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Nicolas Sarkozy was President of France between 2007 and 2012.

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Who taught you history?

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And a sense of the past, has it played an important part in your life and career?

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Would like to say that I've had a magnificent history teacher.

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Unfortunately, very often at school I felt bored.

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And I had to educate myself by myself,

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and I started to be a real student after the baccalaureate.

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I think that you can say that I have started slowly in life, but

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I was not, placing any limits.

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And I understood very soon

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when I started in politics when I was 18,

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that everything always started in the same way.

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Peoples don't change.

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The mode of people doesn't change.

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And I understood that in order to be modern, you have to understand the past.

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Fascinating. and I think you're so right about, about human nature.

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At what moments of your presidency did you most feel the weight

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of history on your shoulders?

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Every second, every minute, every day

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When you are president,

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there are no small or big decisions.

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There are no small or big days.

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The worst

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travels can come from the smallest decisions.

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the sense of history, the weight of history,

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I felt it as soon as I went down down the Champs Élysées on the very first day.

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And I felt it when I left the Élysée Palace on the last day.

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At the time of the bicentenary of the Battle of Austerlitz, the French

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left criticized Napoleon for the sexism of the perceived sexism,

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sexism of the Code Napoleon and for crushing the Haitian slave revolt.

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Is his memory a right versus left issue in France today?

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The left always criticizes everybody who has succeeded.

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Hahaha

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And the left has not a very good taste in terms of lessons from history.

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What are worth criticisms against Napoleon?

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Coming from people who admire Robespierre,

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Danton, and Marat.

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What criticism is worth against Napoleon?

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Coming from people sanctify the Commune of Paris,

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which was a real disgrace who forget that the French Revolution of which they're so proud,

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finished with the terror of which we would be so ashamed,

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And it was Napoleon who. took the mob out of French politics and took the guillotine, essentially

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that ended the reign of terror.

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so do, should, do ordinary Frenchmen, admire him and revere him?

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Napoleon.

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Is the product of disorder coming from the revolution and the terror.

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French people,

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like all peoples around the world need authority.

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Order. Leadership.

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And ambition.

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So if you ask French people,

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Napoleon is very much in their pantheon.

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Unfortunately, it didn't finish well.

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your grandfather was a staunch Gauliste, to, to move from one

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great Frenchman to another.

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what is the legacy of Charles de Gaule the founder of the

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Fifth Republic in France today?.

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France is a country.

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Which is capable of the worst as well as the best.

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The best.

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When France is led by, big leaders.

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Louis XIV, François I, Saint Louis, Charles de Gaulle,

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Napoleon. The worst, when France is not guided.

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The worst can come about

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at that point.

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France likes great ambitions and great leaders.

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Doesn't like small ambitions and small leaders

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France is royalist because it has killed its own king.

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France likes, great kings and great leaders ' cause it

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is more rewarding to kill.

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In a theoretical sense, a great leader or a great king than a very small one.

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Is that why French presidents always, by the cartoonists get

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dressed up in Louis the 14th?

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the grand robes of Louis the 14th, is it an attempt to bring down ordinary leaders?

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Undoubtedly, the president of the Republic is the heir of a very royal tradition

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where the king had all powers.

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The president doesn't hold all the powers.

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Let us say that.

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Royalty led to a leadership,

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which is not

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a parliamentary system that our British friends know with a king.

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Yes, we see that in America, don't we, because the French pre the American President,

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has more power than even King George III, who they revolted against.

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Even, I always thought that the United States, who have never had a king,

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have given themselves royal families.

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Kennedy. It's a family

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Bush.

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It is true that Trump has not got much royal, characteristics.

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The Clintons came close, but didn't quite make it.

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Clinton, Bill, Hillary, and their daughter even.

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Absolutely.

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And she, if she were the Democratic nominee, could have beaten,

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president Trump in this election.

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But I know Michelle Obama well.

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And it is certain that she has great leadership,

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just like Hillary Clinton also had great leadership.

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You won the 2007 election against Ségolène Royale of the Socialist Party.

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which has now virtually disappeared in French politics.

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How will historians of the future explain this phenomenon?

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Because the left wasn't able to renew its speech, its discourse.

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France is the country in Europe where taxes are highest.

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Where the distribution of riches is the highest

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and where the feeling of injustice is also highest.

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So what is left for the left to say?

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Raise taxes.

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It's impossible at the level they are at.

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And this reminds me a little bit of the period before Margaret Thatcher in the UK.

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The marginal charge of, taxes was 98% at that point in the UK.

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And we had, you had to wait until Tony Blair

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in order to renew completely the thought process, on the left.

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The French left doesn't have such a leader

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Turning from the left to the hard right. There are hard right governments in Italy and Hungary, and they are

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strong in Holland, and they are junior members of coalitions, in

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several ruling coalitions in Europe.

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the hard right is projected to win more seats than the European People's

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Party in the coming elections.

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What can be done about this rise of the hard right, especially amongst the young?

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It was a great mistake to imagine that Brexit was an English problem

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that was a European problem.

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European leaders should have paid more attention to the discontent

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expressed by British people.

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Because the European model was out of breath.

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Now, as far as the hard right is concerned,

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the journalists still call them.

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Extreme right far right, but they're no longer far right

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Saying that there's too much immigration is not really, the purview of, the

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far right It is just common sense.

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Sayin that you want to defend the identity of your country

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is not a notion that belongs only to the far right.

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It's a question of common sense.

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So the discontent from people on immigration

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was, negated by the elite.

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It was silenced.

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And now, the people of Europe want to be heard. The peoples of Europe want to make their voice heard.

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So we're living on a Europe that has worked quite well over the last 70 years.

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But it is time to invent the new Europe for the next 70 years.

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At that point, we'll be able to, offer the British a possibility to come back in.

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And at that point, we will, be able to do both integration and enlargement.

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Speaking of integration, you had a strong relationship with, Angela Merkel.

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Today, the Franco German entente seems under various strains.

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How important is it for Europe to have a powerful French

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German entente at its core? It's absolutely vital.

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France and Germany went to war every 30 years

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between Louis XIV and 1945.

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We have witnessed three world wars, not two, three,

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because the war in 1871 was also a World War.

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Peoples don't change.

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And it is thanks to Europe that we have piece between France and Germany

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we have no choice either we are friends or we are enemies.

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Countries do not move to a different address.

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And when France and Germany is at war, it's the whole

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of Europe that is destroyed. That is a vital subject.

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I've often had disagreements with Mrs Merkel.

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We are very different. But I have never said a word against her publicly.

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Because the consequences of such public opposition are too serious.

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We French people, we can, fight with the Italians.

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That doesn't matter at all, because we love each other.

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With the Germans. It's not possible but the British, it is more complicated.

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I always wanted for Britain to stay in Europe.

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I've also, I even wanted the first president of Europe

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to be Tony Blair, British.

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I admire Britain

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and I thought that the entente cordiale

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was very little. I wanted to push it to the friendly entente .

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I've had a very good working relationship with Tony Blair . With Gordon Brown also, and even with David Cameron.

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For me, Brexit is a useless divorce.

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Many statements today are thinking deeply about how to compete with

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China, but also to, contain China.

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Where do you think we're heading?

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. I'm not as pessimistic as that.

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I think it's rather good news that China wants to play a world role.

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Because we need china in order to fight against climate change.

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To bring peace.

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If we were, Chinese, we would do exactly what they're doing.

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I add to that, that it is not the Chinese who want to have the first position.

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It's the Americans since Obama,

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who have decided not to hold the first position.

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And nature doesn't like void.

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Furthermore, for me, the great power of tomorrow.

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It's going to be India.

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That's certainly true of demographics.

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At the moment, and also of course having a democracy helps.

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Am I allowed to tell the historian in front of me whom I admire and respect?

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I admire and respect.

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It's demography that makes history.

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It's not history that makes demography.

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That would be a good exam question for a university.

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For me there is no doubt whatsoever.

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When you have one and a half billion inhabitants,

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you are top of the class.

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The axis of the world has shifted.

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It has traveled from the west to the east.

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And why is that? For one reason

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on 8 billion inhabitants.

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The East represents 4 billion.

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The West less than 800 million.

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It's done. You believe it's all over.

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It's all over by the shouting, as we say, and,

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I'm sure. Maybe tomorrow, it will be Africa,

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who has one billion, two hundred and fifty million,

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and in thirty years may have two billion, but this won't be the West.

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If you realize that In 30 years time,

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Nigeria, alone

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is going to be more populated than the United States of America,

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if you think that the most populated cities in the world.

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Beijing, Mexico City, have 28 million inhabitants.

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In 30 years time, Lagos, which is not the capital city of Nigeria,

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will have 40 million inhabitants.

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Once again, it's done.

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Yes, the, the average age in Africa is 19,

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whereas in Italy it is 41,

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and in Japan, it's 47. In China, the average age is going up.

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That's a Chinese proverb that says,

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when the wise man shows the moon,

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the stupid man looks at the finger.

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We are looking at China,

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but there are other places to look.

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You have said that you think that the Russo Ukrainian war,

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should end with a ceasefire and negotiation.

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You yourself negotiated a ceasefire in the Russo Georgian war.

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What's it like negotiating with Vladimir Putin?

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I do not understand why we're telling the Israelis to stop the war.

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You must stop war immediately because war, has, civilian victims

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and we tell the Ukrainians,

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you must carry on and increase war.

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I've had dozens of conversations with Vladimir Putin,

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some of them very harsh.

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In one month we managed to sort out the Georgian crisis.

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The Russian tanks had entered into Georgia.

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There were 25 kilometers away from Tbilisi, the capital city.

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After our negotiations, they went away.

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I believe in diplomacy.

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I believe in dialogue.

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But I think that we must reinvent completely

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the structures of multilateral dialogue.

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Things cannot go on like this.

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The permanent members of the Security Council,

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have been appointed at a certain time when the world population was two and a half billion inhabitants.

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It has increased threefold since then.

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We must change the composition.

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The security council members for the permanent members.

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There isn't a single African country who is a permanent member.

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India is not a permanent member.

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Japan is not a permanent member.

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There isn't a single Arab or Muslim country

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a single Latin American country who is a permanent member.

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And I think it's dangerous. Well, it's a hangover from the Second World War, of course.

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Not really.

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It's a legacy of the 20th century.

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For 24 years, we've had already been in the 21st century,

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and it is high time. we give to the 21st century the multilateral structures it needs.

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But if you added those extra five countries to the security council,

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would they also have the veto?

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Each of them? Absolutely.

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The Soviet Union had a veto.

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And it worked.

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You mentioned Gaza.

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In January 2009, you called for a ceasefire in Gaza.

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But after the 7th of October of last year,

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can there be any meaningful long term ceasefire In Gaza, while Hamas still exists as

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a functioning military force there?

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I think there is no other solution than the two state solution.

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For the Palestinians and also for the security of Israel,

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but. acknowledging, Palestinian state.

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must be preceded by a, acknowledgement of the right of Israel

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to exist, and this has to come from all the tendencies of Palestinian people.

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Can you see Hamas agreeing to that? It

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doesn't matter. The Europeans have a special responsibility.

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Towards the survival of Israel.

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Why is that?

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Because the Shoah was perpetrated by the first civilization in Europe, the Germans.

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It is not the Arabs that, did the Shoah.

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It was the Germans.

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The europeans in Europe,

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existence of Israel is the result of the Shoah,

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the Europeans cannot accept.

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As a putting in danger of the very existence of Israel because

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the Shoah happened in Europe.

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But so can you see a European military force, defending Israel if it was

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one of two states in Palestine.

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It's a possibility.

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It can be a kind of a force that, gets in the middle with some Arab

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countries like the Emiratis, for example, that, get in between.

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Thank you. Now what history book or biography, are you reading at the moment?

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And you are allowed to mention that brilliant book that your son has written.

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I'm very proud of my son.

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And I think that at his age, I wouldn't have been able to write a book like the

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one he wrote on the readings of Napoleon.

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So if you're asking me what historical book am I reading,

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I'm reading a book on the dark years of the occupation in France,

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and on the complexity of the resistance movements

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among themselves,

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between them and the English, British,

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and it's a fascinating,

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piece of history and a very complicated story,

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and I have a feeling that, the whole truth is not yet known on this episode.

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What's the author and the title?

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Can you remember?

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American or English author.

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He's worked a lot on the arrest of Jean Moulin.

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Yes, yes, absolutely. I've seen the reviews, they're very good reviews.

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It's absolutely fascinating book.

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Yeah, about who, who betrayed Jean Moulin and it's still a great debate.

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And it's like a thriller.

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And it's very important for me because I have to remove my mind,

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about this period of the story of my country.

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And the book we mentioned earlier about your son, Louis Sarkozy, which is called

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Napoleon's Library, the emperor, his books and their influence on the Napoleonic era.

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It's an extraordinary, work of history written before, this

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young man got into his thirties.

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and I'm talking about Louis, not Napoleon.

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It is very strange, and I admire my son, no, not because he's my son,

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I love because he's my son, I love him, but I admire him because he's

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young and fascinated by Napoleon.

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Because he live in Washington.

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And he's fascinating from Napoleon, because he speaks fluently American,

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he lives in America, but he did not forget any truth in France.

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And I'm very proud and very happy with that.

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The, collective noun for historians is a malice.

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My last, question, Mr. President

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A, what is your favourite what if, your counterfactual history,

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where history could have gone a different way?

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In which period? Any period you like in history where, the, it went one way and

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it could have gone the other. A battle that was lost that could have been won.

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The most important thing in life, not in history,

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is detail.

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And I like detail.

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And when I was president, I understood that.

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Detail is the most important thing.

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Look at Napoleon.

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He loved his wife.

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He was strong in his leadership.

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He was weak with his wife.

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Detail. Look at General de Gaulle.

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If Paul Reynaud and Mandel went to England before,

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You would not know the goal.

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No, or if they went to Algeria, which of course they should have done.

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Yeah, absolutely. And I like detail.

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And we like to meet the great ordinator of this detail.

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And for me, I knew that.

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I call Sarkozy, I live in a building with my mother.

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Nobody, absolutely nobody knows our family.

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And I succeed

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to become President.

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Why me? You know success is also unfair than failure.

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And it, and to be a master of detail helps more than charisma, more than oratory.

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What is charisma?

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Where did it come?

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How definite charisma?

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I don't know. It's an artificial construct.

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And I am not able to explain why I did politics,

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the only thing important, I did.

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It's even when you explain that you love your wife or woman.

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Why do you love this woman?

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No matter. You love.

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The only thing important in life, it's not what you think,

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it's what you do.

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Both of your wives are extremely beautiful and accomplished women, so

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one can understand why you would fall in love with either of them, frankly.

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Thank you for emphasizing that.

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My eyes are very large. President Sarkozy, thank you very much indeed for appearing

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on Secrets of Statecraft.

33:25

Thank you so much for inviting me.

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Thank you so much for all your kindness.

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And I apologize for answering to you in English at the end of the interview,

33:36

but I think for your auditors, it is a proof of my while to congratulate them

33:48

and to tell them I like English people.

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Merci beaucoup. Ha!

33:56

No, no, no, I'm not going... We're not going to go down that route, I assure you.

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I think you've got the extent of my French there.

34:07

Thank you, Mr. President. On the next Secrets of Statecraft, my guest will be Con Coughlin, the veteran

34:14

defence and foreign affairs editor of the Daily Telegraph, since 2006.