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Fresh for everyone. Hey

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operations. Over

2:06

Your home Hey

2:16

folks, welcome to episode 276

2:18

of the team house. I'm Jack here with Dave our

2:21

guest on tonight's show is Adam Gamal

2:23

He is the author of the unit

2:26

with Kelly Kennedy My

2:28

life fighting terrorists as one of

2:30

America's most secret military operatives Adam

2:33

is One of

2:35

the very few people we've ever had

2:37

on this show under alias whose identity is

2:39

being censored For some valid reasons

2:42

that you'll probably be able to pick up

2:44

on as this interview goes on Adam

2:47

welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us. Thank

2:49

you. Thanks for inviting me so

2:52

let's start at the beginning I you know

2:54

you are a immigrant

2:59

You tell us a little bit about like how

3:01

you grew up overseas and sort of what your

3:03

immigration story was. Yep, absolutely So

3:06

I was born in Egypt went to school

3:08

in Egypt a year or

3:10

two after high school I went to

3:13

law school so law school in Egypt is after

3:15

high school not after college Europe

3:18

and a lot of other countries other than the

3:20

US they have that and when I was

3:22

in college Egypt was

3:24

still under Some

3:26

sort of a martial law and just because of the

3:28

assassination of presidents about in

3:33

1981 so we had a college professor who was like the

3:35

guy with a lot of wisdom and he's like Hey,

3:38

by the way, whatever law you study in here Most

3:40

likely you'll never practice because we're gonna be

3:42

under Laws of emergency for a

3:44

while so that I have a light bulb

3:46

just goes on in my head and I'm like well It's time for

3:48

me to leave to go somewhere else. I

3:51

had a lot of Back and

3:53

forth fighting with the Muslim Brotherhood running

3:56

against them and Student body

3:58

in college. I got beaten by them a few Hi.

4:00

Well yeah no. I mean I should leave. So.

4:02

I I wanted to and initially I was

4:05

like a gal. Go to somewhere in your.

4:08

House. Easier to travel to Europe. Them to come

4:10

to the Sdf was very. Hard

4:12

to. To get a visa, to get

4:14

a student visa and and an immigration status. So.

4:17

I. Went. To

4:19

the embassy of Austria. Days.

4:22

Ago. When. I do. So.

4:25

I went to the Embassy a friend that

4:27

was around the store right after this a

4:29

social. Friends with my given these

4:31

a few anybody to travel outside of Egypt?

4:34

And that time. So in the way back

4:36

three that Us consulate. So. Which

4:38

was three was trying to travel. That one guy

4:40

was like a man who can just a by

4:42

now. American coffee. I was like

4:44

wow these other two countries in England a visa.

4:47

What? Makes you think the ave. Caesar.

4:50

Well nothing to lose was a for buying, get enough produce

4:52

and fi get an application. Fill it out. When.

4:54

I go to our a to go

4:56

for the interview. Really? Do like

4:58

you put the have like you know, bank statements showed that you

5:01

have money. Ah,

5:03

Yeah, property the have only thing so I

5:05

go on. I have nothing. Honestly, I didn't

5:07

even have the money to pay for the

5:09

visa so I. Went

5:12

for the interview the leaders like a is put the

5:14

have the have any real thing. As it

5:16

was the doesn't say I supposed to bring in

5:19

a missing didn't tell, Nobody said anything. She's

5:21

like, well, if I. Let you go

5:23

and come back. Would you bring it? a

5:25

city? Absolutely. So she

5:27

is our we Can you bring it. As

5:30

it whenever you're me to come back. To like

5:32

Tomorrow I said his mother, yes, it's Egypt. For.

5:34

Getting me today's can I come the day after

5:36

tomorrow? Say she's like yeah, he can come to

5:39

the efforts more psycho. Come back in two days

5:41

without one of the small bags that people carry.

5:44

Would. Nothing and. Like. Literally nothing. I.

5:46

Walker. And. The Media Group. With.

5:49

Your by for the that for actually I was his two days

5:51

ago. On I'm coming to submit.

5:54

the bottom feeder that for should like the habit. Of

5:56

idiots and his bag. You wanna see it? says.

5:58

Like you. And

6:01

she's like, she asked

6:03

for the equivalent of, I think, $3.00. That

6:06

was the fees for the visa. That

6:08

time, when I was going, my brother gave me the money. And

6:10

he's like, hey, you never know. Just take the

6:12

money with you. So it was like 29 Egyptian pounds.

6:17

So I gave her 29 Egyptian pounds. And she's like, give me

6:19

your passport. I go in the afternoon

6:21

to pick up my passport with a visa on it. Two

6:25

weeks after, I was in New York City. That's

6:28

the first step. And what

6:31

kind of visa did you come here on? What was

6:33

your game plan? So I didn't have a game plan.

6:36

I was like, let me just get the fuck out of here. So

6:38

initially, they gave you a tourist visa. My

6:42

plan was I'm going to come on the tourist

6:44

visa, apply for a student visa, and

6:46

change my visa. So I went to Hunter College to

6:49

learn English as a second language, and

6:51

then you can go through that to apply

6:53

to change your visa status from

6:55

tourist visa to student visa. But

6:59

I didn't have a game plan, honestly. I was like, you know what? I'm just

7:01

coming. I borrowed $500 from my sister. I

7:04

didn't have any money. I didn't speak any English. I

7:07

landed in New York City in JFK, not far

7:09

from here. Took the subway. Took me

7:11

like an hour to get out of the subway, because I didn't

7:13

know how to get out of the subway. Spent

7:16

the first night in the YMCA. Couldn't

7:19

dial a phone. Took all my friends to

7:21

come and pick me up. Some junky

7:23

guy standing by the bathroom. He

7:25

told me going to the phone like 10 times. I

7:28

think he got sick and tired of seeing me. That

7:31

phone number I have did not have one in front

7:33

of it. So there he could. So I'm dialing the

7:35

phone number. It's somebody in Jersey. And

7:37

just the operator said something in English I

7:39

didn't understand. And I'm like, what the fuck? It

7:42

gives me my quarter back. Finally, that guy was like, let

7:44

me get this number. So

7:46

the guy took the number. He dialed the one. Dialed the number. I called

7:48

the friend. It was like 2 o'clock in the morning by then. A

7:51

guy who was a Boy Scout with me when I was in Egypt. I

7:55

tell him what I'm at. He's like, don't leave. Just go back to

7:57

your room. Lock the door. put

8:00

the bed behind the door. He's like, what are

8:02

you? Just don't move. Next day

8:04

he came and picked me up, and took me

8:06

to a place where a lot

8:08

of immigrants live in

8:10

there. So flat on the floor with

8:12

no masks, nothing. I'm just on the carpet for

8:14

the first three months. And then I started

8:17

learning English, and I started doing things, and then here

8:19

I am, fucking through. What was the culture

8:21

shock like? So

8:24

it was huge for a few reasons. Number

8:27

one, I came in July, and it was

8:29

fucking raining. I'm like, man, it doesn't rain in Egypt in the summer.

8:32

Number two, the year before

8:34

it was the movie Pretty Woman.

8:37

So I see Richard Gere, Julia

8:39

Roberts, the Lemons. So I'm

8:41

coming here, and I'm like, I'm coming here to

8:43

see all of these great things. I

8:46

land, and I'm like, no

8:48

Lemons, no Julia Roberts,

8:50

nobody. So

8:52

it was huge. And then I was

8:54

terrified, honestly. I

8:56

didn't understand what anybody was saying. And

9:00

then the YMCA in Egypt

9:02

is a decent place to stay at for students. Obviously,

9:05

the YMCA here was not the nicest

9:07

place to stay. I

9:10

was hiding my $500 in my

9:12

shoes because I was terrified. And

9:15

then you come,

9:18

honestly, and it's not like what you

9:20

think. You think the US is that clean

9:22

everywhere, nice everywhere, beautiful everywhere. Well,

9:25

some areas, as you guys would know that, not what

9:27

you would think. But yeah, that's the

9:29

thing. Then there is another cultural shock

9:31

where in Egypt, for

9:33

example, police officers, guys that you don't talk to. Here,

9:36

actually, the guys who helped me to get out of the subway station

9:39

with the police officers was very kind, very

9:41

nice. The guys who helped me to

9:43

dial the phone number was a junky, again,

9:45

was really nice. So you start seeing that

9:47

people helping you without you having

9:49

any connection with them. So that's the

9:51

positive side of the cultural shock. So

9:56

you got your student

9:58

visa started. going to

10:00

school here and how did things

10:02

start to evolve for you over the next couple

10:04

years? So you get

10:06

your student visa, you work. So I kind

10:08

of like pump gas and gas stations.

10:11

So in New Jersey like you said in your book, I

10:13

think it's the only state with full service. Yeah. Full

10:16

service stations. Yeah. So

10:18

I'm the guy standing pumping

10:20

gas. I worked in a bakery, delivered bread

10:23

to hotels like super early in the morning. So my

10:25

days, some days would start like from two o'clock in

10:27

the morning to go

10:30

deliver cakes and bread to

10:32

hotels. Finish that,

10:34

work in a ladies sport swears

10:37

tour in Bayonne, New Jersey.

10:39

Finish that, then go to school to learn

10:41

English. From like five till like

10:43

from six to nine o'clock. Then those

10:45

days we'll keep going. Then

10:49

Hunter College was expensive. So I moved to

10:51

another community college in New Jersey. And

10:54

doing all of these different odd jobs. I moved I

10:56

think like 11 times between

10:58

different houses in

11:00

the first like two, three years. One

11:03

day I'm working on a store and an army recruiter

11:05

walks in. The guy dressed

11:07

nice, looks cool. And they

11:09

give you this pre-azvab, like a 10 minute test.

11:12

And he's like, man, if you take this, you

11:15

can, in your past,

11:17

then you can join the army and we'll pay for

11:19

your college. So he just came and kind of came

11:21

in cold calling with like this? He's just walking around.

11:24

At that time I did not have my green

11:26

card yet. So I could not join the army.

11:29

Obviously I didn't tell the guy there, but I took the test, the

11:31

pre-test. Then I kept the number,

11:33

I kept everything. Then I

11:37

lived in Jersey City in Bayonne, New

11:39

Jersey between those areas. And

11:41

like any immigrant, like they go to

11:44

where people who look like you

11:46

are there. The community. The community. So there

11:48

is a mosque in Jersey City. So a

11:51

lot of people are like, hey, you can go there and people will

11:53

help you. So the blind shake

11:55

from the First World Trade

11:57

Center bombing was there. Some

12:00

like I left the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. And

12:03

then I come here and that guy sitting there are

12:05

him up. He would not don't disarm and or anything.

12:07

But. He was just there so after a

12:10

Friday sermon I am He's sitting down

12:12

and talking. On the grill any to sit. And

12:14

see what the guy has to say and people thin and

12:16

asking. Questions. And.

12:19

I'm. Like let me to see what would look like that

12:21

guy. would All of this will know. What? Is

12:24

gonna say and what people can ask. Him say. One

12:26

guy think was the first. The second question.

12:28

One. Guy was like. I. When something

12:31

is oral sex. Forbidden.

12:33

In Islam or not, So.

12:35

The guy. Talks. In a lake? So.

12:38

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12:42

answer to how you gonna go to heaven. Or.

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See terms and conditions, 18 plus. And you asking him that?

14:17

So I put in the book what the answer was. And

14:20

then I was like, you know what, maybe I'm

14:22

just saying in the wrong place. Right across the street

14:25

from there, honestly, was a recruiting

14:27

station. By

14:29

then I have gotten

14:32

my green card. So I went to the recruiting

14:34

station and I said,

14:36

hey, I'm here. I want to join the Navy.

14:39

And an army guy met me and

14:42

he's like, why do you want to join the Navy? I

14:44

said, you know, like I grew up in and

14:47

right by the water in Alexandria, Egypt. Like

14:49

the water. I think the Navy will be

14:51

really cool. The guy was like, we

14:54

have boats in the army. And if

14:56

you want to join the Air Force, we'll have

14:58

airplanes in the army. You

15:00

should join the army. And

15:02

he talked to me, talked to me, talked to me. And

15:04

by the time he was done, he was a Puerto Rican guy. By the

15:07

time he was done, I was

15:09

going to take my ass back to join the army

15:12

and they sold. How

15:15

long did it take you from the time you landed

15:17

at JFK to like getting your

15:19

green card and then like signing your

15:21

papers from the military? Four years. Four

15:23

years. Four years.

15:27

So I, between three and four years, because

15:29

initially when I signed for the army, I

15:32

signed on a delay entry program because I

15:34

was in college. I was in college classes. And

15:38

they wouldn't take you out of college

15:40

to join. For

15:44

I think about four or five months. Then

15:46

summer of 1995 is

15:49

when I was shipped to basic training. And how old were

15:51

you at that time? 25.

15:54

So you're an old man by military standards.

15:56

Yep. Absolutely. And I think

15:58

it's helped. too because

16:01

all of these mind games they

16:03

play with you and basic training

16:06

you know you've seen it because you join in

16:08

an older age you didn't because you're a young

16:10

guy still not very young but young so

16:14

once you join in the

16:17

age your drill sergeant might be I

16:19

was 25 my drill sergeant was like he was like 24

16:21

yeah so it's kind of

16:23

like odd but we had

16:25

a guy who was 31 who had

16:27

a female she was 30

16:31

31 she grew up in between Nigeria and the

16:34

UK she

16:36

was a lawyer so we had all

16:38

of this mix of what it what

16:40

MOS did you come in under and

16:43

start training for so initially

16:45

when he is not a US citizen there are

16:47

limited jobs you can have so initially

16:49

I was what used

16:52

to be 71 Lima which is admin

16:55

administrators club okay and

16:57

I told the recruiter like

17:00

hey I want to I want to have a really cool job so

17:02

if you read the job descriptions in

17:04

the army manual every job

17:06

is a cool job right so yeah administrative specialist sounded

17:08

like as a matter of fact like you know the

17:11

guy who puts the gas in cars it's

17:13

his petroleum specialist and you read it

17:15

yeah exactly so I was a seven-year-old

17:22

which is an administrative special cool

17:25

so you get

17:27

through basic training and start your

17:29

army career as a administrative specialist

17:31

what's what's it like for you

17:33

are you enjoying the army at this point so

17:35

basic training is is horrible for a lot of

17:37

people basic training was not too

17:40

much fun for me either you

17:43

know like the first day in basic training when

17:45

they do this ice break and things and they talk

17:47

to people and you know where you're from why you

17:49

joined the army so

17:52

when you tell people I'm from Egypt that

17:55

there's something not expected they you

17:57

the first guy most likely they've ever met right I

18:00

used to have people in basic training just tell me

18:02

talk because they've never heard anybody speak with

18:04

an accent. And

18:06

I was like, wow, this is really weird. So the

18:09

drill sergeant didn't make it fun either. But

18:12

then after that, my first assignment

18:14

was, so I was holdover in

18:16

basic training, not in

18:18

basic training, in AIT. So after basic

18:21

training, I was holdover for security clearance,

18:23

holdover. Although a seven-year-old Lima does

18:25

not require security clearance. So

18:28

I was wrecking leaves like more than, like I

18:30

became like an expert on how to wreck leaves.

18:33

I was like, these guys, they can have me

18:35

do a lot of other things, but I'm wrecking leaves every day.

18:37

And it was like the fall. So

18:39

you can wreck leaves and then tomorrow you have

18:41

leaves everywhere. Then

18:44

it was Thanksgiving of 1995 is

18:46

when I got shipped to Fort

18:49

Worth, Texas. When

18:52

they're obviously, I'm terrified.

18:54

I still can't, well, let

18:57

me take you back a bit. When I signed

18:59

for the army, there is something, I

19:01

think it's called like nine

19:03

whiskers. There is something where

19:05

they put on your contract

19:08

to basically be evaluated for English.

19:11

So I didn't know that. And

19:14

so I went to basic training, not knowing,

19:16

they supposed to evaluate me if

19:18

I can understand English enough to

19:21

go to AIT after that, or

19:23

they'll send me to San Antonio for

19:25

English as a second language. Well, I memorized

19:27

the smart book. So they thought I knew

19:29

English. So people would ask me like,

19:31

you know, what's this? I'll say a cup of coffee because

19:33

the answer is a cup of coffee. But

19:35

not normally really what's going on. So the

19:37

drill sergeant, they said, this guy

19:39

can speak English good enough to be in the

19:41

army. So I'm like, great. So

19:44

I didn't know that till they told me after. Then

19:47

when I went to Fort Hood, Texas, I

19:51

was assigned to a military police unit. The

19:53

military police unit, I have a sergeant first

19:55

class, took me under his wing,

19:57

and the guy really, I tell everybody. And

20:00

then you're like, when you join the army,

20:02

you want to go. So there is a strategic

20:04

assignment and tactical assignment. I tell everybody, go to

20:06

a tactical assignment in the beginning. Learn how to

20:08

soldier. If

20:10

you are lucky, you're going to have a good supervisor.

20:13

He's going to teach you

20:15

what's important in the army. So the guy was like, hey, man,

20:17

make sure your boots are pitch high, your

20:20

uniform is starched, and you

20:22

have a high and tight haircut. So

20:24

make sure you don't run. If you do those

20:26

four things, you're going to go places in the army.

20:29

I'm like, you know what? This is the easiest job

20:31

ever. Because every

20:33

Sunday, I would spend my time on the

20:35

space in my boots. I'd take my

20:38

uniform to get it starched, go have

20:40

a haircut, and just run. This

20:42

is easy. So they start sending me

20:45

to take some computer classes, PowerPoint classes. The

20:48

unit deployed to Bosnia four

20:50

months after I was there, five months after I

20:53

was there. So

20:55

basically, I deployed for nine months

20:57

where this is immersion. This

20:59

is language immersion, military immersion. You

21:01

are there with the

21:04

military for nine months. My

21:07

first book that I really read that was not

21:09

in school, I've read when I was there. My

21:12

platoon sergeant was Sergeant 1st Class

21:14

Green, gave me the book, and

21:16

he's like, hey, read it, and I'll help you with it. University

21:19

of Maryland went there. I took college classes.

21:22

And then you sold your in 24-7. You

21:25

go to sleep, and you have your PT

21:28

uniform and your fatigues.

21:30

And you don't even have any other clothes.

21:33

So you're doing that 24-7. So I came

21:35

back. English is a lot better. I

21:37

can read more. And

21:41

when I came back, I felt like I can soldier a

21:43

lot better. And then when you're there, you

21:45

exercise, and you're doing PT. I

21:48

used to go out with whenever

21:51

they were short, like, you know, Gunners. I'm

21:54

a guy who's fit. Sergeant 1st Class Green is

21:56

trying to help me out. He's like, hey,

21:58

man, just go out with the. that whoever

22:00

is going on patrol. So I

22:02

would go out with units, squads going on patrol, come

22:04

back, do my job. I did

22:07

that for the entire nine months. I was

22:09

involved in it. When I came back, I

22:12

was like, well, I've done something

22:14

cool, let me PCS. So

22:16

I asked PCS to be sent me to Germany. And

22:20

was this in the, it's still an

22:22

administrative field? Yeah, so I was an admin

22:24

guy and, but

22:28

I didn't really do a lot of, I mean, I did the admin

22:30

work, but I did the other stuff. Like when

22:32

I was in a military police unit, I did the military police

22:34

unit. When I went to Germany, I was

22:37

in an infantry unit. So they sent me

22:39

to do infantry stuff. So I've learned a lot from that.

22:42

And then when I was in Germany, I

22:44

got my citizenship. They sent me back to

22:46

Texas to get my citizenship.

22:48

It was really cool. And

22:52

the guy who did my citizenship, he's

22:55

like, what you gonna do next? You can do

22:57

anything you want in the army now. You are a

22:59

US citizen. I'm like, awesome. I

23:02

might be an officer, I might do something else. I might be

23:04

an MI guy, but I wanted to be an

23:06

interrogator. So I

23:08

called the interrogator branch and

23:10

I said, hey guys, maybe

23:13

this is the now. I wanna be

23:15

an interrogator. And the guy was like, what language is Arabic?

23:17

This was 1999. Okay. 98,

23:20

99. And the guy was like, what language?

23:22

I said Arabic. She's like, I

23:24

have no news for you. I'm

23:27

like, so I wanted

23:29

to explain to him more. I said, by the way, three

23:33

Arabic natives, you don't have to send me to DLI. I'm

23:36

gonna save you a lot of money. You just send me to school. And

23:39

it's gonna save the army a year of training. He's

23:42

like, what language are you? I said Arabic. He's

23:45

like, I don't fucking need you. What part

23:47

of that you don't understand? What part of

23:49

Serbo-Croat do you not understand there, Adam? Exactly,

23:51

Adam. Just to back up, like

23:53

when you were in basic or any of that other

23:55

time, did they ever have you

23:58

like take the D-Lab, take the DLI? PLPT

24:00

do anything did they ever recognize

24:02

like your language skills and

24:04

look to groom you Because

24:06

of that he given the military a lot of

24:08

credit man. I know well absolutely not So

24:11

I'll tell you actually the first guy he said

24:13

something about Language

24:16

the guy who drove me from map when

24:18

he drove me from map back To

24:20

like to where I live and he's like, okay. I'm

24:22

gonna ship like, you know Like

24:25

a few weeks or a few months after

24:27

because I was in the delay entry program the

24:29

driver was like he's poking me Spanish And

24:32

I said why don't you Spanish and he's like well English speak.

24:34

I said Arabic he's like man It

24:37

would become very very handy for you Just

24:39

a driver But after there nobody

24:41

ever said anything to me other than

24:44

making fun of my fucking accent and

24:46

then with my real last name It sounds panish.

24:48

So everybody spoke to me in Spanish So

24:51

I've learned some Spanish Even

24:54

when I was in Germany and I thought about ETS

24:57

and So my

25:00

supervisor who was my supervisor for about seven

25:02

eight months major

25:04

Russell and he's like what

25:06

you're gonna do I said I'm gonna go to DLI to teach

25:08

and DLI if I if I ETS and He's

25:11

like what the fuck when it's on Spanish everybody speak Spanish.

25:14

I was like, I don't And

25:16

he's like, what do you speak? I said Arabic. He's like, what

25:19

did you learn Arabic? I'm like, I'm native so

25:22

nobody ever Offered that

25:24

this is my shocked face Yeah,

25:26

I see it is my shot face. But what

25:28

I did is I I took the

25:30

test on my own Okay, I went and I said,

25:32

you know what? It is like a language test.

25:35

Let me take it. Yeah, I took the test Get

25:37

three three. I call and I'm

25:39

like guys. I wanna I want to change my job and Then

25:44

there was a sergeant first-class Pringles. She was the

25:48

She was the SIG the signal intelligence

25:50

branch manager There

25:54

was no email was not very common

25:56

like not every soldier had an email back then so

25:59

I get a message like one of these

26:01

things was like called telegram messages. So I get one of

26:03

these messages if you're in a class, he's thinking

26:05

about intelligence call me. So

26:07

I call her and I'm like, I

26:10

got this message from you. She's like, we'll give

26:13

you $20,000. If you read and list, stay in the army,

26:16

change to signal intelligence. I'm

26:18

like, stay again. So

26:21

this interrogator guy doesn't want

26:23

to even take me. You're going to give me $20,000? What

26:27

do I find? So

26:29

and she's like, so I did that. And

26:32

so I came from Germany to, she's

26:34

going to send me to school to

26:36

a good fellow, therefore it's based.

26:40

And I get a follow up assignment

26:42

to DLI to teach Arabic.

26:45

So I call her, I'm like, I'm

26:48

just a brand new soldier in that field. I

26:51

didn't want to go to DLI. I wasn't in five then.

26:55

So she's like, where do you want to go? I said,

26:57

Fort Bratt. She goes, you get

26:59

to be the dumbest guy in the army. Send

27:01

me a 4187. Fact

27:03

it. So I fax her a 4187. Next

27:06

day I had a follow up assignment

27:08

to Fort Bratt. And

27:10

I was like, you

27:13

know what, this is where I want to be. And everybody was

27:15

like, so you got the opportunity to be assigned to DLI

27:17

and you said no? And I said yes. And

27:19

Monterey, California. Monterey, California. With

27:22

like nine to five work hours. No

27:25

homework, weekends off. I had no regrets.

27:28

And you went to State Building, North Carolina. I went to State

27:30

Mom. She offers you steak and lobster and

27:32

you're like, I think I'd like to be. Exactly.

27:36

So I went to Airborne

27:38

School and route. So

27:40

in Airborne School, the black hat is like, what's

27:42

your MOS? I'm like 98 golf. It

27:44

used to be 98 golf before it became 35

27:46

pop ponings. Like, what the fuck is that? Like,

27:49

they really didn't, like, it was so unique. MOS,

27:51

a lot of people didn't know anything about it. And he's like, I said, I was like, am

27:53

I? He's like,

27:56

oh, you got to be one of those smart guys. So

27:58

first jump. In

28:01

airborne school I bounced off the fucking ground

28:03

like a sack of shit. Like

28:06

beep beep beep beep beep. And then

28:08

the black hat comes with a big fucking one of those

28:11

mega horns and he's like, hey November did

28:13

you break your fucking leg? And I was

28:15

like I was very light. When I went

28:17

to airborne school I was when I went

28:21

the 82nd I remember the weigh-in. I was

28:23

128 pounds. When I joined the army I was

28:26

112 pounds. So

28:29

when I went to airborne school I used

28:32

to see everybody landing and

28:35

I'm like hanging there. I'm like

28:37

when am I gonna come down? Of

28:39

course you come down and you bounce

28:42

off a few times. I was like man I think I

28:44

broke my thigh. I

28:46

had a picture like really really blue has been blue.

28:49

But I've learned really like

28:52

again English is improving as you move

28:54

on and then

28:57

I go to the 82nd and I'm the first to

29:00

then my battalion within

29:02

the 82nd. And I was the first. They were

29:04

changing that battalion from Spanish

29:07

to Arabic. So again I

29:09

go there and nobody thinks I spoke

29:11

Arabic. This guy Spanish

29:13

unit. He looks Spanish. He

29:16

must be Spanish. So everybody's

29:18

speaking Spanish. And the guys

29:20

I swear I don't speak Spanish. But

29:23

the S3 surgeon major was a good guy to

29:25

run with all the time. So

29:30

there was a deal between DOD and the

29:32

FBI that they when the FBI

29:34

needed linguistics they can borrow

29:36

from DOD. So

29:39

we had a guy in the unit his name was Muhammad. So

29:43

obviously if the unit had

29:49

one Arabic speaker it must be Muhammad. So

29:53

when the FBI asked for an Arabic speaker

29:55

and the unit had one so

29:57

they went to Muhammad. for

30:00

the FBI because they need an Arabic speaker. Mom

30:02

was like, I don't fucking speak Arabic. So

30:05

the first research major goes to

30:07

the S one, the

30:09

admin section, and they're like, hey, who speaks

30:11

Arabic? And she's like, your running buddy speaks Arabic. So

30:15

he comes to me and he's like, who

30:17

in the fucking language do you

30:19

speak in Arabic? And he's like, how the fuck do

30:21

you learn Arabic? Everybody really, for

30:23

the longest, thought I spoke Spanish. So

30:26

I ended up going to the FBI for three months in 1999. And

30:32

what were you doing when you were TDY to

30:34

the FBI? So

30:37

the FBI, they had one

30:40

part I can talk about, but

30:42

it was related to the bin Laden

30:45

personality himself. And then the other part is

30:47

they had the Al-Qaeda manual. They

30:49

had it for a few years. They had a

30:51

lot of military terms in

30:54

it. And the FBI linguists couldn't translate it.

30:57

So they borrowed three of

30:59

us from the military. We had another army guy

31:02

and a Navy female. The

31:05

three of us wanted to do that translation. And

31:07

honestly, it was one of the easiest jobs because the

31:10

translation from Arabic to

31:12

English was actually re-translating back what was

31:14

translated from English to Arabic. Oh, interesting.

31:17

It was an actual army manual. It was

31:19

an actual army manual. The security guard, the

31:21

private security guard of the lobby, needs to

31:24

be a supply clerk in the army. It

31:27

was an Egyptian-American army. You worked at

31:29

Special Forces. Yeah, he worked

31:31

in Special Forces. And

31:35

he was building the manual for them. So

31:38

he took a lot of US Army manuals and

31:40

translated into how to do a specific,

31:43

how to seize an airfield. So a lot

31:45

of these things that how

31:47

to land nav. So for me, it was like,

31:50

this is going to be the easiest job ever, and it's

31:52

going to give me a certificate of appreciation from the director

31:54

of the FBI. So I

31:57

think it took me less than three months to

31:59

change. related by Sadev Fotima. Were the other two

32:01

people that were working with you, were they both

32:04

native speakers or were they DLI trained? No, they

32:06

were DLI trained. I was the only native speaker.

32:08

I was like, and I'm

32:11

sure you guys know this, so in the Sigmund

32:13

branch, the army manual

32:15

said, in order for you

32:18

to have a TSSCI, you have to be a US-born,

32:20

believe it or not. You have to be a US-born

32:22

or US-born? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah.

32:25

You cannot have foreign relatives. Oh,

32:27

interesting. So a native has

32:29

to have foreign relatives because we don't grow in trees.

32:31

Sure. But there

32:33

is a caveat there where they can do

32:36

compelling needs. Like somebody has

32:38

a military unit or an intel

32:40

organization can sponsor you to do

32:42

a compelling need to say,

32:44

okay, we're willing to give that guy a

32:46

clearance because of the risk. Yeah, operational requirements.

32:48

Operational requirements. So that's how I got my clearance.

32:50

It took me four years to get my clearance. So

32:53

I was one of very, very, very few natives. At that

32:56

time, I was

32:58

one of extremely few natives in

33:00

the Sigmund branch. And since

33:02

you were in signals intelligence, I mean,

33:04

were you learning the signals field as

33:06

well? I mean, when

33:08

I think of someone like yourself, I think like,

33:10

oh, cryptolinguists, that would be kind of the position

33:12

for someone like you. So

33:15

yes, I was learning the signal stuff.

33:17

And honestly, knowing the language made, gave

33:20

me an advantage. Because you

33:23

would spend time on on sergeant's time

33:25

on Thursday to practice your

33:27

language. For me, I didn't need to do

33:29

that. I would just send I would get equipment and just play

33:31

with the equipment. And then when I

33:34

was in the unit, I read the book about they

33:38

had the equipment and the if

33:40

you break it, it's okay. So I'm

33:43

like, okay, let me play with this equipment to figure it out.

33:45

So I had more time to spend on the equipment, where

33:47

other guys were spending time on learning

33:50

the language. So I see it

33:52

like the guys who were the ally trained and

33:55

knowing the equipment, they work twice as hard as

33:57

I did. Yeah, when it comes to language. Yeah.

33:59

And we have guys who were phenomenal

34:01

linguists, who were DLI trained. But

34:04

a lot of that was their own personal effort that went

34:06

into it. Like if somebody came out of DLI and then

34:09

it didn't like pursue it on their own and

34:12

didn't really kind of try, like

34:14

like DLI leaves you with sort of a good

34:18

working knowledge but a flat level also.

34:20

Correct. DLI gives you a foundation. Yeah.

34:22

But the guys who I've

34:24

seen they were like phenomenal linguists, after

34:26

DLI did immersion training they went to

34:29

Middlebury for training, they went

34:31

to DLI East for training,

34:33

they went overseas. But we

34:35

had guys who were extremely smart like in the unit

34:38

where like there is a guy and I talked about him in

34:40

the book. In the beginning

34:42

I was like there is no way he

34:44

learned Arabic in four months. No fucking way. So

34:47

I sat with him and we watched like so popular and I'm like

34:50

what did we just say? And then

34:52

he would tell me exactly what he said. And

34:55

that was like Egyptian. Yeah. I was like let me

34:57

change it to the Lebanese Arabic. Yeah. So change it

34:59

to the Lebanese Arabic. And I was like hey just

35:01

tell me what just happened. And he would say

35:03

I don't know, that guy learned Arabic in four

35:05

months. Yeah. So we had guys who were like

35:07

gifted. Yeah. We had a guy learn Somali in

35:09

about three four months. And

35:12

those guys used to humble the heck out of me and

35:14

I'm like man I'm the dumbest guy in the room.

35:17

So I gotta work harder. So they really

35:19

encouraged me to work even harder in knowing

35:22

the equipment or then I went and I've

35:24

run, I took some Farsi

35:26

classes, I took some Swahili classes. I

35:28

was like in order for me to keep up with these guys

35:30

I have to do something to learn something. You

35:33

cannot just be the hey man I

35:35

grew up learning, I grew up speaking Arabic and I've

35:37

learned English in the streets of New York and

35:40

look at me I'm smart. No. So you

35:42

really have to work twice as hard

35:44

as well. This is a really sort of nerdy

35:46

question about this. But for people who are listening

35:48

and don't understand when we say a TSSCI,

35:51

we're talking about a top secret clearance

35:54

with sensitive compartmentalized information which

35:56

is, you know, it's

35:58

a very high level of clearance. I

36:00

thought you had to have the TSS CI to

36:03

go to good fellow. I thought the whole doesn't

36:05

doesn't the whole SIGINT like Sort

36:09

of umbrella Require a TV.

36:11

Yeah, they give you an interim. Oh Even

36:14

from TSS. Okay, and

36:16

I had this interim for a good

36:18

three four years and then I was in the 82nd

36:21

I was in in Fort Bragg when

36:24

9-11 happened, uh-huh But

36:27

I was supposed to go to a knock So

36:30

I advanced non-commissioned officer school to

36:33

be an E7 after that In

36:37

awkward be not so I was going to

36:39

Wachuca for training and that was like a few

36:41

months I Would

36:44

say maybe two or three months after 9-11 When

36:48

I'm there so phase one is common

36:50

core There is no required clearance

36:52

there then phase two and I exiled in

36:54

phase one and I was like, you know I got like, you

36:57

know, all these you exceed the course stand there

36:59

and I'm super happy I'm like, I'm a guy

37:01

wearing my maroon beret. I'm from the 82nd That's

37:04

right. And then first day in phase

37:06

two I get pulled aside

37:08

and Our

37:10

psych advisor he pulls me like the NCO guy and

37:13

teaching us he pulled me aside He's like, I'm sure you

37:15

heard what's going on. So, you know,

37:17

we need to go talk to the security I was like,

37:19

honestly, I didn't hear anything but what's going on? So

37:22

they pulled me aside Because

37:24

I they suspended my interim clear Wow

37:28

Randomly after 9-11 Wow,

37:30

and the reason is you fill out your SF 86 That's

37:34

your when you apply for your player.

37:36

Yeah, so my sf-86. That was a question It's

37:38

it's one of those it was like

37:41

an application like a paper. No nothing

37:43

online and

37:46

it says one of the questions it says Do

37:50

you hold like something like do you hold or have you

37:53

ever held another passport so the question

37:55

two questions in one answer

37:59

can be Yes to either. So

38:01

I answered yes. Because I just

38:03

held another passport in the past. Then

38:06

the question right after that, what's your passport

38:09

number? And that's your

38:11

yes passport number. So I put my passport number.

38:14

And the security lady in

38:16

Fort Huachuca pulls

38:18

me aside and she's like, hey, you have an Egyptian

38:20

passport you didn't tell us about. So

38:23

me being an 80-second guy smartass, I

38:26

was like, well, you know something I don't know. I'm

38:29

glad you know that I have an Egyptian passport because I

38:31

don't have an Egyptian passport. She's like,

38:33

well, here. And she showed me. And I was like, well, if you

38:35

read the question, yeah, English is my fucking

38:37

second language. But I can read. If

38:40

you read the question, it's double. It can

38:42

be either. It's two questions in one.

38:46

And she's like, well, you have to show me that

38:48

US passport that you're talking about with this number. So

38:51

I was like, well, I didn't know Arizona's outside of the

38:53

US. I needed to bring my passport to come into Arizona.

38:56

So obviously, you're like, OK, smartass. You

38:59

have 24 hours to show us your passport, or

39:01

you're going to be kicked out of the place.

39:06

I was kicked out of the

39:08

place. So I went back to

39:10

brag. The

39:12

battalion sergeant major had a fit because

39:14

he had an NCO guy kicked out of school

39:17

for nothing wrong I've done.

39:19

I exceeded course standards. I was doing very

39:21

well. So he's

39:23

like, fuck this compelling new thing. The clearance

39:26

thing is taking forever. So

39:28

they got some CI warrant

39:30

officer from installation. So

39:32

they did some extra interviews. The

39:35

warrant officer did the interview, asked me all of these

39:37

different questions. He had a three-hour interview with me. And

39:40

he's like, I'm not supposed to tell you this,

39:42

but I'm going to write the strongest recommendation for

39:44

your clearance to be finalized. During

39:47

that time, I had been

39:50

interviewed, initial interview to go

39:52

to the unit. I

39:54

had an application, and I sent the application right after

39:57

9-11. I was going to

39:59

leave the army, honestly, before I go. 9-11 met me

40:01

these days. So

40:03

I ended up getting my

40:05

clearance because I got kicked out of school. So

40:08

that expedited my clearance. Then I went

40:10

back to phase two and I passed.

40:13

Did you visit her office? I didn't. I was

40:15

like, that lady looks like if she sees me,

40:18

she's going to choke me. You

40:20

made it E7, you went through A-NOC.

40:22

You already have in your mind now

40:24

after 9-11 that you've heard of this other unit out

40:26

there that you'd like to go and try out for.

40:29

What was that process like of applying for it

40:31

and then going to selection? Honestly,

40:34

I've never heard of the unit. They

40:37

were recruiting in Fort Bragg. My

40:40

first time was like, hey, there is a good unit

40:42

recruiting. I think I was an E6

40:44

at that time. There is a unit recruiting, you

40:46

should go. I had no idea

40:49

that the unit exists. I was like, I

40:52

like to tell people, I was really one of

40:54

the dumbest guys in the army. I have no

40:56

idea what's going on in the army. I've heard

40:58

of Delta. I've heard of the Greenberry, the Rangers,

41:00

obviously everybody knows. But I'm like,

41:03

what's this? So when they were recruiting, I

41:07

had gotten married, my wife getting her master's

41:10

from Fayetteville State University

41:13

in Fort Bragg. We just

41:15

bought a condo. I'm like, that's

41:17

it. I made it. Right. I arrived. It's

41:19

the life. So

41:21

when they came and they gave me a packet, I

41:24

took the packet and I ignored it. 9-11 happened. And

41:28

I got another call from the recruiter who

41:30

I spoke about in the book. One of the smartest

41:32

guys I've ever met in my life. And

41:35

he's like, hey, with everything happening,

41:37

we're just checking where is your packet. I

41:40

said, you know what? You'll have it. Like

41:42

within days. I went home that day,

41:44

filled out the entire application, which is a fake application.

41:47

And I said, you know what? I'm going to write

41:49

the right stuff. And you write, you do hand-writing

41:51

stuff and obviously English is your second language.

41:53

So I'm writing and I'm taking my

41:56

time and my hands hurt. And then I

41:58

fed back the packet. like

42:00

a few days after, then

42:03

I get invited to go to selection. I had

42:05

no idea, like what's this about? And

42:08

I think it's part of the selection process

42:10

is, are you willing to take a

42:12

leap of faith? Are you a guy

42:14

who's willing to do something without

42:16

knowing what's in the end? What's in the end?

42:21

And I think it's designed that way. It's

42:23

like, are you willing to, if

42:25

I tell you go out through that door, not knowing what's on the

42:27

other side, are you willing to do? I think that's

42:29

what they were looking for, somebody who's just willing to

42:31

take the risk. So

42:34

I get invited to selection, I go

42:37

to selection, and my wife was pregnant at

42:39

that time. Selection

42:42

was brutal for me. There are some guys

42:44

in selection, they were with me. He

42:47

can tell these guys, like they got from Intel,

42:49

like they know what's happening. They

42:51

know what's next. Of course. Exactly. Yeah. So

42:54

they know what's happening next. And my

42:56

advice to anybody, don't. Just

42:58

go with it. Yeah. Just go with it. Yeah.

43:00

Because when you go with it, you really don't

43:02

know what to expect. When they tell

43:04

you run, run. They tell you

43:06

walk, walk. And they're not gonna tell

43:08

you how much, or how long, or how far. You just

43:10

do it. And don't quit.

43:13

Then you'll make it. So the

43:15

first few days in selection, again, I was doing, I

43:17

came from a tactical, you know, I came from the

43:19

80-second. So in the 80-second, you

43:22

do a lot of land nav. So I'm good with land nav. Land

43:25

navigation. And the

43:28

first few days in selection, I think the first two, three days,

43:30

I think I did everything wrong. Like

43:32

everything they gave me to do, which was

43:34

a lot of land navigation, a lot of, and I'm like, and

43:37

they talk really fast. I don't understand what they're saying.

43:40

And I was like, after two, three days, I go

43:42

and lay down in my

43:45

bunk bed. And I raise my

43:47

legs in the air because they are sore. I'm like,

43:49

what the fuck is wrong with me? Like,

43:51

I'm just doing everything wrong. And

43:54

then I thought, I was like, you know, every problem has

43:56

a solution. I just need to calm down. I need

43:58

to get my shit together. And

44:00

I put it in my mind like these

44:02

guys they asked me to come to selection

44:04

for a reason I must have something

44:07

that they are looking for me So I just need to

44:09

calm the fuck down and just do

44:11

what they need to do without Expecting

44:14

any reason or feedback without expecting any

44:16

feedback. Just do your best and Then

44:19

from day three, I think

44:21

things turned around for me. I'm like, okay, you know what?

44:24

If they asked me to run I'm gonna fucking run I'm

44:27

gonna give it all I have and if I

44:29

didn't if I'm not the first guy Because

44:32

I came again. I came I was like when

44:34

I was in in Germany. I was

44:36

like soldier of the year I was like in the

44:38

82nd I was a guy who runs around the formation

44:40

and annoy the fuck out of everybody because

44:43

you the guy who can run you So I'm

44:45

thinking I'm special I mean you go there and

44:47

everybody they're special right and I'm not But

44:49

you said at the same time if I recall right from

44:51

reading your book that you know There were like special forces

44:53

guys that didn't make it through this selection course We

44:56

had guys again because I think

45:00

When you go to selection thinking you special, yeah,

45:03

it hits you hard when you realize yeah,

45:05

you're not. Yeah, so I'm like, okay I'm

45:07

having this hard time. So let me just

45:10

let me do my best So if

45:12

there is an obstacle course, I'm gonna

45:14

do my best obstacle course in the military in

45:16

general in Air assault school

45:19

in any any honestly any obstacle course is not

45:21

designed for short people Yeah

45:25

So part of this obstacle course I'm

45:28

like I'm gonna I'm coming down

45:30

like an obstacle and I'm like I'm

45:32

holding with one arm I'm like am I gonna reach?

45:35

Like what's there or I'm gonna fall in my ass and

45:38

it's high And you're like and

45:40

this is gonna fucking hurt But again, that's that leap

45:43

of faith and then there is a there

45:45

was like one of the cadres down there I think I don't

45:47

like they felt bad for me or they're like whenever I had

45:49

a guy that fucking short Going through

45:51

the stuff not So some

45:53

guy goes in he's like hey And they

45:55

they have like different names for you. So

45:57

he calls me that name Move

46:00

your fucking leg to the right a bit just

46:02

switch out to the left a bit and

46:05

then just let go man Let go and I'm like man if I

46:07

let go and I fall it's gonna hurt then

46:10

finally again I froze honestly for a bit

46:12

and then finally I let go and I

46:14

landed in another like pipe and but

46:19

None of none of the obstacle course in the army design for

46:21

sure I think the minutiae visit this yeah, yeah Hey

46:25

Adam before we kind of move into

46:27

the you know, I would love to

46:29

ask you about the 98 golf field

46:31

in general Because

46:34

you know and it's 35 now

46:37

that if I pop off 35 about just

46:39

for like any viewers who might be thinking

46:41

about because You know, it's

46:43

rare to go to a tackle position in that job Like

46:45

a lot of people go to you know Listening

46:49

post and you know sit in a nice

46:51

area and and whatnot what what

46:53

was it like for you? word

46:56

was the 82nd using Sigoners

47:00

the way like a sought-a might

47:02

be used where they used did

47:04

you have vehicles was it like

47:07

land-based? What was that kind of?

47:10

Yeah, what was it like to be so we had

47:12

the 82nd of the time was using we had Jamming

47:16

guys we have LLVI which is like

47:18

the low-level voice and stuff guys and We

47:22

have the collector guys in that system

47:24

called the turkey. Okay, which is a truck The

47:27

jamming guys it's with the Telki Whatever

47:30

that stands for but when you turn the jammer on

47:33

it fucking fries your goddamn brain I

47:35

think that's why a lot of thinking guys have

47:37

daughters no son. Yeah I

47:41

was in an LLVI team which is basically

47:43

you jump Supposedly you jump

47:45

into you jump with the scouts and

47:48

you carry your stuff and you go set up a

47:51

High-sight and you do collection That's

47:54

in theory With

47:56

the 82nd or I met Forside

47:59

you guys in Iraq.

48:01

I met a lot of the tactical units in Iraq. Honestly,

48:04

none of them was doing that. So after that,

48:06

when 9-11 happened, if he asked me what the

48:09

80-second Sagan guys were doing, we

48:11

were PMCSing vehicles in the motor

48:13

pool. We just spent a lot of time in the motor

48:15

pool to make sure all our home views

48:17

are lined up. They have

48:19

the, there is no oil drip. It's

48:22

not dripping oil and you fucking inspect the vehicle every

48:25

week, just without you driving the vehicle

48:27

at all. You just inspect it every week because

48:29

that's how you keep the soldiers busy. So

48:32

tactical units are good to learn soldiering,

48:36

but they were not. As a matter of fact,

48:38

if you didn't have a final clearance, it was okay because you

48:40

don't have access to anything. Access

48:42

to the gear? Yeah. So, and even

48:44

the gear you had was tactical gear,

48:47

so you were not really doing a lot of

48:50

things. My

48:53

recommendation to anybody who wanted to

48:55

join that field, still go to a

48:57

tactical unit first because you're going to learn how to soldier. You're

48:59

going to learn how to, where you're in your

49:01

uniform, you're going to learn discipline. Then

49:04

after that, if you go to a strategic assignment, if you go

49:07

to the NSA, I mean you go to the

49:09

NSA and you see like Sagan guys who have never been in a

49:11

regular army unit and you look at them and you're like,

49:15

dude, do you know how to put

49:17

your uniform on? Yeah. But you still

49:19

need to discipline of soldiering. I

49:22

feel like the Saudis really prove

49:24

their worth during the

49:26

GWOT. Do you feel that the

49:28

big army just doesn't understand how

49:30

to employ their Sigyners? Yeah,

49:33

to a certain extent, because again, you fall

49:36

under, and I think that they changed a lot now,

49:38

but I'm talking about things like many years ago. You

49:43

are under a combat brigade team.

49:46

The brigade commander is like, when you go

49:48

tell him, Sigyn team, and

49:50

they get a jump with your scouts, and

49:52

he's like, no, my scouts got

49:54

to do all of these things. Why do I

49:56

need these Sigyn guys? Because he doesn't know. They

49:58

are not, again, it's It's a very, very

50:00

small field in the army. Not

50:03

a lot of people know things about it. They know you're

50:05

gonna put your headset on, you're gonna listen

50:07

to what we don't know. Obviously,

50:13

Sagan is, I mean, there

50:15

is huge arguments between Sagan guys and human

50:17

guys, which one is more- Right. Important,

50:20

I think both of them are important. Obviously,

50:22

after 9-11, the whole thing changed.

50:24

Right. Sagan became, to a

50:27

lot of people, became a lot more crucial

50:30

than human. Again,

50:32

I don't agree or disagree. I think

50:35

you can use both. But

50:39

tracking bad guys through Sagan

50:41

became very efficient

50:44

during the GWOT, and that

50:46

became the game. I've seen human

50:49

guys using Sagan equipment to track

50:52

guys. It just became to the

50:55

trend, I guess. Yeah. When

50:58

you went to selection, did they tell you, or

51:02

were you able to request, or did you know,

51:04

were you gonna continue to be a signals intelligence

51:06

guy, or were they gonna try to bring you into

51:08

the human intelligence side? They don't tell you, and

51:11

my first week, so past

51:14

selection, I think

51:17

we lost about 65 to 70%. I'm

51:20

not gonna get an exact number. Past

51:22

selection, they said, hey, your wife is

51:24

pregnant, you can postpone your PCS. I

51:26

said, no. I don't know if

51:28

the GWOT gonna wait for me. I gotta go. My

51:32

first week in the

51:35

course, it was me, another

51:40

two or three guys. They

51:44

pulled us aside, and they talked about possibility

51:47

of moving us. And

51:49

for me, it was a no starter, because

51:52

I'm like, I just PCS from Fort Bragg to where I'm

51:54

supposed to be. And you guys gonna move me

51:56

again? And my wife has given birth

51:58

in a week or two? I'm not. playing

52:00

that. But they ended up

52:02

the second side trumped

52:05

because we were sitting guys. I

52:07

think if we came from a different MOF it

52:10

would have been more inevitable but they don't

52:12

tell you and honestly you don't know even you don't

52:15

know the structure of the organization till after you

52:18

graduate the course. So during

52:20

the course you're like what

52:22

am I doing? Like why am I here? Again

52:25

they break the course into phases

52:28

and every phase is different something different

52:30

they're like hey next week you're gonna just

52:33

make sure you pack your bags

52:36

for being in the jungle.

52:39

Then you pack and you don't know where you're going you

52:41

don't know what's going on. And it's part it's designed that

52:43

for you not knowing what would be

52:45

there and I think it plays with

52:47

your psychology. A lot of us in

52:50

the military when you take a PT test they

52:52

can't. I mean you do a new PT test

52:54

and you count one two three where

52:57

in that community they don't. So you do

52:59

push-ups and they don't

53:01

tell you they say start and

53:03

you keep doing it and they stop and you're

53:05

like okay how many did they do did they pass? So

53:08

they trying to select people are

53:10

not looking for feedback. They're

53:12

not looking for validation. They know

53:15

it's psychological. If you have the people

53:17

who was looking for validation I think

53:19

that that could become like risky. Of the

53:23

training pipeline that you went through after

53:25

selection what were your favorite and least

53:27

favorite aspects of it? It's a

53:30

good question. So I'll talk

53:33

about that not classified

53:35

stuff. I

53:37

love fucking crashing course. You

53:40

go and you like you drive

53:43

the defensive drive and course and

53:46

you crash course and you drive like a

53:48

maniac and I'm like man this

53:50

is just like Egypt. It's like a

53:52

traffic circle right? I'm like I'm back

53:54

home. So that those some of the

54:00

those defensive driving courses were really

54:03

cool. My least favorite was the lack of fucking sleep.

54:06

Because there are some

54:08

tasks you do as a team, but there

54:10

are a lot of tasks you do as a single team. And

54:13

as a single team, you're like, am

54:16

I doing the right thing, am I not doing the right thing?

54:19

What time do I need to wake up? And

54:22

then there are things that you're doing, and in

54:24

order for you to do it right, some guys

54:26

would like just finish it quickly, go to

54:29

sleep by 10, wake up at 6 the next day, they

54:31

got their eight hours of sleep. But

54:33

we had guys who were like, no, I'm going to stay on it.

54:36

And they said, did I do it right? Can I do it better?

54:38

And you keep doing it better and better and better

54:40

and better, and then you realize, well, you

54:42

have only two hours to sleep. And

54:45

you sleep those three hours, and then you wake up, and you do the lack of

54:47

sleep. And then my

54:49

wife just had our first

54:51

born baby, and

54:53

I'm like, I'm not going home, or I'm going home just to sleep

54:55

for a couple of hours. So

54:58

my wife needed that family support, and we didn't

55:00

have anybody, we didn't have anybody. We

55:02

didn't have family in the US. So I think

55:05

after three months after my first

55:07

daughter was born, my wife took her and

55:10

went to Egypt until I finished the course. And then

55:12

she came right before graduation. Two

55:15

months after I graduated, again, this was during 9-11.

55:19

Two months after graduation, I went to my first deployment.

55:22

So my wife ended up traveling again, not

55:25

because we didn't have that family

55:27

support structure. And it's snowing,

55:30

and she had a baby, and literally she would

55:32

call other unit guys'

55:34

wives, and she's like, I'm really, really

55:36

sorry, but it's snowing, and I cannot take

55:38

my daughter out, my car is stuck, can you

55:40

get me diapers? And we did have other

55:43

family members who were going

55:45

to buy diapers and bring it to the house.

55:48

So I'm not going

55:50

to say the unit as a structure, because we didn't

55:52

have that family support group, like regular men do, but

55:55

we had the guys went through the course with me,

55:57

and we became like a family. one

56:00

of the one of the wives to

56:02

do that. But yeah, at least

56:04

favorite thing is lack

56:07

of sleep and again drive them like crazy. I

56:09

think I love that shit. Yeah. So you get

56:12

qualified, you get your certificate and all that good

56:14

stuff and you said you're out the door in

56:16

two months? Yeah. Where abouts

56:18

are they sending you? So

56:20

I went to the Middle East. I

56:23

went to a golf country. We

56:25

talked about it in the book briefly.

56:28

But it's like you go

56:30

to college and when you graduate college you realize that

56:32

you don't know shit. I'm like

56:34

man I just went training for like you know a year and

56:37

I was like I thought I was on top of my game

56:40

and I deploy and my first deployment one

56:44

of the guys who was the class before me. I'll

56:49

call him Mike for this. But

56:52

he used to be driving. I'm sitting next

56:54

to him with the equipment and

56:56

he's telling me so click

56:59

on this icon, open

57:01

this drop-down menu and I'm like is

57:04

he fucking real? Like is he seeing what I'm seeing or

57:06

he's just he had it in his

57:09

memory. Like he knew the equipment inside

57:11

out. He spoke Arabic, he looked like

57:13

an Arab guy, he was Mexican American

57:16

and he went through like step

57:19

by step and then I realized and all

57:21

the stuff I've learned is

57:24

nothing. I'm now learning. Yeah. Then the guys you

57:26

deploy with first they teach you and

57:28

they are patient enough to like okay this

57:31

English is like a language guy. We're taking him

57:33

step by step to teach him. But

57:36

then I was helping them by like going to

57:38

the walking with them

57:40

in the streets and speaking Arabic. And then I was like

57:42

hey man just you don't have to talk. They're

57:44

gonna think we're both just Arab guys. Let's move some

57:47

shisha together. Did you you know

57:50

obviously Egyptian you know

57:52

that has is very

57:55

distinct. Did you practice at

57:57

all or did you work on you know

57:59

like different dialects in order to sort of

58:01

try to fit in more in

58:03

different places? Yeah, so in some of the

58:06

deployments, so

58:08

this first deployment was extremely funny. We

58:10

had a gate guard in our house and

58:14

the guy was like, if you didn't

58:16

speak Arabic, I would have thought you're an Arab. But

58:19

once you speak Arabic, I didn't think you're an Arab because your

58:21

Arabic is broken. And I was like, that's

58:23

the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. But

58:25

then you pick, you talk to the guards, you talk to

58:27

people in the street. And

58:29

then you start picking, there are very

58:31

distinct words from

58:34

one dialect to another. So in deployments, I

58:36

did that. To the point, if I was there for like

58:38

two or three months, after two or three

58:40

months, I could carry a conversation with somebody. They

58:43

would think I'm local. Okay,

58:45

so you're not just talking

58:47

about the colloquialisms, like shlonic,

58:49

but also the Egyptian,

58:53

right? Which? Yeah.

58:56

And then they say, gah,

58:59

other they say, ja. So you

59:01

pick those things. And then the different

59:03

words. And then, for example, every,

59:06

like the country, for some

59:08

reason, the word money, it has different,

59:10

there is a different word for it in every, so in...

59:13

Fagus. Fagus in

59:16

a lot of the Arab countries. And then the

59:18

country that we were in, there was another country that said

59:20

zalat. And zalat means rock.

59:22

Yeah. And you hear it, and

59:24

I'm like, why are these people talking about rocks? And

59:27

then you realize, actually, they use it for money. And

59:30

then mafari in the Levantine dialect,

59:32

it's for flute, for money. So

59:35

you start picking those things in different countries. And

59:37

then when you're listening to them, you'll be

59:39

like, huh, that guy is from

59:41

Lebanon, or that guy is from Syria, or that guy

59:43

is from Yemen. You pick, you pick

59:45

in those things. Yeah.

59:48

What can you say about that first deployment that you went

59:50

on as far as like, now you're, essentially

59:52

you're an army spy, and you're

59:54

working a counter-terrorism mission. I

59:57

mean, what did you think and feel about all

59:59

that? So you

1:00:01

know when like after 9-11 I think

1:00:03

anybody in the military deployed they felt

1:00:06

they are in the top of the world.

1:00:08

I'm fighting this war,

1:00:11

I'm catching bad guys, I'm

1:00:13

gonna go catch all these bad guys and make sure

1:00:15

this doesn't happen again. And then

1:00:17

you're deploying with one of the most unique units in

1:00:19

the military that a lot of people don't know.

1:00:22

And then the

1:00:24

status I was deploying in, in

1:00:27

that deployment I

1:00:29

was flying and there is an older American

1:00:32

lady sat next to me. And

1:00:35

you gotta love older American ladies because they love to

1:00:38

talk. So that lady is asking me

1:00:40

all of these questions and I'm like, is she

1:00:42

testing me? Is she trying to figure

1:00:44

out my cover? Is she... Then

1:00:46

you're like okay you know nice lady let's just

1:00:48

move on. But then you go and

1:00:50

as you're learning from other guys what to do

1:00:52

and then I broke

1:00:55

equipment. I was like, infamous for breaking

1:00:57

equipment. So I'm running

1:00:59

the equipment more than a lot of... Like we had guys

1:01:01

obviously they like you know I'm gonna just run the equipment

1:01:03

from now. I would take equipment out and run

1:01:05

equipment and take it to the dust, take it to

1:01:08

the heat. And honestly it

1:01:10

wasn't even intentionally testing it,

1:01:12

I was like using it. So it

1:01:14

would break. And I would call somebody back home in

1:01:16

the States and say, hey the

1:01:18

equipment broke. And he's like again,

1:01:20

we had guys I used to think

1:01:22

really they looking at the menu but it was in

1:01:24

their head. Yeah. So

1:01:26

I was like again I gotta up my game. I gotta... these

1:01:29

guys know the equipment inside out. And

1:01:31

then you go and you're like okay

1:01:33

now we're going after bad guys who

1:01:35

did this. So you really really feel

1:01:37

like proud and happy

1:01:39

and you're like okay I just finished this selection

1:01:42

and course. We started

1:01:44

too many people and we ended up very few.

1:01:47

So you are on top of the world now.

1:01:49

And you're like... Then

1:01:51

to see deployments after they get

1:01:54

hit upside your head to realize

1:01:56

I'm not invisible. I need to come

1:01:58

back to the ground. You cannot be in the... And then in

1:02:01

2003, of course, Iraq happens. Were

1:02:07

you over in the country, I mean, looking for Saddam

1:02:09

and his boys? So after

1:02:12

that deployment, the first deployment, I

1:02:15

came back. I

1:02:17

came back, I wanted to

1:02:20

say, a month after I came back, you're

1:02:22

like, hey, we need to go to Iraq. And I was like, yeah,

1:02:25

send me. I'm going. So

1:02:27

I was in

1:02:29

one of the, so we had some guys

1:02:31

in the invasion from the unit. And

1:02:34

then after that, I was the first deployment after

1:02:36

that. It was me

1:02:38

and four other

1:02:40

people. And we

1:02:42

were in the group looking for Saddam. We

1:02:45

were attached to Delta. We

1:02:48

stayed in Baghdad for a bit. I

1:02:50

get to see the lines

1:02:52

that Saddam's kids had in their house.

1:02:55

I'm like, why do you fucking have lines in the house? And

1:02:58

then obviously when Saddam's sons ran away, they

1:03:00

left the lines with no food. I'm

1:03:03

like, now lines are hungry in the kids. So

1:03:05

we stayed in one of those houses. And

1:03:08

then my first day in

1:03:10

country, in Iraq, I

1:03:12

ended up me and another guy. You know him, Robbie.

1:03:17

He and I went out on a mission. And

1:03:19

I think in that mission, we hit

1:03:22

maybe 10 to 15 houses. And

1:03:24

obviously, we're like night missions. We go out in the

1:03:27

evening. And

1:03:29

there was this

1:03:31

older guy with us in

1:03:33

the vehicle in the Panther. And I'm

1:03:35

like, man, these old cars are major ways of fucking out with us.

1:03:39

And I was like, again,

1:03:41

I was like, I think 30 years old. And I'm

1:03:43

like, you know, I'm in shape. So

1:03:46

we go out and then Robbie comes to me and he's

1:03:48

like, hey, man, you might want to be

1:03:50

careful when you talk to this old guy. He's a general. I'm

1:03:53

like, why the fuck big general going out with us in

1:03:56

a mission? And I'm like, yeah,

1:03:58

whatever, man. Then we go

1:04:00

back, I think we hit like maybe 10 houses

1:04:02

at that time. Then

1:04:05

when we go back, General

1:04:07

Stan McRistle stands in front

1:04:09

of everybody, takes his flag vest

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like, probably right. The guy's a general. And

1:05:53

I was talking to him like, he's my buddy. But

1:05:56

then you then the Delta guys honestly

1:05:58

were awesome. have four

1:06:00

or five missions with them, they

1:06:02

build that trust and be like, hey man, we're firing out in

1:06:04

the bags, you want to come with us and fire

1:06:07

some rounds downrange. So

1:06:09

we, I

1:06:12

was there for about three months, was

1:06:15

in Baghdad for a bit, then we went to Tikrit. From

1:06:18

listening to a lot of the chatters and from being

1:06:21

involved in interrogations, I was like,

1:06:23

Saddam gotta be in Tikrit, he came to be anywhere

1:06:25

else. Right. Then

1:06:28

me and another guy went to

1:06:30

Tikrit, then Rabi and another

1:06:32

person went to Mosul and

1:06:35

we had an analyst. I think

1:06:37

he went to Mosul with the other two guys because he didn't come with us. And

1:06:41

then we ended up in Tikrit. I think

1:06:43

I came back a week or

1:06:46

two weeks before they called Saddam and I was

1:06:48

like, what the fuck? I didn't even say it.

1:06:50

So you were operating some of the technology to

1:06:53

try to find him and the Delta guys were

1:06:55

actioning the targets that you were able to find.

1:06:57

We were doing, so we were doing, we

1:06:59

were doing a lot of different things, honestly. So we were doing

1:07:02

technology, we were doing some

1:07:04

interrogations. We had in

1:07:06

the task force, we had other

1:07:08

human intelligence attached to us, whether OGA or

1:07:10

DIA. I mean, we had, and everybody was

1:07:12

coming with, hey, there is a source

1:07:14

said, Saddam goes to this house every

1:07:17

Friday morning to

1:07:19

sit with this family and we would go hit the house. We

1:07:22

would go stage overnight somewhere to hit the house

1:07:24

at three o'clock in the morning and Saddam was

1:07:26

not there. But it

1:07:28

was, second intelligence, human intelligence,

1:07:30

it was all kinds of interrogations, everything

1:07:33

you can think of. All the resources

1:07:35

were going against that, trying

1:07:37

to find the guy. And

1:07:40

then me and another guy were

1:07:43

going out, so it was four of us, four operators and

1:07:45

one analyst. The four operators, me

1:07:47

and another guy who was half Lebanese,

1:07:50

half Irish American, he

1:07:52

and I used to go out a lot with the Delta guys. During

1:07:55

the day, we would do, run our

1:07:57

equipment, do everything, then in the evening we would go

1:07:59

out. with them, with the Delta guys

1:08:01

in Hetch. The other guy

1:08:04

was fast-rope and on top

1:08:06

of some houses with them. I was

1:08:08

going out with them in different locations, but we were

1:08:10

doing both. The technical

1:08:12

stuff and just going

1:08:14

out and Hetch as well. I know

1:08:16

this is, you know,

1:08:18

so we've been in these wars for about two

1:08:20

years, two and a half years now. For

1:08:23

you guys, is the technology changing

1:08:25

quite a bit? Is

1:08:28

it like, because I know there were

1:08:30

significant changes over time, but

1:08:32

are you guys already starting to see that

1:08:35

where these contractors,

1:08:38

people like, where they're like, oh, like,

1:08:40

are you sending requirements back? Like, we need something

1:08:42

that does this or whatever. Absolutely.

1:08:45

We were actually tracking and it

1:08:47

was really interesting because what we're

1:08:49

seeing as technology changes, we

1:08:52

had guys who were sitting back home and like, hey

1:08:55

man, now these guys were using push

1:08:57

to talk. I think they're going to use cell

1:08:59

phones. Well, Iraq didn't have cell phones at that time,

1:09:01

so they had high power cordless

1:09:03

phones. But these cordless phones

1:09:05

with like a big antenna can go like 100K, 100

1:09:08

kilometer. Then they were

1:09:11

like, okay, they're building the GSM network in Iraq,

1:09:13

so eventually these guys will use that.

1:09:16

So there were like engineers, there were guys in

1:09:18

the government, whether military

1:09:20

or non-military, they were thinking

1:09:22

ahead, which I think one

1:09:24

of the best things that, 9-11 was

1:09:26

a horrible thing, but it brought some good things

1:09:28

too because it made us advance

1:09:31

with technology. It made us think ahead. It

1:09:33

made us predict. Where we

1:09:35

talked about earlier, hey, do

1:09:38

you guys need Arabic? No, we don't need Arabic.

1:09:41

Nobody was predicting ahead. 9-11 made people like

1:09:43

think, okay, the bad guys, what are they

1:09:45

going to use next? Let's be

1:09:47

ahead of them. And I think we were ahead of

1:09:49

them for a bit. Unfortunately,

1:09:54

I think these guys

1:09:56

started catching on. And then

1:09:58

they were like, okay, well, we get caught. through

1:10:01

this technology let's go back to

1:10:03

the old technology. People

1:10:05

can find us through smartphones because smartphones

1:10:08

back then there was no smartphones but now

1:10:10

I'm assuming there are

1:10:12

guys who like I'm gonna use this old Nokia 111

1:10:15

or 1011 phone that

1:10:19

I bought for $10 that doesn't have

1:10:21

emails doesn't have GPS doesn't have

1:10:23

these doesn't have so it goes back and forth

1:10:25

yeah but yeah we were trying to

1:10:27

learn it was it was really interesting

1:10:29

like watching both Iraq

1:10:32

and Afghanistan the enemy adapt

1:10:35

to American

1:10:37

techniques and you know

1:10:39

sometimes they'd get it right you know they'd be

1:10:41

like because if they didn't understand like ISR platforms

1:10:43

they might say oh well we're

1:10:45

getting bomb because we're wearing metal they can

1:10:47

they can sense the metal but

1:10:50

then with like with phones you know

1:10:52

when they start plugging charms in and

1:10:55

things like that it's you know it's

1:10:57

really fascinating how just how quickly some

1:10:59

some of the things they picked up

1:11:01

on yeah absolutely the other thing to

1:11:03

you it's

1:11:08

for some reason during that at that

1:11:10

time and people might go and say well you're talking about

1:11:12

these things now well back then it's

1:11:15

nobody knew like exactly how we were doing it

1:11:17

but you have the TTPs but you

1:11:19

had like you know congressman or people like in TV

1:11:21

or whatever going and saying well this is

1:11:23

how we found that right let me tell you exactly yeah

1:11:25

by stuff yeah how we found the guy yeah and then

1:11:27

all of a sudden these

1:11:29

comms will drop yeah and they're like who the

1:11:32

fuck just talked then

1:11:34

we start seeing guys mixing

1:11:37

their phones yeah bad guys just

1:11:39

mixing points yeah in

1:11:41

terrorist training camps I

1:11:44

think we didn't have any I think

1:11:46

it used to have like this box everybody

1:11:49

drops his phone going in they

1:11:51

go do the training they come up everybody grabs

1:11:53

the phone and just move on so

1:11:55

you could not find okay you know like

1:11:57

now I use to

1:12:00

listen to Jack on this number. That

1:12:02

doesn't sound like Jack. Who's this

1:12:04

guy? And then that just keeps

1:12:06

you going confused and then you realize after

1:12:08

two, three weeks, oh,

1:12:11

it's Dave. And then

1:12:13

two days after, it's not Dave anymore. Oh,

1:12:16

it's Adam. So it

1:12:18

was like, who's going to be smarter than who?

1:12:21

So the combination between human, that's why

1:12:23

I believe we need all the ants. Yeah.

1:12:26

Having human guys, having singing guys. So you had human

1:12:29

guys on the ground. They say, you know what? This

1:12:31

guy swapped phones and

1:12:33

this is how they do it. Yeah. And then

1:12:35

you start realizing, okay, well, if I have the

1:12:37

10 phones, then

1:12:40

I can do this and I can sift through it and I

1:12:42

can do process of elimination. And

1:12:44

then without

1:12:47

giving away any TTT,

1:12:52

but you might change your phone, but

1:12:54

your entire family's not going to change their phone. Right. Right.

1:12:56

And I'll find you somewhere else. I'll find

1:12:58

you through your girlfriend. Yeah.

1:13:02

Yeah. They got savvy. That was interesting. I

1:13:04

remember one guy would, you

1:13:06

know, high value target would like, anytime

1:13:09

he wanted to make a call, he'd get on

1:13:11

like his motorcycle drive, you

1:13:13

know, ride someplace, standing from the same

1:13:15

compound or around the same compound, make

1:13:18

his calls. So, so from

1:13:20

a significant perspective, that guy

1:13:22

losing that, that guy losing that compound. You know,

1:13:24

you know what? What's really dangerous is when we,

1:13:26

and I used to see this a lot, when

1:13:29

we think we're smarter than everybody else, when you

1:13:31

think you are the smartest guy in the room, you are

1:13:33

the dumbest guy in the room. Yeah. So we

1:13:35

used to think these guys are not sophisticated.

1:13:37

They're not smart. Then I mean,

1:13:40

we have these guys were like

1:13:42

in their emails, they used to not send emails. They just

1:13:44

put the email in the draft box.

1:13:48

And guess what? We have general officers after that

1:13:51

when they have mistress, they doing

1:13:54

that. So they learned actually our own

1:13:56

guys learned from the bad guys how

1:13:58

to, and it's an, this is. public

1:14:00

record. But they were

1:14:02

always looking at, because these guys are

1:14:04

not dumb, they are like, okay, so-and-so

1:14:06

just got killed, let's

1:14:08

do an AR. And maybe

1:14:11

they don't call it AR, they call it something else. But

1:14:13

they go through the same thing in process, and they're

1:14:15

like, you know what, they

1:14:18

found Jack because Jack

1:14:21

lives in this area and he wants to change. And

1:14:24

they'll change. And so we have to be a step

1:14:26

ahead. And the only way we can

1:14:28

be a step ahead if we have the

1:14:32

cooperation and the collaboration of the different

1:14:34

ends. Unfortunately, I

1:14:36

feel we were

1:14:38

on a honeymoon after 9-11, where

1:14:40

the military and the CIA and the FBI

1:14:42

and the Treasury, everybody worked well together. And

1:14:45

we were all looking out for each other. And

1:14:47

if I saw you downrange, I

1:14:49

didn't care what patch you have

1:14:51

in your shoulder, I didn't care if you

1:14:53

are green, black, or white, I didn't care about anything. I

1:14:56

think towards the end

1:14:58

of my career, I started to think back of, man,

1:15:01

I'm C-I-N, you're not so fucking- The Fyftons

1:15:03

building. Exactly. So everybody went back to, hey,

1:15:05

I'm better than you, no, I'm better than

1:15:07

you, no, I'm going to keep the- My

1:15:09

ops are more secret than your ops. Exactly.

1:15:13

Exactly. We're not going to share information.

1:15:15

You talked about this in your book,

1:15:17

where people are not communicating

1:15:19

well enough. Which, by

1:15:21

the way, I do commend you for

1:15:24

your book and how you're trying

1:15:26

to show people how to learn from,

1:15:29

again, we did this, we did it this

1:15:31

way, we can learn that, how to do

1:15:33

it differently. So all of these things

1:15:35

is like, I think, hopefully,

1:15:38

we don't go through another big event

1:15:41

to bring us back together. I think we

1:15:44

should reconsider how we're doing

1:15:46

business and just start

1:15:48

sharing more information. On that

1:15:50

note, in addition to the technological piece, I'd really

1:15:52

like to hear you talk a little bit about

1:15:55

the people, because you've read about that in your

1:15:57

book, a bit about the people in this unit

1:15:59

that- type of people who end up there

1:16:01

what it's like working with some of these guys

1:16:03

were i mean they felt like very colorful characters

1:16:06

actually uh...

1:16:09

i'll see in in and

1:16:11

yet in the special operation

1:16:13

command or in the military in general your

1:16:16

most important after that i mean it uh...

1:16:19

you could have the best equipment in the planet you can have

1:16:22

the best weapons in the planet if you don't have the

1:16:24

right people sadly

1:16:26

i feel there are some higher

1:16:31

commander they say this but they don't really believe

1:16:34

it but they keep saying

1:16:36

it it breathes well it breathes extremely well

1:16:38

if you say in it maybe you should

1:16:41

behave differently maybe you should give more having

1:16:44

uh... lower enlisted guys a

1:16:46

percentage of lower enlisted guys on food

1:16:49

stamps is extremely unacceptable uh...

1:16:51

you shouldn't have guys fighting for you uh...

1:16:54

worrying about how they're gonna feed their families but

1:16:56

to go to the unit for

1:17:00

some reason i think that the way how they do

1:17:02

the selection process and i give that's

1:17:05

the psychologist a lot of credit because

1:17:07

i think the psychological profiling they do to

1:17:10

bring guys in somehow it

1:17:12

brings us the right guys to that

1:17:14

environment and i'm not sure what i'm not sure

1:17:16

what psychological profile

1:17:19

they do that but we have guys that like i

1:17:21

said when i went through the court so

1:17:24

in the first in the beginning of the court they have guys go

1:17:26

and they uh... think of the

1:17:28

the beginning of the end of the first week

1:17:30

so they give you a week to do a

1:17:33

powerpoint presentation uh... as an intro

1:17:35

about yourself and again

1:17:37

i'm like you know i'm a guy who was born

1:17:39

in egypt came to the u.s. uh... not

1:17:42

speaking english five hundred dollars borrowed i

1:17:44

got to be a fucking rock star then

1:17:46

you go and you sit and you go through

1:17:49

and i think i was like the

1:17:52

end of the

1:17:54

briefing and the first guy goes there and

1:17:57

he's like i was the first uh... guy

1:18:00

that got his picture on a milk

1:18:02

carton because he was kidnapped. His father

1:18:04

kidnapped him and took him out

1:18:07

of country, took him to the Middle East, and

1:18:10

his mom was looking for him. So his

1:18:12

mom thought, how do I find him? And

1:18:14

she got this idea and she's like, I'm going to

1:18:16

put his name and picture on a milk

1:18:19

carton. So he goes there and he says

1:18:21

this and he grew up in the Middle East and his grandmother raised

1:18:23

him and then he went to live in Libya for a bit

1:18:26

and he sat there and was like, I'm

1:18:28

nobody. And then the second

1:18:30

guy goes and he's like, I

1:18:33

was the mayor of my town for one

1:18:35

day during the revolution. He

1:18:38

came from the Eastern Bloc. And I'm

1:18:40

like, OK. Then

1:18:43

another guy goes and he's like, oh,

1:18:45

I grew up in South America. This

1:18:47

is a white guy. He's like, I grew up in South

1:18:49

America. I speak Portuguese, Spanish, French, and I'm

1:18:51

from Alaska and I'm going to do like, you know, I

1:18:55

go like, he does this

1:18:57

snow fishing. And I'm like, dude,

1:19:00

I'm going to go speak after all of these guys. Then

1:19:02

a girl goes and she's like, I went to West Point

1:19:05

and I'm a world class swimmer and I

1:19:07

can swim and run better than all of you guys. I'm

1:19:10

smarter than all of you. And I'm like, so

1:19:12

you see those things and then we'll have a

1:19:14

guy. He goes and he's like, I

1:19:17

lost my eye in training. I have one eye and

1:19:20

they didn't kick me out of the army because I fought the

1:19:22

army. The army wanted to kick

1:19:24

him out to medically board them and

1:19:27

he fight. Ranger

1:19:29

qualified, went

1:19:32

going through the course, did very well in selection

1:19:34

with one eye. And he like,

1:19:38

oh, Adam, and you complain about you being fucking short. So

1:19:41

you have nothing on those guys. And

1:19:43

then these guys, like I said, be humble the

1:19:45

fuck out of you, males and females. We

1:19:48

have one, she went like cross country skiing

1:19:50

in Europe and she rode her bike all

1:19:53

over Europe and she's a war on officer.

1:19:56

So you look at the group of people you

1:19:58

are with and you're like. okay,

1:20:00

I really need to work harder. So

1:20:02

it encourages you to work harder. And then when you

1:20:05

deploy with these guys, you realize, okay,

1:20:07

these guys speak five languages, Adam,

1:20:09

you're native Arabic speaker, good for you. And

1:20:12

you can barely speak English. Great. So

1:20:16

really working with them and deploying

1:20:18

with them. And

1:20:20

then you have the guys who can build

1:20:22

computers on their own, they sit in their

1:20:24

basement. And then a lot of people think, well,

1:20:26

he's just a nerd. I'm like, yeah, that

1:20:28

nerd runs his two miles in 11 plus

1:20:31

minutes. That nerd can

1:20:33

wait, lift more than you. And

1:20:36

that nerd looks like a really, really nice cool

1:20:39

guy, but he can punch the fuck out of you and kill you.

1:20:41

Or the guy I said in the book, he looks

1:20:44

like Elton John. He went to Ranger school

1:20:46

and he was fooling. And

1:20:48

he passed Ranger school. I'm like, ah. So

1:20:50

you see all of these things and you're like, okay, well, this

1:20:52

is, this unit is made out of very unique

1:20:54

characters and I was lucky, unfortunate, to be

1:20:57

one of those, hopefully unique characters.

1:20:59

Do you find, because it's like, these sound

1:21:01

like very like intelligent and driven, motivated people,

1:21:03

like do you find that they have these

1:21:05

sort of like eccentric hobbies and things like

1:21:07

this that they? Yes. Yeah,

1:21:11

like the guy with the one

1:21:13

eye, for example, he, when we,

1:21:15

during the course, they'll tell you

1:21:18

like, you know, I

1:21:20

don't want to get into any like sources and

1:21:24

methods, but let's say they tell you like build,

1:21:27

do a concealment device, something to conceal something. So

1:21:30

I'll go buy a box of chocolate and I'll unseal

1:21:32

it and put things in, he will

1:21:35

build the table. And

1:21:37

he'll fucking, and he has all the,

1:21:39

the corporate and stuff and he'll build

1:21:41

the table and he'll have the table delivered

1:21:43

to your house and he'll send

1:21:45

you like step by step how to get

1:21:47

your things out of the table. And I'm like, that

1:21:50

guy just built a fucking table. Like

1:21:52

I said, you have guys who like,

1:21:54

hey man, I'm not I'm

1:21:57

just going to take that place and trail all

1:21:59

the way. for like a month. And

1:22:02

you're like, that guy just walks for a month. And

1:22:05

what do I have on these guys? So those

1:22:07

are the guys, those are the hobbies and you're

1:22:09

like, hey Adam, what do you do?

1:22:11

I like to read. And

1:22:13

I'm like, okay, good for

1:22:15

you. But yeah, they all

1:22:18

had, and honestly, those

1:22:20

things help in the mission. And those

1:22:22

are the things that they look at you

1:22:24

and look for selection. So if you're going to

1:22:27

deploy and you're going to, and you're saying,

1:22:29

hey, you're a carpenter, you're going

1:22:31

to be able to do carpenters. For

1:22:33

me, if I'm going

1:22:35

and I'm saying, like, I can't go and

1:22:38

say, hey guys, I'm a private security guy. Okay,

1:22:41

Mr. Five One, 125 pounds. You can't be

1:22:43

a private security guy, but I can be a driver.

1:22:45

I can be a guy who blends in. I'm

1:22:48

very comfortable with going to any environment. I

1:22:51

can go to like during training, I

1:22:53

went to areas where this is after 9-11. And

1:22:56

as an Arab looking

1:22:58

guy, you go into a hotel, telling

1:23:00

that lady working in the hotel, I need the

1:23:04

layout of the hotel. And

1:23:06

I need every exit, I need every camera. I

1:23:08

need everything because I'm chasing

1:23:10

the hotel. And it takes a

1:23:12

talent. And it takes

1:23:14

that very friendly, comfortable environment to

1:23:16

make her feel comfortable, to

1:23:19

give you the information. And the

1:23:21

lady did. She gives me absolutely everything

1:23:23

to ask about. And

1:23:26

the thing is that, I mean, another thing

1:23:28

around this time frame I want to ask

1:23:30

you, we're probably shooting forward a couple years

1:23:33

from Iraq and Saddam. But

1:23:35

being deployed to the Levant

1:23:37

during the 2000s, what

1:23:39

can you tell us about that? So

1:23:42

that was after Iraq, right?

1:23:44

So one of the things to

1:23:46

during Iraq, what I talked

1:23:48

about too in the book is

1:23:51

Iraq was the

1:23:53

cool things for the bad guys, the cool place for

1:23:55

the bad guys. So

1:23:57

when we were in Iraq, we started noticing, like,

1:23:59

I thought, I was helping with

1:24:01

a lot of interrogation. I started seeing

1:24:03

people from Morocco, coming all the

1:24:06

way from Morocco, coming all the way from Mali, through

1:24:08

North Africa, all the way to Somalia,

1:24:11

crossing to Yemen, from Yemen to

1:24:13

Saudi, making it all the way to Iraq. Then

1:24:15

we started seeing a

1:24:17

lot of, this is during the

1:24:20

beginning of what's known now as ISIS.

1:24:24

Back then it used to be al-Nusra Front. This

1:24:26

is where it started. We

1:24:29

started seeing all of these characters coming from

1:24:31

everywhere, coming from Chashni, coming

1:24:34

from Bosnia. I was in Bosnia

1:24:36

a few years before, and I used to

1:24:38

call it, those are Muslim life. They

1:24:41

think Ramadan is three months. They didn't

1:24:43

know anything about anything. All of a sudden they go into a

1:24:45

fight. So they

1:24:49

got turned into extremists because of all of this.

1:24:53

Then we started seeing, and we were like, how are

1:24:55

these people coming to Iraq? Are

1:24:57

they coming from Africa to where, to here?

1:25:00

Then we started deploying people. Like

1:25:04

McChrystal said, it takes a network to catch a network

1:25:06

or to defeat a network. So we started

1:25:08

deploying people to West Africa, to

1:25:10

East Africa, to the Levant. Then

1:25:14

I was one of the first

1:25:16

guys from my squadron to deploy,

1:25:18

I was the first one to deploy to the Levant. At

1:25:21

that time, I go there

1:25:24

and the chief of station, my

1:25:27

first day there, he's like, initially,

1:25:30

so to go back, the unit said,

1:25:32

hey man, the agency wanted some of

1:25:34

you guys, so I'm going thinking,

1:25:36

you know what, the agency asked for me, or

1:25:38

they asked for us, and they sent me. I'm

1:25:41

going there to a friendly environment. So

1:25:45

I go there. In

1:25:48

my second day, the chief gets

1:25:50

me and this other guy from the other side

1:25:52

of our unit, and he's like, hey man,

1:25:54

I've never asked for you. I

1:25:56

don't need you here. I have my own people. You

1:25:59

have a moment. to prove why you should be here

1:26:01

or I'm sending you home. So

1:26:04

I'm like, holy shit. That's wild.

1:26:06

I just got a warning. If

1:26:09

I don't prove myself within a month, I'm

1:26:12

going to go back to my unit with

1:26:14

my tail between my legs and

1:26:16

saying, hey, guys, I got fucking kicked out of this country.

1:26:19

Like I said, I went thinking, this is a

1:26:21

friendly environment. These guys are the one they want

1:26:24

me. So I

1:26:27

was like, I got to fucking work my ass off. So

1:26:30

I start. This

1:26:33

was, by the way, it was

1:26:37

about 7, 8 months after I was shot. So

1:26:40

here I am. I'm still recovering from

1:26:43

a gunshot wound. They're

1:26:45

sending me there to like, hey, this is a good

1:26:47

place for you to recover. I

1:26:49

said, decent friendly environment. And

1:26:52

the agency will be nice to you. Well,

1:26:55

I go there and it's not. And

1:26:57

then this is one of the extremely high

1:26:59

threat CI places where you

1:27:02

have surveillance left and right. You

1:27:05

have surveillance reflected from the day I arrived. I

1:27:07

walked to the embassy the first day with my

1:27:09

diplomatic passport. And the Marine Guard is like, did

1:27:11

you find this in the street? Because I

1:27:13

looked like a local. And I'm like, this

1:27:15

is not a friendly place, man. So nothing was going

1:27:18

my way. So I was like, well, I

1:27:20

got to really work hard. I

1:27:22

start developing like

1:27:25

a target. Start developing a

1:27:27

target list. Start doing things in the

1:27:29

embassy, outside of the embassy. After

1:27:32

a month when we were supposed to go back to the chief to

1:27:35

brief him, I go

1:27:37

me and this other guy from the organization

1:27:39

but from the other side. And

1:27:42

the other guys like, hey, man,

1:27:44

we got only 30 minutes with the

1:27:46

chief. You go first. Because it's going

1:27:48

to take you five minutes, then I'll brief. That's

1:27:50

all right. So I go. So

1:27:54

I start briefing the guy. My

1:27:56

five minutes became 25 minutes. only

1:28:00

five minutes. After I finished the

1:28:02

25 minutes, the reason it

1:28:04

was 25 minutes because the chief kept asking, how

1:28:07

did you get this? How did you get that? Who

1:28:09

else is in the network? How can we defeat this?

1:28:12

How can we prosecute that? How

1:28:14

did you really do this? And I was like, well actually I

1:28:16

went in the street and I pretend like I'm a travel agency.

1:28:19

Literally I was like, hey man, I work for a travel

1:28:21

agency from Egypt and I need to get to this

1:28:24

location. One of the places we were looking for,

1:28:26

we were looking for guys coming through that country,

1:28:31

going to Iraq and

1:28:34

these guys were using

1:28:36

very specific travel agencies in

1:28:38

that country. And literally I would go in

1:28:41

the street and say, hey man, I'm looking for this, literally

1:28:43

I was like asked. Because again,

1:28:45

I'm asking the kebab guy. I'm asking

1:28:47

the kebab guy. Or I take a

1:28:49

taxi and I'm like, hey can you take me to this location? Because

1:28:52

again, I blended in. I

1:28:54

looked like a native, I mean I am a native

1:28:57

and I looked like a guy who's local. So

1:28:59

after the month when I showed the chief all of these things

1:29:01

and he's like, what else can you do? Because

1:29:04

he did have requirements, he could not have anybody

1:29:06

doing it. So we finish and

1:29:09

he sends a cable, he's like, I need two of these guys.

1:29:12

Not one. So they

1:29:14

moved, they actually ended

1:29:17

up adding one more guy from

1:29:19

my squadron. Then a month after,

1:29:22

I'm walking to the embassy in the morning. I

1:29:27

live really near there. So the door I walk through

1:29:29

is like a door for people and

1:29:32

there is another gate for vehicles. So

1:29:34

I walked in, I worked in the third floor.

1:29:36

By the time I made it to the third

1:29:38

floor, I hear an explosion. So

1:29:41

we had a civilian engineer in the office I was working in. The

1:29:43

guy goes down in his knees, pulled

1:29:45

out his rosary and he started praying and he was,

1:29:47

God, make this a drill. The

1:29:49

guy did what he knew, what he did. I was

1:29:52

like, hey dude, this is

1:29:54

not fucking drill. This is

1:29:56

an explosion for real. And then

1:29:58

we hear gunfire. And

1:30:01

where I'm at, there is a vault. So

1:30:04

we initially, your training kicks in.

1:30:06

So we're like, OK, so about four or five of us

1:30:08

here. Close the vault. Call

1:30:11

and call home. Say, hey, we

1:30:13

might be going through a destruction plan. We're going to

1:30:15

destruct everything. It goes to your mind. The

1:30:21

Kenia-Tanzania embassy bombings. It goes

1:30:23

to your mind. Tehran embassy.

1:30:26

People being taken hostages. All

1:30:29

of these things go to your mind. And I'm there as a

1:30:31

civilian. But I had

1:30:33

an M4. We had our stuff shipped.

1:30:36

There was another unit guy there with me. And

1:30:39

I'm like, OK, if I open this vault door and walk out,

1:30:42

and there is a Marine running, he's going to see

1:30:44

an Arab guy. That's the guy

1:30:46

most likely he has to find these passports in the street.

1:30:49

He's going to find an Arab looking guy with an M4. So

1:30:52

I might get shot. And

1:30:54

scenario two, I opened that door. And

1:30:57

the bad guys are there because they took

1:30:59

over the Marines, and I'm going to

1:31:01

get shot. So

1:31:03

I'm the enemy of both sides. I'm

1:31:05

like, fuck. So finally,

1:31:08

I'm like, you know what? I have no choice. I've

1:31:10

got to open that door. And I've got to go downstairs.

1:31:13

So I go downstairs to the defense at

1:31:15

the chaise office. I find somebody talking. What

1:31:18

they tell you is, there is an explosion. You go under the

1:31:20

table. So everybody did what they're supposed

1:31:23

to do. And

1:31:25

then I hear somebody else talking. And

1:31:28

I'm like, man, I'm not fucking going

1:31:30

to get shot again. Like in

1:31:32

my mind, that's what I'm saying. So I

1:31:34

hear somebody saying, did you get shot before? And

1:31:37

somebody about to have a conversation with me. I'm

1:31:41

like, this is not the time to have a conversation. So I found the

1:31:43

other unit guy who goes to the rooftop. The

1:31:45

Marine who asked me like

1:31:47

two months before, did you find that passport in the

1:31:49

street? He's sitting there. Marines

1:31:51

are very well disciplined, as you guys know. He

1:31:54

has his weapon. And

1:31:56

he comes. Me and the other guy are there in the

1:31:58

rooftop as well. A couple

1:32:00

of agency guys came with us, and

1:32:04

the Marine looks at us, and

1:32:07

he sees that we have really cool weapons with all

1:32:09

the Belgian whistles. And

1:32:12

he's like, is either one of you guys outranked me? So

1:32:16

the other guy outranked both of us. The other guy was a

1:32:18

master sergeant. I was an E7 at that time. So the other

1:32:21

guy, who's the coolest guy in there, he

1:32:23

was really cool, calm, Marine Berea

1:32:25

guy, unit guy, and he's like a

1:32:28

master sergeant. The

1:32:31

Marine just comes out, and the Marine is

1:32:33

like, I see guys across the street

1:32:36

with weapons. Should I shoot? And

1:32:39

we're like, no, man. Those are the guards. They're shooting

1:32:41

at the bad guys. So that

1:32:43

firefight goes back and forth. The

1:32:48

master sergeant finds a grenade, unexplored. Disarmament.

1:32:53

He threw it at Doris, so I think it's Doris is all about

1:32:55

shedding his fucking pants. So he saw a grenade.

1:32:57

So the whole thing lasted for about, I

1:33:00

want to say, like an hour at

1:33:02

the end. I

1:33:05

put a lot more details about that in the book, but

1:33:07

at the end, we hear this

1:33:09

huge explosion. So the corps, the bad guys

1:33:12

were in, that they were supposed actually to

1:33:14

enter, tag the embassy with. They

1:33:16

had propane tanks. They were supposed to blow up the embassy.

1:33:19

They didn't. And they didn't because the

1:33:22

guy was driving that truck, small truck,

1:33:24

found an old lady crossing the street.

1:33:27

He didn't want to hit her. He avoided her. Hit

1:33:29

the pillars rather than the door. And then

1:33:31

that firefight went back and forth. The

1:33:34

local guards from the street, they saved us.

1:33:37

Although hostile country, not

1:33:39

friendly at all, but they did their job to protect

1:33:41

the diplomatic mission. A

1:33:44

couple questions. I mean, I guess first

1:33:48

off, were you guys able to disrupt some

1:33:50

of the terrorist rat lines that you were

1:33:52

looking to interdict or identify in the country?

1:33:55

And is that why the embassy got

1:33:57

attacked? Was it because of that targeting? We

1:34:00

were able to do ah. Disrupt.

1:34:03

A lot of those we were able to get guys.

1:34:06

Are. Taken out. We had guys get taken

1:34:08

out. In country. How

1:34:11

had guys get taken out as soon as they went to

1:34:13

Iraq? But. I don't think it was related,

1:34:15

I think it just these guys. I mean the Embassy within

1:34:17

a very vulnerable. Look. Each season he

1:34:19

wouldn't. he wouldn't a very vulnerable occasions

1:34:22

and I think it was more an

1:34:24

attack against the local government. Not.

1:34:26

Us to they were trying to show the

1:34:28

local government is weak. ah I gotcha So

1:34:30

and then it was up with and in

1:34:32

easy part So I think. About. That was

1:34:34

the reason. I mean, nobody really knew exactly. What

1:34:37

was? But you gotta realize. During

1:34:40

that time when the Iraq

1:34:42

War was going on, We.

1:34:44

Were had enemies over the middle. I mean everybody

1:34:47

was like blaming us. Because. I

1:34:50

know some people agree or disagree. A

1:34:53

lot of. A lot of people

1:34:56

like me in the military with i don't think

1:34:58

the Iraq War. Was justifiable I think. This.

1:35:00

Was a bullshit. I

1:35:03

think happened. and they they they there was

1:35:05

no weapons of mass destruction. Yeah yeah, there

1:35:07

was no terrorists there. Are we

1:35:09

did everything possible I got was gonna find

1:35:12

any terrorist affiliation and rock it would not

1:35:14

be an hour after that. When the regime

1:35:16

collapsed it drew them advantage of them because

1:35:18

became the Wild Wild West and isn't that

1:35:21

your them and the the other question I

1:35:23

want to ask you about this the particular

1:35:25

deployment that I think be interesting and not

1:35:27

a sports the big debate about what is

1:35:30

tactical on what a strategic by the Cia

1:35:32

normally. Gather. Strategic Intelligence. The Army

1:35:34

is often times more interested in

1:35:36

tactical intelligence. Oh, those are some

1:35:39

strategic missions there. Two. Hours

1:35:42

One else about your experience working out of

1:35:44

embassy with them and like to kind of

1:35:46

like two different mentalities of from an army

1:35:48

guy to her in agency officer. So.

1:35:52

I. Think it was very very personality driven.

1:35:55

So. Ah, for example, in that

1:35:57

mission that was just talking about eleven.

1:36:01

The agency guys were super

1:36:03

cool. We were all. We

1:36:06

felt like a family because we were all

1:36:08

in the same shit hole together right right?

1:36:10

Ah we geico their backs ah hey you

1:36:13

had surveillance today so to them from me

1:36:15

about it the guy with ability to the

1:36:17

my server me tomorrow so we will share

1:36:19

and a lot of information. Ah,

1:36:24

Look. At his Africa. Is.

1:36:26

Africa will. We're going to Somalia together. That

1:36:29

would like a Blackhawk team school Nabokov? Yeah,

1:36:31

yeah, so we're going to smile at it. Again,

1:36:35

Prose not address. We. Had a guy who

1:36:37

was. A Blackhawk team

1:36:39

leader with a former marine. He's

1:36:41

like i know better than all of you guys to fuck. All

1:36:43

of you guys are going to do what I tell you to

1:36:45

do so he would. Grab his phone. And.

1:36:49

Openly. Call. Internationally

1:36:51

talk about things like him I usually be

1:36:53

thought it would. Them. Fast

1:36:56

forward with another guy or after him.

1:36:58

Who would think a high school. Used.

1:37:01

To the high school teacher in New York. Who

1:37:03

came and became the down? A teeny.

1:37:07

Really com really smart Real

1:37:09

A against extremely procedure. Ah,

1:37:12

but there is. There was

1:37:14

like still knows some competition their surfing

1:37:16

on. I would like I'm just out.

1:37:19

There. Cia. Or he

1:37:21

like i'm see a screw you suits was

1:37:23

an for us. We.

1:37:25

Were able to operate under

1:37:28

title Fifty. And.

1:37:31

As a twenty, Labels. Operate on

1:37:33

the both, so one of them is

1:37:35

like you know you operate in clandestinely.

1:37:37

Therefore, Diana title, Ten Zambia So titles,

1:37:39

and untitled fifty. So. We're able

1:37:41

to operate on the both. It's

1:37:43

a years interesting thing that your

1:37:45

unit is able to conduct covert

1:37:47

operations. Clandestine operations are conventional military

1:37:49

operations is what. It spends under which

1:37:52

title you were an and who's on. Top.

1:37:54

Is it see A or us and how

1:37:56

we gonna do this together? But there was

1:37:58

some deployments where we were six. well

1:38:00

together. Some other deployments

1:38:02

were just, we never, again,

1:38:06

I might be biased, but we never hated or disliked

1:38:08

them or disliked working with them, but

1:38:11

it was like when you go in

1:38:13

a mission and you come back and

1:38:16

the CIA guy changed the door

1:38:18

combo and you're like, dude,

1:38:20

I thought we all went team. That's super

1:38:22

passive-aggressive. Exactly. And you're like...

1:38:24

Did you ever, was

1:38:27

there ever any correlation for you between the

1:38:29

age of the person running the agency's

1:38:33

operation? Like, were younger, if there

1:38:36

was a younger guy there, was he more

1:38:38

or less, you know, easier

1:38:40

or harder to work with? Yeah, I think that, yeah,

1:38:43

no. No. Again, personality driven. Yeah.

1:38:45

That was like some younger guys

1:38:47

were really, really easy going, nice

1:38:49

work with. You would think older

1:38:52

guys would be more mature and they'd be like, okay, we

1:38:54

mission focused, but then you have older guys who are

1:38:56

like, you know, who's gonna get credit for this? Right.

1:38:58

In one of the deployments, one of the

1:39:01

missions, we had a guy

1:39:03

who pretended to be sick, he stayed in the

1:39:05

hotel room, all he did was he fucking ate pizza

1:39:08

all night. Next

1:39:11

day, and he's like, he's like, I'm sick. And

1:39:13

next day he wrote a cable and I was

1:39:16

like, dude, we detained the guy that night. Me

1:39:19

and another guy went out with the locals, we got the

1:39:21

guy, I mean, we did the whole thing, he just stayed

1:39:23

in the hotel room. But he wrote the

1:39:26

best cable ever. Yeah. That guy, man, I was

1:39:28

like, dude, you either have a very wild imagination

1:39:30

or you did something I didn't see. But we

1:39:32

were not honestly interested in taking credit. Yeah. We

1:39:35

were like, you know, he want to take credit

1:39:37

for it? He'll be it. So

1:39:41

90% of the military guys I worked with, like

1:39:44

on our field and you guys know

1:39:48

it and being in the same category of, dude,

1:39:50

I just want to get the mission done. Yeah.

1:39:52

Who takes credit for it? I

1:39:55

don't care. Now, did most of the

1:39:57

agents, people that you were

1:39:59

with today? have a military background or did some

1:40:01

of it, did it vary quite a bit? It

1:40:03

varied and the guys it was hard to work

1:40:06

with were the guys who never

1:40:09

had military background. There

1:40:11

was a guy, one of them, again, who

1:40:13

are in a very, very rough country and

1:40:16

he and I go now doing a lot of things together and he and

1:40:21

I like discussing something and he's like, you

1:40:24

know, I

1:40:26

think, and I want to just phrase it how he said

1:40:28

it because he's like, he's a smart guy

1:40:31

and he's like, I never

1:40:34

been wrong but

1:40:36

I was wrong only once and that one time

1:40:39

I was in school and

1:40:42

as soon as he told me that I was driving, I

1:40:45

pulled over on the side of the road, I said,

1:40:47

dude, say this one more time, I'm gonna fucking kick

1:40:49

you out of the car. Yeah, yeah. If we're both

1:40:51

on patrol in Vietnam, only one of us is making

1:40:53

it to the OD, right? And then

1:40:56

I told him, when you look, who looks local?

1:40:58

Not you. You are

1:41:00

a 6'4", 6'3", white

1:41:03

guy in a country that told

1:41:05

this guy, most likely, it's my height. So

1:41:07

just say this one more time. But

1:41:09

again, and then you realize, and the

1:41:11

guy was like, you know, he's like,

1:41:13

dude, I came from a culture where

1:41:16

you have to show that and you

1:41:18

have to show that how good you are and I was like, dude,

1:41:21

but we here together that we might die

1:41:23

together or live together. So you cannot tell me that you've

1:41:25

never been wrong because when I tell you we're gonna make

1:41:28

a left here, we're making a left here. But

1:41:31

again, that guy was never in the military. So I've

1:41:33

seen that and I've seen the guys who are like,

1:41:36

who got your back 100% and there was a

1:41:39

guy with me in Iraq and he's like, ground

1:41:41

branch guy, older guy. And

1:41:46

honestly, I was like, he

1:41:48

came out with me a few times, he did a lot of things

1:41:51

and when you see the guy,

1:41:53

you're like, man, that guy with

1:41:55

the experience he had, with the knowledge he had,

1:41:57

I should be saluting him every time I

1:41:59

see him. But he was like,

1:42:01

hey brother, what do you need? So

1:42:03

you have personality driven. Big next. The

1:42:07

other thing I don't want to gloss over and miss

1:42:09

is, as you mentioned, there's this incident

1:42:11

where you get shot. What

1:42:13

happened there? Where were you and what happened?

1:42:17

So I was in Africa. And

1:42:19

we were doing a lot of things in Somalia, in

1:42:21

and out of Somalia. And

1:42:26

the exact reason why I got shot, honestly, nobody

1:42:28

would ever know. When

1:42:31

we put things together, again, we

1:42:33

have an analytical mind. So a few

1:42:35

days, a week before, we were

1:42:38

in Somalia. And there

1:42:40

was an ambush set up for us. We

1:42:43

got really lucky that we were supposed to

1:42:45

go land and get

1:42:47

from point A to point B. They

1:42:50

saw the ambush in the way. Well,

1:42:52

when we landed, again,

1:42:55

this is 100% luck that

1:42:57

we had some equipment in the airfield where

1:42:59

we were landing that we haven't

1:43:01

serviced for a while. And I said, guys, I

1:43:04

think we should service it. And I want

1:43:06

to stay here to service the equipment, me and another guy.

1:43:09

So the rest of the team said, no, we're not

1:43:12

going to leave. You will just stay with me. Way

1:43:15

out of the plan. And this is something just happened

1:43:18

in the last minute. So

1:43:20

we stayed. So

1:43:23

the al-Shabaab guys who were ambushing us, they

1:43:29

were expecting us to land, and they moved. Well,

1:43:32

we didn't move. And we stayed for

1:43:34

about an hour messing with the equipment. They

1:43:37

thought we're not going to

1:43:40

point B. So

1:43:42

they started coming our way. So

1:43:44

the local guys we were dealing with, they had

1:43:47

checkpoints. The

1:43:49

al-Shabaab guys started running over at

1:43:51

the checkpoints, telling a couple of guys, guys

1:43:53

getting radios. They called the

1:43:56

guys we were with. Hey, man, they

1:43:58

attacking you in Italy. The

1:44:00

pilot that we had, at that time, local

1:44:03

pilot from the area, again,

1:44:05

this is not a military aircraft, this is a

1:44:07

local. So the pilot, he

1:44:10

understood, he understands Somali, very

1:44:13

calm usually, but all of a sudden he's no

1:44:15

longer calm. He's like, we need to leave now.

1:44:18

And I've never seen that guy that way. And I'm like, if he's

1:44:20

saying we need to leave now, we need to leave now. It

1:44:23

was six of us, six US guys and

1:44:26

the pilot. So

1:44:29

we ran to the aircraft, we