0:05

Welcome to Slant Podcast. This

0:07

is your host, Dana Tassoon

0:09

Burgess. This podcast is an ongoing

0:12

conversation around the Asian American

0:14

experience through the lens of artists

0:16

and luminaries. Thank you for tuning

0:19

in. Today's guest

0:21

is Eunice Lau, a New York

0:23

based director, writer, and producer.

0:26

Ms. Lau is a former journalist

0:28

and a descendant of immigrants displaced

0:30

by conflict. She is drawn

0:32

to stories about the journey of migrants

0:35

and the profundity of hyphenated identities.

0:39

Her feature documentary, Accept

0:41

the Call, set in Minnesota's

0:43

Somali community, explores the

0:45

impact of inherited

0:47

trauma. It aired on PBS

0:50

and Canal Plus after screening

0:52

at acclaimed film festivals such

0:54

as Human Rights Watch and Woodstock.

0:58

Her second feature documentary, A

1:00

Town Boys, explores the

1:02

struggles of growing up Asian American

1:05

in the South and is currently streaming

1:07

on Amazon Prime Video and

1:09

Tubi. Her work is supported

1:11

by eminent organizations, including

1:14

the Jerome Foundation, the Tribeca

1:17

Film Institute, and Women Make

1:19

Movies among others. Ms.

1:21

Lau earned a Master's of Fine Arts

1:23

in Film from New York University

1:26

and a Bachelor of Arts in Politics,

1:28

philosophy and Economics from

1:30

the University of York. Welcome,

1:33

Eunice. Thank you so much for joining us today.

1:36

Thank you, Dana.

1:38

I'd like to start at the beginning,

1:41

with our guests and I'd like to ask

1:43

how and where

1:45

did you grow up?

1:47

I grew up in Singapore. And

1:50

I came to the United States 15 years

1:52

ago. My grandparents

1:55

and great grandparents are from China. and

1:58

also came down to Southeast Asia

2:00

and, married to local women. So

2:02

I do have also origins

2:04

of, street sporn Chinese blood. But I

2:07

identify as Chinese.

2:08

And was there anyone who

2:11

was a documentarian or

2:14

a journalist within

2:16

the realm of storytelling within

2:18

your family?

2:20

No, but you know, my mom is a teacher,

2:23

but she also used to write Chinese,

2:25

children's stories. And

2:27

I grew up with a lot of books and

2:30

my grandmother's way of babysitting me

2:32

was to put me in front of TV. We watched

2:34

lots of movies together, we'll go

2:36

to the cinema and I'll sit on her lap and if

2:38

there's no one next to her she would just put

2:41

me on the seat next to her. That's how I basically

2:43

grew up watching a lot of TV and movies.

2:49

You're moving from,

2:52

where you were born, where you grew up,

2:54

to America. What

2:56

was that experience like?...

2:59

I came here for film school and

3:01

I kind of eventually stayed because I found

3:03

my community here. And

3:05

in many ways, I felt like America

3:07

reminded me of Singapore, in

3:09

the sense that, we're both immigrant

3:11

societies. And, we

3:14

have a lot of different cultures

3:16

and races coming

3:18

together and also evolving

3:20

on their own. And I think what

3:23

really resonated with me was

3:25

how this definition

3:27

of. What it means to be American,

3:30

what it means to be Singaporean, national identity

3:32

is continuously evolving because

3:35

of the new immigrants who bring

3:37

their own experiences, their own

3:39

culture into it. And so

3:42

a lot of the stories that I do sort of touch

3:44

on that immigrant experience because I think

3:46

it's something that is deeply

3:48

part of my search, my own journey to understand

3:51

what it means to be who I am and

3:54

to also unpack some of the trauma

3:56

that came with that, that I inherited

3:58

unknowingly. And there's this

4:01

process of discovery and listening

4:03

to stories and sort of telling them.

4:05

I'm here in America as a filmmaker that,

4:07

I got in touch with my own emotions

4:10

and, find answers for myself.

4:13

Your work often focuses on hyphenated

4:15

identities. It's sort of this place

4:18

in between varying worlds,

4:20

in between socioeconomic realities

4:22

and generational beliefs, and it

4:24

seems like this hyphenated place for

4:27

you is where trauma resides.

4:30

Do you think that's a good assessment of how

4:33

you see the struggles of hyphenated

4:35

identities?

4:36

Yes, absolutely.

4:38

I think, when you have

4:41

this, The confluence of

4:43

two societies or multiple societies,

4:46

the influences in which, we inherited

4:49

and, sort of competing

4:51

for the influences that, inform

4:54

us in our present lives. And

4:57

it's from the collision

4:59

of two. Sometimes they

5:01

compliment each other and sometimes they don't. And

5:04

I think that exists a lot

5:07

of confusion and a lot of tension.

5:09

Within ourselves as well as with

5:11

our families, who also,

5:15

sometimes find it hard for

5:17

them to come to terms with the

5:19

fact that we will evolve differently

5:21

from them. I think

5:23

when I was growing up, I

5:26

was often told that I'm not Chinese enough.

5:28

I'm not this and that enough. And,

5:31

I think when our elders tell us

5:33

things like that, they want us to do better.

5:35

they're so afraid that they'll lose us, you

5:38

know, our culture touchstone. It was

5:40

their way of trying to draw us closer to

5:42

them, but at the same time, I think it's also

5:45

negative, because it's the sort of

5:47

way of not allowing us to grow and

5:49

also to understand

5:52

what are the things that influence us.

5:54

But also I think that is

5:56

the unspoken what brought them

5:58

there and what created us

6:01

to be in this space is

6:03

also part of that trauma. Because

6:05

I had a curious mind that I would

6:07

ask my grandmother to tell me stories about

6:10

the past. Even then, it's

6:12

not easy for them to unpack a lot of

6:14

the painful past of how they were adopted

6:17

or rejected. So a

6:19

lot of that is the silence.

6:22

And then it sort of translate into

6:24

the ways of interacting with

6:26

you. Not to say that we

6:29

need to hop on our past, but I think it's that understanding

6:31

of what you inherited and how

6:34

you can move forward with it.

6:36

Right.

6:37

also what actually

6:40

compelled them to leave the country's,

6:42

the trauma that they bring with them. And

6:45

when they do not confronted

6:48

or address it. it does. somehow,

6:50

translate down to the next generation and it

6:52

will just carry on until we sort of

6:55

deal with it. It's generally

6:57

what I experienced as what we

6:59

call, intergenerational trauma.

7:03

Yeah, it's this question of whether the

7:05

hyphen between two things connects

7:07

or actually disconnects. Right? Whether

7:09

it's a barrier or whether

7:11

it's a connector. It's very interesting.

7:14

I'm actually really interested in your

7:16

work. In a way we do explore,

7:19

similar, themes, you

7:21

a lot of your work also talks about,

7:23

this, hyphenated identity. Through

7:26

these years of, trying to portray

7:29

that and what you have uncovered.

7:30

Because I'm Korean,

7:33

half American background, but,

7:36

my Korean side is this old

7:38

plantation family. they all worked on a

7:40

plantation in Hawaii, picking

7:42

sugar cane and pineapple. There's

7:44

this sort of built in trauma of

7:47

that American experience, right?

7:49

that's built in. And then I grew

7:51

up in Santa Fe in New Mexico,

7:53

which was, a completely

7:56

different community

7:58

of cultures that would clash

8:01

at times. So I think that

8:03

all of those things made

8:06

me See the world from a very

8:08

voyeuristic perspective, where

8:11

I'm constantly sitting back and

8:13

listening to stories and seeing,

8:15

how people's lives unfold and trying

8:18

to figure out what the commonality is

8:20

between them all. Because I'm a big

8:22

believer that we really only

8:24

have a few stories in

8:27

terms of humanity's stories, right? We

8:29

have stories of love, of redemption,

8:31

of loss, and that these

8:33

just keep unfolding and

8:36

retelling themselves through different

8:38

individuals, through different,

8:40

cultural stories. That's what

8:42

I'm interested in, is like finding

8:44

these common storylines and

8:46

trying to figure out how to retell them through

8:49

different perspectives, different people's,

8:52

viewpoints.

8:53

Yeah. I think, the journey of making

8:56

a film or, a production

8:58

really is, never easy. And

9:00

sometimes you wonder like at some point,

9:02

what is the point, but when you see

9:05

the reaction of the audience

9:08

and you have people coming up to you and they are

9:10

with tears in their eyes saying. You

9:12

know, I'm not Asian, but this resonates

9:14

so much with me, and

9:16

it just that is the reason

9:19

why we tell stories, right? Then you go,

9:21

Oh, wow, it has moved people, not just

9:23

my people, quote unquote. And

9:25

that is because we are telling

9:28

stories that so universal that it has

9:30

that solve. Like you said, the

9:33

same love and redemption that we're all searching

9:35

for. It resonates.

9:38

So, and then you're so grateful to be

9:40

having this privilege of, being an

9:42

artist and doing what we love.

9:44

Definitely. I think we understand deeply

9:46

the transformative power of art.

9:48

And also, how important

9:51

allowing people to have a safe

9:53

place to call home, to

9:55

be accepted in, to have

9:58

a place in which they can dream freely

10:00

of their own futures, right. Is

10:03

really important.

10:05

Yeah. It's when I was filming

10:07

Accept the Call, I do remember

10:10

at one point when I was behind the camera

10:12

saying, I heard this story before

10:14

I seen this before. And it was, what

10:17

I meant was that it reminded

10:19

me of, A Town Boys cause I worked

10:21

on it before. And I

10:24

felt like it was the same

10:26

pain and anger

10:28

that I was like experiencing when

10:31

I was interviewing them and they were sharing their story

10:34

with me and I was like,

10:36

it's the same feeling of displacement,

10:39

the same confusion.

10:43

It's sort of detective work, isn't it?

10:45

In order to understand

10:47

how an individual can self actualize

10:50

to sort of move forward and

10:52

evolve from those very

10:54

personal histories.

10:56

And it takes a lot of work. It's easier to

10:59

ignore them and to just,

11:01

tell yourself that it don't matter,

11:04

but of course it does. It's easier

11:06

for us to just move forward and ignore,

11:09

what we do not know, I come

11:11

back to this, this example of,

11:13

Zachariah, Abdul Rahman, who

11:16

is one of the main characters in my film,

11:18

Accept the Call. He's a Somali.

11:21

American born in Minnesota. And

11:24

part of, the work that I did, in my interaction

11:26

over the three and a half years, we're filming

11:29

together. We started a book club

11:31

and I'll send him books when, while he was still in

11:33

prison. And one of the,

11:36

books that I sent him was The Refugee

11:38

by Viet. Um. And

11:40

he loved it. He was so amazed. And

11:43

he said, I never knew that, the Vietnamese

11:45

American experience is so similar to

11:47

the Somali American. In how

11:49

they, they fled the conflict, how they came

11:51

to the country, how much, Trauma

11:54

they brought with them. I was that there is

11:56

actually so much shared experiences

11:58

between, the different, ethnic

12:00

groups, and races. It's actually

12:03

the commonality of what we

12:05

went through, even though it's different conflict,

12:07

but it is what enables us to

12:10

understand each other in the way that, I

12:12

felt very close to a lot

12:14

of things that Zachariah was saying.

12:17

And felt because those were also

12:20

in many ways my experience. And

12:22

so unpacking all of that, together

12:25

with him using literature

12:27

and films. brings us, two persons

12:30

from different culture together. So,

12:32

this is the reason why I became an artist

12:34

and filmmaker, to be able to enable

12:37

us to heal using

12:39

art and to find answers and

12:41

to bring us closer together.

12:44

Can you tell us how

12:47

your feature documentary, Accept

12:49

the Call, came into being

12:51

and where it took you?

12:54

It started a few years

12:57

before I started filming Accept the Call. I

12:59

went to Somalia, and I

13:01

made a short documentary and

13:04

from there, I was so inspired

13:06

by the making of the story,

13:08

seeing, the courageous people

13:11

and how they're trying to rebuild their, their country,

13:13

but at the same time, it makes me

13:15

wonder about their descendants

13:18

or the diaspora. It made me think

13:20

about my own journey back to China

13:22

to understand my ancestors. I took

13:24

a year out of the university and I did

13:26

that. I taught English in China. But

13:28

at the same time, I was thinking about the kids

13:30

who were born outside, of Somalia

13:32

and how they were doing. I guess.

13:35

I'm always curious to see from that

13:37

point of view because I'm one of them, you

13:40

know, one of the displaced. And

13:42

so I told myself that when I go back to America

13:44

that, I would love to make a film, to look into

13:46

that. And the opportunity

13:49

came upon, in 2016,

13:52

there was this big FBI investigation

13:54

right,

13:55

Yeah, 10 kids were caught up in that sting

13:57

Minnesota. I thought this is a terrible thing

14:00

that happened. But at the same time, I kind of

14:02

have a hypothesis that the genesis of,

14:04

the anger and the discontent

14:06

and with them attempting to leave the country to

14:08

join ISIS. Was due

14:10

to the fall off, 911

14:13

and how the Islamophobia in the

14:15

country have pushed these kids to think

14:17

that they're not wanted by, their own country.

14:21

So I thought this is maybe a way for me

14:23

to, tell this story. So I

14:25

went down to Minnesota and I sought

14:27

permission with their families

14:29

and, eventually a few of their families agree

14:32

for me to film them and I decided,

14:34

that was best for me to just follow one family

14:36

to tell the story through. So I stayed with

14:38

them for like three and a half years.

14:41

How do you build trust within a community

14:43

without changing its natural dynamics?

14:47

I think that, trust has to be earned.

14:50

I think it's a process of always

14:52

showing up and always being there

14:54

and also you have to always

14:56

put their interest first and

14:59

foremostly. If they're not comfortable

15:01

with certain things, then

15:03

you have to put down the camera and not film

15:05

it on it. So I

15:08

think that to begin with, you always

15:10

tell them that whatever you feel uncomfortable,

15:13

that you don't want to say, you don't

15:15

have to. I will always ask you

15:17

questions, but you can choose to tell me

15:20

as much as you do want to. But,

15:22

it's also about opening up,

15:24

your own experience and being honest

15:26

with them. And I think honestly, it's

15:29

just like the most important thing that you need

15:31

in order to earn trust. It took me

15:33

more than A year before Zachariah

15:35

actually, agreed to be interviewed. Before

15:38

that his dad and his sister and

15:40

his family were happy to speak

15:42

with me. But, I had

15:44

to earn his trust. It took me a longer

15:46

time.

15:47

And of course he was very displaced from his own

15:49

family for a period of time

15:51

as well. Yeah.

15:54

Let's fast forward. Your latest feature

15:57

documentary, A Town Boys,

15:59

explores the struggles of

16:02

growing up Asian American in the South through

16:04

the lives of two aspiring

16:06

young rappers and a Korean

16:08

gang leader. how did this project

16:11

come about?

16:12

actually it started way before

16:15

I set the call. I was a

16:17

graduate student at NYU, Tisch

16:20

School of the Arts. I met an actress,

16:23

and we became very good friends.

16:25

She came from Georgia, and really this

16:27

is in a way her story, and

16:29

she told me about her, the gang

16:31

leader, Eugene, I was

16:33

so fascinated with it. And then I asked

16:36

her could you Bring me, can I

16:38

meet Eugene? Can I film him? And so

16:40

she said, I don't know. I can ask him. He said,

16:42

yes. And then the both of us flew to

16:45

Atlanta to meet him, I just recorded

16:47

my first interview with him. And from there, it

16:50

evolved and I managed

16:52

to get, funding from Spike

16:54

Lee, my professor.

16:56

Amazing.

16:57

He was very supportive of, me telling this

16:59

story, but he was also, looking

17:02

at the work sample, he say, it's not about the gangs,

17:05

and reminding me that the story is much

17:07

more than that. I said, absolutely, it is

17:09

a way for us to understand why,

17:12

there are all this, young men and women

17:14

who are joining gangs to find themselves.

17:17

So there felt like lies

17:19

a lot of pain make them feel

17:21

so marginalized that they need Join gangs

17:24

in order to sort of find love and

17:26

empathy.

17:27

And A Town Boys, has

17:30

elements of danger and yet

17:32

also elements of sentimentality.

17:34

And I was touched by how both

17:37

of these are very fragile things

17:39

to capture on film. Can

17:42

you tell us how you did that? Hmm. Mm

17:44

Being a former journalist, I guess, I know, how

17:47

to, deal with hostile

17:49

environment, but I would not

17:51

say that this was very hostile

17:53

in the sense that what we were used to,

17:56

but there were still elements of danger because, we're

17:58

following people who walk around with guns. So

18:01

we always have to think about if something

18:03

goes down, what is plan B and how do we

18:05

protect ourselves? So that

18:08

basically allowed me to solve plan ahead

18:10

and also not to shy away from

18:12

certain elements, in their story,

18:14

which, I think that,

18:17

I'm not here to solve, make them look good.

18:19

I'm here to capture their reality. So

18:22

we didn't shy away from it. But at

18:24

the same time, I do

18:27

empathize and their stories resonate

18:29

with me. You come to love these

18:31

characters that are

18:33

in the story that you tell. And

18:36

that, you may not agree with some of the decisions

18:39

they make, but there is a lot of tenderness

18:42

in approaching and trying to

18:44

understand where they're coming from.

18:46

It seems like that non judgmental

18:50

quality that you bring to

18:52

your projects allows

18:54

for a certain truth to shine

18:56

through.

18:57

Yeah, I think that's really important

18:59

because you were

19:02

not here to judge anyone,

19:04

and I think that we need to remember that

19:06

and we need to understand. There is always

19:09

obviously a lot causation, that

19:11

creates it. And so

19:14

we must be sensitive to it because

19:16

if we don't try to,

19:18

understand and to empathize, then

19:21

what is the point in telling stories or

19:23

doing anything really. And how do we

19:25

even find, love and peace.

19:28

Not to say that always has to be the motivation,

19:30

but I think that for us to

19:32

coexist, as human beings,

19:35

we gotta find reasons that brings us

19:38

together more than what tears us apart.

19:41

And I think

19:43

a lot of us as artists, we, you know, strive

19:45

towards that.

19:47

Has the resurgence of anti Asian

19:49

violence affected you and your loved ones?

19:53

Yeah, absolutely. One of

19:55

the, documentary that was working on

19:57

when the pandemic happened, centers

20:00

on understanding the

20:03

rise of white supremacy, in

20:06

this country from the

20:08

story of a Jewish American

20:10

mom in Montana, who was

20:12

the target of neo Nazi who

20:15

launched a troll storm against her. And

20:18

in the midst of that, and the anti Asian

20:20

hate happened. She actually called

20:22

me and asked me whether I was okay. I

20:25

was really moved that, she was thinking about me

20:27

when, she had gone through a lot worse

20:30

before. But I said,

20:32

I'm not surprised why this is happening,

20:34

because I have seen, it happened to

20:36

you. I feel like a lot

20:38

of these, hate, elements,

20:40

Asian hate elements, they all come from

20:42

the same source, of the same

20:45

bigotry. And so I

20:47

feel even more reasons that, we

20:49

should come together and resist

20:51

it and fight back. And a way for us

20:53

to do that is by telling our

20:55

stories. But at the same time,

20:58

I'm not going to walk around, being a walking

21:00

target or something, so I do think

21:03

about how I can protect myself and

21:06

my crew. For us, we look out

21:08

for each other. We protect each other, we're

21:10

not alone. And I think we have to,

21:12

be grateful for that, that sense of

21:14

solidarity and unity, when

21:17

we can find it.

21:18

Definitely.

21:19

Yeah,

21:19

Definitely. Did you have a

21:22

mentor?

21:24

Did I have a mentor? Oh yeah. I

21:26

mean, I have several mentors. And

21:29

they are all, great filmmakers, and

21:32

mostly women, and

21:34

mostly, minority as well.

21:36

They have been guiding me throughout my life.

21:39

I must acknowledge them for paving

21:41

the way to allow, minority

21:44

female filmmakers like me to

21:47

do the work that I do today, largely

21:49

because they paved the way for us.

21:52

Great. What is your golden dream

21:55

as an artist? If you could fast forward

21:57

10 years into the future,

21:59

where and what would you be doing?

22:02

Um, I think I'll still be

22:04

making films and telling stories, at

22:06

least that's what I hope to do. Do

22:09

we ever stop working, perfecting our craft,

22:11

right, Tina? Um,

22:13

exactly.

22:14

yeah, just like you, you're writing, you're

22:16

still running a company. So the same

22:19

thing that I hope, that I will continue to do

22:21

is, not just telling stories and

22:23

making more films both

22:26

narrative and

22:28

nonfiction and documentaries,

22:31

but also I hope to be able

22:33

to, mentor and pave

22:36

the way forward for other

22:38

young, aspiring filmmakers.

22:41

That's great. What

22:44

is next for you? What

22:46

should we be looking out for in the near future?

22:49

I have a couple of projects, you know, they're working

22:52

on. One is actually premiering,

22:54

next February. It's

22:57

called Trollstorm. And it

22:59

is, a story about, a Montana

23:02

Jewish American mom who

23:04

was the target of, a troll storm

23:06

that was launched by Neo Nazi and

23:08

through her story we try to

23:10

understand, the rise of white

23:13

supremacy in America. Present

23:15

day America.

23:17

Will you tell us again where

23:19

we can watch A Town Boys?

23:23

Yes, you can catch A Town Boys

23:25

on Amazon or Tubi. For

23:28

Trollstorm, it's actually premiering at the Big

23:31

Sky Documentary Film Festival.

23:33

So if you're in Missoula, please,

23:35

Join us for the screening. The two

23:37

other films, two other projects

23:40

that I'm working on. One of them is

23:42

about climate change. And

23:44

it's set here in New York city. to

23:47

the life of, A compost champion,

23:49

Domingo. Morales and how

23:51

he struggles to solve. Popularized

23:55

composting, after the

23:57

suicide of his mentor, David buckle.

24:01

We'll definitely look forward to that

24:03

and wish you the very best

24:05

of luck in the future. I was truly

24:07

moved by your documentaries and I'm

24:09

a fan, so I'm looking forward to

24:11

seeing and hearing more.

24:14

Thank you.

24:15

Yeah, thank you for joining us today.

24:17

Thank you, Dana.

24:19

Thank you for tuning in today. Please

24:21

rate the podcast on your listening platform

24:24

and tell your friends. Feel free

24:26

to contact me at slantpodcast.

24:28

com. It's always great to hear

24:30

from you, our listeners. A

24:32

special thanks to our sponsors, the

24:34

Dana Tassun Burgess Dance Company,

24:36

the Cherry Blossom Giving Circle, and

24:39

the Deddy Liam Gunawan Hickory

24:41

Legacy Fund.