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michael tranmer (00:11.318)Excellent. I like your shirt, by the way. Thank you. I got it.michael tranmer (00:16.51)Shopping at two places downtown and this was one of them. Yeah. Actually, I got this at a place in Gastown. Very cool. It's they encouraged me into this corner. Otherwise, I would not have gone there. That sounds pretty bad. Well, no. I'm kidding. I don't know. I need fashion help, people. No, it's OK. We need all the thank you. Yeah. It's a little bit of excitement. Yes. Right? Yes. We all need that.See you, Sunrise Person. Hi. Nice to be here. Great to have you. Thank you for coming. Thanks for taking the time. Best selling author, North and Normal, nearly normal, fiction writer, clay artist. But now, like, top of mind. Well, maybe not every day for you, but for most of us, or perhaps top of mind lately. Like, and I had a conversation with someone last night about...We all kind of want to do what you've done and are doing, right? And I saw, no, it's real, right? And I saw on your Instagram on the highlight, on one of the highlights, it is called like living the dream or the dream because you've done it, right? You've turned the book into a movie, which for writers and creatives and aspiring folks like that, like it's kind of like the Holy Grail. Well...Ah, yes, I had very little to do with it, though. I mean, yes, I wrote the book. I think a little credit. I live the life.michael tranmer (01:52.134)actually books, because it's like based on both of them. But I think that, you know, yes, it's been amazing and flattering and validating and all of those things that you would expect when someone decides to, you know, pick up your life story and turn it into a film. And it could have gone very badly, of course. I didn't have any creative control and.I was really just kind of putting my trust into this small group of people, but I just think they did such an amazing job. And they told the story that was, you know, like taking two big fat books and condensing it down into a 90 minute movie. Like what parts of the story are you going to tell? You know, it's a big, it's, that's a big decision for them. And I think they really decided it was the mother daughter relationship, which is the core of my story. So yeah.I think they did a really great job at, you know, complexly layering that. Yeah, and let's, so for those who, the three people that aren't aware of your story and the background, I'm glad you, it did narrow down to the mother-daughter relationship, which was kind of more evident in the film than in the books, I felt. But the story is, your story is, that you essentially grew up in the wilderness out of the direction of your grandfather.He was the major influence. He thought society was completely backwards, fear-based. And so the route was you spent your first eight or 10 years living in the Alberta and BC wilderness with your grandparents, your single mother, and this was how you grew up. And eventually you were nudity.drugs, alcohol, all the things. And this is how you were formed from the years of zero to eight. But eventually you're like, I want to live like everyone else. And so by the age of 13, you got into modeling and set out on your own. And that was your way to escape. Yes. That was my normal. Yeah. And but through that, like you said, there's so much that the film could have gone on to. Yes.michael tranmer (04:11.906)But the mother-daughter relationship, which got emphasized in the film, was sad. It was. I mean, and it was a sad story between my mom and I. I mean, I had the blessing of a really independent-minded family who refused to live by other people's rules, and they decided to just create this...existence that was like teepees and hunting and you know no electricity, no rules, no nothing. And so that in a way created sort of a blank slate for me I think to be whoever I wanted to be. But that's hard for kids because kids need guidance and they need stability and they need boundaries and my mom didn't really create any of those things for me. She was only 16 when she had me. She was a single mom.Um, in a lot of ways, I know she was doing the best she could because she loved me like crazy. That's for sure. But, um, I was just dragged to kind of, you know, I guess dragged along on a really crazy ride with her and whatever boyfriend she happened to have at the time. Um, and my grandparents were kind of like this unstable stability that would kind of float in and out of my life.until my mom and I moved to the city when I was almost 10. And then I was like, I can't do this anymore. Like my family's too crazy and my mom is too unstable. And so I started to sort of formulate this like, well, what can I do to get out? Well, we didn't have any money, didn't have much support, but I was tall and thin and people told me I could be a model. So I just.of put that in my head and I was like, that's going to be my escape. So when I was 13, I just went off. And I mean, by the time I was 14, I was in New York by myself. Yeah. So, I was in Paris by myself. So yeah, it was like, but that wasn't crazy, believe it or not, because I had like, taken care of myself and my mom for so long in a lot of ways, because I was like the responsible.michael tranmer (06:23.722)person. Well, when you but like when I think of my childhood, when I was 13 or 14, like, yeah, I was doing this and I was doing that. I was yeah, I was totally headed together or whatever. But and I don't have kids, but you have kids. And when you look at those ages right now, and do you match what you were doing at that age? And you're like, wow, interesting. It's very interesting. Like there is no reflection on your own experiences in your past, like having your own kids and watching.the phases that they and the personality that they have and the things that they need to deal with at that age compared to what you needed to deal with. And yeah, I can safely say that none of my kids at 14 would have been ready to live in New York on their own and they shouldn't be, you know, I mean, that's crazy. But yeah, I've been really lucky to be able to raise my kids in a way that feels a lot healthier to me than the way that.and I was raised and I'm sure I'm messing them up in other ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, you got them. It's just part of it, right? Yeah, for sure. So as the story continues, your modeling career was 20 years or so, correct? Yeah, well, let's see. Yeah, I started at 13 and I did it full-time until I was about 30. And then I continued to do it part-time until I was like 40. So yeah, so pretty long. But it was...it was that kind of headstrong intention in the beginning to have that and use that as your escape. But then once, you know, in reading the books, especially the second one, Nearly Normal, you get more of the story of what that was like. And it had its own challenges in that world, living alone in that industry, and still not having whatever the support, the parental support.Totally, yes. It was extremely challenging. I mean, I felt very, very alone a lot of the time. But, you know, it's funny because like, of course modeling has this reputation of like, you know, it's the kind of industry that, you know, it's gonna, you're gonna head down a bad way because you like, there's so much drugs and you know, you're asked to compromise your values a lot.michael tranmer (08:51.394)For me, I had a very different experience. I was just so not interested in any of that stuff, I guess, because I was raised with lots of nudity, lots of drugs, lots of partying, that I just wasn't interested. And so I was able to really hold my, keep my head above water that way. And the best thing about modeling for me was, I grew up having very few friends. It was either.in the wilderness or I was the new girl at school who was like the freak from the wilderness who smelled like pot and wore horrible clothes. And so, yeah, making friends was a real challenge for me. And when I got into modeling, suddenly I had this really great community of other girls, women like me who often had not grown up like me, but had...different challenges and we all really bonded together and it was for the first time like my in my twenties, I had this really great family of friends. Cool. That was awesome. And does that does that kind of override or put to rest the shit like the challenges that you had as a as a child not having friends and probably always feeling like you didn't fit in or did you have to kind of return to those insecurities or challenges later on?Um, those insecurities never go away. Like I'm still the girl who walked off, walk into a party and I'll like, you know, go and sit in a corner and I'm surprised if anyone wants to talk to me, you know, like that just will never go away. I don't think, um, I can like, you know, we all have the mask, right? That we can put on when we need to. And, um, so, so yeah, on the one hand, yeah, I feel confident cause I know I can go out there and make friends and like, you know,you know, have a conversation and say the right things. But I'm still that kid from the wilderness, who everyone thinks is weird. But do you do you do you kind of own that in a sense? Yeah, right. And it kind of makes you interesting and have interesting things to think about and say in different perspectives. Right? Yeah, I mean, I'm always very open about my own securities. Yeah. So I think maybe thatmichael tranmer (11:17.246)maybe people like that. I don't know. I definitely don't pretend. But things are all crazy. So do you think like reflecting on your grandfather specifically these days and like his intentions and then kind of living out his dream, living out away from it all in the wilderness, away from all the crazy, do you ever have these moments throughout the day or the week or the month is you know thinking about what's going on in your world, your kid's world or the world atman, pop a dick. He's so right. Right? Like, it's, it's crazy out there. And we're all wrapped up in all these wild things. And there's all this horrible stuff going on in the world. Do you ever, like, I don't, I think I know the answer. You don't want to pick up and move out again to the teepee. But do you ever give them perhaps a little bit more credit now to for having that? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yes. And I admire him.I think that a lot of his values and his vision was based in something really, something that I wish more people would aspire to, I guess you could say. The desire to live a life that's like, it sounds kind of crazy, but more wholesome and more pure and more, not having to be inundated with all the craziness that...we have to deal with and the regulations and, you know, pollution and chemicals and noise and, and I mean, oh my God, and that was the seventies, right? Like look at it now. And the world is like, I spend like way too much time just, I think we all do at this age, like we worry about the state of the world and it's just so overwhelming. And especially when Iyou know, have with my kids, I'm just like, Oh my God, how are they going to manage it? And how is it? How is all of this affecting them? And yeah, there's definitely a huge part of me that would love to just scoop them up and hide them away somewhere and have them not have to deal with it. Because why should they have to deal with all this crap? You know, I mean, yeah, sure, we've we're all contributing. I get that we're all contributing to the mess. But.michael tranmer (13:36.83)I just, I think that like we need a radical change, obviously. And maybe that could be part of the radical change. I don't know, but I can't do it. You know, I'm not doing it. But if again, like, if, so how would you summarize your grandfather's message though?Well, good question. And what you, I mean, what you, I watched your TEDx again recently. And what, what you mentioned, he said in that one quite, quite clearly and specifically was that, you know, his, his vision was, uh, don't go to fear, go to life. Yeah. And that's, you know, at the highest, the highest level that can sort a lot of things out because all the crap going on in the world these days is a thousand percent fear based. Yeah. So if you're living out.either physically or metaphorically in the woods with your tribe and your clan. And you're all not scared of each other and operating kind of from the same mindset. It's a different world. Totally, totally. And I think that what you just said right there really kind of summed it up. So thanks. Yeah. I mean, he was all about, I mean, he took it to the extreme, you know, cause he was all about like love versus fear. And for him, like.even doing things like going into the bathroom and shutting the door behind you, that was living in fear, because you shouldn't be afraid of your body or shame or people seeing it or whatever. But I think that at the core, he definitely had the right idea. And I for sure have gone through my life trying to continue to live that. It was shown to me so many times when I was young that-you know, I have gone after a lot of things and refused to give up on things that maybe other people would have because I've seen that determination. And it's true, like actually, just recently I was trying to make a really big life decision. And I was remembering like, okay, like, weigh the pros and cons, yes, but where's the fear? Which side is the fear on? And as soon as I figured out...michael tranmer (15:48.41)which side it was on, the answer became really clear. Oh, interesting. So if you're choosing between two things and one was fear based. Fear of what might happen if I do this or don't do this. Yeah. Right? And that's what my grandfather always used to say too. He would always say, don't waste any energy thinking about the what might happen.A lot of people would disagree with that. So what did you do in this instance? You thought about the bad things that could happen, but went that way anyways? Yes, exactly. Because of the good things that could happen. That's right. What if the bad things still happen? So be it. They're not actually that bad. Then they're not, they're actually not that bad. Yeah, you've probably been through worse. Yeah.So in a major life decision making process, it's sit down and think about where the fear is. I kept thinking about, okay, the fear for me was lying in like, you know, the position that I might be putting other people in. And it was like, well, no, because actually, you know, if I really think about it, I'm actually putting them in a position that will be better for them.But, you know, sometimes you just have to get through the short time, short term, hard to get to the longterm good. Right. Yeah. So, and then continue on your story. Cause that theme comes up again, like sort of towards the end of your modeling career, you moved back to Vancouver and you were in your second marriage. Right. But I think it was, you know, and there was a failed business. The marriage wasn't.doing well. Yeah. But it was it was and there's kind of a there's a lot of people in this situation, a lot of women, I guess, in this situation, where it's they're kind of stuck in a relationship, be it financially or whatever it is. So it's crappy relationship. Business isn't working. Life isn't great. But even in that instance, for you, you chose to get out of that andmichael tranmer (17:54.83)not live that way any longer. So without money or a job or whatever, you're like, I'm not staying here. I have to change this and go in a different direction. So that was that a perfect example of just facing fear right in the eye? And that was the hardest thing I've ever done for sure in my entire life was that, you know, that event and everything that had led up to it. And then, you know, you think, okay, now I've made the decision.And also I had a young child, so it was like no support. Well, very little, I had some friends and I had a little bit of support from my dad, but my mom had just passed away. I had zero money, like not even a car, a young kid and my business had just like completely blown up.So yeah, I decided to leave anyway, because it was, it was, it was not working and I could really see that yeah, short term, hard, long term, way better and short term hard. Well, it got a lot worse before it got better. I'll tell you, but now that, you know, I'm on the other side, obviously it was, it was the right thing to do. Butit took everything I had and I don't know if I could go through anything like that again. It was so scary. But you must hear similar stories of particularly women and I've heard of stories where they need to plan for like a year to get out of a relationship and like you know systematically make a plan of what to do and then others have to stay in crappy relationships because it's yeah but all of that is so unfortunate.Yes, it really is. And you know, and I see it, like, with women, especially who have, you know, raised families that, like really putting your career aside and focusing on that. It's like, yeah, sure, it's supposed to, there's supposed to be some sort of equality. And when you split up, if that's the situation that, you know, you decided to go with between you and your husband, they're the breadwinner, you're not.michael tranmer (20:15.202)But the reality of it plays out differently. And it's, yeah, I think a lot of women feel very trapped and I can totally understand why. It's very hard. So what, at that time in particular, for the short-term pain, what was the long-term vision or the long-term plan? What was...Was that when writing started to bubble to the surface? Like, I need to, like, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna start. So what a great thing to do when you need money, right? Start writing. Oh my God, so true. Was that like the thing pulling you forward or the vision? You're like, I'm gonna make sense of this last 30, whatever years. And actually, so I had started actually writing my first book before I left the marriage and before I.you know, went through all of that. And I think that writing my story was the thing that probably gave me the strength to go through it because for one thing, I was, you know, taking some time to examine my past and see the many, many mistakes that I had made to get to that.point where, you know, here I was in my mid thirties and everything was falling apart. And a lot of it had been because of things that I'd done wrong, you know. And so I really had to figure out how to change that. And so understanding my past was a really, really big piece to getting there. Also, you know, I had this like naive kind of hope that like, oh, yeah, I'm going to write the book.I'm going to get a big advance and that is what's going to save me from having zero money. Other people have also had this thought, oh my gosh, I thought I was the only one. Right, yeah, you hear the success story, right? You're like, oh, that's going to be me. Well, I'm hearing it right now, but continue. It's interesting how you get there, either way. Yes, for sure. Luckily, I did get there eventually.michael tranmer (22:27.894)my book was published and that was amazing, but it took years. Six years. I think, I believe it was, yeah, six years from, so it was about five years after that whole time. So, so yeah, it was not on the timeline that I would have chosen and, but.you know, and I rewrote that stupid book. I don't know how many like front to back we're talking like complete rewrites. I don't know, at least 10. You know, yeah, probably more. How did you stick with it for five years? Like, why didn't you just self publish after year two or three or four or, or give up or like, not aim for a major publisher? Why didn't you just take the easy route? Especially since I keptthese letters back from literary agents that were just like, ah, yeah, no. But just for context, North and Normal has over 30,000 reviews on Goodreads. Oh, cool. In case you didn't know. I didn't know that. So those are just the people clicking the stars and writing reviews and stuff. So it's been read by hundreds of thousands of people. Yeah, no, I know. And it's been amazing. And I'm...I'm very proud of that. But you must have known it was good. So here's what I knew. I knew a couple things. I knew I had a story to tell, a story that I had never heard anyone else tell. And that was a big reason I decided to do it, because I was like, I want to know if there's other people like me out there. There's got to be. Maybe if I can find other people who've been through something similar, I won't feel like such a freak. Mm-hmm.So there was that. There was also the fact that I just loved writing. I really loved it. I was horrible at it when I first started. No, you have no idea. I was so worse. I so don't believe it. Oh, no, trust me. You can ask some of the people who read my early drafts. I was terrible. But I loved writing. I'd always loved writing. And I'd always had it in my head that someday I'm going to stop modeling and I'm going to be a writer. So I've been writing for a long time.michael tranmer (24:45.99)I had this like really sort of weird belief in myself about, you know, my writing and about my story. And I just decided, like I really decided that I was just going to do it until it got done. And I was never going to self-publish and I was never going to go with a small publisher and it was going to either get published by a major publisher or I was just, it was just not going to happen. But that part wasn't an option.because I knew I was going to stick with it until it happened. even if it was, you know, in my eighties. So it was going to get published by a major publisher. So I just decided, what do you, what, what do you, and what did you, or at least in the beginning love about writing? I think that like, I mean, I, I love words. You know, I love, um,forming pretty sentences. I know. Isn't that fun? I know. It's just like you're reading... I'm reading Frankenstein right now by Mary Shelley. You ever read that? No, I haven't. I've never read that, but like, wow. Yeah. There's you read like some sentences or some paragraphs and you're just like, you stop. I'm like, my heart stops and my breathing stops. And I'm just reading it and you get to the end of the sentence and the end of the paragraph and like, whoa, right? How did you do that? Yeah. It's like the perfect...and dance of all these perfect words put together. And then it keeps going a little bit further and then period. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. So it's an art to find that it's there's that. I mean, I love that. And I also something I really enjoyed about writing my story when I finally got to the point where it was like my 10th draft or whatever. And, and I was actually like, you know, a decent writer by that time is like,it was so much fun to find the humor in my story because my story was like kind of a downer, you know? And, but I started thinking like, as I wrote, like I'm totally not a funny person. Like I'm just, you know, how some people are funny and I'm just not. But I found that like when I could write, when I wrote, I could find and express a sense of humor that I wasn't able to verbally. So that was like really fun.michael tranmer (27:04.486)Yeah. Because I could just see the crazy in the situation and be like, I'm just going to make this funny. But yeah, it's a subtle crazy because you know it's crazy and you're kind of reflecting on it, but you're kind of you're kind of OK with it. Yes, for sure. I mean, yeah, I was, you know, by the time I wrote my story, I was like definitely healed, you know, by the time you got to draft. Yeah, by the time I got to draft and I was definitely.healed, which isn't to say that like I, you know, not still affected by like what happened. And also it had put me in, you know, I had made a lot of, like I said, bad life decisions based on, you know, things that had happened to me in the past. But I, when I thought of those things that had happened, it didn't make me feel emotional. Nice. Yeah. It's like that happened because I was at that point in life. I did that.Next time I probably wouldn't do that. So, very good. Yeah, exactly. I was at the Writers Fest last week on Granville Island. Lauren Groff, you ever read her? She's written Matrix and I'm like her biggest fan. Okay, okay. Well, I'm your biggest fan and then she's like my number two. Fates and Furies and she lives in Florida. Okay, I haven't read. Just, wow.She just writes. This is what she does, full time. She reads 300 books a year. What? She must read so fast. Some are plays, some are short stories or listen to some on audiobook, like Two Times Speed. But yeah, she's like, well, if you listen to a play or a short story, you can do 10 or 15 in a day or something like that. Wow. But it was, yeah, I had seen her two years ago. And so she was back.back last Friday, so I'm like, I must just be in your presence because she is just a phenomenal writer. Some people have compared her to like the modern day Shakespeare. Oh, wow. She's just so in depth with her words, but it was, it was most interesting for me to hear about her like writing process. And so she writes everything by hand. Wow. Yeah. Until the very last draft. So she writes on.michael tranmer (29:23.702)the long shades full scab. Yeah. But so she'll do the first draft, write it all out, crumple it up, throw it out, gone. Whoa. I know. That's a commitment. And then, you know, whatever's left over for the second draft will still be in there and then she'll just keep working it and working it and working it. Wow.But she also, I know, right? So it's kind of interesting to hear the dedication. The other thing which, and I told my sisters and my mom this and they had some opinions and thoughts, but I thought it was pretty cool. Maybe it's cause I don't have kids, but her husband sort of made her move to Florida. I think they were originally in New England and she hates Florida, right? I like visiting Florida, but I don't wanna live in Florida. I know, right? But so her deal was, and this was...12 years ago or whatever it was. You know, she's been writing the whole time. But her deal was, all right, here's the deal. Like she doesn't see any humans until the evening. Oh. She gets up at five and like her husband does the, that makes the lunches and gets the kids out the door and stuff and it's her working on her writing until the evening. So she'll write for four hours or she'll go read these books or go for walks and stuff.and nobody's in her head or anything. Well, that is quite the luxury. Truth, right, yeah, right? I have to say, I mean, good for her. They obviously found something that works for them. That's amazing. I wrote both of these two books with toddlers literally hanging off me. I know, so it's interesting, that is a privilege and a luxury, but in reality, you kinda do what you gotta do if you wanna get your piece out there. You do, you do, yeah.And I was just like, for me, I just, I had to be so driven because, you know, we, we were raising three kids and, um, you know, my family wasn't around and, um, you know, we really didn't have any help. I mean, my husband's great. He's super hands on. He's a very involved father, but you know, he had his job. Also an engineer, right? Yeah. That's right. Good man. Yeah. Totally. Um,michael tranmer (31:44.542)Yeah, so he was great and super supportive and gave me time whenever he could, but the childcare fell to me most of it, for sure. And so I just, I remember having one baby here, literally, and then one running around and another one hanging over my shoulder and writing like that. And I did that for years. And I think I burnt myself out though, for sure, because I can't write right now. I just, I feel like...I need my kids to like, I need to enjoy these years with my kids now after they move out. Maybe I can think about writing again, but it's just, it's just too hard. Even though they're in school now. It's because it's all consuming. Like I've been thinking about writing a bit recently, but even like even this podcast, like whenever I'm not thinking about other stuff, I'm thinking about the podcast during the week because you have to, you have to, you have to think ahead to.to who you're gonna talk to and how you gotta promote and what the story is and things like that. You can't. You have to prepare. You had to prepare. You had to think about it. But that's also like the fun part of writing, I always found. It gives you those things to think about in between the time you're thinking about life. Yes, but it can take over. And I found that for me, like it was taking over, you know, every.every empty space and I didn't want to be, I didn't want that to be the case with my kids, you know, because they're just, they're, they're only around in your space for so long and I want them there so. Nice. So did that, when did that realization come? Was that sort of after the end of the second memoir or was that because then you started to write fiction as well? Yeah, I managed to. So I did switch into fiction and I wrote, I actually just, I wroteI wrote like a romance series, which was kind of fun, just kind of for, almost kind of for practice, you know? What I really wanted to write was more like in a domestic noir vein. And I started writing a couple of books like that. And I just realized like, I just couldn't do it. You know, there was like...michael tranmer (34:01.538)Fiction is super different. Like it's apples and oranges. Yeah. How do you write fiction? Oh my God. If a guy is going to learn how to write fiction, where does he go? Where does he go? I am not the person to ask. Okay. I'll take somebody else's course. Right. Cause it's, you know, after a certain while, like that seems to be the, the obvious, you know, path you can only write so many, so much memoir. Right. I mean, yeah, there will be no more stories about me. Um, but, but yeah, it's, it's a completely different.animal. And I just found that like with these books, I could kind of go up go through my day because the story was always there. And then when I sat down, it's like I could think about, well, how do I want to tell that part of the story? So I could really compartmentalize. But with fiction, I was like all day I was like working out well, you know, the plot.You know, fiction, fiction makes me anxious because you have to, you have to come up with the story and all the characters and go backwards from there. But it must, I mean, it must be figure out a bowl. It is, of course. Yeah. And I mean, I do think that like I've written outlines and first chapters for about five books. And I think that for sure I will go back to them. Like, you know, I showed them to my agent. She really liked a couple. So, uh, but I just like, no, not until the kids are, you know, off.on their own doing their thing. And that'll, I guess, be my retirement hobby. A lot of years to go until then. So what happened after, let's go back to when North and Normal came out. Finally, put five, six years into it. It's good. You got the major publisher. People know it's good. You start to promote a bit. What was life like then when people started reading it?It was super interesting. I mean, I was definitely super nervous. Yeah. You know, I had not told anyone really in my life, like the full story, except my husband, who knew by that time, because he'd read drafts and I, you know, but.michael tranmer (36:09.91)But everybody else, like, you know, even my close friends, they knew a little bit, but not much. And then there was like, I was living in West Van at the time and I'm like, oh my God, this is gonna be interesting. Like if the West, some of the West Van poems, right? Start reading my story. I saw them all as being, you know, very.michael tranmer (36:28.806)they just really had their lives together, you know? And I felt like they came from such a different background. So it was really amazing because as soon as it came out, like I started getting, you know, I would run into someone in the street or at the school or I'd get an email and then they would have a story for me. And I'd be like, oh my God, like I made assumptions about these people that were so not true. Like we've all lived through difficult things. And...So there was that part which was really cool and I was prepared for like, you know, negativity and I couldn't believe it, but I've, you know, the book's been out almost 10 years now and I haven't had any. Like, I mean, yeah, if you go into Goodreads, you're gonna see all this book stocks, you know, but like directed at me, like, you know, on social media or by email or messages or anything, it's all just been really.really just kind of grateful for sharing the story. And I mean, nobody has the same story, but they have the same feelings or insecurities or whatever not fitting in. Universal truths, right? Like, yeah. And and, you know, I think the not fitting in this is a huge one. I think that everyone at some point in their life feels like, you know, the freak standing against the wall. Like,Like your drive was to be normal and to fit in and then yeah, same with a lot of people. But you know, some normal people might have the opposite. They may want to escape being normal and try to be a freak or try to be an outcast or something like that. So is it an element of grass is green? Are you going to feel better over in one compartment or another? Or is it just kind of, you know?becoming at peace with who we really are. I think it's that, what you just said, becoming at peace with who you are. I think that, you know, I mean, for me, I always knew who I was from a very young age, and I was like, I would look at my family and be like, I'm just not like these people, you know? I was five years old, and I barely knew about the white picket fence, but I already wanted it, and...michael tranmer (38:48.894)So it was just really a matter of following that instinct for what I wanted. And I guess other, you know, some people I guess are born into the right circumstances and they don't have to make those big changes. I'm sure some people are.born into what they think is a very boring normal family and then they need to break out of that. It's whatever is inside you. And then they may reflect and go, oh wow, that was actually pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, as I do now, right? I mean, I go, okay, yeah, so it wasn't all bad and sometimes I wish I could take elements of what my family did and, you know, do something similar with my family, but yeah. Nice, nice. So the film, pretty good.It is good, right? Yeah. Well, I saw last, when was, when was Vancouver film? Last August? Last July? August? September? It was like a year ago. Okay. Yeah, it was a year ago. Yeah. I remember seeing it downtown. But yeah, I cried, man. It was sad. It was because, you know, the you, the character played by you also, also you, it just, just trying to get that, that right sort of love from your mom. Yeah. And it, and it, and it.And it doesn't really, at least for me, it didn't become super clear or peek towards the end. But what I remember was like, kind of after that, it was like just that clarity of not having that. It was kind of like an element of being okay with that and kind of moving on independently. Yeah, and I definitely did have to do that as a teen. And I think they represented that well in the movie. I don't think that in real life, I mean,I like my mom died 15 years ago and I still haven't totally made peace with her. I mean, that's just that's the truth. Yeah. So I don't know. There's nothing that life does not. There's not many bows that you can wrap around things. Sometimes things are just not going to be good and they're going to. Yeah. That's how it is. Remain complex. Yeah. And I think you just have to settle in with.michael tranmer (41:05.538)being willing to, you know, I think we all like to try to simplify and label things. And not everything can be. And so, you know, my mom, my relationship with my mom is one of those things. Yeah. So what was it like seeing the film for the first time? Oh, my God, I was a nervous wreck. Were you nervous because it was, perhaps it wasn't going to be good or it was because you know, there's going to be some, somecreative decisions made. And it's not gonna be exactly your life and it's not exactly gonna be the book, but that's not necessarily the right way to do it anyway and tell the story. So you must've known that. Yeah, I mean, I had read the script. The producer was really great at keeping me informed and consulting with me and letting me read it along the way. So I knew that the script was good. I knew I liked the script.I loved the cast. I had spent a couple of days on set, so I knew that everyone really knew what they were doing. The director was fantastic. The, you know, the photography was beautiful, all of that. And the sets, they did an amazing job with. But, yeah, I had no idea if I'm a super, oh, by the way, yeah, PS, I'm like the worst, worst movie critic. Like, I hate everything. Because it's so hard to pay attention.I find I just and usually they suck and you wasted two hours. There's just so few movies I like and I turned them off, turn them off, turn them off. And so I was like, Oh, my God, if this is one of those exactly because then you're not going to be able to hide it because then you couldn't be excited to promote it. Yeah, exactly. OK, yeah, I get that. So I sat I saw it for the first time that Tiff actually when it premiered there and I was there with my husband and I was just like, Oh, my God, I can't.Yeah, I was super nervous. But anyway, I, it was cool because within five minutes of watching it, I knew I was gonna love it because it was like the kind of movie that oh, like the first five minutes. Yes. Okay. First five minutes. It was like the kind of movie that I would put on at home and I would love so I was like, okay, I'm gonna love it. And I did nice. So that was a year ago. It was in the film festivals. But now it's now it's now it's online. Yeah, it's I think it's still in some theaters actually, but I'm not totally sure. But it's Yeah, it's on.michael tranmer (43:30.782)like Amazon Prime and Apple TV and Google and I think a couple of other ones. Nice, so does it come in full circle now? Like that's really cool though, right? Does that feel like the dream was supposed to feel? Like it's great. I think you don't know, right, until you're there. And I didn't spend a lot of time imagining how it would feel because, you know,films go sideways all the time. And I was just pleased and shocked that it actually got made because there's so many things that can derail a project like that. And it was small budget and it was COVID and oh my God, there was just like so many things to go wrong. So I was just really happy that it got made. And yeah, I mean, how amazing is it that I am able to sort of leave this.this, I guess, legacy of my family behind for my own kids, for anybody who's interested. The thing that excited me the most about the film is that, you know, unfortunately, my family is all passed on, my mom and my grandparents, but if they knew that their lives, oh my God, I think they would have a good laugh. Yeah. And that they were played by such amazing actors. And you know,I just think that would have been very cool for them. My mom especially would have just been. What do you like? What do you think she would have said? What she would have? She would have been beside herself with excitement. Are you kidding? And she wouldn't have even cared like how she was portrayed. She would she just would have been like, did you see how beautiful the actress is playing there? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So where to from here?Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of like I said, I'm taking a little break from the writing and I'm working on, I have a little hobby where I make clay flowers. Yeah, they're really gorgeous. Thank you. Thanks. So I'm going to continue with that. I'm also poking away at a screenplay. Oh fun. Yeah, so should be finished that relatively soon. And then that's a whole new ball game because I've never written or tried to sell a screenplay before. So we'll see how that goes. Oh, cool.michael tranmer (45:59.842)I've read, I mean, I've taken some acting classes over the last year. And so read a bunch of screenplays and the right, the writing is, and then worked on them and seen studied the writing is so cool. Yeah. And you know what? And it's so, I love that it just moves and that like, instead of spending laborious hours over paragraphs, you can just kind of like, you got your plot out there and you, you just visualize it and you write it.And I'm a very visual person. So it's just a lot. Yeah. You can accomplish so much in so fewer words, but with the acting and whatever the visuals are, but that seems like a, like a, not an easier dance, but yeah, that's like, that could be an easier dance. I think it's, yeah. I'm interested to see where it goes. Interesting. How did, so how do you do, was that an original idea?Yeah, it's, yeah, and I won't say much about it, but it's not about me. Yeah. No, it's completely not based on anything in my life, but it is about a mother-daughter relationship, funny enough, but completely different from mine. Interesting. Yeah. So what, you know, you're focused on your kids and your relationships mainly right now. You've had a huge burst of creativity.in the past and still brewing and do whatever. Yeah, again, how it feels right now again in the future. So where so what would you say you're. You know, what do you what are you learning about yourself these days, perhaps in your relationship with your kids or your husband or just, you know, in this stage of your life where those are the focus, not on the not on the creative aspects, because I imagine the learning, even though.you're not writing pen to paper type thing, that you're still learning other things. Yeah, yeah. And that's a great question. I mean, I do still spend a lot of time thinking about how I'm raising my kids compared to the way I was raised and trying to make sure I'm not repeating some of the same mistakes. And one thing I've learned about myself is that like,michael tranmer (48:16.126)In some ways, I'm more like my mom than I'd like to admit. Oh, boy. That's, you know, I think a lot of people would say that. And so, yeah, I've learned, I'm still learning how my past has affected me as an adult, and I'm trying to improve on, you know, areas of my life that I consider to be kind of blind spots. So that, and I've also learned that, you know,michael tranmer (48:48.262)I that you know, life is very much about phases and eras and I'm becoming I think I'm trying to become more accepting of that. Because we want things to kind of stay how they are. And so learning how to accept change is I think a big, a big thing that I need to work on.Yeah, so and also I've learned that I really would like to, you know, I love change. And that kind of contradicts what I just said, because I love, I love eras, and I love the security of, you know, knowing that there are, you know, people and things in my life that are working.But at the same time, I know that I get bored and I know that's from my past. And I like, cause it was like constant change when I was a kid. And so yeah, I'm, we're working on making some big changes right now. And yeah, it just, it goes on and on. It doesn't get any easier, right? But it gets different. Did you get, you get, I'm so impatient. I'm the worst.No, no, no. So does it does it. And all these apps, all the things I have, I'm like, I'm like, maybe they're working, I don't know. Today. No, I don't know. Whatever. But just to get frustrated when, when you're not like, even though like right now you're not even necessarily trying to get anywhere, it sounds like right now there's nowhere to be right here. We're we're in it, but still. Right. But still we think something else.and some other piece and some other home or whatever it is, right? So you have the same torment? Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. How do you work with that? Well, I think that's part of what I'm working on right now is like trying to calm that beast a little bit and be more present in what's happening at the moment and not always like being this person who needs the next.michael tranmer (51:04.546)thing because that is like, it's an unfillable void. And so trying to just like, yeah, push that out a little bit and be like, no, I don't have to chase that right at this moment. Let's see if I still want to chase it in six months, which I've never done before. Like I'm always like, want that going for it, you know, and obviously you're good at that. Well, I am, but like,it can be too much sometimes. Like I can, you know, decide I want to do something and then I go off without even like headlong, right? Without really thinking it through. It robs you of the present moment if we're always trying and being anxious about what could or could not happen as well. Exactly. Yeah. And that's something like, you know, your question before of what I'm learning about myself is like, or about life is, is that like, I have this insatiable, like I'm anWhich is I don't know I don't know It's the achiever. Oh, yes that you're just never sad. I got a piece of that always got to be Achieving what's wrong with that though? What it's just endless pit misery So the Sam Harris app that I'm listening to he sends out these it's actually pretty cool I'm a fan, but he sends out these moments at a couple times per day and they're like a minutelong. And so I actually quite enjoy them when they pop onto my phone. But there was one yesterday where he was talking about if you, if you think back to all these moments, like, you know, when your book got published, the second one got published, or your, your kids were born, or you got married.And then if you think ahead to things you want to do and happen, and his, his point was just like, you know, no matter where you were or what happened at that time or how you felt like that's just a memory and whatever happens in the future again, like none of, not that it doesn't matter, but it's not, it doesn't really change who you are and how you are and what you're feeling right now.michael tranmer (53:13.046)So even though we go and try to achieve these things, we're still gonna be sitting here in 10 or 20 years, like if we choose tormenting ourselves, thinking about what else we're gonna do in the future. Exactly, yeah, totally. Doesn't make it much easier. It doesn't, and you know, even when my books had just come out and I was kind of in the midst of promoting them and you know.doing all that stuff that I dreamed about for a long time. I was already thinking about like, well, what's next? You know, what am I gonna do next? What can I, how can I like do more? And so that's stupid. But so have we reached a conclusion on how not to do this? No. I know. Well, maybe we can laugh about it and be aware of it. It's kind of- That is kind of- Step one. But-I mean, I like doing things and spending my day thinking and doing, but you know, as Eckhart Tolle would say, you got the doing and then the being. So you go for a walk and I have a lot of really nice moments throughout the week, just like going for walks and seeing beauty. That's good. Oh, yes. Yeah. Good for you. And talking to people and thinking about things, but the rest of the week is... So I think it's, I guess we're both working progress on how to manage the...what we want to do and what we want to achieve. That's right. Yeah. And also recognizing for me, like I don't know about you, I can't speak for you, but for me it comes from definitely this feeling of like that I was not enough, you know, and I think a lot of people have that. I got it because my mom was always like kind of discounting me for her boyfriends and I was trying to win her love and so it was like I was not.enough. And so you have to go out there and like achieve things and that will be enough. So just like kind of like understanding that and trying to not be as controlled by that. That's yeah. Yeah, I was talking about that with Deidre who was sitting here last week and something I've been thinking about like the self-worth. Right. So if we don't need to do and achieve tomichael tranmer (55:24.962)to either for ourselves feel like we're enough or prove to others, which is, and you know, it stings when you look back in the past and realize things you've done to try to achieve that. Yeah, it's almost like kind of embarrassing. Oh, it's a thousand percent, but hey, you know, if it got your first book written, right? Like kind of a... And you know, when people ask me these days what I'm doing, I can actually kind of say, you know, like not a whole lot. And I'm okay with that.Like that's the first time I've ever really said that. And, oh my God, can you hear my stomach grumbling? That's so embarrassing. No. Okay, good. You're good. Yeah, I can say that and be okay with it. So that's a big step. So how good does that feel? I think it's a big step for me. And so I'm gonna try and sit in this a little bit longer. Beautiful. Yeah. Because then, yeah, because then, you know, ideally I would say.of been thinking and feeling ideal sort of the same things, or at least thinking that those are the words I like to say and also feel at the same time. Yeah, without feeling like you need to qualify as something. But I'm going to be doing this sooner, right? Yeah. But even if we are in that state and we're creating things like podcasts or whatever, so then ideally we're not creating out of a sense of lack, we're creating out of a sense of joy or inspiration or fun or, and I thinkwhat you said, I was watching an interview where you said like in the first however many years when you were trying to get a publisher for North and Normal, it was really kind of driven by money or fame or whatever it is. But then when you switched and pivoted to see that, oh okay maybe I'm just meant to share my story and then things kind of switched. Totally yeah it really was a moment ofchasing the like realizing I was chasing the wrong thing or chasing it for the wrong reasons and And like no wait actually the most important thing here is that like I said I wanted to know if other people would connect with my story if they had stories similar to mine and that maybe you know there could be like some sort ofmichael tranmer (57:49.542)uh help is the wrong word but you know you know connection relation right relating between you know in regards to all of that and that's when i started writing my story a lot more authentically i think okay now okay we're almost there a couple good ones here right well like what if what if what if we can say we in thisor you or me or whatever. Like what if we don't achieve anything else for the rest of our lives? That is a distinct possibility, yeah. Well, I mean, what if in terms of achievement and like creation and making money or whatever, so, you know, it's a distinct possibility for everyone. So is that a failed life or a blah, blah? But ideally we know there's an answer that says no.I think for me at this point, I would have to say that like, you know, and I actually had this conversation with my husband the other day. I'm like, oh, not making any money. Like, I feel like such a loser. And he's like, he's like, oh my God, like, can you stop? You know, and yeah, I mean, I'm lucky to have like a really, you know, supportive, great guy in my life, you know, but so things might be different if that were not the case, but right now I feel like.My kids are my main priority. Raising them and seeing them become reach their potential, I think is for sure my focus right now. If nothing else, I've got that and I've got books that I'm proud of writing and my movie.You know that, that's sure. Yeah. I'll take that. That's, I mean, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty good line. My books and my movie and my kids, like that's, that's my family. Yeah. That's a pretty good summary of success. I would, I would say, I think, and then, you know, ideally we get up and, and feel in that state for however many years are left. I think that alone is an X success. Like our people don't want us to see us beating ourselves down. They want us to kind of revel in our.michael tranmer (59:59.518)amazingness. Right, right, yeah, let's try that. So we're giving away this book, Nearly Normal, your second book. Yes, yeah, I didn't have a copy of my first one at home. So how we do it? When you're watching this episode or listening to it, if you share it on social media, on Instagram, on this day that it comes out and tag Sia and I, then someone will win it. So where else? It's signed. Signed.Where else can people find you? My books or me? Well, your books. Your books and your movie. Well, the books are like in pretty much in every bookstore. Yeah, and the movie, I, well, so it's on Amazon Prime. I know that it's on Google Play. It's on Apple TV. Maybe some other ones. I'm not sure. I think it's still in a couple of theaters, but I'm not sure. Amazing. Yeah.And what else do I need to say? No, I think, yeah, highly recommend it. You know, whether you're a reader or if you're not a reader, watch the movie. That's kind of the beauty of that. Sure, it's only 90 minutes long too. It's not a long, it's a pretty quick watch. But it's so great that it's also available online now. After the, because it wasn't always for certain that it was gonna go from the festivals to online. Exactly, yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, it's out there.and yeah, watch it. I know. So last question. Okay. When we sit down in five or five or 10 years from now, right? Well, I don't know if you know what's going to be happening, but I'm pretty sure we're going to have something to talk about though, right? Hopefully. Well, you know, I don't I know even if we're talking about the learning and the lessons, I don't think they stop. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like whatever the creations are, they'd be what...May, but that's kind of exciting on its own. Like there's still life between now and then. For sure, for sure. And I mean, if you're a creative person, like you are too, you know, it's just, it always finds its way back. But, you know, I found that even with my first book, like there were times in between drafts where I would let it lie completely fallow for like, you know, nine or 10 months, not even look about it, not look at it, not think about it. And I do think that you...michael tranmer (01:02:28.078)like you do if creativity is your thing, you need those times that feel very unproductive and are uncomfortable. But when you get back to it, you kind of realize that you did need it. Yeah. So. Well, that's what, like when you asked me when you first came in, like where I got this idea. Yeah, I originally mainly got it at the beginning of the summer, but that was after about nine months of doing Jackall.Right. Because at the end of last year, something about the nine months. Yeah, the nine months of doing sweet because I was burnt. I was burnt out and tired from writing the show and doing the show last summer. Yeah. My whole brain into learning how to act. And it was so cool. But I was like a zombie. Right. But I sure that was a very uncomfortable nine months of doing not because I felt useless and worthless and so like Penta. But where do I put it? But where do I put it? Yeah.So next time that comes about, I think, you know, I think as each one of those, those phases comes, perhaps they'll be, we'll be a little bit more gentle on ourselves. But it's fun once you get the idea. Exactly. Yes, totally. Yeah. Try to be more gentle. Exactly. And I'll take my own advice. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Thanks for time. All right. Okay. Good. You're the best. Aw, that was fun.michael tranmer (01:03:50.382)That's the idea. One hour, three minutes. All right.