0:09

I don't care how I look to anyone for

0:12

how in love I am. It is

0:14

a blessing to

0:16

be in love. Some people go their whole lives,

0:19

whether it's because of a circumstance,

0:21

or being scared, or being too

0:24

guarded, or something, some people

0:26

go their whole lives without experiencing

0:28

love. Who am I? And

0:31

also on some ego shit, who do I think

0:33

I am to deny God

0:35

in that way? God is love,

0:37

love is God. Who am I

0:39

to deny that? As many

0:41

times as it presents itself in my life and every

0:44

single time it cracks me open further.

0:53

Hello listeners. My name is Aja Monet

0:56

and you are listening to The Sound

0:58

Bath, a podcast brought to you by Lush

1:00

Cosmetics. I am so very

1:02

excited about today's episode. We

1:05

have none other than Kehlani,

1:08

a cultural worker, singer,

1:11

songwriter, and dancer. Kehlani

1:13

is an incredible rising

1:15

star and artist in the world. She

1:17

is inspiring young people everywhere,

1:20

not just to listen

1:22

to her incredible music, but also to take

1:24

lead in the ways that she's grown and

1:27

healed and spiritually developed

1:29

over the years by taking better care

1:31

of herself and those she loves

1:33

in her life. It's been really wonderful

1:36

to see her journey and witness her as

1:38

an artist and the ways that she's evolved,

1:41

and I'm really, really grateful to consider

1:43

and call her a friend at this point in

1:46

my life and in some ways a little sister. So

1:49

please join me in listening to

1:51

this wonderful conversation with Kehlani.

2:00

Thank you so, so much for making

2:02

time in your schedule. I know that

2:05

you just got off a tour. There's

2:07

so much going on in your life I'm sure.

2:10

You're a mom. You're doing crazy

2:12

amazing things. You're selling out tours,

2:15

you're like living your

2:17

life-

2:17

Thank you.

2:17

... and so your time is precious.

2:19

And so I'm really, really grateful for your time.

2:21

I think I just want to check in with you and just see

2:24

how are you feeling today? How's your heart? How

2:26

is your body? How are you feeling in your current

2:28

state of self? How are you feeling?

2:30

I'm good. I'm super good.

2:32

I think I'm on the

2:35

other side of some days

2:37

that weren't so good and yet feel like the

2:39

first couple of days on the other side of that are

2:41

always super, super bright and fun because

2:43

it feels like it's the first

2:45

burst of clarity where everything that didn't make

2:47

sense leading up to this just all of a sudden

2:50

makes sense. So I

2:52

feel really good today. How do you feel today?

2:54

Good. Thank you. I

2:59

feel good. I feel grateful. I feel

3:01

really grateful.

3:02

I'm excited.

3:03

Yeah. So one

3:06

of my questions for you is the

3:08

world describes you in a lot of ways.

3:11

I'm sure there's

3:13

so many other ways that people have named

3:15

or see you in the world, and I wanted to give

3:17

you an opportunity to share how

3:19

you see yourself. So what are the ways that you like

3:21

to be seen and how would you like to be addressed

3:24

as a person in the world today?

3:27

I think that a lot of the ways in which I haven't

3:29

been seen for the last however

3:32

long I've been highly visible is just

3:34

not been very human. And

3:37

I think that I just am learning to really

3:39

put this emphasis on making sure people

3:41

see my humanity and really

3:43

see me as a human being before

3:45

they see things I've done or

3:48

things I've participated in or any

3:50

extension of me. I really just want to

3:53

always be seen as a human, which means

3:55

I'm capable of all

3:57

sorts of things. And I think that when people

3:59

don't see me as a human, when

4:01

something happens and it's a growing moment

4:03

for me, or it is a moment for

4:05

me to be able to change and show

4:08

that I've learned better and I can do better.

4:10

When you don't see me as a human and you experience

4:13

me go through that, it's like end

4:15

all, be all, end of the world because

4:17

you put me on this pedestal of this not

4:20

human thing, but if you see me as a

4:23

100% human all the time, you know that I'm always going

4:25

to have hiccups in which I need to grow and I need

4:27

to change. I need to get better. So

4:30

I think that I just don't put any

4:32

emphasis on too much

4:34

of what you see me as beyond that. Even

4:36

as far as pronouns go, I've loosened

4:38

up a lot on how heavy

4:41

I have that conversation. I'm just like, at this point I'm

4:43

cool with however you see me as. That's

4:45

always going to change. I might get into my 30s and be like, I might want

4:48

you to call me a man. I don't know. so

4:51

I just don't put myself into anything too

4:53

permanent or too boxed in at this point.

4:55

And there are certain scenarios where labels really help me

4:57

and they help me identify and learn myself and

5:00

express myself. But I'm kind of at this place right

5:02

now in this current moment where just everything is up

5:04

for fluidity.

5:05

Yeah. That sounds like the

5:08

name of the current game for

5:10

everyone. I feel at least this generation,

5:12

it's really exciting to see this generation

5:15

expanding and stretching how

5:17

people show up in the world and how

5:19

people identify. So I want to ask

5:21

you, you are rising

5:23

in your career in a time

5:25

where social media has been a huge

5:28

part of everybody's way

5:30

of sharing, expressing,

5:32

and communicating. And of course

5:34

there have been moments in your life where

5:37

things that you may have not wanted to be

5:39

shared was shared and disclosed

5:41

for the world to see. And so I wanted

5:43

to ask you, what is your relationship

5:45

to social media as an artist in the world

5:47

at this point? How do you create

5:50

boundaries? Do you have boundaries? What

5:52

do you see are some of the beauties of it and some of the

5:54

challenges that you feel at this moment

5:57

folks are not paying attention to or could

5:59

share a little bit more about?

6:01

Yeah, I think there's always

6:03

this hilarious

6:05

set of extremes with social media.

6:08

On one hand it's so fucking tight

6:10

to see my friends build entire

6:12

lives and careers without

6:14

having to attach themselves to a machine

6:17

or being backed by something

6:20

that would end up essentially

6:22

on some sell your soul shit. I think people use

6:24

that term way too intensely when it's

6:26

really just you've given up what makes your

6:29

soul free to

6:32

put it in some kind of a machine processor

6:34

type of thing. It's so cool

6:36

watching my friends develop

6:38

entire appreciative fan bases

6:41

and even building community with these

6:43

online opportunities. And

6:45

I've seen people make friends, lovers,

6:47

families, all type of things

6:50

off the online space.

6:51

So you got hooked up on surfing through

6:53

a friend on social media?

6:55

Exactly, exactly. I wouldn't have

6:57

started surfing if I didn't meet my friend who I met on

6:59

TikTok. There's so many things like that. People

7:01

are learning about their culture,

7:03

their religions, their mental

7:06

health. You can meet

7:08

spiritualists, therapists, all type

7:10

of people online. I think when it's a tool,

7:13

it's a fantastic tool. Now

7:16

the dangers of it, I think

7:18

it's so dangerous that any

7:21

and everyone can have a platform

7:24

to say whatever they want to say

7:26

without being vetted. And I'm not talking

7:28

about hate comments, I'm talking about misinformation.

7:31

I see so much detrimental,

7:34

wrong spiritual

7:37

information online

7:39

that can get people's lives

7:42

fucked with. I see so

7:44

much wrong health

7:47

advice, detrimental

7:49

fucking health, all

7:51

of these things that I'm just like, " Bro, you

7:54

will put somebody in the hospital, you'll land

7:56

somebody in a mental institution." You have to have

7:58

so much discernment existing

8:00

online to not be the person that watches

8:03

one video and says, " All right, yep, that's

8:05

it. This is how I'm going about something. This is what I'm doing."

8:07

And also you have to be really strong minded.

8:09

You have to know who you are outside

8:12

of the internet because if you come on the internet presenting

8:14

yourself, you have to know that

8:16

you could type one letter, one word,

8:19

and there were going to be lots of people waiting

8:22

to say whatever they want to say

8:24

about it. And you just have to

8:26

know who you are because if strangers

8:29

on their computers at home

8:32

can make you forget entirely

8:34

or question entirely who you are,

8:37

then that can be just super dangerous existing

8:39

in the world. And it took me a long

8:41

time to get there. I'm just now

8:44

in the last two years, someone

8:47

that the internet cannot flip upside

8:49

down because the internet used-

8:51

I wanted to talk about that.

8:51

The internet... I

8:54

was being held accountable for God knows what.

8:56

It got to the point where I think people just wanted to see me talk.

8:58

So it'd be like, " Is this actually wrong? Do

9:00

I have to apologize for this? Is this even

9:03

how I think? Am I thinking for myself

9:05

or did I just let this person think for me? Do

9:07

I look like this to myself? Do I think I look

9:09

like this? Do I think I act like this? What

9:11

even am I? Who even am I? Who

9:13

do I even like?" All of these things all

9:15

the time up until two years

9:17

ago, were always up in

9:19

the air because of social media.

9:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:23

I was going to say that some of the ways that I

9:25

heard about you for the first time was

9:27

through social media and other people sharing stories

9:30

about your life and who you were. But I

9:32

never really knew. I just was like, " Oh,

9:35

who's this artist? Let me go look up this music."

9:37

And then that's how it kind of got into the

9:39

world of your actual art. But sometimes

9:42

it's hard because social media will

9:44

make somebody's life bigger than the

9:46

thing that they love-

9:46

Absolutely.

9:46

... and that makes them,

9:49

that lights them up and actually inspires them. It's

9:51

the reason why they are who they are. And

9:53

so it's finding that fine line in this

9:56

here life.

9:56

Absolutely.

9:56

I wanted to ask you in an article,

9:59

which I never knew this until

10:01

reading about it, and it's really kind

10:03

of cool to hear that you prefer

10:06

the title cultural worker over artists.

10:08

Yeah.

10:09

As someone who considers themselves a cultural worker,

10:11

it's really dope because I feel like that is a statement

10:13

to say that .it is in the legacy

10:15

and in a tradition of other artists

10:18

who consider themselves cultural workers and really

10:20

knew what that meant. It is sort of a political

10:22

statement to make that distinction between

10:24

just being an artist versus being a cultural worker.

10:27

So I wanted to ask you more about what that means to you

10:29

and how you evolved to come to that sort of

10:31

conclusion about yourself in the world.

10:35

I had a friend who is an

10:37

activist and

10:40

they were gracious enough

10:42

at the time to educate me on

10:45

what difference that would make in my

10:47

life if I moved

10:50

forward with that as what

10:52

I decided to be. I very

10:54

much do

10:56

a lot of things behind the scenes

10:58

that are making sure that what I

11:00

do is aligned with my politics

11:03

and what I believe in and what I stand for.

11:06

I'm not going to make a list of what I do because

11:08

it not just defeat the fucking purpose, but there's

11:10

been many an opportunity that I have angled

11:13

to someone else, given to someone else or just

11:15

passed up because it didn't align

11:18

with what I feel like I'm supposed

11:20

to do. Even

11:23

if it was just, " Hey, I'm not the accurate representation

11:25

for what you're trying to do

11:27

here." And I get that I kind of

11:29

fit the mold because I'm very ambiguous

11:32

in a lot of ways. And I guess that

11:34

I've ambiguously been able to fit

11:36

a lot of different molds because I'm just enough

11:39

of something for a lot of different communities

11:41

and in a lot of those spaces I've had to be like, " Nope, I don't really

11:44

adequately represent this. Here's somebody

11:46

in this space that is actually out here

11:49

doing this work or representing this a 100%

11:51

and they would fit better." But it is little things

11:53

like that for me, just in making

11:55

sure that I'm always aligned in things I believe in. If I can

11:58

get on Twitter and pop shit about it, I should be able

12:00

to also carry that in my career.

12:02

And I've gotten a lot quieter

12:05

over the last few years with

12:08

my politics or what I

12:10

speak up about or things like that.

12:12

It has definitely just

12:15

been something that I'm like, " Let me actually

12:17

try to just maneuver in this way in my real life

12:20

because social media has become exhausting

12:22

quite frankly." And I feel like people

12:24

haven't noticed how quiet I've gotten because maybe

12:26

they're used to me. But I used to be on social

12:28

media 24/ 7, like " This

12:30

is what I'm doing, this is what's going on, this what's

12:33

happening." But I get on there,

12:35

it's majority work. And then I have a little bit of fun.

12:37

Some people even tell me they forget that I have a kid

12:39

because I'm not just posting my kid 24/ 7.

12:42

But definitely still

12:44

head on with the

12:46

things I want to be able to do while also making

12:49

sure that I can do my

12:51

job so that I can upkeep the things that I've

12:53

started.[profanity] like that, yeah .

12:55

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask on your Instagram

12:57

you had written that you were made of

12:59

honey, fire and cool waters. You

13:01

are a poet in your own way. Do you see yourself

13:04

as a poet? Do you read poetry? What's

13:06

your relationship to language

13:08

and how language liberates your

13:11

mind and makes you think of other ways to express

13:13

yourself?

13:14

I think that poetry is really important

13:17

to read as a songwriter because

13:20

we can get so literal and

13:23

I could look at the same poem multiple times

13:25

throughout the years and every

13:27

other year read it be like, " Okay,

13:29

that's what it meant." And it's important

13:31

for me to also learn simplicity.

13:35

And I think some of my favorite poets are

13:38

simpler. Nayyirah Waheed is

13:40

one of my favorites. She might be my

13:42

favorite, you're up there in my favorites. But

13:45

even just being

13:47

able to someone

13:49

say two sentences and it just

13:51

haunts me, just

13:53

gave me this relationship with songwriting

13:56

to where if I was being too wordy I would be able

13:58

to just be like, " How can I simplify

14:00

this to where all I have to say

14:02

is just enough?" I've definitely

14:04

written poetry in my life, but it always ends

14:06

up turning into a song and

14:09

the honey fire and cool

14:11

waters a nod to my religion

14:13

and my religion is very poetic. My spiritual

14:15

practice is very poetic. The entire religion

14:18

and practice is based on songs

14:20

and prayers and very,

14:22

very long prayers. And the prayers are very

14:24

poetic. And so being

14:26

a part of this specific practice

14:29

that allows me to see everything in that

14:31

way, I think now I hear poetry completely

14:33

different and I see poetry across

14:35

the world completely different.

14:36

Yeah, it's a tradition, it's a way

14:38

of life, a way of perceiving or seeing

14:40

the world. I wanted to

14:42

definitely talk to you about your spiritual

14:45

practice because I feel like it's

14:47

so funny, the way we met was that

14:50

Vic had told me about you. I'd known

14:52

obviously about you and your music. Didn't

14:54

really know too much, but Vic

14:56

was like, " Oh yeah", we would talk about something

14:59

somehow and then Vic would be like, " You

15:01

would with my homegirl Kehlani. Y'all

15:03

would get along." And then that stuff

15:05

happened in Ghana and you checked in and then as

15:07

soon as I got back, ironically BB

15:10

invited us to the house and I got to spend

15:12

time with you. And it

15:14

was such a really deep

15:16

way to meet someone.

15:19

Yeah. In some kind of ceremony.

15:25

[Laughter].

15:24

I was like, this was supposed to be really lighthearted. This

15:26

kind of became a really intense ceremony.

15:30

It was very intense. But

15:32

it was cool because sometimes

15:34

people treat spiritual spaces like, "

15:38

Oh my God, it's so intense and

15:40

dramatic." And while there was a little bit intensity,

15:42

I feel like you were talking about the things that you

15:44

believed and that you felt in the room energetically

15:48

very casually. Yeah. "

15:50

I can see some

15:53

non believers up in here, what's going on? Who's walking

15:56

around with all these old ladies?" And I really

15:59

was touched by it because my grandmother's

16:02

was a Santeria and the

16:04

power of her tongue and being able to see

16:07

so much could whip you into

16:09

some truth and

16:11

sometimes it would hurt a lot, but it was also just

16:14

the ability to just state what it was as a matter

16:16

of fact. And so I wanted to ask, what was

16:18

a big part of your development as

16:20

a woman who now has this really

16:23

kind of frank way of talking about your

16:25

spirituality? Were you always like

16:27

that? And what sparked that? When did that come about?

16:30

Well, definitely having

16:32

the right elders and entering a committed

16:34

spiritual practice and having all that

16:37

mysticism broken

16:39

down. I think the problem is that people have

16:42

created this super power esque

16:44

thing around the mediumship and

16:47

ancestor veneration and

16:49

even Orisha stuff. People have created

16:52

this just weird,

16:54

this gives you superpowers and you're going to be so

16:56

above everything and everything is just going to be-

16:58

Yeah like elitism.

17:00

Exactly. When these practices

17:02

were given to enslaved

17:05

Africans, well carried, at

17:07

least my practice, this was literally

17:09

given to basically across the world, poor people

17:12

who are trying to survive and

17:14

contain their magic to be tangible

17:16

in real life. These are practices that are implemented

17:19

in everyday life that are being worked

17:21

to actually free people,

17:23

feed people, get people

17:25

pregnant who couldn't have kids, to

17:27

bring crops back, to keep people

17:29

safe, to revolutionize

17:32

entire countries. So I think when

17:34

you go into a practice like that, it automatically

17:36

makes everything so grounded and in

17:38

the earth because you're like, " This is

17:41

no different than doing

17:43

something in real life with my hands."

17:45

Versus I think people over complicate the

17:47

whole, they view it as it's this floating cloud

17:49

above them that give them magical powers.

17:51

And even witnessing a ceremony

17:54

of our kind from

17:56

the outside, if you really don't know what's going on, it can look

17:58

like it's some magical power shit going on. But you're

18:00

like, " All we're doing it here is

18:02

getting talked to and being held accountable hella

18:05

so that we can go be good fucking human beings."

18:07

That's literally what's happening. And it

18:09

is hilarious when you witness

18:11

Orisha talk from the outside and people

18:14

weaponizing the Orisha and " I'm going to use

18:16

them to do this." Or " You don't want to play with her

18:18

because she's going to do this." I'm like, " No. All

18:20

that Orishas going to do is tell you to

18:22

get your life together, how to get your life together,

18:24

how to make yourself better, how to maneuver so you

18:26

can be a part of other people's healing. How to be a good community

18:29

member. That's it." So

18:31

it doesn't allow me to speak on it in a way of

18:33

just, " Oh, I got this and you don't and I can do

18:35

this." I will get my butt whooped for speaking that

18:37

you want me to get in trouble with Oshun because I'm

18:40

out here acting like I'm holier than thou when she's

18:42

whooped my butt so many fucking times

18:45

for even beginning to think that way.

18:48

Also, I think people are

18:50

in this really funny maximalism

18:54

type of thing with spirituality. I just talked about this

18:56

on TikTok because I was in a botanica the other day,

18:58

or maybe it wasn't a botanica, I was a little spiritual store

19:01

or something. I went for candles and

19:03

she was in front of me buying everything and

19:05

I kept seeing her reference her TikTok. She

19:07

was opening her TikTok and then she was buying everything. And

19:09

I just was like, I want to let her figure that

19:12

out. But I also want to let people know

19:14

that it doesn't take every

19:16

single crystal, every single herb. I don't

19:18

use crystals at all, but I have to mention it. Every

19:21

fabric, every candle,

19:23

every tool that you see at the store

19:25

and then just like if you don't

19:27

have the connection,

19:30

you're sitting here with a bunch of clutter and what

19:32

comes in fills clutter is spirits that

19:34

don't need to be there. So I think

19:37

there just needs to be a conversation about this where

19:39

it's like all that this

19:41

whole connection is for that

19:43

we develop and build is

19:45

to maneuver through our life to

19:48

the best of our ability. And

19:50

we keep clouding it with these trinkety

19:53

witchy ideas and

19:55

online spiritual, even

19:57

fucking everybody doing tarot readings on

20:00

TikTok. Who are you reading? Who are you talking to? What

20:02

spirits are you talking to and who

20:05

is this message... We all

20:08

need a reset and a step back and

20:10

then everybody will start to be able to apply

20:12

it and talk about it matter of factly

20:14

because they'll know and

20:16

be connected to exactly what they need

20:19

and they won't be grasping at everything. If

20:21

I can fit everybody's grandmas in here, cool, I can fit

20:23

everybody's grandmas. That doesn't mean I need to sit down,

20:26

do a reading with every single person to talk

20:28

about their grandma and what their grandma might need

20:30

and want. And you got to

20:32

do this and got to do this. That's for them to figure out.

20:35

So...

20:35

Yeah. That's interesting because I think about the

20:38

video that kind of went viral of that

20:40

random, what was it like right

20:42

wing person that saw you at the drive

20:45

through?

20:46

Oh my god. Yes.

20:46

And apparently you

20:49

were on the phone with your therapist.

20:52

I was in therapy.

20:53

Yeah, it was, man, that was so lovely.

20:57

But it's so-

20:58

And my

21:00

therapist was on the phone like " Tell him to

21:03

shut the fuck up, tell him shut

21:05

the fuck up."

21:06

Of all people, right? Your therapist is the one like " Turn

21:08

up, turn up." But-

21:09

She is gangster okay?

21:11

I Wanted to ask you about therapy because

21:13

I think about you talking about transitioning

21:16

from the conversation around spirituality or spiritual

21:19

practice and then into therapy

21:21

and what that looks like for you to

21:23

have chosen therapy. I wonder what was your journey

21:26

to get to the point where you even

21:28

said, " okay, I need a therapist." And then

21:31

what role does therapy play in

21:33

relationship to the fact that you also,

21:35

you have a spiritual practice to help

21:37

you. So yeah, what is the line between

21:39

the two? But what even triggered

21:42

or started your relationship with therapy?

21:44

I was in therapy growing up, but

21:47

because when they put you on medication you have

21:49

to have a therapist as well as a psychiatrist.

21:51

So my relationship with it was always so

21:53

like anti

21:55

and I hate y'all and I got to come sit

21:57

in this office after school and talk to people.

22:00

And I was so like... You're a kid,

22:02

you don't really see the worth of

22:05

any of that. And then

22:07

I don't even remember most of it, but as

22:09

soon as I was able to afford

22:13

a therapist, and that's why I also get touchy

22:15

with the subject of being like " everybody has

22:17

to have a therapist." Because that's a privilege

22:19

that I can even say that.

22:20

Of course it should be covered and people should

22:22

have access to it, but it is what it is.

22:25

Yeah. It definitely shouldn't be. But it's why

22:27

I try to be really careful with that language. But

22:30

I knew that I needed a therapist

22:32

when I caught myself

22:34

being in a spiritual psychosis

22:37

and spiritual psychosis for anybody

22:39

listening that does not know what that is when you make

22:42

everything spiritual, and

22:44

this is before I got in my spiritual practice, this

22:47

is like, " Oh yeah, I must be experiencing

22:49

this. This must be going, this must be going." I'm like whole

22:51

time, I just don't have the actual

22:54

legitimate tools

22:56

to be here on this plane dealing

22:58

with my own human shit. I can't blame

23:00

this on spirits, I cannot blame this on ancestors.

23:02

I cannot blame this on energy

23:05

or anybody else's energy. These are

23:07

actual things that I'm experiencing

23:09

that have to do with freaking

23:11

clinical, scientific terms like trauma

23:15

and repression and dissociation

23:18

and things like that that I'm like, " Okay, if

23:21

I'm sick, I go to a doctor.

23:23

If my mind is going through it, I should

23:25

probably go see someone who specializes

23:28

in the mind. I'm going to therapy." And

23:31

I remember that my biggest fear with therapy

23:33

was that I was going to spend weeks

23:36

and weeks and weeks explaining my life

23:38

story to someone. But how I knew

23:40

that my therapist was for me was in the first

23:42

session, she literally said, " Look

23:45

girl, you don't got to tell me nothing

23:47

about how you grew up. You don't got to explain your

23:49

life story to me. What you're going to do every week

23:51

is you're going to walk me through your week and what you

23:53

dealt with in your week and what you're experiencing day to

23:55

day and if there's anything that you feel like you

23:57

could have handled differently or that you

23:59

want to have some type of tools to handle it differently

24:01

when it comes up the next week." And

24:04

that's how I knew she was the one. So

24:06

I knew she was the one because I

24:09

felt like no matter what you do, and

24:12

especially in the space of spirituality, when there's always

24:14

room to grow and there's no ceiling that you can hit,

24:16

you have to have a grip on your

24:19

actual real life or else you

24:21

can just fly off the handles because there's no ceiling

24:23

you can hit. You can just go all

24:25

over the place. And we

24:28

have a huge saying in my religion that

24:30

spirituality and spiritual practice

24:32

does not take the place of

24:34

mental health. It does not. Certain

24:36

things can be spiritual yes, but you also

24:38

need a therapist. You can sit in

24:40

a reading in front of a priest in

24:42

Lucumí and the first thing they will

24:45

say is, " And you need a therapist."

24:49

They do not sit there and evade all

24:51

of that. That is a super spiritual misconception

24:53

if you go to a priest and they're like, we don't believe in therapy.

24:55

Red fucking flag run. So

25:00

I think that it's important for me especially

25:03

to have the tools to not fly

25:05

off the handles because you're given so much responsibility

25:08

when it comes to spirituality, especially if you're going to

25:10

be in some form of priesthood

25:12

or initiate into something that eventually

25:15

gives you a place of eldership or

25:17

teaching anyone else. You have

25:19

to do everything it takes to be grounded

25:21

and good in yourself so that you're not out

25:23

here bullshitting on anyone else because

25:25

now you have a big responsibility. So I

25:28

got to keep my together so that I can even

25:30

think about being responsible for anyone else.

25:32

Yeah. Can you tell

25:34

us a little bit about Blue Water Road? Yes.

25:38

My album.

25:39

This came out this year. It's been so beautiful

25:41

to see your journey.

25:43

Thank you.

25:44

And I would love to know

25:46

a little bit about why you titled that,

25:48

but then you are a blue water road

25:50

a little bit.

25:51

That's why, I

25:53

was trying to nod to

25:56

this place that

25:58

I had gotten to mentally while

26:01

also being very literal with my spiritual

26:03

practice because of Blue Water Road is a

26:05

river and

26:07

all the

26:09

album started on the street Blue

26:12

Water Road in Malibu. And

26:14

I started that album there,

26:16

left to go do ceremony and came

26:18

back a different person starting my year

26:21

long ceremony process. So

26:23

when I came back to it, I was like, " Holy

26:25

shit. That was the last place that I was my

26:27

old self, but the title of it feels

26:29

like it's my new self." So

26:32

I kind of wanted to honor that with the title.

26:34

And it was funny because the reception was exactly

26:37

what I thought it would be. I knew that the numbers would be

26:39

lower. I knew that the reception

26:42

would be, " We wanted toxic

26:45

you and we wanted heartbroken

26:47

you and we wanted you

26:49

that was talking about all

26:51

these." I hate

26:53

the term low vibrational but god damn

26:55

low vibrational. And

26:58

I knew that I was taking a risk if

27:01

I was playing the numbers game because

27:04

my last project did exceptionally well was

27:07

a number two album. People were

27:09

like, " Look, you're things are getting

27:11

to this size that it makes sense

27:13

what you're supposed to be at da da da." And then here I

27:15

am like, well, I'm going to make this really sweet, really

27:18

light, airy, fun

27:21

album. And luckily the people

27:24

that were in the studio with me every day, seeing

27:26

the emotions that these songs came from and talking

27:28

about these lyrics as I'm writing them,

27:30

that's all that I needed to reassure me that

27:32

I was doing the right thing because

27:35

that room was magical. Everything in

27:37

that room where we made it, even

27:39

how just in front of the ocean with the windows

27:41

open and all the light, we weren't in this

27:44

dark studio room at nighttime with no

27:46

windows and alcohol and shit like

27:48

it was on my last album. I was drunk as hell recording

27:50

my last album. I was completely sober

27:52

at a 100% of the time of recording

27:54

this album.

27:55

Wow.

27:55

Which is also another difference. And

27:58

I was so happy with it when it was done that it didn't even

28:00

matter for the first time. It did not matter

28:03

what this album did to me. I didn't give a fuck

28:05

about the reviews, I didn't give a fuck about the numbers. I didn't

28:07

give a fuck about the acknowledgement. Granted, it got

28:09

pretty cool acknowledgements and really great

28:11

reviews, but this was the first time that I

28:13

was like, " Don't even tell me, I don't

28:15

care because wait till I tour it.

28:18

Wait till I tour it. And you see

28:20

the effects of what it's like to sing altar

28:23

in a room full of people who

28:25

are thinking of all the people that they lost

28:27

and they're fine the entire concert until they start

28:29

bawling, crying and putting their hands in the sky." It's

28:31

like church, I didn't

28:33

even think my concert could do that. And we get to alter

28:35

and people are like clutching items

28:38

they've inherited from their family members.

28:40

And it has become not a normal experience

28:42

because of the way I've engulfed

28:46

this album spiritually to

28:48

where that's all that matters. It's like the

28:50

supporters, the fans in the room are feeling like this

28:53

is different for us.

28:56

There's a poem, Mary Oliver,

28:58

this poet wrote, and it's called The Uses of

29:00

Sorrow. It goes "

29:03

In my sleep, I dreamed

29:05

this poem" and the lines are, "

29:08

Someone I loved once gave

29:10

me a box full of darkness. It

29:12

took me years to understand that this

29:14

too was a gift." And

29:17

I wanted to ask

29:20

you in response

29:22

to that poem, what resonates for you?

29:24

Knowing that sorrow has been a big part

29:26

of your process and how

29:28

people see you in the world. And maybe that's the entry

29:31

point to your music and to your creativity,

29:33

but it's also been, it seems

29:36

to be a real gift. And so I wanted to ask

29:38

you, what was a moment

29:40

or a person or an experience

29:43

that you had to go through that really,

29:45

really ended up in the time

29:47

it seemed like, " Damn I got to go through this."

29:50

But it was in retrospect

29:52

and in reflection, now that you've had time to look

29:54

back, it was truly a gift and

29:56

helped you really center on

29:59

who you are and what you need to be doing in the world.

30:02

I crashed and burned in front of the entire

30:04

planet. I crashed out,

30:07

it was over. I attempted

30:09

to take my own life and

30:12

it played out very publicly, every step of it.

30:15

And it took me years

30:17

of being like, " Why me? Why me? Why

30:19

me? Why did this happen? Why was I weak? Why

30:21

did this go? Why would they do this to me? Why

30:24

did the world view it like this? Why wasn't

30:26

I supported?" And then

30:29

as an adult, adult, because that shit happened when

30:31

I was 20, I'm

30:33

27, I think I started really looking at

30:35

it differently around 25. I

30:37

was able to be like, " Man, would

30:40

I really know who I am

30:42

enough to where nothing could ever take

30:44

me out this planet ever again

30:46

if I didn't go through that?" Because I

30:48

was fragile. If it

30:50

wasn't that it was going to be something else, maybe it

30:52

would've been drugs or maybe it would've been a

30:54

deep enough heartbreak or maybe it would've been

30:57

my career shifting and me not being able to

30:59

understand it. But that happened

31:02

at a pivotal time where I

31:04

immediately through that healing

31:06

process, developed a sense of self that's

31:08

super irreplaceable. Healing

31:11

through that really had me looking at myself

31:13

like, " I know what

31:16

I'm capable of, I know who

31:19

I am, and most importantly I know what could

31:21

never hurt me again." And

31:24

it even kind of shifted my relationship

31:26

with social media and the outside world. I was

31:28

like, " Y'all have, for lack

31:30

of better words, killed me. Y'all

31:32

could never kill me again. Y'all

31:34

could never hurt me that deeply again." I

31:36

can remove myself and my life outside of

31:38

here is fantastic. And I think people have confused me

31:40

or removing myself on social media with me having a mental

31:43

breakdown. And I'm like, " No, this is my superpower.

31:45

This is what I know how to do. I know how to

31:47

get off of here and live in the real

31:49

world when this shit gets tough

31:51

because I'm never going to let none of that shit happen again."

31:55

And I think about that situation often

31:57

on some, not it could have been

31:59

worse because everything could be worse.

32:02

But I've seen

32:04

the other side of all

32:06

of this. It also shifted

32:08

my perspective of my career.

32:10

It just shifted everything I was... When

32:12

your heart stops and it comes back, whatever

32:15

you experience changes

32:17

you forever. And I came back like, "

32:20

Oh, none of this shit matters."

32:24

I was on some, I got to prove myself,

32:26

I got to get this money. Who even wants to be the

32:28

richest person in the world? No, this shit isn't

32:30

real. This shit isn't real. This

32:33

shit isn't real. I had a clear understanding

32:35

and I think I've been able to move very clearly

32:37

throughout my life and career because I fully

32:40

understand what is real and what's not.

32:42

And it couldn't have happened without that situation.

32:45

Yeah. It seems like God, universe,

32:47

whatever you want to call it, spirit will

32:49

trudge you through things just so that

32:52

you can be a testimony. I feel like you're definitely

32:55

a testimony to a lot. And

32:58

there's the other side of-

32:59

Thank you.

32:59

... what you experienced and I think

33:01

you went through it, you survived

33:03

that and you lived through that so that you could be on the other

33:05

side to tell another story. And

33:08

so I think that's really beautiful to see your growth

33:10

and development. And

33:14

this is where I guess we'll end on this note,

33:16

but love.

33:18

Oh man, love.

33:22

As someone that is deeply

33:25

inspired by love

33:27

and the many phases of love and

33:29

what it does to one's heart, one's

33:32

dream, one's inspiration. I just wanted

33:34

to ask you, what is one of the most

33:36

valuable lessons you've learned about

33:39

yourself as a lover,

33:41

as a person who loves deeply because

33:43

you've had very public relationships

33:45

and I

33:48

know that that must not be easy, but

33:50

you love unapologetically and you love loudly.

33:52

And I think that's what love is. Love

33:56

will have you with red nose and everything

33:58

being a clown, walking around.

33:59

Clown nose on. Clown

34:02

costume, clown shoes.

34:04

I've been a clown for love too many times,

34:06

but I'm not embarrassed or ashamed.

34:08

Oh man, love.

34:09

What is the most valuable lesson you've learned?

34:11

I think that that's the lesson

34:13

though. That is the lesson. I think

34:16

there's too much pride in love.

34:18

There's too much pride with like

34:21

you're thinking too far ahead of what this could end

34:24

up as and what it'll have you look... I don't care

34:26

what I look like. I don't care how

34:28

I look to anyone for how

34:30

in love I am. It is a blessing

34:34

to be in love. Some people go their whole

34:36

lives, whether it's because

34:39

of a circumstance or being

34:41

scared or being too guarded or something.

34:43

Some people go their whole lives

34:45

without experiencing love. Who

34:48

am I? And also

34:50

on some ego shit. Who do I think I

34:52

am to deny God in

34:54

that way? God is love, love

34:56

is God. Who am I to

34:58

deny that? As many times

35:00

as it presents itself in my life and every single

35:02

time it cracks me open further. I

35:05

don't ever regret any love I've ever

35:07

had or shared or been in, no matter how treacherous

35:10

it's been because it has opened something in me

35:12

that I was unable to unopen myself.

35:15

And as someone who's literally getting

35:17

out and maneuvering right now through

35:20

post what I consider

35:22

a very deep love, and I'm still going to have

35:24

those emotions for a ass long time, I'm

35:27

still learning hella shit that I'm like, " Damn nothing

35:29

would've taught me that except this, except

35:32

this girl and this situation and this year

35:34

at this age of my life." So

35:37

that paired with I'm just not scared

35:39

of shit and I'm not scared to start over and

35:41

I'm not scared of looking crazy for starting over.

35:43

I don't give a fuck if I fall in love 800 times

35:45

on this planet earth. That was my journey

35:49

and that was what God sent me here to do.

35:51

And hopefully somebody looks at me and goes, " I'm

35:54

not scared to try again again. Even if

35:56

it's only once." You don't have to do it 800 times

35:58

like me, but maybe my 800 times will spark

36:00

your, " I'm just going to try this one more time." And then

36:02

you meet the love of your life. And then God bless,

36:05

call me to sing at the wedding.

36:07

Facts. Oh

36:10

I-

36:10

So that's just what

36:12

this is whoopie shit is about. What else are we here for?

36:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing

36:16

like love. Well, Sade had

36:18

it best. " Love is stronger than pride." My

36:21

last question for you, and we'll close out

36:23

is a question that we ask all of our guests.

36:26

As we end, I want to ask you

36:28

what sounds come up

36:30

for you that bring you a sense of

36:33

calm, wholeness, peace

36:35

of mind, maybe even just what sounds

36:37

that you return to that really resonate

36:39

with you?

36:40

Well I have

36:42

a few. A bell. I

36:45

love a bell. River.

36:48

River water, running water in general,

36:50

or rain. I really like

36:52

Sitar. I

36:55

like Sitar a lot. I like whatever's

36:58

in Hindustani music.

37:01

Also, conga drums will

37:03

always make me feel like I'm a little more here

37:05

than normal. And then violin.

37:08

Violin makes me ache from

37:10

the core. You could play a violin and everything

37:12

just starts aching. And I'm like, " Ugh." So I don't know

37:15

if that's necessary I would turn it for good reason,

37:17

but if I put that on my mind is instantly

37:21

going in circles and my body's in it too.

37:23

But those are my sounds.

37:26

Well, thank you so much for your time.

37:29

I am so, so-

37:29

Thank you.

37:30

... inspired and grateful that you made time. It

37:32

was so lovely to speak with you. Anything

37:34

else you want to share?

37:36

All I want to say is if you're listening to

37:38

this podcast, you're very smart

37:40

because this is a very, very special, important

37:42

woman that you can all learn and take away

37:44

a lot from. And very

37:46

much hope that you continue to support everything that

37:48

she does. And thank you for having me.

37:51

Okay. Bye- bye. Love you.