0:01

Ted Audio Collective Hello

0:12

there, I'm Chris Anderson. This is the

0:14

Ted interview. Now this

0:16

season we're expanding on an idea that

0:19

I believe can offer a response to

0:21

many of the issues we're currently facing

0:23

as a society. It's

0:25

an idea I wrote a book about

0:28

called Infectious Generosity. In

0:30

the spirit of generosity, we're offering free copies

0:32

of both the e-book and the audio book

0:34

to Ted interview listeners. You can

0:37

go to ted.com/generosity,

0:40

fill out the short form there to claim yours. Now

0:43

this podcast series is designed to amplify

0:45

the themes of the book by

0:48

bringing some of its main characters to

0:50

life before your very ears. Today

0:53

we're going to focus on how

0:55

we make our generosity more thoughtful

0:57

and more effective. And the

1:00

guest I'm about to introduce you to has

1:02

probably spent as much time thinking about this

1:04

topic as anyone on the planet. He

1:07

is Will McCaskill, a

1:09

leading moral philosopher, co-founder

1:12

of the Effective Ultraism

1:14

Movement, EA for short. And

1:17

he's the author of some

1:19

amazingly influential books like Doing

1:21

Good Better and What

1:24

We Owe the Future. Now

1:28

EA, you may have noticed, has been subject

1:30

of a lot of discussion in the last

1:32

couple of years, some of it quite heated.

1:36

I can't wait to get Will's perspective on

1:38

recent controversies. But even more important

1:40

than that, a true

1:42

understanding of his thinking about

1:44

generosity, I really think

1:46

the questions we'll be asking each other today,

1:49

are right up there among the most important

1:51

questions anyone can ask of their own life.

1:55

What's the wise way to be kind? How

1:58

can we maximise our impact on the world for the future? for

2:00

good? How much money should

2:02

we give away? And how can we do that

2:04

effectively? And what are

2:06

the risks if we get

2:09

this wrong? Okay, let's dig

2:11

in. Canva

2:20

presents unexplained appearances. It was

2:22

an ordinary work day until...

2:25

That presentation appears out of

2:27

thin air. No, it's eerily

2:29

on brand. Wait, did that

2:31

agenda just write itself? Words

2:34

appear, making this unexplainable case...

2:36

Unexplainable? That's Canva's A.I. tools.

2:39

I can generate flies and rose in

2:41

seconds. Really? The real

2:43

mystery is why I'm only learning

2:46

this now. canva.com. Designed for words.

2:53

Will McCaskill, welcome to the TED interview. Thanks

2:55

for having me on. Well, let's

2:57

start with a bit about you. I mean, I'm

3:00

just curious what it was about you that took

3:02

you on this journey to

3:04

some pretty exciting, pretty radical, pretty

3:06

provocative ideas. Sure.

3:09

So I grew up in Glasgow in

3:11

Scotland. And even from a

3:13

pretty early age, I wanted to

3:15

try and make a difference in the

3:17

world. So I worked

3:19

at an old folks home. Yeah,

3:22

elderly people who had severe disabilities.

3:24

I helped her on a scout

3:26

group for disabled children. I volunteered

3:28

at a local school. I donated some amount

3:30

of money to charity and so on. This

3:33

was all kind of a bit haphazard, a bit ad

3:35

hoc. And it was

3:37

once I started learning about global

3:39

poverty and the extremity of

3:42

poverty that people live in, that

3:44

this started to change. So

3:46

I remember first when I was, I think,

3:48

17, learning that 46 million people at the

3:51

time had died of AIDS. And

3:53

honestly, I just thought, how are we

3:55

not talking about that more? How

3:57

is that not on the front page of every

3:59

newspaper? This is not that typical

4:01

behavior for a kid. I mean, did

4:04

your friends think you were weird?

4:06

Did they admire you?

4:08

How do you think this actually happened? Like,

4:11

why did you care about these things? Not

4:13

that many kids spend their time volunteering like

4:15

that. Yeah, so I did

4:17

have friends who were also, you know, just

4:20

concerned to make a difference. So

4:23

actually, all my close friends, literally 100%

4:25

of my close friends became doctors. And,

4:28

you know, we were doing some of these volunteering

4:30

activities together. So I certainly

4:32

had some social encouragement from some really

4:34

kind people who I'm still friends with

4:36

today. But I do

4:38

think there's part of this that was just,

4:41

you know, quite innate and really

4:43

just something I was, a kind

4:46

of denial I think I was born with. So

4:49

you think of that almost as good

4:51

fortune, not as something

4:54

to boast about necessarily, but just this is

4:56

just who you are. Yeah, I mean,

4:58

there's certainly a huge amount of good fortune in the

5:00

sense that I've been born with

5:03

so many privileges. Born into a

5:05

rich country, middle class, I got to go to a

5:07

private school, and then from there to

5:10

Cambridge for my undergraduate. I really just

5:12

had all the benefits you could hope

5:14

for in life. And so it

5:16

was very salient to me then

5:19

that I should be

5:22

thinking about, well, given that I've got all of

5:24

this privilege, how can I take that privilege and

5:26

turn it into a way of making the world

5:28

better? It feels

5:31

like there's always been a bit of a radical side

5:33

to you, someone willing to go against the grain. I

5:35

mean, I think Macaskill wasn't the

5:37

surname you were born with. Yeah,

5:40

that's right. I definitely think that many

5:43

of the decisions I feel happiest with

5:45

in my life are ones where I've

5:47

gone against societal norms. Sometimes

5:49

that's to do with effective altruism, so I'm sure

5:52

we'll talk about my giving and so on. But

5:55

in other cases, it's not. So when I got

5:57

married, I took my now-born son, who was a

5:59

child. ex-wife, we're still good friends,

6:02

yeah, took my ex-wife's grandmother's

6:04

maiden name, as did she, where

6:07

the underlying thought was just what is with

6:09

this tradition, where when a

6:11

man and a woman get married, they by default

6:14

take the man's name. And so instead I thought,

6:16

well, why not just choose a name that we

6:18

have some connection with that we really like? And

6:21

I think that was one of the best decisions I ever made. So

6:23

I love this. So you're someone who's just

6:25

willing to look at the world and say, huh, that

6:29

makes no sense. The fact that

6:31

everyone else is doing it isn't

6:33

a reason necessarily to do it. I'm going to do

6:35

what I think makes sense. That is who you are

6:37

at your core, I think. Yeah.

6:40

And I think that has been

6:42

something that I

6:45

found consistently. And in fact, even over

6:47

time, I've learned more and more that

6:50

very often, if there

6:52

are really good arguments for something,

6:55

whether that's arguments for the

6:57

value and importance of charitable giving, for

7:00

the importance of focusing on effectiveness, for

7:02

changing your name, or for catastrophic risks

7:04

from AI even, if

7:06

there are good arguments, even if society

7:08

hasn't yet caught up to those arguments,

7:11

that doesn't mean the arguments are wrong.

7:13

And in fact, you have potential to

7:15

have an outsized impact in the

7:17

world by focusing on things where

7:19

the arguments do make sense, but the world

7:21

is not yet caught up. Yeah.

7:24

So you studied philosophy at university,

7:26

I think, as did I.

7:28

Most people I know who study philosophy at

7:31

university didn't do anything. It is like

7:33

in some ways, it's the least practical

7:35

topic you can kind of study. You

7:38

did. You ended up becoming a

7:41

co-founder of this, what do we call

7:43

it, a field, a form of thought,

7:45

a movement, effective altruism. What is effective

7:48

altruism? So effective

7:50

altruism is about using your

7:52

time and money to

7:55

try to make the world better, But

7:57

using those things as effectively as possible.

8:00

The possible. So rather than

8:02

just donating. To whatever

8:04

charity at filters you in the street

8:06

and asks you to donate in said

8:08

sinking the meal he carefully and really

8:11

going with well the best evidence and

8:13

arguments are to donate to. The.

8:15

Organization where you think he'll have the biggest.

8:18

Positive. Social Impact. Or.

8:20

When you're thinking about your time in

8:22

particular, your career where you have a

8:24

huge amount of time that can possibly

8:27

be used for good or really thinking

8:29

carefully about okay, where with my scarce

8:31

hours on this planet can I have

8:33

the biggest positive impact I can. And

8:35

then it's about just not only thinking

8:37

about it but we we going and

8:39

putting it into practice as well. So

8:42

this all began with an organization called

8:44

given What We Can which encourages people

8:46

to give at least ten percent of

8:48

willing come to what have a chance.

8:50

He's they believe will do the most good

8:52

and some their this idea of can build

8:54

and out and became what's now known as

8:56

the Effect of Else was movement. Sweaty

8:59

suskind tests You encouraged us

9:01

to us. Three. Questions

9:04

to guide us towards more

9:06

effective giving can remember what

9:08

there's one I think I

9:10

asked about what's problems are.

9:13

Biggest. In scale. What I.

9:16

Am most flexible so when you actually putting

9:19

effort you can actually make a difference. And

9:21

then finally what most neglected. Where.

9:23

If a problem is unusually neglected, then

9:26

that suggests that additional resources going into

9:28

that problem within a few time and

9:30

money can we? We have an outsized

9:32

impact. So. I quit.

9:34

The three questions in the book committees

9:36

struck me as a very good combination

9:38

that of encouraging someone to move beyond

9:40

what is the way that we normally

9:43

get involved to can't causes his s

9:45

oh I know someone who's suffered from

9:47

that to trying to imagine what it

9:49

would take to be most effective than

9:51

and those are certainly a each other's

9:53

in their different way help guide you.

9:56

To. That for you asking those

9:58

three questions. What? That encouraged

10:00

you to focus on. So for

10:03

me I think that's led me

10:05

to a particular focus on global

10:07

catastrophic desks and in particular risk

10:10

some new technologies, emerging technologies. So

10:12

in that Oct twenty seventeen I

10:15

talked about ask them pandemics and

10:17

also asks them artificial intelligence and.

10:20

Those. Who have any neglected? And

10:22

that was in part because they occur

10:24

so valley like. Really large scale pandemics.

10:27

New car every thirty years. I have

10:29

a hundred years as a society isn't

10:31

appeared in the way that it should

10:34

be when it were looking to the

10:36

future. The possibility of manmade pandemics due

10:38

to advances and biotechnology mean that we

10:41

might get much larger pandemics and much

10:43

scarier pandemics than we've even hadn't the

10:45

past. And then, similarly, with artificial intelligence,

10:48

this is something where. Because.

10:51

At least up until a couple of years

10:53

ago. The technology was. Not. Quite

10:55

yet that you could see the early.

10:58

Development. Within labs being enormously impressive,

11:00

but it hadn't yet hit the

11:02

mask consumer. And

11:04

so because we were concerned about these

11:06

things when because they were getting so

11:09

little attention. That means that if you

11:11

were to then work on these areas

11:13

you to the wanted just a handful

11:15

of people taking seriously a concern that

11:17

was not on other people's may.time. Particular.

11:20

Focus of this I think comes

11:22

because. In. Your furnace

11:24

say you've met at a specific decision

11:26

that not everyone makes. I think most

11:28

people when they think about their moral

11:31

obligations said think about. That

11:33

family, that finity you.

11:36

In. A loss of the early work

11:38

of a set of altruism encourage people

11:40

to think more global into synth about

11:42

suffering and a global scale. We have

11:44

a moral obligation to. Sit.

11:47

Said generation so we could.

11:50

An intensely. And.

11:52

Human civilization and that that

11:54

is abandoning off my obligation

11:57

to countless millions of sense

11:59

of future. Humans are

12:01

sentient beings descended from us. Can you

12:03

make that case? Smokes? It's effect, It's

12:05

it's it's the set out that sir

12:07

I'm happy to. So he thinks about

12:09

Susan's by plan to do as much

12:11

good as you can. We have time

12:13

and money. What is good mean and.

12:16

Well. We think about that

12:18

in terms of how much benefit

12:20

you providing to people, but in

12:23

particular taking everyone's infests equally thinking

12:25

everyone has an equal. Model

12:27

claim upon us and at least for

12:29

this part of modality, not claiming it's

12:32

the whole of mentality. but for this

12:34

part we should take everyone's and infests.

12:37

Who's see everybody equally? And.

12:41

Never. Naturally means that you

12:43

start looking at. Santa. Help

12:45

the people who have a very poorest

12:47

in the world because national boundaries don't

12:49

seem model imported from his point of

12:51

view. But it also means you should

12:53

start looking to the future as well

12:55

where I think the fact that someone

12:58

is born next week Thousand Tomato makes

13:00

known model deference to the claims they

13:02

have upon me. Know in fact if

13:04

someone is born and hundred years time

13:06

we been a thousand years time. The

13:09

fact that someone can experience die or

13:12

suffer and if we can make a

13:14

difference to their life. That's

13:16

is still my we important and

13:18

that become so crucial because I

13:21

think what are really pivotal moment

13:23

in time when they are new

13:25

technologies in particular. That.

13:27

Has the potential to completely derail

13:30

civilization, send us back to the

13:32

stone age, or leads to some

13:34

sort of dystopian future? I'm very

13:36

worried at the moment about the

13:38

capability for a Ita to magically

13:41

empower dictators and would be dictators.

13:43

And that could be a future

13:45

that we have indefinitely. Democracy is

13:47

by no means an inevitable part

13:49

of. A technologically advanced society.

13:51

And so I really do think that the

13:54

things we do today and have an impact

13:56

not just in the present generation, though the

13:58

impact there's very great. But an

14:00

impact for hundreds of years to come with As

14:02

and see us to com or even much longer.

14:05

Ah, my servants test impact Yes,

14:07

I like to start actually by

14:10

just. Challenging. What

14:12

least asking this question about

14:14

or lives have equal. Value.

14:17

No matter how far away they are either.

14:19

And distance. Or. Time I'm

14:21

in. Part. Of me

14:23

totally resident so that that seems

14:25

like a pure philosophical position. And

14:27

certainly if you are a God

14:29

who could step back from the

14:31

present day and look at the

14:33

whole of the universe and imagine

14:35

different versions of it, you would

14:37

want one where humans lived for

14:39

countless generations and the future with

14:41

as much joy and thriving and

14:44

so forth as possible you would

14:46

said that that was a better

14:48

outcome. And yet. A.

14:50

Lot of people might not their heads and you say

14:52

every human life is that the same but then if

14:55

he said to them. Are. You willing

14:57

to sacrifice your children's interest for those

14:59

of children on the other side of

15:01

the world they would say. Oh.

15:05

Now. The immense net know? or if they didn't say

15:07

that, that is almost certainly how they would act.

15:09

It's how I would. So.

15:12

Is this a Darwinian bug that that

15:14

we care more for our children than

15:17

four children elsewhere? In out that is

15:19

the house is burning. You go in

15:21

and he would receive your child had

15:23

some analysis is a bug or feature.

15:26

So I think it's totally reasonable to

15:28

care more about your near and dear

15:30

your family and friends than. Distance.

15:33

Ranges and in the world would be

15:35

a much darker place to be honest

15:37

if you had no special affinity to

15:40

your loved ones. And so

15:42

in what we are the future Had

15:44

you talk about special. Moral.

15:47

reasons we have so these of

15:49

partiality also reasons of reciprocity to

15:51

so people can benefit us and

15:53

that gives us a reason to

15:55

be pay them however the world

15:57

is today is very well attuned

16:00

to those special relationships. You know, people

16:02

are just very generous to their

16:05

friends and family and very caring

16:07

towards them, which is a wonderful

16:09

thing. But

16:11

I'm saying that at least part of

16:13

a good life should involve taking that

16:16

impartial perspective and actually thinking at least

16:18

if you're lucky, like I am, to

16:20

be in the middle class

16:22

of a rich country with the ability

16:25

to choose a career or to donate

16:27

some amount of your resources, at

16:29

least part of your life should be

16:32

about trying to make the world better from

16:34

this impartial perspective. I

16:37

think that's powerful. I mean, definitely, you know,

16:40

we don't want our children or grandchildren

16:42

to go through a horrific dystopian future.

16:44

But I wonder whether there's almost more

16:46

power in saying, look,

16:48

what would be lost if this went?

16:52

We've been many, many millions of years in the

16:54

making. And over the

16:56

last few thousand years, it's absolutely

16:58

extraordinary what humanity

17:00

has built. We

17:03

cannot let all of this go

17:06

for naught. Like part of me thinks

17:08

that that's a more viscerally felt

17:10

argument to a lot of people

17:12

than the possibility that, oh, if

17:16

all this goes in 200 years

17:18

time, there's some person who I can't

17:21

fully picture who won't ever enjoy the

17:23

beauty of life, even if

17:25

it's not doesn't pass the philosophical test, just

17:27

as a sort of persuasive

17:29

human argument. Is there is there a case

17:31

that it's almost more powerful to focus on

17:34

what is lost than the loss of what

17:36

might be? Yeah, I think there is a

17:38

powerful argument here. And it's actually something that

17:40

my colleague Toby Ord discusses in his book,

17:42

The Percibus, which is that

17:45

you can see human history is like a

17:47

relay race. Every generation

17:49

passing the baton on to the next

17:51

generation. And in particular, when

17:54

I think about my life and

17:56

all the good things in

17:58

my life, So many. Them

18:00

are owed to the effort

18:02

of previous generations. Whether that's

18:05

fruits and plants that have

18:07

been selectively bred over hundreds

18:10

of years, or whether that's

18:12

technology like Med Sin again

18:15

product of hundreds of years

18:17

of slow and. Often

18:19

faltering technological progress, Or.

18:22

Whether that's the kind of model

18:24

and political landscape I live in, his,

18:26

well, I think my life would

18:28

be worse if I didn't live in

18:30

an egalitarian society that takes the

18:32

incest says women and minorities and people

18:35

of all definitely says seriously. And

18:37

so. I. Have a

18:39

kind of responsibility to the past as

18:41

well as to the future to ensure

18:43

that we continue that relay race and

18:45

enable that there is a next generation

18:48

that we can pass the baton on

18:50

to and ensure that they has as.

18:52

Happy and forcing lies as possible.

18:55

Part of this discussion that I think

18:57

leads to. Some. Say key

18:59

criticism since Sept voters and that is

19:02

amazing the last couple years. I think

19:04

it's along the lines of the more.

19:07

Distance. You get in terms of

19:09

the moral. Obligations.

19:11

Of the moral calculations that you

19:13

encourage people to take the more

19:15

risk, there is a things going

19:18

harvey wrong. So in theory, if

19:20

you believe that there's a possibility

19:22

of the future in which say

19:24

a trillion humans live and service

19:27

and you think there is some

19:29

act you could take today that

19:31

would has a tiny percentage impact

19:33

on reducing the risk of that

19:36

suits and not happening, say one

19:38

percent. Any single that made the

19:40

tiniest. Difference to. Prospects.

19:45

You. Could justify in as that a utilitarian.

19:48

calculation way or basically just saying

19:50

we should act in a risk

19:52

adjusted way to maximize the overall

19:54

risk adjusted probability of good for

19:56

the whole universe calculate several times

19:58

you can and with some

20:01

wild and crazy decisions. And

20:03

arguably, a certain

20:05

person, Sam Bankman-Fried, was

20:07

guilty of some of this kind of

20:10

thinking. Do you think part

20:13

of him was making

20:17

EA-type calculations? Was

20:19

he just confused? Or was he

20:21

always... What's your view on him?

20:24

So, yeah, Sam committed the most

20:26

horrific fraud. A million people lost money,

20:29

some of whom lost their life savings.

20:31

So the prosecution recently released some messages

20:34

that Sam had received on Twitter during the

20:37

collapse. And it's really harrowing to read, like

20:39

a man who thinks

20:42

he's going to be made homeless has four

20:44

children, another man who was fleeing Ukraine and

20:46

put his savings onto FTX.

20:49

It's really just quite hard to read. And so

20:51

what he did was enormously harmful. Was

20:54

it the result of some careful calculation,

20:58

like some gamble that they made sense as a bet?

21:00

And I think the answer is quite clearly no. I

21:02

think there's no perspective

21:04

on which what happened

21:07

to FTX made sense. Part

21:09

of the EA logic

21:11

has been that there

21:13

are many ways to make a difference in the world. Some of

21:15

them are to give away money now.

21:17

But for some people, if they have

21:20

extraordinary earning potential for the future, it's

21:22

actually better for them to focus

21:24

on accumulating wealth. And

21:27

then at some point in the future,

21:29

then they direct that wealth

21:31

to doing good. And I wonder whether to

21:34

the extent that you say that there was some good intent in his

21:36

mind that

21:38

part of him was saying to himself,

21:40

I can justify taking any kind of

21:43

risk here for the prospect of making

21:45

countless billions of dollars. Because I know

21:47

that one day I'm going

21:49

to spend that money well.

21:53

And therefore the usual rules don't apply to me.

22:00

other people. And certainly when the

22:02

collapse happened, I was very worried that, wow, maybe

22:05

what had happened was exactly this sort of

22:07

calculation. Now that we've gotten

22:09

the evidence that's come out over the last year

22:12

and a half, including at the trial and books

22:14

that have been written about the topic and so

22:16

on, that's at least in my interpretation, not what

22:18

happened. I think there was a

22:20

combination of them being criminally

22:23

and recklessly negligent. And

22:26

literally, I mean, it comes up, they had

22:28

a meeting in June of 2022 where they

22:31

thought that Alameda had borrowed $16 billion from

22:33

FTX, but it turned out it was a

22:35

bug in the code and it was only

22:37

$8 billion. They did not know where all

22:39

the money they had was. They had complete

22:42

absence of corporate controls, even the most basic

22:44

sorts of risk management. And

22:47

my understanding of what happened, that

22:50

gross and criminal negligence put them into

22:52

a hole that they only discovered they

22:54

were then in June of 2022. And

22:57

it was then at that point that they

22:59

start very seriously engaging in Ford

23:01

to try and get themselves out. But

23:03

the kind of key thing that happens is not

23:05

some calculated decision, which

23:07

would have made no sense, like

23:10

no sense doing the maths

23:12

on it. Instead, it

23:14

was just something kind of mindless. And over

23:16

time, I've actually learned that quite a lot

23:19

about other sorts of white collar crimes, in

23:21

particular from this book, Eugene Soltas, is why they do

23:24

it. And that's something he points

23:26

to over and over again. White collar crime

23:28

is not a result of some careful calculation.

23:30

It's a failure of intuition. It's kind of

23:32

this mindless, reckless mistakes that people make. Give

23:35

us a sense of what

23:37

this whole thing was like for you personally, because before

23:40

the fall of Black & Free, he

23:42

was regarded by many as the sort

23:45

of poster child of effective altruism. I

23:47

think he credited you with changing his

23:49

philosophy of life, and at least on

23:51

the surface, he was a very

23:54

visible proponent of EA. And

23:57

then this happened, must Have felt.

24:00

Like the must have slipped betrayal I'm it's

24:02

hard to imagine see you for all that

24:04

you've built. You must have felt for a

24:06

bit that the that. The. Whole thing

24:08

was coming. Tumbling. Down. What

24:10

was it like on the inside? Yeah

24:13

Absolutely. I mean I felt it was

24:15

a lot of emotions so one was

24:17

just yeah. the absolute horror that the

24:19

harms the have been caused seconds. You're

24:21

absolutely right. like a feeling of it's

24:24

fail you know I admired this person.

24:26

I respected him for his to a

24:28

huge amount of goods and a yeah

24:30

satellites are not a fool. And

24:33

then the finding things as confusion as

24:35

well honestly and ask and season access

24:37

to this day. So.

24:39

Many of whom he felt at a time like I'd been.

24:42

Punched to stabbed for something

24:44

like I remember as a.

24:47

Kid. In Glasgow eight years old or

24:49

something as playing in a nearby school. And

24:52

Glasgow has glove from the violence and again a

24:54

gang of kids to steam up to me in

24:56

beat me up. And

24:58

other members of the time not fighting back and

25:01

I just asked. Why? He doing

25:03

buses and the how is this The same

25:05

feeling I had was just like why why

25:07

on earth would you have done this It

25:09

makes no sense to me and so I

25:12

think I was. Maybe even. When.

25:14

The collapse is happening even slow on

25:16

the uptake compared to rest of the

25:18

world. To. Appreciate it for

25:20

the thought that it was because

25:22

if south so in Congress and

25:24

inconsistent with and experiences I've had

25:26

with Sam and with the others

25:28

who are high up Stx so

25:30

his phone. Gave. Many

25:33

people license to pylons

25:35

and. Criticize.

25:38

Ea from all angles me some

25:40

of it justice for my view

25:43

points out like six ugly and

25:45

planning on and possibly I would

25:47

argue because it relieves people of

25:49

the responses. I'm it's it's it's

25:52

ask any difficult questions of themselves

25:54

but nonetheless that was legitimate criticism.

25:56

At this point I'm curious well

25:59

as to. What?

26:01

Your. Take ways on to what extent you

26:03

have felt that. He needed

26:06

to refrain a bit. how he

26:08

a should be. Sort.

26:10

Of yeah, we've always

26:13

emphasized that. Effective

26:15

altruism. Does. Not entail ends

26:17

justify the means reasoning. you know there's

26:19

good reason for that. Non consequences to

26:22

reasons as and just. It's intrinsically Ivanka

26:24

do harm for the greater good, but

26:26

also just it doesn't work. This has

26:28

been known for hundreds of yes there

26:31

are certain models liberals that has evolved

26:33

in our culture for reasons like don't

26:35

inflict harm for the purportedly to good

26:38

fats. In terms of communication about the

26:40

a going forward, historically we've talked that

26:42

was distinctive about living and good life

26:44

which like I said is using. More

26:47

of your these or says the time

26:49

your money to help others and with

26:51

that trying to do as much good

26:53

as you can. But now that Yea

26:56

has gotten more successful and certainly in

26:58

the light of the Stx scandal. I

27:01

think we need to emphasize more of

27:03

was wholly virtuous life looks like were

27:05

that involves all a common sense that

27:08

is being honest, being cooperative, being high

27:10

integrity, being kind and what we're saying

27:12

is is take all of that know

27:14

so away but crank up the dial

27:17

on these other virtues of benevolence. how

27:19

much does care about others for their

27:21

own sake whenever they on the wound

27:23

kind of. the dialogues with seeking as

27:25

well and like the bigger than your

27:28

thinking especially when applied to that attempt

27:30

to help. Us is said he of that's

27:32

something I think I'm gonna be emphasizing much

27:34

more going forward. Welcome

27:45

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Canva. Will.

28:18

He is upsetting to me a few months though

28:20

that as the I think a lot of people

28:22

don't get about a which is they think of

28:24

the a as the said as says his. Moral.

28:28

Prescriptions or you know these are

28:30

the organizations uses Support these of

28:32

the causes you should care about

28:34

and is described as a complete

28:36

misunderstanding and that that exley. He.

28:39

A was intended as.

28:42

A process as as it's as

28:44

a way of people thinking, people

28:47

asking the right questions. I.

28:50

Found that powerful I'm interested. Take

28:52

the basic question which I would

28:54

ask have any pylon critic of

28:56

he I. Would.

28:59

You rather your. Altruism

29:02

was effective or innocent. This set

29:04

at a i read it is

29:07

right there. Most people I think

29:09

one that Ottawa's them to be

29:11

effective. Yes to This is exactly

29:14

right and so. The. Model

29:16

Inspiration. I will take this like science.

29:18

So what is science is Not a

29:20

body of pieces of knowledge that we

29:23

have no even is a body of

29:25

widely accepted series is primarily a process

29:27

as the use of experiments and former

29:29

reasoning to help us get to the

29:31

truth that is the core of what

29:34

science says. What is Effective altruism again

29:36

is not a set of recommended charities

29:38

and recommended career paths that I am

29:40

very confident that we're still in the

29:42

dark about lots of things and very

29:44

concerned with an enormous. Amount we don't

29:47

know. I change my mind on a

29:49

huge number of topics in the last

29:51

fifteen years. In the next fifteen, I

29:53

expect to change my mind many times

29:55

again. Instead, what it is is a

29:57

question. The question as well. With.

30:00

The time and money that I'm willing

30:02

to put towards. Doing. Good. How can

30:04

I make that as effective as possible? How can I do

30:06

as much good as possible? And gonna

30:08

really just look at the evidence as

30:10

best I can and gonna engage with

30:12

all the arguments that I and I'm

30:14

gonna release find take this seriously work

30:16

at Flu because it's so important that

30:18

I'm really want to get my my

30:20

answer. So. Let's talk

30:22

about ah. Lot

30:25

more is you. Must.

30:27

And want to be do about it. Sure,

30:30

where I want to place most of

30:32

the emphasis would affect the ai is

30:35

on the idea of explosive growth and

30:37

capabilities. So. This is a way

30:39

in which A I is different I think

30:41

than any other technology is that at some

30:43

level of capability which we might well

30:45

death in. The. Next year's next

30:48

decade we will have Ai that can

30:50

build better ai that is a I

30:52

that significantly helping with a process of

30:54

the certain development of ai systems themselves.

30:57

And those better ai systems will be

30:59

able to build better, they on and

31:01

so on. And so this is an

31:03

argument goes all the way back to

31:06

I J Good, a computer science pioneer

31:08

because it intelligence explosion and more recently

31:10

much more indepth work has been done

31:12

to scrutinize the argument embedded into former

31:15

models of economic growth. And

31:17

I really think that the argument

31:19

is surviving. And that's really quite

31:21

a dizzying thought. Because what it

31:24

means is that. What?

31:26

You would naturally think of as

31:28

many centuries of technological progress. So

31:31

everything that I happen technologically speaking

31:33

between now and the year Two

31:35

Thousand Five hundred Let's say. All.

31:38

Of that might occur within the course

31:40

of just a few. Yes, because you

31:43

get Ai that can create better a

31:45

I and quite soon you have. Billions.

31:48

Of Ai scientists working twenty

31:50

four hours a day to

31:52

creates better than more powerful

31:54

technology and. I think

31:56

by default had says he go very well.

31:59

It means that. Inventing. New

32:01

weapons of Mass Destruction. Including new

32:03

weapon to me that we haven't even conceived of.

32:05

Yeah, It means that were

32:08

able to automate military power such

32:10

that's a single person in principle

32:12

could console all military force. Basically

32:14

a robot Ami it means potentially

32:16

dictating beings sets have model status

32:18

themselves that she was gifts and

32:20

model consideration to and then finally

32:22

if we are creating in such

32:24

a short period of time a

32:26

I systems that are far far

32:28

more intelligent than us and more

32:30

capable than us if things that

32:32

the risk that we could lose

32:34

control of those systems to. And

32:37

so the way I think of ai

32:39

is like. In analogy

32:41

to the industrial Revolution, where the industrial

32:44

revolution just meant that the pace of

32:46

technological saints increased by a factor of

32:48

about thirty. and I actually think a

32:51

I could increase that pace of change

32:53

by a factor thirty even even more

32:55

than that again. And so it's like

32:57

this accelerator that brings a whole suite

33:00

of different concerns that we need to

33:02

pay attention to and and carefully govern.

33:07

It ready to sit as if. Oh. That's

33:09

or off and it also feels as if

33:11

it's in gonna be incredibly hard to stop.

33:14

The Train. Now A lot of people

33:16

in the space say. That.

33:18

There's a five percent chance that

33:21

seems to go horribly wrong, but

33:23

they'll probably go right. they'll probably

33:25

be better. and but part of

33:27

the for hunts can include consigning

33:29

all of humans to irrelevance. And

33:31

that stephanie the outcome. I at

33:33

the amongst as says that we're

33:35

not going to be the main

33:37

game in town months longer and

33:39

what was com will be amazing,

33:41

an astounding and who knows what

33:43

we're unlocks. I also. Worry.

33:46

About the sap that. Any

33:48

good thing that happens in the world. You

33:51

know when it happens? As an

33:53

intentional battling against accounts at Universe

33:55

in Oak, we build things. Kathleen,

33:57

Soliah New, put them together and.

34:00

You make gradual progress and then bad things

34:02

happen very quickly and said of blow up

34:05

part of that progress than you try again

34:07

try again. but the more powerful the things

34:09

we built the bigger those fans. Can.

34:11

Be and the fact that were. Creating.

34:15

Technological. Powers that could take

34:18

out eight billion humans very quickly

34:20

is so kings. Is there a

34:22

pathway to too good at home

34:25

watching this? Avoiding this without without

34:27

sounding like complete luddites. We

34:30

had become luddites. So. I

34:32

think that is a pathway and I

34:34

think Ai has. Potential. To do

34:36

enormous amount of good as well and I

34:39

think part of the solution in fact will

34:41

be using a I to help us with

34:43

the problems we face, including the problems of

34:45

a I alignment. So.

34:48

One thing I think we can do. Is.

34:52

Try. To accelerate the helpful parts of

34:54

Ai and push back the kind of

34:56

scary and more dangerous parts. So there's

34:58

an idea called to Ai which is

35:00

a I that just you ask you

35:02

to do something and helps. Yeah it's

35:04

kind of just like an input output

35:06

Sunset Cbt is like this contest with

35:08

the density I agency hi that's where

35:10

you can tell it to do something

35:13

and is not just giving you an

35:15

answer like a kind of article instead

35:17

of actually going out in the wild

35:19

and making a lot changes. That.

35:21

Is a lot more dangerous and upon

35:23

the release of Sympathy for A one

35:25

year ago now many people sides to

35:27

turn it into an agent including some

35:30

people who created what they called chaos.

35:32

Tp T that was explicitly and succeeds

35:34

to take over the world and achieve

35:36

digital immortality. A Thankfully it wasn't very

35:38

good but what we could do is

35:41

to say look to Lay I is

35:43

amazing to see I can really help

35:45

us out. A dense okay I we

35:47

are not prepared for so let's maybe

35:49

even subsidize Accelerate to Lay. I that

35:51

really pretty intense regulation and the

35:54

brakes on a density I sat

35:56

I think would help an awful

35:58

lot like that the such. conversation.

36:00

And if this was a cause that

36:02

someone wanted to support and get into,

36:05

is there any

36:07

resource that you can point them

36:09

to? So for effective altruism in general,

36:12

the single place I'd most love to

36:14

point people is giving what we can.

36:16

So that's the organization that I helped set up

36:18

15 years ago now. And it

36:21

encourages people to give at least 10% of

36:23

their income, to take a pledge to give

36:27

10%. And I believe you're a member, Chris?

36:30

I am a member. And this is actually what I

36:32

want to turn to you now. It is a big

36:34

and bold thing where you're asking people

36:37

to do what

36:39

certainly religions in a way have asked people

36:41

to do for a long time, but which

36:44

has fallen out of fashion is to make

36:46

a pledge pledging anything, I

36:48

think shifts you from

36:50

impulsive charitable giving

36:52

to thoughtful charitable giving. And that to me is

36:55

almost like the biggest single thing. If you know

36:57

that each year you're going to give away a

37:00

material amount, then it

37:03

just makes it natural, completely natural to start to

37:05

think, well, okay, what should I give it to?

37:08

Yeah, absolutely. And it's certainly the case for

37:10

me that I don't think I would be

37:12

giving nearly as much as I am if

37:14

I hadn't made those earlier statements. And I

37:17

didn't have a community of people around me

37:19

who are encouraging and think this is like

37:21

a cool thing to do rather than something

37:23

weird or abnormal. I mean,

37:25

look, in the book, I argue for

37:27

this pledge and specifically, I think giving

37:29

what we can or actually is the

37:32

best place you can go to join

37:34

a community, make the pledge public. They've

37:36

got a lot of great tools that

37:38

allow you to potentially step up to

37:40

10% if you're not able to

37:43

do that initially. But I

37:45

think for a lot of people, we need more

37:47

sort of life hack type motivations

37:50

to get there. Maybe you need

37:52

to see a picture of the

37:55

child from the organization who you're supporting. Maybe you need

37:57

to go on a trip with them from time to

37:59

time. I'm and actually see the

38:01

work in person so that you

38:03

can feel it. Maybe you need

38:05

to hook up with a community

38:07

of supporters who will help you

38:09

feel okay? We're doing this as

38:11

a team effort. Yeah, see know.

38:13

when I was thinking about how

38:15

much am I going to pledge,

38:17

am I gonna stick a ten

38:19

percent? My gonna go even more.

38:21

I actually did just go through

38:24

photos of children in poor countries

38:26

suffering from neglected tropical diseases and.

38:28

What? I thought to myself

38:31

was. Can. I. Look

38:33

these children in the I'd either it's

38:36

photos of them but looking them in

38:38

the eye and say look, I can

38:40

justify having this money to myself and

38:42

I remember in particular. One

38:44

child who had an unusual

38:46

condition lymphatic filariasis of the

38:48

face that also known as

38:51

else and passes so conditioned

38:53

to make your body parts

38:55

swell up and so their

38:57

faces this and incredibly swollen

38:59

and possibly debilitating disease. And

39:01

honestly I just thought. Look.

39:05

At my donations this past my income

39:07

or wherever can prevent this one sized

39:09

some having a condition like that it

39:12

will have been worse as to will

39:14

have been well worth it. And

39:17

let alone the fact that actually, it's

39:19

hundreds of times more than the. Who.

39:24

Saw think it's completely legitimate to do

39:26

that, to try and find, to think

39:28

of yourself as as complex make sense

39:31

hadn't heart and to say I need

39:33

to find the ways that the brig

39:35

my along on the journey here because

39:37

the head is important but and story

39:40

not minutes to be going the hallway.

39:42

Speaking of which, I don't worry that.

39:46

For some people, but you eat. You

39:48

describe yourself as in a you're not

39:50

getting more than fifteen cents. Hearing color

39:52

mean? that's that's incredible. Some.

39:54

People will share that and go oh my god

39:57

is this is the logical outcome of the journey

39:59

on the scale. I don't want

40:01

to hear any more. And Sir

40:03

Peter Singer's arguments is so powerful

40:05

and yet. They. Scared

40:07

a lot of people inside. I.

40:10

Tried in the book and I'm

40:12

I'd like to bounce this off

40:14

the or philosophical critique I tried

40:16

in the books to. Put. Together

40:18

an argument that said that if you

40:20

embark on the senate, it's actually not

40:23

a journey towards unlimited giving that a

40:25

pledge can be a ceiling. As

40:27

well as a flaw in terms of

40:29

what we require from each other and

40:32

the argument with assess what it was

40:34

tix found the pledge so that it

40:36

wasn't just an income pledge for the

40:38

very rich and income pledge is at

40:41

the scene that that challenging many of

40:43

the billion as for example don't have

40:45

much income well as to that well

40:47

I'm and for the very rich I

40:50

think the the traditional muslim. Pledge.

40:52

as I thought of turn off the Sense

40:54

of Your net wealth. And. Nearly

40:56

as a much more challenging and a

40:59

much more important has to make. So

41:01

I then did a calculation well that

41:03

that said what would happen if. A

41:06

meaningful number of the people

41:08

who can afford to do

41:10

so gave the higher odds

41:12

either. Ten. Percent of

41:15

their income. Or. Two and a half

41:17

percent of than that was. Annually, How

41:19

much would that actually race? And even

41:21

if only a third of the people

41:23

who could do that did that, I

41:25

think on the numbers we came up

41:27

with his three or four trillion dollars

41:29

annually. And working with another

41:31

colleague of yours Natalie Cadel see

41:34

helped calculates that the amount that

41:36

this could achieve you could argue.

41:38

I'm not sure whether she would

41:40

argue for I said he could

41:42

hug It's that it kind of

41:44

talents as as almost maximum philanthropy

41:46

that at this level the bottleneck

41:48

suits. making a better future is

41:51

no longer than anticipated is just

41:53

it's execution of that huge amount

41:55

of land speed. Therefore. It's

41:57

reasonable to say that that

42:00

the new that let people

42:02

commit to pledging. The.

42:04

Higher of ten percent of their income

42:06

or to upset the network. they don't

42:09

have to feel guilty. Beyond that they

42:11

have done, they have fulfilled their obligation

42:13

and that. We.

42:16

Actually want. Obligations

42:19

out that that a typical

42:21

human can reasonably fulfill that

42:23

if we have moral obligations

42:25

that a self high, but

42:27

just. Ignored some

42:29

in a clumsy way trying to

42:31

articulate. I'm a mirthless to the

42:33

says moral principles need to take

42:35

into account human limitations. Yeah, I

42:37

mean, I think it's just an

42:39

excellent point. So you know you

42:41

mentioned Peter Singer who had the

42:43

most hardcore games until you have

42:45

the Poverty line. When he doesn't

42:47

do that he gives about he

42:49

gets forty percent or something of

42:51

his income which is a good

42:53

income. I don't give as

42:56

much as I could and I don't give

42:58

until I feel miserable. and mean, it feels

43:00

embarrassing to say that I saw a lot

43:02

of go to. I felt like that. really

43:04

huge problems in the world. The world is

43:06

going to hell in a handbasket. I.

43:09

Am not doing anything about how I don't

43:12

know what to do and I just felt

43:14

really bad. And once you

43:16

start giving ten percent okay, it's not

43:18

as much as he could in principle

43:20

do, but it's more than most people

43:23

are doing a civil give one percent

43:25

sports you person and it's meaningful. It's

43:27

really making a meaningful difference in the

43:29

world and you know that feeling of

43:32

guilt significantly does go away and said

43:34

he stopped to think more like okay,

43:36

I'm actually embarking on this practical protective

43:39

making the world better that feels inspiring

43:41

rather than demoralizing. whom.

43:44

Are consistent with us in our different ways.

43:46

Saying we can do two things at once:

43:48

We can embrace the full power of the

43:50

Peter Singer arguments that we have an obligation

43:53

actually to every. Person. On

43:55

the planet, snippets of repetitive to seats

43:57

at every facet of the pods we

43:59

have us. Huge, unlimited moral obligation,

44:01

but we also can be human,

44:03

we can we can live within

44:06

reasonable human capabilities and it it

44:08

is. A moral objectives and

44:10

lead a life of permanent guilt. It

44:12

really isn't. And

44:14

I love. The. Site.

44:17

He. Built their those A given what we

44:19

tend to organ on us out at

44:21

any one, the sense of this is your

44:23

persuaded by any of this to consider heading

44:26

on over there. I'm using

44:28

some the tools they have and you

44:30

have to start with ten percent or

44:32

two and up since net worth one

44:34

of these it's it's start with something,

44:36

start with something and then use it

44:38

as an excuse to have in our

44:40

a regular discussion with us cause to

44:42

you about how to spend that money

44:44

as sectors he skates and space and

44:46

be amazed the joy that that actually

44:49

brings with it. Is. There

44:51

any final thing you'd like to say

44:53

to people. I just

44:55

thought I was yet. Utterly

44:57

to acts and be the cranes

44:59

filings this and I just wanna

45:01

thank you as well for your

45:03

support. So both Britain giving into

45:05

practice and then not only that

45:07

but going out to bats to

45:09

find get people to donate more

45:11

we all have this huge amazing

45:14

opportunities to get in. The world's

45:16

just by moving a fraction of

45:18

our money spending has a different

45:20

way and that's something that should

45:22

be celebrated and I'm so glad

45:24

that you're being part that celebration.

45:26

Well with other travellers. Here and

45:28

recently welcome and it's help us who

45:30

wants to come. Ambience: son or tablet.

45:33

Come. On and he part of the

45:35

semi. It's an amazing journey. well

45:37

even an incredible thought leader for

45:39

a long time and even some

45:41

a lot And it's than very

45:43

powerful to hear your version of

45:45

the story here of the last

45:47

couple years. So thanks so much

45:50

Feel Black and Forks! This time

45:52

was composition out and Texas. Okay,

45:55

that's about all for today. Like

45:59

to discuss. Please consider

46:01

sharing it with others. I mean you

46:03

could take that as your own active

46:06

and sexist interested in of a no

46:08

one person you mentioned this to or

46:10

someone they might mention it to might

46:12

be inspired and us by Will Mccaskill

46:15

to do something big and if they

46:17

do that will be because of you.

46:20

Next week were talking to Hum

46:22

De Luxe is Sandra to Bonnie

46:25

the most popular Greek yogurt brand

46:27

and the Usa. District

46:30

is Succeeds. Please refer to

46:32

himself as an anti Cel

46:34

because it is unique approach

46:36

to bring a spare some

46:38

generosity into his business strategy.

46:40

I can't wait to introduce

46:42

you to his work! For

46:45

more, follow along in my

46:47

book and Sexist and Rusty

46:49

you can access free copy

46:51

of the audiobook at ted.com/generosity

46:54

that doesn't do his part

46:56

of the Ted Audio Collective,

46:58

a collection of podcasts dedicated

47:00

to Spark. And curiosity and

47:02

sharing ideas that matter. This

47:04

episode was produced. My Just

47:07

Shooting team includes Constanza Guy

47:09

Auto, Grace Rubenstein and Ben

47:11

Ten, Michelle Quint, Roxanne, Hi

47:13

Last and Daniella While Or

47:16

A So this show is

47:18

mixed spies, Cerebral Gap, thank

47:20

you so much.