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1:08

And welcome to a special edition of

1:10

the Spanish The Or podcast on Feel

1:12

it Really? these a joint is ever

1:14

by Sid Lowe Hello Sydney, Hello, how

1:16

are you. I'm. Good! My friend

1:19

and I'm excited because we got special guess

1:21

that someone we wanted to have on the

1:23

podcast for a while and we finally made

1:25

it happen and we thought it would be

1:27

a good time to make it happen ahead

1:29

of El Classico Carolyn it goes on the

1:31

podcast Gary welcome to tears at p Great

1:33

to be on. Regular. Listener

1:35

of course, Well

1:37

with them as you your your that you're

1:39

the one that in a have a a

1:42

go I think guy debord you know what

1:44

year did hear appreciate that thanks to the

1:46

support and so we've got lots of stuff

1:48

we went to ask you obviously that without

1:51

classico are going to and reflect on your

1:53

time a Barcelona new memories of the of

1:55

the fixture or wanted to start of by

1:58

asking you. About this. The

2:00

universe. For us it's still pretty special.

2:02

We don't have the little out in

2:04

time magician. we don't have the Be

2:06

Portuguese goal scoring machine here anymore. Maybe

2:08

a little bit of the star dust

2:10

has has dropped off but for us

2:13

it still retains her a special nature

2:15

and from us external position somebody doesn't

2:17

necessarily given working in Spain or in

2:19

Spanish football for use it is. It

2:21

still have a special fixture. A classic

2:23

I would come from. Now.

2:25

Absolutely on a thinking well football

2:28

it says is probably the biggest

2:30

club game arm and and still

2:32

is and probably always will be

2:35

on even in our stars come

2:37

and go but the two clubs

2:39

remain the same on is hugely

2:42

important. Six years of for both.

2:46

Die would say and it's kind

2:48

of is unique in many ways

2:50

and in the history of the

2:52

two sides disease not darby game

2:54

as such. even though when I

2:57

was there used to court held

2:59

that of it's an hour at

3:01

which I'll go some is the

3:03

art classes in asks his finale

3:05

fly suss out since I was

3:07

it was but yeah it's it's

3:09

it's a huge game yes no

3:11

messy know Rinaldo now but you've

3:13

got his into this is Bellingham

3:15

and the young superstars coming up

3:17

with a Barcelona and will ask

3:19

probably about a next season as

3:21

well as his junior and done

3:23

so this. There's plenty disciplines to

3:25

enjoy. And it's interesting that you

3:27

said that and it's music to my his

3:29

hearing you say it will still be the

3:31

biggest club game pretty be forever and India

3:34

in the Spanish percent I noticed they've they've

3:36

been big enough money to city gets Liverpool

3:38

in recent years and I've seen it being

3:41

called at the new classic com and will

3:43

classical much to City Liverpool but that that

3:45

will never have the same. Ever

3:47

eaten air history and and meaning that

3:49

the six to has months or a

3:52

constant fencing is just just because to

3:54

the same supply well for few seasons

3:56

and real know that will probably change

3:58

when when flop and under. The injury

4:00

which will happen tax on walks

4:02

away sir. I think that says

4:05

you can't suddenly go out with

4:07

before it was in a Liverpool

4:09

and Manchester United and or because

4:11

I was Chelsea in A Man

4:13

United and that's he can keep

4:15

changing. Where's that Fixture it up

4:17

with We'd We'd probably. I think

4:20

fair comparison is have a proper

4:22

Darby's Liverpool editing them and just

4:24

Darby. The North London Derby possibly.

4:26

But it's it's It's a different

4:28

sales at a classic. Oh and and

4:30

and even to this die and things have changed.

4:32

Modesty, foreign and see The Premier League is. Much

4:36

much richer than two hundred and

4:39

are linked. But if you look

4:41

at the the bigger picture the

4:43

superstars the world's best place to.

4:45

Great place still go. To.

4:48

La Liga. They go to Barcelona around

4:50

address and that's enough. that's that's not

4:53

as not really changed I think. I.

4:56

Don't think. In the premier

4:58

league is really signed an

5:00

absolute superstar until possibly Harlem

5:02

buddies quite young pogba was

5:04

get year. End

5:08

up to those expectations. but the absolute

5:10

Superstars in has does that. We've seen

5:13

her around Madrid and Barcelona for many

5:15

years now. I'm a a still seems

5:17

to be did did the place that

5:19

they want to go. Speaking.

5:22

A superstar signing for the the picture

5:24

in spite of service started Nine Eighty

5:26

Six when when Bassline assigned to set

5:28

aside the world's best for last says

5:31

obligated to this is another components this

5:33

have a say in and. You. Know

5:35

this is dismissing the I bang on about

5:37

know is that that did Novocaine as the

5:39

kind of the meaning the symbolism stood at

5:41

the con of the social and cultural one.

5:43

A Bulletin Significance of this Dhabi has when

5:45

you went to Barcelona how long did it

5:47

take you said to call have become aware

5:49

of that of that the this was more

5:51

than to use the cliches. This was more

5:53

than a game. About twelve minutes. Or

5:57

to say that it gets residency from

5:59

the very start. So they have to

6:01

talk about in in in many ways and

6:03

some some soon as he got their that

6:05

that thing and I it to be perfectly

6:07

frank as everyone you dawson a real Madrid

6:10

where his t's the even before i went

6:12

but once i got that ah. Yes

6:15

you do. I remember speaking to directors

6:17

before actually arrived in Barcelona when they

6:19

I met them in London telling the

6:22

the significance in the fact that you

6:24

know it is real Madrid is seen

6:26

as Franco's team and that to the

6:28

only place that you could speak Catalan

6:30

at one point was in the stadiums

6:33

some of them in one of the

6:35

director says oddly enough I was in

6:37

jail for that and it's so the

6:39

has is that history which which is

6:42

obviously why they probably couldn't miss Kim

6:44

Moscow clothes. And it's you

6:46

know it's because it's more than

6:48

just about it football and says

6:50

i'm it was I in a

6:52

certain yes that guess you learn

6:54

that very quickly own when you

6:56

arrived in in in Barcelona and

6:59

I think it's possibly more imports

7:01

barcelona than them round Madrid that

7:03

the perhaps the political aspect of

7:05

it as you would expect an

7:07

item not because I have a

7:09

certain place around threads that some

7:11

yeah. Yeah,

7:14

it was. It's is something that

7:16

you learn very quickly on a

7:18

new understand. The significance in many

7:20

ways goes beyond football. Dell

7:23

the out of l thing in his office about

7:25

bus the build up so it's Trotsky play in

7:27

it. Was it different? The other games. That.

7:30

An expert supply about yourself. Massively.

7:33

Different said, massively different.

7:35

Certain insect certainly seems

7:37

that misfit. I mean,

7:40

I arrived at some as the countdown.

7:47

Iraq. And.

7:52

And I played in ads are

7:54

a number of games in the

7:56

Count on Isis Alice. The

8:00

be kind of move. What? the animals. More.

8:03

Volatile, Island Loud and the up it

8:05

was actually was. It's kind of like

8:07

a middle class audience. It was his

8:10

thirty six seem like you were at

8:12

the opera that kind of waiting for

8:14

something to happen. then they can be

8:16

polite applause or it's I don't like

8:18

you have sent away for and seasons

8:21

have some well as bunkers and downs

8:23

and whistles. Arms. And

8:25

it was seem to be down. She

8:27

used to entertain them rather than get

8:29

them to get you up in a

8:31

thoughts of misunderstand the spheres we had

8:33

in England but then it was sudden

8:35

it was his his. Communal.

8:37

Said your own when I played in the

8:40

first classic oh in Barcelona. On

8:42

already played as Stubborn About the Is

8:44

talking about. Come now know. And

8:47

they recycle. Law suits be

8:50

different. Same incredibles alert. Much

8:52

difference to English Sunday then

8:54

and or it's changed a

8:56

little bit. Think

8:58

any wife says. He's

9:00

eager anyways. onto the ground says in

9:02

that the camp now then held hundred

9:04

and twenty thousand people. And

9:08

and pretty much every single one of them

9:10

was if there was a Barcelona pharmacists around

9:13

the dreaded son in there that have kept

9:15

says that have been quiet us and and

9:17

the role in the noise when he came

9:19

up with son of a nice good suing

9:22

the first five minutes a night or notes

9:24

tank noom time to get around from have

9:26

never thought we should other with superb as

9:28

a shadow of a piece of straight such

9:31

a success the attacks on us good to

9:33

in the first five years and I've never

9:35

ever in my life experience the noise or

9:37

enough for. Spare or of feeling like

9:40

goose bumps on nobody respects I

9:42

mean hundred and twenty thousand people

9:44

that sites times to the normal

9:46

big game and in this country

9:48

so I mean it was just

9:50

as everyone was on your sauce

9:52

on it. The interesting thing was

9:54

this with because we went three

9:56

up in that game when when

9:58

Real Madrid schooled. I

10:00

don't you have been disallowed. Because.

10:02

There was no noise those know a

10:04

single cheer up possibly except wrote than

10:06

the and Balco with for one of

10:08

his it's know presidency of Real Madrid.

10:10

Oh so thats by side. From that

10:12

you could you could hear a pin

10:15

drop. The thoughts on spinoff size. Of.

10:17

Own notice a goal because is no license.

10:20

For that the as it is it's very different city

10:23

or the game sites. Like with the other games I

10:25

think they expect it to win. And

10:28

also they expect you to entertain

10:30

them before they're getting some. It

10:32

is. So. They also they do get

10:34

excited because you score a hat trick. Was a

10:36

fool out of the from not like I'm a

10:38

habit of how. Are you got

10:40

report as your doorstep? Have you got kind

10:42

of a said split for for the following

10:44

week that everyone's all over the use the

10:46

you've done something truly historic? Our time for

10:48

the list of of people in school hat

10:50

tricks or think of any come up with

10:52

seven in touch with the service of have

10:54

gotten a pretty good like oh god well

10:56

this this this thing is sixteen in in

10:58

all competitions with the snowy this amount of

11:01

go through all of them bucks and scovell

11:03

alagiah come on is going. To

11:06

get a forgive know get a paper when

11:09

he says. It out and out and

11:11

as a submissive really get that

11:13

he said in there and of

11:15

the see terrorism is is one

11:17

of them. So yeah but with

11:19

lot of was the follow us

11:21

on it was a massive change

11:23

and not not just dumb in

11:25

terms of how I was a

11:27

thing conceived of also recognized and

11:29

access. right?

11:34

That chasing? They're not the kind

11:37

of people that don't stand firm.

11:39

Do I never had that night?

11:41

I don't think that's probably changed.

11:44

I'm not. People

11:46

were always respectful on of ago in

11:48

ways that. They. Didn't.

11:51

Fall. The quite as much as they did

11:53

when I was here but after that that

11:55

guy who's oversee massive recognition. It was the

11:57

first time as well that that that I'd

11:59

been about. Where do the British

12:01

press contagion that came out for that

12:03

game? So to this I kind of

12:05

did a press conference in the and

12:08

Princess to see after the games filled

12:10

a Brit thoughts on and they were

12:12

much more likely to doorstep. It's an

12:14

established and swaths of the other thing.

12:16

I loved him and in my sorry

12:18

boss unless they weren't interested in new

12:20

private lives like they were it was

12:23

like oh wow Yemen got a sneak

12:25

out If you want to go anywhere

12:27

of you can an avid nights out

12:29

No I'm. No one's gonna report

12:31

your of the innovative read about that in

12:33

the newspapers. really they might not. it was

12:36

so it's more enjoyable in that was the

12:38

thing is definitely changed after that point a

12:40

means to do that was was was a

12:42

game changer for me as I did sleep

12:45

on north of again. At just

12:47

go back to solve the the cultural differences

12:49

that you'd be you touched upon. Obviously you

12:51

are rise up. Up up

12:54

our stone us and there was an English

12:56

manager. Dad did that. Help

12:58

you are Terry Venables to that

13:00

help your simulations or was it

13:02

still a big saying in as

13:04

the this is really really different

13:06

how everything is done here is

13:08

so different. Oath or did Terry

13:10

Venables been there? Help have hope

13:12

I think it was probably have

13:14

a nice missiles precursor to it

13:16

and the apes is there a

13:18

season and little bit on and

13:20

we became very close as you

13:22

friends which is really amusing for

13:24

boots of like a relationship with

13:26

a coach. And

13:29

don't think that would. it's. Would.

13:31

Have happened Ever in English Football In

13:33

front of Terry became a coach. It's

13:35

on them when I went to England

13:37

and we didn't have that kind of

13:39

relationship and we are awesome and I'm

13:41

am. I think it's very unusual cause

13:43

we we got to lunch together with

13:45

have dinner together sometimes. In

13:48

without of times and marcuse come

13:50

along. That's a bit of an

13:52

English, but I know what I

13:54

was one to help. The.

13:57

Spanish place. what they saw

14:00

about that, whether they even knew, I said

14:02

perhaps they did, I don't know. But

14:05

it was unusual and I think it

14:07

helped, I think it helped. But I

14:10

also was, I

14:12

really wanted to try and settle in and

14:14

sort of feel the

14:16

culture, learn the language. So I

14:18

went to school three days a week, for

14:21

two years actually, to

14:23

learn Spanish, which I

14:25

think was a really important thing because,

14:28

not Catalan, because the dressing room was,

14:30

it was Spanish spoken in there really,

14:33

because not all the players were from

14:35

Catalonia obviously. So it

14:37

was a Spanish-speaking dressing room, so I learned that language.

14:39

And then I think that helped,

14:41

it helps you settle in and then you become friends

14:44

with the players, you can converse properly without

14:46

going through an interpreter, even

14:49

though we had a

14:51

very good interpreter in

14:53

Grafamtürne. Grafamtürne. Grafamtürne. Grafamtürne.

14:55

And so, yeah, I think

14:57

that was important, but it was culturally different

15:00

in many ways, but in good ways. Siesta,

15:03

siesta. Whoa, how good are they?

15:05

We used to go, I mean,

15:07

what a life. You train in

15:09

the morning, in the sunshine usually,

15:12

in the sunshine, not on very good facilities,

15:14

I have to say at that point, because you

15:16

used to train on the pitch that was

15:18

right next to the new camp, and now

15:20

it's part of the car park. Yeah, it was

15:23

next to the between La Macia and the

15:25

new camp. Next to La Macia, next to

15:27

La Macia, that's right. And it wasn't even really

15:29

a full-size pitch, and it was sandy, and

15:31

it was hopeless

15:34

really. I mean, now they've got this incredible setup

15:36

with the

15:38

whole training ground stuff. But back

15:40

then, so we had that, that was like next door.

15:43

So you, a couple of hours in the morning, then

15:45

you'd go home, we'd go to

15:47

the beach club and have a little bit

15:49

of lunch, nice playa and some lovely

15:52

seafood, and then you'd go home, we'd

15:54

get home about five, six o'clock, and we

15:56

found that day, two or three hours' kick. And

16:00

then you go out, I mean it's pointless trying to go

16:02

out in Spain back then, it's changed a little bit, it's

16:04

a bit earlier now, but it's still much later than Monday.

16:07

So then we go out for dinner around 10, 10.30

16:09

at night. There's no rest, there'd be

16:11

no one in the restaurant before 10 o'clock. And

16:15

then you end up kind of getting over one

16:17

or two, and so you split your sleep. I

16:20

mean, what a lifestyle, why wouldn't anyone love

16:22

that? In one of the most beautiful

16:24

cities in the world. So

16:27

let's say it

16:29

was different culturally, and you know, sat

16:33

in the early days when you

16:35

can't talk to people properly, it

16:38

was a little bit difficult, and

16:40

you feel anyway. We lived in

16:42

a hotel for four months before

16:44

we found a little villa, and

16:46

so it was difficult, but

16:48

difficult in a lovely, lovely way. And

16:51

everyone was super helpful. Just

16:53

pick up on Terry a little bit. There's

16:56

obviously, there's been a huge amount

16:58

of discussion over the last, I would say certainly

17:00

post-Croix, but in particular it kind

17:02

of re-emerged in the Guardiola era, and it's now

17:05

something that Chavi and Luis and Rika have been

17:07

talking about this week, this whole big argument about

17:09

Barcelona's identity and its DNA and what it is

17:11

that really makes Barcelona. Is

17:14

there a sense, for you at

17:16

least, that some of what Terry did to

17:19

change things has been overlooked? Some of the

17:21

tactical innovations, the very, very high press, the

17:23

being very, very aggressive with the ball. Because

17:25

this is a guy that leads Barcelona, admittedly

17:28

just before you get there, but I'm sure they're still doing

17:30

some of the same things when you are there. Leads Barcelona

17:32

into a first league title in 13 years, I think it

17:34

is, maybe 14. He

17:37

was genuinely different, right?

17:41

Very much so. And he didn't

17:43

even come with a particularly English

17:46

style, really. He's playing this high

17:48

line, high press. And

17:52

I think when he first came in the first few games,

17:54

Terry said to me, they thought, what the

17:56

hell is this? What are we trying to do here? But

17:59

he ran away with it. He batted round the

18:01

grid in the burner bar and

18:04

transformed things. It was

18:06

a shame really that he got fired when he did.

18:08

I think about four or five games into the season

18:10

with like one drawn, one

18:12

lost one or something else. It wasn't

18:14

like the worst start in the history of football. But

18:19

yeah, Terry was, I mean he

18:21

was ahead of his time coaching wise Terry. There's

18:23

no question about that. I

18:25

think ultimately the biggest change and the biggest

18:27

influence on Barcelona has to be

18:30

Ein Kroy. I mean he

18:32

changed the way that the

18:35

game was played at the club and the way they

18:37

thought in the academies

18:39

and in La Masilla,

18:41

etc. I think so.

18:44

But I mean whenever I go

18:46

back, you

18:48

have to be of a certain age of course to remember Terry's

18:51

time at the club and my time at the club. So

18:54

a lot of people do and they

18:56

always remember him very, very fondly and

18:59

tactically very clever, which he

19:02

was. And the players had massive amount of respect for

19:04

him, I could tell that. Your

19:06

hat-trick, which is the very end of January 1987, two

19:08

weeks later you go and stick four

19:14

past Spain at the burner bar for England.

19:17

So at that point is there a sense in

19:19

Spain and I suppose in your own mind of

19:21

bloody hell this guy's quite good. Well

19:24

to be honest it was only around that stage because

19:26

I was sort of blagging it a bit really. I

19:29

thought I was getting, you know, because I wasn't the kind of,

19:31

I wasn't even like messing with you. Welcome to

19:33

our world Gary. Well that's it, you know. Yeah,

19:35

yeah, another feeling. You know I scored loads

19:38

of goals but I wasn't like, you know,

19:41

the kind of player that could dribble past two

19:43

or three people and knock it in the top

19:45

corner or have long range efforts. I

19:48

just kind of worked out how to score

19:50

goals by movement and gambling on

19:52

space. So, you know,

19:54

but around this stage, in fact that

19:57

is the very game and I remember

19:59

scoring. my fourth goal in the Burnabout

20:01

to make it four to running

20:03

back to halfway line. Brian Robson's run alongside me and

20:05

I turned to him and I went, why

20:09

am I so lucky? And he

20:11

turned to me and he just went, oh

20:13

fuck off. Which

20:16

I thought was quite a nice boss. But

20:19

even that game was special as well because we

20:21

flew over with the Barcelona players. I

20:23

met the England team in Madrid because it would have been

20:26

mad to me to go to London and come out with

20:28

them. So I met them there, so I

20:30

flew on the little hop from

20:32

Barcelona to Madrid with half a

20:34

dozen Barcelona players, including the goalkeeper

20:36

and Donny Zuber, so that's it.

20:39

And they were giving me loads of shit,

20:41

how are we going to do it? The

20:43

usual banter, I mean it's just the same,

20:46

that doesn't change anywhere in the world that

20:48

I've played in, honestly. The dressing room banter

20:50

and the Mickey taking is just the same.

20:54

So we go and play the game and

20:56

obviously Terry Venables is still then the coach

20:58

of Barcelona. Terry Spanish

21:00

was pretty good, it was acceptable,

21:03

it was grammatically struggling a little

21:05

bit. I like his English, someone would say.

21:09

And so he obviously

21:12

sometimes picked up a few English bits

21:14

and stuff that players that I've played with, so we

21:16

played the game and we went forward too. I

21:19

go in the dressing room at the end of the machine, I'm sick. And

21:23

Donny Zuber-Feretta comes in, comes

21:26

in our dressing room and he just came up to me and

21:28

he just came up to me and he went, Fucking

21:30

hell, in a perfect cockney

21:33

accent. Bless

21:37

you, he was a great guy,

21:39

Zubi. But yeah, that was one

21:42

hell of a month. But

21:45

my best bit about it, my best bit

21:47

about it was the next morning, you know

21:49

the spot? Yeah. The newspaper

21:51

in Barcelona, the local newspaper, the

21:53

headline on that paper was my

21:56

favourite headline ever. Catalan Player

21:58

scores four against three. So

22:03

vet vad value all is a perfectly

22:05

body honorable the classical raised with but

22:07

you know he was executive's guy who's

22:09

you Barcelona man is is has done

22:11

this for for as yeah as soon

22:13

as you are Soon as you mentioned

22:15

say says always it for local I

22:17

guess is as always the local I'd

22:19

rather have gone averse. Did you mentioned

22:21

Christ and. Is covered all good

22:23

one I suppose you person is that the

22:25

cloisters this price revolutionary sega. But.

22:28

He's also the one that. Part

22:30

of ends at both. Yes, he

22:32

did earn and I get it.

22:34

Does dance again. There's a junior

22:36

Nancy from. In

22:38

his dominance. And

22:40

a new coach comes in. He

22:43

get his that he probably wants his own

22:46

form plus he wants his sons who he

22:48

does it does rather than just a to

22:50

the earned his assets. I also saw that

22:52

season with hepatitis so I didn't play insulin.

22:54

I'm. Not too late

22:56

October, November something on it's on an

22:58

adventure. Go in the storm on have

23:01

any place you in the when. I

23:04

was out stray away. There's no way

23:06

I shouldn't have been playing since the

23:08

food and nothing to see of Salinas's

23:10

is very good goalscorer a lovely gone

23:12

into bits of faded no more echoed

23:15

on and. And the

23:17

way his team and the football that

23:19

he played. I. Would have

23:21

been perfect for the number nine in

23:23

that particular some. States

23:27

but. I. Think

23:29

he just wants his own form plan

23:31

and his plan was play Now position

23:33

our mon. The said

23:35

either the public who guys another for both

23:37

moaning about his position and above Law and

23:39

out and an hour ask for transfer but

23:41

I I kind of sold out. A so

23:44

what was going on says a will have

23:46

no know how to play the game was

23:48

planning on going down with it's quite easy

23:50

prey on the wings boring. Oil

23:53

lodgers go to such can. I was quite

23:55

critical for the process. smoking costs. I mean,

23:57

I've got no satisfaction. Hobbies good and. Go

24:00

into that season of ruined my

24:02

goal scoring ratio avast thought and

24:05

at and senators aren't so it

24:07

was it was it difficult season

24:09

from we are absolute miss it

24:12

but. In. The and because

24:14

I kept my com and I just got

24:16

on with it I was professional a cat

24:18

plan our position kept plenary session just double

24:20

asked me to do. A

24:23

plane most the games substitute me to costs

24:25

you times at half time. I think he

24:27

was seals turn around me so that I'd

24:30

be the one that goes into the problem.

24:32

got? I wanna leave. More

24:35

is should have done. For. He should

24:37

have done was come to me at

24:40

this were at the very start saying

24:42

scary not sure if it's my plans

24:44

you get your moves is valuable to

24:46

foreign players are kind of one year

24:49

on improvement over the and someone who

24:51

have money gets an Oregon. No.

24:53

Problem or subsidies on understand And

24:55

but that's no, I've worked. Superbowl

24:57

That never happens, Know never ever

24:59

happens. So we went service Rigmarole

25:01

for you both In that way,

25:03

I learned a lot. a hell

25:05

of a lot because even as

25:07

he was an unbelievable play but

25:09

he was also an incredible coach.

25:11

I I learnt so much from

25:13

his training sessions and how he

25:15

was and how it's how when

25:17

we got the ball you gonna

25:19

make his pitches because she possibly

25:21

can and when you've not. Got

25:23

the boat on, make it smaller.

25:26

You can't answer aussi do space

25:28

how it was a lot possession

25:30

football. Seven against five, nine, Again,

25:32

seven for against. all these kind

25:34

of different ways And he was.

25:37

He was in know it'll be over,

25:39

it was not not just about soap

25:42

about everything in life he was, let's

25:44

say, didn't like confidence. But.

25:46

These are the sign was so

25:48

it's spent most my time just

25:50

kind of really concentrate. Amazon.

25:57

Animals were incredible. Coaches.

26:01

On. The face of a if I'm in

26:03

close of a soup, haven't played football, haven't

26:05

been involved in the game is. it feels

26:07

almost strange to imagine a scenario which. In

26:10

this case you button it's like any professional

26:12

would have. I missed a suit a guy's

26:14

been to woke up a guy, a guy

26:16

who's who's played in England is playing and

26:18

spines but and lots of the for manages

26:20

been hugely successful. it seems almost inconceivable. the

26:22

a manager concern up. And show you

26:25

something that you'd never considered before that you've

26:27

never thought about never seen as having. Other.

26:30

That is a Be. I don't even know what

26:32

the question is in a way that I suppose

26:34

because this is how. how can he manages to

26:36

see? How can you not have seen something? Or

26:38

matter, how can a man just see something the

26:40

whole load of life hasn't still happening. that

26:42

what pets do is read that in

26:44

the game every is it I still

26:46

have a diverse is full backs and

26:48

stuff and people are so thing would

26:50

have handled obe would it really did

26:53

it is now is in central defender

26:55

come in and play like all over

26:57

the pitch like johnston sisters and fit

26:59

pupil dropped him for hims of says

27:01

the guy who constantly running slow be

27:03

like classes it goes around comes around

27:05

but i think just with the research

27:07

paper with an incredible minds for the

27:09

game that see things I always saw

27:11

the game through. It said to foods I.

27:14

That. Was that that? That was all I

27:16

target? Ice. Source

27:18

about constantly even before I go to

27:20

bed at night when I wake of

27:22

in the morning or I'm thinking about

27:25

his house as school goes. How to

27:27

do this? How to do that. I

27:29

didn't think of the game as as

27:31

beyond. Whereas there are people that that

27:33

do this, a load of coaches and

27:36

them some of them have played for,

27:38

some of them have watched over the

27:40

is basically go along familiar lines. They

27:42

they said very good at organizing a

27:44

certain way of plays, but. Do.

27:47

They reinvent the game. Know that

27:49

someone might cross. and

27:51

i would say i'd put sorry venables in

27:54

there as well because of the with the

27:56

war he brought this to spanish football when

27:58

he he brought to barcelona But,

28:01

but Kreut was something else. He

28:04

was incredibly intelligent and inventive and

28:06

I think that's that's the

28:08

difference. I know you can think well football should know

28:11

all the different systems and how to

28:13

play certain positions and everyone should be

28:15

able to play in every position. That was the whole ethos

28:18

wasn't it that came out of the Dutch football,

28:20

total football and stuff. Everyone should be able to

28:22

play everywhere but he but

28:24

he kind of proved that

28:26

in a way. Although

28:29

he probably failed when he put me on the right wing. No

28:34

it was it was incredible. I always

28:36

have massive respect. I

28:38

was irritated by it. It was a difficult year.

28:40

I got it though. I understood

28:42

it but would I

28:44

swap that year and how much I

28:46

learned about football from it? No. Obviously

28:49

after Barcelona, Barcelona was kind of

28:51

like a stepping stone to reach the

28:53

pinnacle of football which is obviously

28:55

playing the Tottenham Hotspur football club and

28:59

any professional. We'll agree I'm sure.

29:02

So you came back to England after

29:04

this you know really enriching experience away

29:07

and won a few trophies, learned a

29:09

lot, scored some goals, learned the language

29:12

and then you're back in England. My question

29:14

is you know you you went away and you

29:16

weren't necessarily a pioneer but there weren't too many

29:18

English players that had played in Spain before

29:21

you or since. So why

29:23

is it that there aren't that many English

29:25

players who've made the leap and come to

29:27

Spain or even abroad that much? Well we're

29:30

starting to see a little bit of change.

29:32

One or two of our younger players are

29:34

going now for the experience and they can lie

29:36

down that because mostly in Italy that they went

29:38

you know there were as you said there wasn't

29:41

the numbers like there are now but the game's

29:43

kind of become more global as in everyone's moving

29:45

around and it's not. But

29:47

yeah it was kind of a bit of an upheaval

29:50

in some ways. I'm actually I'm

29:53

still post-war

29:56

the only Englishman to play

29:58

for Barcelona. Obviously

30:01

it's come from the girls that played

30:03

for Barcelona women, but I'm

30:05

the only English man, obviously Mark Hughes

30:07

as well, Steve Archibald was Scottish. I

30:11

kind of like that. I

30:13

just hope they don't sign you know. They've

30:16

gone get Harry Kane in a couple of

30:18

years time. No I don't

30:21

mind, but yeah it's a mad statistic

30:23

that is, and all the time, I

30:25

mean, Real Madrid does loads of, by

30:28

comparison, English players obviously, but

30:31

yeah I'm the only one. Yeah it's nuts. They've

30:34

got a good one now, Real Madrid,

30:36

in terms of English players in Jude

30:39

Bellingham. Just kind of want to get your

30:42

thoughts on him as a player and how

30:44

he's developed over this year

30:46

and how impressive he's been. Beyond

30:48

impressive really. To do that in your first

30:51

season, to almost become the

30:53

leader of a club like Real

30:55

Madrid, and Real Madrid

30:57

for crying out loud. It's a guy. Yeah

30:59

it's not like he's turned up the rubbish, is

31:02

he? He's turned up at the biggest level. He's

31:04

so young still, yet so mature.

31:08

You know even the way he handles himself, the

31:11

things he says, after

31:13

the game in his interviews he's

31:16

got obviously, he's incredibly articulate, very

31:18

intelligent, you can see that on

31:20

the field of play. But

31:23

his all round game is, I mean,

31:25

it's just superb. I've

31:29

met him a couple of

31:31

times, and he's humble, but

31:33

he's also driven. He's really driven.

31:35

And you can see he's the kind of player

31:38

that will lift the team when they really need

31:40

it. Get them out of the

31:42

hole when they really need it. You never give

31:44

up. You know, he can do it

31:46

all, he can put in a tackle, he can chase

31:48

back. He's brilliant. I

31:51

mean, I love watching him play, and he's not afraid

31:53

to try a trick and a turn and a twist

31:55

and a little back heel and a flick. He's

31:58

also quite adept at scoring a very late game. Important

32:00

goal in the game is she's done

32:02

numerous times have to Real Madrid the

32:04

season of. Single

32:06

most the same to say the

32:08

Us kind of that sometimes shade

32:11

of brown into his goal. And

32:13

because he said which is a really peculiar

32:15

fairly because as anyone to play for

32:18

Barcelona for future see it is doubtful

32:20

Roman into their wealth spot one aims

32:22

to their wealth says been starts as been

32:24

It's been a difficult difficult few months

32:26

for me on them of thoughts hope

32:28

your thoughts are with me at this difficult

32:30

job slightest would eliminate is your ideal

32:32

swastika result and I have all three

32:34

ball find a way in which I

32:36

didn't get a hundred thousand. He doesn't matter

32:38

always Robin Average is a definite our

32:40

rise across your boy had said cynical

32:42

for Alex. Is gonna say isn't get

32:45

her okay yeah I just I don't

32:47

either I don't want and I don't

32:49

think another Englishman is good are tricky

32:51

that Russia or less just so do

32:53

Okay dude, You've

32:55

got to love hundred the decided he did

32:57

he go to lessen your own. in fact

33:00

it was venmo as he got had to

33:02

come. Yeah third easy to go through it

33:04

does the first european since name. To

33:06

score has to go in the classical. I

33:10

digging ourself of on this but it's is my

33:12

of that tactic is my only trying to sign

33:14

really says you've you've said something earlier of our

33:16

i feel I feel the need to pick up

33:19

on this. You. Again

33:21

now that we took my this you just said. Final:

33:24

Right wing's easy so does this mean

33:26

we got five thing but the and

33:28

almost he did a wide as if

33:30

it is easily as a boy plus

33:32

side of out of their highway system.

33:34

Fathomable waiters are mean If the specific

33:36

messier of Barcelona was among some of

33:38

the is I was most of the

33:40

is a mean. Just

33:43

extraordinary game stick game. He was

33:45

just incredible. I think I mean

33:48

I don't think. mean

33:50

a lot of people understand the lot

33:52

cleveland's done nothing from the game understand

33:55

breasts as me to this but it's

33:57

hard to work out how he can

33:59

do how he does the

34:01

things that he does. I'm not just talking about

34:03

the goals because people are going yeah but but

34:05

he's got about the same amount of goals as

34:08

so-and-so, Ronaldo and all that. It's not about that.

34:10

It's about the things he does

34:13

that are not possible and he'll

34:15

do three or four of those things at least

34:17

in every game where he'll be just in a

34:19

little pocket where there's about five players around him

34:21

you think hey that's no way out of there

34:23

and it's like d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d and then

34:26

he's you go how how I

34:28

never played at the top level and

34:30

I know other people that have played at the top level

34:33

and he's the best river I've

34:35

ever seen along with possibly Diego I think

34:37

he's the only comparison but he's also the

34:40

best passer of a football I've ever seen.

34:42

You see things that you can't see even

34:44

I remember sitting watching a Champions League game

34:46

I think it was the one which

34:49

eventually they lost the second leg against Liverpool you

34:51

know the mad comeback and we

34:54

were watching the girls with Rio and we you know

34:56

you write up in the gods when you don't you

34:58

know what it's like up in that press thing there

35:00

so yeah and we're looking down and he

35:04

sees a proof that

35:07

we couldn't see looking at the whole

35:09

picture and you go and we

35:11

I remember we both turned to each other we just went how

35:16

how how do you do that and

35:18

he continues to do that all the time he just it

35:21

just takes it takes your breath away and he's I'm

35:23

so glad I've experienced watching him

35:25

in my my life since I

35:27

finished playing because he's given me

35:29

you know almost two decades of

35:31

absolute joy and yeah

35:34

it'll be I mean obviously he's

35:36

kind of semi-retired now along with

35:38

as as Cristiano but they

35:41

would admit that but we know where he's headed if I said yeah

35:47

so yeah but yeah I mean

35:50

yeah I would never ever ever

35:52

compare myself ever with

35:54

Lionel Messi other than the fact that I did stand

35:56

in the same area of the pitch for a little

35:59

while And

36:01

for you running very straight lines. Very straight

36:03

lines, no jinking. And there was

36:05

no point whatsoever where anyone of the 120,000 Barcelona fans,

36:07

when I was surrounded

36:10

by four players, have ever gone, how

36:13

did he get out of that? Because

36:15

he never did. He

36:18

would have just given the ball away. Fallen

36:21

over, probably. In all

36:23

of this, there's one other thing I wanted to pick up, ask you

36:25

about from a purely footballing point of view.

36:28

You were talking earlier about learning how to score

36:30

goals. I can't

36:32

remember when it was, but you mentioned this

36:34

once before, that learning from

36:36

watching people and in particular from watching

36:39

Hugo Sanchez, that you're sort of seeing

36:41

things that in terms of where to

36:43

be, that you maybe wouldn't

36:45

have contemplated if you hadn't seen other people do

36:47

it. Yeah, Hugo Sanchez was at Real Madrid at

36:49

the time for the young people that don't know

36:51

how to play. And

36:53

he was a Mexican striker, very diminutive, unbelievably

36:57

athletic. I

36:59

think his sister was an Olympic gymnast,

37:01

sorry. And he used to score

37:03

overhead kicks, like four, five seasons. He

37:06

was so agile that he'd deliberately take

37:08

a player in, he'd come out to

37:10

the far close, take the defender in

37:12

a bit, and then wait for a

37:14

long cross and turn his back on

37:17

the defender and then do these incredible

37:19

bike kicks. That's not what I learnt,

37:21

because all I'd learnt from that is how to break

37:23

my back. What

37:25

I did learn from him was his move, his

37:27

from corner kicks. And

37:30

I think he added three or four goals a season

37:32

onto my repertoire, because

37:34

I watched him, I watched him really closely

37:37

in all the games. And his

37:39

movement was kind of similar to mine in lots

37:41

of ways, except for that thing about taking people

37:43

to the far post. I was more of a

37:46

near postman. But at

37:48

corner kicks he'd stand on the goalkeeper. And

37:51

as it came over, because

37:53

she used up one defender one side,

37:55

the goalkeeper the other, and if the defender tried

37:57

to get in front of him, he would back

37:59

up. two yards, if the defender tried

38:01

to get behind him, he'd come forward

38:04

two yards and basically all he'd find

38:06

himself was a yard or two

38:08

of space at a corner kick and then someone would

38:11

flick it on at a near post and

38:13

he's there and he's got back a tap

38:15

in. And I thought, God, he does that. And

38:17

I watched it and I watched it. And

38:20

I start, it was a very very easy thing to do

38:22

to add to my game and you get kind of like

38:24

on the half turn and if it's headed down you

38:27

get a really good chance. Prime

38:29

example and it

38:31

was probably the most Ugo

38:34

Sanchez goal I scored in my career. It was

38:36

a corner for England when we were, I think

38:38

we had to draw against Poland to qualify for

38:41

the 1992 Euros. And

38:44

David Brokaw had knocked in a corner, somebody

38:46

headed it and I'd done

38:48

exactly that. I'd just pulled off a couple of yards

38:51

and kind of scissor kicked it. I

38:53

wouldn't describe this bicycle kick, I'd call it a scissor

38:55

kick. But it

38:57

was purely from him, purely from watching

38:59

him. So you

39:01

can always learn even when you're in a

39:04

specialist position as a centre forward

39:06

is. But

39:08

Ugo was fantastic. And I saw

39:11

him recently at the Museum in

39:13

Madrid and he was there. And

39:21

because I didn't get the match ball in the

39:23

Classic Co, they did some research and said that

39:25

they found one. But it certainly became kind of

39:27

ball. If it was the same ball that I

39:29

actually scored the three goals in, I'd

39:32

be sort of staggered. But nevertheless,

39:36

he played in that game. So he very

39:38

kindly signed it for me, which

39:41

feels very special because he's, I think he was

39:43

the best of my time. He's

39:48

still the holder of the most ridiculous record in

39:51

football, I think. When he scored in the 1989-90 season, 38 goals, all

39:53

with one touch. No

39:58

one's ever going to do that again. That's just a ridiculous

40:00

record. Unbelievable. His first touch is a finish because

40:02

he can't control. I can't control it. I might

40:04

as well shoot. That was a little bit similar

40:07

in that sense. We were, but

40:10

he was so special. Honestly, he was

40:12

so special. I think it broke his heart that

40:14

I won the Golden Boot in 1986 in his country. Which

40:18

he said, yeah, I said you were the best man. You

40:20

were the best he said, yeah, but you did

40:22

it in my country. I

40:24

think that's quite hard on him at World Cup because it didn't

40:27

really hurt him for him. But he

40:29

wasn't playing a side that was as good as Real Madrid then. No,

40:31

no. I remember that World Cup really clearly, the

40:33

build up to it. They sensed that this is

40:35

going to be his moment. And it just

40:38

wasn't. He didn't even score Mexico's

40:40

best goal because of course Negrete got that one. That

40:42

was a proper bicycle kick. I'm going to leave it

40:45

there. Gary, thank you very

40:47

much for joining us. It's been great to

40:49

speak to you about El

40:51

Clasico, Barcelona, Ugo Sanchez. Fantastic.

40:54

Thanks very much for talking to us. Absolute

40:57

pleasure. I'm looking forward to El Clasico at

40:59

the weekend. And I feel

41:02

the worst a bit. I think

41:04

Barcelona got some really special kids, but it's a big ask

41:06

to go there. Particularly after

41:08

that defeat. Obviously

41:10

we were recording this just before Real Madrid

41:13

play Manchester City. It's

41:15

after the first leg 3-3. So it's been

41:19

an interesting one. I

41:21

will be cheering Manchester City out on actually

41:23

obviously because there's a Barcelona man. As will

41:26

every Barcelona fan. But

41:28

that's going to be a great game. Can't wait to watch it.

41:30

And then the Clasico at the weekend. If

41:34

Real Madrid lose, then both teams

41:36

are going to it in a bit of a downer. But

41:39

if there's any game that it doesn't matter

41:41

what's happened before, it's so classical. Let me

41:43

just throw that last one at you then,

41:45

seeing as you've brought it up. So there's

41:47

some really special players coming through at Barcelona.

41:49

How good do you think La

41:52

Minamal can be? I mean how do

41:54

you say how good? I think he can

41:56

be an absolutely world-class player.

42:00

Incredible ability I'm I'm in a

42:02

way it goes to plastic of

42:04

the players owns. The first go

42:06

was nothing that jumps leading get

42:09

against Psg before it all went

42:11

tits up with harassers read cause

42:13

I'm still seeing the keys more

42:15

got that? Such a dinner party

42:17

much alas I think is or

42:19

think he said the special massively

42:22

talented and but this a few

42:24

of them to pacify. I mean

42:26

really I mean how good his

42:28

face mad because we. Eat.

42:31

I use of a new mild young sixty

42:34

Seven seems to be kind of the same

42:36

ages, hence the kind of expected from the

42:38

plays with the talent Nick They can do

42:40

things in France but a play with responsibility

42:42

of plant the back is different. In

42:44

different. Countries

42:48

and then the of this is it

42:50

is a factory and as a in

42:52

and says i think the six best

42:54

definitely better types com a boss and

42:56

because they've got some some incredible nothing

42:58

generational talent that these are the most

43:00

one of them and i'm about com

43:02

member of the since in two different

43:04

coming back good at that young now

43:06

last one i can think of to

43:08

be honest he suffered ramos but even

43:10

that's not really true because he was

43:12

right back up again might have been.

43:14

That just turned eighteen and at he was

43:17

he was obviously. I. Got

43:19

kind of a force of personality as much

43:21

as anything else when he first them in

43:23

for a site is or doesn't count. The

43:25

zoo's right back not nonsense about is very

43:27

rare. I'm in peak. had to go after

43:29

two months is you know. wanted to learn

43:31

a little bit didn't it in the early

43:33

days on our thoughts and will. Cause

43:36

I can't think of I will be a certain or was

43:38

brave as a youngster. But.

43:40

Yeah, we learn to bid at West Ham. going

43:43

into barcelona as i age and absolutely wasit

43:45

it and breaking the law in some burst

43:47

of ah yes i think he could be

43:49

something really special i don't i was hyped

43:51

says he sees this is the with terrified

43:53

of jinx into mom books you know given

43:56

a fair run and if he's asked which

43:58

he clearly has got the right city and

44:00

stuff then. The scars

44:02

limit for the chamomile and cabarsion, you

44:04

know, love and both. Well we'll see

44:06

what happens in the Clasico this weekend

44:08

and yeah it might be conditioned why

44:10

what happens in Real Madrid

44:12

or Manchester City. So we'll all

44:14

go off and watch that and then we'll watch

44:16

the Clasico this weekend. So Gary thanks again for

44:19

joining us it's been great and speak soon. Cheers

44:21

to you both. you