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3:03

Boxer, entrepreneur, boxing

3:05

gym owner, winner of The Apprentice,

3:08

Marnie Swindles. How are

3:10

you? I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having

3:12

me. Honored to be here today. Tell

3:14

me more about your boxing journey.

3:16

I mean, that's obviously a passion of yours. Why

3:19

did you get into boxing and what did it give

3:22

you?

3:22

It felt like a very

3:25

natural thing for me to want to do. Growing

3:27

up, I was always quite aggressive, bit of a tomboy,

3:30

bit fiery and never

3:32

athletic, never very interested in sports.

3:35

In fact, I was the netball team's

3:37

B team's reserve. That's

3:39

how detached I was from sports and fitness.

3:42

But something about boxing called me.

3:44

And when I saw a leaflet in school advertising

3:47

that the local gym was opening up, I walked

3:49

through the doors. I was very much given the

3:53

spiel of, you know, boxing for boys,

3:55

you know, you're going to train like us if you want to keep up, all

3:57

the rest of it. It didn't faze me.

3:59

And

4:00

since that moment, I've been in

4:02

love with it in many different capacities as

4:04

a boxer myself, as a coach, as

4:07

you said, now a gym owner. And it has

4:09

really been blood in, blood out. I think I'll be

4:11

in this sport forever.

4:12

Most people think when you get into a sport,

4:15

it's all about the physical. But I

4:17

remember when I was in school, and

4:20

just from a young age, my dad's

4:22

a big cricket fan, I'm a big cricket fan. And

4:24

I was like really into cricket, like all the equipment,

4:27

going to like training sessions, you

4:29

know, those kind of Saturday mornings,

4:31

I'd go and practice in the nets with my dad from

4:33

the age of like seven onwards. And I felt

4:36

more from the physical activity, it just

4:38

gave me some sort of routine and structure

4:40

in my life. And that carries over

4:42

to other facets of your life, you carry

4:44

over that passion drive organization

4:47

and willpower to other assets of your life.

4:49

And do you feel that boxing has given

4:51

you that structure in other aspects?

4:55

Absolutely. I mean, when you think about sports, and,

4:57

you know, probably from your perspective, as a doctor, you think

4:59

a lot from the physical perspective,

5:01

and the physicality of sport, what it does for fitness,

5:04

what it does for weight loss, muscle,

5:06

all the rest of it. But I find for

5:08

myself personally, and for most people

5:11

that I interact with in sports, the biggest

5:13

impact is on the mentality,

5:16

on the change of structure, on the change of routine,

5:18

what it does for them, the connections

5:21

it gives them. In fact, the slogan for Bronx

5:23

is beyond boxing, because I wanted it to represent

5:25

a place that whilst being within

5:28

the fitness sector in that industry, it actually

5:31

does so much more for people. And whenever

5:33

I was talking about it, I kept finding myself saying,

5:35

you know, we're doing, but we're going beyond boxing,

5:37

I want it to be beyond boxing more than boxing. And

5:40

that really is testament to exactly

5:43

what gyms are, these, these spaces

5:45

where people come together and friendships,

5:49

frankly speaking, I've been in boxing a long time,

5:51

and there's a lot of people who've been coming to the

5:53

gym for years, they haven't

5:55

got any fitter, their boxing hasn't got

5:57

any better. And they're coming for a different

5:59

reason. And I think if we can really

6:02

drill into that I spoke by on the show This is

6:04

about feelings not fitness

6:06

if we can drill into that. I think the sports industry

6:09

Opens up to a lot more people and actually then

6:11

through that the default result is

6:14

that they get fitter, you know So I think

6:16

we should stop targeting members

6:19

from a physical perspective and start targeting

6:21

people for what it can do for that

6:23

for their mental health and and everything else I

6:25

Think that's the issue with my

6:27

profession as a doctor as well We have

6:29

all these rigid metrics that we

6:32

measure people's life by you know, you'll

6:34

wait you'll be am I You

6:36

know all of these very rigid categories

6:39

that we just pop people into but

6:41

then we miss the overall holistic

6:43

view actually You're okay

6:46

You look overweight but actually you're

6:48

in the gym four times a week and you're strong

6:50

and you're flexible and you're pain-free and You

6:53

feel good mentally and physically and it's

6:55

interesting you say about you know This these

6:57

people coming to boxing gyms for years

7:00

and not getting better at boxing one of

7:02

my best friends over the last Two

7:04

years. He's really got into Brazilian

7:06

jiu-jitsu and he says himself He's

7:09

not really improved but he goes

7:11

to these Brazilian jiu-jitsu his

7:13

gyms and what's funny is that

7:15

he's he'll see I don't know someone who's like

7:17

a multi-millionaire coming in and Someone

7:21

who's a bin man, for example, right and the bin

7:23

man is like a really top-level BJJ

7:26

athlete and that multi-millionaire

7:29

I kind of has to listen and wants

7:31

to listen and take advice from this guy and it's

7:33

like you bring people from all aspects Of

7:35

life and it's just it's a level

7:37

playing field when you're in the gym and

7:39

you just interact with anyone and everything

7:42

Honestly, I love

7:44

it. I can't get enough of exactly what you're saying there.

7:46

That's Exactly what Bronx

7:49

represents. That's exactly what gyms represents You

7:51

know the dynamics in there the networking

7:54

of different people that normally

7:56

would never come into contact And

7:58

yet here they are

9:59

big boxing sports.

10:01

When you look at where women's boxing is

10:03

now, it's crazy to think

10:05

that in 2012, it wasn't

10:08

in the Olympics. And I suppose before that,

10:10

we never even thought about it. I started

10:12

boxing before that. So just before 2012,

10:14

maybe 2010, 2011. So

10:18

when I did first step in the boxing gym, it

10:20

was like a ghost had walked in there. And

10:23

it wasn't even so much I was giving the impression it was

10:25

for boys. I was told vehemently,

10:28

this is a boy's sport. And if

10:30

you are gonna even think about training with us, you

10:32

need to act like one of the boys, which

10:35

included being subjected to lots of locker

10:37

room chat and the rest of it. And

10:40

boxing just wasn't equipped for women, even down

10:42

to when I came to London, and I would

10:45

say I joined my first proper boxing club. There

10:48

were no facilities for female toilets,

10:50

female changing. It was just a circus

10:53

act. The first time I thought was in

10:55

a working man's club. And the

10:57

look on some of the guys' faces,

11:00

all these sort of, you know, pub geezers, seeing

11:02

a woman in the ring, their

11:05

face was a picture. But I think it made

11:07

a positive impression.

11:10

It wasn't a, you shouldn't be in the ring. It was

11:12

a, wow, she did good in the ring. And

11:14

that perception has slowly changed from,

11:17

she's good for a girl to that

11:18

person's a good boxer. You know?

11:20

And I think that's where women's

11:22

boxing is at now, in terms of professional boxing.

11:25

Women are having their own full

11:27

cards. And almost this word

11:30

of women's boxing, we're at a point

11:32

where I think it could be dropped. I think we could

11:34

just go for boxing. And when

11:36

we get to that point, that will be the real symbol

11:39

that we have transcended this

11:42

closed category of women's boxing to just, this

11:44

is boxing.

11:44

So, you know, significant

11:47

change in the last decade, but a

11:49

long way still to go. Yes, absolutely.

11:51

Now, obviously you've been boxing for a number of years.

11:55

How, have you had any injuries yourself?

11:58

I have.

11:59

You probably can't tell but I

12:02

can tell because it's my nose. Yeah. But

12:04

a guy dropped a very big right

12:06

hand on my nose and did fracture

12:09

it and I had a little bend, a little ball. Now

12:11

it very much bothers me. But my best

12:13

one is actually this one. I think you can see, can

12:15

you see the scar on my arm?

12:17

Yeah, yeah. That,

12:19

that I broke over a lady's

12:22

head. I was, we were sparring. God.

12:25

We were sparring. I threw a big right

12:28

hook and she just stayed very still

12:30

and her hands were, her guard was up. There

12:33

was almost like hitting a pole. So as it landed,

12:35

the arm went sideways. I didn't

12:37

realize I broke it. I thought, you know, sometimes

12:39

where you bang your elbow and you get sort

12:41

of a fuzzy feeling, that's what it felt like.

12:44

I'd never broken anything before. So it

12:46

was my first time and I came back to the corner

12:48

and I said, oh, you know, I think my, my

12:50

gloves a bit funny. So as he lifted

12:53

the glove up, I could actually

12:55

feel the bones inside scrape

12:57

past each other and move. It's still not realizing

13:00

I broke it at this point. Just felt a lot of

13:02

pain, thought it would go away. Came

13:04

back to the center of the ring to do the next

13:06

round and as the bell went, I'm sort of

13:08

one arm is just here. And despite my

13:10

best efforts to try and lift my shoulder, this

13:13

bottom half of my arm just would not lift. Good.

13:16

They're going, get your hands up, Marnie. Get your hands up. Try

13:18

it. Oh my God. And then

13:20

in true boxing gym fashion, after

13:22

that round had ended, they then took

13:25

it off, realized it was swelling immediately,

13:27

not looking too good. And they wrapped it. Makeshift

13:30

sling in boxing wraps. So we

13:33

held it up here. We then dropped everyone else

13:35

from the gym off home first and then made our way to

13:37

the hospital. So nothing urgent. Oh

13:40

my God. Pain is not

13:42

something that's quickly responded

13:43

to in a boxing gym. That almost fight

13:46

or flight fear response sometimes

13:49

where the adrenaline is high, you may not feel

13:51

the pain and the injuries at the time

13:53

because your heart rate and excitement

13:56

and stress levels are through the roof. So you're

13:58

all these feelings are attenuated. But, you

14:01

know, physical injuries are one thing

14:03

in terms of the stuff you can see broken bones

14:06

and things like that. But what about

14:08

injuries to your head? You'll get

14:10

knocks to the chin, the cheek, the temple.

14:13

Have you had those and have they had

14:15

any effects on you?

14:16

I have had flashes. So I've

14:19

never been concussed. Never got

14:21

to that point. But you've had, I've had,

14:23

and most people have had when you take a big shot,

14:25

you sort of get a flash. And for

14:28

the most smallest of split

14:30

seconds,

14:31

you

14:32

just lose where you are for a second and then

14:35

immediately come back round. I've had that, but

14:37

you know, I think that's what makes boxing so

14:39

juicy is it is, it is, as everything

14:41

you're saying there, it was exciting. You know, it's a

14:43

fight or flight or adrenaline and danger.

14:46

And it's a real test of character.

14:49

Like when those moments come and you

14:51

are here, how do you respond? And

14:53

it just says so much about who you

14:55

are. And I think that might have been, and I'm

14:58

having a revelation in this moment because

15:01

I'm realizing that might have been one of the things that drew

15:03

me to boxing is the idea of I've

15:06

always wanted to prove points to myself. If

15:08

I was scared to do something, I would actively

15:11

go out of my way to confront it to prove

15:13

that I could do it. Everybody is terrified

15:16

of going in a boxing ring, no matter who they are. It's

15:18

a scary thing. When you confront

15:20

that and you get in there and you do it, it's

15:23

so satisfying.

15:24

There's that element of danger, which attracts people.

15:27

Has that element specifically with regards to

15:29

head injuries ever made you think, hang on, I

15:31

love boxing and I will do it, but I

15:33

don't want to get punched in their face

15:35

anymore.

15:36

Yes, not so much for me,

15:38

but for people I've coached. So if there's

15:40

been people who, you know, I

15:42

did white collar promotions for a while.

15:45

And one of the things that was constantly in the

15:47

back of my mind is it's up

15:49

to me if I want to put myself in that position. But

15:52

when people are coming to me and asking my opinion

15:54

of their, you know, maybe 46, could

15:57

they have a go at boxing? They really want to do it. but

16:00

be mindful of what

16:02

situation would I be putting you in by

16:05

having a fight? Are you really fit enough to do

16:07

this? We get medical tests done, but there's

16:09

always that moral compass inside

16:11

of me that says, is this the safest

16:14

thing for this person? Should they be doing it? It's

16:16

a balance. It's a balance between the risks

16:19

people are prepared to take. I think the

16:21

risks, although looking at boxing from an outside

16:23

perspective, it looks very dangerous and it

16:25

looks very scary, but there's a real art to

16:27

it. There's a real art to taking impact in

16:30

a certain way. There's an art to holding

16:32

your head in a certain way that reduces the impact.

16:35

So from the outside looking in, it can look very dangerous.

16:39

But once you're in it, I think it

16:41

feels a lot less. It's a calculated

16:44

risk. Yeah. For me personally,

16:46

when I was boxing, I always looked at the balance

16:48

of there's many ways in which I could sustain

16:51

an injury. Yeah. They could happen to

16:53

me anyway. Boxing felt

16:55

like it did more good than it did the

16:57

risk of bad if that makes it. I think that's

16:59

an important point to make in general because

17:02

the moms do always get in the way. Yeah.

17:05

We have a lot of young people whose moms

17:07

say, it's dangerous, it's dangerous. But

17:10

when you look at the impacts of boxing

17:13

on young people in a wider sense,

17:15

the fact that it gets them out of

17:17

bad situations, the fact that it teaches them to

17:20

control their temper, it's a great

17:22

controlled outlet for aggression, which most

17:25

young people naturally have aggression

17:27

and pent up angst. When you look

17:29

at all the ways in which it builds respect,

17:32

teaches discipline, the balance

17:34

of that is that they get in the ring

17:37

and that they may or may not take

17:39

shots in a very controlled,

17:43

restricted, limited way. So when you look

17:45

at it on balance, I think boxing actually is a much

17:47

safer sport than people would first

17:49

assume. And boxing

17:51

is one of many strings

17:54

to your bow. You'll obviously

17:56

just open up a brand new community gym

17:59

and all of the opportunities. and meetings

18:01

and events you're having with your various ventures. It's

18:03

a lot. It's a lot. How do you mentally

18:06

stay resilient and on track with

18:08

so many things?

18:10

It's hard. There is a certain

18:12

life that I want for myself.

18:14

And I know that there will be no

18:17

inheritance. There will be no other possible

18:19

way that I can achieve that life, other

18:21

than do the things that I need to do now. And

18:24

if that means my life is in absolute

18:27

chaos and it is hell right now,

18:29

then so be it. If I have

18:32

to do 16-hour days, so be

18:34

it. Because I really believe that I can't

18:36

be working as hard as I am now for there to

18:38

be no gain at the end. I actually

18:41

love the Winston Churchill quote, if

18:43

you're going through hell, keep going. I

18:46

think that really symbolizes where I'm at right now.

18:48

It is a lot of pressure.

18:50

Everything in some ways. And I don't know

18:52

about you, and it may be something that you

18:54

can relate to, but the moments I have

18:56

in the morning when maybe I'm in the shower

18:59

and I know once I step out of that shower,

19:02

once that kind of heat goes away, I have

19:06

to start the day. And it's that moment

19:08

in the shower where I want it to last forever. And

19:10

I'm just there for an extra five minutes thinking, I don't

19:12

want to step out because I need to start my day. But

19:15

then eventually you do need to

19:17

start the day and you do need to face reality.

19:20

But I would 100% take having

19:23

to make those difficult decisions on my own business than

19:26

working for someone else. So prior to this,

19:28

I was working in court every day. And

19:31

that was a lot of pressure. It was a lot of pressure every

19:33

single day to appear in court, go before

19:35

a judge, make sure I knew everything, do

19:38

justice by the case. And

19:40

that was such a lot of pressure. So even

19:43

now I have this pressure, it's my

19:45

pressure. And I think it is really,

19:47

really important. I'm a huge advocate for

19:50

people finding a job

19:52

that they love or following a path

19:55

that they love because life is so

19:57

short and it's so easy to, as you

19:59

say, you wave. every day and should

20:01

we really in this short space of time we

20:03

have on earth be spending our days anxious

20:07

of what's to come like every single day.

20:10

If you face that feeling your whole life

20:12

is just one big thing

20:15

you're just scared to face you know.

20:17

It's often quoted about the island

20:19

of Okinawa where the Okinawans live

20:21

they've got a high proportion of people who

20:24

are centenarians who are living to a hundred and

20:26

beyond and obviously if

20:28

you look at these populations around the world and

20:30

you know they've been kind of dubbed the blue

20:32

zones where a lot

20:34

of the reasons they live longer is because

20:37

of dietary factors they have high proportions

20:39

of plant-based foods and fiber they're

20:41

very active and they're surrounded by

20:43

a lot of social company even to their old

20:45

age and this helps

20:48

them live longer they're not you know just lifting

20:50

weights and doing all of these things and they

20:52

have quite a lifestyle without modern day

20:55

stress as usually but in the Okinawans

20:57

they have this word

20:59

called ikigai which is kind of your reason

21:02

to live or your purpose in your life and

21:04

I found that for many years

21:07

ago like during the pandemic I sort of

21:09

felt I didn't have this purpose or ikigai and

21:12

why was I going to work in the mornings I wasn't enjoying

21:14

work that much and over the last

21:16

couple of years I've been trying to think about what is my

21:19

reason to wake up and since doing more stuff

21:21

on social media and educating I

21:23

enjoy that and even though I'm not doing that

21:25

every day I'm still doing work every day it's

21:28

sort of given me a renewed passion to know right

21:31

now anyway my purpose is

21:33

to educate have fun

21:35

you know look after myself and

21:37

do you find that you

21:40

have or have found something in your life

21:42

every day that is your drive even

21:44

if it's a shitty day it's raining outside you've got

21:47

a lot of stuff to do what is your

21:49

ikigai what's your purpose?

21:51

My purpose my ultimate purpose

21:53

is freedom is to

21:56

as I said I have this vision of a life I want

21:58

to live and because we live in the world. in this world,

22:00

that vision requires money. I

22:03

want the freedom to wake up every day and not

22:05

have choice, not have to be

22:08

somewhere. And even the step away

22:10

from working for someone in law

22:12

to working for myself whilst there is pressure,

22:15

every day is my own. And I am the

22:17

boss of my own day each day.

22:20

And I can work it out how I wanna

22:22

work it out. And the more you put in, the

22:24

more you get out when you work for yourself. So

22:27

my purpose is to do a good job of what I'm doing

22:29

now for the ultimate greater,

22:31

bigger purpose, which is to

22:33

have a life I really

22:36

dreamed of. And I think people give

22:38

up on dreams so quickly. And

22:41

I get it, life gets in the way, rent

22:43

needs to be paid, food needs to be bought, I

22:45

get it. But it's about

22:48

finding a pathway that leads you from where you

22:50

are now to what really is

22:52

that purpose. So my vision,

22:54

I'll let you in on my vision. Yeah, please do.

22:56

It is a small house somewhere,

22:59

maybe on a Greek island, no pressure. I don't

23:01

want fancy clothes, I don't want fancy cars. I want

23:04

peace, I want freedom. I want

23:06

that thing that I never

23:08

saw my parents have, which is money

23:11

issues, what are we gonna do about this? How are we paying for this?

23:14

And that absorbs your entire life.

23:16

And is something I'm saying we're on earth for maybe 80 years

23:19

and every day is consumed

23:21

by this fear and panic of each

23:23

day. I want something bigger, I want

23:25

something, something that

23:27

I can look back on and be really, really

23:29

proud of. Money is just the ticket that

23:32

makes the world go round that allows you

23:34

to trade that in for freedom, for

23:35

choice. At some point, if you're never

23:37

happy with what you

23:40

have, your plot of land, and

23:42

enjoy that, and you're always looking forward

23:44

to the next goal, rather than enjoying

23:47

that moment you've worked so hard for, there

23:49

will never be any end to your

23:51

hunger for more and more and more.

23:54

That's pretty depressing if you think about it.

23:56

That's something that I've had conversations about

23:58

and that's a genuine fifth. me that

24:00

I'll never reach a point of satisfaction

24:02

that I'll be happy. I can't tell you

24:04

how much I wanted this gym. I

24:07

was honestly being tears every day that

24:09

why isn't the least certain yet? Why why haven't the

24:11

building worked? Why why is this not happening?

24:13

And now we're here. And I

24:16

actually said when it all happened, I said, it

24:18

feels a bit like an anti-climax. Like this is everything

24:20

I wanted. And I've got it. And now I'm a bit like,

24:23

well, this is good. But what's next? Yeah. And that's

24:25

where that toxicity comes in. Like you said,

24:27

it's just more, more.

24:29

It's not greed. It's

24:32

a never ending pit

24:35

of hunger. And

24:37

sometimes for me, it's more the challenge. It's more

24:40

doing the job and saying, I did that. It's the chase.

24:42

Yeah, I did that. But it is crazy because

24:45

when I think about my life, you know, I come from

24:47

I come from a caravan with my

24:49

mum and my dad and my dog. Yeah, we lived

24:51

in a very simple life. You know, we'd

24:54

eat outside. I'd go fishing with

24:56

my dad. We do car boots markets

24:58

on a Sunday. That was the income. It

25:01

was very simple. And that when I think

25:03

back to those moments, they're some of the happiest in my

25:05

life. Yeah. And we had nothing really

25:07

had nothing. We had each other.

25:10

It was simple, straightforward, ultimately

25:12

doing all this to get back to that feeling. And

25:15

we also alluded to the fact that money

25:17

does make the world go around. So whilst

25:19

we might, you know, idealize

25:22

and put that lifestyle,

25:25

you know, on a pedestal with nostalgia,

25:27

the reality is, I mean, I came to the UK

25:30

when I was five years old with my parents, you

25:32

know, I can look back as well, similarly at my

25:34

time, and I'm thinking I was so great. But actually, if

25:37

we really look at our times in our

25:39

younger selves, there were probably

25:41

problems then that maybe we didn't

25:44

have enough money to do X, Y and Z. And

25:46

maybe a bit more would have gone on a certain

25:48

way. I mean, I don't know how you felt.

25:50

I mean, your upbringing, do you think a

25:52

lot of that and the resilience you had to

25:54

have, presumably at that stage, led

25:57

to your ambitious

26:00

personality? Well I think that's the

26:02

golden formula. Again it's choice.

26:05

It's having the money to have that

26:07

life but then if you want to go

26:09

on a yacht for the day you've got the money to do that. It's

26:12

the choice and like you said

26:14

I romanticized the moments back then

26:16

and it's easy to remember those

26:18

like colorful moments where we were all together

26:21

but easily forget the letters and

26:24

the bills and my mum's panicked straight

26:26

after my dad died. My mum had

26:28

no idea what she was going to do next and that's

26:31

where money would have saved the day because everyone

26:33

says money doesn't buy happiness but

26:35

I really do believe that that is

26:37

a that it does. It

26:39

does because it buys freedom and it buys choice. In

26:42

terms of whether that upbringing

26:44

made me ambitious absolutely

26:47

absolutely. I think most successful

26:50

people when you you look at the trajectory

26:52

of their lives they're running away from

26:54

something. They're running away from an

26:56

example they don't want. My

26:58

mum has always been so hard on

27:01

me getting an education so hard on me being

27:03

better than she was. My mum was a cleaner

27:06

for most of my growing up. Doing a lady

27:08

we did car boots markets as I said on Sundays

27:10

and that was a life and she never

27:13

wanted that for me. I distinctly remember a conversation

27:16

between her and my granddad in front of me where

27:18

my granddad said let her be a cleaner she's all right she

27:21

can be like you and my mum very

27:23

respectful of her own dad snapped

27:25

at him so don't speak like that in front of her.

27:28

Don't let her know that that's where

27:30

the bar is. It's limitless and

27:33

my mum's belief

27:35

that I really really could be anything

27:38

and I mean anything I want to be. If I

27:40

want to be Prime Minister I genuinely

27:42

believe I could be it and that comes from

27:44

her saying that there isn't a limit. This life

27:46

that we're living you know it's a glass ceiling break

27:49

through it go for it.

27:50

Well you know just speaking to now it's

27:52

I've just finished night shifts yesterday morning

27:55

and I just felt very low but I feel

27:57

like more uplifted off this conversation to go and do. something

28:00

but you've got a question for me.

28:02

I wanted to ask you because I never get the

28:04

opportunity to talk to

28:06

a doctor from a biological perspective,

28:09

what do you think of boxing as

28:11

a sport? You've taken into account

28:13

the what it does for taking people

28:16

out of bad situations, what it does for getting people

28:18

on track. Do you think it's a

28:20

good balance with the risk

28:23

of concussion, the risk of head trauma and how

28:25

serious do you think that really

28:27

is? Yeah, no it's a good question and

28:29

I think we have to face the reality of

28:32

all of these contact sports whether it's in the NFL,

28:35

rugby, footballers, heading the ball, boxing,

28:38

fighting sports, combat sports, we're

28:41

never going to get rid of them you know and we're

28:43

never going to restrict them in such

28:45

a way that it limits the impact of head

28:47

injury, certainly in adults. I

28:50

think it's up to every adult to make their

28:52

own informed choice and as we mentioned

28:54

before it's all about risk. If there's an 80-year-old

28:56

getting into boxing who's maybe at higher

28:58

risk of falls, already

29:01

has kind of issues with you know brain

29:03

issues, maybe it's not

29:05

suitable for them to get into contact and

29:08

I do think the benefit

29:10

of sport and training anyway rather

29:13

than just the fighting, even training like when

29:15

I did you know weekly boxing sessions

29:17

and just training the conditioning, it got me fitter,

29:20

I felt better, I had a routine,

29:22

I met people, I was more sociable. So

29:25

arguably all of those things lead

29:27

to someone's better quality of

29:29

life, improving their own physical and mental health

29:32

and we know that has you know priceless

29:34

benefits to someone but I feel

29:37

maybe the caveat

29:39

and nuance with all these things would

29:42

be in children. Children, if you

29:44

want to be a professional boxer chances

29:46

are you are starting at the age of four or five

29:48

or something like that, very young you know you're maybe your

29:51

family's super into boxing and you're starting that young age.

29:55

It's probably at that age where the brain is growing,

29:57

it's pliable, the skull is softer

30:01

and it's a developing brain is

30:03

maybe where the greatest risk of injury is.

30:05

Imagine if like a seven-year-old is in,

30:07

you know, another seven-year-old

30:10

punching a seven-year-old may not

30:12

be the greatest amount of force in the

30:14

world as opposed to an adult punching another

30:16

adult. But I guess, you know, that chronic

30:18

lifelong trauma, and there is evidence to suggest

30:21

that just one or two

30:24

concussion events in someone's

30:26

career is enough to greatly

30:28

increase their risk profile for neurodegeneration

30:31

and increase the risk of Alzheimer's,

30:33

dementia, Parkinson's, all these things.

30:35

Well, Corinne, you've just successfully put everyone off boxing

30:37

forever. No, one

30:40

thing I would want to say on that though, with

30:42

all of those risks, as you said, there

30:44

can be risks, and I think it would be absolutely

30:47

deluded of me to say that going into a boxing

30:50

ring and entering

30:52

a fight or a sparring situation doesn't

30:54

come with risks. Innately, it

30:56

does. You're taking impact.

30:58

But I wouldn't, and I really

31:00

want to go far to dispel the myth that that is

31:03

the only thing that happens in boxing gyms. Yeah,

31:05

of course. Because I think, and we

31:07

face it a lot, even where I've been giving out leaflets

31:09

and trying to tell people, it's a barbaric

31:11

sport, people get injured. Before

31:14

you even, certainly in Bronx,

31:16

certainly in my gym, before you even think

31:19

about contact, we have so

31:21

many options of just people recreationally

31:24

hitting

31:24

bad,

31:25

taking part in the sport. I'm

31:28

always careful with these conversations that

31:30

people don't fall into this idea

31:32

that that's all boxing is,

31:34

it's just a fight. There's so much

31:37

discipline, and so much art, so much respect. So

31:39

anyone who's listening, you can come to Bronx,

31:41

not have any contact. No, absolutely.

31:43

Now, I think that's the thing. You're caging

31:45

from everyone, from the people who

31:47

want to become professionals and go into the contact

31:50

sport to the casual weekenders

31:52

who just want to get fit.

31:53

We have people in their 70s,

31:55

and I say people because I don't just mean one member. I

31:57

think it's about three people we have who

31:59

are... 70 they come every week

32:02

they hit the bags and just going back to that

32:04

idea of lifestyle and motivation

32:07

what it's doing for them and their body their

32:09

mindset their sense of community

32:11

I know there's a lot of isolation in all the people it's

32:14

amazing and I think boxing gyms

32:16

as much as risk needs to be acknowledged

32:18

I think they should be heralded as places

32:21

for people coming together and

32:23

making a big a big impact there

32:25

you go.

32:25

So Marnie

32:27

thank you so much for joining me talking

32:30

openly about boxing struggles

32:32

that you face in balancing so many things

32:34

and your continued success as well and I

32:37

really hope you enjoy a very well-deserved

32:39

break. I need it thank you for having

32:41

me. Hello

32:49

listeners of The Referral it's me Dr.

32:52

Curran are you tired of scaring the internet

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33:45

and start getting answers today I'm

33:48

Chris McKendree host of the US Open

33:50

for this year we celebrate 50 years of equal

33:52

pay and a new podcast equal play

33:54

presented by JP Morgan I'll be revisiting

33:56

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33:57

moment when women like Chris

33:59

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34:02

took a stand. They made tough choices,

34:04

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doing so, they carved a path for future generations.

34:09

Listen to Equal Play, 50 years of equal

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34:22

Now on to If

34:24

It Ducks Like A Quack, the bit where I debunk

34:27

all those medical myths and obviously today

34:29

I want to delve more into the myths around

34:31

boxing and physical contact

34:34

sports. You need to lose consciousness

34:36

to have a concussion. Now this is probably one of

34:38

the most pervasive myths in any contact

34:40

sport, whether it's the NFL, rugby,

34:43

boxing. You don't actually need to black

34:45

out and lose consciousness or faint to

34:47

be diagnosed with a concussion. And that's

34:49

why chronic brain injury can go

34:52

undiagnosed for a number of years. Someone doesn't

34:54

lose consciousness but still sustains a pretty

34:57

severe head injury, maybe doesn't even

34:59

have any significant neurological changes

35:02

and they keep going back into the sport, keep

35:04

sustaining these chronic low-grade injuries

35:06

and who knows, 10, 20, 30 years down

35:09

the line, they may suffer with

35:11

significant neurodegeneration. Boxing

35:13

is violent and aggressive. I think

35:15

when most people think about boxing, they think,

35:17

you know, too pugilist in the ring

35:20

trying to knock each other's head off. But the thing is,

35:22

boxing is a sport. You can have a non-contact

35:25

version where you just train like

35:27

a boxer. You punch boxing bags and

35:30

you know, you do the cardiovascular conditioning

35:32

and training to do with boxing

35:34

without actually getting in the ring and fighting

35:37

someone. Although it is a fighting sport,

35:40

you don't have to do the fighting bit. I remember

35:42

when I was younger and at school, I wanted

35:44

to learn some boxing and my mum didn't

35:46

want me to spar or actually fight anyone

35:48

and neither did I. But I did the training

35:51

for the boxing which can be, well,

35:53

it is as good as boxing without,

35:56

you know, getting your head punched because as we said

35:58

before, getting head in. injuries, even

36:01

one big head injury in your lifetime

36:03

can affect your brain long term. And

36:09

just before we go, we have a question on CrowdScience

36:11

and this week we've got a voice note. Let's have

36:14

a listen.

36:14

Hi, my name's Laura. So my question

36:16

for you is

36:18

basically for the last 20 years of my life,

36:20

I've suffered really horrifically with

36:22

IBS

36:23

D. Sometimes it's so bad that

36:26

I can eat something and instantly feel like I need

36:28

to rush to the toilet otherwise I'm sitting

36:30

there like crap myself. Why is that? Like

36:32

surely it's not gone through my system enough

36:35

to even make me need

36:37

to go to the toilet. So yeah, like why

36:39

does that happen to me all the time? Thank

36:42

you. I look forward to your answer. Thank

36:44

you. So yeah, thank you very much for that question. And

36:46

I think it's a tricky one. So as we know, Laura

36:49

has suggested she's got IBS D. Now there

36:51

are lots of different subtypes with IBS,

36:53

IBS C, IBS D, etc. And

36:55

they're all slightly different in how they vary

36:58

in terms of their symptoms. But overall

37:00

IBS, it's classically characterized

37:03

as someone who has alternating constipation

37:05

or diarrhea. They may have abdominal pain

37:07

and bloating and a lot of erratic gastrointestinal

37:10

symptoms. Now, when someone eats something

37:13

and immediately has to go to the toilet, that could

37:15

signify a number of things. It could be

37:18

normal if there's a delay between eating

37:20

and then needing a bowel motion. And that's

37:22

partly due to the gastrocolic reflex.

37:25

You eat something, you stretch the walls of your

37:27

stomach, that produces a cascade

37:29

of events where hormones are released, which

37:31

then contracts your gut and you have a bowel motion.

37:34

And part of having a healthy bowel routine

37:36

in the morning is triggering the gastrocolic

37:39

reflex by maybe having coffee in the

37:41

morning or something to eat in the morning. But

37:43

if someone has a bowel motion, essentially

37:45

almost immediately within a few minutes after

37:48

eating, that's not always a normal thing. It's

37:50

not a physiological response. And

37:52

again, could be a number of things. There may be some sort

37:54

of intolerance to a food. What

37:57

you're eating may trigger you, whether it's a lactose

37:59

intolerant. and you immediately have

38:02

low-grade inflammation of your intestines

38:04

and you need to go to the toilet. So potentially

38:06

something like that. And if you have IBS,

38:08

irritable bowel syndrome, your

38:11

gut may be more sensitive to certain foods,

38:13

whether that's spicy food or foods with

38:15

high fiber content. So there's

38:18

a number of factors which could explain your condition

38:20

here. And with IBS specifically,

38:23

I would definitely recommend seeing

38:25

a gastroenterologist because IBS,

38:29

it's a very common condition and

38:31

it needs a specialist to look into your

38:33

symptoms and to see if there's anything

38:35

that can be given, either medication or

38:38

lifestyle changes that can help to improve your

38:40

symptoms. It may simply be a case of

38:43

dietary adjustments and changing what

38:45

you eat and when and how big

38:47

a meal you have, which could change

38:49

your symptoms. So Laura, thank you very much. That was a

38:51

great question. And as I said, so many people have

38:54

irritable bowel syndrome, so hopefully that helps somewhat.

38:56

And just before we go, I want to tease

38:58

this question from Sarah in our CrowdScience

39:01

Extra episode. She's asking, is it possible

39:04

to expedite your position

39:06

and boost your position on a waiting

39:09

list to see a doctor if you've got chronic

39:11

conditions like endometriosis or adenomyosis?

39:14

Is there a secret hack where you can climb

39:16

up that waiting list ladder? Download CrowdScience

39:19

Extra to find out. And if you're lurking there quietly,

39:21

listening to all of these questions, you can

39:23

get in touch as well. It's not too late. Just

39:26

get in touch via thereferralpod.com

39:28

with your own question. Thanks for listening

39:30

to this episode of The Referral. Yes,

39:32

I am a real doctor, but it's important to know that if

39:35

you need specific medical advice, you need

39:37

to contact your own medical professional or

39:39

doctor. And please remember, nothing

39:41

on this show is intended to provide or replace

39:44

specific medical advice that you'd otherwise receive

39:46

from your own healthcare professional. This

39:49

has been a Sony Music production. Production

39:51

management Mr. Videos by

39:53

Ryan O'Meara. Cameras, James

39:55

Lloyd. Studio engineer, Ed Gill.

39:58

Music by Josh Carter. Grace Lee. Lakewood

40:00

and Hannert's Albert were the producers and Gano

40:02

Marshall and Chris Skinner are the executive producers.