0:00

i'm katie page cov norman

0:02

and we're proud to support the teacher's

0:04

trial podcast for 5

0:06

years having a woman has been in before

0:08

we start a quick warning this podcast

0:11

is obviously a bad a convicted

0:13

murderer and we've been discussing some

0:16

distressing content there's also some

0:18

adult language in this episode

0:24

one

0:25

of of the country's most high profile he's

0:27

on the way more than forty years after

0:30

crystals and is accused of murdering his

0:32

wife lynette saying that disposing of

0:34

her body

0:34

he vanished from the bayview hi i'm in

0:37

nineteen eighty two fifty ccs

0:39

there was little progress until police

0:41

said decisively extradited to and

0:43

from queensland in twenty i kane

0:46

is always prefer see the innocent

0:47

christopher michael dawson says

0:50

he's been waiting for this die happy

0:52

that finally hit on the why now this

0:55

theory that my

0:57

name is headley thomas and i'm and journalist

0:59

with journalist particular interest particular interest

1:01

investigations into the alleged

1:03

murders of women in australia

1:06

this is episode nineteen of

1:08

our podcast series the teachers

1:10

trial it's brought to you by

1:12

the australian the trial

1:14

of christopher michael dawson a

1:16

former high school physical education

1:18

teacher for the murder of his wife

1:20

lynne a doting mother of two

1:22

little girls in sydney for decades

1:25

ago you can follow the case

1:27

that the newspapers digital side and

1:30

that the teachers trial dot com dot au

1:35

on clay hobby host of the australians

1:37

daily news podcast the front and

1:39

i'm joined in breeze been by had

1:41

little miss david murray and met

1:43

he condon were together again for the first

1:45

time since the verdict in sydney

1:48

a massive wait for thought last week

1:50

and now we're back together to bring you a

1:52

new episode of the teachers trial in

1:55

this episode within a dive really deep

1:57

into justice and harris

1:59

the judgment

1:59

matt it's an absolutely

2:02

whopping judgment is annette bigger

2:04

than i even presumed in the court that

2:06

day it's two hundred and thirty eight pages

2:08

long there are over seven hundred and sixty

2:11

numbered sections and paragraphs

2:14

in the judgment if he translated that

2:16

into book length that's a three

2:18

hundred plus page book

2:20

and hardly any day since

2:22

the judgment was handed down you and

2:24

a colleague slide gibson has been hard

2:27

at work ray editing ray mastering and

2:29

re releasing the original teaches piss

2:32

we've released it again for styling audiences

2:34

and it's available now on the australians app

2:37

how are you are still be since his work places

2:40

like we haven't stopped running since

2:42

well since the trial started and

2:44

it continues but going back

2:47

into the teacher's pet episodes and

2:49

re doing part of them for

2:51

them strain orleans has also been satisfied

2:55

that's because i'm able to

2:57

put into those episodes some

3:00

color and atmosphere and audio

3:03

from people i interviewed

3:05

which in the rush to get those

3:07

episodes out when we were doing

3:09

them in twenty items i didn't

3:11

use i overlooked so in some ways

3:13

they're even stronger than the original

3:15

versions met knowing what you said

3:17

about a hundred thousand aud words

3:20

for justice he and harrison's judgment

3:24

that's only ten one hour episodes

3:27

what are we worried about that

3:30

you've written so many fantastic books

3:32

and lengthy newspaper articles

3:35

you're a writer who appreciates

3:37

fallen riding how

3:39

would you reviews justice harrison's

3:42

judgment as a piece of writing that's

3:45

a fantastic question because i

3:47

as i was reading it that's precisely by

3:49

my nature what i was doing subconsciously

3:53

so i came to the conclusion that

3:56

once she saw through

3:58

some pretty heavy

3:59

legally is

4:02

and once you captured the rhythm

4:05

oh

4:06

justice harrison's piece of writing

4:10

he in some ways was an absolute

4:12

master of suspense this

4:14

is why so many people straight after the verdict

4:16

said i didn't know whether chris would be

4:18

guilty whether he'd not be guilty but if you

4:21

went beyond the first legal

4:23

layer of that documents what

4:25

i found were tiny little

4:28

throw forward plot points that he'd

4:30

imbedded in his text and

4:32

the minute you read a section

4:35

of his judgment and

4:37

thought i think

4:39

a guilty verdict will be happening he

4:42

immediately the in the writing

4:44

swung around to a reason why

4:46

that possibly may not happen said

4:48

this was the reason for the see saw

4:50

effect this was the roller coaster

4:53

effect of his actual structure

4:56

it was actually a brilliant piece of rotting i

4:58

think he delivers it to with both

5:00

compassion and integrity

5:03

he was not acting as

5:06

he delivers it that he was not

5:08

boring either he appeared

5:10

to just take a very measured

5:12

line and at

5:14

times just looked a bit sorrowful

5:16

towards crystals and wall

5:19

punishing him with this verdict

5:21

of guilty the you're

5:23

absolutely right i think there are a combination of

5:25

other things happening to we have heard and

5:27

read repeatedly and indeed we've

5:29

witnessed flashes of his awesome

5:32

and quite brilliance linguistic talents

5:34

and sense of humor he was incredibly funny

5:37

in moments throughout the trial but the final

5:39

delivery was

5:43

almost somber he ,

5:45

more quietly than he heads that

5:47

with witness throughout the trial i was wondering

5:50

wondering he got into this this slow

5:53

steady almost monotonous rhythm

5:56

whether justice harrison was in fact

5:59

more

5:59

double as a speak up thinking

6:02

of the top of his head as

6:04

as a live court situation requires

6:07

whether he was uncomfortable with actually

6:09

reading this enormously long text

6:11

whether he didn't like to hear the sound of

6:13

his own right because some people

6:15

can't stand the sound

6:18

of reading their own

6:20

particular narrative that they've committed

6:22

to paper but then again this

6:24

know this wasn't a at an opportunity for

6:27

a tap dance show this was

6:29

a judgment on a man's life and

6:31

see true that loss and

6:34

i think especially think the end when end when

6:36

up and it's almost

6:38

stay down the barrel of the cameron said i find

6:40

you guilty it

6:43

was almost of pinched look on

6:45

his face not that it was difficult

6:47

for him to deliver that but said

6:49

he knew he was making a

6:52

decision that would change many many

6:54

lives and you could read empathy

6:56

on his face

6:57

in today's episode we're going to look

6:59

at a few of the hoping for justice

7:02

and harrison he'd didn't know

7:04

where we can get through everything that's in that judgment

7:06

and so we'll be bringing you another episode next

7:08

week with more analysis never

7:11

, we would start with something that you and i discussed

7:13

only evening of the very day

7:16

i rang you are the two hippies were

7:18

panic because i needed to explain

7:20

in my story for the next as newspaper

7:22

part of justice and harrison's finding

7:25

that was really significant to make

7:27

it seem like the first breach falling

7:29

out of the wall of creek dawson's

7:32

defense it's about north

7:34

response response

7:36

right and the clearing members you saying

7:38

to me very early on in the trial

7:41

it's a small things that can that that

7:43

can make this huge difference in murder trials

7:46

and that's exactly what happened with this

7:48

one point sites or try and explain

7:50

that bit of evidence now basically

7:53

we know that crystals and said he received

7:55

a call from lane at the northwards

7:57

was saying that she'd gone away and

7:59

need some time on her ice

8:02

the girl who worked in the shop called me over

8:04

and said there was an std find call for

8:06

me she taken the call

8:09

where they are to find call it

8:11

was lame she said she needed time

8:14

away like i had had prior to that

8:16

day and seed ring made ring made

8:18

days after she had time to sort things

8:20

out head in

8:22

the following few weeks so i had several phone

8:25

calls from lane all std

8:27

coasts saying that she needed extra

8:29

time she needed more time to sort of

8:31

and then , bad the third

8:33

phone call she said she needed

8:35

a lot more time and she didn't know

8:38

if she would be returning now

8:40

there was now there there who was a teenage girl

8:42

at the time working at the parts

8:45

were using initials pay for her she

8:47

gave evidence at the trial that he took

8:49

a call when she was working at

8:51

the bars either the summer

8:53

of ninety ninety one eighty two she

8:56

couldn't say exactly when but he said it

8:58

was from a woman who wanted to speak

9:00

to either chris or paul dawson

9:02

one of the twins he was been

9:04

embarrassed because she was a tween herself and she couldn't

9:07

really tell prison ball apart it

9:09

was a long distance cause he heard the pizza the

9:11

side of the cool so that evidence

9:14

on his own might be capable of

9:16

supporting crysis claim that he got

9:18

a call from lind the

9:21

cat is that there was another witness

9:23

a woman who was a teenager at the time

9:25

he also worked at the pools and

9:28

her initials are j m the

9:30

difference huh jm is see had

9:32

a diary remarkably

9:34

from january nine of nineteen

9:37

eighty two she'd written down what

9:39

had happened that day he had worked at the north

9:41

beach bars and she said that how

9:44

stabbing the manager the bars went home

9:46

at midday and she didn't get

9:48

paid because as usual crystals and doesn't

9:51

pay that little entry in the

9:53

dark became significant injustice

9:55

harrison's view because in

9:58

the first version of events that we from

10:00

a be when she took the fine cool house

10:02

dubbing the manage it was standing there when

10:05

this phone call came in whereas this

10:07

diary entry said that call subbing had

10:09

gone home at midday and we

10:11

know that christos and said he got this phone

10:13

call in the afternoon and around three

10:15

pm psycho stabbing couldn't have been

10:17

s and just as he inherits

10:19

and went into an explanation of

10:22

why are that supported his view

10:24

that crystals him was lying when he said

10:26

that he got a phone call from lean that day

10:30

having regard to all of that

10:32

evidence

10:34

i'm unable to accept that the version of

10:36

events at the north bridge bombs suggesting

10:39

mr dawson received an std call

10:41

from les dawson in

10:43

the afternoon of nine january nineteen eighty

10:45

two could reasonably be true

10:49

i'm satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that mr

10:51

dawson various representations

10:54

that he spoke to a net dawson by telephone

10:57

on a cool made to the north for each bounce

10:59

on that day is alone

11:01

what a stunning moment

11:03

in the court wasn't at headley when just

11:06

as a and harrison said very clearly crystals

11:08

and has lied that's right and that's when

11:10

i think we all started to see the

11:12

and have been looking back over

11:15

what james told me she contacted

11:17

me out of the blue and twenty i team

11:19

because one of her friends my

11:22

a sydney who had been

11:24

a regular swimmer at the north bridge bob's

11:26

contacted her nice

11:28

the diary stuff is painful seventeen

11:31

year old scribblings chino embarrassing

11:35

it's weird that i've still got the story

11:37

i think i'm just so embarrassed that

11:39

i have to either shred it because it's got

11:42

all the boys that i had crushes on how

11:44

bizarre i must be some weird

11:47

i know hold of that i've still got the damn

11:49

thing i worked

11:51

for call stabbings he was the one that

11:53

least the bob he'd been

11:55

there for as long as i've been swimming at north

11:57

bridge bots which was since i was about

11:59

rain that years he got

12:02

the dawson's to help when he wanted

12:04

a bit of time off or whatever then they come

12:06

in and duty or time of the day here

12:08

and they occasionally

12:10

crestwood they crestwood they afternoon and he'd

12:12

close up the muffin have paid

12:15

me so maybe i wasn't paid when he

12:17

was saying it was like two dollars

12:19

an hour on a cloudy day and four dollars

12:21

on a sunny day just cash in hand

12:23

you know i work there from

12:25

when i was fifteen why didn't

12:27

they asked me after that's what's

12:29

so frustrating bloody hell

12:32

i'm amazed that all this has gone has

12:34

i said or done it shredded

12:36

don't tread it's good that you've kept it she

12:38

was frustrated that she hadn't been asked

12:40

soon after leans disappearance

12:43

whether or not she recalled

12:45

taking any call she told me that she'd

12:47

been thinking a lot about wins disappearance

12:49

and after racking her brain trying to remember

12:52

things even went back to the north bridge

12:54

bob's and photographs some areas of

12:56

bush land it's not a conventional

12:58

swimming pool type place it's a bison

13:00

with pushy areas around it and

13:03

there's a lot of very expensive houses

13:05

overlooking the water say the reason she

13:07

went back to photograph it was just in case

13:09

there was an area where a body

13:11

might have been buried and this has happened a lot

13:14

through this case people having

13:16

connections to particular places knowing

13:19

where leno chris went

13:21

and believing that that might be

13:23

the place where lynn remains

13:25

my life is it your impression headley that

13:28

the place hadn't actually collected that diary

13:31

and to ask the teacher's pet again

13:33

i'm confident that damien

13:35

loon didn't collected and

13:38

the next stage of the investigation

13:40

by police began in

13:42

twenty fifteen when daniel poll

13:44

picked it up i think it's quite probable

13:48

then who got the diary and

13:50

i don't know what stage but

13:53

certainly there was a very hopeful

13:55

woman called my sydney who had been listening

13:57

to the podcast and was working

13:59

really

13:59

hard to try to

14:02

put people in touch with both police

14:04

them with myself date i'm looking

14:06

back at the live blog that we were up dating

14:09

from our seats in the back as court thirteen

14:11

i on thirty day and

14:13

i can say that at ten twenty three

14:16

i am you posted an update

14:18

it says crystals and stared

14:20

straight ahead as judge in harrison

14:22

said he believes the former teacher was law

14:24

nine when he claimed mean find

14:26

him at north bridge pas de asta

14:29

she was alleged to have been murdered creases

14:31

older brother present has his arms crossed

14:34

that phrasing by you suggest

14:36

to may how significant you appreciated

14:39

this was in the moment absolutely

14:41

because

14:42

weird is crystals and go from there what

14:44

possible explanation could there be

14:47

for he's lying apart from the sack that

14:50

he had killed lynn i really couldn't

14:52

see a way out for him from that

14:54

points and i was watching him really closely

14:57

as soon as that was said because i wanted to see what

14:59

his reaction was it must have been obviously

15:01

them to that this was a huge

15:03

problem for them i mean dave was far

15:06

more perceptive deny on that very

15:08

much that i if i'm sitting there

15:10

at , many many tens of thousands

15:12

of people i think at watching this

15:15

live on line as well because i got caught

15:17

up in justice harrison's rollercoaster

15:19

when meet you now have the benefit of being able

15:21

to study the text which is far

15:24

different from being caught up in this sort

15:26

of swirling seeding

15:28

and pushing in tide of

15:30

just assassins voice live

15:32

when he when he slowed down now with the benefit

15:34

of hindsight into connects the study

15:37

the text itself you can see

15:40

very clearly

15:41

very early

15:43

that in the six in the north bridge bars

15:45

which is paragraph twenty three

15:47

of over seven hundred and fifty paragraphs

15:49

justice house and comes to the view very

15:51

quickly that in fact chris dawson's

15:54

the claim that windows and found

15:57

the north bridge bob's that afternoon was

15:59

nothing

15:59

lie and the first domino

16:02

to fall i didn't see it but

16:04

now or it's glaringly obvious

16:07

i'm in the two hundred and thirty eight page

16:09

judgment that the signs

16:11

were all their from the beginning now

16:13

that we are understanding this

16:15

in the granular detail in which has

16:17

been conveyed by the judge it is to

16:19

so interesting to consider

16:22

one the a coal mine

16:25

the help chris dawson perfect

16:27

this explanation because if

16:29

for example the police had decided

16:32

to start investigating early on hypothetically

16:34

they didn't it was a complete sure muzzle

16:37

but if i had gone to the baths

16:39

to talk to the staff who are working that

16:41

day and ask them then you would expect

16:43

that if crystals and had a proper plan

16:46

he would ensure a cole had they made

16:48

then again who made that call

16:51

them

16:52

where did it come from it should have been a

16:54

female cola so that the story

16:56

would stick we know that lynn

16:59

dawson was dead she didn't call the bob's

17:01

what we don't know is whether anybody

17:03

cold the baths representing as

17:06

lynn he isn't misses where justice

17:08

and harrison is remarkably precise

17:11

and careful met in his language

17:14

in describing what he's accepting

17:16

he's very clean the

17:18

only satisfied beyond reasonable doubt

17:21

that when it doesn't did not call

17:23

the north response on the ninth

17:25

of january let's just look specifically

17:28

at paragraph forty of the judgment and

17:31

injustice harrison's own words he says

17:33

there is no truth in mr dawson's

17:35

representations to mr

17:38

day or later to the police that

17:40

lynette dawson phoned him the

17:42

not bridge balls on nine january nineteen eighty

17:45

two it doesn't preclude a

17:47

phone call

17:48

it was lynette dawson did not

17:50

find him

17:51

and that's why it was such a significant moment

17:54

because we could read between the lines that that

17:56

the judge knew that he

17:58

had killed lane and

17:59

i lying about it

18:02

he was essentially signaling to the

18:04

judge foodies down the his

18:06

, and and we can just imagine

18:08

the same playing out on that sunny

18:10

afternoon in january nine

18:12

a to at this very pretty

18:15

place surrounded by water

18:18

you've got a woman lynn's

18:20

mom who's traveled mom who's way

18:22

to see her daughter who has been so

18:24

distressed over the style of her marriage

18:27

and has told her just the previous night

18:29

things are going to turn out i came up with

18:31

did the counseling and he

18:33

can tell greg pak

18:36

the and feel

18:37

the on the right track it's all going to be good the marriage

18:40

is back on track so helena

18:42

has gone to the bars with a bit of a spring

18:44

and his step she's bleeding to talk

18:47

to lean about how well it went that

18:50

limbs not bay

18:51

the guy who we believe

18:53

went with helena to the bad gave

18:55

her that list from club valley he's

18:58

there to and he's just way that he chris

19:00

talk to him about the marital

19:03

problems chris had contacted fill

19:05

out of the blue asking him to come to

19:07

the bars it was it was cunning plan

19:10

let's get

19:11

the witness trusted by both sides of the

19:13

family trusted by the interested

19:15

by helena to be this

19:18

the innocent job and that's all filled

19:20

i was this led the judge

19:22

to a series of very rapid

19:25

fire and devastating

19:27

conclusions about chris two sons the

19:29

eyes and it started with the

19:31

other phone calls that crease claimed

19:33

that lean had made to him just

19:36

as a and harrison says unsatisfied

19:38

beyond reasonable doubt that mr dawson reported

19:40

telephone calls we the lynette tools

19:43

and after nine january nineteen eighty

19:45

two are lies the judge also

19:47

demolish the content of what

19:49

crease was claiming about those phone

19:51

calls he's were just as harrison said

19:54

common sense also suggest that conversations

19:57

between conversations married couple

19:59

and front

19:59

with the or of and painful reality

20:02

manifest in lynette dawson's alleged

20:04

decision never to return

20:06

what of being a plate

20:07

the discussion of all manner of things including

20:11

at the very least the welfare of the children

20:14

i cannot accept that will net those would have

20:16

telephone mr dawson merely to say

20:18

that she needed more time away with

20:21

it she would ring in a few days after she had

20:23

sort things out or

20:26

did she needed extra time to sort it

20:28

out that she needed a lot more

20:30

time and did not know whether she

20:32

would be returning in

20:35

my do fanciful to suggest that conversations

20:37

is lacking in content and

20:39

pregnant with cliches though described

20:42

by mr dawson ever occurred at

20:44

ten forty two days you've blogs

20:46

we too often has remained still and

20:48

silent as the judge delivered a series

20:50

of damning findings about his claims

20:52

about leans disappearance i mean the

20:54

same as common sense in this judgments

20:57

these are the things that we discuss amongst

20:59

ourselves why would lean dawson call

21:02

her husband who

21:04

, was having all these problems with and no

21:06

one else not a mother loved her dearly

21:09

or sister or brothers not

21:12

the children and as justice has

21:14

simply that she didn't even ask about a children

21:16

according to chris in a very surface

21:19

lot conversations that they're having the

21:21

judges just pierced the whole straight through crystals

21:23

and story is fascinating i also

21:25

think that the judge has very sensibly

21:28

taken into account character we've

21:30

seen the judge talk about character

21:32

and be pressed by chris dawson's

21:35

lawyers to take into account chris

21:37

dawson so cold prior

21:39

good character but what about lean

21:41

dawson's character lindo since

21:43

character was that all of a very loving

21:46

mother and devoted wife who's

21:48

still prepared to cling to chris

21:50

despite the contemptible why

21:52

he had traded her her character

21:55

then was utterly smeared

21:58

as and abandoning

21:59

if a runaway mother who

22:02

wins she did call chris couldn't

22:04

really give a rat's about the kids will say

22:06

it just kept coming out with lime

22:09

reasons why stayed a few more days

22:11

away until she stopped calling the judge

22:13

took into account her extraordinary

22:16

character the depth of her love for her children

22:18

and her husband and her home

22:21

and he decided that it was just

22:23

ridiculous that she would have up and left

22:25

the way chris dishonestly climbed

22:28

i'm in headley you and dave of hit the nail on the

22:30

head because

22:31

littered throughout

22:33

saracens lengthy judgment

22:36

are the same phrases that

22:38

is defies common sense or

22:41

or beyond human experience

22:43

so he's constantly trying to tether

22:46

it too logical

22:48

human behavior and this is where

22:51

lynn story makes sense but his

22:53

story doesn't so they begin to chafe

22:55

and separate and it didn't make

22:57

sense in the early nineties

23:00

it didn't make sense in the early nineteen nineties

23:03

here we are in the early

23:05

twenty twenties it is

23:07

inexcusable in the view of lynch

23:09

family and i think they're absolutely

23:12

rise

23:13

the taken this long for

23:15

forty year old lies

23:17

the be unpicked and

23:19

prosecuted it is a disgraceful

23:21

situation that is is taken this long for

23:23

police and for authorities

23:26

to get to where we are now this is something

23:28

that i wanted to discuss why

23:30

didn't the dpp prosecute

23:32

twenty years ago after to take

23:35

or o'neill inquests recommended that crispy

23:37

charge as the evidence change

23:39

remarkably since that time that least

23:41

they have no doubt been additional items

23:44

of evidence but the judge significantly

23:47

took into account crysis original

23:49

evidence and lies from nineteen

23:51

eighty two and in his

23:53

interview with the police in nineteen

23:56

ninety one today big places that

23:58

the judges relied upon we

24:00

got a sense of how the dpp

24:03

in two thousand and one and two

24:05

thousand and three was actually

24:08

looking at this when the ib sees

24:10

a strain story in twenty i team

24:12

in response to the teacher's pet series

24:15

interviewed nicholas cowdery

24:17

nicholas carry a very senior highly

24:19

regarded lawyer was at

24:21

that time no longer with the office of

24:23

the director of public prosecutions he was no longer

24:26

the man in charge and this is what

24:28

he said on the ib sees a strain

24:30

story about this

24:33

without a body without knowing

24:36

first of all weather and sexy is did

24:39

without knowing secondly if she

24:41

is dead how she died

24:43

it's very hard to mount

24:45

a case of a reasonable prospect

24:47

of conviction just

24:50

, moses

24:53

and the undefined existence

24:56

of means and opportunity that

24:59

makes it very weak in smelting

25:01

the discussion very little consideration

25:04

as being given to christos and

25:06

, position he is either somebody

25:09

responsible for his watch this

25:12

was somebody who was deserted by

25:14

his wife

25:16

we don't know which it is that

25:19

i think we should have that in the back of ama what do

25:21

you think

25:22

happen

25:24

to to endorse him the endorsing

25:26

disappeared

25:27

and that really

25:30

this is

25:31

as far as high can take it

25:34

her in my own mind presumably

25:36

he would still stick with his position and

25:39

at the time which was that there wasn't

25:41

enough evidence roski brought personally would like

25:43

to hear what hear has to say about this

25:45

judgment that's their on their public record for

25:47

anyone to anyone

25:49

the cowdrey know seventy

25:51

six and retired was the

25:53

director of public prosecutions in

25:55

new south wales from nineteen ninety

25:57

four to two thousand two thousand

26:00

it was he who was left with the decision

26:02

to prosecute chris dawson following

26:04

to inquests into her disappearance

26:07

in two thousand and one and two thousand

26:09

and three in both instances

26:11

he declined to press charges against dawson

26:14

despite the recommendations of the coroner's

26:17

citing a lack of evidence in

26:19

two thousand and three after the second inquest

26:22

he wrote to lynn dawson's family and

26:24

this is what he said i have been asked to inform

26:26

you that after very careful consideration

26:29

of all the available information obtained

26:31

by police in the course of their investigations

26:35

and of the evidence heard before the coroner in

26:37

two thousand and three and

26:39

, the earlier in question two thousand and

26:41

one one director has determined

26:44

that there is insufficient evidence to support

26:46

any criminal charge against

26:48

any person in connection

26:50

with the disappearance of lynette joy dawson

26:53

in nineteen eighty two he further

26:55

wrote in the directors view the

26:57

second inquest has not strengthen

27:00

the case against any person beyond

27:03

that which existed when a charge was declined

27:05

to be ordered on twelve november two

27:08

thousand and one i phone mr cowdrey

27:10

yesterday and asked if he might like

27:12

to share his opinion on chris dawson

27:14

being successfully prosecuted for murder

27:17

will be at forty years after the offense

27:20

he said and i'll quote

27:22

i'm not making any public comments

27:25

or statements about it nothing

27:27

at all you've drawn a blank

27:29

on that one that as

27:32

they say

27:33

that nicholas cowdery

27:35

into any ideas also suggests

27:37

that lindell soon could still be alive

27:40

and four limbs family that

27:42

was such was hurtful preposterous

27:44

suggestion that caused and great distress

27:47

was taught before but tensions between journalists

27:51

and

27:51

those in the criminal justice system involved

27:54

with a the prosecuting or defending cases

27:56

but what this case shows is

27:59

that the system

28:00

that's it wrong

28:01

sometimes the only corrective action

28:04

is the kind of media that can

28:06

be applied to actually

28:08

shake things up and cause

28:11

public concern and make these people

28:14

who are making these decisions to be considering

28:16

whether they've made mistakes that they're too

28:18

often believing that they are the final

28:21

arbiter and that nobody else should have a

28:23

go at sighing whether or not

28:25

something has been misunderstood or

28:27

completely misconceived in a

28:29

lot of this stuff is done behind closed doors

28:31

sites once a decision

28:33

has been made not to prosecute to

28:35

reject a car in his recommendation

28:38

that crystals and should have been charged with

28:40

lens murder what happens after this point

28:43

to what extent is that decision then

28:45

reviewed is it a one say that lightly

28:47

that's already been rejected they can move

28:50

on pretty quickly he did that happen over

28:52

the years leading up to

28:54

the final decision by

28:56

prosecutors to actually go ahead with this because

28:59

the reasons for not launching a prosecution

29:02

or never revealed

29:03

that means that is the wrong

29:06

reasoning has been applied if the prosecutors

29:08

behind closed doors have misunderstood

29:11

elements of the case

29:12

they can conceal their mistakes

29:14

they never actually exposed to public

29:17

scrutiny we don't know

29:19

why exactly the dpp

29:22

filed to prosecute this case back

29:24

in two thousand one thousand two thousand two

29:26

thousand and other many years subsequently

29:28

until i finally gave the go ahead and

29:30

like twenty i aimed at the end of a podcast

29:33

series

29:34

they don't have to tell us they're always

29:36

so many reasons why a prosecution

29:38

doesn't for say that that i think over

29:40

arching all of those reasons ease the

29:42

likelihood of getting a conviction it looks bad

29:45

for the day pay to take cases to court

29:47

that don't result in a guilty verdict

29:50

i think it's always worth remembering that

29:52

people at the director of public prosecutions are

29:55

bureaucrats they work to government and

29:57

i are subject to political they said they

29:59

need funding like every other government departments

30:02

i mean the treaties they were

30:04

not going to charge these men until

30:06

he least almost forced them to this is the second

30:08

major case that the new south wales they

30:10

pay has been shown to

30:12

have gotten very badly

30:15

wrong over years the fallout

30:17

from the death of lynette

30:19

daily was horrendous

30:21

for the day pay pay what happened in that case

30:23

was i think another really poor in dot

30:26

and on the decision making processes

30:28

in that office

30:30

consistently the day pay pay

30:32

refused to prosecute two men

30:34

who were said to have been unlawfully

30:37

involved in her killing it was a savage

30:39

series of crimes before she

30:41

finally died bleeding out

30:44

on a lonely beach in northern

30:46

new south wales as a result of some

30:48

fantastic journalism by one

30:50

of our colleagues on the sydney daily telegraph

30:53

janet five yeomans and then followed

30:55

hi carol meldrum hannah on

30:57

the a b c four corners program

30:59

people were understandably

31:01

shocked that the case hadn't been prosecuted

31:04

the office of the day pay then saw

31:06

an external opinion the had to be

31:09

almost

31:10

strong armed into getting that external opinion

31:12

they probably expected the the opinion would come back

31:15

consistent with her own decisions which is

31:17

not enough evidence to prosecute bought

31:19

it came back saying yes you should prosecute

31:21

i did prosecute a jury returned a

31:23

verdict in a very short period of time

31:25

of guilty he's a reminder of that debacle in

31:27

like twenty seventeen the broadcaster

31:30

is mark ladies on tv base

31:32

and talking to one of

31:33

reporting colleagues gonna five yom and

31:35

safe reporter with the daily telegraph are

31:38

just can't believe it amounts to more if

31:40

you haven't read the story if you didn't say on the news last

31:42

night you will read the details

31:44

it is horrifying and it is mortified

31:47

the the dpp gets older they towns

31:49

across his desk

31:51

not once but twice

31:53

rose that now we're not going a proceed

31:55

with the charges the coroner even

31:58

referred this ties back to the

32:00

play play the data

32:02

they did nothing it was through a daily telegraph

32:05

article it was three pressure from journalists

32:07

to the date they pay to do something

32:09

a bad at the disguise fondly got to the cassava

32:12

go to the district court and

32:15

finally justice willamette daily it

32:18

running through the work of yourself and the telegraph's

32:20

that this case ended up in the back in

32:22

the cassava costs and it ended in a

32:24

conviction so you need to be applauded but what

32:26

does it take a journalist was it's i can use by

32:28

bus to do the job of a director of public

32:31

prosecutions

32:32

one of the sky candidate a really good

32:34

job at the inquest if you read the findings a look

32:36

at the evidence he had it all laptop

32:38

he knew exactly what was happening which is why he

32:40

was third the case back to the dpp that

32:43

we don't know why the tpp decided not to

32:45

do anything because unlike previous

32:47

tpp lloyd bob does not

32:49

give interviews and does not explain himself

32:51

i finally get it into the cassava courts

32:54

and then you have a look at what the g juri does

32:56

by come back in thirty two minutes and i had

32:58

the i'm guilty verdicts devices they scraps

33:00

one of the quickest verdicts that we know about

33:02

to the database credit

33:04

eventually they did decide to prosecute

33:06

crystals and then that was after

33:09

after examination of the

33:11

brief of evidence by craig

33:13

anderson who the prosecutor

33:15

at the trial assisted by and blizzards

33:18

and they looked at the evidence

33:20

that i hadn't said yes there is enough

33:22

and they went and nine

33:24

the i deserve credit for doing that there's no

33:26

criticism whatsoever of the prosecutors

33:28

for the why they did eventually run

33:30

this case i'm talking about the decision making

33:32

years earlier we still don't know

33:35

what actually was misunderstood

33:38

by prosecutors and staff of

33:40

that office jenkins

33:42

long suspected that crystals

33:45

and had some kind of special influence

33:47

met office or the the

33:50

people in that office were just filing

33:52

to grasp the seriousness

33:54

of the circumstances in this case

33:57

i think the latter is more likely i

33:59

mean i think what the tragic in

34:01

the situation is that

34:03

once dawson's raft

34:05

of cleverly interlocked lies

34:08

the first time they were exposed to sunlight

34:11

as in this prosecution they

34:13

felt a bit but that to forty

34:15

years

34:24

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35:05

one of the at a really significant points injustice

35:07

and harrison's judgment was his assessment

35:10

of j say this really made

35:12

me sit up and pay attention in court because it's

35:14

something that i had been wondering about since

35:17

listening to this he just hit all those years

35:19

ago and i think we've talked in this

35:21

podcast about the changing perceptions

35:24

of j say over the years

35:26

including by ourselves and the way we talked

35:29

about her experience just

35:31

to see in harrison made it very clean

35:33

in his judgment the heat sifted

35:36

jc description of herself

35:38

as a child from a highness abuse

35:41

he was right upon by

35:43

creek for dawson let's he justice

35:45

a and harrison's words

35:48

the a sustained attack

35:50

upon the evidence was mounted on mr dawson

35:52

behalf part of that

35:54

attack was based upon the contention

35:57

that significant aspect the evidence

35:59

would just rated in the context of

36:02

, acrimonious family court dispute

36:04

with mr dawson and that

36:06

allegations made by does at that

36:08

time were designed technically to enhancer

36:11

position in that litigation one

36:14

such allegations not utilized

36:17

in the litigation per se but

36:19

communicated to the police around

36:22

the same time in nineteen ninety

36:24

was , mr dawson had spoken to

36:27

her years before about

36:29

, man as

36:31

will later appear i'm not able

36:33

to be satisfied that any such conversations

36:36

occurred i

36:38

am however censored that me is evidence

36:41

is otherwise truthful and reliable

36:44

i was struck by her with her evidence concerning

36:47

the development of their relationship with no

36:49

mr dawson while she was still

36:51

at cromer high school i

36:54

, left with the impression that does felt

36:56

that she had been been that she

36:58

had insect been swept up

37:00

in circumstances over which she had only

37:02

limited control she

37:04

was confused and conflicted the

37:07

one hand mr dawson officer friendship

37:10

stability and guidance as

37:12

a well respected and charismatic

37:14

males sega of a kind

37:16

that have been lacking been lacking life on

37:19

the other hand was a piece to found

37:21

herself in an emotional bond with

37:23

a man whose enthusiasm their

37:26

relationship was not matched

37:28

by hers i found

37:30

that much founded

37:32

systems , her evidence that

37:35

she was at the time only a child

37:37

the an evocative description of

37:39

her predicament

37:41

with my that wider metaphorical

37:43

implications he use these words

37:46

why them metaphorical implications

37:49

that you're out wordsmith see

37:51

please explain what you

37:53

talk from that what was he actually

37:55

driving at this

37:57

okay so it's a mean if we were talking about

37:59

and

37:59

will this would be a character device

38:02

you could use in a plot and it would go like

38:04

this

38:05

the reader is observing there

38:07

are two characters

38:09

one

38:10

the male teacher as in

38:12

mr dawson is presented there's

38:15

this figure in the eyes of

38:17

the schoolgirl j c is

38:19

seen as through the replacement

38:21

father the sort of anchor

38:24

that she hasn't had for a long time a

38:26

person she can trust go to and

38:29

seek advice and warmth and

38:31

attention from

38:34

the male characters point of view as in mr

38:36

dawson he is looking at the female

38:38

protagonist in an extremely different

38:40

way he is seeing her potentially as

38:42

a sexual object he

38:45

is he is potentially using

38:47

her so you have you have narrative

38:49

dynamic going on and on a the reader

38:51

knows this is how ccs

38:53

the the relationships this is how he

38:56

sees the relationship so on a ground

38:58

level in terms of the narrative that's

39:00

what we're saying but there is in terms of just

39:02

saracens would abroad a metaphorical

39:05

picture that sort of dumb if

39:08

you look at the two sides of the relationship that only

39:10

the read it concedes you know there

39:12

are two dynamics going on and that potentially

39:14

there is disaster looming because

39:17

they're bussing different things it's a

39:19

really heartbreaking characterization

39:21

of that interest then it especially as not

39:23

anointed at the time that the judge

39:26

was the hearing decreases the doors and nice

39:28

moment as mr dawson as in his

39:31

title as the school teacher he

39:33

was authority safety

39:35

masculinity and see

39:38

needed a protector she

39:40

was so vulnerable i found this

39:42

incredibly powerful he's

39:44

were justice harrison said immediately after

39:46

that

39:47

i refer to these matters in order to indicate

39:50

that i do not consider that miss evidence

39:53

has been corrupted by the influence of

39:55

her separation and divorce

39:58

the hilly in that sense

39:59

the judge torpedoes the suggestion

40:02

by the to say that j c

40:04

is just a bitter ex wife he

40:06

does and i don't think anybody's

40:09

took that seriously but when

40:11

you are completely staff

40:13

to as crystals and was with the

40:15

defense arguments you don't have a feather

40:17

to fly with you

40:20

pull out one of you can i mean i think

40:22

to

40:23

thinking back to observing jc

40:25

the witness stand he can see it

40:27

now very very clearly she was pleading

40:29

throughout her evidence people

40:32

to recognize i was only a child

40:34

when this was happening i think that's what got

40:36

to justice harrison a

40:38

, his assessment of her evidence

40:41

yes employing david tried very hard

40:43

to get to i say to agree with her

40:45

that at jc had it sometime

40:47

been in love with crystals and and that it was

40:50

a romantic relationship it

40:52

sounded on respects

40:55

and respects admiration says

40:57

he wasn't having any of that let's hear

40:59

that interaction between polling david njc

41:02

during cross examination

41:03

the relationship between you and mister dawson

41:06

started as an entirely appropriate teacher

41:08

student relationship didn't during

41:11

the course of that year i suggest you

41:13

in the early part of nineteen eighty one

41:16

the went to see him often because he liked him

41:18

nice i would suggest

41:20

to you that you went to see him because he

41:22

was a nice man and he made you feel special

41:25

yeah

41:25

he certainly didn't try to pretend he wasn't

41:28

married did he i think his behavior towards

41:30

me was inappropriate for school teacher

41:33

you will say that but i'm just were just

41:35

talking about the early stages of nineteen

41:37

eighty degree means

41:39

daves you mean

41:40

simple fact is an as i want

41:42

to suggest to you that you fell in love with

41:45

mr dawson

41:46

the you agree

41:47

no

41:48

the laser points you fell in love with mr

41:50

dawson did new after he grins

41:52

me and abuse me and insisted

41:54

that i marry him

41:56

i wanted the just hear that the relationship

41:58

developed to the point where he fell in love with

41:59

yeah

42:02

and you fell in love with him not so much

42:04

nine i was a child it

42:06

wasn't a relationship i

42:08

object to calling what he was doing

42:10

to me a relationship the

42:13

you to come into my room and brush up

42:15

against me

42:17

the night bestial attention to me and my

42:19

made me feel as though he was targeting

42:22

the which was inappropriate regardless

42:25

of what i said to him that was the

42:27

appropriate

42:28

i could you to you that the relationship was born

42:30

of a genuine affection that you develop towards

42:33

him

42:33

no a mortgage i see was

42:36

is always has been

42:38

the star witness in these proceedings if

42:40

there ever was a star witness see

42:42

the person he first went to the place and kicked

42:44

all of this off back in nineteen ninety it's

42:47

and has essentially maintained

42:49

her story her version of events in

42:52

all of the year since and just as harrison

42:55

has accepted pretty much everything

42:57

she's said with the exception of

42:59

what that she has said about the hitman allegation

43:02

everything else to judge said he believed

43:04

it this way because of the edits that

43:06

have been required have been listening again

43:08

to watch jaycee said in

43:10

nineteen ninety eight to the police detective

43:12

damien lane and her accounts

43:15

of such a troubled home loss

43:17

in this crowded slathered day why

43:19

with her stepfather who was an alcoholic

43:22

hunt he

43:24

the room

43:25

and her mother who was also

43:27

drinking quite a lot and there was

43:29

none of room in that place there

43:31

was the author of this

43:33

big home at flashy

43:35

bayview with a swimming pool and

43:38

a so called protector in crystals

43:40

and say sees depiction in nineteen

43:43

ninety eight of what was going on in

43:45

the early nineteen eighties is consistent

43:47

with what justice harrison actually heard

43:49

from her in twenty twenty two

43:51

very hopefully but perhaps not

43:53

so much for chris dawson

43:55

defence lawyer actually tended

43:57

episode three of the t

43:59

the pay

44:01

just as harrison said in his judgment

44:03

that he had listen to episode

44:06

three while reading the transcript of it as

44:08

well as episode one which

44:10

polling day but also tended to he

44:13

got from that the since

44:15

from other people of what was

44:17

going on in jaycees home life while

44:19

we're here that a tactical

44:21

error by the defense to give

44:24

the judge episode one and

44:26

episodes ray of the podcast which contained

44:28

which contained lot of material that hadn't been presented

44:30

as evidence intro probably never know the answer

44:33

that days but i thought it was a curious

44:35

decision when it was made and

44:37

i was trying to understand why those

44:40

two episodes certainly episodes

44:42

one in three really frames i see

44:45

in the light where she's clearly

44:47

coming from a very troubled home

44:50

at a time when crystal some was

44:52

taking an extremely keen

44:54

interest in her and

44:57

he had these issues with her mother and

44:59

her father regular fistfights

45:02

in the home and in one of those yes

45:05

he got hurt was taken to the police station

45:07

to have her injuries photographed craig

45:10

anderson the see the crown prosecutor warned

45:12

us about this from the early days of the trial

45:14

about the double edge sword and

45:16

how often it would emerge in this tremendous

45:19

exactly what we're discussing that in

45:21

those episodes headley if you're

45:24

looking through the eyes of the dawson camp than

45:27

he is a supportive teach and looking out

45:29

for a damage student who potentially

45:31

is at risk and may not be able to acquit

45:33

her right to see if you look from look

45:36

from ses point of view this as an arts

45:38

predator so again both

45:40

sides of the sort

45:41

those episodes of the teacher's pet that the judge

45:44

was handed also frame lind dawson

45:46

you had all their friends who work

45:49

colleagues one after the other reinforcing

45:52

that she would not have left her children which kind

45:54

to be a really significant actor

45:57

in justice harrison's decision to

45:59

the crystals and

46:01

i think just to go back to our discussion

46:04

about the dp pado and not

46:06

to charge the dpp

46:08

would have been considering that these would probably

46:10

be probably jury trial as most

46:12

murder trials are and i

46:14

think one of the considerations

46:17

would have been how will dry see and

46:19

hear experience play with a jury

46:21

i don't think our society is quite there yet

46:23

in terms of understanding that people

46:26

who come from abuse vulnerable

46:28

child victims sometimes

46:31

d behave in ways that put them

46:33

in them path of prejudice

46:36

a real consideration i think

46:38

propensity is a factor

46:41

to why here in the inquest

46:43

in two thousand and three j c

46:46

was regarded as a very strong witness

46:49

and com milliband of it's who was the

46:51

deputy state kona who ran that inquest

46:53

told me that he believed that jc

46:55

would be a very persuasive witness

46:58

now of course that's in front of him for trained

47:00

lawyer who has watched hundreds

47:02

probably thousands of witnesses giving their evidence

47:05

and can apply his mine in a

47:07

very balanced and objective

47:09

why it doesn't take account of what you're

47:11

talking about clay which is the very

47:13

subjective views that may be applied

47:16

by random jurors is

47:18

one other point that com alabama

47:20

which made when we spoke

47:22

to him in late twenty seventeen at

47:24

his home west of sydney he believed

47:27

that j c was also

47:29

a truth teller and he believes that

47:31

her evidence was powerful however

47:33

he did say that he wasn't sure

47:36

whether the hitman allegation

47:38

would withstand the kind of attack

47:41

that it would no doubt commander from

47:43

a defense lawyer

47:44

in a murder trial and it was really

47:46

interesting that in his raisins

47:49

justice harrison dealt with

47:51

the hitman allegation in a way

47:53

that was different to the way he dealt with

47:55

her other evidence keys were just as in

47:57

harrison said about that

47:59

the crown advances evidence to

48:02

, that it is significantly

48:05

properties that in nineteen eighty one mr

48:07

dawson contemplated contemplated

48:09

a third party to kill his wife and

48:11

that it has significant probative value

48:14

on the issue of whether the issue her insects

48:16

either alone or with the assistance of someone

48:19

else in january nineteen ninety

48:21

two mr

48:23

dawson challenges this the

48:27

evidence on a number of bases

48:30

miss has given differing

48:33

versions of what she said occurred one

48:35

, has mr dawson telling her

48:38

why he went into a hotel when he returned

48:40

to the car where's another

48:42

version has him relating his purpose of

48:44

doing so some weeks later secondly

48:48

me but this does not ever referred

48:50

to a brown paper person in the glovebox

48:53

even , her friend was list of suggests

48:56

of this was part of the version of the incident was

48:58

was , thirdly

49:01

even though miss this has indicated that she

49:03

told gregory and maryland seems and

49:05

it gregory seems does not

49:07

refer to these evidence in chief although

49:10

he did agree and cross examination that

49:12

have a karate or inquest he

49:14

said that this did tell him that mr

49:17

dawson had said he was going to hire

49:19

a hitman but it changed his mind

49:22

maryland seems similarly on he mentions

49:24

it when prompted to do so in cross examination

49:28

fourthly by the time but his first told

49:30

anyone about the incident she was effectively

49:32

in family court proceedings with mr dawson

49:36

and facing a court ordered return

49:38

to queensland with her daughter is

49:40

her custody rights we're not going to be in

49:42

jeopardy interrelated

49:44

, it was not until after list

49:46

mr darcy early nineteen ninety

49:49

that she ever spoke to anyone at all about

49:51

the possibility that mr dawson

49:54

may have killed his wife this

49:56

way it seems improbable in the extreme

49:59

that mr dawes

50:00

more generally anyone the

50:03

on the crown case was contemplating killing

50:06

his wife would tell his young

50:08

and impressionable impressionable

50:11

and , one view somewhat reluctant

50:13

lover seduce contemplating

50:16

arranging for his then wife to be murdered

50:19

properly understood it is in my view

50:22

the improbable that mr dot dawson

50:25

who on evidence had been regularly

50:27

asking her to marry even

50:30

while he was still married the

50:32

thought that his chances of securing her

50:34

agreement to or

50:36

indeed any kind of enthusiasm

50:38

for his promos a

50:41

proposal somehow be

50:43

in charge enhanced by

50:45

making it clear to her that he was

50:47

prepared to murder his was so that

50:49

that could happen the

50:51

ground did not embrace a theory that i should

50:53

find that mr dawson said they seemed to

50:56

me as , conflicts

50:58

plan to raise the idea of

51:00

killing his wife in in science of doing so

51:03

so order that he might later rely upon

51:05

his change of mind as evidence

51:07

of these total rejection of the idea finally

51:10

and finally isolation the evidence taken

51:13

literally supports the inference

51:15

that mr dawson had i thought

51:18

at one time around arranged

51:20

for someone to kill his wife but that

51:22

he discarded it

51:25

seems to me to be difficult legitimately

51:27

to reason to a conclusion that giving

51:29

voice to a proposal that is simultaneously

51:31

rejected can be probity

51:34

the of anything at all it

51:36

, that are not satisfied that mr dawson

51:38

ever said that he had the

51:42

killed in it to some but he

51:44

changed his mind

51:47

recently i found the hitman allegation

51:49

to be entirely believable and

51:52

plausible there was nothing really

51:54

outlandish about the story crystals

51:56

and said that he was

51:58

going to get a hit man and then he

52:00

decided against

52:02

really as simple as that the judges

52:04

been able to separate these parts of

52:06

her evidence and still find j c

52:08

credible i think that also might

52:11

protect this judgment against the

52:13

inevitable appeal from crystal

52:15

since there's one less fact that

52:18

he has to take down the judges

52:20

findings against him i find it completely

52:22

plausible that the

52:24

often in this situation might

52:27

take jc in her school uniform

52:29

along to a place where he was going to meet

52:31

someone to ask them about killing his

52:33

and that he would tell her about that jc

52:36

has said

52:38

he should we in her evidence that she

52:40

was being groomed and that she was essentially

52:42

under the control with crystals and crystals

52:45

and didn't need to worry about

52:47

jc judging him he

52:49

had her the thing it is

52:52

on the one hand you have this great basket

52:54

of evidence in relation to the

52:57

gangland connections of people involved

52:59

with the newtown just rugby league club we

53:02

have a hit man who is actually

53:04

directly connected to the

53:06

club through his relation poll

53:09

high would and as a boost to

53:11

jaycees evidence about chris

53:14

dawson saying that he went to see a hitman

53:16

to see if he could get lean knocked off we

53:19

have many many years lysa a

53:21

former new ten rugby league player coming

53:23

forward and giving evidence in the trial

53:26

saying that he was actually

53:28

asked by crystals and about this to

53:31

admittedly some six years before

53:34

dawson is said to have done it when he went with

53:36

i say we talking of course about

53:38

robert suitland on the other hand you have a situation

53:40

where say see says

53:42

that she didn't realize until

53:45

nineteen ninety that's

53:47

eight years are still in dawson disappears

53:50

that crystals and probably killed

53:53

his first wife and what's striking about that

53:55

is that some nine years earlier according

53:58

to jaycees evidence they

54:00

did go with crystals and to this place

54:02

where he inquired about a hitman so

54:05

there's a bit of a disconnect why

54:07

would she have not been more suspicious about what

54:09

happened to limb dawson for nine

54:12

years before ninety ninety if that

54:14

hitman meeting had taken

54:16

place the i totally

54:18

accept that a young impressionable mind

54:21

could be clouded by those sorts

54:23

of things but it has always struck

54:25

me as a bit odd i don't agree

54:27

with his on his reasoning and i don't disagree i

54:30

don't know what to make of the whole hitman

54:32

climb the other part of this is

54:34

that if you are being promised a new

54:36

lies with crystals and

54:38

as jc was wouldn't

54:41

you be very concerned about

54:43

how that lies my the end if

54:45

he has disclosed to you failure early

54:47

in the relationship that he's gone to see

54:49

a man to kill his first wife or what an impressionable

54:52

teenagers take the whole

54:54

seeking of a hitman allegation as

54:57

an umbrella or so of strength which

54:59

she could rely on jaycee said

55:01

in her evidence repeatedly that

55:03

crystals and would prepare a drink soda

55:05

mean that when would go to sleep

55:08

and that then crease nj say

55:10

would have sex or would at least be

55:12

alone together in that jaime bayview

55:16

that suggests to me that chris was drugging

55:19

lean so if j c was

55:21

prepared to accept a situation in

55:23

which is that was happening

55:24

i think there's absolutely no

55:27

then why she wouldn't accept

55:29

other audacious things that

55:31

crystals and was allegedly do like

55:33

killing her about his attempts to get a hitman

55:36

jc was we

55:38

vulnerable in his situation she can't

55:41

be expected to apply the

55:43

kind of judgment or reasoning

55:45

that's a someone like me would

55:47

apply as an adult woman or v

55:50

that a sixteen year olds who didn't come from an

55:52

abusive home would be able to apply

55:55

when abuse is in the picture

55:57

judgment

55:58

he be considered in a complete

55:59

the different laws i'm going to get off the fence

56:02

on this and say that i actually think

56:04

i see is telling the truth about the

56:06

hitman allegations but that

56:08

it was difficult for his honor

56:11

to take it into account given the very

56:13

obvious concerns all of which is

56:15

right

56:15

his harrison didn't verbalize

56:18

these

56:18

the be judgment so we've asked

56:21

a voice actor

56:22

read what was written days

56:24

of just as harrison's words it's not

56:26

his voice

56:28

jc got her driver

56:30

license in nineteen eighty two mr

56:33

dawson told her to drive he

56:36

learned to drive around the d why area

56:38

where she lived at the time jc

56:41

had had bag which mr dawson

56:43

had bought her the regularly

56:45

found nuts of love and affection from

56:47

him in her bag whenever

56:49

she had biology in ninety

56:51

nine when she left

56:53

the marriage and nineteen ninety mr

56:55

dawson told her to destroy them

56:58

mr dawson disputes this

57:01

however

57:02

the kept the originals of the knights but

57:04

cannot now find them all she's

57:07

shy these nights to police officers

57:10

lawyers and friends that

57:12

copies of some of these nights with tended

57:15

in these proceedings they

57:17

are referred to later in

57:19

these reasons

57:21

harrison continues by

57:23

nineteen eighty one this has

57:25

developed interest

57:26

your relationship

57:28

they had sex every friday night

57:31

thereafter mr dawson would

57:33

pick her up and drive to manly

57:36

it would stop at a convenience store to buy

57:38

her chocolate and i would have sex

57:40

in his car at manly points

57:43

they had sex at his home that

57:45

nearing on university

57:48

that his brother paul dawson's house

57:50

and at her sister's home they

57:53

also had sex at his office at

57:55

school that to go

57:57

winger drive when lynette there

58:00

was a slave or in the shower in

58:02

the evening mister

58:04

, ass jc to marry

58:06

him over and over and

58:08

over again until

58:10

she agreed while still

58:12

at school

58:14

the dawson disputes this

58:17

i've gotta say matt listening to that

58:20

the line about the chocolate really seen

58:22

the chills down my spine as

58:24

does the regularity of regularity and

58:26

the kind of routine is it every friday

58:29

night

58:29

the retain of stopping at the convenience

58:31

store to buy chocolate and then

58:33

have six in the car

58:36

the really disturbing it is very disturbing

58:38

mean the purchase of the chocolate we haven't heard that before

58:41

it's extremely

58:43

evocative

58:44

the predator

58:46

luring

58:47

a young teenager with a a

58:50

currency that the only she would understand

58:53

the offline out to present this morning to see

58:55

you guys into record decision with sitting in

58:57

the studio of our wonderful producer tiffany

58:59

d mack in this others as balmoral by

59:01

the river and headley i know we're going

59:03

somewhere our studies where exactly

59:05

that i'm going to drive your close the story

59:07

bridge place to place called new farm

59:09

where will then head to

59:12

the home of just davies just

59:14

lives by the river and he's involved

59:16

this this or that we can interview him about

59:19

consciousness of guilt and the

59:21

issues that the judge would have had to weigh

59:24

in relation to all of these laws

59:26

by chris dawson before determining

59:29

that they were lies born out

59:31

of

59:31

the guilt that crystals and had

59:34

either leans murder rather than some other

59:36

thing that was going on jeffries

59:38

of towering legal figure have

59:40

known him for many years he sent me a very warm

59:43

night last week after the verdict

59:45

will come back and to this prick

59:57

this podcast is made possible by subscribers

59:59

previous try him and by a principal

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sponsor harvey norman

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the rider five years harvey norman has

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been a key partner in the us try and

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investigative podcast such as the

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and the teacher's pet the australians

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coverage of this trial is only

1:00:17

made possible with the support of our

1:00:19

subscribers and our partnership

1:00:21

with harvey norman

1:00:33

italy to me for a quick bite to eat at

1:00:35

the fish cafe knee and you found pok

1:00:37

and then to the nearby home of gif davies

1:00:39

a retired supreme court judge and

1:00:42

a former solicitor general of queensland

1:00:45

cosa say yeah

1:00:47

okay and minds recording

1:00:49

to

1:00:50

right

1:00:51

though

1:00:52

yes in crystals son's murder trial

1:00:55

alleged lies told by him became

1:00:57

a significant feature and certainly

1:01:00

figured prominently in the judges

1:01:02

detailed raisins please

1:01:04

tell us what consciousness

1:01:06

of guilt means in the context

1:01:08

of this trial and why it

1:01:11

was so relevant well first of all

1:01:13

the cross a prosecution need to prove

1:01:16

beyond reasonable doubt three things

1:01:19

the first is that a statement

1:01:21

made by the accused was alive

1:01:24

that means of libert on trace

1:01:27

secondly at must praise

1:01:29

the lie related

1:01:32

to a relevant issue in the

1:01:34

trial and thirdly

1:01:37

mass praise

1:01:39

the reason for the lie was

1:01:42

because the accused feared

1:01:44

that , trace who had revealed his

1:01:47

guilt guilt applying that

1:01:49

to this to ah a

1:01:51

relevant issue in the case

1:01:53

in undoubtedly whether

1:01:56

lynette dawson was alive

1:01:59

or dead

1:01:59

after the ice of january nineteen

1:02:02

eighty two that's today

1:02:04

on which you are supposed to have less time

1:02:07

the judge found that

1:02:09

she died on or about that date

1:02:13

so the two questions were

1:02:16

it doesn't lie

1:02:19

about that

1:02:21

seems as if he did for example

1:02:23

saying that she rang him after

1:02:25

that date

1:02:28

secondly

1:02:30

the do make the lie

1:02:31

because he was conscience

1:02:34

the truth that is that she was dead

1:02:37

would reveal the fact

1:02:40

that

1:02:41

he had made it her or at least because

1:02:43

he feared that precise and

1:02:46

, a no circumstances circumstances

1:02:48

judge was entitled to use

1:02:51

to not only to show

1:02:53

that he was untraceable from time

1:02:55

to time he lied because he

1:02:57

feared that the truce

1:03:00

namely that she was dead would

1:03:02

reveal

1:03:04

that he had murder then for

1:03:06

the judge to have come to that position

1:03:09

in relation to the lies he first

1:03:11

had to find that lynn dawson

1:03:14

the deceased yes and

1:03:17

, found around other evidence of course

1:03:19

he must find first and he did scientists

1:03:22

said she died on or about that duct

1:03:25

if you are hearing this case would

1:03:27

you have approached it that way and so far

1:03:29

as working out whether the

1:03:32

alleged victim was alive or dead

1:03:34

before you went on to the other parts yes

1:03:37

i fucked up with the correct way to approach as

1:03:39

to court of appeal judge you

1:03:41

reviewed probably

1:03:43

hundreds of cases the

1:03:45

have been decided at trial

1:03:47

by jury or perhaps in rare instances

1:03:50

by judge alone this

1:03:52

case from what you've reviewed strike

1:03:54

you as unusual in

1:03:56

anyway when i think it was

1:03:59

a very unusual that is ah

1:04:01

not least because of your podcast and

1:04:04

the and the time lapse a huge time

1:04:06

apps forty years or so between

1:04:08

, the commission of the of

1:04:11

and the trial sides

1:04:14

are a number of very odd

1:04:16

aspects of it or not it's

1:04:18

it's a case which is extraordinarily

1:04:20

unusual is certainly out

1:04:23

, my recollection ah

1:04:25

and sadly hurt

1:04:27

their say few cases that have

1:04:30

been tried my judge alone so

1:04:32

they have some very odd aspects of the case

1:04:34

and of course they're still being nobody's

1:04:37

to be found exactly this

1:04:40

many people believe that in

1:04:42

the absence of a body a conviction

1:04:45

of an accused person is almost

1:04:47

certainly

1:04:48

the room to file

1:04:51

that true no don't think

1:04:53

so on nectar put a number of cases

1:04:56

including cases that i have been

1:04:58

remotely involved in with

1:05:00

, been nobody an efficient

1:05:03

has been convicted the other point that lawyers

1:05:05

rise that lawyers in a case

1:05:07

that is is entirely circumstantial

1:05:10

such as

1:05:12

this case

1:05:13

it's also very difficult to achieve

1:05:16

the guilty verdict is that

1:05:19

correct on the other hand

1:05:21

i do the circumstances join together

1:05:23

become quite powerful when looked

1:05:25

at the whole yes

1:05:28

i think to a lot of ah

1:05:31

the pieces of evidence which together

1:05:34

might have fairly substantial case

1:05:37

during the trial justice harrison

1:05:39

was very careful to say at

1:05:41

a number of points that he was

1:05:43

obliged to put himself in

1:05:45

them the end of a member of

1:05:47

a jury but i'm really intrigued

1:05:50

vet how it's possible for a judge

1:05:52

to do that given that judges of

1:05:54

course has extensive legal training

1:05:57

and years experience and as

1:05:59

and number

1:05:59

the hidden ringing around inside

1:06:02

their heads how do you actually

1:06:04

separate actually of that league

1:06:06

knowledge from probably the

1:06:08

very simple and binary thinking

1:06:10

that thinking that member of the community

1:06:12

might bring

1:06:13

ah a judge

1:06:16

trying any civil case generally

1:06:19

fun zone effect first and

1:06:22

, apply the law to the facts

1:06:24

facts i don't think the fact finding

1:06:27

prices is anything foreign

1:06:29

to a to way

1:06:31

overdue that and we do that all the time

1:06:33

and we really should be finding should facts

1:06:37

and the relevant fact because in the back

1:06:39

of our minds we neither legal principles

1:06:42

were neither to apply so

1:06:44

the only difference would be that

1:06:47

a judge would be thinking in

1:06:49

terms of relevant principles

1:06:51

in what sort of case it is

1:06:54

what legal category

1:06:56

of fits into while

1:06:58

he or she is finding the facts

1:07:01

it's always said and and judges say

1:07:04

that they are completely

1:07:06

unaffected by publicity that certainly something

1:07:08

that media lawyers tell us that

1:07:10

judges align cannot be affected by

1:07:12

anything that that the media is doing justice

1:07:15

harrison was careful to santa number

1:07:17

had hasn't said he hadn't listened to the teacher's pet

1:07:20

how does judge said that how do you

1:07:22

set yourself off from what is happening

1:07:24

in the community around you in particular

1:07:26

off high profile case like this

1:07:28

i think it's impossible to do

1:07:31

it completely

1:07:32

because we all have prejudices

1:07:35

ah points of view we might call

1:07:38

him but i think we are product

1:07:40

of our background ,

1:07:42

social background air pistol

1:07:45

history and , i

1:07:47

think in many respects were applying

1:07:49

that that a view of the

1:07:51

community rather than our

1:07:53

own views so it's impossible

1:07:56

it's think to cut ourselves off from iran

1:07:58

personal views

1:07:59

but the judges

1:08:01

and as i hope ah tend

1:08:04

to try to do that ah and

1:08:06

sometimes it is very hard because

1:08:09

, may be contrary to views which you

1:08:12

personally held held

1:08:14

i think that we have on

1:08:16

the have been reasonably successful in

1:08:18

doing that just doesn't follow

1:08:20

the in a judge align trial the

1:08:22

burden of responsibility for the judge

1:08:24

for the decision maker

1:08:26

is much heavier compared

1:08:29

with a jury trial of course it

1:08:31

is because , judge has

1:08:33

defined facts and he has to find them

1:08:35

beyond reasonable doubt doubt

1:08:38

not something of a judge ordinarily does

1:08:40

her and in a criminal trial where you have

1:08:42

a have you're leaving the finding

1:08:45

effects in town a to the jury and

1:08:48

simply directing the jury on the legal

1:08:50

principles i must apply enriching

1:08:52

the verdict

1:08:53

if i'm curious about the finding

1:08:55

that windows and was definitely did

1:08:57

was it the absence of evidence

1:09:00

of lean being alive is that enough to

1:09:02

demonstrate that she was do i think there was

1:09:04

a lot more evidence

1:09:07

of the affected she

1:09:09

had no suicidal suits

1:09:12

see , to be ah

1:09:15

a happy and caring mother of her

1:09:17

children she had a lot of friends

1:09:20

ah the circumstances in which she

1:09:22

left same very odd

1:09:25

that she didn't take any clothes or

1:09:27

any money or

1:09:29

seem to have no and particular to go

1:09:31

i think there are a huge number affects

1:09:34

none of which on their own would have been sufficient

1:09:36

to reach that conclusion but which together

1:09:39

the judge thought bush sufficient to

1:09:41

reach that conclusion i was wondering all

1:09:43

day as i was listening to that said it wouldn't

1:09:46

be possible that the judge

1:09:47

cool having sound all these things that

1:09:49

greeted lied about could the judge still

1:09:51

find that

1:09:52

however

1:09:54

someone else might have later tehran on friday

1:09:56

the eighth of january ordered

1:09:59

he the murder herbert killed

1:10:01

her after her her struggle

1:10:03

with her and i ,

1:10:05

intend to kill hero to

1:10:08

grievous bodily harm her given

1:10:11

the fact that the judge relied on

1:10:13

too

1:10:14

fine christos and guilty of murder

1:10:17

that , lies told by crystals

1:10:19

and in the very beginning for a couple

1:10:21

of years after was does it now beg

1:10:24

the question of why this case took

1:10:26

forty years to prosecute i

1:10:28

think it's very hard to understand her

1:10:30

to forty years to prosecute it's

1:10:33

a beyond my understanding you

1:10:35

raise the possibility of

1:10:38

possibility think manslaughter

1:10:40

an unintended

1:10:42

killing of li and rather than

1:10:44

a premeditated murder and

1:10:46

and have you for many view about

1:10:48

the likely situation in this case

1:10:50

or or was at to submit you are

1:10:52

rising as an example of

1:10:55

ratios example ah i

1:10:57

hardly see that arose in this case

1:11:00

know karate right karate cup of coffee or cup tell

1:11:02

us to a guy

1:11:06

where we are now in

1:11:08

fortitude valley on the way to

1:11:10

brisbane airport where i think he will

1:11:12

just make your six pm flight granted

1:11:15

five eight

1:11:15

creepy i'm right now you're going to have to floor when we

1:11:17

get onto the free [unk]

1:11:18

i will you might hear the

1:11:20

rumble of this issue very

1:11:22

nice and turbojet we've both

1:11:25

had had day

1:11:26

billie haven't i think

1:11:28

right

1:11:29

in vain nicer

1:11:32

the judgment

1:11:38

wake on from

1:11:39

thirty one we all had time to digest

1:11:41

it a little bit

1:11:42

the

1:11:45

when we had finished the interviews

1:11:48

having couples hey did you hear him talking

1:11:50

about the decisions that

1:11:52

a judgment

1:11:54

right yeah for

1:11:56

a lot of judges

1:11:58

notwithstanding

1:11:59

overwhelming circumstantial evidence

1:12:03

might , zone he played a lot

1:12:05

of judges would have said well yes

1:12:07

there is all that still

1:12:09

go

1:12:15

right

1:12:18

so the embarrassing to have done

1:12:20

this he was implying

1:12:24

bearing in mind the obligation on

1:12:26

him to think like a juror

1:12:29

they want no other

1:12:30

conclusion that a reasonable person could

1:12:33

draw

1:12:34

i thought given the amount of evidence

1:12:36

that we've seen in the sky

1:12:40

really powerful motive the

1:12:43

series of lies mendoza

1:12:49

morehead developers

1:12:51

, him him january

1:12:53

i going to that it would be

1:12:55

courageous to find christos not

1:12:58

kill what gives referring to there

1:13:00

is a tendency to

1:13:04

make a decision and of like

1:13:06

the dpp did in two thousand and one

1:13:08

nine three thousand and one that

1:13:11

is effectively and combat

1:13:13

the most powerful in short sentence

1:13:15

that he said with when you asked

1:13:18

him

1:13:19

why he thought the dpp

1:13:21

had not charged crit often over

1:13:23

all of ideas and ,

1:13:25

said there's no reason that i can think of

1:13:29

any of the day

1:13:30

known him

1:13:37

they play about these sorts of issues and

1:13:39

was right

1:13:42

heavily on when i get the authenticity

1:13:44

and i'm going to have a massive pile of expensive

1:13:48

one

1:13:50

of them i know i will be from a young reportedly

1:13:53

amended he doesn't have to young

1:13:55

jenna lamb he formally

1:13:57

pain of talk for hours

1:13:59

and running through time and

1:14:02

on the date very gothic away

1:14:04

one joke die day

1:14:06

on the door

1:14:07

the void

1:14:09

eventually found himself

1:14:11

at the whole

1:14:13

with is a tramp dog

1:14:15

there are a god

1:14:17

as

1:14:19

an intrepid young you know he knew that he then when you're

1:14:21

supposed to do lamppost

1:14:23

bike in the middle of a stray

1:14:25

amazingly

1:14:28

hockey photo of pulled off taking

1:14:32

on a c

1:14:37

that moment whole new and maybe

1:14:39

even thinking about the fact that has

1:14:42

been happening my

1:14:45

way of fall that photo came back to the

1:14:48

office an answer to me is it okay fi

1:14:50

expensive three hundred of hockey find

1:14:52

that the bike that i had to leave

1:15:02

i'll make sure we link to

1:15:04

it in china the

1:15:07

where have you listening to this episode have episode have

1:15:09

at the it description and will we

1:15:11

commit to the story and at first

1:15:13

the teachers trial dot com [unk] torah

1:15:16

you and the teachers today

1:15:19

you

1:15:19

and heavily sign right

1:15:22

to be able to say that the teachers

1:15:29

configured filler at a foot getting close

1:15:31

to the carpet they hit with a that

1:15:37

wait and will make another

1:15:42

well i try to make you welcome in brisbane

1:15:47

before you guy the team here at the australian

1:15:49

have a new podcast investigation

1:15:51

it's available now on all podcast

1:15:54

platforms

1:15:55

it's called head noise

1:15:58

first day was anxiety

1:16:00

then recurring frustration

1:16:02

over everyday things it's ,

1:16:05

not to wonder what the sports we all lost

1:16:07

due to our brains brains me

1:16:09

james graham from the australians just hard

1:16:12

as we discover the impact behind the impacts

1:16:14

had noticed an explosive podcast

1:16:17

investigation listen now wherever

1:16:19

you get your

1:16:27

david murray [unk] mathieu condon clay

1:16:29

hobby and i will be back next week

1:16:31

with another episode of the teachers trial

1:16:34

in the meantime you can read all the coverage

1:16:36

right now at the teachers trial

1:16:38

dot com dot i you the teachers

1:16:40

trial pod pasta is written in pot

1:16:42

and presented by me headley thomas

1:16:45

with assistance and contributions from

1:16:47

my colleagues editorial director

1:16:49

and host of the front podcast clay a

1:16:51

hobby senior reporter matthew com

1:16:53

the national crime correspondent david

1:16:56

murray executive producer del forum

1:16:58

and produce a christian amy at it

1:17:00

music and audio production by wasabi

1:17:03

audio for more information

1:17:05

more information ongoing trial and latest

1:17:07

updates from our journalists go

1:17:09

to the teachers trial dot com

1:17:12

what are you