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1:09

Today, we're launching a new series, the behind-the-scenes

1:11

story of a major project I've been working

1:13

on. At times, it's consumed my

1:15

whole life and even involved my kids.

1:18

So, you know, you said it would take, like, maybe

1:21

two or three years to do the

1:23

cookbook, but I thought it would take

1:26

longer. You thought it would take, but

1:28

two or three years is a very long time. Yeah,

1:30

but, like, there's a lot of stuff to

1:32

do. Like, you have to find

1:35

recipes, and you have to make

1:37

them, take pictures of it, and

1:39

you have to polish it, and also, you're doing

1:41

a lot of recipes, so it's gonna take a

1:43

long time. All

1:46

right, this is not going as well as I had hoped. The

1:49

sauce has completely cooked off and burnt. The

1:51

pan is black, and there are pieces of

1:53

pasta that are broken off and fused to

1:55

the bottom of the pan. Becky,

1:57

how would you describe how this looks? A

2:01

crime. Has

2:08

this board fall as napper foodies. it's for

2:11

eaters. I'm Dan Passman speech. We got our

2:13

so we obsess about food will have more

2:15

about people And yes, it's true. I have

2:17

written a cookbook. It's always been a dream

2:20

of mine. This one has been years in

2:22

the making and it comes out in just

2:24

two weeks or s. Or rather, this cookbook

2:26

most common question I got from friends was

2:29

actually come up with the recipes. I realize

2:31

that most people, even folks by a lot

2:33

of cookbooks don't know much about how they're

2:35

made, as I found out. neither did I

2:37

until I did. Is I had no

2:40

idea just how the painstaking, the processes,

2:42

how many thousands of tiny decisions will

2:44

be required, and how many things go

2:46

wrong. That's why today we're launching anything's

2:49

Possible a four part series about the

2:51

making of my cookbook. In this series,

2:53

I'm gonna take you inside the process

2:55

the highs and lows arrested be tested

2:58

for research, trip across Italy, agonizing decisions

3:00

over the design of the cover at

3:02

the end and never look at a

3:04

cookbook the same way again. For

3:18

you to the book though, recap. And.

3:21

Twenty Twenty One I rented a new safe

3:23

of pasta caskets early as been three years

3:25

developing it and find people to help me

3:27

manufacture and sell it. We. Did a

3:29

five part potassium the tells the story that

3:32

quest it's called mission Impossible. anything about has

3:34

been that Atlantic about his new Sydney's in

3:36

sort of the sequel to that one. But

3:38

don't worry gonna have to listen the Mission

3:40

Impossible to enjoy this one. Anyway,

3:43

casket tell he was way more successful

3:45

than I ever dreamed. It went viral,

3:47

getting media coverage across the country, Apparently

3:49

there's a new pasta it has come out

3:51

sell the like Bob I Spaghetti A Task

3:54

A Tele sold out within two hours of

3:56

being. Called us to tell

3:58

his tomboy to tell. We

4:00

can print and getting attention around the

4:02

world. You're done. Pacman threat a venue?

4:05

Let us mean and me to get

4:07

into that. Who has had to leave

4:09

husband on my. Cock customers.

4:11

escort full is limited quarter.

4:14

Cask Italian that I've been named one of

4:16

Time Magazine's best inventions and twenty twenty one

4:18

and be featured on the cover is now

4:21

in stores across the country. And

4:23

the most rewarding part. Sport. For listener

4:25

started setting me photos all over the country and

4:27

the world show me what they were making with

4:29

casket tally. I felt like people were inviting

4:31

me to their homes for dinner. But.

4:33

There was a problem. Seventy. Five

4:35

percent of the pics I got showed

4:38

casket telly with tomato sauce, meat sauce

4:40

or mack and sees a few party

4:42

animals made pesto. And. Other

4:44

a well worn classics like Carbonara and Cotchery

4:46

Pepe I was ninety five percent what I

4:49

saw. The me this

4:51

is tried to ask Utterly worthless. So

4:53

many sources and beyond casket telly. It

4:55

just made me sad that so many

4:57

people were chooses them. Such a limited

4:59

range of pasta sauces. And

5:04

a twenty twenty one of her nine

5:06

months seems pictures my inbox and on

5:08

instagram have an idea. I love the

5:10

my task a tele journey got so

5:12

many other people said nerd out apostasy

5:14

with me What if I could the

5:16

same for pasta sauces and so folks

5:18

that are so many more things they

5:20

can and should be putting on pasta.

5:22

One of our to write a cookbook

5:24

would help people break away from Poland.

5:26

Ace. After few months of

5:28

letting the idea simmer, I think I have

5:30

a cookbook concept that are worth. A

5:33

stand making some calls. My first is to

5:35

Evan Climate by Pasta. Fairy godmother and spiritual

5:37

advisor throughout my task until the journey. Haven't

5:40

ran a successful Italian restaurant in L A

5:42

for twenty five years, and she's traveled to

5:44

Italy almost every year since the seventies to

5:46

see knows Italian food. As. I

5:48

say that, haven't. There. Are so many

5:51

really great Italian pasta preparations that

5:53

a very simple. and

5:55

yet are still not well known in the

5:58

us in that's fair to say Yeah,

6:00

I mean, I think it's fair to say,

6:02

I think that if you look at cookbooks,

6:04

you find the same 50

6:07

over and over and over again. I'm

6:09

thinking there must be some amazing pasta dishes in

6:12

Italy that are unknown to many Americans that I

6:14

could highlight, right? And there are probably

6:16

others that I could bring a new perspective to put my own

6:18

spin on. I explain all this

6:20

to Evan. I'm not looking to do super

6:22

fancy and not having anybody make homemade pasta

6:24

from scratch. Just basic

6:26

things like open up a can of good

6:29

tuna and with capers and lemons or take

6:31

some fresh artichokes. So this

6:33

has all been done. So

6:36

I don't think that you would be

6:39

covering ground that hasn't been covered before.

6:42

But I also feel like maybe

6:44

people who come to a cuisine

6:46

as outsiders might

6:48

feel less beholden to

6:51

tradition. I think you're absolutely

6:53

100% wrong. Okay.

6:58

Evan says she's seen a lot of supposed

7:00

outsiders write books about Italian food. But instead

7:02

of bringing a fresh perspective, they just end

7:05

up falling in love with Italian traditions and

7:07

nostalgia. And they end up very much beholden

7:09

to those traditions. So that's something I

7:11

need to watch out for as I write this book. But

7:13

as I explained to her, Italy is only one part of

7:15

my book idea. There's a

7:17

second part of the book where I

7:20

want to expand beyond Italian food and

7:22

play with other cuisines. Like

7:24

what else can we put on pasta? Why

7:26

can't we put dal on pasta? Why can't

7:28

we make spicy chili crisp pesto? Let's

7:31

bring together all these different flavors. So that's also a big

7:33

part of the concept. What do

7:35

you think about the idea of incorporating other

7:38

cuisines, sort of sauces, stews,

7:40

and condiments and putting them on pasta?

7:42

I think you missed. You're

7:45

an explorer. People are

7:47

going to expect from you

7:49

to open the door to the unexpected. And

7:52

the way you disregard tropes

7:54

and myths. And that's

7:57

what people expect of you. But in

7:59

order for me to go beyond. those tropes and myths,

8:01

I need to learn what they are. Before you can

8:03

start doing jazz improvisation, you got another standards,

8:05

right? I barely know which end of the

8:08

saxophone to blow into. Even though I've

8:10

been hosting the sporkful for 14 years,

8:12

I literally have no professional culinary training

8:14

whatsoever. So I'm going to

8:17

do some research on Italian food, what cookbooks are

8:19

already out there, what seems ripe for adding my

8:21

own twist. And this is where Evan

8:23

can help me. You know what I'm going to do is

8:25

I'm going to give you a list of

8:28

cookbooks from different regions

8:31

that have been written in English

8:33

that I think were

8:36

written by real people with no

8:39

agenda but to preserve these recipes.

8:41

Okay. Am I allowed to

8:43

tinker with those at all? What do you mean? Well,

8:46

like what if I want to serve one of the

8:48

traditional sauces but with a shape that I think would

8:50

be better? Well, that's your brand. Instead

8:52

of showing the traditional recipe and

8:54

then a variation for something different,

8:57

you will start with the Dan

8:59

Paschman weirdness and then you'll

9:01

explain the traditional one. Right.

9:04

So I can be like, listen, usually

9:06

they do linguine with white clam sauce,

9:08

but linguine is trash. No

9:11

one should ever eat it.

9:13

And you should have my

9:15

father with white clam sauce

9:17

instead. Sounds like I already sold one

9:19

copy. Oh, yeah. Thank

9:26

you, Evan, my pasta fairy godmother. You're always there

9:29

for me. I mean, of course now I'm totally

9:31

curious. Do you want to contribute a recipe to

9:33

the cookbook? I don't know. I

9:35

need to think about it. I definitely want

9:37

acknowledgement. Oh, you got it. You will be

9:39

acknowledged. Don't worry. Coming

9:46

out of this conversation, the basic question seems to

9:48

be, do I know enough about pasta sauces to

9:50

be able to come up with any interesting ones?

9:54

I call up my mom hoping she'll have some words of wisdom.

9:56

A reaction to my book concept. If

9:59

you have a look at the... The preparation

10:01

for the New York Times. the

10:03

other senses yeah I mean does

10:05

it they said noodles with showed

10:07

first or there's us cauliflower just

10:09

with cottage cheese and and lemon

10:12

zest. era as like a lot

10:14

of different. Kinds of

10:16

pasta preparations to do appear.

10:20

Season. As is the band, the mountains and.

10:23

Now. As it gets as can

10:25

be as it sounds obvious. Dad:

10:27

so lousy. Dozens of graphic. Images

10:31

but thanks to the moon Confidence. As.

10:34

If you put the does remind me

10:36

that somebody people who. Saw

10:39

you on the Today show Everybody

10:41

wants me to Mushroom ragu considered

10:44

sacred. Putting mushrooms on postulates Ss

10:46

Monsanto you. Use. Is validated

10:48

the chances of my boots but

10:50

i was ssl a book though

10:52

is so a pamphlet but not

10:54

necessarily a book. That.

10:57

Is more skepticism and as expensive. My

10:59

mom. But. It occurs to

11:01

me that these are the same doubts I

11:03

heard when I set out to events as

11:05

could tell me it's all been done. Nothing

11:07

new that. Personally, I

11:10

feed off the don't. Play. Know

11:12

and I'm and Do. I'm in make this.

11:18

Because of the success of has been telling

11:20

support for long history I'm able to get

11:22

a literary agents who helped me read a

11:25

book proposals it into the simple reading list

11:27

to propose that a beast. But we we

11:29

hit a bump. The first published I go

11:31

to the Simon and Schuster see published a

11:33

book I wrote ten years ago called eat

11:36

More Better because I put in do very

11:38

well. The editor this is the higher ups

11:40

won't approve a solid off. Basically they're not

11:42

willing to take another chance Something's other publishers

11:44

didn't have a front row seat to my

11:47

literary failure so. some of them to

11:49

make good offers a sign on with william

11:51

morrow part of harper collins one of the

11:53

be publicist in spring twenty twenty two i'm

11:55

ready to actually start writing my cookbook this

11:58

is one smallest I have

12:00

lots of opinions about what I like and don't like

12:02

to eat, and I often think about the minutiae of

12:04

the eating experience. I've never written

12:06

and published a single real recipe in

12:08

my life. So I'm

12:10

going to need some help. Fortunately, there

12:13

are people who specialize in providing the exact

12:15

kind of help I'm looking for, and they

12:17

are called recipe developers. Now

12:19

some cookbook authors are themselves recipe developers,

12:22

so they write all the recipes for

12:24

their books. In other

12:26

cases, the author is bringing their vision

12:28

and perspective, but collaborating with developers to

12:30

turn those ideas into workable recipes. A

12:33

lot of the cookbook authors we've interviewed here on the

12:35

show are recipe developers. One

12:37

of the first people I get connected to is Rebecca

12:39

Marsters. Have you ever worked in a restaurant? Not

12:42

back of house. I've worked service, but that

12:44

was never my vision. I

12:46

always knew that that was not the environment for me. Why?

12:50

Just too high pressure. They say, you know,

12:52

it's too hot to get out of the kitchen, and I just

12:54

never went in there because it's going to be too hot

12:57

for me. I'm much more

12:59

of a cerebral, precise,

13:02

I was more interested in the writing and the kind

13:05

of the, I don't know, the nerdy stuff. You know, I'm not

13:07

that like fly by the hip kind

13:09

of cook. I've always been there. You're less interested

13:11

in like, let's raid the pantry and throw stuff

13:13

in a pan and light it on fire. And

13:16

you're much more like, I want a lot

13:18

of spreadsheets. I'm much more like, this

13:20

is a dish that I could plan to make

13:22

two weeks from now. Let me put together a

13:24

prep list and research which wine I should serve

13:26

with it. Rebecca did go to culinary

13:28

school at Johnson and Wales before she ended up

13:30

in media. For many years, she

13:32

was a test cook and editor at America's

13:35

Test Kitchen, which is famous for their painstaking

13:37

approach to recipe development. Over

13:39

the years, Rebecca has seen every way a recipe

13:41

can go wrong for a home cook, because

13:43

the part of recipe writing that's most stressful

13:46

is that your one recipe is going to

13:48

be used by people with different levels of

13:50

cooking experience in different kitchens with different equipment.

13:53

I know that the way I am as an asset

13:55

when it comes to making recipes

13:57

foolproof, because my main goal is I

13:59

don't want somebody to fail at home and

14:01

be discouraged and I want people to have

14:03

confidence in cooking and give them the tools

14:05

to do that. As soon as

14:08

Rebecca and I get in touch she's sending me

14:10

long emails with ideas and questions. In

14:12

one email she writes, apologies if I threw too

14:14

much at you at once, I'm a details person.

14:17

And I was like, you're hired. Because

14:19

I too am a details person. Rebecca

14:22

will not be a recipe developer though.

14:24

She'll be the book's recipe editor. Basically

14:26

like the team captain. So

14:28

refine and cross-test every recipe that the

14:30

developers and I come up with. A

14:32

final line of defense against kitchen disaster.

14:35

She'll also create a style guide for the book which will be

14:37

very important because I'm really working

14:39

with multiple developers. Literally a lot of

14:41

cooks in the kitchen. But I

14:43

need all the recipes to be written the same way.

14:45

So the book is consistent. As Rebecca

14:48

starts drafting the style guide it

14:50

forces me to consider approximately one

14:52

million details I had never considered

14:54

before. For example, when I'm

14:56

writing a recipe I am a definitely

14:58

an advocate for writing out

15:01

the whole word teaspoon or the whole

15:03

word tablespoon. Rebecca says she's seen a

15:05

lot of people who misread TSP or

15:07

TBSP because they look so similar at

15:09

a glance and then it ruins their

15:11

recipes. So okay fine we'll write out

15:14

teaspoon and tablespoon. One small

15:16

detail resolved. One more

15:18

important thing Rebecca we got to figure out

15:20

what kind of salt are we going to

15:22

use? That's the big question huh? It's the

15:24

big question. It's you know people

15:27

have strong feelings about salt for

15:30

good reasons. I mean first

15:33

and foremost different types of salt

15:35

have different levels of saltiness. So

15:38

one teaspoon of one type of salt you

15:41

wouldn't be adding as much salt as you would with a

15:43

teaspoon of a different type of salt. Yes correct and a

15:45

lot of that is about grain

15:47

size right? If you think about like filling

15:49

the jar with golf balls and

15:51

then filling it with marbles and then filling it

15:54

with sand right? The grain size makes a difference.

15:56

You can fit more granules of table salt into

15:58

a teaspoon. than

16:00

you can a larger grain. And

16:03

it's not just grain size that affects saltiness.

16:05

It's also shape. Some salt crystal shapes have

16:07

more surface area than others. So more of

16:09

the salt lands on your tongue and you

16:11

register it the saltier. Most recipes

16:14

I see these days call for kosher

16:16

salt, but there are two totally different

16:18

brands of kosher salt out there, Morton

16:20

and Diamond Crystal. And

16:23

Morton is almost twice as salty as

16:25

Diamond Crystal. So if you see

16:27

a recipe that just calls for kosher salt and you

16:29

use a different brand than the one the recipe writer

16:31

had in mind, your dish will come

16:33

out either too salty or too bland. This

16:36

issue could make you think every recipe in

16:38

my cookbook sucks. And

16:40

in the food world, Morton versus

16:42

Diamond Crystal is one of the great

16:44

feuds of all time. It's Yankees

16:46

versus Red Sox, Montagues versus Capulets, people

16:49

who slice their sandwiches in half diagonally

16:51

versus serial killers. And

16:53

as I tell Rebecca, I use

16:56

Diamond Crystal salt at home between those

16:58

two. And I use Morton salt

17:00

at home. Oh. I

17:03

just feel like Diamond Crystal, I don't get

17:05

as even of a sprinkle when I use

17:07

it. Morton feels right to me when

17:09

I pick up a pinch of salt. I don't have any

17:11

sprinkling issues. Like you may just be sprinkling wrong, Rebecca. That's

17:13

also the thing you can think of. That's true. I don't

17:16

know. Maybe you can send a video of you sprinkling it

17:18

out. Do they have

17:20

a salt sprinkling course at Johnson and Wales? Maybe you

17:22

were absent that day. Maybe I missed that day. I'm

17:24

a simply hooky. Morton might

17:26

feel right to Rebecca, but

17:28

Diamond Crystal feels right to me. I also agree with

17:31

Sameen Nasserat, chef and author of Salt,

17:33

Fat, Acid, Heat, who swears by Diamond Crystal because it dissolves

17:35

faster, which reduces the risk of over

17:37

salted. And because Diamond Crystal is

17:39

less salty, you can use more of it. So it's easier to

17:41

coat your food evenly. Problem

17:43

is Morton is much more widely available in

17:46

grocery stores than Diamond Crystal. And

17:49

I'm very worried about calling for a salt that many

17:51

people can't get, Then

17:53

you have to convert your measurements, which would force you to

17:55

do math, which is the worst thing you can do. Worse

18:00

than a good happens. Coming.

18:02

Up I involve hundreds more people in

18:04

this decision about grains of salt. And

18:07

I start working as some recipes stick

18:09

around. Tokyo

18:16

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near you. Found wherever Candy assault. Welcome

21:06

after the Sport for I'm Dan Pacman and

21:08

for listen to Journey of Thinking or that

21:10

the see some photos and videos from all

21:12

that Well good news. I'll be sharing photos

21:15

and videos on my Instagram throughout the series.

21:17

Please make sued said that out. Follow me

21:19

there at the Sport. Okay I found my

21:21

team captain Rebecca but I still need to

21:24

assemble the rest of my group of recipe

21:26

developers Folks are people not just carry out

21:28

my vision that be my collaborators. I need

21:30

to find people who are not only talented

21:33

but also bring different specialties the projects so.

21:35

I'm assembling a squad of superheroes. The most

21:37

difficult mission of our allies are famous for.

21:39

My life for them. This is what they

21:41

did. Anyways, after a couple

21:43

months of scouring food media for the

21:45

best and brightest, have my team in

21:48

place in June. Twenty Twenty two, the

21:50

whole group meets or resume. Ask

21:52

the most introduce themselves and their specialty and

21:54

to pick a superior on a. First.

21:57

up we have awesome loopy to develop recipes for

21:59

the south asians company Diaspora Co.

22:01

My name would be the

22:04

Saucy Spiced Rice. A

22:06

lot of my recipes are going to lean

22:08

towards the interesting ways to

22:11

use spices. Asha Lupi,

22:13

Saucy Spiced Rice. Then there's

22:15

Katie Laird who has lived and cooked

22:17

professionally in Italy. In my heart of

22:19

hearts I am a really old Italian

22:21

grandma. So I think I'm

22:23

like super nona. I mean the funny thing is I'm

22:26

not actually Italian at all and I'm 38

22:28

but I think what I bring is

22:31

just kind of that old school sensibility.

22:34

Katie Laird, super nona.

22:36

Then there's James Park who was on the sporkful last

22:39

fall talking about his Chili Crisp cookbook. James'

22:41

specialty for my cookbook. Taking really

22:44

delicious dishes and to just

22:46

like postify it. I

22:49

really enjoy kind of translating

22:51

some of my favorite dishes

22:53

that I eat globally and

22:56

just kind of interpret it into

22:58

pasta. So I will be the

23:00

pasta translator. James Park, pasta translator.

23:03

We've also got Darnell Reed, chef and owner

23:06

of Luella's Southern Kitchen in Chicago. I'm

23:08

definitely gonna bring a lot of, I

23:10

would say American but definitely Southern American.

23:13

So I'll be the Southern soul guy.

23:15

We decide that Darnell is the soul

23:17

food sauce boss. And

23:20

finally we have Irene Yu. I don't know if anyone's seen

23:22

Oceans 11 or 12 or 13 but I'll be the

23:26

Brad Pitt character who is

23:29

always standing in the corner eating. My

23:31

specialty is really like connecting like all

23:33

the different comfort food aspects of different

23:35

cultures. That's Irene Yu, comfort food Brad

23:37

Pitt. Along with Captain Rebecca

23:40

our team is in place. Now

23:42

we have a huge decision to make. None

23:44

of these folks can put a pot on the stove

23:47

or a pen to paper until we know what kind

23:49

of kosher salt we're using. As I said I

23:52

typically use diamond crystal at home but Morton

23:54

is in more stores around the country. So I

23:56

decided to try out Morton for myself. Let's

23:58

just pour it out in a little bowl here. And

24:02

that is coarse. Let's

24:05

look at it next to the diamond crystal. The

24:08

Morton almost feels like sprinkles. It feels

24:10

weird. It feels pebbly. The Morton

24:12

to me looks like the salt you put on your

24:14

driveway when it snows. I tried sauteing

24:16

some mushrooms with it. I just added

24:19

the Morton salt and it like bounces.

24:21

It's the pieces that landed

24:23

on the cast iron pan and bounced up. I

24:26

don't want my salt bouncing around. It's supposed

24:28

to land on the food and stay there. I

24:31

really want to go with diamond crystal. But

24:33

as I say to my wife Janie after dinner, I'm having

24:35

a crisis of confidence. If

24:40

more people can get Morton and

24:42

that's more standard then maybe I should just go with that.

24:45

Is that which one is stronger? Morton. But

24:50

I like diamond crystal personally. It's like the way it feels in

24:52

your hand. It doesn't matter what it

24:54

feels like in your hand. What feels better? What

24:56

makes the recipe better? Well, it doesn't matter. It

24:59

doesn't matter what it feels like in your hand.

25:02

I'm going to go consult someone else. I love you but

25:04

not for this. I

25:09

decided to do an Instagram poll to consult

25:11

with you, Sporkful listeners. The

25:13

next day, the poll results are in. I

25:16

got DMs from a number of

25:19

established cookbook authors telling me how

25:21

they had agonized over this exact

25:24

decision. This is a big

25:26

issue that really keeps cookbook authors

25:28

up at night because cookbook authors

25:30

want the readers to succeed when

25:32

they make the recipes. On

25:35

Instagram, 68% for

25:37

diamond crystal. I made

25:39

the decision for my cookbook, I'm

25:41

going with diamond crystal. So

25:44

it's diamond crystal, final answer. And

25:46

in fact, in the time after I would make

25:48

that decision, the company that produces diamond crystal would

25:51

invest in a glow up for the packaging and

25:53

much wider distribution. So it's actually in a lot

25:55

more stores across the country now. Anyway,

25:57

who's in diamond crystal is my first.

26:00

big decision in this book. And

26:02

while, yes, I did consult my family,

26:04

my cookbook team, and thousands of people

26:06

on social media, in the end, I went

26:08

with my gut. I chose the salt I

26:10

like better, but I use my own kitchen. But

26:13

I'm plagued by the feeling that that's not how I

26:15

should be making these decisions, because

26:17

I'm not a chef or recipe

26:19

developer. So what do I know? Why

26:22

should anyone listen to me? These

26:26

feelings persist as I try to come up with a list

26:28

of recipes for the team and me to start working on.

26:31

I ask all the developers to send me a

26:33

bunch of ideas for pasta dishes. I also do

26:35

my own research. I'm reading through the old Italian

26:37

cookbooks that Evan Kliman told me to look into

26:39

looking for inspiration. And I'm listing pasta

26:41

dishes I already cook at home like my pesto

26:43

baked ziti and mac and dal. I

26:46

take all these options and select about 20 recipes to

26:48

get us started. I want to get a feel for

26:50

the process, see what's working before I pick more. As

26:53

I find out, developing even one recipe

26:55

has many steps. Here's how it goes.

26:58

Step one, the recipe developer cooks the

27:00

dish several times, tweaking as they go, until

27:02

they think it's good. Step

27:04

two, I cook it, make note

27:07

of my questions and suggested changes. If there are big

27:09

changes, the developer may make it one or two more

27:11

times, then I'll make it again to be sure I'm

27:13

happy with it. Step three, the recipe

27:16

goes to Captain Rebecca for the final

27:18

test. If it passes, it's done. The

27:22

first developer to start sending recipes in is

27:24

Katie, aka Super Nona. My daughter Emily and

27:26

I test her new and improved version of

27:28

my pesto baked ziti. Maybe just

27:31

a little more grated parmesan cheese, I think. Yes,

27:33

put more as much as you need. You can dump

27:35

the entire thing in there if you need to. All

27:37

right, I will. I gotta measure it though. Why don't you

27:39

measure it? You just dump the entire thing. Because we gotta

27:42

keep track of exactly what I'm doing so I can put

27:44

the recipe in the book. All right, one more half cup.

27:46

I also start getting recipes from Asha, aka the saucy spicetress.

27:48

I try out spaghettoni a la todka. Todka is

27:51

the term for the Indian technique of cooking whole

27:53

spices in fat to coax out a ton of

27:55

flavor. Thank you, come here. I made a second

27:57

batch of this. So

28:01

the first one was good, very good, but to me

28:03

it had a little bit of like a burnt taste

28:05

to it. Yeah, I was gonna say that too, but I didn't want to

28:07

say that because I thought you would feel bad. Well thanks.

28:09

But listen, going forward, we're recipe testing here, so

28:11

if something isn't good, you gotta tell me because

28:13

this is the time. Well it was good, it was

28:16

just that one thing. Right, so let's see.

28:18

Try this. This is the same recipe,

28:20

just very small changes to get

28:22

rid of that flavor and to bring other flavors forward. Tell

28:25

me what you think. It's

28:27

so good. So that one's a

28:30

winner. Another success? Kachiyo Yooova. It's

28:32

cheese and egg, like a meatless carbonara

28:34

or super silky mac and cheese that

28:36

you can make in about 20 minutes.

28:39

It's so beautiful. It's so

28:42

good. But not everything's a

28:44

hit. There's a slow cooked sirloin ragu,

28:46

basically an upscale tomato based meat sauce.

28:49

It's good, I just don't know that I would want to make

28:51

it again. Look, everyone makes

28:53

a tomato based sauce,

28:55

so this isn't like

28:58

a new thing for a lot of people. Alright,

29:02

decision made. This recipe doesn't make

29:04

it. Just got cut. You're

29:06

dead to us. You're dead to us, sirloin ragu.

29:09

I would make this recipe so that's selfish of

29:12

you to just assume what other people would

29:14

want. You're gonna make this recipe

29:16

that takes an hour and 45 minutes? You wouldn't even put

29:18

away your socks. Burn. After

29:22

that sirloin ragu, I make a key decision.

29:25

I will not put any tomato sauce recipes

29:27

in my cookbook unless they're really different from

29:30

anything I've had before. For any

29:32

dish where you just need a basic tomato sauce, I'm gonna tell

29:34

people to use jarred sauces. There's so many good ones out there.

29:36

Why do you need to make one from scratch? I'm

29:39

even gonna make a jarred tomato sauce decision tree full

29:41

of things you can add to a jar of sauce

29:43

to take it to another level. I'm

29:46

very pleased with all this, but my family's already

29:48

pushing me to tackle bigger issues. What

29:50

are you gonna name your cookbook? Like wasn't

29:52

it like More Than Meat Sauce or Beyond

29:55

Bolognese or something? Those are two of

29:57

the working titles, More Than Meat Sauce Beyond Bolognese,

29:59

but my own is... editor Cassie she

30:02

said she doesn't like book titles that tell you what the book

30:04

is not I think

30:06

that's kind of a good thought

30:09

I have another working title that somebody think listen ready

30:13

put it on pasta I mean

30:17

do you want it to be silly or serious I

30:20

want it to be accessible Jane's

30:28

got some pictures for the title of the book past

30:31

past abilities yeah

30:36

feeling saucy oh

30:39

what do you read you're reasoning off your phone what are you looking at

30:42

some like pasta pie that's Google's

30:44

intellectual property how about feeling

30:47

kind of a little bit but if

30:49

we're going to do

30:52

a pun why don't we

31:00

call the book Mission Impossible Mission

31:03

Impossible the quest for new and different

31:05

pasta vibrations taken by

31:07

me yeah exactly

31:10

what something new people sound like you're out

31:12

of ideas ouch we'll

31:15

put a pin in the title for now a few

31:18

weeks into recipe testing things are going great

31:20

I'm in the car on my way to

31:22

the store to pick up another box giant

31:24

box of diamond crystal kosher salt because I'm

31:27

out I'll see you more garlic and I

31:29

was just thinking about the fact that I

31:31

am having so much fun tested

31:33

all these recipes it's a lot

31:36

to manage time wise life and all that other jobs

31:38

and things but like I do

31:40

love cooking I don't cook as often as

31:42

I would like because I'm busy working

31:46

and now when I have to cook for

31:48

work it's kind of like I

31:51

guess maybe it like allows me to justify it

31:53

in my head like oh you have you should

31:55

stop your meetings at three o'clock today because you

31:57

have to cook for work And it's

31:59

also. Pushing me to. Cook

32:02

with ingredients that I have to do

32:04

before techniques that haven't used before. All

32:07

that being said on my six recipes. So

32:13

a sea of i still feel this way and six months.

32:20

Summon up after more like six weeks

32:22

and start having less. Once again he

32:24

wonders with are all this is worthless,

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Stick around. Time

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to cook up some advertisement.

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32:55

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33:23

or in the showroom but is it didn't

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look nice in your house when they only

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the guess with as the Crate and Barrel

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33:46

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33:48

new collared shirt in five years. I mean,

33:50

every certain there was either. really

33:53

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33:55

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33:57

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recently discovered a new cut of steak that

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I am in love with. It's called the

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34:52

thicker than a flank steak. It is long and

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35:18

I've heard of rockfish. I had just never bought it

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code Sporkful120. Welcome

35:52

back. Welcome back to the show. I

35:54

want to tell you about a couple of recent Sporkful

35:56

episodes that I think you're going to really enjoy. In

35:58

February, we talked with a professor who consults with restaurants.

36:00

on how to design the dining room to maximize profit.

36:03

We see her in action at an Indian restaurant in

36:05

Queens, and they make changes based on her suggestions. But

36:07

does it increase profit? We find

36:09

out. In another episode, I talk with comedian Gary

36:12

Gullman about how he uses food in his act.

36:14

And in our feed, we also have all

36:17

four episodes of our new podcast, Deep Dish

36:19

with Sola and Ham, which shares deep dives

36:21

into the surprising stories behind a bunch of

36:23

dishes. From a bagel baker union's battles with

36:25

the mob, to a police investigation that starts

36:27

with two dead bodies and a trunk full

36:29

of tamales. You can find all those

36:31

episodes and more in our feed. And please make

36:33

sure you hit follow or subscribe or whatever it

36:35

is in your podcasting app so you never miss

36:37

an episode. Thanks. Okay,

36:40

back to the show. A

36:43

month into the testing process, we're still humming through the

36:45

first batch of recipes. But there are

36:47

a few that Supernona, Katie, and I aren't sure

36:49

about. So we decided to be more efficient if

36:51

we cook them together in person and discuss. In

36:54

July, 2022, on a trip to visit

36:56

her sister in nearby Queens, Katie comes

36:59

over to my house to cook with me. Yes.

37:02

I won't take it personally that you brought your own pan. Okay,

37:05

this is very specific. I actually, I

37:07

bought this pan for this cookbook. Katie

37:10

and I have two recipes in our agenda today.

37:12

They're both dishes she's already done some testing on.

37:14

So we're not starting from scratch. First,

37:16

fettuccine a lubriaco, which means drunken

37:19

fettuccine. That's because instead of boiling

37:21

the pasta in water, you boil

37:23

it in red wine. That

37:25

way it absorbs the flavor, but also the color.

37:27

And at the end, you get these deep purple

37:29

noodles that are unlike any pasta I've ever seen.

37:32

This dish takes a lot of my boxes.

37:34

It's a classic Italian pasta dish, but it's

37:36

not well known outside of Italy. It's easy

37:39

to make and simple enough that it's sort

37:41

of a partially blank canvas. It offers Katie

37:43

and me opportunities to make tweaks or dare

37:45

I say, improvements. And

37:48

Katie thinks the traditional method could use some

37:50

help. Now, a lot of

37:52

the complaints about this dish

37:54

that I've heard from people is that,

37:57

well, I used a whole bottle of wine. a

38:00

drink and I don't really taste

38:02

it in there. So I've tried

38:04

to brainstorm a few

38:06

ways to pump this dish up

38:08

with some flavor. In previous

38:11

tests, Katie cooked the pasta in undiluted

38:13

red wine, but the result was too

38:15

bitter. So in another test at

38:17

home, she tried half water, half wine. That

38:19

turned out a little bland. This time, she's

38:22

basically splitting the difference. The

38:24

wine. As we finish

38:26

making the ubriaco, Janie walks into the kitchen.

38:30

Katie sets out the pinkish purple pasta for us

38:32

to try. If

38:35

I didn't smell the wine, like, I

38:37

don't know that I would even know what the flavor

38:39

is. There we go. You know,

38:42

that's a really that's the feedback

38:44

about this dish a lot. I think part

38:46

of my, you know, thought

38:48

about this dish is, is it more

38:51

of a presentation piece, you

38:53

know, because it has such a dramatic

38:55

look, or it doesn't really

38:57

hit some flavor that we think people will

38:59

love. Right. So it sounds to me like

39:01

both of you are sort of saying like

39:03

maybe we shouldn't be in the book. Yes,

39:06

for my for my personal palate, maybe

39:09

it shouldn't be in the book. This gets

39:11

to the heart of a big issue for me, which

39:13

was also a big issue with Cascatelli. I

39:15

said throughout that process, I don't want a

39:18

gimmick. I didn't want to just make a

39:20

pasta shape that would get a lot of

39:22

likes on Instagram. I wanted it to be

39:24

legitimately amazing to eat. With Ubriaco,

39:26

it looks so striking the photo of the

39:28

purple noodles alone would probably sell cookbooks. And

39:30

I can certainly imagine getting pressed for the

39:33

book through a very clickbaity article about the

39:35

recipe with a headline like this little known

39:37

pasta dish has an entire bottle of red

39:39

wine in it. But I

39:41

don't want gimmicks. As I

39:44

tell Katie and Janie, I want sauces that I

39:46

can't stop scraping out of the pot that I

39:48

wake up the next morning wanting to make and

39:50

eat again. Like I

39:52

don't know that this rises to that standard. I'm leaning

39:54

towards saying we should cut it. But I'll put the

39:56

leftovers in the fridge and see if I'm craving it

39:58

tomorrow morning. Oh, you won't. I promise you, I

40:01

promise you you won't. All

40:03

right. Now it's time

40:05

to move on to our second dish of the

40:07

day. And I think the journey of this dish

40:10

in particular will give you a real sense of

40:12

where recipes actually come from. It's

40:14

cavatelli with artichokes and preserved lemon.

40:18

Cavatelli is kind of shaped like a little canoe. Now

40:20

this idea started with one of the classic

40:22

Italian cookbooks Evan assigned to me. It had

40:24

a pasta with artichokes and lemon, which sounded

40:27

fantastic. When I brought it to

40:29

my team, recipe developer Asha Lupi, aka the

40:31

Saucy Spiciest, suggested a tweak. How

40:33

about instead of just lemon juice, we used preserved

40:35

lemon. It's not a common ingredient

40:37

in Italian cooking. You find it more in

40:39

North Africa than in Middle Eastern cuisine. But

40:41

I love it. It's salty and savory and

40:43

very lemony. I was immediately sold on the

40:45

concept. Since it was rooted in

40:48

an Italian classic, I assigned it to Katie, who got

40:50

to work. After four trials, she

40:52

had a recipe where the artichokes were coated

40:54

in cornstarch and fried, making them golden brown

40:56

and crispy. When I tested it, I loved

40:58

the flavors. And I was so pleased that

41:00

I sent it ahead to Captain Rebecca for

41:02

a final test. We declared it done. But

41:05

then I wanted to eat it again. So I made

41:07

it again. And doubts started to creep

41:10

in. First, some people are

41:12

intimidated by deep frying, and others avoid it

41:14

for health reasons. Second, the

41:16

artichokes that weren't eaten right away lost

41:18

their crisp, which cancels out the benefits

41:20

of frying. Third, how

41:22

I did more artichokes. During

41:25

one of the Sporkful team's weekly check-ins, we got

41:27

to talking about artichokes, as we do. And

41:30

producer Andrei Sohara mentioned that you can take

41:32

canned artichokes, drain them, pat them dry, toss

41:34

them in olive oil, and roast them on

41:36

a sheet pan until crispy. At

41:39

my house, Katie and I prepared to try this

41:41

method with the artichoke and preserved lemon dish. This

41:44

is test number eight. So

41:47

we got the canned artichokes. They have been drained,

41:50

patted dry, quartered, patted dry

41:52

some more. Now

41:55

I'll say right off the bat, I don't think that these are

41:57

going to end up as crispy as the fried ones. No. I

42:00

think that maybe that's okay.

42:02

Maybe we change the title of the

42:04

recipe. Right now we're calling it crispy

42:06

artichokes, but roasted artichokes

42:08

sounds pretty darn nice too. Yeah, and I

42:10

mean let's face it, preserved lemon are the real star

42:13

of this dish either way. I'm gonna

42:15

make a couple notes on what we did here. As

42:17

we go to put the artichokes in the oven, Katie and

42:19

I have a major realization. Now that we're

42:22

not frying the artichokes, we can add more of it. With

42:25

frying, we were constrained by the size of the

42:27

pan, and I didn't want to make people fry

42:29

in batches, that's annoying. But with the roasting method,

42:31

you can fit a third can of artichokes in

42:33

a single sheet pan. This

42:35

could be huge. Three

42:37

cans of artichokes. We're going up to

42:39

three. This

42:43

is good because I love artichokes. I do too.

42:45

We're making your dreams come true. Once

42:48

the artichokes are done, we assemble

42:50

the dish. Add in olive oil,

42:52

garlic, capers, pecorino, the artichokes, and

42:54

that crucial preserved lemon. And

42:56

we've actually made one more tweak. In earlier versions,

42:58

we used half a preserved lemon, but this time,

43:00

we're going for a whole one. Wow,

43:03

it's beautiful. I mean, the color is really,

43:05

really beautiful here. Janie joins us again for

43:07

the taste test. This one is

43:09

so good every single time. Is

43:13

it walking a salty line right

43:15

now? It is too salty? I'm

43:19

not a fan of this preserved lemon. Like, when I get

43:21

a bite of it, it's like, oh, my God. I

43:24

will say maybe a whole lemon might

43:27

be a little aggressive. I think you're right. But

43:31

I think a half wasn't enough. Exactly. So where

43:33

did that leave us? Like, every three quarters? If

43:35

there was some number between a half and a

43:38

whole. You found me! Of

43:40

course, to confirm, three quarters of a preserved lemon

43:42

works, Katie will have to test the recipe again when

43:45

she gets home. Once she is happy

43:47

with it, I'm gonna wanna cook it one more time

43:49

to be sure it's right. Then it'll go back to

43:51

Captain Rebecca for a final, final test. So

43:53

with test number eight, we've made progress. But

43:55

it's still far from done. Katie

43:57

doesn't seem phased. I have tested.

44:00

the recipe 100 times before. Whoa.

44:05

But no, I think that the

44:07

value in a cookbook over

44:10

getting free recipes on the internet, which I'm

44:12

not trying to knock that out because I

44:15

write those too, but is knowing

44:17

that these recipes have really been

44:19

vetted and that it's been a

44:21

lot of different sets of hands. So

44:24

no, I don't think nine times is. I

44:26

mean, I'd be happy to keep going on this, you know? Jamie,

44:32

what are your thoughts? How does this whole process? It seems like

44:34

so much work. I'm actually like, are

44:36

you really want to do this cookbook? It

44:42

is honestly, I mean, we're still only

44:44

maybe 25% of the way into the process. It's

44:48

more work. How many recipes do you want to

44:50

have? I'm required by my book contract

44:52

to have 75 to 100 recipes. I'm

44:57

like, I need a nap. There's

45:01

just a lot of recipes already out there.

45:05

This sounds familiar. That's

45:07

what I said about the pasta. How

45:10

are you doing? How are

45:13

you making a new shape? Well, the point

45:15

now is Jamie doesn't doubt me. I feel like I'm

45:17

on the wrong path. I've

45:22

definitely done everything you've done. I

45:29

don't know anything. Truth

45:33

goes out. I don't really think

45:35

that is. By

45:42

the time we finished washing dishes and Katie

45:44

leaves, it's late afternoon. Now what

45:46

do we have to show for a day's work? We

45:49

spent half the day on Ubriaco and then decided to cut it from the

45:51

book. The other half of the day

45:53

we spent reworking a dish we thought we'd already finished.

45:55

And now it's still not done. I

45:57

do love the artichoke and preserved lemon one even more.

46:00

I mean, it is so, so good. But

46:02

still, it doesn't exactly feel like

46:04

we accomplished much. Janie's out

46:07

doing errands, also reflecting on what she saw in

46:09

the kitchen earlier. We might have been

46:11

laughing during our taste tests, but when we talk on

46:13

the phone, it's feeling less funny. I

46:17

saw, like, how much work it

46:19

is for one recipe. I had to do this, like, 7,500 times,

46:21

and... You

46:24

know, it was so amazing with the pasta. Like, you put

46:26

in all that work, and it actually was successful, but, like...

46:29

I just feel like books... Like,

46:31

you're putting all this work in, and then... Like,

46:34

what is the book, you know, it doesn't sell, and... You

46:38

are a great storyteller, and you're a great

46:40

writer, and you're very smart, but, like... You

46:43

even say you're not a chef. Um...

46:47

I mean... Look, I feel sort

46:50

of imposter syndrome myself about the fact

46:52

that I'm not a chef. But

46:54

that's why I hired all these super-talented

46:56

recipe developers. Yeah. I

47:00

don't know. I think I just... It

47:03

just seemed like a lot... Like,

47:06

to come up with all these different dishes. Um...

47:11

But I want to

47:13

be more positive. Ha ha ha ha! You're

47:18

turning over a new leaf? Yeah. As

47:22

much as I'm trying to project confidence, the truth

47:25

is that the questions Janie's asking are the same

47:27

questions I've been asking myself, which

47:29

can really all be summed up in one big question.

47:32

Why am I doing this in the first place? I

47:35

guess, if I can do it well, it might take

47:37

care of that chip on my shoulder about being a

47:39

food podcast host with no culinary training. And

47:42

I am very excited about the concept of this book.

47:44

I can't wait to share these recipes with people. But

47:47

most of all, I think what's driving me is that

47:49

I just want to prove to myself that I can

47:51

write a great book. Like

47:53

I said, I wrote a book 10 years ago

47:55

called Eat More Better. It wasn't a cookbook, more

47:57

just my opinions about food and eating. It

48:00

had some parts I still love, but I

48:02

never really figured out how to put my weird

48:05

food theories into a book in a way that

48:07

connected with people. I still remember

48:09

going to my local bookstore months after it came out

48:11

and seeing copies of it in the discount bin. Now,

48:14

a decade later and more experienced, I got

48:16

another chance to see if I can write

48:18

a book that matches my ambitions. As

48:21

I say to Janie, Like as much

48:23

as it's a lot of work, it's also exciting to

48:25

have a new creative challenge to push myself to do

48:27

something that I haven't done before. This

48:29

is my second book and my first book

48:32

nobody bought. And if no one buys this

48:34

book, I'm not going to get a third shot. So

48:37

it just feels like I got one more shot

48:39

to write a successful book, you know? Yeah.

48:44

So I want to make a cookbook and Janie wants

48:46

to be more positive. You both

48:48

got a lot of work to do. Coming

48:53

up in part two of Anything's Possible, I begin

48:55

work on the next batch of recipes, which

48:57

requires a research trip to Italy in

48:59

search of the country's most obscure pasta

49:02

dishes. Although people even in Italy don't

49:04

know about it. People must know about

49:06

it. Then later,

49:08

as our series continues, the recipe developers

49:10

and I test and retest dozens more

49:12

dishes. And my family and I

49:14

all reach our breaking point. I

49:16

got to be honest, I

49:18

think I'm getting tired of eating pasta. We're

49:21

like, oh, wait, you can't. Oh,

49:24

wait, you can't. And you never

49:26

see us a problem. Honestly, it never

49:28

ends. Can you just

49:30

stop? Oh, wait, you can't. Don't

49:32

think I accomplished nothing. Yeah,

49:34

I'm tired of all the cookbooks. If

49:39

you're eager for part two of Anything's Possible, there's

49:42

no need to wait. It's up right now in

49:44

the Sporkful's podcast feed to start listening. And if

49:46

you haven't already, please be sure to follow or

49:48

subscribe to the Sporkful in your podcasting app. You

49:50

can do it right now while you're listening. Also,

49:53

if you want to see photos and videos of all the

49:55

ups and downs of this journey, I'll be sharing those on

49:57

my Instagram. Follow me there at the Sporkful. And

50:01

remember, Anything's Possible comes out March 19th, but

50:03

you can pre-order it right now wherever books

50:05

are sold. If you pre-order it, you can

50:08

get an invite to a private Zoom cooking

50:10

class I'm leading. You can even pre-order a

50:12

signed copy. Get all those links at sporkfull.com/book.

50:15

And remember to get your tickets for Spork

50:17

Full Live, the Anything's Possible book tour. I'm

50:19

hitting 12 cities across the US starting in

50:22

just two weeks. These are live podcast tapings

50:24

and book signings. There's also a free virtual

50:26

event. Angie Lope has all

50:28

those details at sporkfull.com slash

50:31

tour. Special thanks to

50:33

Evan Kliman who hosts Good Food on LA's KCRW

50:35

and thanks to all my recipe developers. If you

50:37

want to learn more about them, we've been sharing

50:39

their personal backstories in short segments in the podcast

50:41

which ran in February. I hope you'll check those

50:43

out if you haven't already. Spork

50:46

Full is produced by me along

50:48

with managing producer, Emma Morgenstern, senior

50:50

producer, Andres O'Hara. Our editors on

50:52

this series are Nora Ritchie and

50:54

Tracey Samuelson with editorial help from

50:56

Tanika Weatherspoon and Julia Russo. Our

50:58

engineer is Jared O'Connell. Original

51:00

theme music by Andrea Kristensdottir. Additional music

51:03

help from Black Label Music. Spork

51:05

Full is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive

51:07

producers are Colin Anderson and Nora Ritchie. Until

51:10

next time, I'm Dan Paschman.

51:12

And I'm Diana in Edmunds,

51:14

Washington reminding you to eat

51:16

more, eat better, and eat

51:18

more better.