0:10

Welcome to the spy who

0:10

raised me podcast conversations

0:14

between a daughter and her

0:14

father. Yes, you've guessed it,

0:17

he was a spy. So Dad, we're sitting in

0:25

Aberdeenshire, in my husband

0:30

Mike's Furniture Workshop,

0:30

because it's the only cool

0:32

place. It's slap bang in a

0:32

heatwave, and you're up

0:35

visiting. I don't think the

0:35

temperature that we've reached

0:38

is as high as it is in the south

0:38

of England, which is merciful,

0:41

really, because I think they're

0:41

experiencing 36 to 40 degrees

0:45

Celsius. And we are a cool 28 or

0:45

29. Here, weather that we don't

0:51

normally experience. But still

0:51

field feels hot. It does. So

0:56

we're cool in the workshop. And

0:56

we've just been discussing

1:00

Ukraine and Russia. So we've

1:00

been in this awful situation

1:04

where Putin ordered a an

1:04

invasion of Ukraine. And it's

1:09

really made us think about and

1:09

talk about dad's career in

1:13

intelligence. And one of the

1:13

constants in your career was

1:19

Russia. Why was that? And what

1:19

do you think about what's going

1:23

on in Ukraine? Well, I think there's always

1:25

been an awareness that Russia

1:30

has the potential to be a very

1:30

bad neighbor in Europe, but also

1:35

across across the world. And

1:35

there have been so many

1:39

incidences of aggression, and of

1:39

Russia seeking to bring back

1:46

territory that they felt was

1:46

part of the Soviet Empire before

1:51

1989, before the collapse of

1:51

communism. So it's, it is

1:57

reached a point where all the

1:57

pundits are scratching their

2:03

heads because the invasion of

2:03

Ukraine has had repercussions

2:11

across the world, not just

2:11

between Europe, and Ukraine, and

2:16

Russia. But all the big powers

2:16

are being affected in some way.

2:21

And they're beginning to change

2:21

their, their approach, America

2:25

is probably Case in point,

2:25

certainly in Europe, with the

2:30

complications of Brexit, as far

2:30

as Britain is concerned, but

2:35

also in with the threat to some

2:35

of the the historically neutral

2:41

countries like Norway and

2:41

Sweden, who have always vowed

2:45

not to be part of NATO, and to

2:45

do the thing, which they've done

2:50

exceptionally well during the

2:50

Cold War. And they have kept

2:55

their neutrality, but now with

2:55

the pressure of Ukraine, and

2:59

Putin who seems somewhat

2:59

demented to the rest of the

3:04

world, but he has such a clear

3:04

vision, I think, as he seizes of

3:08

grabbing some of the land that

3:08

yet for was part of the Soviet

3:13

Union. So he, it's his strategy

3:13

is obviously, to try and take

3:21

back some of the areas like

3:21

Crimea, like Georgia, where he

3:26

feels that Russians are in

3:26

control or should be in control.

3:32

This is why and that part of the

3:32

coast of the Black Sea is trying

3:37

to negotiate a means by which he

3:37

can, he can take control of

3:43

larger areas. And this is a

3:43

great fear in Germany and other

3:48

countries in Europe. And of

3:48

course, economically, because it

3:53

was his control over energy

3:53

supplies. He has a very strong

3:58

hand play. And of course, the

3:58

Europeans are now sitting back

4:01

thinking, Oh, my God, why did we

4:01

agree to signing a deal giving

4:05

us her energy almost

4:05

predominantly from Russia. So

4:10

Russia now can control that they

4:10

can turn on the tap, they can

4:13

turn off the tap, but also with

4:13

the with the adage, shock of

4:19

invasion and the Ukraine, and

4:19

with the arsenal of weapons,

4:24

they have no which are not,

4:24

which are not just battlefield

4:28

weapons, but weapons that can

4:28

threaten far as America. They're

4:33

just so they're so well

4:33

organized, that we just have to

4:40

wait and see what the next move

4:40

is from Russia.

4:46

Politically, diplomatically.

4:46

What do you think is going on in

4:52

the intelligence circles, or

4:52

what has been going on since

4:56

Russia invaded? Give us an

4:56

insight into what sort of

5:00

Conversations, what sort of

5:00

international relations, what

5:04

sort of changes to international

5:04

security will have happened as a

5:09

result of this invasion? Well, I think it's changed quite

5:13

markedly since since the 80s.

5:17

Where it was a question of

5:17

having targets that were of

5:22

interest to the security

5:22

services in the UK and America,

5:28

Australia, and New Zealand. And

5:28

that has changed so much in the

5:34

last few years. I mean, the

5:34

types of weapons they're using,

5:39

the types of communication

5:39

they're using, just know very

5:43

difficult with the present,

5:43

communication set up to control

5:50

what's being said. And also the

5:50

Russians in particular,

5:55

probably, to a lesser extent,

5:55

the Chinese have the ability to

6:02

corrupt the communication

6:02

channels between between the

6:06

allies and between European

6:06

countries. So So cybersecurity

6:11

is such an important part of how

6:11

work gets done now. And of

6:17

course, America, I think, has

6:17

been slow to react to that as as

6:23

Europe, and everyone's beginning

6:23

to realize that they have to get

6:28

control of that Chinese Russians

6:28

may be working together, they

6:33

may not be, but it's a huge

6:33

threat when your own

6:38

communications are not secure.

6:38

When systems systems of of

6:46

collecting information is

6:46

corrupted by the Russians and by

6:50

the Chinese and by other

6:50

countries. So it's never quite

6:53

sure whether they can be certain

6:53

of cyber security, which is a

7:01

massive, massive consideration

7:01

if you're if you're looking at a

7:06

potential invasion of the whole

7:06

of Europe. And not America. I

7:13

don't think the Russians would

7:13

contemplate after this. You're

7:16

already in their 60s When when

7:16

they got into Cuba with nuclear

7:24

weapon. So that point about cyber

7:28

security, how does the

7:32

intelligence community so the

7:32

US, Europe and other allies, how

7:38

do they defend themselves from

7:38

that cyber threat? Is it just a

7:42

case of keeping one step ahead

7:42

of the Russians? Or are there

7:45

other techniques that you think

7:45

that they will be using?

7:50

Well, I think I think the

7:50

problem is it's so complicated

7:53

now. Because the Chinese, I

7:53

think, probably and Chinese in

7:58

particular, have been aware of

7:58

the possibilities of corrupting

8:05

collection, intelligence

8:05

collection by other countries.

8:08

But of course, they have been

8:08

instrumental in and providing a

8:13

lot of the components that are

8:13

used, and modern communications

8:17

tips and things like that. I

8:17

mean, they control not just the

8:21

manufacturer of those things,

8:21

but also the source of different

8:26

chemicals. They need to provide

8:26

that. So that's why in the last

8:31

decade, probably, the Brits have

8:31

been conscious of this massive

8:37

threat, and have the possibility

8:37

of all our communications being

8:42

subverted or mis directed, in

8:42

the sense that when they send

8:48

information, data information,

8:48

and satellite, if it's a

8:54

components of switch their their

8:54

communications are set up, were

8:59

manufactured in China, it's a

8:59

very difficult thing with the

9:05

software problems to find out

9:05

what what they've done, which is

9:10

why why are we there? You know,

9:10

all that. All that purely was,

9:15

was to do with with that, how

9:15

much do they know how much can

9:19

they control even even systems

9:19

of war, like guided missiles,

9:25

like a protective screens for

9:25

possibility of attack from

9:31

Russia? So I mean, all of that

9:31

is is just huge worry for people

9:39

and rush slow to begin, I think,

9:39

China in particular, over the

9:45

last 20 years, maybe more, have

9:45

been creating an empire which is

9:51

fairly do sir, not aggressive,

9:51

very intrusive at all these

9:55

countries were essential

9:55

chemicals. as necessary, they've

10:01

invested in them, they're now in

10:01

control of huge parts of the

10:06

world where they have unlimited

10:06

access to all those things that

10:11

are required for high tech

10:11

communication system. And, and I

10:16

think the Americans are just

10:16

beginning to realize that, of

10:20

course, they have a lot of

10:20

Chinese people who are learning

10:23

how to put communication systems

10:23

together, and Silicon Valley and

10:28

places like that. And to what

10:28

extent those people who have

10:31

been experimenting and

10:31

supporting investment in America

10:38

and in Europe, to what extent

10:38

some of the systems have been,

10:42

without the host countries

10:42

knowing have been incorporated

10:46

in these know what they are

10:46

supplying for the rest of the

10:50

world. So it's a very, very

10:50

complex situation. And of

10:55

course, you can see that by, by

10:55

the way, the bread and butter

10:59

Americans in whole of Europe,

10:59

have now increased dramatically

11:04

in the amount of people who are

11:04

working on cybersecurity.

11:10

And, of course, GCHQ has

11:10

invested a huge amount into

11:14

cyber, they've got a new

11:14

facility in London, or they've

11:17

ramped up their recruitment, and

11:17

also their outreach into the

11:20

community to try and find good

11:20

people to go and work in in

11:24

GCHQ. Because of this cyber

11:24

threat, how far do you think

11:28

they will have come in those

11:28

years since they've ramped up

11:32

their cyber focus? What I can gather and what I can

11:35

glean from various sources, they

11:41

are way ahead of Europe, the way

11:41

ahead of America sets out in

11:46

America, they have certain areas

11:46

where they have invested a lot

11:51

of money, but it's still the

11:51

case that, you know, as far as

11:56

certainly the armed forces are

11:56

concerned, they are very nervous

12:02

about deploying troops and

12:02

equipment to places like well,

12:10

like the Ukraine, whether and in

12:10

Afghanistan, whether the quality

12:16

of the information they're

12:16

getting, and what on which they

12:19

base their their approach to

12:19

invaded countries like like

12:27

Afghanistan, they're not at all

12:27

sure that that what they have

12:31

is, is bona fide D and can be

12:31

used as the sole source of of

12:37

background intelligence. So what other sources would they

12:39

be using to get

12:43

that information? Well, I'm in

12:43

the US the normal using

12:48

diplomatic sources, but also

12:48

targeting I guess, some of the

12:52

leaders who are who are, like

12:52

Putin, to try and build up a

12:58

picture of what their thought

12:58

processes might may be, because

13:03

it's not just a question now,

13:03

wondering whether countries like

13:07

Russia can be a huge, important

13:07

force and attacking other

13:12

countries. We know they are, we

13:12

know that ahead. Some of them

13:15

and we know that energy and

13:15

supply of gas and oil and dirt

13:21

is such a crucial factor because

13:21

they can't they know that they

13:27

can turn the tap off and and

13:27

cripple European system that

13:32

depends so heavily on energy and

13:32

why, why those countries,

13:37

particularly Germany, were

13:37

foolish enough to sign into

13:42

that. And it just shows you that

13:42

the economics of countries and

13:47

areas has changed so

13:47

dramatically. For sources of

13:52

food, heating, aging, population

13:52

populations, increasing

13:57

populations, all other things

13:57

are factors. And of course, the

14:00

supply of energy is, is a nerve

14:00

nerve center. Because if you

14:06

don't have gas, if you don't

14:06

have various thing, you don't

14:09

have the supplies that should be

14:09

coming in and from other

14:15

countries, countries like Africa

14:15

and DRC, like Kazakhstan. I

14:20

mean, there's so many sources

14:20

now of essential chemicals from

14:27

other countries that we've just

14:27

missed the plot I think in all

14:32

those areas, which Manchuria

14:32

choose another one I can I can

14:39

think of where they've been

14:39

working out where the Chinese in

14:41

particular, looking for sources

14:41

of energy that they can control

14:48

and that is pretty put the whole

14:48

of the Western world and, and

14:54

our predicament that none of

14:54

them's for so at least if they

14:58

did they weren't aware If the

14:58

seriousness of the situation,

15:03

and it takes me on to thinking

15:03

about sanctions, you know,

15:06

they're all well and good,

15:06

putting sanctions on Russia. But

15:11

some countries, some companies

15:11

really struggle to separate

15:16

those ties, because they're so

15:16

dependent on energy from Russia.

15:21

So we can sanction and stop

15:21

imports and stop money

15:24

movements. But as long as that

15:24

energy supply is still there, as

15:28

the world prices have gone up to

15:28

the to the level that they are,

15:32

then there's still a steady

15:32

supply of income for Russia to

15:36

be able to fund what it needs to

15:36

do in Ukraine.

15:40

Absolutely. And of course,

15:40

energy means food, because you

15:45

need energy to, to manufacture

15:45

fertilizer, you need money to be

15:52

able to store huge amounts of

15:52

food, as is the case in the

15:56

Ukraine, where they have huge

15:56

storage areas for for different

16:03

types of grain. I mean, they

16:03

have produced what 10% of the

16:07

food and in the civilized world,

16:07

so So here we are with a

16:10

situation where an ADESA and

16:10

other points across the Black

16:16

Sea, that are huge amounts of

16:16

grain from from last year, and

16:23

can't move up. And no, no, it

16:23

sounds like whether it's true,

16:28

whether it's not the Russians

16:28

are beginning to move some of

16:33

that, especially in the Donbass

16:33

that that area, which makes you

16:39

think, Well, what should they be

16:39

doing in the Black Sea, because

16:42

the Black Sea is as they have

16:42

access to it. So has the

16:47

Ukraine, there has darky. So I

16:47

have a few other countries. And

16:51

you would think that if there

16:51

was a pinch point, now in that

16:56

area to make sure that at least

16:56

parts of the rest of the world

17:01

could benefit from, from those

17:01

huge storage of food. That, as

17:08

with them, as of the ship, the

17:08

battleship was sunk and the

17:13

Black Sea a few months ago, I

17:13

mean, that that sort of thing

17:17

will harass the Russians, and

17:17

perhaps make them reach a point

17:22

where they're thinking, well,

17:22

this isn't working. But once

17:26

you've got files, they've got

17:26

that and as you're saying, Jane,

17:29

the fact that they have control

17:29

of the energy, they're so

17:34

strong, I mean, they're really

17:34

so strong, and it's going to be

17:38

so difficult to send the

17:38

Ukraine, we're lucky that the

17:42

Ukrainians are so well

17:42

organized. And and, you know,

17:47

politically but also with armed

17:47

forces. They I don't think

17:53

anybody realized they were so

17:53

dedicated to gang. And I mean,

17:58

they managed to, they managed to

17:58

subvert their Russian invasion

18:03

in various spaces. But when you

18:03

see that the absolute, certainly

18:08

unbelievable amount of weapons

18:08

that Russia has stored over the

18:11

past two decades or so. I mean,

18:11

they've just, it's incredible.

18:18

And so but the Ukrainians, given

18:18

the circumstances going some,

18:23

given some support by other

18:23

countries, given some systems

18:27

that can nullify the Russians

18:27

with their superior weapons.

18:34

They've done a fantastic job,

18:34

right.

18:37

Yeah, I agree, dad. And it's

18:37

it's interesting, heartening,

18:44

just sobering to see how Ukraine

18:44

has responded. I mean, there's

18:49

such patriotism, such love of

18:49

their land. Those poor people

18:54

have been through so much

18:54

destroyed everything that they

18:57

have. And under great

18:57

leadership, I mean, Zelensky has

19:04

been tremendous, hasn't the

19:04

rallying his opponents in the

19:10

political sphere to support him,

19:10

his decision making the country

19:16

the nation has been behind him,

19:16

despite some horrible decisions

19:21

for families where the men of

19:21

the family have been left in

19:24

Ukraine to fight and meanwhile,

19:24

families parents have moved away

19:30

from Ukraine to safety, which is

19:30

absolutely right. But that

19:33

dedication to the leader and to

19:33

the cause for the country is

19:37

just you don't expect it in this

19:37

era. Do you

19:41

know you're doing I think, you

19:41

know, the situation where I

19:46

live, some of the refugees

19:46

Ukrainian refugees are now

19:50

settled in villages around

19:50

Oxfordshire, which is an amazing

19:56

thing, but it's so it's quite

19:56

humbling to see because of it

20:00

Elijah I live in, there are now

20:00

an excess of 50 Ukrainian

20:05

refugees who have moved in and

20:05

it's only a village with 300

20:08

homes, I think so it's so it's

20:08

incredible. But you can see

20:13

firsthand the difficulties that

20:13

some of these families have.

20:17

Because the scenario if a male

20:17

is over eating, they can't leave

20:24

the Ukraine, they have to fight

20:24

in whatever part of the armed

20:30

forces. So there's this very

20:30

difficult situation where, where

20:38

people come, come to this

20:38

country settle. And they're just

20:46

remarkably well, they're just

20:46

fantastic people. But you'll

20:50

hear some someone talking to

20:50

their husband who's in the front

20:54

line. And you can hear the sound

20:54

of shelling as

20:59

it has spoken to some of the

20:59

people living in your village in

21:03

North Morton, it's been just

21:03

wonderful to see how the

21:06

community has embraced people

21:06

from Ukraine, mothers, children,

21:13

God's sons, nephews, just that

21:13

not only have you seen families

21:19

within the UK taking people in,

21:19

but you've also seen families

21:23

from Ukraine, helping one

21:23

another out to bring pets and

21:27

children over. But it's just

21:27

been so lovely to see how the

21:31

community has rallied in in your

21:31

village and really embrace them

21:37

help them because they've come

21:37

here with absolutely nothing

21:40

other than their passports. And

21:40

they have to set up their lives

21:44

from scratch, they've got no

21:44

money, they've got no

21:47

citizenship, nowhere to go to

21:47

school. So they come needing all

21:52

of that setups, the families

21:52

have not only welcomed them in,

21:54

but they've also sorted out

21:54

everything that they need in

21:57

their lives, dentists, doctors,

21:57

social security, support,

22:01

hospital appointments, doctor's

22:01

appointments, Getting Started at

22:04

a new school, you know, just it's never ending. And it's,

22:07

it's happened so quickly. I

22:12

mean, from the first indication

22:12

that, you know, we in the

22:16

village could could accept

22:16

refugee, it's, it's just

22:21

phenomenal how quickly it's been

22:21

set up, our lines of

22:24

communication have been set up,

22:24

how the schools have been, you

22:29

know, consulted. And I mean,

22:29

they have they have been most

22:34

incredible, it's quite an

22:34

interesting aside that some of

22:37

the private schools, and there

22:37

are a lot of people, children

22:42

from that area, from the village

22:42

I live in, but also in that in

22:46

that area who go to private

22:46

school, lots of different

22:49

private schools that are quite

22:49

prestigious. And it was quite an

22:54

interesting thing to observe how

22:54

quickly local primary schools

23:00

and secondary schools reaching

23:00

out to the refugee children,

23:05

within weeks of them arriving we

23:05

were single, well, we could

23:09

maybe do this, I don't think we

23:09

private schools were quite so

23:12

forthcoming. But there's, there's there has

23:12

been some lovely stories of 100%

23:17

support for, you know, bright

23:17

children to go into, you know,

23:24

other forms of education,

23:24

private grammar, because they

23:28

were on a really good trajectory

23:28

back in Ukraine. And it's been

23:32

great to see those examples, as

23:32

well as the, you know, the state

23:35

schools welcoming them in and

23:35

gearing them themselves up to

23:40

have language skills to be able

23:40

to support these children. As

23:44

they come into school. Some of

23:44

them don't speak English.

23:47

And they don't speak English,

23:47

but they have they have an

23:50

aptitude for language. And it's

23:50

amazing how quickly I mean, a

23:55

lot of the villagers have got

23:55

together so they have a class of

24:00

I think it's four villagers,

24:00

people who volunteer to go and

24:05

set up language training thing

24:05

in the village hall, which is

24:10

which is great. But and it's

24:10

interesting to see to the

24:14

disparity and, and education

24:14

facilities throughout the United

24:20

Kingdom. One one very bright

24:20

young Ukrainian who, who moved

24:27

into the village a few months

24:27

ago, he he was saying his

24:32

contacting a couple of

24:32

universities. And he he said,

24:37

and I think Glasgow University

24:37

might be might replace and I

24:42

said why Glasgow University

24:42

said, Well, it's got a good

24:45

reputation which also you don't

24:45

have to pay.

24:51

And it was interesting, we, I

24:51

know, there was a family in your

24:55

village where there was a

24:55

possibility of a one of the

24:58

children going to a private A

24:58

school. And the mother made the

25:02

decision absolutely correctly

25:02

for her circumstance that the

25:07

schools a long way away, she

25:07

didn't know how long that school

25:10

would support her child. And

25:10

also, it was likely that she was

25:15

as her mother, she was likely to

25:15

be working in the town where the

25:18

local comprehensive was. And so

25:18

for her, the practical and the

25:21

right decision was for the child

25:21

to go to the local

25:24

comprehensive, where they could

25:24

travel in in the morning

25:27

together, it would save them

25:27

cost a free bus that would take

25:32

them in so the practicalities of

25:32

living have dictated a lot of

25:37

the decisions that the families have made. Yeah, that's true. I mean, all

25:39

of them seem very sensible. And,

25:44

and the interesting thing, too,

25:44

is how, how quickly, they have

25:51

become a group. Not one, it's

25:51

that a divorce from the

25:56

activities of the village, but

25:56

one that's seeking to join some

26:05

of the committees to be a part of that community.

26:08

And one really good example that

26:11

was the project you started

26:11

during lockdown, which was

26:14

putting up polytunnels on

26:14

community owned land, and you

26:19

gained funding from the local

26:19

community council to put up

26:22

those polytunnels? Well, number

26:22

two is going up now. And you've

26:27

said that that's been a real

26:27

draw for the Ukrainian people in

26:32

your community. They've come

26:32

they want to grow things.

26:35

Yeah. They love doing that. So

26:35

now we've got I mean, we've

26:39

encouraged in the very

26:39

beginning, and some of them have

26:43

quite close to the, to the

26:43

project, and they come now so

26:48

they'll come and say, Oh, we we

26:48

got some cabbages and we got

26:54

this guy, but they don't stop

26:54

there. Then what happens a

26:58

couple of days later, they'll

26:58

come and say, Oh, we've made

27:02

this you know, like salads or

27:02

there's one dish where he's

27:08

chopped up various things like

27:08

beet juice and other vegetables.

27:12

Because borscht the so that

27:12

they've planted loads or

27:17

beetroot and radish and

27:17

pumpkins. And there's a chatting

27:22

all the time saying, Hey, we

27:22

could do this, do that. And you

27:27

heard about the the event. They

27:27

organized themselves, no help

27:32

from the village, and recreation

27:32

grand and they set up Sonic a

27:38

couple of weeks ago, very

27:38

secretive it was and they

27:42

weren't telling us what they

27:42

were tending to do. But when it

27:47

happened on the night, I think

27:47

it must have been about 100. And

27:51

I know 120 People, okay, and

27:51

they had made all the food, her

27:56

dress up and national dress

27:56

done. The Ukrainian well

28:01

welcoming dance are the holes in

28:01

all 50 or however many that were

28:07

stood up. One little girl did a

28:07

wee bit of DOCTYPE dancing. And

28:16

one was an opera singer. So all

28:16

this was going on. It was

28:21

bizarre because they were they

28:21

would come come as people came

28:26

and recreation. They were coming

28:26

up and welcoming those who spoke

28:31

English or saying Welcome, come

28:31

and have a drink. And that was

28:36

a lovely thing. It's just it

28:36

shows how grateful they are and

28:42

how much they want to share

28:42

their culture comes back to that

28:47

point about how you know how

28:47

that sense of pride national

28:53

pride is just so strong in

28:53

Ukraine. And we've seen that

28:59

every turn in this conflict,

28:59

haven't we

29:02

so adept, one of the you know,

29:02

listening to some of my I can I

29:08

got involved in, in dropping

29:08

some of the closer one engineer

29:13

who didn't the village wants to

29:13

go shopping. I would say well

29:17

just just text me. I can take

29:17

you out and you see. So that was

29:21

fine. But they were saying as as

29:21

they have settled, they've also

29:28

began to be more open about

29:28

what's happening in the Ukraine.

29:32

You see, I was chatting to one

29:32

who speaks good English. And I

29:35

said what's it like in those

29:35

areas where, you know, there are

29:40

some Russian speaking and she

29:40

said it's really difficult. She

29:43

said, we know this family viewed

29:43

themselves as Ukrainian. But we

29:49

have other bits of the family

29:49

who are further east in the

29:52

Donbass and some in Russia, and

29:52

she said it's just impossible.

29:57

There is so much bad

29:57

information. Sure. And of

30:00

course, the Russian media is

30:00

controlled, every bit of it is

30:05

controlled. So the stuff that

30:05

they're spouting is Russia is so

30:10

so closed. No, no. What all the

30:10

news. So then to say to Russian

30:18

people in the Ukraine, terror

30:18

and Ukrainians, were doing this,

30:23

it's not a war, really, we're

30:23

doing so it's a military

30:27

exercise, which is absolute

30:27

nonsense. So that all that it's

30:33

created a lot of divisions in

30:33

between the Ukrainians and the

30:38

Russians in that meta familial level. That's

30:41

that's, you don't think about

30:44

that? Do you? And Dad, how do

30:44

you think this will play out?

30:49

You know, the conflicts been

30:49

going on for well over six

30:53

months now? It doesn't look like

30:53

it's going to abate. What are

30:58

your views? How do you think

30:58

this will play out? How do you

31:01

think it will end? Well, I think it's so difficult

31:03

because I mean, you know, got

31:07

America has taken quite a strong

31:07

hand in is having, I think, lost

31:16

their ascendancy and oil

31:16

politics because of Afghan

31:21

Afghanistan, basically. And, of

31:21

course, with Brexit and all the

31:27

shenanigans that the Europeans

31:27

and Turkey was a big was a big

31:34

part of is a big part of what's

31:34

happening because they sound as

31:38

if, although douarnenez is one

31:38

of Putin's friends, he does

31:46

sound as if he's backed off a

31:46

bit from that and is beginning

31:49

to look at other countries, and

31:49

also the food supplies from from

31:55

and that's going to be a huge

31:55

issue because because it affects

32:00

you know, all the countries and

32:00

especially in Africa who are

32:03

suffering like Somalia and

32:03

Eritrea. And while throughout

32:08

throughout Africa, we just will

32:08

not have enough food so so we're

32:12

gonna try and release I think I

32:12

think the Ukrainians probably

32:15

have managed to split it summer,

32:15

some of those stored corn and

32:20

samplers, it's a bit dimeric.

32:20

The Russians have they think

32:25

managed to stop that in certain

32:25

areas, and they have taken some

32:30

of the food because they'll be

32:30

shorter food to feeding an army

32:33

that that, you know, go away

32:33

from multiple.

32:37

Just just hearing you say that,

32:37

you know, there's no, I don't

32:41

sense from you that you see this

32:41

ending anytime soon. I feel the

32:45

same. Just feel there is

32:45

escalation, if anything, because

32:51

the Ukrainians are getting more

32:51

armaments, more defense support.

32:58

NATO is still doing its job of

32:58

being, you know, it's slightly

33:06

impartial self or a slightly

33:06

impartial force. But it is also

33:13

gaining in strength. So Norway

33:13

and Sweden, you know, that's a

33:17

big move. Turkey backing down on

33:17

not allowing them to join is a

33:22

big move. So there are some

33:22

some, you know, big things

33:26

happening within the defense

33:26

world. But I don't like you, I

33:29

don't see an end to this anytime

33:29

soon, which is gravely worrying

33:34

from a practical point of view,

33:34

energy, food, inflation, but

33:40

also, from a world security

33:40

perspective. If anything, one

33:46

positive thing that will come

33:46

out of this is the international

33:49

relationships post COVID, where

33:49

most countries become very

33:53

became very nationalistic,

33:53

focused on survival of their

33:57

nation, getting people

33:57

vaccinated. If anything, it has

34:01

opened up the world to unite

34:01

some parts of the world to unite

34:05

over this over this issue. I think that's I think that's

34:07

true. And I think that's a good

34:11

thing. That sort of sort of

34:11

happened, but we're still you

34:16

know, I mean, some of the

34:16

Western nations, Europe and

34:20

America, certainly they're, you

34:20

know, they have ambivalent views

34:25

on refugees, for example. I

34:25

mean, it's got this huge climate

34:29

change. With that lack of food

34:29

with with the increase in

34:34

population, the numbers are

34:34

appearing. It's going to be a

34:39

bigger and bigger problem. And

34:39

people maybe predominantly from

34:44

Africa, but also other poor

34:44

nations, that they're going to

34:48

they're going to start up the

34:48

tempo and they'll be looking for

34:53

for settling another country and

34:53

our attitude and I think

34:57

probably Americans attitude,

34:57

it's It's such a controversial

35:02

thing. And I mean, I, I can, you

35:02

know, when you look back at

35:06

angler Merkel and her famous

35:06

began when she when she let her

35:11

and I don't know how many there

35:11

is a million or something or

35:14

half a million refugees. She's

35:14

East German, so that would

35:18

probably have affected her. But

35:18

I mean, we're gonna have to

35:21

relax and the number of people

35:21

we're allowed to come in and

35:24

sending them off to Rwanda, for

35:24

example, it's just wow.

35:29

Yeah. Let's not get on to Boris

35:29

Johnson and his politics, we'll

35:34

be here for another three hours.

35:34

just laughable,

35:39

who says she's. So yeah, so

35:39

that's all interesting journey.

35:44

And I think, you know, future

35:44

podcasts we now have, I mean, we

35:49

haven't made podcasts for for

35:49

quite some time, for simple

35:52

reason that, that so much is

35:52

happening, you feel know that so

35:57

much happening, that it's not up

35:57

to date, podcast on what is

36:03

happening, maybe with, with a

36:03

different view, and just some, I

36:07

mean, some of that some of the

36:07

reporting, that we're hearing

36:11

now is just fantastic. You know,

36:11

like John Simpson, and others

36:16

who are really digging in and

36:16

getting some some valuable

36:20

stuff, you know, from UK and

36:20

within Ukraine, but also also in

36:25

the Russian area. Yeah. ever grateful to our

36:26

media. And we're, we're so lucky

36:31

to have media that's free. And

36:31

like that, and how that are

36:35

funded to be able to go out and

36:35

tell these stories, and long may

36:39

that continue, and dangerous have been seven

36:41

days assignment. Oh,

36:45

yeah, they take on, it's such a

36:45

huge personal responsibility, I

36:48

don't know. But anyway, Dad,

36:48

that's 40 minutes. And it is,

36:53

and it's been absolutely lovely

36:53

talking to you in person. And we

36:57

don't see enough of each other.

36:57

And I do love listening to you,

37:00

we've learned so much about your

37:00

views and your past and your

37:04

thoughts. And you think deeply

37:04

about things you listen to so

37:08

much. And you've had you've had

37:08

LBC up to your ear for the last

37:12

24 hours listening to what's

37:12

going on in the world. And you

37:16

know that that's such a healthy

37:16

way to live your life about, you

37:20

know, what's going on the world

37:20

keeping up to date and having

37:23

debates like this. So thank you.

37:25

I think it is wonderful. You

37:25

think it'll make a difference in

37:28

the long run all this, you know,

37:28

navel gazing, and they can see

37:34

whether our system political and

37:34

economic 10 koolart will look

37:39

back and five years time and

37:39

say, Well,

37:42

I hope so. I think conversation

37:42

is the starting point for

37:47

resolution. And I think if more

37:47

people talk about their

37:51

differences, as well as where

37:51

they agree, then you know, and I

37:57

wish Solinsky and Putin could do

37:57

that. But it's it's not going to

38:01

happen anytime too soon. So in

38:01

the meantime, we'll watch on and

38:06

see what Britain's going to do. You

38:06

know that you know, the dog

38:09

litter burden in the village or

38:09

suddenly has breached or if a

38:15

dog ran ran the back of the

38:15

benefit Putin.

38:23

Well, on that note, let's go and

38:23

get a glass of homemade

38:27

elderflower cordial which is

38:27

fermenting so we might be a bit

38:30

sozzled after we've, we've drunk it. That's great. And I think the

38:32

sun has is behind clouds now.

38:38

I think it might be a might be a

38:38

little bit cooler out there.

38:40

Thank you