We kick off the Second Drafts podcast with the first episode, where we’ll be introducing ourselves and telling you a bit more about us. We won’t hog the spotlight like this every week, promise!

We discuss some basics — where we’re from, what we like to read, who we admire, and what we create.

Enjoy! And let us know what you think in the comments below.

SECOND-DRAFTS PODCAST – EPISODE 0 – INTRODUCING YOUR HOSTS

TRANSCRIPT

JEREMY:

Okay welcome to Second Drafts Podcast everything you need to write edit and publish your way. I’m Jeremy.

ETHAN:

And I’m EJ

JEREMY:

And today on Second Drafts we’ll be talking about us. So we’re doing a relatively new podcast here and so we want to introduce ourselves the right way so basically what we’ll be doing today is interviewing each other for us and for you. It’s actually our first time speaking together isn’t that right Ethan?

ETHAN:

Yeah it is. It’s a bit of a new thing going on here, but I’m looking forward to it.

JEREMY:

Yeah I was kind of prepared for your exotic accent there.

ETHAN:

You reckon?

JEREMY:

Yeah I knew… knew some people actually from South Africa they moved over to place relatively close to where I live – they were family friends and they had the same accent as you there so.

ETHAN:

Ah, that’s interesting.

JEREMY:

For those who don’t know, Ethan is currently in South Africa.

ETHAN:

Mmm, born and bred.

JEREMY:

And I’m from New Brunswick, Canada on pretty much different spectrums of the world here so.

ETHAN:

(Laughs)

JEREMY:

Alright so let’s get into that interview there. So get right into it, first question: so Ethan what inspired you to write your novel The Birth of Chaos?

ETHAN:

Yeah Birth of Chaos… I’ve had the story floating around in my head for 10 years or more probably, and it’s just… I’ve always been a fan of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series and just love the way it’s written and the magic system in it and to a lesser extent I’m also a fan of The Song of ice and fire series but you know… who isn’t nowadays with the TV series being so popular?

JEREMY:Yeah, for sure.

ETHAN:

But, yeah, I’ve always been keen to write a story about sword and sorcery that’s the genre that I like and I try to infuse it a bit more with family values and inspired by those kinds of things, so yeah, that’s the first book in what I hope is a very long series.

JEREMY:

I hope so too. I’ve read it and I’m eagerly anticipating the next one.

ETHAN:

I am very glad and what about you and your Queen Anne’s Revenge series. How did that come about?

JEREMY:

Well, as we were talking earlier there I am a little bit of a gamer I like video games and I was playing this particular game and its it was interesting because they said something about the ship being the treasure and so it ended up being different in the game but it basically kind of made me think like all the pirate adventure series you know they’re always looking for treasure they’re following maps to like hidden locations and solving puzzles and riddles and that sort of thing, and it’s always for treasure. So what if the ship itself was what they were looking for? That kind of snowballed into what we have today with Blackbeard and I’ve always loved pirates and Blackbeard is my favourite pirate so had to kinda incorporate that in there with a spin on that history and little bit of mix of Pirates of the Caribbean of course in there as well can’t help it be inspired by that.

ETHAN:

Of course.

JEREMY:

So your novel is really long, it’s huge, so what was the hardest part of writing it? Was it the length or…?

ETHAN:

I think well this at first the hardest part is always just for me getting the whole thing down in first draft form. I just I don’t know I just have so much trouble with getting myself to sit down and actually putting words on paper… or, well, on file. So it’s a bit of a perfectionist tendency with me I find I struggle a bit with that, hoping that at some point we’ll be looking at some strategies for defeating perfectionism but as soon as you got the whole thing down then the hardest part becomes actually deciding what to keep. There were several parts… there was a whole story with a tiger that was actually meant to be in the story from the beginning I’ve always wanted it there and right at the end I had to decide… This thing was even longer, it was 260,000 words and at some point I had to decide, look, CreateSpace just won’t let me print this length of book it’s become too thick, so I had to make some drastic cuts but I think the result was definitely stronger for it so I don’t regret it.

JEREMY:

I didn’t know that they had limits on that side of things.

ETHAN:

Yeah, not hard limits, it’s just the way the pricing starts to work out. If you start having to charge $30 for a book and you know that’s never going to happen. And how about you and your Blackbeard series?

JEREMY:

Well, as you probably already know, since Ethan has been editing my past couple novels, I am not very good grammar or punctuation and sort of thing. I wouldn’t say that’s the hardest part of writing a novel but editing it myself like trying to find those things and cut it down and make it at least a little bit easier for your side of things is definitely the most difficult. And just trying to stay motivated while editing. I really enjoy the creation side of writing but then editing is… it’s more difficult.

ETHAN:

Yeah, it comes back to a bit of… one part doesn’t feel like work I think while the other ones definitely feels like work.

JEREMY:

Nobody likes to work.

ETHAN:

Well, if we have the choice… But you don’t have to worry it’s not like the manuscripts you send me have that much work in them. It’s not that bad, trust me I think you may think it’s a bit worse than it is.

JEREMY:

Well, we’re always our hardest critic I think, so…

ETHAN:

Definitely

JEREMY:

Ok, so I’m interested in this one personally because, again, I love your story, so if your novel was turned into a TV show or movie who you think would play whom?

ETHAN:

That’s a tough one, but I think all writers dream about this one don’t they? Everybody has this thing in the back of their mind. It’s very tough one, especially for the children in the story, I honestly don’t know because child actors they just move so quickly and they grow up so quickly and by the time you think “oh this might be a good one” then next thing you know they’re grown up actors. For the children characters I really have no idea, but for my grown-up characters I would say for Queen Tharinya I have a soft spot for Charlize Theron and this is blatant favouritism, you might be able to tell since she’s one of our proudest exports from South Africa, but I really do love her acting. I love her as an actress and everything she does. I can really imagine her doing that role well. And then I think for the male characters… most of them I’m not sure about. I think Aeolus is supposed to be this upstanding noble-looking soldier, so I guess someone like Sullivan Stapleton might work. For Azhira for her bit of an evil streak I think Eva Green would be very good with those evil-looking eyes. I think she makes a fantastic villain. Those are the only ones that I really have a clear picture of. How about you, Blackbeard’s Revenge who would play your characters?

JEREMY:

Well I was just looking up who I was thinking of… Gerard Butler, are you familiar with him?

ETHAN:

Oh yes.

JEREMY:

I think he would make a great Blackbeard, and I it’s just looking at the movie 300 and just his screams and his beard and everything… It just seems to fit right. But he’s a little older so…

ETHAN:

He is a bit older… Blackbeard’s more 20 I think?

JEREMY:

Yeah, in my stories. He wouldn’t do for a young Blackbeard, unfortunately. I’m not sure who could be a younger one, but he would be fun for a Blackbeard type character.

ETHAN:

Yeah, definitely.

JEREMY:

As far as the other character… the other main character, Anne… I’m not too sure on her. The only redhead that I can think of this is… I can’t think of her name anymore unfortunately…

ETHAN:

How about Isla Fisher?

JEREMY:

Yeah, Isla Fisher. She’s a little bit older though.

ETHAN:

She is now… yeah. I still remember her from my younger days.

JEREMY:

I’m looking it up right now… the girl from Amazing Spider-Man…

ETHAN:

Ah, Emma Stone!

JEREMY:

Emma Stone, yeah, she played a redhead in a couple films. I think she kinda has that look.

ETHAN:

Definitely, she would make a fantastic Anne, I think. But it’s strange how many actors from… I just realized how many actors from the 300 movies we took because there’s Gerard Butler, Eva Green, and Sullivan so there’s three of them from the 300 movies. That’s a bit strange.

JEREMY:

(Laughs) I guess we just like that film.

ETHAN:

I guess maybe we do.

JEREMY:

So what draws you to writing? When did you decide that you wanted to write? You’re in IT right?

ETHAN:

Yes, I’m in IT by day. A code monkey. In my spare time I do something a bit more creative. I’ve dreamed of writing books since I was in high school maybe, and that time I realized that I had a bit of a knack for writing. I liked it, it was fun to do. My parents were big readers as well, so as I grew up my house was one where books were very much respected and cared for so I think that might all be a part on that. I just grew up with this culture of writing and I just like the idea of being able to contribute to that. It’s almost like a legacy thing. So that sounds like pretty much it for me I think… what about you?

JEREMY:

Well, when I was younger… well it’s almost like I’m beating a dead horse here, but I really was into video games mainly, and definitely my parents they taught me how to read and everything, it wasn’t a matter of comprehension it was just more attention span really. I wanted to get into video games because of the story and I wanted to create a story there and just kind of do the same thing as what I felt when I was younger playing those games, but then as I was almost starting to actually get into that I found that the people who do the coding, almost like your side of things, they don’t have any say in the story.

ETHAN:

Yeah, they wouldn’t.

JEREMY:

And story isn’t a big focus when it comes to video games. Certain ones are more story-oriented, but it’s still not really the focus. So I just kind of started dabbling in writing, and I found that I did enjoy writing. I do read, not to alarm anyone who might be listening… I do read… It’s just, before exiting high school I didn’t read too much and didn’t write anything, so it was after high school I started and found a passion for it, and kept going. And then eventually ended up of course self-publishing just like yourself. With the self publishing side of things, did you try going traditional, or…?

ETHAN:

Uhh, actually, no. I haven’t actually tried the traditional route. I’m still new to this, I haven’t had a lot of time in it, but I must say I like the idea with self-pub… the freedom you’ve got. I can’t imagine putting all this work into a story and not even getting to choose the cover. That would drive me crazy! I had so much fun getting the cover done for my first book. Turned it into a contest over at 99designs (http://99designs.com), and that was a lot of fun and I can’t imagine going without that. To me, it’s part of the whole process. How about you, did you ever try traditional publishing?

JEREMY:

Not really, when I first started getting into the writing side of things just finding out that rejection is very commonplace and they generally choose more to the market rather than if a story is really good or not… I don’t really feel like writing the next Twilight, (Laughs) I’d rather write what I want to write… right?

ETHAN:

(Laughs) Yes, please stick to Blackbeard.

JEREMY:

So, yeah, I basically went for the self-publish just for the freedom that it gives with creating and writing a story and I’ve never really tried for the traditional publishing side of things. I mean if someone was to approach and give a nice big advance, then for sure I’d probably take that, but for now…

ETHAN:

Depends on the deal. (Laughs)

JEREMY:

(Laughs) Yeah. For now I’m definitely going to stick with the self-publishing. So, I’m interested in who inspires you, and we can also tie it in with the next question as well: are they your favourite author and why, if it is an author?

ETHAN:

It just occurred to me right when you asked the question that I did select and author but I suppose it wasn’t complete necessary for it to be an author, but by chance it is. At the risk of sounding cliché I would say Stephen King which I think many people would say this, but it’s something about the way he writes. His books tend to make me want to get up right there and go write on my story, which you know we’re not even writing the same genre, so I can’t explain it.

JEREMY:

What about his Dark Tower series, I think it’s called?

ETHAN:

Fair enough, fair enough. He does write in the fantasy genre. I haven’t read that yet, and I really should and I really want to. Is he still writing that or is it done already? I haven’t been keeping up with it.

JEREMY:

I think it’s done, I haven’t read it myself either, but I’ve heard a lot of good things. Also heard rumours that they’re going to be possibly making it into a TV show.

ETHAN:

Ah, yes. Well, he’s been doing Under the Dome, so I can’t imagine this one not getting its own show. But the other thing about Stephen King, I’ve read his memoir, or quasi-memoir, On Writing, and I always come away from that story… well that book… inspired to jump into my next book. When you look what he writes, it’s proof that you can write awesome stories even while you’re going through some pretty dark times in your life. A lot of things you can get past and write past, and it’s a bit scary to think of sometimes, but even these situations can generate some of the best… I mean his books are some of the most iconic books of our generation. But for favourite author I must say my favourite author tends to be the one whoever wrote the last fantastic book I’ve read. For the longest time that was Robert Jordan because I was such a fan of Wheel of Time, and then after that I went through a horror phase and so it was Dean Koontz for a bit and then it was Stephen King for a bit. Then recently I must say I discovered Joe Abercrombie and the First Law series. Some fantastic writing in there and I don’t know whether that goes to say he’s my favourite author now, but, you know, he’s right up there contending with the rest. And then if all goes well next will be Scott Lynch. I’m hoping.

JEREMY:

Well, let’s face it Ethan, obviously your favourite author is me, right? (Laughs)

ETHAN:

(Laughs) Of course! Naturally, definitely top 5.

JEREMY:

You don’t… you know… have to not mention it just because this is our podcast.

ETHAN:

I’m trying to keep you modest, you know, just trying… So what about you? Favourite author?

JEREMY:

Well, for author of novels, definitely I found the author D.J. MacHale who wrote this series called Pendragon, not sure if you’ve ever heard of it, it’s actually more a young adult fiction. That’s when I read it, when I was a young adult. Just the way he can create a story and create a world where it feels like anything can happen, like I just really love that sort of style. If you go into the next book, anything can happen and it’s all kind of self-explanatory in the makeup of the world, like “yeah, this can happen.” You can have weird things, weird occurrences and it’s all just kind of normal in that fictional world and I just really like that style of a story, and that really inspired me to get writing as well. And there’s another series, it’s actually a comic, called One Piece, it’s a Japanese comic, and kind of almost the same thing… it’s actually about pirates as well and it kind of inspired me for my current series… but it’s kind of the same situation like he’s created this world where anything can happen in it and just… so imaginative, and it just blows me away every time. It’s definitely inspiring to me for sure.

ETHAN:

Awesome!

JEREMY:

And those are also my favourite authors, but the same as you I love the Wheel of Time, the first book at least… unfortunately it went downhill for me after that.

ETHAN:

That’s a lot of downhill.

JEREMY:

Well, we’ll talk about it another day… our gripes on other books, but… I like the Sword of Truth series, like that one, Game of Thrones… The Song of Ice and Fire I really like those. Just the way it’s really mature, the Song of Ice and Fire, and how he kills off some of his key characters, but it’s like it would happen because it’s more realistic. The characters aren’t being smart, so obviously something’s going to happen to them.

ETHAN:

Not many people have the guts to do that to their characters, I must say.

JEREMY:

It just feels like a natural flow with that, and I want to make sure as best as I can of course, I’m not as good as these guys, like I try to think about that. Like if this was to happen, what would really happen, not giving them plot armour as it were.

ETHAN:

Yeah, much more preferable.

JEREMY:

So, onto the next question. What do you love/hate about writing?

ETHAN:

I’ll probably begin with the hate, because… It’s tough, you know I love writing in general, but I must admit that I love having written more. Sometimes the writing itself is just… I don’t know… sometimes it just feels like a bit of a chore. It’s probably linked to my bad case of perfectionism, always having to battle against that. I just find it so difficult to move onto the next part, the next chapter, the next section, if I don’t feel that the one I just finished is just perfect, and of course it’s never perfect it’s just one of those things and it’s a long battle. But then there are those times when the writing just flies and the story just seems to write itself, it just goes and you lose two hours and you think “Whoa, where did all the time go?” And you sit there and you’ve got two thousand new words, and that is nice.

JEREMY:

Yeah.

ETHAN:

And I must say this is often when I’m writing the histories, you know, things that will almost never appear in the story itself but are background info I need to know how the world operates and who this character is and so writing the history and doing the world building just sucks me in and I can spend hours just building worlds, but of course at some point I need to come back out and do the actual story, right, otherwise it’s all gonna be for nothing. But, in short, that’s mine. How about you? Loves and hates?

JEREMY:

Well, I kind of already mentioned them there. Definitely I do not like editing.

ETHAN:

Of course.

JEREMY:

And my biggest love about writing is just creating. It’s always corny when somebody say it, but hearing the character’s voice kind of coming out and happening naturally. Like certain parts of the novel I had plans in mind, but because of the characters it happened a lot earlier than what I had anticipated because of how things were progressing and how I knew that they would react and it would happen a lot sooner rather than later. No spoilers of course, but I’m sure you understand that.

ETHAN:

Oh, definitely. The characters kind of take on a life of their own and just tweak the story this way and that way, and yeah it’s fantastic sometimes having that happen.

JEREMY:

Speaking of your story, it feels like the assassin character almost kind of felt to me like that. It seemed like maybe you had something in mind, but it felt like it went off in a better direction… maybe?

ETHAN:

You actually picked up on that? I promise you she was not intended, she was not a character I even thought about. She was this mousy little servant girl, and at the point I where I wrote her on the ship the first time, where the queen just chases her out of the cabin, she was literally just a regular old servant girl. When I created her she was just that. And it was only much later in the story where I thought “this needs something, there’s something missing,” and all of a sudden… I don’t know… that just happened. It was crazy, actually. I didn’t realize that it comes through so clearly in the story, I might have to look at that.

JEREMY:

Well, yeah, I don’t know if I actually picked up on it. I just really liked that character so I paid attention to that.

ETHAN:

Well, then you’re going to like the second book, I think. We’ll have to wait until we get there.

JEREMY:

You gotta stop teasing me on that, geez. You mentioned writing a couple thousand words in a couple hours, what’s your typical day like when you’re writing, do you sometimes manage that or is that few and far between?

ETHAN:

Writing a couple thousand words in a couple hours is few and far between at the moment. What I do is get up at 5 in the morning, by 6 I’m at the office for my day job. I’m at the office from 6 to 6 because usually I can’t get away from the traffic as it’s too hectic. Luckily all the waiting around gives me a lot of time, so in the morning from 6 to 8 I can typically about get two hours done. It’s a bit difficult to concentrate in the office because you’re there in a place that’s not your home and it’s work, so focussing there can be a bit of a challenge. At lunchtime I take an hour to write if I have no editing going on, and then in the evening I get home and usually I’m too tired after a full day of working. I usually think to myself “well, there’s three hours in the evening before I have to go to bed,” but you’ve got a family and you have to give attention to your household, your family, your pets, other things that need attention as well. Usually, if I’m lucky I get those two hours a day in the morning between 6 and 8. That’s the best I can hope for. And how about you?

JEREMY:

Well, basically almost the same. Waking up, I catch up on different sites and email and everything like that. Just trying to get those out of the way first off and then trying to work on the tutorial videos that if you’ve been on our YouTube channel you’ve should probably have already seen one there. Just working on those, trying to get them scripted out and trying to get them shot and everything. And then I’ll probably look them over, edit them, and have to reshoot them again a couple days later. As far as writing, unfortunately that’s taken a back seat at the moment, but generally if I’m in the writing phase of things I like to write for a few hours and then break it up almost take breaks in between when I can. Just have to keep that flow going, write, break, write, break, that sort of thing.

ETHAN:

Sounds good. Sounds busy.

JEREMY:

Little too busy, unfortunately. Hopefully I can get on top of it and get back to writing again. These videos are taking up a lot of my time. Hopefully you guys appreciate it. (Laughs)

ETHAN:

(Laughs) I’m sure they do.

JEREMY:

So, how do you come up with your ideas? I know we talked about it a little earlier how they flow naturally with the character, but plot you definitely need to plan in advance, so how do they come about?

ETHAN:

Ideas for plot? I must say I’m a bit of a gamer myself, so I tend to get around with the different games and the stories there, and I do watch a lot of movies, and I don’t usually go out looking specifically for plot ideas. It just sometimes happens. Something about a game will strike me as interesting, like this last week I played a lot of Crusader Kings and I must say getting to know how the counties and duchies and kingdoms and things meshed together, how vassals and lieges and all those things work has given me quite a few new ideas for parts of my story that do use those mechanics. Like the different Lords that report to the King and how they might be backstabbing one another, and this one might be having the other one’s child as a ward and have that as leverage in negotiations and stuff. A lot of interesting things that kind of show up as you go about your life in general, I suppose. But you would know about that being a gamer yourself I’m sure that’s a big influence for you as well.

JEREMY:

Yeah, definitely. I mentioned it at the beginning, but certain things will happen and it’ll make me think of something in a really random way and that’s kind of what gives me that inspiration. I have to make sure I write it down before I forget it.

ETHAN:

That’s a big thing. I’m terrible at that. There must be a hundred ideas that I’ve just forgotten by now. I must really stick to that and keep myself dedicated to that. (Laughs)

JEREMY:

(Laughs) Yeah. So, something will happen, like as I was mentioning in the game it will say a sentence and I’ll pick out two words and I’ll think about it for a second and it’ll give me an idea. As far as the actual plot, sometimes I’ll have to actually think it out one by one what I’d like to happen or what I’d like to see. Definitely it’s developed over the course of writing. With most of them I have a couple ideas in mind of what I want to happen, but as I’m writing it more stuff will come about. Like the middle parts, once I reach the plot it kind of just happens naturally.

ETHAN:

Sounds good, sounds about right.

JEREMY:

So, when you get stuck on a particular plot point in your writing, writer’s block, how do you deal with that?

ETHAN:

I’ve had a couple instances of that happening. I don’t really… I prefer not to believe that writer’s block really exists, although you have to admit that there are times when it feels much more difficult to write than others. There are those periods where I want to write but actually sitting down and getting it done is… One thing I found that helps is having multiple projects in different genres so that when one blocks me and my mind refuses to work on a fantasy story, then when I switch over to my sci-fi story sometimes it just jiggles something loose and I find that I can work on the sci-fi a bit. I suspect it’s just I  sometimes get tired of one story, and giving myself a break and working on a different one, that often does the trick. Do you have writer’s block?

JEREMY:

Well, not sure if I would call it writer’s block, but when I have been writing in the past, generally I do it in big chunks. So I try to take quite a bit of time, devote say a month, and give myself a word count and just try and meet that every single day. I feel having that structure to it helps out quite a bit, but then I take a lot of breaks in between. Like if I take a month say I might even take more time off, which I kind of gotta get out of the habit of. So, say with the first book, I think I wrote it over the course of a year the actual writing part, and it was a month at a time, so for each month I wrote a third of the book. But then there was several months in between each time that I took the time to write, so I could have had it done a lot sooner if I hadn’t of done that, but I still felt that that structure helped out when I was writing. So I just kind of kept pushing… pushing past and getting it written and getting that word count and I feel that that really helps out quite a bit and that’s my advice at least to other writers if anyone else is listening to this and wants to write and gets writers block just I feel giving yourself a word count each day, make sure that it’s a reasonable amount and just try to make sure you keep with it.

ETHAN:

Good advice.

JEREMY:

So, we kind of already touched on it there, but do you have any other advice for aspiring authors there?

ETHAN:

I would say just go for it. You know if it’s in you to write, if there’s a story begging to be told, just do yourself and the world a favour and just tell it. There’s a lot of things to worry about, you know people worry about “Is there going to be a market for this?” “Are people going to like it?” “Is it good enough?” “Is it in a state where it’s perfect and it doesn’t need to be edited at all?” Some people kind of really expect that of themselves, and in the end if you expect all of that from yourself you’re never going to get along with it, you’re never actually going to produce anything. So, none of that matters, just get the story written as best you can, get yourself a good editor, and worry about the other stuff later. Everything can be fixed afterward, but getting the story told is the big thing and that’s something you just have to do and muscle through. How about you?

JEREMY:

Well, I definitely agree with you wholeheartedly there. Just kind of the same thing. You just have to write it, keep writing, if you have writer’s block just push through it, and just gotta get it out there. Same thing as you were saying, just to touch on it a bit more, you were saying about trying to edit it perfectly, for sure you might miss a few grammar or spelling mistakes that sort of thing, but everyone’s opinion is going to be different as far as plot or story and stuff like that so if you feel that they plot or the story is not going to be liked then you’re just lying to yourself at that point because if you like it, somebody else is going to like it.

ETHAN:

Yeah, exactly. There’s a market for just about anything and everything, so there’s really no point in worrying about that.

JEREMY:

And, if you know, you go for the traditional route in publishing and they reject you, then just self-publish.

ETHAN:

You do have backups.

JEREMY:

Yeah. And, you can even just use the self-publishing as a route to get you traditionally published. There are tons of people who’ve done that before, who’ve self-published and then sold a lot and they were picked up by a traditional publisher. And I know I’ve been talking about this in my blog a lot, and if anyone is reading that they’re going to recognize it already, The Martian. I haven’t read it unfortunately, but I’m just raving about the movie and it started as a self-published novel because nobody would pick it up and now look at it.

ETHAN:

Fantastic.

JEREMY:

He just wrote it, and he did it. You just gotta get it done.

ETHAN:

Even if you have to view the self-publishing route as the learning curve to get yourself ready, publish ten short stories if you have to, publish two novels. It’s not necessary to have it as a goal, “I’m doing this specifically so I can get picked up by…” That’s a dream you can have to get picked up by a big publisher, but having it as a goal that’s a bit dicey because you can’t control that. But every book that you put out is definitely going to be practice and it’s definitely going to make you better each time, which is, I think, the big value in it. And then, if along the way you pick up a following, you pick up a fanbase and you start selling a lot, then score.

JEREMY:

Even Stephen King, he got rejected twenty-some odd times before he got picked up, and now look at him. He just kept writing, he just kept doing it, and he kept persevering and I think that’s the best advice anyone can give is to just keep doing it.

ETHAN:

Definitely.

JEREMY:

Well, that kind of is all of our questions, so we’ll just shamelessly plug our novels now before we close this off. (Laughs)

ETHAN:

(Laughs)

JEREMY:

So I have a few novels, if you want to check them out and go to Amazon.com/author/JMcLean that’s JMcLean not Mac as is often mistaken for, and check them out and let me know what you think, and let us know in the comments if you’ve read them or if you like them etc. etc.

ETHAN:

On my side, at the moment I’ve only got the one book out, The Birth of Chaos, also available on Amazon. You can just do a search of Amazon. I don’t have the direct URL right with me now, but if you search Birth of Chaos on Amazon you should have it there on the first page – hopefully – please tell me if it’s not. (Laughs)

JEREMY:

I think it is. (Laughs) Alrighty, so, thank you for joining us here on Second Drafts Podcasts. Please be sure to subscribe see don’t miss out on everything you need to write, edit, and publish your way. And once again leave us a comment and let us know what you’d like to see from us in future podcasts and will see you next time.

ETHAN:

See you.