0:10

Hi, this is Eloy Ortiz Oakley

0:12

and welcome back to The Rant, the podcast

0:14

where we pull back the curtain and break down

0:16

the people, the policies, and

0:18

the politics of our higher education system.

0:21

In this episode, I get to sit down with

0:23

Rachel Fishman, Director of Education

0:26

at New America. Rachel leads

0:28

the education policy work of a very dynamic

0:31

and influential think and

0:33

action tank. Rachel has

0:35

also been involved in New America's work around

0:37

the well read education

0:40

survey called Varying Degrees.

0:42

I'm going to sit down with Rachel and ask her several

0:44

questions about what's going on in higher education

0:47

these days, but before we do all that, Rachel,

0:50

welcome to The Rent.

0:52

Thank you so much for having me.

0:54

It's great to have you. Thanks for doing this.

0:56

I know how busy you are, particularly this time of year.

0:59

So, Rachel, you are the acting director of higher

1:01

education. At New America,

1:04

you've been involved in higher education

1:07

policy work for more

1:09

than 10 years and have been instrumental

1:11

in the work focused on how Americans

1:13

think about the value of higher

1:16

education. However, before

1:18

we jump into all that great work,

1:20

let's talk about you. Tell us about your

1:23

higher education journey and how you

1:25

landed in your current role at New

1:27

America.

1:29

Yeah. I always love

1:31

questions like this because when you work

1:33

in policy you get asked

1:35

this question a lot. And what you find out over time

1:37

is that there are very few

1:41

Routes that are straightforward into these

1:43

policy roles. So,

1:45

you know, like a lot of policy people,

1:47

I went to college and I majored in French.

1:50

I am kidding.

1:51

ha

1:52

There probably aren't a ton of us who majored

1:54

in French out there. I'm sure there's some of us who majored

1:56

in French out there. But the

1:58

reason why I say this is because a lot

2:00

of people in these policy roles

2:03

majored in humanities, social sciences,

2:06

liberal arts and I

2:08

think, you know, these, these

2:10

majors are really under threat lately. Like,

2:12

what does that get you in the workforce?

2:15

And it's like, well, it could get you a job like, If

2:17

you learn how to be a good communicator,

2:20

if you learn how to be a good writer, if you learn

2:22

how to think dynamically and critically

2:24

about issues, all that

2:26

these degrees are supposed to give you, then

2:29

you can fare very, very well

2:31

in your career. So this is all to say, Don't

2:34

fret, French majors out there,

2:36

there is a place for you in the world,

2:38

and you also get to visit France and

2:41

speak some French on vacation.

2:44

So, anyways, I got my

2:46

French degree and I thought I wanted to go into law,

2:48

and so before I went to law school,

2:51

I worked in a law firm to try

2:53

and see what that was like. And this

2:55

is at the height of the great recession. And,

2:57

and I got to witness a large

3:00

reduction in force at the law firm I was working

3:02

at. I think over the time I was there,

3:04

10 to 20 percent of the, of the

3:06

workforce was, was laid off. And I always felt

3:08

like at any moment, my, my number

3:10

was going to be called. I was going to be out. So

3:13

that was really stressful, but I also saw

3:15

that law was just really not going to be for me.

3:18

I didn't particularly like

3:20

what I was engaging in, and

3:23

I realized maybe my talents

3:25

were better off elsewhere, and so

3:27

I went back to school to pursue

3:30

another career path in higher education

3:32

administration because I really

3:34

valued working with students. I'd done a lot of it

3:36

as an undergrad. I was an academic advisor,

3:39

worked in residence life and

3:41

so I thought, you know, maybe this is what I really want

3:43

to do. But what

3:45

happened while I was in grad school is that I just fell

3:47

in love with my policy classes. I got to take a few

3:49

policy classes with some great thinkers

3:52

and it really inspired me.

3:54

And I also got to work this

3:56

really great internship in Boston Public

3:58

Library in the basement, helping

4:01

students navigate the financial

4:03

aid process, helping them choose

4:05

where to go to college, helping

4:07

them understand what would be

4:09

the best financial fit and academic

4:12

fit for me. And in helping

4:14

these students, I saw that there are just so many

4:16

policy barriers particularly

4:18

at the time with the FAFSA. I filled out so many

4:20

FAFSAs, it was like something has to change with this.

4:23

And so I really saw policy

4:25

at that point as the perfect marriage between

4:27

my desire to help make things better for

4:29

low income, first generation students

4:32

of color, and my love for research

4:34

analysis, law and policy.

4:37

And that took me right here to Washington, DC. And that's basically

4:40

where I've been ever since I've been, at

4:42

New America for over a decade in a variety

4:44

of roles and I've

4:47

really grown up, like, over the past

4:49

10 years from policy analyst to director.

4:52

And I direct our, our program at New America

4:55

where our vision is a higher

4:57

education system that is accessible.

4:59

affordable, equitable, and

5:01

accountable for helping students lead fulfilling

5:04

and economically secure lives.

5:06

Well, thanks for that background. And

5:08

that's certainly a a

5:11

great framing for our conversation.

5:13

So. Let's start with the

5:16

most recent news in

5:19

the higher education landscape. There's

5:21

a lot of talk in Congress, particularly

5:23

in the House, about short term Pell.

5:25

There's been a lot of talk in Congress over the last

5:27

year about short term Pell, and I know New

5:30

America has weighed in on a couple of different

5:32

proposals that have come up, but this latest

5:35

proposal in the House, I

5:37

know that you and, and your colleague

5:39

Amy there at New America have weighed in

5:42

pretty aggressively about the proposal.

5:44

Tell us, tell our listeners about this

5:47

latest proposal in the house

5:50

to introduce a new short term Pell

5:52

program, and what are your

5:54

concerns about it? Mm

5:56

I think short term Pell really is a policy

5:59

misnomer and I'm here to unpack that.

6:01

So right now you can get

6:03

a Pell grant for a short term program.

6:06

That's 15 weeks. So

6:08

right now you actually can get a Pell

6:10

grant for a short term program that is only

6:13

a semester's length when policymakers

6:15

on the Hill are discussing quote unquote

6:18

short term Pell. What they're talking about

6:20

is expanding Pell to

6:22

Even shorter credentials. At

6:24

this point, I want to call them teeny tiny credentials,

6:27

little, little credentials that are only

6:29

8 to 14 weeks long. So

6:32

we are we

6:34

are in the future of this. If this comes

6:36

to pass and there's a really good chance that

6:38

it's going to happen extending

6:41

the Pell Grant to, to to

6:43

certificate programs that are less

6:45

than half a semester.

6:48

And you know,

6:50

I've never seen such

6:53

excitement, bipartisan

6:56

excitement. I mean, there's so few issues

6:58

that have bipartisan excitement

7:01

around them, especially like

7:03

any topic area, but also in higher education.

7:05

And short term Pell is just one of those places

7:08

where policy makers are like, yeah, this

7:10

is totally awesome. People

7:12

should get short term credentials to

7:14

go to short term

7:16

programs like welding. Leaving

7:18

aside the fact that welding programs are actually

7:20

much, much more than 8 to 14

7:23

weeks. So, first of all, again, these

7:25

are, people are always envisioning longer

7:27

term programs. But

7:30

there's just no evidentiary

7:32

basis for expanding

7:36

Pell grants to these very short term

7:38

programs. They just do not have

7:40

the economic outcomes that

7:43

policymakers have been hearing

7:45

anecdotally which

7:48

is why they've been, they've been pursuing this. First,

7:50

you know, again, a lot of policymakers think, oh,

7:52

you can't get a short term Pell when, yes,

7:54

actually, you can get a short term Pell.

7:57

And then a lot of policymakers

7:59

think that the outcomes are better

8:01

than they are. We don't have a lot

8:03

of data on what the outcomes for these credentials

8:05

are, but the data that we do have,

8:07

Numerica's done an analysis, and

8:11

40 percent of people who

8:13

earn these very, very short term

8:15

credentials are unemployed after

8:18

they earn them. That's not a great outcome.

8:20

That's a terrible outcome. And

8:22

then, Most are,

8:25

on average, earning poverty

8:27

level wages, and where it gets really

8:29

damning is that when

8:31

you break that down by Black

8:33

students, by Latinx students,

8:36

by particularly women

8:39

you see even lower

8:41

suppressed wages 10,

8:44

lower than those poverty level earnings

8:47

that I mentioned. So, don't

8:49

have a lot of evidence to do this. and

8:52

what evidence we do have is that

8:54

we shouldn't do this. So

8:56

lots of concerns about

8:59

short term Pell and I think the

9:01

the answer really if

9:04

it if it moves forward as

9:06

it moves forward is that there are.

9:08

Lots of guardrails from a consumer protection

9:10

standpoint that really prevent

9:13

students from enrolling and using

9:16

their time and their, their Pell

9:18

Grant lifetime eligibility on

9:20

these programs. And so that's

9:22

what we're really monitoring at New America

9:25

is the various guardrails that

9:27

are within the various pieces of

9:29

legislation.

9:30

Right. And I certainly appreciate

9:33

that last point. The guardrails are critically

9:35

important so that any

9:37

new investment on the part of

9:39

the federal government is going to

9:41

its directed target, which are individuals

9:44

who need skills to get into

9:46

the workforce, to upscale

9:49

themselves, to get

9:51

a chance to better participate

9:54

in economic mobility that we want for

9:56

them. I

9:58

know I've talked to a lot of folks on

10:00

my podcast. This

10:03

issue has come up a lot. People I talk to,

10:05

particularly in the community colleges are

10:08

excited about the possibility. So

10:11

let me, let me sort of

10:13

pose to you the other side of this argument.

10:16

And, and tell me your

10:19

thoughts about how

10:21

you would craft guardrails.

10:23

Particularly as we think about. The

10:26

recently developed gainful

10:28

employment regs by the Department of Education

10:32

I think certainly are potential

10:36

guardrails for some of this work having to prove

10:39

that these programs actually lead to earnings,

10:42

making sure that these programs are

10:44

not terminal programs, that they continue

10:47

to lead to higher level credentials.

10:49

because I think most of the people I talk

10:51

to have no argument with.

10:53

the bachelor's degree being, you

10:56

know, that, that greatest lifelong lever

10:58

for economic mobility. But

11:01

also on the flip side, there's lots of bachelor's

11:04

degrees that we fund through Pell that also

11:06

lead to poverty wages. I think Michael Itzkowitz

11:08

has done a lot of work highlighting

11:11

some of that. So how, how do you see the

11:13

other side of this coin and

11:16

the enthusiasm, the bipartisan

11:18

enthusiasm? Particularly

11:21

from folks in, in community

11:23

colleges who have been thinking about this

11:25

a lot. How

11:27

do you reconcile the two sides of, of this

11:29

argument?

11:30

this is a, this is a great question. So

11:32

I think the good, the, the good

11:34

news, despite still

11:37

very valid concerns about the legislation

11:40

is that there

11:43

are guardrails within

11:45

the legislation that we see. To your point,

11:48

I think any short term Pell legislation

11:50

moving forward is going to have to have important

11:53

earnings thresholds

11:57

You know earnings gains.

12:00

I think a big one is excluding the for

12:02

profit sector. So you were talking

12:04

about community colleges. Community colleges do

12:06

a lot of this, this training.

12:09

But the for profit

12:11

institutions tend to, when they get

12:13

their hands on, on taxpayer dollars,

12:16

they tend to exploit that

12:18

and they tend to be predatory and they tend

12:20

to grow their programs So making

12:22

sure, that's one, that's one way

12:24

to make sure that we don't

12:27

sort of open the floodgates to

12:30

to these programs and having them

12:32

just turbo charge and

12:34

grow before we really understand and

12:37

see their outcomes. And then another

12:40

similar guardrail would be

12:43

to prevent, Online programs

12:45

from participating. You know, one of the reasons

12:48

why policy makers say they want

12:50

to do this expansion is because people

12:52

need to have training

12:54

for very hands on careers. You

12:56

can't have training for a hands on career

12:59

if you're doing it online. So,

13:01

so, sort of excluding online

13:03

programs from accessing something

13:07

like a short term Pell is

13:09

important to, again, prevent that massive

13:12

and sudden growth and

13:14

also keep fidelity with

13:17

making sure that the degrees

13:19

are for those hands on certificates

13:22

that policy makers say that

13:25

their, their regions really need and which

13:27

is why, why we, we need this

13:29

program. I mean In general,

13:31

and I know we're going to talk about value today

13:34

when it comes to the work we see from,

13:37

from Mike, as you mentioned about bachelor's

13:40

degrees some bachelor's degrees, not

13:42

having a good payoff either. I

13:44

think it's important that. One

13:47

of the reasons I think value

13:49

is faltering in this nation or perception

13:51

of value of a higher education is faltering in this

13:53

nation is that we just, things have gotten really

13:55

expensive. People have to borrow

13:58

a lot of loans or there's at least a sense

14:00

that people have to borrow a lot of loans to afford

14:02

it. And then you see data that

14:04

it's not. It's not worth

14:06

it. And so I think this just points to

14:09

in general, not just for these short

14:11

term programs, not just for career

14:13

oriented gainful employment programs.

14:16

We need oversight writ large

14:18

on higher education to make sure that

14:21

students are meeting some minimum

14:23

Benchmarks, not high benchmarks. We're not going to expect

14:26

teachers to make a ton of money and we're not going to expect

14:28

social workers to make a ton of money.

14:30

But low benchmarks

14:32

such as did you graduate

14:34

and can you make more than somebody in your

14:36

state who has just a high school degree?

14:39

I mean, that is a very low benchmark.

14:41

That is common sense for

14:43

a lot of institutions and students and families

14:46

deserve to know that information when they're

14:48

rolling in these programs.

14:50

Oh, we completely agree with

14:52

you. I know in my day job

14:54

the College Reaches Foundation, those

14:56

are the kind of questions we're going to be digging into for

14:59

our learners in California, getting

15:01

more and better information to the learner and their families.

15:04

Now, before we move

15:07

to specifically talking

15:09

about value, let me ask you one last thing

15:11

about this short term Pell

15:14

proposal, because I think it's, it's caused a lot

15:16

of kerfuffle. The

15:19

pay for aspect of, of

15:22

the proposal, how, how this would actually

15:24

be paid for. I know you

15:27

all have raised some serious concerns

15:29

about that. Can you explain to, to our listeners

15:31

exactly what that aspect of

15:33

the proposal?

15:35

Oh my goodness. Hang on to your seats, folks,

15:37

because if you haven't been paying attention, here's where

15:39

things get really interesting. So, all along

15:42

the way, we're all going like, okay, sure, sure,

15:44

short term Pell, don't love this hope

15:47

it has a lot of guardrails. Reading through the

15:49

legislation, you get to page, like, 27,

15:51

and it's like, here's how we're going to pay for it.

15:54

So, and this was, and I think it's important

15:56

to note, this was a bipartisan agreement. So

15:58

this is a bipartisan bill between

16:02

the chairwoman Representative

16:04

Fox of the Education Workforce Committee

16:06

in the House Ranking Member

16:08

Scott who's also

16:10

on, on that committee. So,

16:13

I mean, that just shows, like, how much

16:15

negotiation went into this. And the pay for

16:18

is that any school

16:20

that faces the endowment

16:23

Tax. So that's, I think,

16:26

like 34. It's in the low

16:28

30s institutions. So these

16:30

are the really wealthy private

16:32

institutions in the nation that they

16:35

would no longer be able

16:37

to participate in the federal

16:40

student government. So

16:42

they would no longer be able

16:45

to disperse any

16:48

federal student loans to undergraduates

16:51

and any, this one's really important

16:53

because I think this has bigger implications for these

16:55

schools, any graduate

16:58

students. So that includes the Graduate Plus

17:00

Loan Program.

17:01

Wow. Yeah, no, that's definitely

17:04

going to cause a lot of interest

17:06

Yeah, and I think it's just sort of slipped under the radar

17:08

because the wealthier institutions, right,

17:10

we're not paying attention

17:12

to the short term Pell legislation, because to your

17:14

point, this is more

17:17

These types of programs happen more,

17:19

much more in the community college sector

17:21

and the for profit sector. It's

17:23

not really what you would see at these wealthy,

17:26

high endowment institutions. So they've just,

17:28

you know, been going along, not paying attention. And

17:30

then all of a sudden, This gets

17:33

unveiled. It gets marked up this week.

17:35

It's moving very quickly. And

17:38

I think it's just been challenging

17:41

to raise the alarm bells on it

17:43

because we think,

17:45

you know, this opens up. First

17:48

of all, short term Pell could lead to predatory

17:50

programs for low income students of color

17:52

who just want a short term credential and just

17:55

get out of higher education. But

17:57

it also prevent, it also

17:59

leads to equity implications for,

18:02

particularly for students of color

18:04

who are trying to access prestigious law

18:07

and medical schools. You usually

18:09

have to borrow. I mean, Harvard doesn't give,

18:11

like, full schol that I know

18:13

of. I mean, maybe I'm speaking out of turn, but most

18:15

medical schools aren't like, we're giving you a

18:17

full ride to attend our medical school.

18:19

Medical education's really expensive.

18:22

Um, we want people to be able to,

18:25

to access these graduate schools,

18:27

even if it means loans, because we know if you go

18:29

to to, Harvard Medical School, you're going to be able to pay

18:31

back your loans. so it's

18:33

potentially cutting off routes of access

18:37

to, low income students

18:39

of color to, to these prestigious

18:41

grad schools, and we should all be really worried about

18:44

that.

18:44

I, I agree we should be worried about this whole conversation

18:47

because I think you know, certainly if you're

18:50

one of the wealthy schools right now, one

18:52

of the more rejective schools right now, you've had a really tough

18:54

couple of weeks. So

18:57

let's, let's jump into the value question because

18:59

I think this dovetails very well. There

19:02

is an erosion of

19:04

confidence, particularly in the most

19:07

what we have considered over time

19:09

as You know, the wealthiest

19:11

institutions, those institutions that we

19:13

have held up highest on the

19:16

value proposition in the past.

19:19

There's a lot of concern

19:21

about cost, a lot of concern

19:23

about indebtedness.

19:26

you all have been looking at this question

19:28

of post secondary

19:31

value for some time. You've published

19:33

a survey. Over the last several

19:35

years, titled of varying degrees,

19:37

tell us about what you found in your

19:39

recent survey and how

19:42

these perceptions of value are changing

19:44

over time.

19:45

so for, for those who don't know, Varying

19:48

Degrees is a nationally representative

19:50

annual survey on American

19:52

adults perceptions of higher education.

19:54

So we explore issues related to

19:56

value of higher education, how

19:58

Americans think it should be funded, and

20:01

how we should hold higher education accountable

20:03

for that funding, whether it be student investment,

20:06

taxpayer investment. great

20:08

about the survey is that it, And

20:11

what makes it so powerful, to your point, we've been doing

20:13

this for years now, so we actually just

20:15

signed, we're just in the process of

20:17

signing off on our instrument for 2024.

20:20

But we've been doing this since 2017,

20:22

and it really allows us to understand

20:24

perceptions over a time period that,

20:26

I mean, you think about life in 2017,

20:31

that this period has been full

20:33

of political and economic upheaval.

20:35

Uh, And so, you know,

20:37

how exactly. In

20:39

our survey, have, have perceptions

20:42

changed or not changed over time?

20:45

And one of the questions we've asked all seven

20:47

years is whether Americans think higher ed is just That,

20:51

that was phrased, we asked that on day one.

20:53

Maybe I would have phrased it differently if I could,

20:55

like, rewind time, But it's

20:57

really a temperature check question, to

21:00

understand, like, at this moment in time, like,

21:02

how are you feeling about higher education? Is it okay?

21:04

Is it working? And when we first

21:06

collected data, this was one of our big findings.

21:09

Only 1 in 4 thought higher education

21:11

was fine the way it is. What's

21:14

interesting is that people are still in the minority

21:16

on this question, but we've seen it increase

21:18

over the years to 40 percent. 40

21:21

percent of Americans say higher ed

21:23

is fine the way it is. So

21:27

we find that very interesting. We're trying

21:29

to unpack that a little bit more, more this

21:31

year go into field. Um,

21:34

But overall, like, there are some good

21:36

things when you look at the data. A

21:38

sizable majority believe that a close family

21:40

member should go to higher education, that they

21:42

would recommend it because it leads to economic

21:44

security. generally

21:46

agree that those who complete a post secondary

21:49

education have better jobs, more opportunities

21:51

to build wealth, that they contribute

21:54

to their communities in a variety of ways

21:56

um, tax revenues uh,

21:59

skilled workforce. And so you might

22:01

be sitting there thinking, wait, hold on a second.

22:04

I've seen some really bad

22:06

polling data saying exactly the

22:08

opposite. What the heck is going on? Wasn't

22:11

there a Paul Tuff article on this

22:13

issue in the New York Times Magazine recently

22:16

that kind of was unpacking all of this

22:18

and how Americans don't really believe in higher

22:20

ed that much anymore. And

22:23

so, you know, what I say to that is that yes,

22:25

our data paints a more positive picture.

22:29

I don't think things are as bad as they seem,

22:31

but we have certainly picked up on

22:33

what I would call this simmering

22:35

pessimism about higher education

22:38

over time that really does seem to be

22:40

taking hold. told

22:42

you about a whole host of questions about value

22:45

where people. In general, like

22:48

when you aggregate up that people feel like

22:50

fairly positive about things, but

22:52

new this year we did a demographic cluster

22:54

analysis where we tried to understand how

22:56

different people cluster on their thoughts

22:59

about value and what we

23:01

discovered is that 52 of Americans

23:03

It's just are higher ed believers. They're like,

23:05

sign me up. Everybody needs education.

23:08

Everybody needs more and more education to

23:10

have an economically secure

23:12

life. And then 48%,

23:15

which is really, really high, are skeptics.

23:18

They are not on board with higher education

23:21

and its value proposition at all. All

23:23

just not at all. give

23:25

you a quick overview, like what does this actually

23:27

look like? Like who are the believers? Who are the skeptics?

23:30

What do they believe and what are they skeptical about?

23:33

So the believers nearly all

23:35

think graduates benefit more economically

23:37

and socially compared to those without so

23:39

that there's a huge economic https: otter. ai benefit

23:41

to individuals. They also think

23:43

there's a huge societal benefit

23:45

to having people get more education

23:47

in terms of, tax revenues

23:50

contributing to their communities. And

23:53

most think that colleges and universities

23:55

are having a positive impact in the direction of

23:57

this country right now. they

24:00

think, you know, like I said, more and more education,

24:02

the more education you have, the better. Everybody should

24:04

get as much education as they should possibly get,

24:06

because that's going to make you lead a much better

24:08

life and get more wealth and all of those good things.

24:11

Meanwhile, the skeptics, they literally

24:13

see no benefit to a graduate.

24:16

compared to those without credentials? None.

24:18

Very few believe there are any social benefits

24:21

compared to those without credentials, though they

24:23

do believe they do see some social benefits.

24:25

So they're not like totally negative there, but

24:27

they are negative when it comes to a personal

24:30

return on investment. they're

24:32

more likely to think colleges

24:34

are having a negative impact on the way things are going

24:37

in, in this, in this country. probably

24:40

wondering, like, who are these people, right? Who,

24:42

are these just Democrat, you know, are the believers Democrats

24:44

and are the skeptics Republicans?

24:47

do a lot of Democrat Republican analysis because

24:49

we're situated in Washington, D. C., and

24:51

we talk to federal policy makers do

24:54

federal policy research. But I'm

24:56

here to tell everyone that the believers are not

24:58

all Democrats. While uh, plurality

25:01

of them are. 43 percent a full

25:03

fifth of believers are Republicans. So you

25:05

still have a full fifth that would consider

25:07

themselves Republicans. Similarly, skepticals

25:10

are more skeptics are more likely to be Republican,

25:13

but a full quarter are Democrats. So

25:15

this just isn't about it being

25:17

partisan. And

25:20

I like to leave people with this. I know I've been rambling

25:22

on and on about our data, but

25:24

what I find most concerning about what

25:26

we saw in the data was that For

25:30

our, our higher education skeptics, 40

25:33

percent believe that all you need

25:35

in this nation for economic security is

25:37

just a high school diploma and not a credit,

25:40

not a single credit of higher education

25:43

an additional 22 percent said all you need

25:46

is one of those short term technical certificates,

25:48

which I just said don't usually lead to the

25:50

returns we would, we would like to see.

25:53

so, It's just wild, the dissonance

25:56

to me, because that's, we

25:58

have so much economic data to show that

26:00

I don't know why you think a high school diploma

26:02

is sufficient. a lot of

26:04

data showing otherwise, and so we

26:06

should all be concerned about that.

26:09

absolutely. And I think this is a huge

26:12

alarm bell for my colleagues who are

26:14

leading institutions of

26:17

higher education throughout the country. We've

26:19

been seeing an erosion in confidence

26:21

in the institutions for years

26:24

since the Great Recession. And

26:26

this is just another reminder that we just need

26:28

to do a much better job. Of

26:30

one, clearing the path for learners

26:33

so that they can access those

26:36

institutions more clearly, more

26:38

readily in greater numbers,

26:41

lower the cost of attendance,

26:44

and show clear value

26:46

for the work that they're doing,

26:49

clearly articulate the,

26:51

the programs and curriculum with

26:54

the economic mobility

26:57

outcomes that they want to see. So

26:59

I think it is an important lesson for policymakers,

27:01

but also for the leaders in these institutions.

27:04

They can't just throw up their hands and

27:06

say, we're doing the best that we can. Clearly,

27:08

we're not doing the best that we can. Let

27:11

me ask you this.

27:13

You're looking at the landscape of higher education

27:16

from your perch there at New America. A lot

27:18

of uncertainty gripping higher education

27:20

institutions these days. There's an enrollment

27:22

decline. We've just seen, you

27:25

know, concerns raised

27:27

about student voices on campus.

27:30

Protests concerns about

27:33

DEIA on campuses. As

27:36

you, as you look at this from

27:38

your perspective, what do you see are some of

27:40

the biggest challenges that our listeners should be

27:42

paying attention to?

27:43

right now, the left is really

27:45

focused, or the left

27:47

movement, I mean, is really focused

27:49

on forgiving. Student loan debt,

27:52

right? in terms of like,

27:54

the platform of what we

27:56

are looking for in higher education, the right is really

27:59

focused on

28:02

Getting rid of loans or not necessarily

28:04

getting rid of them or capping them. Like,

28:06

oh, people are borrowing too many loans. So

28:08

the solution is don't let them borrow as

28:11

much loans, like not really looking

28:13

at the cost part of the equation. And, and

28:15

to your point, they're really focused on sort

28:17

of the free speech on campus, culture

28:19

wars. the challenges

28:21

with uh, hearing a couple of weeks

28:24

ago about antisemitism

28:26

on campus. And all of this is, is

28:29

sort of, yeah. Sucking a lot

28:31

of oxygen of

28:34

the room to have the policy discussions

28:36

that we, that we really need

28:38

to have. think when you

28:41

talk so much about forgiving debt and

28:44

there's been a lot of media coverage

28:47

of, of forgiving debt, what happens is

28:49

that you're signaling

28:51

to students and families that

28:53

higher education isn't worth it.

28:56

Like you shouldn't borrow to

28:58

go pursue a degree because

29:00

it's just not going to pay off for you.

29:03

And so it's sort of on its face,

29:05

the debt cancellation conversation actually

29:07

undermines the,

29:10

access to higher education conversation.

29:14

Similarly, when, you know, Republicans

29:16

just want to cap loans without addressing.

29:19

Costs. Well, that's certainly going to

29:21

cut off access as as well.

29:23

So you think policymakers

29:26

really need to figure out is,

29:29

Were we even to be able to hit some sort

29:31

of like, boop, magic button that's just

29:33

like, that someone has somewhere that's like, the

29:35

debt is forgiven. I mean,

29:37

we would also need a button that was like, boop, and

29:40

now everything's affordable for

29:41

Right, exactly.

29:44

so we really need to grapple with like, how do

29:46

we answer that question? In many ways,

29:48

it's like the questions are disassociated

29:51

when they have to be reassociated. So

29:54

how do we make higher education? More

29:56

affordable. And when we do make higher education

29:59

more affordable, how do we make it more accountable?

30:02

there's a lot of movements to make college

30:04

free. And,

30:08

that's a very challenging policy,

30:10

right? But a lot of states are putting these policies

30:13

into place and promise programs and all

30:15

sorts of things. But how can we get the state

30:17

and federal government come to

30:19

the table and to help fund higher

30:21

education together? But then

30:24

If we do that, and that's really what will change

30:26

the equation, how do we hold states

30:28

accountable to maintain their investment,

30:31

and how do we hold institutions

30:33

accountable for that investment as

30:35

well to make sure, as we were talking

30:38

about, that students are graduating, at

30:40

least making more than a high school graduate

30:43

would have made institutions

30:45

accountable? aren't then suddenly leveraging

30:47

their own financial aid dollars

30:49

like we see the elite institutions do.

30:52

They'll literally figure out

30:54

ways to offer their own merit aid

30:56

while using federal aid

30:58

to offer different types of financial aid

31:00

packages to different types of students. So, you

31:02

know, how do we hold institutions accountable

31:05

for maintaining that affordability for students

31:07

that need them most? those

31:10

are really the, the, the big.

31:13

Questions and then I would say overall, another

31:15

big one that that that policymakers have to grapple

31:17

with is how do we promote the dismantling

31:20

of structural structural racism?

31:23

In The ways in which our higher education is

31:26

resourced and where institutions

31:28

land, like, we know, for example,

31:30

that HBCUs have been chronically

31:32

underfunded. We know

31:35

that, like, I think it's a majority

31:37

or most community colleges are Hispanic

31:40

serving institutions at this point, so, and

31:42

they tend to be very under resourced. So,

31:44

we tend to throw so much money.

31:48

States particularly in their subsidy

31:50

models to,

31:52

you know, flagship wealthy

31:54

institutions when really the whole

31:57

equation needs to change so that we

31:59

are providing pathways

32:01

for the lowest income

32:04

students so that they do have an opportunity

32:06

to get the credential that they want to

32:09

get that will give them the best labor market

32:11

return.

32:12

So let me ask you one final

32:14

question Rachel as we begin to close We've

32:17

talked about what's going on what's happened

32:20

in the past Let's talk about

32:23

the new year. As you think

32:25

about 2024, what excites

32:27

you the most about the

32:29

work that New America is

32:31

diving into?

32:32

I It's funny because it's the

32:34

end of the year. So I'm just like trying to get

32:36

a bunch of stuff done as I'm sure everybody else

32:38

is trying to get a bunch of stuff. It's such a stressful time.

32:41

But I think there's a couple things. One,

32:43

we're going to continue to build our And

32:46

I say this because a

32:48

lot of people are like, they don't mention

32:51

like the teamwork that goes into policy

32:53

work. So I firmly believe that

32:55

ego is the enemy of good policy

32:57

work. And so it's really dependent

33:00

on the people that you work with

33:02

and the content flows from that. So

33:05

really building up our team in the new year. We

33:07

have someone new joining us in

33:09

January, which is going to be exciting.

33:13

also Content wise,

33:15

I am really interested

33:18

in keeping an eye on what's going on with short

33:20

term Pell, continuing

33:22

to be one of the lonely voices

33:24

that's like, hey, hold on, wait a second, this

33:26

is perhaps, like, not the, the

33:29

best way forward, or how can this be

33:31

a better way for forward. doing

33:34

a lot of work with some of my colleagues

33:36

on cosmetology programs. How

33:38

could we better structure cosmetology?

33:40

If anybody's looked at the gainful employment data

33:43

on cosmetology, it's really bad.

33:46

And so trying to figure out, like, how

33:48

can we make that better and more friendly.

33:52

then I also do a lot of work on, on

33:55

Again, because I just feel at my heart

33:57

and core, I'm a consumer protection advocate

33:59

on financial aid, award letters,

34:02

offers, packages. They're very confusing

34:04

to navigate right now for students and families.

34:08

they don't include cost information. they

34:10

like combine grants, loans and,

34:13

and work study, making it seem that students

34:15

have like a full ride when they really don't.

34:17

And it's just, there's no other,

34:19

there's no other, policy

34:23

financial product that I can think of that's as

34:25

expensive as higher education that doesn't have

34:28

a common disclosure of what

34:30

the price and aid is. So, we've

34:32

really been advocating for financial

34:34

aid offer reform. There's a great

34:37

legislation called the Understanding the True Cost of College

34:39

Act that would look to make

34:42

it, make financial aid offers much

34:44

more decipherable by students and

34:46

families. So looking

34:48

to, to continue the, the drumbeat on,

34:50

on that work in the new year because that's

34:53

another one that has bipartisan support.

34:55

So again, there's few,

34:57

like there's few things with bipartisan support.

34:59

So what does have bipartisan support? We'll

35:02

see if it can get over the, the

35:04

finish line in this Congress. So I, I have some,

35:06

some hope there.

35:08

Great. Well, listen, I

35:10

really appreciate you taking some time to,

35:12

to talk with me and, and

35:15

uh, give your, your thoughts and perspective about

35:17

what's going on. Really appreciate the

35:19

work that you're leading there at New America

35:21

and the work in general that New America has done for

35:24

higher education policy throughout

35:26

the last several years. So, Rachel,

35:29

thanks for being with us and

35:31

hope you enjoyed your time here on The Rant.

35:34

Yeah, this was great. Thanks for having me again.

35:37

All right, everyone. Thanks for joining me here on the

35:39

rant. If you enjoyed this episode, hit the like button.

35:42

Let me know your thoughts about

35:44

the conversation that Rachel and I just had,

35:46

particularly if you have thoughts about short term pill.

35:48

I know we'll be talking about this more and more over

35:50

the next couple of months. To hear

35:52

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