

19:48

of the employees of so by

19:51

the be songs refugees and migrants

19:53

and basically deaths human dimension meaning

19:55

all employees all communities within two

19:58

by list of raided added areas,

20:00

mainly think that this impact can go a

20:03

little bit wider and larger and later on

20:05

I start putting myself into output too.

20:09

So for most business leaders and the

20:11

kind of circumstances you're in, in fact

20:13

most business leaders in general might argue

20:15

that your hiring policy should be to

20:17

pay people the least

20:19

you can compatible with being able to hire

20:21

the right people. Pay what the market demands

20:24

so to speak. In the

20:27

case of manufacturing workers where you were

20:29

that would typically have meant paying people

20:31

at almost minimum wage, in

20:33

some cases people got away with paying less. What

20:36

was your strategy and why wasn't that

20:38

your strategy? Yeah, the people elements in

20:41

the business as an investment because

20:43

anytime you look at paying

20:45

people less, you know,

20:47

health business, that's not the right way to approach

20:49

you. You want to pay your business people

20:52

right, train them right, give

20:54

them autonomy to be able to make decisions

20:56

and that's the participation of the business and

20:59

that's how much it affected the business. I

21:01

believe in that in the number one, especially when

21:03

you're making food. Food

21:06

is people are making with their hands the emotions,

21:08

who they are, how they feel, how much attention

21:10

they pay and loyalty and all that kind of

21:12

stuff. I really didn't do

21:14

it, this is good for business perspective.

21:17

If I have a job, a decent job,

21:19

that should be a source of me

21:22

having a good human living with my

21:24

family, with my children and I shouldn't

21:26

be worrying about if I'm going to

21:28

make the end of the week

21:30

or end of the month with this. It's

21:33

basically that consciousness because I come

21:35

from that background and every calculation

21:37

you make and I made at

21:39

the time is okay, but how

21:41

do I retire? How

21:43

do I retire? How do I pay for my kid's college

21:45

tuition? How do I take care of if somebody gets sick?

21:48

What do I do? If

21:50

you make a simple five minutes, ten minutes

21:52

calculation, there is no way you

21:55

have an answer. There's no way. You have

21:57

to come up with a solution. Basically my solution was...

22:00

is if I can avoid having

22:02

partners, because then it's

22:04

only my decision. It's not anybody else's decision.

22:07

So for me, the board was

22:09

me, myself and

22:12

I, and all that, my decision I

22:14

made in a flash, you know, I

22:16

undergo how I make the food, what

22:18

kind of impact and what we do

22:20

in society and community, that would be

22:23

my decision, along with the executive team,

22:25

not necessarily outside. So

22:27

what I hear you saying there is that if

22:29

someone out there is listening and they want to

22:31

build a business that is anchored

22:33

in human values and is as

22:35

generous as possible to both employees

22:38

and maybe the community, be

22:40

careful who your investors are, who your

22:42

partners are. Yes. That may make it very hard

22:44

for you to realize that vision. You're

22:57

growing a business and you can't afford to

22:59

slow down. If anything, you could probably use

23:02

a few more hours in the day. That's

23:04

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presents unexplained appearances. It was

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23:41

brand. Wait, did that agenda

23:43

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23:46

making this unexplainable case unexplainable.

23:49

It's Canva's AI tool. I

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can generate slides and words in seconds.

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Really? The Real mystery

23:55

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now. canva.com Designed for work. Many.

24:04

People can't. Go. To business

24:06

without bringing in other investors and

24:08

partners and his seat am do

24:10

that. You created this anti Cel

24:12

playbook where if I understood it

24:15

right from what you said that

24:17

the tedtalk, it was that if

24:19

you'd see people well if we

24:21

give them ownership is your fare

24:23

as employer, You'll certainly get a

24:26

return on that kindness. Yes, I.

24:28

Mean, do you really believe that? Is that

24:30

what he took his? That's true. Then Ultimately,

24:33

It should be possible to persuade.

24:35

Other investors for example. But this

24:37

is and the moment and approach

24:39

to business. How confident I do

24:41

that? It's true and just true

24:43

in the set a specific circumstances

24:45

zones, the type of business he

24:48

built here. But it can be

24:50

true more brought in business. I.

24:52

Believe in discourse. I did the. In

24:55

every suddenly but. And. If

24:58

it's done, Really

25:00

meaningful. The are making yogurt and

25:02

providing good food for people by

25:04

the same time and missing a

25:06

chance. I'm I'm I'm proud of

25:09

that. Something. Biggest something

25:11

great and that is. I'm so

25:13

proud that this also and this

25:15

in my life and automation and

25:17

I consider my family and it's

25:19

extensive my community this of belonging

25:22

and. That. Doesn't

25:24

happen. I'm going to maximise

25:26

shareholders prefer. Clinton. Was

25:28

interesting to me is that in many ways

25:30

it's a traditional business he would apply to

25:33

got people producing a product. In some ways

25:35

when I've I've argued in my book the

25:37

in knowledge companies. it's even easier to make

25:39

this point because Valley was created. Very

25:42

clearly by brilliant minds

25:44

of. Your. People. Isn't

25:47

they're not inspired by your

25:49

company's mission? It's I think

25:51

your company is basically exploitative.

25:53

The best of us people

25:55

are likely to leave and

25:57

so. He. as business if

25:59

you like depends more and more on

26:01

the non-material value creation,

26:04

that it should be possible to make this argument

26:06

land even more powerfully. And the fact

26:08

that you've been able to make it

26:10

land in a situation where many of

26:12

your employees would, in other circumstances, be

26:14

paid minimum wage, this is

26:17

very, very helpful. How have

26:19

your discussions gone with other people? Have you

26:21

been able to persuade what a CEO playbook

26:23

should look like? Yeah. I

26:25

mean, the biggest

26:27

response, usually from the distance, would be,

26:29

hey, it's easy to do it in

26:31

a private environment. Let

26:34

me see how you do it in a public

26:36

company environment. The other one is, it's easy to

26:38

do it when you're small. I mean, Chobani

26:40

is not that small anymore. But

26:43

compared to hundreds of billions of dollars

26:45

company, it's a smaller company, of course.

26:48

This idea of social

26:50

enterprise, generous business, stakeholder

26:53

business model, not shareholders,

26:56

conscious capitalism. This has

26:59

been explored in the last, I don't know, maybe

27:01

the last 10 years in a very high level,

27:03

just before pandemic was getting into the

27:05

height of it. And it

27:07

is new. People are wondering

27:10

around this, what's the role of business? What

27:12

kind of businesses should we be building? What kind of

27:15

businesses should we value? And based on what, you

27:17

look at it, the stock market is good,

27:19

economy is good, everything is good. And every

27:22

time you get to a tough times, this

27:24

idea just run away. So it hasn't survived

27:26

100% Chris, that

27:29

people are convinced as

27:32

a shareholder or board member,

27:34

that companies committing to

27:37

humanity at large, or society, or

27:40

employees, and making

27:42

that is extreme priority. And in

27:44

the end, that being priority means

27:47

the business success, return for the

27:49

shareholders and innovations and growth, and

27:51

et cetera, et cetera. That

27:54

idea hasn't been proven yet. You've

27:58

had a chance to test some of your... thinking

28:00

in another company, you've recently

28:02

acquired a coffee company.

28:04

Tell us about that and whether you've been

28:06

able to apply some of your principles and

28:09

whether there's been any sign that that has

28:11

worked. It's called Lacollom, Lacollom Coffee. It's a

28:13

smaller, 30 years old. I just received it

28:15

to Chobani now. We've adjusted

28:18

all the employees and baristas

28:20

wages to Chobani level. Amazing

28:23

brands, massive, massive

28:26

knowledge on coffee and sourcing. This is

28:28

another opportunity for us, something that I

28:30

haven't done before. Again, we

28:33

are in

28:35

a very luxurious place. We as a

28:37

company today, for example, probably

28:40

I would put Chobani's performance against

28:42

any CPG company from the growth,

28:44

speed of innovation. We make 100%

28:47

of our product ourselves from the

28:49

economic margins and all that kind of stuff. We

28:52

would be probably in part of any other successful company that

28:54

you would think of. What are

28:56

your total sales now? Almost 3

28:58

billion. Not

29:00

a small. Not small anymore.

29:03

Basically, it's very successful. Because

29:07

of its early decisions that we made, let's paint

29:09

the walls, let's build a little field, and let's

29:11

make sure that other people can come join us

29:14

and let's make sure that this company is not

29:16

about maximizing profit

29:18

and let's bring

29:21

goodness to people's life. You

29:23

talk in your anti-CEO playbook about

29:25

a three-pronged strategy of doing right

29:27

with your people, with your community,

29:29

and with product. I'm guessing for

29:32

some of the companies, you'd extend

29:34

that idea of doing right by

29:36

your community to things like environmental

29:39

responsibility, don't exploit the planet,

29:41

those kinds of things. 100%, yeah. There's

29:44

a lot of anger right now in America

29:47

about undocumented workers. Are

29:50

people missing something in how they should think

29:52

about what they can bring to the

29:54

country? I've been in this for

29:56

a while with refugees, as you know,

29:58

after I started. That would you work. In

30:01

the company and then southern tents tend

30:03

to the nonprofit organization. what's the on

30:06

behalf of refugees? Yes, So the basic

30:08

idea is in their millions of refugees

30:10

around the walls, some of them legally

30:12

settled in Us, some of them Europe,

30:15

some them, and of other parts of

30:17

the world. and. When. They

30:19

settled. Or moved

30:22

to say see this tax the

30:24

basically stuck in towns and villages

30:26

or in the camps an. Incursion.

30:30

Companies to hire them as long as

30:32

they have like the was. So that's

30:35

what happened to survive in this was

30:37

the southern tenth and senses now organize

30:39

about fourteen countries over unloads and. The

30:43

own business about over four hundred

30:45

to the multinational companies as members

30:47

an old we do is practice

30:49

hiding training, advocating for refugees whether

30:52

they are. So that's basically it's

30:54

happen to have been in Buffalo.

30:56

The same values have this border

30:58

thing going on which is I've

31:01

been in the borders van those

31:03

costs like I've been in the

31:05

border of lately Poland and Ukraine

31:08

or Columbia and Venezuela or Greece

31:10

and Turkey. Ours. City.

31:13

And And and Jordan

31:15

Visa Conflicts Borders. The.

31:18

Refugees are passing to assess

31:20

the. Tendons,

31:22

This migration or of the economic

31:24

migration of southern been there are

31:26

some refugees like people hours. Of

31:29

playing for. You. Know asylum

31:32

Like Venezuelans, Nicaraguans,

31:34

some Cubans, But.

31:37

Them that us and them some other

31:39

atomic nucleus. that's just that health. I've

31:41

been in the border see a to

31:43

in Texas seen people mothers and children

31:46

being abuse going to this past June

31:48

is some of them that making it.

31:51

Is it's not good for anyone

31:53

Know that's one side. At

31:56

the same time. and never some

31:58

other need for labor and distances especially

32:00

if you look at farms and service

32:03

industry. Basically, there

32:06

is a need to reform this, that

32:09

legal pathways for seasonal

32:12

workforce or long-term

32:14

workforce, be able to come in

32:16

legally under the visa, humane

32:18

treatment, and then they can go

32:21

back or they can stay whichever the law is,

32:23

allows or desire is there. But

32:25

this is chaotic, this is bad from

32:27

all dimensions. And I

32:29

think one of the ways to solve this

32:32

is internally there has to be immigration in

32:34

a reform or policy making needs to work on this.

32:36

The second one is, is

32:39

in the long-term, the businesses

32:41

can go to Guatemala, businesses can

32:43

go to Colombia, businesses can go

32:45

to the Central America and that

32:47

region and bring hope to those

32:49

areas and investment. And I

32:51

think post pandemic world is re-emerging. I

32:54

think you'll see a lot of businesses

32:56

showing a lot of interest on

32:59

the Southern borders. I

33:01

get your story is extraordinary. There's

33:03

someone else who's maybe thinking of

33:06

building a business or maybe they're already in

33:08

a business. They're a CEO, but

33:10

open to some of your thinking. What advice

33:14

would you give them? If you just had to distill it, Dan,

33:16

what would you say to them? Chris,

33:18

I think the best thing I can do is

33:21

share what I learned along my journey. And

33:23

in there some specifics to

33:26

the entrepreneurs who are studying this. So

33:28

I started Chobani Food Incubator

33:31

in that idea. It's basically picks

33:34

maybe dozen of startup companies

33:38

and founders, especially the founders, bring

33:41

them to Chobani, open all the doors for four

33:43

months, give them some seed money, not to take

33:45

anything back and just open

33:47

everything. And so they can see, learn.

33:51

And so they don't have to make mistakes or maybe have made

33:53

mistakes or use the things that we have come

33:55

to a conclusion that is valuable. And

33:58

I think sharing that is extremely important. person. And in

34:00

there, I come back to this couple of things.

34:02

And one is, like the product

34:04

you make today might change. That's no problem.

34:07

That's no problem. But the most

34:10

important thing is who is that person? You know, who

34:12

is that person? What is soul

34:14

centered? What he or she is thinking? Why

34:16

are you doing this? What's bothering you? Like,

34:18

what's bothering you? What do you want to

34:21

change? Something is burning inside. You can tell

34:23

what is it. There are a couple

34:25

of advice I give is your

34:29

product has to be right. It has to

34:32

be perfect. The part

34:34

is buy my product, not because

34:37

I do good in the world. Buy my product

34:39

because it's the best damn product there is. And

34:42

then there's a richer story after. And that's where

34:44

you find out, oh my God, what this company

34:46

does for the employees. Oh my God, what this

34:48

company does for the community. Oh my God, what

34:51

the ingredients the company uses. And

34:53

it just gets richer and richer and richer. But product

34:55

has to be right. You know, I always

34:57

tell them, you can't just do all this from

34:59

soft values. There needs to be an absolutely,

35:01

you know, exciting hardcore there as to why someone

35:03

is in. And I love what you said

35:05

about, you know, a lot of

35:08

people think maybe they would like to be an

35:10

entrepreneur and so forth. But I mean, you

35:14

know, when an entrepreneur is really on fire,

35:17

when they cannot not do what they want

35:19

to do. It's different. It's

35:21

very different. It's very different. Yeah,

35:24

it's hard to do this, right? It's very

35:26

hard. People, most businesses don't work. It's just,

35:28

it's very, very hard to get

35:31

all the pieces to connect in the competitive world and

35:33

all the rest of it. And I think the

35:35

large majority of people actually never do that, which doesn't

35:38

mean it's not worth. Yeah,

35:41

100%. And those

35:43

hot days, you know,

35:45

within days, maybe sometimes within weeks you

35:48

survive or not. And those

35:50

critical times comes in really

35:54

time where you strength,

35:56

internal strength is matters. But

35:58

Most importantly, Who do you have? That answer. Because

36:01

of the day is. A lot

36:04

of people around you and all high

36:06

fives the truly what's your support system.

36:09

And those. Critical. Times.

36:12

And. I tell

36:15

the story all the time. I.

36:17

Had my mom's. Scots.

36:20

That to this hill Turkish villages

36:23

Scots by she has invested past.

36:26

And. I hold it under my hat.

36:28

I always wear hats. That

36:30

was my support system is that if I

36:33

do something wrong or can always rely on

36:35

that spirit. The second part I did in

36:37

early days. I brought everybody that

36:39

he was at the time about two hundred

36:41

people into conference room. And. All.

36:44

The. Security. And.

36:47

People. Walk on the floor and spotless and out

36:49

about. some of them are big guys that on

36:51

it and was kinda slowed. I said. Ice

36:55

is getting a very much concerned that I think

36:57

these things going. If you'd really picks. I

36:59

think this is that be very and

37:01

read really excited for the most visible

37:04

to this was my exact once I

37:06

said I don't have family I don't

37:08

have any relatives here. I don't have

37:10

a lot of friends here. And

37:12

as good as long as quite a bit. At.

37:15

Any point is you see me change

37:17

if you seem it behaves like a

37:19

big shot for the rich guy or

37:22

something that I see on the T

37:24

V is that happens to me because

37:26

I didn't trust that was handled the

37:28

success. I am give

37:30

them permission to every single one of you

37:32

to. Hit me on Asus Postman

37:34

the face of the hottest way as

37:36

a six me up at I settled

37:38

with this is the Ask and this

37:41

is as a class but this is

37:43

also ordered the Journey I said i

37:45

don't answer that this This is because

37:47

of this. Five. Years from now

37:50

ten this with another beagle book bag

37:52

of assists the miss that the room

37:54

that are look like the have done.

37:57

Well. I can only imagine some people are

37:59

hearing this thinking wow I would have liked

38:01

to have had to you or someone very

38:03

like you visit but that was a bid

38:05

for that's a bit of a waiter and

38:07

this hum the thank you so much for.

38:10

Your. Inspiration thanks to I'll Get for that matter,

38:13

but thanks for your inspiration! Really wish you all

38:15

and carrying this idea out into the business lot

38:17

more broadly. Thank. You Chris I'm so

38:19

honored to be with you and and thank you

38:21

What the work and then you have a

38:23

champion of this idea of this generosity of

38:25

of the mess. And. Finding solutions

38:27

as nuff well as enough resources

38:30

there's nothing Thompson's and most importantly,

38:32

how to bring them all together

38:34

to clear that, create a movement.

38:36

Thanks so much! And six first!

38:39

Have it may arise, Excellence. I'm

38:41

deal a client. Thank you thank

38:43

you. Okay,

38:48

that's about it. And

38:51

he liked it. Please consider sharing

38:53

with others or says like hum

38:55

these deserve to go viral and

38:57

you can help considerate your own

38:59

active and six generosity. And

39:02

see like to dig deeper into all of this.

39:04

Please. Consider reading my book infectious,

39:07

interesting, the or listening to it.

39:10

Offer it for free to

39:12

all Ted Interview listeners thanks

39:14

to generous donor just had

39:16

ever to ted.com/generosity and you

39:19

can redeem by that the

39:21

book or the audiobook right?

39:23

That. One

39:25

of the thing you might

39:28

like to try to do

39:30

is to set out Ah,

39:32

Generosity A I is called

39:34

Tic the infectious generosity girth

39:36

you can find tag that

39:38

in sexist generosity.org Take will

39:40

help you brainstorm your own

39:42

acts of infectious central states.

39:44

Really really fun to play

39:46

with and actually quite surprising

39:48

walk and come out of

39:50

that creativity. Or

39:53

right when. Next week was John

39:55

Swinney, who's creative approach to paying

39:58

it forward has transformed Coffee. shops

40:00

around the world. John is wonderful

40:02

as well. The

40:05

Ted interview is part of the

40:07

Ted Audio Collective, a collection of

40:09

podcasts dedicated to sparking curiosity and

40:11

sharing ideas that matter. This

40:14

episode was produced by Jess Shane. Our

40:18

team includes Constanza Gallardo,

40:20

Grace Rubinstein, Van Van

40:22

Cheng, Michelle Quint, Roxanne

40:24

Heilash and Daniella Ballareso.

40:26

The show is mixed

40:28

by Sarah Bruguet. Thanks

40:30

so much for listening. Catch you next

40:32

time.