0:00

loading the kids in the car brokering

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peace in the backseat the heat during the snout

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are simple thing somehow for cough for to

0:08

stop hopefully with auto with auto

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doesn't have to be one of them we work at

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like figuring out what's growing and that cup

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holder that's important i'm in san

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ask your independent agent auto owners make sense

0:29

for years before we saw a quick warning

0:31

this podcast is obviously about

0:34

an alleged murder and we've been discussing

0:36

some distressing content

0:38

if they decide is also some

0:40

adult language

0:46

the the country's most high profile trials

0:48

is under way more than forty years

0:51

of the crystals and is accused of murdering

0:53

his wife one is saying that disposing

0:55

of her body

0:56

he vanished from they bayview hi i'm in

0:58

nineteen eighty two facility sci fi

1:00

there was little progress until police

1:02

incessantly extradited to from

1:05

planes landing twenty i came is

1:07

always process these innocent

1:08

christopher michael dawson says

1:11

he's been waiting for this die happy

1:13

to finally have done to why now is

1:16

very heavy my

1:18

, is heavily thomas and i'm a journalist

1:20

with a particular interest in podcast

1:22

investigations into the alleged

1:24

murders of women in australia australia

1:27

is episode seventeen about new

1:29

podcast series the teachers the

1:32

it's brought to you by to australian

1:35

the trial of christopher michael dawson

1:37

a former high school physical education

1:39

teacher for the alleged murder of his

1:42

wife lynn a doting mother

1:44

of two little girl in sydney

1:46

for decades ago you

1:48

can follow the case at the newspapers

1:50

digital side and at yes

1:56

the unclear how the host as the australians

1:59

daily news

1:59

the out the front

2:01

this is our last teaches trial

2:03

beside a for justice and harrison

2:06

brings down his verdict in a murder trial

2:08

of christopher dawson that's coming

2:10

on tuesday all this thirty right

2:13

episode we're going to see it some more of your

2:16

feedback and answer the questions

2:18

you've been asking we're also going

2:20

to hear that allies the a recount of making

2:22

lean before he does here and has

2:25

lingered in the middle it it always is

2:27

and will hear about some of the people

2:29

who been caught wind is it it comes down

2:32

on august thirty and

2:34

will discuss the war we used

2:36

to talk about these events as so

2:39

long ago haley after

2:41

we are so audience for some questions

2:43

that humming it's been so wonderful

2:45

rating all of these emails of

2:47

course we don't have time to respond to them all individually

2:50

but please know that we are reading them let's

2:53

he one of those questions from jane

2:55

me to brown

2:57

the early episodes of the teacher's

2:59

pet podcast a woman recalled

3:02

that befall and went missing she

3:04

came into the lady stress sell

3:06

on to order a new dress during

3:09

those measurements the lady knows

3:11

his fingers shite bruises on

3:13

both arms and a huge ugly

3:16

bruise on his saw he

3:18

was shot in asked me what she had

3:20

done to herself

3:21

the reply was oh well

3:24

it's a long story you see

3:26

i'm married to a very violent man

3:29

the woman account of this event was compatible

3:31

with what some others had said about bruising

3:35

and i'm wondering if this person was

3:37

called to give his story at the trial

3:40

hi , is highly from brisbane for

3:43

question is regarding other strand arcade

3:46

and shop owner hedge noticed bruising

3:48

ally the lynn of read nothing

3:50

and heard nothing during this trial and

3:53

always just wondered why that is has it not

3:55

been submitted as evidence

3:56

player these listeners

3:59

are remember

3:59

the interview with lorraine watson

4:02

i talked to her in a retirement

4:05

home on the northern beaches in

4:07

december twenty seventeen i remember the day

4:09

well because i had just come

4:11

with rebecca hazel and us and

4:13

recorders mcadams jazz bar from

4:16

the home of a net leary we

4:18

had spoken to a net on an incredibly

4:20

hot day right at that time

4:22

was easy to the operated

4:25

for many years a bridal sell

4:27

on in the strand arcade

4:29

in the heart of sydney and it

4:31

wasn't until two thousand and three

4:34

after watching the ib sees a stray

4:36

and story that see contacted

4:38

the detective damien lane here's

4:41

what we used in the podcast

4:43

called bruised that was episode

4:45

three of the teacher's pet with

4:48

heard from julie andrews and

4:50

in it leery about grab max

4:53

the bruising that i saw means i'm

4:56

the short drive from a nets house is

4:58

a retirement village where i met lorraine

5:00

watson

5:02

the rain owned a bridal sell them for twenty

5:04

years and george strait in the heart of sydney

5:06

in , strand arcade arcade

5:09

linate timing to the shop

5:11

flight one afternoon to

5:14

gaze at during my the some occasion

5:16

that she was going to adults

5:21

when we took her into the dressing

5:23

room to tie

5:25

her measurements i notice

5:28

say

5:28

very strong finger marks on

5:31

her arms lighting

5:34

a match what well i could see the

5:36

shy syngas

5:38

the

5:40

on her arms a

5:43

side but i never said anything because

5:45

she you know we just

5:47

made or and we didn't wanna sodas

5:50

brought into a business

5:52

any why wait she got undressed

5:54

or notice on her saw i had

5:56

looked as if someone has ticked off in

6:01

i said you were god what the hell

6:03

have you been doing to yourself and

6:05

she said it as was a long

6:07

story will after we

6:10

started liking the dress we

6:13

noticed is that he

6:15

was becoming more friendly and see

6:18

relax a lot more with us and told

6:20

us that she was married to a very

6:22

violent main

6:24

the rain said she asked lynn why

6:26

don't you leave him

6:27

why not just get away to be free

6:29

of the violence in the pain she

6:32

said well it's a difficult

6:34

elwood no way to go off got two children

6:37

after love the house

6:39

the i lived at the time at narrow bank not

6:41

too far from bayview and she offered

6:43

to drive lynn home that night

6:45

linden drive and she gratefully

6:47

accepted she was the slightest

6:49

little thing pretty short blond

6:52

hair she , analysed

6:54

go you know and

6:56

when and see saw this

6:59

bruises on her the all

7:02

shocking the race

7:05

like someone acting job n

7:08

n c never told us

7:10

that he had done as bad

7:13

as she said it's a long story

7:16

and he ended up telling his says the

7:18

enough to used to beltre around

7:22

the rain recalls that lynn made for visits to

7:24

the bridal sell on she did not see lynn

7:26

again after she took address in

7:28

your experience in owners

7:31

have a shot won't have to women with

7:33

see i'm getting ready to

7:35

track down

7:38

was bruising appears

7:40

to be from domestic violence very

7:42

rare

7:44

now was rare because

7:47

i had mostly young girl a

7:49

bridal sell on

7:51

and i didn't as a lot

7:53

of married women

7:55

it was a disturbing answer

7:57

ryan was suggesting that the soon to be weird

8:00

would not be assaulted that domestic

8:02

violence occurred when they were married you

8:04

recall how you felt when you saw the bruising

8:07

he'll live

8:08

shop because it was messy lisa

8:11

how horrible bluey dot

8:14

blue purple

8:15

bruce

8:17

on the always always upset

8:19

because she was the slight

8:21

person he was

8:24

quite small

8:25

he was a big football was

8:27

sunny clear

8:29

, went back and listen to that interview the spawning

8:32

with the rhine and there was some other really

8:34

interesting pieces that came out

8:36

of it it a few further observations

8:39

of the rhine that we're not in that episode

8:41

called bruised once

8:44

driver

8:45

well because it was light

8:48

in the afternoon ben

8:50

harper five miles for have been waiting

8:52

forests and ways to drop

8:54

jowell said bell gala and

8:57

, gave her a lift time because

9:00

i lived in there have been at the time

9:02

how sure i used as a woman is so

9:05

strange story on positive

9:07

absolutely are reiki noise the

9:09

strider why and as soon as the

9:12

show's finished shot rang guy me lane

9:14

he took my full stride a while and

9:17

i said to him i know

9:19

that girl

9:21

and i told him either decide

9:23

what are

9:24

the and and he came the and say me the

9:26

next day at the t y

9:28

playstation but die me

9:30

in lane said to me one

9:33

states he's gonna get a

9:35

shock when i was danny some

9:37

parts and know connie's to they

9:39

say die me in lane was

9:41

convinced so he

9:44

had done something bad

9:45

where are you worried now

9:48

having spoken to answer these are you doing the right

9:50

thing

9:51

i think i'm doing the right thing

9:54

a small have told you the

9:57

hell with the case

9:59

where i saw those bruises or

10:01

so i always shocked

10:05

i i'd probably judith

10:08

toward a bad it bit more before

10:10

i rang guy me in loan i'm

10:13

glad that ideas it

10:16

does not become quite friendly with him

10:19

he's a terrific di di

10:21

di in lane said to me at

10:23

the time that lineage went

10:26

missing the detectives

10:28

working on the case footsteps the

10:31

city said they

10:34

they me if he sings yeah

10:37

i'm getting old but

10:39

off got a heart problem now that's

10:42

why i'm here but as

10:44

you can say is say is love pasta

10:47

same

10:47

it's fantastic place she

10:51

, me during the interview in december

10:53

twenty seventeen that she had two

10:55

daughters and both lived on the northern

10:57

beaches one was one

11:00

and the other one was for a major

11:02

airline she struck rebecca and i

11:04

as an independent strong willed

11:06

woman who was deeply concerned

11:09

when she met lean because of the bruises

11:11

that she says she witnessed she wanted

11:13

to try to help and that's why she contacted

11:15

damien lane in the first place and

11:18

she was adamant that she wanted to

11:20

be heard but that was not to be

11:22

sadly in june of this

11:24

year the rain what's in passed

11:27

away she was eighty five

11:30

we we operate a quick then from least net

11:32

derrick johnson steroids going to

11:34

raid his own question now we're

11:37

he convicted any possibility

11:39

crystal son could get his sentence reduced

11:42

at some point some point for

11:44

telling authorities well in is buried

11:47

was also wondering if the australian

11:49

legal system requires a convicted murderer

11:51

have to admit guilt or reveal

11:53

the location of the victims remains

11:56

in order to get parole sinai

11:59

derek i work with him in hong kong

12:01

more than twenty years ago and he is covered

12:04

numerous trials as a journalist

12:06

both in print and in television

12:08

he's still working as a journalist in england

12:11

and i now he's followed this case very

12:13

closely ride from the start five

12:16

years ago in queensland

12:18

the state government introduced a new

12:20

law a compulsory nobody

12:23

no parole law which means that anyone

12:25

convicted of murder where the

12:28

body is missing will stay

12:30

missing prison until they tell authorities

12:32

were the body is in some

12:34

circumstances the accused

12:36

may have been drug or alcohol affected

12:39

and unable to remember what

12:41

happened to the body and it is the case

12:44

that in circumstances where that can

12:46

be show one and be proven

12:48

that they have no way of remembering

12:50

now where the body is it

12:53

will still be the possibility

12:55

of release but , parole

12:57

board has to be satisfied that the

12:59

accused has done his

13:01

or her best to leave authorities to the

13:03

body this is recognition

13:06

of the very important

13:08

closer the loved ones

13:10

good when they are able to properly

13:13

bury or crew mice the

13:15

victim the only legal framework

13:18

that will apply to chris in this

13:20

case in the event and we are

13:22

really speculating hear

13:24

that piece convicted of murder

13:27

is , framework of new south

13:29

wales that's where he

13:31

is being tried tried

13:34

where the judge seats were chris

13:36

will hear the judges verdict

13:38

the only western australia has also

13:40

introduced similar laws and parole

13:43

is one of those areas of policy

13:45

which is really difficult for governments

13:48

and said the legal system in terms

13:50

of public perception one thing

13:52

that happened in new south wales was that

13:55

the parole board was given the option

13:58

to deny prisoners parole the

14:00

case of murder or manslaughter estate

14:02

sale to reveal where the remains

14:04

is the victim are so daddy's nobody

14:07

no parole the difference in new south

14:09

wales is that is the requirement

14:11

or an obligation of the parole board

14:14

that is an option for them

14:17

really i'm enjoying recording session

14:19

we've recorded these chats for ipod touch

14:21

in all manner of different ways sometimes we're

14:23

in a the studio to get out sometimes as

14:25

now chatting on a google made and

14:28

so i'm looking you in what could

14:30

be a google but i he's actually

14:32

your car

14:33

the i'm back in the front seat of

14:35

my car clay pot few hundred meters

14:38

from home and

14:40

, reason is there are very hardworking

14:43

people at my house lobbying trees

14:45

and building new steps steps

14:47

there's been some landscaping going on sadly

14:50

i haven't had time to do any of this myself

14:53

and the noise of the chainsaws and the drills

14:55

and the hammering was such that i thought

14:57

you would be yelling at me if yelling tried

15:00

to recorded from the dining table

15:02

and have taken off and i'm in the frenzy

15:05

one of the great features of podcasting

15:07

clear is that if you have a microphone

15:10

and a laptop it doesn't really matter

15:12

i could be at the general store

15:14

near where i live at been an airport terminal

15:17

i could be in a really

15:19

flash idio where will they will

15:21

be next catch up but this john or it does

15:23

really a bit portability and that's

15:25

one of the reasons why it's so satisfying

15:28

have you to the air conditioning running although that

15:31

would also in paid the audio headley

15:33

know either hating in their i

15:35

there's no way icon and i'm overheating

15:38

gary johnson also made some

15:41

very interesting observations and

15:43

i asked derek to read those

15:45

in his own voice my

15:48

early thoughts with chris dawson's only

15:50

hope was to get the trial cost though

15:53

it is circumstantial evidence being presented

15:56

he made a couple of mistakes the clearly

15:58

sony cold to the

15:59

swimming baths from lane among

16:02

the biggest because he's been caught creating

16:04

a narrative for her disappearance

16:07

the rings entirely false to any say

16:09

a minded person this business

16:11

of her running off with some kind

16:13

of guru com door to door

16:15

your bra salesman that doesn't

16:17

help him either because again it's

16:19

so clearly out of character

16:21

dawson had know how with the jury

16:24

and not just because if the publicity

16:27

you're a fool of moms and daughters

16:29

and kills it men and women who'd

16:32

look at things disappearance followed

16:34

by the babysitter moving in and

16:36

sit the guilty bus off with a sledgehammer

16:39

before they even graph to coffee i

16:41

thought he was guilty the moment i

16:43

heard he told his daughter a woman

16:45

on the antiques roadshow could have been

16:48

a mother the absence of dealt

16:50

is was has made this story so

16:52

thrilling or thing the difference

16:55

go muddled trying to make

16:57

sense of poor evidence

16:59

thing consistency is and in logical

17:02

arguments

17:03

accept things a defendant's legal

17:05

rights i thought it was a big

17:08

mistake or crystals and not

17:10

to take the stand

17:12

the spent decades claiming you can't

17:14

get a fair hearing and then

17:16

admittedly as false of a murder trial

17:18

your foot one and ,

17:21

jaw just presumption of innocence

17:23

and entirely blank page yet

17:26

to effectively treated the jobs

17:28

as if he were some kind of tabloid

17:30

muckraker who couldn't be trusted

17:33

to be impartial in this

17:35

case the refusal to answer questions

17:37

makes it sounds like he knows looks

17:40

else

17:41

and should have testified

17:44

seat and honest truth

17:46

after all

17:47

hello we had a fascinating

17:49

note from a lady named melanie l

17:51

ron right that the podcast

17:54

is taking her back to that time she

17:56

was ten years old in nineteen eighty two

17:58

and a parents lived on the the beaches

18:00

in the seventies where she was born

18:04

he from melanie night these abilities

18:06

words but not have or

18:07

my mother in leicester

18:10

alcoholic husband in nineteen sixty five

18:12

leaving a marriage wasn't economically possible a

18:14

nice day some i so many had to have some way to

18:17

go

18:18

the whitlam government created single mothers pension

18:20

and that

18:21

my mom was able to live a line and make time

18:23

for all of her grandkids t

18:25

that line with a nurse and that no one has

18:27

been able to that's for her working anyway

18:30

and the years after makes it pretty clear to me

18:33

importantly that testimony from poll cooper

18:35

with utter bullshit but

18:38

it's because of how they pulled a that have no way but

18:40

he still worry with incongruous at the time

18:43

he could be met her in a hotel which i don't believe

18:45

for seconds snow woman of lings

18:47

class and background would enter a pub

18:49

a line in those days it just wasn't done

18:52

you'd have to be dying of thirst with no the

18:55

option to do it

18:56

the baby came upon it sitting in a pub is a fabrication

18:59

in my opinion my

19:01

mother had managed to act as a waitress in by

19:03

the hotels including on the northern beaches

19:06

and she would never have gone into a pub

19:08

with that a companion that may not

19:10

the front bar a woman line might

19:12

even have been asked to leave

19:14

the demands domain and women were welcome

19:17

thought it was another very insightful

19:20

perceptive node player and

19:22

i wouldn't disagree with any of

19:24

yeah what melanie going to is this sub

19:27

say mean that run throughout

19:29

the teaches it and now the teachers trial

19:32

it's just how different australia was

19:35

forty years ago and really

19:38

so different for women not only

19:40

were women not financially

19:43

empowered but that also and

19:45

day was surrounded by secrets

19:48

and shame about what was going on

19:50

in their own homes i think this is always

19:52

one of the big challenges in court

19:54

cases it's looking back at poem

19:57

that we're talking about and trying to understand

19:59

paypal

19:59

the actions in that context

20:02

it's very easy to judge and

20:05

that's and very common thing common thing

20:07

of family violence or all

20:10

bad relationships why didn't she

20:12

lays while with that being allowed

20:14

to happen i think you have

20:16

to look back and understand

20:18

what else was going on at the time we

20:21

also got some interesting questions about

20:23

waste disposal one

20:25

of the listeners a right to us is suzanne

20:28

pro me suzanne crime the

20:30

as agree to read her question he

20:32

sees

20:33

christoph and this

20:35

ad hoc work as a garbage collector on the northern

20:38

bases in the late seventies and early eighties

20:41

he did

20:41

everyone a feeling and regular employees

20:43

roman holiday for on well

20:46

a mountain the trial if not why

20:48

not he has access to them so garbage

20:50

shots in the area the gods

20:52

the one and

20:55

, note from a listener we're going

20:57

to refer to as jake's you

20:59

take he wants to be anonymous so

21:01

we've used a voice actor to raid

21:03

j keys words my

21:06

question is

21:07

how much to the police

21:08

the locus of connections with the waste into three

21:11

the time the skate with a he was able to

21:13

dispose of lean body using the knowledge

21:16

he gained from his time wishing net it's

21:19

something i would expect most place to do with part

21:21

of a process with missing people but

21:23

i guess these

21:24

could have been missed considering that it wasn't

21:26

handled very well in the first instance

21:28

these questions pick

21:31

up on the fact that chris dawson

21:33

and his twin brother paul dawson used

21:35

to run behind a garbage truck as

21:37

a second job i was contacted

21:40

by a former police officer who

21:43

had a similar part time job and

21:45

he did tell me that

21:46

in his view it would have been

21:49

very easy knowing the deaf i wear

21:51

those garbage trucks went from to

21:54

have access to it on a weekend

21:56

if you had experience of having worked

21:58

there the cap on the list the questions

22:01

potentially dispose of a

22:03

body which would never be seen

22:05

again be clear i have to add the rye

22:07

that this is all highly speculative

22:10

crystals and has always

22:12

insisted that he is innocent

22:15

of any wrongdoing and no doubt

22:17

if pulling david were able to speak on his

22:19

behalf right now she would be appalled

22:21

at such a proposition that to the questions

22:24

of the listeners reasons for example

22:26

for calling witnesses or not calling witnesses

22:29

are really a matter for the prosecution

22:31

and the police and the not sharing those reasons

22:34

with us

22:35

li et al he says no the verdict

22:37

is to be handed down on august thirty

22:40

that's tuesday sally the ceiling

22:42

the you walk into court

22:44

i've made no secret of the fact that i

22:46

believe crystals and has got away with

22:48

murder for a long time but

22:50

is just to see and harrison finds

22:53

that he cannot be satisfied beyond

22:56

reasonable doubt and of course there

22:58

is the absence of a body that

23:01

, and is guilty that doesn't

23:03

spell disaster disaster

23:05

i hope that many of us who have been

23:07

involved in this remarkable

23:10

case will take some

23:12

comfort from whatever the verdict

23:14

is i think about the

23:17

millions of people who

23:19

have heard lynn story who

23:22

have understood what they

23:24

believe has happened and

23:26

, may be much better prepared in

23:29

their own relationships will possibly

23:31

better able to identify in

23:33

their friends and other love ones relationships

23:36

issues that could become dangerous if they

23:38

escalate and there is significant

23:41

upside in the education

23:43

that education think many people have had as

23:46

had result of limb dawson

23:48

disappearing and everything we have discussed

23:50

about it since

23:53

i think of become really emotionally attached

23:55

to limit story

23:57

so many women

23:58

would be relayed

23:59

and i just think that some

24:02

the story not align around the world

24:04

it's been so much pain i

24:07

, a very powerful since from

24:09

willie highland of this how

24:12

important this case and

24:15

all of our words the

24:17

evidence that she's been listening to have

24:19

been to her and some of her

24:21

friends

24:23

will be highlands interview with a colleague

24:25

met condon is very moving headley

24:28

later in this episode will he will explain

24:30

to met condon

24:31

why she's taking days of work

24:34

and spending time and money on travels

24:36

in the countryside

24:37

that report in sydney he

24:40

wants to hear

24:41

it it relating secret dawson

24:43

and is alleged victim lean

24:45

the people with him willie as

24:47

no direct connection whatsoever

24:50

the reminder of the personal impact saline

24:53

families and filene's brother

24:55

a great seems and his wife marilyn you

24:58

know described it in light

24:59

twenty i came shortly before

25:01

crystal some was charged either leans

25:03

murder

25:05

now what about cars cause

25:08

then , wow

25:10

we do now we showed him

25:13

this you just be humbled and

25:15

in arena in or i why has

25:17

this is a small on a size

25:19

i i can it to the mean on a roller

25:21

coaster blindfolded and

25:23

he just couldn't and you think you're getting to

25:25

the top and once he gets the bottom additional

25:28

that seat and then you start climbing again

25:30

said that's what it's going for

25:33

the way but as difficult as it

25:35

stain it dot emotionally and

25:38

physically sometimes i think

25:40

we're doing more than willing

25:42

to to go sure it because

25:45

is , still is the emotions and so on that lean

25:48

story is solidly been told

25:51

and not swept under the carpet and

25:53

all these people that wouldn't come on board before

25:55

board doing it now they've been pushed into

25:58

been pushed way shamed into it which

26:00

is atrocious had today but

26:03

we , a great source without that

26:05

we wouldn't be where we are now and and

26:08

are more hope for the media to media hurtful

26:10

to me is a game where it's been an

26:13

honor to be able to be

26:15

involved in to be given to vehicle to

26:18

give you the voice and to sit

26:20

history to be told and

26:24

the lady the twists and turns had

26:26

been really difficult

26:29

to deal with a waitress wouldn't

26:31

have believed it down a

26:33

it's a nominal the number of people

26:35

that it has affected you fitness

26:37

and if given the chance again

26:40

we , have no chance before that because

26:43

so you know call the people we are i guess

26:45

we could have been fought now

26:47

let's he from david murray and matthew

26:50

content

26:51

we know a lot of people are interested

26:54

in chris his twin brother paul

26:56

dawson there was a stream

26:58

of questions about cool on

27:00

whether he potentially could have been involved

27:02

in this

27:04

i'm wondering if chris dawson is

27:06

he guilty

27:07

kudos to be likely to be under suspicion

27:10

or have to face questing about his possible

27:12

involvement in covering up the crime

27:14

thanks i am the

27:17

fact is that during that brawl in

27:19

outside the trial no evidence has

27:21

been laid against paul dawson

27:24

as being involved being any way

27:26

i'm fascinated by twins

27:29

because i actually am it's when i

27:31

have a twin sister but we learn

27:33

through that very long

27:35

trial about the closeness

27:38

of these identical twins at

27:40

every period of their loss from when though young

27:43

children sharing their own

27:45

made up language right through

27:47

the school years into

27:49

the period of the newtown jets rugby

27:52

league club with other place and

27:54

they couldn't distinguish they to distinguish that they could almost

27:56

read each other's movements

27:58

right through into their it out good

28:00

and beyond this unbelievable

28:04

closeness that these two men chris

28:06

and co shared and yet

28:08

what was so

28:10

basically obvious especially

28:13

the ten week trial was that

28:16

there was no poll they

28:18

were in fact separated and

28:20

that some distance we did see

28:23

paul hold as a witness

28:25

on the videolink screens in that

28:27

court

28:28

that was this the longest period

28:30

of their

28:32

lives where they have indeed been

28:34

separated and if so

28:36

why why wasn't poll there

28:39

is no implication here of anything

28:42

dastardly or devious that

28:44

you have to wonder because it was an essential part

28:46

of the trial of snapshot of these

28:48

inseparable men was

28:51

it that poll couldn't stand

28:53

to face head on in

28:55

person this ,

28:57

period in his twin brothers laws

29:00

wasn't that we can only speculate

29:02

was it that i just didn't think it was

29:05

a good look to be it's

29:07

in the court together and hollering this

29:09

really close relationship i've got the

29:11

right we just don't know the answer to that as

29:13

it stand out he's one of the questions

29:16

that we were asked about paul dawson

29:20

property of christians twin been checked

29:22

for signs of

29:22

it remains murray hide

29:25

we do know that going

29:27

back some twenty years they were efforts

29:30

to investigate post block and way that

29:32

means remains could have been buried

29:34

them he lived very twice on the same

29:36

straight to his brother

29:38

chris in the winter driving

29:41

by do one of the former

29:43

owners of that property was a man named

29:45

joe to me no end though

29:47

and his wife remember police getting

29:49

in touch with them back in two thousand and three

29:51

two thousand and four i'm into

29:53

pose all place and then walking

29:56

all over the property that not

29:58

digging it up and they have

30:00

been investigations about whether there are potentially

30:02

areas that means your minds could be joys

30:05

opinion was that they were

30:07

aires on that block where it

30:09

reminds could have been disposed of

30:11

very discreetly privately without anyone

30:14

saying that essentially

30:16

it's been ruled out by police

30:18

as a like a some for lens

30:20

body during their investigations

30:22

it unequivocal that told asked has never been

30:24

charged with anything in relation to this

30:27

pace know and we know that poor

30:29

dawson was away on holiday

30:32

with his wife and family at the time

30:34

that plane went missing and

30:37

that was a location north of sydney

30:40

we know that chris drive north of

30:42

sydney up t southwest rocks to

30:44

pick up guy see and bring

30:47

her back the read family home

30:49

as he said matt they were exceptionally

30:51

place and is chris was going

30:53

to turn to anyone who thinks that

30:56

his twin brother poor would be the person

30:58

that he would turn to but it a difference

31:00

between knowing that they are

31:03

very close and having any evidence

31:05

of pull being involved in a

31:07

crime the questions

31:10

natural ones third to come from listeners

31:12

given the almost indivisibility

31:15

chris and told austin my

31:19

question is can

31:20

it will be found guilty of murder with circumstantial

31:23

evidence or unless you land a link

31:26

i'm often

31:28

asked about that issue of circumstantial

31:31

evidence and people make the comment well at all

31:34

the circumstantial isn't it and well yes

31:36

because in criminal cases

31:38

often you don't have a direct witness someone

31:41

standing near over a body with the murder

31:43

weapon or confessing on the

31:45

spot those kind of thing so you

31:47

have to pull together all the other evidence

31:50

that indicates that a particular person

31:52

is guilty of that crime and that is

31:54

actually what a circumstantial case is

31:57

all about pulling through all night different

31:59

threads

31:59

republic checks for instance all

32:02

the circumstances around her device

32:04

and poor children along with the

32:06

mighty than all of those things and saying

32:09

the amounts to lean

32:11

being dead and nine that to her husband

32:13

chris murdering heads on

32:15

the prosecution's case

32:17

i think there's a propensity to downplay

32:21

circumstantial evidence says she said

32:23

to david comes down to not

32:25

just providing a logical narrative

32:28

but presenting the argument well who

32:30

else could possibly have perpetrated

32:32

describe the flipside

32:34

to the narrative

32:36

it is narrowing

32:37

the ability to try and imagine who

32:40

else might have been involved in that other than

32:42

this particular person the questions

32:44

a teacher child has been presented with from listeners

32:47

have been extraordinarily

32:49

depth for insightful one

32:51

that stood out in terms of beyond reasonable doubt

32:53

was from jared read he

32:56

said he would love to hear other us are

32:58

about to talk about the legal notion

33:00

of beyond reasonable doubt he has

33:02

written i've enjoyed weighing the evidence

33:04

as your podcast a summer us did i

33:07

think it's likely that the defendant is guilty

33:09

but i'm not sure if i'm satisfied

33:11

beyond a reasonable doubt i

33:14

, help but wonder what the trial judge make

33:16

civil i think that's a very very

33:19

whitey observation in

33:21

terms of someone who has listened

33:23

to the teachers trial as fair

33:26

as we have tried to be proved both

33:28

parties and still

33:30

after everything after regular member of the public

33:32

is weighing up still

33:34

a decision and the big question

33:37

at the heart of it all is i'm not

33:39

sure whether i'm satisfied beyond

33:41

a reasonable doubt so this is it almost theoretical

33:44

jurors deliberation at the end

33:46

of a trial is met trying to way out what

33:49

that actually means and he's another

33:51

one from a listen to [unk] del a hint

33:53

he could you please

33:55

explain the difference between reasonable doubt

33:58

and any doubt in regards to justice

34:00

a in harrison will consider and frame his

34:02

findings and ultimate verdict

34:06

i'm in the phrase beyond reasonable doubt

34:08

have thought about thought about times i still

34:10

find it a very slippery term in

34:13

terms of trying to conceptualize

34:15

it and using it as a ground

34:17

based to make an informed decision on

34:19

not a lawyer or i've never been

34:21

in a jury but it still have

34:23

phrased as i think a lot of people grasp with

34:26

in some some it's precise definition

34:28

that question it's on a really good point

34:30

beyond reasonable doubt is not beyond

34:33

any doubt this beyond what's

34:35

reasonable either we

34:37

would ask a criminal defense lawyer karen s

34:40

than a what she thought about that particular

34:42

time

34:43

it a phrase that

34:46

phrase jewelry often asks

34:48

for further direction that

34:50

exactly what those words mean they

34:52

would be told by the judge that

34:54

the words ah ordinary

34:56

english word and it

34:59

i mean exactly what they say

35:01

and hundred good way to think about the notion

35:04

of beyond reasonable doubt to

35:06

compare it to a different standard

35:08

of proof

35:09

used in different

35:10

the proceedings

35:12

the in vivo proceedings the

35:14

standard of proof is the

35:17

balance of probabilities

35:19

the more likely are not that something good

35:21

or did not happen that people can

35:23

that of price is a lower

35:25

standard of proof than in

35:27

criminal proceeding you

35:30

could hold a suspicion that something

35:32

to eat or didn't happen that

35:35

not reached the standards of

35:37

beyond reasonable doubt you

35:39

create havoc raise suspicion that something

35:41

did or did not happen you may

35:43

still not rights that criminals and it

35:46

the decision maker would need to decide whether

35:49

will not the any doubt that they have

35:51

it's reasonable

35:53

having a dot to the evidence and

35:55

having a dad to the submissions made

35:58

by each party

36:00

the other thing that important tonight about the

36:02

notion of beyond reasonable doubt

36:05

if it in order to be satisfied if something

36:07

beyond reasonable doubt

36:10

the decision maker would have to

36:13

the reject all reasonable

36:15

hypothesis

36:17

oh anyway

36:18

the possibility that is inconsistent

36:20

with the crankcase what

36:22

that means if if

36:24

the judge

36:26

except that crystal

36:29

since defense might be true

36:32

then he couldn't be satisfied

36:34

that the crown

36:36

has prevented case beyond reasonable doubt

36:39

so we had several questions

36:41

come into the teachers trial about

36:44

the credibility of j c

36:47

the baby sitter and one question

36:50

from jesse stanley was this what

36:52

did jaycees explanation for being okay

36:55

about only coming plane about her suspicions

36:58

about chris once the marriage

37:00

was over doesn't reduce

37:02

her credibility in this story that

37:04

she willingly went along with him had

37:07

him had and married him yet the whole

37:09

time suspected he was an alleged murderer

37:12

i'm not sure about you method people are always asking

37:14

me about jc i'm what was she like as

37:16

a witness the bladder i'm preconceived

37:19

notions them already kind of formed a view of

37:21

they have as have read about who will listen to

37:23

things about her but my impression

37:25

was looking at her on

37:28

the stand for nice four days that she was that the trial

37:30

that she was clearly to me a very damage

37:33

person see had been severely

37:35

affected by the events

37:37

that began very early in their lives

37:39

in a school years and

37:41

that has affected her brought up now and to

37:44

have fifty to

37:46

her credibility and watching you

37:48

and what she didn't know there's

37:51

one thing i remember to prosecutor saying which was

37:54

her account is really consistent

37:56

with a person who is

37:58

very young in it pains when

38:00

these events started he then

38:03

went into a very controlling relationship

38:06

and then that person slowly emerging

38:08

from that controlling relationship

38:11

going into adult years and

38:13

realizing the things that see had

38:16

been through were not necessarily

38:18

what all women who

38:20

people went through in a relationship

38:23

the that was the explanation

38:26

for why she was

38:28

perhaps coming out and telling the police

38:31

about these things after her

38:33

separation from chris in nineteen ninety

38:36

the critical question to that goes

38:38

yet again to the heart of the passage

38:40

of time the situation

38:43

is taken to reach a court of law in that

38:45

we see j c very young engage

38:48

with the accused

38:50

see marries him and as a child

38:52

and the even by the standards

38:54

of the early to mid eighties she still

38:56

quite young to be a mother and

38:59

, courtesy of the passage of time

39:01

we see as you intimated dave when

39:04

she finally manages to leave christos

39:06

and see almost slips through

39:08

of person where she leaves

39:11

one last behind and steps

39:13

into a new uncertain lot

39:17

and then when you add decades of experience

39:19

leading up to

39:21

two thousand and twenty two

39:22

see now has

39:24

the added knowledge and experience

39:27

to look back on her younger

39:29

self she seemed to me very

39:31

are not defensive but was ready for a

39:33

fight if you like as a witness she

39:35

had seen up she was ready

39:38

for all those questions that

39:40

were fired at her she was stop

39:42

for it if you like and she also

39:44

mentioned on many many occasions

39:47

the word grooming which indicated

39:49

see had used to maturity

39:52

now the look rak

39:54

through the telescope and see his so

39:57

in that situation almost as a separate

39:59

person the very unique situation

40:02

and experience that this woman has

40:04

been true

40:05

in her life that not many of us have

40:07

experience that see almost

40:10

as a life believed

40:11

in half whereby

40:13

the mature version is now

40:16

making commentary on the younger

40:18

version though a number of questions

40:21

with a common semitic also came in

40:23

and this was in relation to the to corral

40:25

new inquests into the disappearance

40:27

of lynn dawson does

40:30

the previous inquest have any waiting

40:32

on how the judge will deliver his decision

40:35

the me from botany or

40:38

it's completely independent the separate

40:40

proceeding say really shouldn't have any

40:42

bearing at all on the marriage

40:45

or what or what has said the judge

40:47

has to bring fresh eyes what look at only the evidence

40:49

that he's allowed to look at there are

40:51

in a mafia would take a lot more into account then

40:53

i judged him say really he's gotta

40:55

put that aside completely he can't

40:58

take that into account but

41:00

you do wonder at some level where

41:03

that is on the judges mimo t

41:05

very experience coroner's have looked at this

41:07

and i haven't is that right dismissed it knives

41:09

sent this with a recommendation that crystals

41:12

and be charged with these mass murder the

41:14

dog that plan the judges mine at the some level

41:17

where we're all human as much as scientists

41:19

separate themselves from the rest of society

41:22

i think technically he really shouldn't

41:24

be paying much attention to our current has

41:26

said simplistically everything

41:29

that happened within that long rectangular

41:31

supreme court nineteen sydney everything

41:34

that happened within those four walls that

41:36

is it's own entity in

41:38

relation to the specific murder

41:40

trial awesome versus

41:43

the crown and nothing

41:45

an inch outside that door really

41:47

should be considered in any way shape or

41:49

form and jani have to look at the judges

41:51

comments throughout the trial to see that

41:53

that's the case he had a number

41:56

of times that he'd quarantined himself from

41:58

the media say wasn't reading associated

42:00

media hadn't been reading it leading up

42:02

to the trough any very very

42:05

specifically say i just wanna make this

42:07

clear because it seems to keep coming up i

42:09

have not read the findings of supreme

42:11

court justice elizabeth follows and in

42:14

the sky application i have not read the

42:16

new south wales court of criminal appeals

42:19

the findings about the sky application

42:21

after christos an appeal the original

42:23

one way is not that that's what happened

42:26

at i've not read the findings from

42:28

the high court on this case have

42:30

from your experience dive in terms of

42:33

whether you can put must size on

42:35

at what would be a normal or

42:37

nominal explanation from a judge for

42:39

a decision does it run to twenty

42:41

pages as the hundred and twenty what

42:43

are we looking at in terms of volume really

42:46

it's anyone's guess the early by the

42:48

time it's already taken this isn't going to be

42:50

very brief little be detail it'll

42:53

be a lot to analyze from the judgment when

42:55

we get our hands and

42:57

we sent some of your questions to defense

42:59

lawyer karen espanola now

43:01

we'll hear leases asking their

43:03

own gin and karen a spinner

43:06

responding how

43:08

was just was harrison appointed to this

43:10

time

43:11

the journey tall i can imagine

43:14

that he volunteered as the burden of making

43:16

such a judgment and giving these had reasons

43:18

for this would be immeasurably hotspur he

43:21

habit is helping him to reach a verdict

43:24

and you

43:25

i'm jennifer jones

43:27

without working in the supreme court it's

43:30

really difficult to know exactly what happens on

43:32

the same

43:33

that

43:35

something that would have been taken into account

43:37

when deciding which judge would

43:39

preside over his trial the

43:42

availability of the judge

43:44

hey

43:45

here a trial that

43:46

it for a particular number of lake it's

43:50

likely that the fact that justice harrison

43:52

says a lot of criminal experience

43:55

would have sex is into the decision

43:57

making a wound

43:58

the judge

43:59

here is true

44:01

ultimately i suspect that it was a decision

44:03

for the chief justice to think about authors

44:06

different things

44:07

when deciding which judge would be appointed

44:09

this trial

44:11

they're definitely not anybody else helping the

44:13

judge rates to third it so

44:15

the decision if he's and he's a line

44:18

the reason for that is it a success with

44:20

this third all of the evidence

44:22

the person who heard all of the submissions

44:25

from the party

44:27

and if he was too

44:30

how to get help from somebody say hasn't

44:32

listened to all that evidence they

44:34

would be a fundamental unfairness

44:37

today it he's and a crown

44:40

a judge in a judge line trials the

44:42

person who's best placed and tasked

44:45

to

44:46

the do all of the evidence the computer

44:48

monitor submissions

44:50

and reach kids so her verdict

44:53

i'm wondering if crystals

44:55

and could be offered a deal to lower

44:58

the charge or even immunity to find

45:00

lynn's body in order to give her family

45:02

face and like her to rest here

45:04

and gibson

45:06

i think it's probably fair to say

45:08

that the horse has bolted on that

45:10

one so

45:11

look was it's possible that and offer may

45:13

have been made by the prosecution

45:16

christos and to and

45:18

translate guilty to a lower charge

45:21

mine and yeah kristoff this case has always

45:24

been that he is not guilty of killing

45:26

his former wife

45:28

every not the case that any offer at

45:30

my his they made with accepted while

45:33

it's not impossible that such not the could

45:35

have been made

45:37

it doesn't appear to have a third in this

45:39

trial is ,

45:41

possible in australia for the presiding

45:43

judge to reduce the charged played against

45:45

the accused that is to say

45:48

if it is not premeditated murder

45:50

the judge could convict them convict ban

45:52

slaughter when deliver

45:53

in their verdict kill buchanan

45:57

it's a belated christian in in

45:59

case

45:59

the manslaughter is a possible

46:02

alternative man for

46:04

say is an unintentional

46:07

the doing

46:08

murder is a queuing that

46:11

is carried out at

46:13

least the attention to kill the

46:15

deceased all an intention

46:17

to in

46:18

it

46:19

grievous bodily harm so really serious

46:21

harm on the deceased or

46:24

and acts that can message with

46:26

reckless indifference to human life they

46:29

sometimes they will be acquired turn on

46:31

the fact that the case

46:33

about whether or not

46:36

the accused had in men's

46:38

wire or the mental elements

46:41

to the guilty of murder

46:42

for example somebody

46:44

is acting in self defense

46:46

it might be that if the jury accept

46:49

they're acting in self defense

46:51

they are guilty of manslaughter not

46:54

murder

46:55

that was manslaughter ease

46:57

what could a statutory alternatives to

47:00

murder it has to the opened

47:02

on the fact that the case

47:04

my understanding and it's all is that

47:07

a parties agreed that manslaughter was

47:09

not a reasonable alternative vote

47:11

it

47:11

people

47:33

headley and i are going to talk about something

47:36

that was really thought provoking for us about

47:39

away language frames

47:41

are under

47:42

handling of really complex

47:44

issues like these

47:45

really we've been getting a lot of feedback from

47:47

rate is on all sorts of different platforms

47:49

lead a city editor com

47:51

connor tories and comments interviews

47:53

on our podcast page

47:55

you repeat a really interesting let our from

47:58

a lady we can pull the adam as the

48:00

made some really good points visa

48:02

and as words in an email she wrote a

48:04

little miss the message homeless or

48:06

heard the same out finds you well i'm

48:08

a big fan of your investigative journalism

48:10

work on the teacher's pet and i'm currently

48:13

listening to the teachers trial

48:14

i appreciate that the podcast

48:16

the eating j say instead of his

48:18

full name i personally believe

48:20

increase two sons right to say trial the

48:23

podcast the report as mention that j

48:25

c consistently corrected the word

48:27

relationship been using course

48:29

substituting it we the grooming

48:32

it's completely accurate i would like

48:34

to assert that the australian and it's journalists

48:37

should not be using the phrase teenage

48:39

laval to research i see

48:41

language matters and i encourage those involved

48:44

to think carefully about the way in which

48:46

jc is described

48:48

it was a really thoughtful node

48:50

and it reflected themes

48:53

an idea is that we've been receiving from

48:55

our listeners

48:57

what did you write better

48:59

irina your points are absolutely ballot

49:02

she was young and very vulnerable he was

49:04

experienced manipulative and in

49:06

a position of power witnesses

49:08

in his murder trial to talk about the grooming

49:10

and exploitative behavior are

49:12

of course being heard in the podcast

49:15

is there evidence and we are running it

49:18

my colleagues and i however as

49:21

stopping short of stating these things

49:23

as if they are al facts because

49:25

it's not our role to make these declarations

49:27

now or to presume these things

49:30

as facts until i been heard

49:32

and determined by the judge that's

49:34

a longstanding convention of court reporting

49:36

i appreciate your frustrations play

49:39

with needed to edit thoughts are that

49:41

has no to last and parts of my replies

49:43

but i understand had point see saying

49:46

why given the relationship

49:49

and there's that word that does cause

49:51

some people trouble

49:52

why didn't that

49:54

are we not referring to j

49:56

c

49:57

there's a groom person

49:59

the victim let's think of a

50:02

court case that involves a murder

50:04

completely unrelated to crystals and we

50:07

, whole for example

50:09

the victim of jared

50:12

biden cli who was a

50:14

breeze been man who murdered

50:16

his wife we wouldn't call

50:18

his wife during the cold case

50:21

the victim of her

50:23

husband and in the same way

50:25

i feel that we can o

50:28

j c during the cold case

50:30

the victim olds the man with

50:32

whom she was involved both

50:35

it as a student and babysitter

50:37

to a family and them as

50:40

his second wife and that's what

50:42

i made when i was talking about conventions

50:44

of court reporting and bounds journalism

50:47

it actually

50:48

read for reporters who try

50:50

to inject commentary or opinion

50:52

into court reporting that day

50:54

you get in trouble and call it that he's actually contempt

50:57

of court you're not allowed if you're reporting court

50:59

to do anything other than a fair and accurate

51:01

report of the proceedings they have an incentive

51:03

you

51:04

that's interesting

51:05

haley both you and i have spent many

51:07

years reporting on crime on crime against

51:09

women on sexual crime crime against

51:12

children and language

51:14

and seminal aziz really hard listening

51:16

that

51:17

i might is a teenage lover in that

51:19

only of

51:19

that i know i use the word relationship to describe

51:22

the interactions between

51:23

they and

51:25

they do when i think looking back

51:27

that relationship or will was not the right way to

51:29

use

51:30

the relationship has an ordinary dixon remaining

51:33

which is the way to people interact it

51:35

has another meaning of which is

51:37

an equal relationship between two adults

51:40

in a romantic says it is difficult

51:42

when i think that's in part because

51:44

our knowledge and understanding of

51:46

situations like these are

51:48

evolving i know i used

51:51

the words three nights lava multiple

51:53

times go down in the teacher's

51:55

pet podcast series and twenty i

51:58

think i may i don't feel very

52:00

comfortable about that the word

52:02

relationships may is not

52:04

as problematic i'm generally

52:07

opposed to censorship

52:09

of language because i feel that free speech

52:11

and i work as journalists really

52:14

depends on thing out a cool out

52:16

things as they are

52:17

although i agree with you that cancel culture

52:20

is silly and then i don't think

52:22

woods should be censored i've

52:24

learned a lot asia my years as a journalist

52:27

from speaking to survive as if obese about

52:29

how they perceive words i remember once

52:32

not all of these actually that when i was doing

52:34

what reporting about schizophrenia and

52:36

people who suffered from voice hearing

52:38

during hear your stories about new

52:40

treatments for people who heard voices

52:43

i asked one of the scientists is it normal

52:45

to do something or other and she said

52:48

the not fighter would normal know

52:50

is of really loaded word

52:52

because people who for example suffer

52:54

we're hearing

52:56

then all to the normally the spectrum

52:59

the starting point probably used to

53:02

try to cover these matters when they're in

53:04

court with precision

53:07

and according to the shuttle

53:09

cool recording conventions well not keeping

53:12

blame on someone who's many

53:15

people would see as a victim

53:17

funny hilly in the last few days of had the police

53:19

don't censor close to me playing in my

53:21

head and of family so seeing the lyrics and loud

53:39

that a schoolteacher and it was invoked

53:41

in the trial to is tempted

53:44

by a school girl who's interested

53:46

in him the lyrics of that song

53:48

reference the famous book by never called

53:51

which is vladimir nabokov's same

53:53

as nineteen sixty five novel malaysia

53:56

which is about is about on the on the

53:58

who becomes obsessed

53:59

the twelve year old girl

54:01

who he has a sexual

54:04

interaction with sexual interactions with after

54:06

he becomes his father

54:08

that is conceded almost erotic

54:11

in life times of crystals and

54:13

and of us

54:15

the side he has changed enormous

54:17

amounts and that changes been spared

54:19

off in the past probably five years

54:21

by the advent of the me too movement

54:24

were survivors of abuse

54:26

have suddenly found new voice

54:28

and have found themselves understood in ways that perhaps

54:30

hadn't been before

54:32

probably the toughest part of human

54:35

interactions really understanding what's

54:37

going on between human beings human

54:39

beings moments

54:40

very difficult

54:42

nina for now is a walk me award winning

54:45

journalist and and advocate on

54:47

behalf of victims and

54:49

my there's a sexual assault and other

54:51

crime

54:52

the the most amazing thing car about

54:54

the changing nature of society's

54:57

understanding about madison

54:59

sexual consent and many

55:01

other things

55:01

naina created some the his fate campaign

55:04

which

55:04

brought great time to prominence and

55:07

changed laws in multiple jurisdictions

55:09

as australia

55:11

then again you prescribed for me that and pain

55:14

very delicious

55:15

campaign aimed to overhaul

55:17

sexual assault victim gag laws

55:19

which prohibited survive is like grace

55:22

time for being able to use their name in

55:24

public but one of the listener

55:26

and things about that campaign was that it wasn't

55:28

just the gag

55:29

that we ended up going after

55:31

many people would know grace was

55:33

groomed and repeatedly sexually

55:35

assaulted by have math teacher man

55:38

not nicholas best

55:39

this too often actually charged with

55:41

the offensive right what he was charged

55:44

ways that was maintaining a sexual

55:46

relationship with a person under

55:48

the age of seventeen

55:50

now that word relationship to

55:52

some people

55:54

it generates consent

55:56

so it minimizes it's

55:58

sanitizers and roman

55:59

the sizes

56:01

what is actually a very criminal

56:03

traumatic

56:04

and damaging assault or

56:06

series of estimates

56:08

grace and her family and i and others we

56:10

would aim to see that language

56:12

corrected because we know language matters right

56:15

you know which analysts we do with language all the

56:17

time we know that the kinds of woods we

56:19

employ

56:20

we'll have and shape meaning see

56:22

a silicon nice example it might be easy

56:24

to connect that would relationship with a say

56:27

absolutely and they were hitler

56:28

at the time which came out

56:30

that said things like seats

56:32

to the sales with student

56:34

expertise to or lovers

56:37

tryst exposed and

56:39

i think this is critical to on on the playground

56:42

okay cue from the media and

56:44

so they were bullying grace calling her things

56:46

like a home wrecker because in their mine

56:49

because of the media because of the name is a lot

56:52

i saw this is sam how a voluntary

56:54

the mutual relationship as opposed

56:57

to

56:57

a pedophile grooming a

56:59

highly vulnerable child

57:02

the next meeting a series of sexual

57:04

assaults against that child they

57:07

were came to say that language corrected

57:09

so as to accurately reflect the

57:11

severity and the depravity of

57:13

what was going on

57:15

we were successfully that the law has

57:17

now been or the whole so it's gone from being

57:19

cold

57:20

maintaining a sexual relationship with a

57:22

person under the i just seventeen to

57:24

the persistent sexual abuse of a child

57:26

and we think that this new a language

57:28

more accurately reflects the gravity

57:31

of the a sense and described

57:33

many of a pieces of legislation were created

57:35

many years ago and of course reflect the understanding

57:38

of the times in which they were created carnal

57:40

knowledge is a great example of that one

57:43

ounce her arguments to changing

57:45

the name of a criminal offense like

57:47

that

57:48

the counter arguments which i had made

57:50

by some prosecutors

57:51

the if which

57:53

in the language from relationship

57:55

to the persistent sexual abuse of a child

57:58

we're changing the elements of the

57:59

which would need to be proved at

58:02

court and that could actually make

58:04

the burden on the prosecution hotter

58:06

and higher and as a result it might

58:08

result in less convictions

58:11

i don't think anyone believes that the word relationship

58:14

is satisfactory or a good thing

58:16

but there is some debate at law

58:18

as to whether or not changing that

58:20

piece of legislation everywhere around the country

58:23

would be a universally good single would it

58:25

introduce other unintended consequences

58:29

some of our weakness have raised with

58:31

us

58:31

concerned about phraseology being used

58:33

in the crystals and trial in particular

58:36

a me examination and cross examination of

58:38

j say who was he's

58:40

baby sit out and then his second wife i

58:43

wanted to play an extract from something

58:45

that jaycee said in court under

58:48

cross examination by crystals and defence

58:50

barrister pulling david the the

58:52

polling day that nj sees words

58:54

but not their voices

58:57

the relationship between you and mister dawson started

58:59

as an entirely appropriate teacher student

59:01

relationship didn't it

59:03

yeah during the course of that

59:05

year i suggest to you

59:06

in the early part of nineteen eighty one

59:09

you went to see him often because he liked

59:11

the know

59:13

i would suggest to you that you went to

59:15

see him because he was a nice man and he made

59:17

you feel special yeah

59:18

he certainly didn't try to pretend he wasn't

59:21

married did he i think his behavior towards

59:23

me was inappropriate for a schoolteacher

59:26

you will say that but i'm just were just

59:28

talking about the early stages of nineteen

59:30

eighty degree me page

59:33

humane

59:34

simple fact is an s i want

59:36

to suggest to you that you fell in love with

59:38

mr dawson

59:39

the you agree

59:40

no as a laser points you

59:42

fell in love with mr dawson didn't use after

59:44

he grins me and abused me

59:47

and insisted that i marry him i

59:49

wanted to just see that the relationship developed

59:51

to the point where he said in love with you yes

59:55

and you fell in love with him

59:56

the not nine with a choice

59:59

it

59:59

a relationship i object

1:00:02

to calling what he was doing to me a

1:00:04

relationship the you

1:00:06

to come into my room and brush up

1:00:08

against me

1:00:10

the night special attention to me and my

1:00:12

made me feel as though he was targeting

1:00:15

me which was inappropriate regardless

1:00:18

of what i said to him that was not

1:00:20

appropriate i suggest to you that

1:00:22

the relationship was born of a genuine affection

1:00:25

that you develop towards him

1:00:26

no

1:00:29

her name it something else that we're dealing

1:00:31

with in this context is

1:00:33

it's range or perception

1:00:35

of someone who's been in a situation

1:00:38

she's now speaking as a adult lady

1:00:40

reflecting on things that happen when she was it

1:00:43

the woman or child as you heard

1:00:45

that exchange for we thinking

1:00:47

i was actually thinking about something

1:00:50

price once told me which was

1:00:52

the

1:00:53

the old is she gets the younger

1:00:55

she was when you're sustain your old

1:00:58

and you know you and i both remember what would have been like

1:01:00

daniel teenage girls you

1:01:02

do think you has independence in autonomy

1:01:05

and agency and you don't like to think of this

1:01:07

else is being victimized

1:01:09

the answer it's very hard at the time

1:01:11

if your sixteen year old girl being groomed

1:01:14

two

1:01:15

identified as such it's

1:01:17

often only off to subsequent

1:01:19

systems of knowledge has come to bear on

1:01:21

your experience

1:01:23

that you might have to language to make sense

1:01:25

of that and i think we see that that

1:01:28

exchange their where she's using words like the

1:01:30

grooming size grooming is

1:01:32

not even a word that i would have no

1:01:34

it sustain all that perhaps any of

1:01:36

us would have that is a pretty new word in the

1:01:38

lexie cannes of ordinary strains

1:01:40

is they're grooming but also words like

1:01:42

guess lot

1:01:43

and so on i wouldn't have known what that was

1:01:45

when hobby to high school certainly not whereas i'm

1:01:48

quite impressed really

1:01:50

the he had the next

1:01:51

generation is able to deploy

1:01:54

and switch relate to respect for relationships

1:01:56

in wife would simply one hurdles sustain

1:01:59

twenty years ago

1:02:00

the lake the can

1:02:03

actually empower

1:02:04

people who might be victims in

1:02:07

i situations knowing what to call it absolutely

1:02:09

you know we cannot change what we do

1:02:12

not acknowledge and i think if we don't

1:02:14

have the language to acknowledge something we can't

1:02:16

six or change it for survivors

1:02:19

being equipped with the terminology

1:02:21

to label and make sense

1:02:24

of their experiences

1:02:25

the able

1:02:26

them to articulate

1:02:28

what has happened to that and insects in a lot of

1:02:31

counseling processes to part of

1:02:33

what happens in the early sizes is helping

1:02:35

then one day construct a language in this

1:02:37

thought system

1:02:38

the around what has happened to them

1:02:39

and empowering them with more accurate

1:02:42

language to describe what it is

1:02:44

exactly that is gone through i mean i know

1:02:47

we'd not that long ago is it people really

1:02:49

didn't understand that rape within marriage

1:02:51

was a senior all that having

1:02:53

sex with the past out person isn't

1:02:56

cold six it's called right because

1:02:58

it passed out person cannot consent

1:03:00

and very often when i made in with supervisors

1:03:03

to the first time

1:03:05

i'll be working for somebody stores

1:03:07

and coming to that realization and

1:03:10

that stage in their journey where they're able

1:03:12

to

1:03:12

fully understand

1:03:14

the what happens when has a name and

1:03:16

it it is criminal

1:03:27

the just

1:03:30

oh what's this breakfast

1:03:33

from mickey d's for me

1:03:35

yeah why cause it's morning

1:03:37

and you like mcdonalds

1:03:39

while the time there's , deal

1:03:41

for every act of kindness at

1:03:43

mcdonald's the steak egg

1:03:46

and cheese bagel is back at mcdonalds

1:03:48

order ahead and the app and pickup parents die

1:03:50

person participation rate very the app download

1:03:52

registration required

1:04:12

this year now from met pondered

1:04:14

and who has been interviewing willie highland

1:04:18

over the years headley thomas' award winning

1:04:20

podcast the teacher's pet and

1:04:22

now the teachers trial have attracted

1:04:24

millions of followers from all over the world

1:04:27

listeners from here at home in australia to

1:04:30

the uk to india to africa

1:04:32

to the united states have tuned

1:04:34

into the story of the disappearance of wife

1:04:37

and mother lynette dawson in

1:04:39

the summer of ninety ninety two from

1:04:41

her little corner of the planet at

1:04:43

to to winger drive base here on

1:04:45

sydney's northern beaches and

1:04:47

it will be hard to find a more ardent sam

1:04:50

than willie highland who works in

1:04:52

hospitality and lives on a small

1:04:54

farm outside of the picturesque town

1:04:56

of scone in the upper hunter region

1:04:59

about two hundred and seventy kilometers north

1:05:01

of sydney

1:05:04

and i am i willing

1:05:07

hi mom away

1:05:08

i'm very well how yeah

1:05:09

the

1:05:11

willie in her forties and herself

1:05:13

a mother of two daughters has become

1:05:15

so consumed by limits disappearance

1:05:18

and the fate of chris dawson that

1:05:21

see and see and will take time

1:05:23

off work next week and drive

1:05:25

down to city to be present in

1:05:27

court for the trial verdict

1:05:29

to be delivered by his owner justice

1:05:32

in harrison on tuesday aug

1:05:34

thirty for willie the

1:05:36

obsession began more than four years

1:05:38

ago when the teacher's pet first

1:05:41

aired

1:05:42

i listen to in real time

1:05:44

and would hang for every episode

1:05:46

to drop the teacher's pet

1:05:48

that you came about because a girlfriend

1:05:50

that lives that the right here another farm average

1:05:53

seen i were both avid readers of

1:05:55

the australian and will always

1:05:57

benching run things to raid listen to

1:05:59

innocent

1:05:59

watch

1:06:00

and we were both so many with headley

1:06:02

average and

1:06:03

and crap

1:06:05

most sites with

1:06:06

the doctor patel case i

1:06:08

followed that quite strong

1:06:10

and so we knew that anything he

1:06:12

was gonna be involved in with have

1:06:14

dog it adds

1:06:15

she toward uncovering and scratching

1:06:17

we thought

1:06:18

how does the the just really be very

1:06:20

interesting and at

1:06:22

states that perhaps

1:06:23

the other people we had not listened

1:06:25

to journalism in that format great

1:06:28

journalism i grew up in new

1:06:30

zealand so long

1:06:31

from the northern beaches i hadn't certain

1:06:33

limits story and sell i'd say someone

1:06:36

pass on to made it a was going to be

1:06:38

this podcast we have

1:06:40

the on h way

1:06:41

writing search to drop because it was fascinating

1:06:44

that being raised his kids watching parents

1:06:46

read these large post sydney stipend

1:06:50

that we could have that same

1:06:51

right contain come to us in our

1:06:54

time split get that said estate

1:06:57

i os willie what it was specifically

1:06:59

about the story of limit dawson that

1:07:01

had captured her imagination

1:07:03

this thing and me that understand

1:07:06

that some of the injustice and why

1:07:08

things most are slow didn't move at all

1:07:10

as i really can remind

1:07:13

myself of how people behaved

1:07:15

back when people kept to themselves

1:07:18

that you know as my grandmother my grandmother

1:07:20

would have said you didn't a your dirty laundry

1:07:23

public or even with your family members

1:07:26

so does that time that i can really resonate

1:07:29

with that even if women

1:07:31

moving spoken

1:07:32

badly whatever the no one challenge that you know

1:07:34

there was just a lot of stay in your line

1:07:37

people and neighbors didn't look over to

1:07:39

find troubling other people's backyards

1:07:42

so that's one small part of it

1:07:44

that it could really

1:07:45

the united being back there but

1:07:48

i'm a mom and that sundays

1:07:50

the real visceral one and i think they be lots

1:07:52

of listeners that love the intelligence what

1:07:54

should leave delivered to say

1:07:56

that's say maximum to

1:07:59

two young girls

1:07:59

like see what else are mom that neither

1:08:02

perhaps pull out able to has daughter's

1:08:04

dyslexia mom's

1:08:06

take lightly walk away from the children

1:08:08

and women that certainly that door being months

1:08:10

being just simply distant say that say that

1:08:13

that mans just can't

1:08:15

comprehend i come from a

1:08:17

loving family

1:08:18

and the sense of the picture

1:08:20

that we've all been trying to them got to learn through

1:08:23

actually hearing from here and the doing something

1:08:25

there's

1:08:26

once again when you become mother you

1:08:28

instantly think of your own parents especially

1:08:30

or another and you would never willingly

1:08:32

cause try that

1:08:35

this will pay for your mother or your

1:08:37

father or your siblings he just

1:08:39

simply board and that's a large part that i target

1:08:42

release it apart from linen dawson

1:08:45

there was another character in this tragic

1:08:47

draw mother she strongly identified

1:08:49

with

1:08:50

that was soo stress lynn's

1:08:52

long time friend and childcare

1:08:54

work colleague to stress

1:08:57

the woman who never stop reminding authorities

1:08:59

over the years and then decades

1:09:01

lynn was missing and questions

1:09:04

needed to be answered

1:09:06

the gave evidence at the murder trial of chris

1:09:08

dawson in late may

1:09:11

the channel nine chief court reporter

1:09:13

tiffany genders susan

1:09:16

stress has been waiting for this

1:09:18

month and for more than forty years

1:09:21

found here the age of one

1:09:25

of the last people ever to say lynette

1:09:28

dawson when the women work together at

1:09:30

together at care center inside the

1:09:32

worry would shops lean had

1:09:34

already confided in her colleague

1:09:36

about issues at haim the troubled

1:09:38

teenage babysitter and moved in and

1:09:40

was caught naked in the backyard pool

1:09:43

crystals and then left the family

1:09:45

over christmas before reappearing

1:09:47

a few days later but mrs

1:09:49

draft told the trial she believes things

1:09:52

had turned around after seeing

1:09:54

the couple of walk hand-in-hand following

1:09:56

marriage counseling i asked

1:09:59

how did it go

1:09:59

we said oaths it was really

1:10:02

good really positive and i'm hoping

1:10:04

we can move forward and work together

1:10:07

the very next day dosing claims

1:10:09

his wife ran away

1:10:11

three years after lean vanished

1:10:13

season stress says he launched a formal

1:10:16

complaint the beyond business concerns

1:10:19

police and file to investigate what

1:10:21

see that was to be suspicious

1:10:23

disappearance

1:10:25

i have never interviewed no one ever came

1:10:27

looking for her and i

1:10:30

just said what is happening must have the

1:10:32

flu

1:10:36

it was the for russia's loyalty of

1:10:38

sue stress that deeply impacted

1:10:40

willie

1:10:42

i think when clear or one of he mentioned

1:10:44

family and friends to babies elegant

1:10:47

robust seventy , year old

1:10:49

ladies there that was one be shown

1:10:51

that stuck with me for days after

1:10:54

i would like to think that i would be a silly stress

1:10:56

everybody needs one you know they almost needs to be it's

1:10:58

a shit feel safe because

1:11:01

that's real tenacity and love and friendship

1:11:04

the podcast that you will put together for that would

1:11:06

have done that for lot of ah

1:11:07

have you gotten emotional over this

1:11:09

billie under sense in the a very invested

1:11:12

in

1:11:12

the outcome

1:11:16

incredibly

1:11:20

ship had put into

1:11:22

words for

1:11:25

those reasons i said

1:11:26

no you don't

1:11:28

walk away from children

1:11:31

hum

1:11:33

and i think i realize that the scene

1:11:35

of the family in the end of his children

1:11:37

that would not have wind

1:11:40

or the time that will resist

1:11:42

right and the country and there's a

1:11:44

lot of

1:11:45

the lot of country mean i guess seen

1:11:47

as is a lot of them

1:11:49

the unwritten conduct

1:11:51

an uncut laws and kind of

1:11:53

life and the country a girlfriend

1:11:55

and girlfriend we got to

1:11:56

i see the

1:11:58

judges findings judges findings them

1:11:59

that's because it's one of the

1:12:02

unwritten rule

1:12:03

is the blossom the countries that people [unk]

1:12:04

show up you , you shop

1:12:06

in a dry your shopping across his you

1:12:09

show up to listen and then what might be made

1:12:11

his bar paypal but you show up just

1:12:13

to show your respect

1:12:15

what he says she's tried not to think

1:12:17

about the verdict one way or the other

1:12:20

well before we learned that this podcast

1:12:22

would even allow things

1:12:24

to move along says it crystal thing

1:12:26

would be charged

1:12:28

girlfriend i would venture about what if you

1:12:30

days to see how many people out thing that

1:12:32

wanted to show the risk was i wouldn't it be wonderful

1:12:34

if we could have the size that you wait a minute

1:12:36

they recover you go down and stand

1:12:38

on his side rebates with maybe a great show

1:12:40

it is a family and friends

1:12:42

the did some actual about that and so

1:12:44

now that it is a dad judge

1:12:45

the crit dose and from a judge my

1:12:48

gosh

1:12:48

you know we feel that bore greatest respect

1:12:50

we could show the net and a daughter and

1:12:53

his siblings and his family would

1:12:55

be to turn on

1:12:57

the to not listen

1:12:59

the

1:13:00

the would unfolds on that day

1:13:02

thank you willie

1:13:04

and thank you everybody for all of your support

1:13:06

over these past seventeen episodes

1:13:09

of the teachers trial

1:13:10

they will be an enormous amount

1:13:12

of material for us to raid

1:13:15

and develop for podcast

1:13:17

episodes after the verdict it's

1:13:19

gonna take some time and we expect

1:13:22

to do multiple episodes i

1:13:24

wouldn't be surprised play if we end

1:13:26

up with at least three

1:13:28

episodes covering the

1:13:31

verdict given how detail we

1:13:33

expect justice in harrison to be

1:13:36

he's reasons

1:13:37

well the day of the verdict will be right here

1:13:40

to let you know the results will

1:13:42

have multiple episodes of the teachers

1:13:44

trial coming up after we know it a result

1:13:47

and you'll be able to raid all our news

1:13:49

and analysis and he directly

1:13:51

from headley at the australian dot

1:13:53

com dot au jump

1:13:56

over to our daily podcast the friends

1:13:58

for updates for

1:13:59

from the cold

1:14:01

you can find different wherever you are listening

1:14:03

to this podcast early i

1:14:05

think were absolutely fascinated by every tiny

1:14:07

detail of this case and something i've learned

1:14:10

since we asked listens to contact

1:14:12

us with their feedback

1:14:13

the the audience is also really

1:14:15

into the details so we're looking forward

1:14:17

to unpacking all of that

1:14:20

the course of the quality and volume of

1:14:22

questions that we've received and the fact

1:14:24

that we can only deal with a small sample

1:14:27

in this episode and of course

1:14:29

we have the verdict episodes coming

1:14:31

out because of justice in harrison's

1:14:34

decision beings you were

1:14:36

planning to produce an episode

1:14:38

that will be effectively dedicated to

1:14:40

answering as many more questions as

1:14:42

possible and we're hoping to get

1:14:45

to a number of your questions

1:14:47

that you haven't yet heard in

1:14:49

the podcast just bear

1:14:51

with us is quite a bit for us to

1:14:53

unpack over the next week in the

1:14:55

coming weeks

1:15:02

david murray [unk] mathieu condon clay

1:15:04

hobby and i will be back next week

1:15:06

with another episode of the teachers trial

1:15:09

in the meantime you can read all the coverage

1:15:11

right now at the teachers trial dot

1:15:13

com dot au the teachers

1:15:15

trial podcast is written in pot

1:15:17

and presented by me headley thomas

1:15:20

with assistance and contributions from

1:15:22

my colleagues editorial director

1:15:24

and host of the front podcast clay a

1:15:26

hobby senior reporter matthew com

1:15:28

the national crime correspondent david

1:15:31

murray executive producer del forum

1:15:33

and produce a kristen amy it if

1:15:35

music and audio production by wasabi

1:15:38

audio for more information

1:15:40

more information ongoing trial and latest updates

1:15:43

from out journalists go to

1:15:45

the teachers trial dot com go

1:15:47

to you

1:15:50

all