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Hey everybody, I'm back and I am excited.

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I'm getting to talk to Kelly Hanks this week and I am just so excited because

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she's got so many awesome lessons on KnowledgeQuest.

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So yes, we're gonna talk about one here, but you absolutely should check out her

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other lessons too, because they are great.

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But this one really captured my mind.

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I'm really curious to kinda hear about it.

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So Kelly, if you wouldn't mind, take a second, tell us who you are, where you

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are, what do you do? Well, thanks for having me.

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I currently work as the lower school librarian at a private school in the metro

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Detroit area, so Michigan. And I work with preschool through third graders.

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So the littles. Yeah.

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Yes. Yes. Now, how did you end up with The Very Littles?

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Were you planning to be a school librarian from the jump or?

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So it's funny that you should ask that because I've been thinking about it.

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Anyway, I always love libraries.

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My mom will tell you that like if I was a grumpy teenager, she'd send me to the

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library and I'd come back, you know, a happy person.

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But I never really thought of doing it as a job.

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I always thought I would be an elementary school teacher, which I am, but you know,

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and then, right? But I was in my undergrad for elementary education and one of my classes was

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educational technology related. I can't remember the name of the class, but you get the idea.

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And they had a guest lecturer who was a school librarian.

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And yeah, and she's talking to the class about what she does and all the things

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that she gets to do in her day.

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And of course she's tying that to technology.

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And I'm sitting there going, this is my job.

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this is what I wanna do. And so I finished my education degree and I started teaching.

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I taught both first and fourth grade.

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And then I was getting my master's and at the time my husband and I were living out

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of state away from Michigan and we wanted to move home.

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And so I started to apply for both elementary teaching positions and school

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library positions. figuring whoever wants to give me a job, I'll take it, right?

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And I ended up in the school library and I have not looked back.

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So I've been there now for 14 years.

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So yeah. That's so great that they had a school library.

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I was figuring out, I spent 17 years in college and I never heard school

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librarians until I was in the school library program.

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So. know, it's crazy now that I think about how rare that probably was and how, you

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know, I guess lucky that I happened to be sitting in the class that day.

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So. So this lesson is about hexagonal thinking.

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Listen to the name. Right? Yeah.

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And really what's great about it is you can use it at any level, even at like with

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adults. But it actually started with a teacher sending me a podcast over the summer.

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And I think it's important for me to mention that I have a kind of unique

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schedule for an elementary librarian.

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A lot of elementary schools are fixed.

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I am on a hybrid schedule.

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So projects like this are a little bit, I guess, easier for me to do collaboratively

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because of the way our schedule is set up.

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That doesn't mean like if you have a fixed schedule, you can't do it.

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You absolutely can. But if you are somebody who's an elementary librarian and you're listening,

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you might be going, how is she doing this?

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It's because of the way our schedule is set up, right?

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Yeah. So. This is one of the third grade teachers that I work with all the time.

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And so she sent me a text message and she's like, you have to listen to this

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podcast. And of course, if someone sends you that, like, what do you do?

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You listen to it. Yeah. And so, and she also sent me a blog post with it.

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And the podcast that she sent ended up being the cult of pedagogy, hexagonal

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thinking, a colorful tool for discussion.

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And this is Jennifer Gonzalez's podcast in

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She talks about a lot of different stuff, but in this one, she was interviewing a

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high school teacher who used hexagonal thinking in her classroom.

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And so I listened to it and how it was such a good tool for discussion and how it

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allowed kids to work together.

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And, you know, it was really student driven and I'm going, this is amazing, but

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how could we use it with third grade?

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Cause this was a high school teacher, right?

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And so that's when I then checked the blog post.

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And the blog was from the Engage Your Minds blog by Terry, and I'm gonna mess up

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her last name, I feel so bad. Icults, I believe it's pronounced.

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And she had talked about how she planned to use it in her classroom with elementary

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kids as a get to know you activity.

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And at this point, the teacher and I are like, oh, we get it now, we could make

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this happen. So essentially, hexagonal thinking is like,

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basically you take a hexagon and you write a topic and then you can connect that to

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other hexagons in the classroom.

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So it might be that you ask a question and everyone answers it, but they might all

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answer differently and then you connect, you try to connect the hexagons in ways

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that make sense. We used it slightly differently because obviously with littles, you can't have a

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whole bunch of hexagons. You got to kind of limit that a little bit, but.

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of how the lesson came to be.

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Yeah. I love that your teachers are sending you stuff.

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Like usually it's the librarian sending stuff to the teachers.

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Yeah, and that happens more often, but on occasion, like in this particular teacher,

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like I said, we work together all the time. So she gets an idea.

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She's like, I have an idea. And I'm like, let's do it.

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Yes. So all right we're gonna do some hexagonal thinking.

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I am a student, I'm a third grade student, I'm assuming and I walk in what am I gonna

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see? And first of all am I coming into the library or are you coming to the

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classroom? So it depends on what part of the lesson we're in.

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This is actually a four -part project.

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It's not just one lesson.

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At least that's how we designed this one.

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You could use it smaller, we have, but this particular project took four 30

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-minute lessons. Now, depending on the class, I imagine you might need five, depending on the kids.

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and what's happening in the world, but It was designed as for So the first lesson

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they usually come to the library and This is a beginning of the year back to school

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get to know you kind of project.

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So the goal is To really learn about the kids and have them share some things with

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you while we teach

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some of the information literacy things in a, I guess, sort of sneaky way, but yeah,

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sneak them in there. So the first lesson has them writing six sentences about themselves.

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And these six sentences can be anything they wanna share.

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We typically say that it has to be school appropriate, obviously.

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And we also avoid like broad themes, like I guess,

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I guess we tell the kids to think broadly.

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So instead of just saying, I like soccer, I like football, I like baseball, I like

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tennis, I like enlisting six different sports that they like to play, we tell

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them like, okay, maybe you say, I like soccer, and then what else do you like?

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Do you like to read? Do you like to draw?

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Do you like the color purple? Do you like, you know, summer the best or, you know, listening to music or whatever

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that might be. So, because it works better if they have multiple categories.

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Yeah. give them sort of like a list or do you give them some examples or do you sort of

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just see what they're doing and kind of nudge them if they need the nudge?

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I typically, the teacher and I usually share ours.

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Now there is some thing to remember about that is sometimes when you give an example

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to an elementary school kid, then they copy.

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Usually by third grade, you can say, this should be your answers, not mine.

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Usually by then they have a good idea of that, but something to remember, I guess.

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And we usually, suggest maybe some like have the kids share some categories that they could

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write their sentences about.

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So sort of brainstorm a little bit.

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Like what would your friends want to know kind of question.

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And they write the six sentences and we use a graphic organizer so that they can

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track like this is my sentence number one, this is two.

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You could just use paper too but we found that the graphic organizer helps them.

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Yeah, I can see that, especially with the littles maybe.

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yeah, especially at the start of the year.

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And then what we have them do once they write their six sentences is circle the

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keyword in that sentence.

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So I typically start with, I used to dance ballet.

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That's my first sentence.

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And so the keyword for me is ballet.

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And then once they circled their keywords, they have to then think of a word or an

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image. that they would want to find to go with that sentence.

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And we typically talk about how if you say, I like sports and you circle sports,

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that might work. You could search for sports, but we also say, you're gonna get a lot of pictures

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for sports. And the kids usually understand that, right?

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Like they're old enough to go, yeah, there's a lot of sports out there.

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And so... we say, well, maybe if you say you like sports, but your favorite one is soccer,

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you're actually searching for soccer.

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And so they list that key word in a box next to the sentence.

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man, I almost want to and I know we're talking about third graders and the first

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step of this project But I almost want to do this with the seventh graders who are

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having trouble picking out like what is the key word in this phrase?

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Or what is our you know search term? What's our key phrases there?

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that's kind of the goal is to talk about search terms, right?

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Because as they go through in third grade, we start to infuse some of that, you know,

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searching skills. Obviously, it's heavily monitored, but we start to introduce that in third grade.

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And so this kind of allows it to be something that's very, I guess, a good way

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to introduce it. Mm -hmm.

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too difficult or where you have to actually, you know, find information to go

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with it. I mean, we are finding information, but a soccer ball is not that difficult to find.

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authentic too. I mean it is very much about them and so yes we're learning the skill of picking

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out a key word but it's also relevant to them personally so that's always a nice

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twist when you can get Right, so that's the first lesson and that's where we leave it.

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They've written their sentences, they found their keywords, they've created

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their search term. And then the second time I see them, this might be in the library but it also might

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be in the classroom. It kind of depends what's going on, if I'm being honest.

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It depends on what the class had, like if they were transitioning from something, it

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depends what's going on in the library.

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So that's... lesson can be in either the classroom or the library.

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But we are one -to -one iPads, so that's what we use in our school.

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And so the second lesson is about copyright free images.

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Yes, or rights cleared images, however you want to phrase it.

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And so on my library canvas page, I have an actual link.

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to copyright free or image rights cleared images all the time.

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But the kids don't always think to go there when they want to search for an

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image, they just Google it. And we talk a lot about how you can't do that, that it belongs to somebody and you

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can't just take what you want. So this is kind of the introduction into copyright in a way that these third

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graders can get. Yeah.

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that a photographer takes the pictures and that the photographer makes money from the

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picture and that if I take it it's kind of like the minute they figure it out they're

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like oh my god it's stealing. I'm like yep.

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So we introduced this and the idea here is then when they do any project in third

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grade that requires an image they know they can go to the library canvas page and

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they can choose one of these sites and they can find an image that will work

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that's copyright free. Nice.

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they use their search terms to find their images and then save it to their device,

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which is a step in itself for third grade.

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Right? Yeah. And so that's that second lesson.

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Literally, here's the websites. Here's why we have to use them.

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Here's, let's search for them and we have to spell, we have to spell them correctly

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to find the image we want.

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And then we're gonna save it. Yeah, and then from there after that the third lesson is then taking those images

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and inserting them into their hexagon.

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So we're going back to the hexagonal thinking piece.

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So we give them a Google slide where the hexagon has been inserted into the

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background. So they can't actually delete it.

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And then the hexagon we have has been divided into six sections.

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So there's six sentences, one picture in each part of their hexagon.

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So then they're taking the images that they collected and learning to insert them

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into a Google slide, which, yes.

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And they use Google Slides all the time in third grade.

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That's one of their go -to platforms.

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So it's kind of a good way of introducing.

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it with again not being something that you know has a lot of steps to it.

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They also have to learn how to resize the image, insert a text box, type in the text

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box, change the font, which are all things that you have to explicitly teach in third

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grade. Well sure, right.

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so funny, because I just, I was recently talking to somebody about how we think of

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kids as being these... Mm -hmm.

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digital natives, they are human beings.

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Yep, I teach them you got to touch that blue box in the corner and you got to drag

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it. Yep.

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And you know, we have to choose a font we can read.

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Yes. Yeah.

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So they have to, you know, resize their images and put them into each part of the

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hexagon. And that is all that lesson is.

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And then the, oh, I'm sorry, there is one final step on that.

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They share it to me and their teacher.

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So through Google's, yes, yes.

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Once they get the hang of it though, it's not too hard.

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It's just that initial, wait, how do I resize this?

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How do I do this? And it's also a game of listening.

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and being able to follow multi -step directions, which again in third grade is

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something we work on a lot.

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So we're hitting a lot of skills.

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So they share it back to us and then the teacher and I can also see who's done,

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who's not, so that we can catch up the ones that aren't and we can print it.

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Our school doesn't have kids print from their iPads.

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So... Okay.

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Nice. And then we talk a little bit about how you connect your hexagons.

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So we give a couple examples of some possibilities, but we also don't give too

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many because the beauty of hexagonal thinking is that they're having the

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conversation and they're figuring out, okay,

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you have a cheetah on yours and I have a tiger on mine.

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They're both animals, but so that connects.

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But if I talk to you and find out that the cheetah is, you know, you pick it and you

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really like it because it's fast, then maybe the fact that I like to run is

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actually a better connection. And so we're going to connect the cheetah and the runner instead of the cheetah and

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the tiger. This is the portion that I just am so fascinated by, the way, well, I'm gonna

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not talk through it, because I wanna hear how this goes, because this, in looking

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over the lesson, this was the part that I was. this is like the reason we did the lesson, right?

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So we have to make sure we're dedicating the time to this part.

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So it may seem like it wouldn't take very long to connect these things.

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And usually the first round it doesn't, it's when you ask the kids to like do it

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in another way that they're like, wait, but this was the way that made sense.

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And you're like, mm -hmm, now try it again.

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But basically they're making connections between their hexagons and all the sides

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have to make sense. So if, for example, like two of them connect and it's hard to do this over

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audio. I wish I could like show you a picture, right?

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But if two connect and then another one fits in in one spot, but not the other, it

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doesn't work. it all the sides actually have to make sense.

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So sometimes it does end up like a long skinny line of hexagons, right?

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But sometimes the kids can figure out how multiple sides can connect to two

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different people at the same time.

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And it's so interesting to hear like when they start to have trouble, like maybe

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they'll get three of them connected, but the fourth won't go in.

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And they're like, okay, but wait,

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So they have to then go back to the drawing board and say, okay, well, maybe

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we need to switch two people around.

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Yeah, and we usually start with a group of four. I guess I didn't say that, but we usually start with a group of four.

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That seems to be a beautiful number.

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Not too many, but enough to force them to like, you know, have to make more

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challenging connections. Once their group of four has done it, we typically say, do it again.

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but in a new way. And then we start to merge groups so that they get bigger.

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So a group of six or a group of eight.

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Typically by the end, everyone's like, can we connect them all?

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I wouldn't recommend that because it typically ends up like a giant pig pile.

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But, you know, typically what the teacher and I have found is that if we put them

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like on their back table and we say during free time, if you want to try to connect

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some of them and talk to a friend about where it goes,

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maybe that might work.

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Yeah, my favorite connection ever.

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Do you want to hear my favorite one? So I think I put a picture of this one in the blog post.

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So there was one group that like couldn't figure out how to fit the like fourth

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person in. And one person had that their favorite food was like chicken and they liked

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cooking with their mom. And the other had YouTube.

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And they were like, okay, these two have to go together because there's no other

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way to connect these. And someone finally said, well, you can watch cooking videos on YouTube and learn

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how to cook, or you and your mom could start a cooking channel.

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And so all of a sudden we're like, all right, the teacher and our like, it's

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beautiful. It works for us.

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So that's kind of the fun part is watching them figure it out.

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And typically the last five minutes of that lesson is reserved for a little

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reflection. And we always ask the kids, okay, why do you think we did this?

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Because it is so many steps and it is a pretty big project and they're all like,

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you know, and you know, you get answers like, you know, you wanted to know who we

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were or we learned how to do this or, but you usually find one kid who's like, so we

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could all find things that we had in common.

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Yep. Yep. Wow.

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Yeah. And I love too when we can get them to be creative within constrained choice.

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So like they're locked into these choices.

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They've got their puzzle piece and now you've got to really spin those wheels and

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figure out how to do that. yeah.

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a favorite. I love to do that but I also love seeing the students do that because I feel like

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sometimes when the choice is unrestricted they can either just spin out because they

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don't know like there's too much to deal with but then when it's too constrained

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they get bored so this is like the best of both worlds I feel like.

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and the thing is, is this sets the stage for them to be able to use hexagonal

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thinking and other subject areas, because then you're not teaching necessarily the

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skill of using the hexagon.

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then you can just make connections in the content area.

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So you don't, not that you don't have to review it, of course, with third grade,

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with elementary, you always have to review it.

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But I feel like maybe middle school too.

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But you aren't necessarily teaching that this is what this is.

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They've seen it before. So now when I wanna do it with math or reading or grammar or something, I...

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It's not a new concept. Yeah.

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the you've laid the groundwork. They know the basics of how the lessons gonna go even though they need the

23:48

refresher You're not starting from scratch.

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You're not spending that for lessons again Right, right, absolutely.

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And you can use hexagonal thinking a lot faster by just having them write in the

24:00

hexagon. You don't have to insert the images and do all the typing every time.

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You can have them printed and have them write in it.

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So you can use it in multiple ways.

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So I'm curious, is there a way that you can modify this or differentiate for

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students that are maybe, if you've got a mixed ability level?

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So I think the beauty of this lesson is because it's about them, it's not too

24:32

hard. Now, I imagine as if you were to use this in the content area, you would have to do

24:39

some modifications. I think because they have choice in it that also lends itself to that

24:47

differentiation piece because, you know, I'm going to choose what I can do.

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Now, that's one of the things when we have them share it back to us.

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you can see who needs some extra follow -up.

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So that extra additional time, and that's where the teacher and I talk.

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Like, do you have time to help this, you know, one who didn't quite finish, or do

25:09

you want me to pull them, or, you know, so that collaborative piece is there.

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And all these lessons are co -taught, so the teacher and I are both seeing, okay, I

25:21

need to help this person more versus this person.

25:27

to get a sense of where these kids are at and a bunch of different skills.

25:33

Well, even just the writing of the sentences at the beginning of the year is

25:37

telling and it helps gauge, okay, where, who's where.

25:43

Yeah, yeah. Right?

25:49

Yeah. So what advice would you have for someone who is going to try this for the first

25:53

time? Is there anything they should kind of have? Well, I think you have to consider your level.

25:59

You know, that was us. You know, this was originally shared as a tool used in high school.

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And so we really had to step back and say, where are we, how are we going to make

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this work with this age group?

26:14

We have chunked the lessons the way we have in 30 minute chunks on purpose,

26:20

because then it's not, you're not overwhelming.

26:25

Some of it's because time, right?

26:27

Like we have 30 minute windows, but on top of that, we wouldn't necessarily want to

26:35

teach the searching and the saving and the inserting and the resizing and the text

26:41

box and the sharing all in one lesson.

26:43

It would just be, uh -huh, yeah, it would just, yeah, it wouldn't work.

26:49

So starting small and keeping it simple.

26:53

Mm -hmm. can be helpful.

26:56

I know that, you know, we use it for the images because we felt that was important

27:02

because the teachers use a lot of projects that have images and so they wanted to

27:06

make sure kids were set up for that. But you could have them draw even, you know, like if your schedule or you weren't

27:12

able to do this collaboratively but you still wanted to include hexagonal

27:16

thinking, you could have that element not be, you know, the tech piece.

27:23

and that would alleviate some of the challenge of managing it.

27:26

Yeah, well, and I think too, I love that you did break out the tech elements of it

27:32

sort of in its own separate component.

27:34

And I think that's an important thing to think about because like we already said,

27:37

not all the kids, in fact, probably a lot of the kids aren't going to be showing up

27:41

with the skills to just know how to do that.

27:44

So like factoring that in as you're planning is probably a good idea.

27:50

Yeah. We, I just assume they don't know how to do it.

27:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:56

So it sounds like the, I mean, your teacher collaborator clearly thinks this

28:01

is a very worthwhile lesson. How long have you been doing this, by the way?

28:04

I forgot to ask. So this is only the second year we had done it.

28:08

So we did it for the first time in fall of 2022.

28:13

Yes, that's where we are. Fall of 2022.

28:15

And then we did it for the second time this fall in 2023.

28:19

I don't, I anticipate we would do it again.

28:22

We felt like it teaches so many of those skills that we need to teach at the

28:27

beginning of the year in a positive way that we would.

28:33

I don't see us not doing it, but then again, we'll see.

28:37

Yeah, but the fact that you thought it was good enough to bring back a second time

28:40

and that your teacher collaborator wanted to do this a second time clearly says

28:44

there's value here. And.

28:46

she brought it to me, but really we did it with the entire third grade.

28:49

So it wasn't just one classroom.

28:51

It ended up being all, I teach four different third grade classes.

28:55

So all four classrooms did it.

28:57

So every third grader, you know, we could say had had this lesson.

29:02

Okay. Did the other teachers have anything to say about how it went with their kids?

29:06

Did they have like any feedback? Oh yeah, I mean everybody sort of was like, this is awesome.

29:11

And the conversations that they were having, the kids were having was so

29:18

interesting to listen to. And you could easily see who kind of took charge and who kind of was a good

29:25

listener, who was sort of your peacekeeper or your compromiser.

29:32

You can kind of see some of those personalities coming through.

29:36

as they're having their conversations too, which is important as a teacher to

29:40

recognize, you know, what's gonna work in your classroom, to play on those

29:45

strengths. Absolutely. Oh boy, there's so many great things that are coming out of this lesson.

29:49

I love it. Oh man.

29:51

All right, well, this is an awesome lesson.

29:54

I absolutely am planning to steal as much of this as I can and bring it to my middle

29:58

schoolers, but we are now going to take a 90 degree turn and we're going to head

30:01

into our book break. So yeah.

30:05

So you can share any book you like.

30:07

It can be personal, professional, it can be adults for kids, for whatever, any kind

30:11

of book you think people should know about. What do you got?

30:14

What do you want to share? so I'm gonna kinda cheat.

30:17

I have two, and really it's like two -ish.

30:22

So sorry. don't have to be sorry.

30:25

The last episode I recorded, my guest had, I think, 30 books that we went through, so

30:33

two -ish is fine. well we have two ish because the first is a professional book that I think all

30:41

librarians should read even though it's not written for librarians.

30:44

It's actually written for entrepreneurs but it's called Are You Backable?

30:52

and I want to not want to mess up here.

30:54

The Surprising Truth Behind What Make People Take a Chance on You and it's by

31:00

Sunil Gupta. And it is seven steps that work, that are easy.

31:08

Some of them are very simple. It's just how you even phrase things to make people hear what you have to say.

31:17

And it's so good for advocacy.

31:21

Like I read it and I go, oh my goodness, I could use this piece when I advocate or

31:26

this piece when I advocate. Like it's beautiful.

31:30

And some of it is just flipping how you would say something.

31:37

And so... we need all the advocacy we can get these days.

31:41

So this is great. This is a great tip. And there it basically has, you know, whole point was like, how does some

31:47

people, you know, gain the capital to start a business?

31:51

You know, they're convincing. And why?

31:54

And so it's the same kind of concept when you think about libraries, right?

31:57

Like, how do some people push their program forward with

32:02

how they present the library and others struggle in that area and it's all in how

32:07

you present it. But you know, as librarians, we're not often taught how to do that.

32:13

Most people aren't. And so unless you're naturally good at it, which some people are, you might not know.

32:21

And so this, he did a ton of research to figure out what makes people backable.

32:28

And I was like, oh my gosh, every librarian needs to be backable.

32:31

And then the other is a picture book author named Sandra Fay.

32:38

And she has written two picture books that are absolutely hysterical.

32:44

The first is the very true legend of the Mongolian death worms.

32:55

Okay. I need to get a copy of this clearly

32:59

hysterical. So it's these death worms that live in Mangolia.

33:04

And they, apparently it's a legend that they live, like it's like a true legend

33:09

there that they live under the ground, but they come out and they want to make

33:13

friends and no one wants to be their friend because they're death worms.

33:17

And it's like a total story about acceptance in a very funny package.

33:21

It's beautiful. And then she's written a new one that's called the three little

33:29

Tara grades, which is a science term that I was not familiar with.

33:34

But these, I guess they live everywhere and they're like indestructible.

33:37

They're like a real thing. Well, it's in the story of like the three little pigs.

33:44

Right? It's so good.

33:53

Thank you. Tara. I got it.

33:56

Yeah, no, it's the three little pigs.

33:58

So like when you're talking, you know, your fractured fairy tales, this one fits

34:02

right in, but it throws in this whole idea of science concepts mixed in.

34:08

And the mom like pushes them out of the water droplet and says, go out into the

34:13

world. And the one ends up in like outer space and so good.

34:19

Yeah. wow. All right. Well, I am definitely Now I have three more books to add to my TBR pile

34:26

two are picture books, they'd be quick reads.

34:29

So, yeah. I love it.

34:32

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing this lesson, for sharing these books.

34:36

I mean, you are such a generous, kind person with all of your ideas.

34:40

If people want to find you, where are they going to go looking for you online?

34:44

so I do write for Knowledge Quest, although I've been a little bit lax on my

34:48

job this year. We'll see if I can get back into the swing of things.

34:52

But there are old ones there if you want to read them.

34:56

I am on X, what used to be known as Twitter, and that one is Kelly Hinks One.

35:04

And then I'm on Blue Sky, but that one's just Kelly Hinks.

35:09

Excellent. Instagram, which I'm really bad at, but I'm there.

35:13

And that one's Kelly .hinks.

35:15

So I guess if you search my name in some form, you'll find me.

35:20

Yeah. It's poor branding if you ask me, but that's okay.

35:27

Yeah, right. Right.

35:30

All right, well, again, thank you so much.

35:33

I really enjoyed this conversation.

35:35

I love your lessons. Thank you so much for being here.

35:38

You're so welcome. Thanks for having me.