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can trust. Hello! And welcome

0:33

back to the Spike Podcast on Phrase Mice

0:35

and join me this week! As ever we

0:37

have Spikes editor some Slater, Alec and Gb

0:39

news is Charlie Peters said site playing softball

0:41

site will be talking about some of the.

0:43

Anti. Israel, anti Semitic protest camps

0:45

that spreading across Us campuses will

0:48

discuss the collapse of the Snp

0:50

Green Collision government and Joe Lysis

0:52

dreadful take on Cancel Culture. But

0:54

for we kick off, I just

0:56

went on. It's remind everyone at

0:58

home that Spikes internship program is

1:00

now accepting applications so much all

1:02

you are both into his I

1:04

merely. You. Can go places with

1:06

this Absolute I am. So the

1:08

deadline for that is a Sunday,

1:10

the nineteenth of May and you

1:12

can find out more by going

1:14

to Spiked Hyphen online.com for/insects. So

1:21

for the past week or so,

1:23

sorry. On Wednesday, Columbia University in New

1:25

York was taken over by a Gaza

1:27

Solidarity camp. These types of kind of

1:30

occupation protests or camps side taking over

1:32

other Us universities. There's been some quite

1:34

severe police crackdowns on them, But also

1:37

notably. These. Haven't just been normal

1:39

protest on have a has been

1:41

a lot of anti semitic intimidation,

1:43

some very questionable chancing. What have

1:45

you made it? This. Well. Have

1:47

been quite struck by the desperation to present.

1:50

This is is like any other form of

1:52

soon protest the line as he's be trotted

1:54

out by lot of the apologists. What's going

1:56

on or many American university campuses is this

1:58

is what students have. A waste. They've always

2:00

been involved in radical causes. They've

2:02

always done occupations, they've always done

2:05

protests, and I think. Really?

2:07

Thesaurus is completely wrong. I mean vessel

2:09

to compare what's going on on these

2:12

camps is where we seem francis at

2:14

Columbia, people shouting go Back To Poland,

2:16

Ashkenazi Jews or in one instance where

2:18

there was a group of Do students

2:21

who I'm on campus almost a little

2:23

counter demonstration were flying Israeli flags and

2:25

the American flags and will sit in

2:27

front of them with a sign that

2:30

says the out some Brigades next target

2:32

pointing towards than the Alcs I'm Brigade

2:34

being the military wing of her mass

2:36

slogans openly. Calling for. The. Destruction

2:38

of the State of Israel. Show me

2:41

a protest and Nineteen Seventies or Ninety

2:43

Six season which you had racist index

2:45

is being held people. And

2:48

you can make that comparison but

2:50

there is no person whatsoever of

2:52

I found the the nothing to

2:54

see here tendency really dispersing and

2:56

the what anti semitism. What? Anti

2:58

Semitism. Really? Really unfortunate

3:00

and strange. And and you get bound

3:02

up in these ridiculous organs. Are you

3:05

saying all these people were anti semitic?

3:07

Of course not, but is quite clearly

3:09

that there's a atmosphere which has been

3:11

created in which extreme was quite explicit

3:13

Anti Semitism is become completely permissible. Yeah,

3:15

we get into on for we will.

3:17

The points about the ridiculous heavy handed

3:20

response this various universities and the the

3:22

free speech arguments that been aired in

3:24

relation to this sometimes sincerely often somewhat

3:26

cynically of sight and but the same

3:28

time you can't. Get away from fat

3:30

bits and university students at elite American

3:33

universities. What people would consider to be.

3:36

The real kind of. Higher

3:38

institutions of western civilization sooner but that

3:40

kind of pointless I've become Coltrane's of

3:42

this on Vaughn is bigotry not just

3:45

towards Israel but to do a students

3:47

at those university sites that the nothing

3:49

to see here approach I think is

3:51

or is almost as telling his some

3:53

of the horrendous things that we've seen

3:55

said and taunted on the the proto

3:57

definitely and an intestinal as any in

3:59

any. How about what's going on? Let's have a quick

4:01

look at flip. Time

4:17

in would you make his way that this kind of

4:20

from. Sofa. And similar invective.

4:22

I guess this is becomes or normalized yet

4:24

because this isn't out, there is some come

4:26

from a vacuum. This isn't the first example

4:28

of it, but it seems the most extreme

4:30

example in it. Was. Supposed First and

4:33

foremost, it's in reaction to the ongoing

4:35

war, and it's important to tie it

4:37

to the situation that's unfolding. Indoors.

4:39

And across the water Middle East. I think

4:41

much of the fact that these sorts of

4:43

demonstrations and protests have been. Permitted.

4:46

By not only authorities but also

4:48

that are citizens for the most

4:50

part people have by and large

4:52

not ready oppose them both li

4:54

perhaps juice fitter their own. Harsh.

4:57

Response But one of the reasons why

4:59

this is gonna is because Israel has

5:01

so appallingly lost. The. Moral

5:03

Case in it's own messaging for it's

5:06

war. it's really struggling to convince the

5:08

world that it needs to. Carry.

5:10

Out this mission to destroy us.

5:13

it. It's really losing in the

5:15

battle. A public opinion. It's weapons

5:17

may be stronger than those of

5:19

Hamas and Hezbollah. Even that if

5:21

Gopnik. Great defensive capabilities. But. One

5:24

area where they've completely fallen apart

5:26

is the information with our ability

5:28

to explain. What? They're doing and

5:30

that in turn I think has. Incentivized

5:33

or liberated a sensation among a lot

5:36

of protested against that wall where they

5:38

think. The world is with us.

5:40

And that has allowed I think some

5:42

of the more extremist elements to come forward.

5:45

and I think it's also worth remembering why

5:47

we're seeing so many of these new law.

5:50

Anti Semitic as different elements of these protests

5:52

by some of the. Affected

5:54

me just in states is because

5:56

of the First Amendment. right?

5:58

They have. protection to say some

6:01

of those extreme things. A lot of them

6:03

are borderline cases calling for violent acts to

6:05

occur. That of course has an additional legal

6:07

limit in the States. But I think

6:09

what we've seen in Britain, even though

6:12

there is potentially a larger portion

6:14

of our population that is glued

6:17

to the Palestinian cause, we

6:21

haven't seen as extreme as protests as we're

6:23

seeing on these campuses. Perhaps in part because

6:25

there is that fear that the law might

6:28

actually finally do something if they cross that

6:30

line. There have been a few test cases

6:32

that have been put forward where the

6:35

Met in particular have failed, others where they've

6:37

gone through and made charges. But in

6:40

the States there's so much broader protection

6:43

available for this kind of speech. Maybe

6:46

in some cases that's a good thing. That exposes the

6:48

true nature of some elements of

6:50

this protest, but I think it's also at the same time

6:53

revealed some really

6:55

dark elements that authorities

6:57

and indeed ordinary people

6:59

have failed to crack down on. There

7:02

is one thing I think that we should stress on this that

7:04

at the same time, as all

7:07

this is going on, perhaps Tom, not quite

7:09

so far as you are on this point, I do think

7:11

there is a concern that people might

7:13

overreact to some degree and say that, I

7:16

think Columbia University, the rabbis, the chief rabbis there

7:18

said that if you're Jewish you should go home.

7:21

There are some students who have said no to that.

7:23

And that actually they're gonna go back to class

7:26

next week. They're gonna see out this semester. They're

7:28

not gonna go away forever. And I

7:30

was speaking to some Jewish friends this week, what would you do

7:32

if it was having to a London campus or if this was

7:34

happening at your university when you

7:36

were still a student, would you still go to

7:38

uni? They all said yeah. And

7:40

actually the worst thing that

7:42

you could do in this point is to be

7:44

intimidated by a movement that

7:47

by and large isn't actually physically

7:49

menacing. One

7:52

Thing that has been quite remarkable about

7:54

how impressive people have mobilized for the

7:56

Palestinian movement since this war started is

7:58

how it's captured. the all sorts of

8:00

other laughing movements. With. No relation

8:03

to the Palestinian cause. A rise with her.

8:05

A points out this week that one protester

8:07

had a T show on. Saying.

8:09

Fatties for Palestine saying that Fat phobia

8:11

in Palestine Aura of cause That's a

8:14

lines a few weeks Good Gb Nice

8:16

to rebuild group demand. Which. Is

8:18

an offshoot of Just of Oil. It's

8:20

a youth group which is now. Because.

8:23

Nobody cares about environmentalism right now. It's kind of

8:25

in the back that's they're going all in on

8:27

the Palestinian issue. Is that the same drag queens?

8:30

The Palestine where we started? How the South the?

8:32

I don't think that's not surprising. I mean these

8:34

high cliff the a lot of these causes the

8:36

drawing from the same it well and I mean

8:38

doesn't let alone a comeback on that first. one

8:40

thing on the question is an Israel. I think

8:42

I understand the point about. You know, have they

8:45

lost the argument or last, the information will wherever

8:47

they lost it to begin with because the fact

8:49

that there was this python assumption. That

8:51

any kind of response with illegitimate the

8:53

any kind of response would be genocide

8:55

rather than defenses the fact that we

8:58

saw in this country. Marches

9:00

and demonstrations celebrating what type of

9:02

seven before there was even any

9:04

yes sir, I mean the anti

9:06

Semitic violence and attacks and invective

9:08

and an incidence they're trapped by

9:10

people on the can community scary

9:12

trust pets Before. The war

9:14

began properly so I think that tells

9:17

you everything you need to nobody but

9:19

was guiding this and the I think

9:21

it's been clear for some time and

9:23

this is why I'm westerly academia to

9:25

become such a hotbed of Israel a

9:27

phobia to just straightforward anti semitism is

9:29

because of the fact the some. All.

9:31

Of these kinds of tendencies, whether it's the. Identity

9:34

Politics with or it's the. Did.

9:36

The general kind of so anti

9:38

imperialism, but is really just a

9:40

kind of anti west and tendency

9:42

responds very well to these kinds.

9:45

Causes. Know who's not because I see it

9:47

as a national liberation struggle, because it can have

9:49

expressed his all of those forms of self loathing

9:51

or the anti western sentiment. And also the the

9:54

way was anti semitism has been. Assessed

9:56

essentially given a new lease of life of

9:58

in that whole political. Ideology

10:00

phone away so surprising at all. I'm and

10:03

yes I mean most these protesters in I

10:05

don't really pay much with threat to wet

10:07

paper bags under the same time have always

10:09

been interesting is the desperation to try and

10:11

with my is the sanctions overseas outside agitators

10:13

is people outside the gates at Columbia were

10:15

as a few bad apples within. The

10:18

fact that the mainstream the protests if you

10:20

really wanted be taken seriously the genuinely progressive

10:23

anti racist movement. where do you think that

10:25

the first thing you would do is firstly

10:27

say anyone is going to be scream is

10:29

cutting that it has nothing to do of

10:31

us. You know you would be making very

10:34

clear that more than anything else you condemn

10:36

what Hamas data on October Seventh that's not

10:38

their told if anything quite the opposite An

10:40

analyst I think is were saying that and

10:42

people trying bracket the kind of anti semitic

10:44

an anti Israel thing. We. All know

10:47

that those lines of blood to the point with

10:49

Jesus. I mean the fact that you've got people

10:51

going around shouting about we don't want to states

10:53

we want all of it. Which. Is

10:55

a coup for the ethnic cleansing. Israel definitely

10:57

did. Had you would expect your average Israeli

10:59

due to to exist under a kind of

11:01

a mass. Similar style is looks leadership not

11:04

gonna go Zola Thirty one of the protesters

11:06

in the Atlantic and she said well maybe

11:08

just people as race should check their privilege

11:10

but at a faster if they don't let

11:12

us just deal with living under I don't

11:15

arrest occupation by as by the point is

11:17

that they create, they've created an environment in

11:19

which the stuff is permissible. I'm in which

11:21

the stuff is kind of encouraged, even the

11:23

way in which various Columbia. Academics and they

11:26

walk. How often a hundred people were arrested

11:28

when assessments get the incumbent on the way

11:30

know see this is as the civil Liberties

11:32

and the academic freedom in the free speech

11:34

on campus aspect to that which obviously few

11:36

engaged in peaceful protests If you're engaged in

11:39

politics. if you guys make an all of

11:41

my how disgusting racist bigoted those are they

11:43

should be protecting those are protected on American

11:45

university campuses. but it's quite clear that that's

11:47

not what this is because those academics are

11:50

not little. The protests is not saying let

11:52

these people restrain the bonuses do of us

11:54

but I. Have a right to

11:56

say that basically presenting them as

11:58

an unalloyed good. And if anything,

12:00

to be on their side. So yes,

12:02

there is a free speech. Parts of

12:04

this argument. I think the way in

12:06

which Columbia quite rationally responded to this

12:09

by calling the police and was a

12:11

bad idea. it's a bit seemingly triple

12:13

being Kampmann overnights that didn't necessarily work

12:15

on and other campuses. You're saying I'm

12:17

more of a crackdown, which. Is

12:19

deeply concerning but the same time. The

12:22

complete absence of any condemnation, A complete

12:24

absence of any. I'm not knocking for

12:26

them to be censored but just a

12:28

to point out an answer that speed

12:30

space to properly demonstrate against indistinct completely

12:32

eliminated. When do issues of try to

12:34

do this They found themselves being followed

12:36

around campus block from moving they try

12:38

to them boots was encampment people south

12:40

things that we got. Some Zionists yes

12:42

we know what that is. Thus a

12:45

coworker saying some jews have turned out

12:47

then we shouldn't be shy about pointing

12:49

that out yet and tell him in

12:51

what you made. Of I'm in There has

12:53

been. To. Authentic sense as it

12:55

is is t reactions wanted to so

12:57

ignore it sends and. In. It

12:59

is no and semitism here. The other has

13:02

been from and many right wing citizen. I'm

13:04

at school in the national Guard, the Army

13:06

in yeah I'm indo. There's an element of

13:09

the Texas state on the i didn't know

13:11

existed and yesterday or the Public safety department

13:13

or something instead are armed and it's and

13:15

up on horses. The Crackdown and yeah U

13:18

T Austin isn't. Think for the ah yes

13:20

that that is a there's a ginormous responsive

13:22

not was the most significant. Clashes.

13:24

That we've seen so far. I think I'm.

13:27

Not. As green as you said, with the incumbent

13:29

grabbing overnights in Colombia, I'm the same thing as

13:31

things happen. In. You t

13:33

deck gonna see? More people turning up

13:36

now to defy that force. Yeah, I

13:38

don't think it's a positive. Cities if

13:40

he wants a crackdown. On a

13:42

protests like that's. If.

13:44

There's no way old for moving as people from what

13:46

is essentially private property and on the time when lot

13:48

of the students than upstanding I'm in the Squares rules

13:51

are taking of a buildings. And. What other

13:53

universities and in recent months said if

13:55

you don't leave. The. building will just

13:57

for me the from the university you know you're

13:59

no longer part of this course.

14:02

I mean, is that a threat to academic freedom?

14:05

That's what I mean, the free speech argument coming from

14:08

those people is ridiculous anyway. These people who, you know,

14:10

six weeks ago were saying that this academic had to

14:12

be handed off of campus because they

14:14

didn't respect so-and-so's pronouns or whatever. This is obvious

14:16

cynical bollocks as far as they're concerned. But also,

14:19

you know, this is the point about if you're

14:21

engaged in campus protest, you know, you can't occupy

14:23

a certain place indefinitely and not expect a response.

14:25

The point of civil disobedience is that you are

14:28

breaking the rules. Yeah. And it's absurd for them

14:30

to then turn around and say because we haven't

14:32

been entirely indulged, therefore

14:35

this is a threat to free speech. So of

14:37

course, there's one needs to be straightforward about

14:39

this. Free speech is a fundamental

14:42

liberty, but at the same time that doesn't mean that

14:44

you're allowed to engage in violence. It doesn't mean you're

14:46

allowed to engage in harassment. It doesn't mean you're allowed

14:48

to stop people moving around campus. It doesn't mean

14:50

that you're allowed to, as happened at Berkeley a couple

14:53

of weeks ago, when there's

14:55

a pro-Israel Jewish society-run

14:57

event bang on

14:59

the window, smash windows and force

15:01

them to leave throughout the back, you know, through the have

15:03

to be escorted out through the back door. That is not

15:05

freedom of speech. We understand that. It's not common to break

15:07

other laws. No. And to engage

15:10

in action. And yet I think

15:12

it's been fascinating how you want these people who've never

15:14

had anything to say about free speech, other than to

15:16

put it in quote marks and pretend that it's just

15:18

nonsense, now claiming free speech

15:20

as carte blanche to engage

15:22

in harassment, sometimes

15:25

violence and also disruption,

15:27

which is the thing. If you're going to stage a protest,

15:29

I mean, I think that speaks to the entitlement amongst these

15:31

students and the fact that they have been, in

15:34

some instances on previous issues, kind of quite

15:36

indulged by a university establishment who are often

15:38

quite kind of scared of them because

15:41

they were just terrified of being called names, not because they

15:43

pose a physical threat. Or agree with them. Or agree with

15:45

them is often the case where they

15:47

kind of expect that they can again indulge

15:49

in this with no pushback. But as I say, the point of

15:51

civil disobedience is because you expect there to be some sort of

15:54

consequence. You're there to make your point regardless and so On.

15:56

So I Think part of this is this. A lot

15:58

of this is just. Ingenuous is not say

16:01

there aren't free speech because as of course

16:03

they're all the fat the you t He

16:05

saw that even local journalists being knocked over

16:07

and arrested for no obvious reason and people

16:09

are allowed to engage and peaceful protest and

16:11

but I think in a way that's what

16:13

makes it all the more. Unfortunate

16:16

that by coming down as hard as

16:18

some these universities have, they've given the

16:21

free speech mansell to deeply really don't

16:23

have an and finally coming to see.

16:26

What? To say something about the I'm in

16:28

the Last yes, And that actually you

16:30

know the sucked kind of anti racist

16:32

politics that is very much a part

16:34

the university bureaucracy am in this instance

16:37

at least is plenty. Pause the problem.

16:39

It doesn't. It's

16:41

all my staff. Essentially, the

16:43

language of D I is being

16:45

used against Jewish students. There is

16:48

legitimate criticism to be making about

16:50

Israel with regards to policies that

16:52

are has in terms of integration,

16:55

how it permits nationality, But I

16:57

think to go one step further

16:59

and describe that one assigned or

17:02

aligns with Israel as colonizer is

17:04

a clear. Kaupthing

17:06

of that language to embark on

17:08

often extremely hateful, denigrate, sorry and

17:11

dangerous rhetoric that we've seen on

17:13

many of his campus protests. and

17:15

it is. Reflective I think

17:17

of a wider experience that many people

17:20

have a universities these days which is

17:22

of course thought. The oppressor buses, the

17:24

oppressed, the colonizer, the colonized. That.

17:26

Worldview encapsulates or the temp attempts

17:28

to encapsulate or parts of. World.

17:31

Politics. And story has

17:34

to include it were possible and I

17:36

think they see these puzzle pieces fitting

17:38

and very neatly to the lack of

17:40

nuance. And as I can

17:42

detect a great degree of international

17:44

weakness. On. This issue. At.

17:47

The same time as realizing that

17:49

America it really matters. In.

17:51

This debate and so they can.

17:53

Put. On quite a lot of pressure and get

17:55

an enormous mob attention at a time when leaders

17:58

in the U S. On. Them. Rating

18:00

the level of support for Israel's.

18:03

Mission. And indeed existence of the

18:05

house. In. The parson and.

18:08

There is it now. Quite desperate move I think.

18:10

Coming out of Israel to try and compare their

18:12

war. To. The. U

18:14

S. Lad intervention in Iraq and Syria to

18:16

the street to defeat Isis. The. Same

18:19

that Hamas a that Isis. And. They

18:21

want other people to think and feel like that. Ben.

18:23

Wanna see? was a Defense Secretary for much

18:25

of the. Assault on The

18:28

Mosul in Northern Iraq and

18:30

Rocker and Syria, etc. Describes.

18:32

Israel is potentially engaging in a

18:34

killing rage. Last year. And

18:37

Israel same way you know you're You're pointing out this

18:39

with the same time. and you are in charge of

18:41

your own military fighting against. And it's Miss Bow. You.

18:45

Had a potentially worse enemy

18:47

to civilian. Casualty.

18:49

Ratio you. Wiped.

18:51

Out the vast majority the buildings in

18:54

the city's under American Command basic Utilities

18:56

are not That years later. If.

18:59

Lots of these protests to see the way that

19:01

world leaders aren't able to. Backup.

19:03

Those Arguments: When a Nother power does it,

19:05

I think that they are very easily emboldened

19:08

to push a step further. And they do

19:10

sense that weakness and a failure to match

19:12

the level of support the haven't the Past.

19:15

I. Think that more than anything, all politicians

19:17

are very keen to criticize. Mission. Mike

19:19

Johnson did as well go their ankles national Guard.

19:21

President. Biden calling them anti semitic was it is

19:23

raised in the same. Part.

19:25

Of the reason why these protests have. Popped.

19:28

Up in such ways. Complaint: they can smell blood. They

19:30

know that up it's politically to so we can this

19:32

of them and yet. Some. Sort of. Anything

19:34

goes well as a just find nothing and

19:37

that's really important. Point is to the extent

19:39

to which. The. Signal has been

19:41

since the suit as his own right

19:43

side of history which is so blood

19:46

curdling because this is the opposite. Such

19:48

the case I'm in that the I'm

19:50

open expressions of support for barbarism the

19:52

taken place I may be one thing

19:54

some of them with downplaying and on

19:57

October seventh but just openly. Celebrating.

19:59

com The way in which making these references to the

20:01

Alka-San Brigade and whatever has just become this kind of mean

20:05

taunt that happens on an American campus I

20:07

think tells you how deep the rot runs

20:09

and it makes me think it

20:12

is almost regardless of how well

20:14

or not prosecuted this war is. We

20:17

would have had something like this happen. Yes,

20:19

it's become a big focus. Yes, it's become the

20:21

current thing amongst a bunch of students who probably

20:23

haven't even opened one book about this particular subject,

20:25

but it just shows that they're drawing from a

20:27

very deep well of identity

20:30

politics, anti-westernism and ultimately anti-Semitism and I

20:33

think to to pretend like they're just

20:35

good kids who've been led a bit astray is

20:38

not to take them seriously and also not to

20:40

take seriously the the scale of the problem that's

20:42

built up in basically kind of American

20:45

and western intelligentsia.

20:48

They're just as ever the students are just

20:51

the more radical exponent of that they just

20:53

happen to live in a time in which

20:55

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20:57

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22:47

spiked. Right so Hamza Yousuf has

22:50

pulled the plug on the SMP

22:53

green coalition. I don't

22:55

think anyone is going to miss this particular

22:57

government. I mean it's

22:59

hard to pinpoint exactly what led to the

23:01

collapse. Most likely it seems

23:04

the Greens were most annoyed by the

23:06

Scottish Government or by the SMP's abandonment

23:08

of quite stringent climate targets. They were

23:10

promising initially to cut carbon

23:13

emissions by 75% I think by 2030. It seems as if the

23:15

SMP are quietly annoyed

23:19

by the Greens almost rejection of the Cass

23:21

review so there's a sort of gender aspect

23:23

to this that's certainly what has been suggested

23:27

in some quarters. What we made of this

23:29

collapse you certainly won't miss them. I will

23:31

in a way. I think the Scottish Greens

23:33

are a fantastic boost to most of the

23:35

causes that I care about. I mean there's

23:37

this bizarre selection of people, Patrick Harvey and

23:39

Lorna Slater and Maggie Chapman, who's

23:41

someone who's on record as saying that both the eight-year-old

23:44

should be able to change their sex and also that

23:46

her maths are alright really. That's not exactly what she

23:48

said I should clarify but you know making excuses. So

23:50

October 7th was an act of decolonisation rather than terrorised.

23:52

I'm sure she... Don't believe the media who say it's

23:54

terrorised. And I'm sure she claimed that she just didn't

23:57

realise what had properly happened and whatever but you know.

24:00

the record is what the record is Maggie but yeah

24:02

I think that they've been a fantastic boon to a

24:04

lot of the causes that we care about. So I'm

24:06

sad to see them go they're a bizarre parade of

24:08

people but it is no it's interesting

24:10

because I think it's the

24:13

coalition I mean it's not coalition

24:15

government but the coalition agreement that they had I

24:17

think was quite striking as far as the willingness

24:19

of the SMP to almost prioritise this project of

24:21

kind of social engineering over what they're supposedly set

24:23

up to do. Now obviously they share the cause

24:25

of independence with the Scottish Greens but at the

24:28

same time the fact that they got so bogged

24:30

down in gender self ID in

24:32

all in green politics to a certain extent

24:34

yeah and despite the fact that to be

24:37

to be so pro-green and to be engaged in the

24:39

campaign Scottish independence makes absolutely no sense when the whole

24:41

economic case for it was based on the oil and

24:43

gas reserve makes no sense whatsoever. But

24:46

I think it's just an interesting reminder that that

24:48

whole kind of period of SMP rule propped up

24:51

by the Greens sometimes formally sometimes informally over recent

24:53

years was that they so often took

24:55

their eye off the ball because whilst

24:57

they were normally about liberating Scots really their

24:59

main project was remaking

25:01

them within their own image so it's an interesting point

25:04

I mean it is just in time the fact that

25:06

you've got the fact that it's

25:08

gotten to the point with the gender issue that even

25:11

as thoroughly up

25:14

to their necks in gender ideologies the SMP are they have

25:16

to kind of cut loose the greens because they're making them

25:18

look bad I think it's good at least that they're sensing

25:21

which way the wind's blowing on these issues even if it's

25:23

far too late in the day. Definitely Charlie what do you

25:25

think? Well I think it's a little

25:27

bit of a case of you hear a rumor that your

25:29

girlfriend's going to dump you so you quickly call her up

25:31

and say by the way I'm not so keen on this

25:34

after the climate change panel the

25:37

committee that came out with that ruling it seemed

25:39

pretty obvious according to the

25:42

the reporters up there that this was coming yeah

25:44

but it points to the fact that

25:46

the SMP at the moment aren't particularly good at politics that

25:48

they've done this because it seems now most

25:51

likely that there's going to be a

25:53

vote of no confidence probably next week and and

25:55

he might lose his his seating

25:57

as the first minister and in

25:59

a reminder or turn of events, the person who might hold

26:02

the power here because the Greens are likely to come

26:04

out against him is Ash

26:06

Regan, the Albert MSP

26:09

who lost to Hamza Yousuf in the

26:11

first round of the election for the

26:13

leadership last year. Formerly the SMP then

26:15

defected. Yeah, it's defected to Albert and

26:17

Hamza Yousuf said at the time that

26:19

she was no great loss and

26:21

now she holds the key to whether or not

26:24

he keeps his job basically. And for

26:26

that to happen in basically a year to go

26:28

from this great leadership moment to the person

26:30

who's new buted coming through to

26:33

return the favour is

26:35

a disaster from the SMP's perspective.

26:37

What happened in Scotland during the

26:40

latter half of the SMP's reign,

26:43

what happens next we'll see but you know

26:45

an early election is likely I think half

26:47

of this spurt of no confidence but what

26:49

happens later, what's happened the latter half sorry,

26:51

I think is going to be quite indicative of what might

26:54

happen to England after the next general election

26:56

because the SMP has tried to

26:58

do quite a lot of politics with not a lot of

27:00

money and if the

27:03

polling is right and we're going to have a Labour government in

27:05

the UK at the next election, I

27:08

think they're going to find themselves in a similar position

27:10

and instead of having the

27:12

economic and financial manoeuvrability to pull the

27:14

strings that they want to achieve the

27:17

economic ambitions they have, they

27:20

might instead be restricted to

27:22

cultural war politicking which as

27:24

both of you can attest there's been no shortage of from

27:27

the SMP since they took power. And

27:29

Scottish Labour has supported every move on

27:32

that front, the hate crime act, the

27:34

gender recognition bill and Asawa now trying

27:36

to distance himself from that stuff. I

27:38

mean even and what's funny is you

27:40

remember people lots of people

27:42

complained to the police about Humza's speech you know

27:44

where he said listed

27:46

out all these senior Scottish jobs and

27:49

then said wiped after them and Asawa

27:51

gave almost exactly the same speech it's

27:53

absolutely bizarre. So you're right

27:55

Charlie I think you know if we see Keir

27:58

Starmer I mean we know that Keir Starmer tries. his

28:00

best to distance himself from those culture war things.

28:02

But that's- Having taken a knee himself for the

28:04

peak of that issue. Yeah, he's naturally inclined to

28:07

want to go there and then has to be

28:09

dragged back, kicking and screaming when he sees the,

28:11

hears about what the focus groups- And there are

28:13

so many potential elements here

28:15

that could shift Starma in certain ways

28:17

should he become Prime Minister. But I

28:20

think it's certainly the case that his premiership at the

28:23

start, if the Pony is right, might be quite weak.

28:25

He might be very reliant on support from the left

28:27

of his party. And also what happens on the other

28:29

side of the House, should

28:31

the next leader of the Conservative Party be

28:34

rather similar as the last four or

28:36

so, e.g. very permissive of quite

28:38

a lot of so-called like woke culture

28:40

war stuff. This

28:43

sort of politics might come back in

28:45

England in a more powerful way and in Wales,

28:47

of course, by virtue of the same

28:49

sort of, there's no cash for anything. We need

28:51

to be loud. Let's support the

28:53

London mayor renaming the tube lines, the lioness

28:55

line or something like that. Or

28:58

do some remarkable situation like you just described

29:01

where Amzie Youssef was saying

29:03

that it's appalling that there are so many white

29:05

people in Scotland or thereabouts. I

29:07

mean, it's funny because Scotland has

29:09

been a sort of test case

29:11

or laboratory for terrible authoritarian ideas.

29:14

All of them seem to blow up in

29:16

the SNP's face eventually. You know, the

29:19

Hate Crime Act seems as if it's been

29:21

almost neutered successfully by J.K. Rowling at this

29:23

point. It's kind of collapsed under

29:25

the weight of its own ridiculousness. They

29:27

had like 7000 complaints in the course

29:29

of the first week. Amzie Youssef is

29:31

the biggest alleged hate criminal in

29:34

all of Scotland at this point because of that white

29:36

speech that he gave in a country that

29:38

is 96% white. So you

29:40

shouldn't have really been that surprised. But

29:43

it was telling because this has been

29:45

the SNP's raise on debtors since they

29:47

came to power. Yes,

29:50

they've been campaigning for independence. Yes, they got

29:52

scarily close in that referendum back in 2015.

29:55

But it was also the fact that they were from

29:58

the off obsessed with these issues. of culture

30:01

of social engineering of authoritarianism. One of

30:03

the first things they do is to

30:05

pass bans on offensive chanting at football.

30:07

That's one of their kind of set

30:09

piece policies that then gets

30:12

rolled back eventually. They tried and failed

30:14

to introduce the name person scheme, which

30:16

everyone's sort of forgotten about now. But

30:18

this genuinely Orwellian attempt to

30:21

assign a state guardian to every child

30:23

born in Scotland, incredibly

30:25

chilling, ended up getting held up

30:28

in the courts effectively. They would want

30:30

to know how your child's room is

30:32

decorated, what television programs they watch, in

30:35

case people were unsure about how sinister his plan

30:37

was. And then of course then you move into

30:39

gender self ID and the hate crime legislation is

30:41

like this movement that is supposed to liberate

30:44

Scotland, but it doesn't trust Scots to raise

30:46

their own children or tie their own shoelaces

30:48

or walk down the road without being overcome by

30:50

the hate monster. Or buy two for one. No,

30:53

all in all the money. And the price thing. Smacking

30:56

down that we're debating everything here at the moment.

30:59

That was passed in 2019. But this is

31:01

a feature, not a bug. There's this thing about

31:03

kind of technocratic centre left but not always politics, which

31:05

is to say that the reason that we are in

31:07

government is to improve

31:10

the public. And I think they're a

31:12

perfect example of that. And I think a lot of people

31:14

in Scotland and Ian McWhers' piece on Spike this week makes

31:17

this point quite powerfully is that what was presented to them

31:19

as Scottish solutions to Scottish problems.

31:21

And this is a way in which devolution

31:23

will really mean that the bread and butter

31:25

issues are properly dealt with in a way

31:28

that far away Westminster can't. It's just become

31:30

from the off a project of how can

31:32

we make you horrible racist child beating lot

31:34

slightly better. And they've got a

31:36

lot to show for it. Do you think they

31:38

get away with it Charlie? Because they pose as

31:40

anti English, but really their target, the target of

31:43

all their laws of Scots. I think they pose

31:45

more often as diplomats. The way that

31:47

they're treated when they come to London or when

31:49

they're treated in the English media is

31:52

really quite remarkable because they're

31:54

treated as emissaries from a foreign country. There

31:56

isn't the same level of

31:58

political criticism. and engagement with the

32:01

media that you might get from, let's

32:03

say, I don't know, applied in

32:05

Wales, you get this sort of approach that

32:07

we're speaking to the Home Secretary from Latvia.

32:10

So let's not pry too

32:12

aggressively into their domestic policies because who

32:15

are we to criticise a foreign nation?

32:17

And yet they're treated as if they are representatives

32:19

from a foreign land. And I

32:22

think there's a reason why perhaps we don't get very many SMP

32:25

moments in the media for right leaning

32:28

platforms, GB news in

32:31

particular often struggles to hear from

32:33

the SMP, perhaps because they anticipate

32:35

that the questioning might be a

32:37

bit more direct than what they anticipate. There might

32:39

be a few more questions

32:41

than they're usually used to. I know that

32:43

the media in Scotland is a bit more

32:45

pugnacious. But I think by and

32:48

large, people don't have the same understanding of

32:50

what the SMP is actually up to across the rest

32:52

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slash spiked. The comedian

34:47

Joe Lycett has come out in

34:49

praise of cancel culture because apparently

34:51

it is making comedy more

34:54

inclusive, more refined, more

34:56

thoughtful. Let's have a look at this

34:58

clip. What is cancel culture's impact on comedy? I

35:01

think that people

35:03

are more thoughtful about what they

35:05

write jokes about. And I

35:08

think that's a good thing. I think really

35:10

it's made it a better industry and a

35:12

more inclusive and interesting industry. Charlie, isn't this

35:14

a bit easy for Joe Lycett to say?

35:16

I mean, if you tell jokes about, I

35:18

don't know, cheese or something, then you probably

35:21

you're not going to get canceled anytime soon.

35:24

I think it's remarkable that he's made that despite the

35:26

fact that he has made jokes about

35:28

cheese and has still been put

35:31

on the pedestal for public and

35:33

indeed police appropriate. I mean, in

35:35

2022, Joe Lycett put

35:37

on a gig in Belfast and

35:39

someone reported him for having an offensive

35:42

joke about a donkey of all things.

35:44

I think it's on the same tier as cheese

35:46

as not being a particularly controversial area of comedy.

35:49

I think it's late enough in the podcast that we can say this, but

35:51

it's donkey dick, wasn't it? I think that was specific for him. Right, well

35:53

there we go. You did swear earlier, so

35:56

we'll rock that. There's rules.

35:58

No off-com here, Charlie. Yeah, no. Not

36:00

that that ever stops you. Oh, come on now. The

36:04

police service turned up, they investigated,

36:07

they interviewed him and they said they had to do it.

36:10

It seems remarkable. It's not one of his fake

36:12

stories that he implanted. That's always what I've got

36:14

in the back of my mind. Well, I've watched

36:17

the whole thing as preparation

36:19

for this podcast and he says that

36:21

he adds a bit more context, again, how much of this

36:23

is also a prank, but he claims that he'd superimposed a

36:25

picture of a donkey's penis over a picture of him as

36:27

a child. Right. I'd

36:29

raise it to that extra level of ick that

36:31

laid someone to make a complaint. But

36:33

who knows if it's true. Yeah. So

36:36

the fact of the matter is he faced a police investigation and

36:38

so far as he was questioned as his

36:40

claim at the time. And

36:42

to go through that process and say that

36:44

council culture isn't so much of an

36:47

issue, I think you have to really reflect quite intensely

36:49

on what could have happened to you in that situation.

36:51

And I think people talk all the time about how

36:54

council culture isn't about the force of the

36:56

state. And the concern is how it's those

36:58

societal impulses that need comics

37:00

and writers and thinkers to second guess. And

37:03

that's certainly a massive part of it. And Simon Evans

37:05

has written about this fight this week. But

37:07

I think also we

37:09

really shouldn't ignore the extent to

37:12

which the state can cause that

37:14

second guessing as well. He's

37:16

faced it himself. And I think when

37:18

he's making these arguments, he should acknowledge that. Maybe

37:21

if it was a trans woman's donkey dick,

37:23

then he would be behind bars. But

37:26

who knows? It wasn't Scotland. It wasn't

37:28

Scotland. I mean, yeah, there have been some

37:31

very brutal cancellations in

37:34

comedy. This is not a non-issue. No,

37:36

I was reminded of this because Daniel

37:38

O'Reilly, aka Dapper Laughs, people might remember

37:40

him about just under 10 years ago.

37:42

He actually put out a response to

37:44

this particular clip. But

37:47

it's something we covered at the time. That was a

37:49

really good example because this was a really brutal cancellation.

37:52

So people can read and re-locate all of

37:54

it. But he basically got counseled for making

37:56

a joke on stage that he hadn't actually

37:58

made. this sort of

38:00

lad character, this kind of lad comedian. He had a

38:02

BBC3 TV show. ITV2.

38:05

ITV2, sorry. Oi, oi. Fraser's

38:08

president of the fan club, yeah. Tried

38:12

and failed to be a contestant. But yeah,

38:14

he had this show in character

38:16

teach men how to get women or whatever. And

38:18

there was this kind of low-level campaign to say

38:20

he was disgusting and like something needs to be

38:23

done about him. And then he was on stage

38:25

and then he was talking about how the media

38:27

had slurred him as this pro-rape comedian and someone

38:30

shouted out from basically made a kind

38:32

of rape joke from the audience, essentially.

38:34

He repeated it after hearing it. And then he

38:36

got counseled for making this supposed rape joke. So

38:38

it wasn't even anything that he'd said himself. Brutally

38:42

cancelled. He'd lost his show.

38:45

He had venues being pulled for his tour and so

38:47

on. He ends up having to make this bizarre, we

38:50

feel he was inclined to make this bizarre apology on

38:52

News Night to Emily Maitless. You

38:55

all remember his role neck. No, exactly. Put

38:58

through the ringer. And put through the ringer, especially because

39:00

people took offence not just to what he had said,

39:02

because he hadn't actually said it, but also because of

39:04

the fact that people saw him as this working class

39:06

comedian with a working class audience. And

39:08

therefore, they can't stand this kind of blue material.

39:11

They'll go out and act on it. They'll be

39:13

overly exercised by it. And

39:15

that's a big problem. So there have

39:17

been so many cases of this. I

39:19

mean, in recent times, Jerry Sadowitz being counseled at

39:21

the Edinburgh Fringe, a slightly more

39:23

worthy example. And also,

39:26

this point that Simon Evans makes in his piece is

39:28

that sometimes you're missing a trip by focusing too much

39:30

on the ones that make the news, because obviously the

39:32

bigger problem is further down the food chain. People are

39:34

doing open mics. People are just starting out who are

39:37

quite clearly under the cost. If they stray

39:40

out of what are supposedly the safe parameters,

39:43

they're going to be punished for it. And that's the

39:45

unseen cost of council culture. But I think it just

39:47

comes down to that thing. It's always the case that

39:49

the people who say council culture don't exist or

39:52

that free speech isn't really under threat. It's always

39:54

people in politics or people in culture or people

39:56

in comedy who have never said anything interesting

39:59

or challenging. or in some cases funny in their

40:01

life. That's largely why they don't feel touched by

40:03

it, is because of the fact that they will

40:05

never really be a target of it, the odd

40:07

visit from the police over some strange

40:09

donkey situation notwithstanding. But that's what it comes down

40:11

to. They know that they're not the targets of

40:13

it, therefore they can deny it till the cows

40:15

come home. Definitely. Chirly, fun of thoughts? People

40:18

can get away with it now

40:20

because technology permits comedians to have

40:22

alternate ways of being offensive and

40:25

still making money. There is no

40:27

shortage of comics who've made it

40:30

online through social media, who have

40:32

not gone through the mainstream routes anymore, part of course doesn't

40:34

really exist as much, and now

40:36

make their living by maybe

40:39

fishing a little bit with, here's a clip I'll put

40:41

out online, and then if you want to see the

40:43

real stuff, here's five pound a month. I'm

40:46

playing five pound a month for a lot of

40:48

good comics who can't put out stuff publicly. Like

40:51

Roy Chubby Brown and... All the good

40:53

stuff. He was telling me about

40:55

this before the start. I don't want to allow you there, but...

40:57

Oh, that's chalky, Jack. I

40:59

knew I'd get cooked between you two. I

41:01

knew it was going to be bleak, this one. But

41:04

you have to, I mean, so many comedians

41:06

who I think aren't bothering to go there

41:08

on this argument, aren't wanting to fight

41:10

back on the Joe Leisets of this

41:12

world, because they don't really need to.

41:14

They don't really need to be risky

41:16

in public anymore because they can sort

41:18

of advertise that there might be slightly

41:20

stronger wares behind the paywall, and you

41:22

can get around this cancel culture because

41:24

Leisets and his mob aren't going to

41:26

see it. I

41:28

mean, case in point, recently, there's a guy,

41:30

you might watch them occasionally, Finn vs the

41:32

internet, Finn Taylor, you've seen him. Very funny.

41:34

He had on his Patreon in

41:37

the full episode, someone from that extremely

41:40

strange sort of like Irish

41:42

activist website, Politics Joe, as

41:45

one of the guests. And this

41:47

guest laughed at a really funny joke about

41:50

Joe, who's the best Joe, and one of the Joes

41:52

was Joseph Fritzl. It was pretty funny. I'm not going

41:54

to let it caught me. It tickled me. And he

41:56

laughed. And because it went out on

41:59

their main. public section he

42:02

then was the target of no shortage

42:04

of those that's actually really offensive that's

42:06

actually so bad how could you laugh

42:08

at that tweets from his own team

42:11

you know as is the way but

42:14

since then I've noticed that way more

42:16

of Finn's divine content

42:19

has been limited to

42:21

the paywall only yeah because they realized we can

42:23

still get away with it people can see what's

42:25

what's good and they'll come pay the fans don't

42:27

mind it's the I think I think Simon Evans

42:29

puts it really well in his article it's like

42:32

that sort of the imaginary third party that you

42:34

kind of have to think about

42:36

and second-guess about all the all the

42:38

time the comic consents I consent but

42:40

does that angry strange woman on Twitter

42:43

consent no you're gonna get absolutely pillory

42:46

why bother thank you

42:48

so much for watching the spikes podcast

42:50

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42:53

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42:55

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42:57

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43:02

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