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1:24

is Bill Simmons podcast. You'll see him on The

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Rewatchables. You'll even see him on The

1:28

Big Picture. There's guys everywhere on

1:31

the network. Van Lathan, what's good, bro? What

1:34

is up, Woz? What

1:37

kind of art guy are you? Look what's

1:39

up. Look what's behind Woz. So

1:43

this piece behind me,

1:45

on my hike, in

1:48

front of one of the rich people houses

1:50

where I work out at in my neighborhood,

1:53

they had like four paintings just out,

1:55

like for anybody to take them. So

1:58

I threw this one out. in my car

2:00

and just took it to my crib. Did

2:03

you have it appraised? I have

2:05

not had it appraised, no. Oh my God,

2:07

Woz. Mia Woz going to Paris. Mia

2:09

Woz going to Paris. The picture that

2:12

Woz got behind right now is worth five.

2:14

I can look at it and say it was worth five pairs. Mia

2:17

Woz going to Paris. That's

2:20

a buddy cop movie,

2:22

a buddy movie that they would love to make.

2:25

Two black Negroes.

2:28

One of them finds an expensive picture, and then

2:30

we go on a European vacation. I'm going to

2:32

assume this joint is a replica of something, because

2:34

I don't think these folks would have just left

2:36

it out like that. But yeah, I

2:39

thought it was cool. I enjoyed it. And

2:42

so I threw it up there, man. But

2:44

yo, today we're on the

2:46

way back machine celebrating the 20th

2:48

episode of one of the most

2:50

notorious, the 20th year, excuse me,

2:52

of one of the most notorious

2:54

episodes of The Sopranos. That's

2:58

long term parking, man. This thing

3:00

dropped May 23, 2004. Just

3:05

crazy. Who was Van back

3:08

on this day? May 23, 2004? So

3:12

still in Baton Rouge. I had not yet moved

3:14

to Los Angeles. Still in Baton Rouge, right? I

3:18

was so deep into The Sopranos.

3:20

Wow. And my

3:22

palate, as far as television, was just

3:25

changing, because Sopranos and

3:27

The Wire were making me

3:29

look at TV in a whole different way.

3:32

The first show that I really latched

3:34

onto that I would say elevated

3:38

my expectation for episodic

3:41

art probably was The Sopranos. I had

3:43

loved television shows before. Obviously, we watched a

3:45

bunch of sitcoms growing up. OZ

3:47

had been around. A bunch of shows

3:49

had come through. Sex and the City had come through a

3:51

little bit. And I like to get my carry on every

3:53

now and again. But

3:56

I was somebody that was creating

3:59

my art. artistic

4:01

palette at 24

4:03

had just got out of college and I was

4:05

in the middle of loving the Sopranos, bro. Man,

4:08

it's so interesting to hear you say that,

4:10

to jump right in there, because I was

4:12

going to ask you if you were somebody

4:14

who watched the Sopranos when it originally aired.

4:17

I was not somebody

4:19

who watched it when it originally aired. I definitely

4:21

watched it while you're in real time. And

4:24

for related reasons, by the way, I went

4:26

to a high school in Queens called

4:28

St. Francis Prep. That was

4:30

predominantly white. And as you can imagine, because it's

4:33

New York City, a lot of Italian

4:35

kids in my school, and

4:37

they absolutely worshiped the show.

4:41

And for me, the way they loved

4:43

this show, Van, I assumed that you

4:45

had to be Italian to enjoy it.

4:47

And so that's why I just ignored it,

4:49

honestly, in high school. I was like, I

4:51

don't think that's something that I can enjoy

4:53

because these kids, every single

4:56

Monday after an episode aired, my classmates,

4:58

they were going nuts dissecting the episodes.

5:00

And again, I just assumed I was

5:02

like, yo, this is shit that white

5:04

people went into. And so I

5:06

ignored it until I want

5:08

to say, man, I would say I didn't watch

5:11

the Sopranos until probably like 2011. I

5:16

watched the Sopranos on demand

5:19

on HBO, whatever the

5:21

streaming service before Max was called out.

5:25

HBO now and obviously

5:27

fell in love with it. It's vaulted up

5:29

my top. It's at the top of my

5:31

rankings for TV shows because of all of

5:33

the things that you said, just

5:35

the comedy, just the writing,

5:38

the storytelling, the themes that

5:40

they touch on, et cetera,

5:43

et cetera. Incredible. And

5:46

the reason why I was hyped to do this episode is because

5:48

I think a lot of the

5:50

things that the Sopranos are about, the themes that

5:52

the show hits on are

5:54

just magnified in this

5:56

episode, particularly like. If

6:00

you've ever listened to or watched

6:02

or read a David Chase interview

6:04

after the show aired, just

6:07

him trying to explain like,

6:09

yo, we're not glorifying this thing.

6:12

We're not turning these people into heroes.

6:15

We're trying to explain to you like these

6:17

people are sociopaths and people

6:19

that you should not be rooting for.

6:22

And in fact, at every single turn,

6:24

we tried to indict the audience for

6:26

their love of these characters. It's like,

6:28

episode, my God. And

6:30

this isn't like the mission statement for

6:32

that thesis. It's like, wow. Yeah.

6:36

The Sopranos, really well said. The Sopranos

6:38

for me was at the

6:42

point that the show, that I got into

6:44

the show, I think the show premieres in

6:46

99, if I remember correctly. I

6:49

am a freshman in college

6:52

and the way

6:54

the mafia is being

6:56

positioned in pop

6:59

culture is different. Soprano comes around, the

7:01

Sopranos come around, around

7:03

the same time as Analyze This and everybody

7:06

talks about this. Analyze This is a comedy,

7:08

right? They actually referenced that in the pilot

7:10

of the Sopranos. And

7:13

Sopranos is a deeper look into the psyche

7:15

of somebody that will be

7:17

running a crew that will be on his way

7:20

up the mafia ladder. Now prior to this, the

7:23

idea of family and connection in the mafia

7:25

was looked at probably

7:27

most robustly in the Godfather, but

7:30

almost like a

7:34

royal family, almost in

7:36

the sense that there is a king, there

7:39

are princes, there

7:41

is subterfuge and espionage that

7:43

goes on at court

7:46

if you're talking about the Corleones.

7:48

It wasn't as

7:51

homey, as intimate,

7:53

it wasn't as messy. Of course there was betrayal

7:55

and all that other stuff, but it wasn't nothing

7:58

you could really glom onto because they seemed. to

8:00

like the tutors or someone like that. Around

8:04

this time, the mafia was just

8:06

weak enough to where a robust

8:08

examination of the humanities, the humanity

8:11

of the players involved was

8:13

appropriate, right? Not

8:16

like how powerful is Gotti

8:18

or Gravano or Casalano, like

8:20

how weak are they? A

8:23

different question. Now how powerful

8:25

are they? How weak are they? Like

8:27

what are

8:29

their foibles? What are their frailties?

8:31

Tony has a panic

8:34

disorder. He's going to the doctor. He's

8:39

got a soft spot for his son who

8:41

he can't rear as hard as what he

8:43

was reared. He's

8:45

got all these peccadillos that make them

8:48

make bad decisions. He's got

8:50

connections to people. He's

8:52

got a soft spot. Like how weak is the boss?

8:54

Now how strong is he? How weak is he? That's

8:57

what drew me to the show. At a

8:59

time where I was starting to look

9:01

at my own dad and other people

9:03

and starting to see them for who

9:05

they really were. So automatically

9:08

I'm into the show. By the time we

9:10

get to season four, the show had completely

9:12

transformed. Obviously you know, the show had gone

9:14

from a more intimate portrayal of that to

9:17

the highest of high prestige shows. This particular

9:19

episode is about all of that stuff that

9:21

you're talking about. It's about

9:23

reassessing family. It's about losing

9:25

family. It's about stakes. It's

9:28

about existential questions that you'd have

9:30

to ask about like negotiating

9:33

what kind of life you

9:35

want to lead and

9:37

who you want to lead that life with. Like

9:41

all wrapped up in a big cannoli

9:44

of family dysfunction and

9:47

deep, deep, deep resentment and retribution for some

9:50

of the characters. It's one of the

9:52

most perfect, one of the

9:54

most dramatic episodes of television ever created. So

9:56

as I mentioned, man growing up in

9:58

Queens, how I did. to the schools

10:00

that I did, my

10:02

proximity to Italian culture, you

10:06

know, it definitely shaded, especially when

10:09

I got deeply into the show,

10:12

my view on things like, for instance,

10:15

all of the things you talk about when

10:17

you talk about stuff like the Godfather and

10:19

Goodfellas and that kind of thing, like the

10:21

glamorization of the mafia in

10:23

America, particularly the quote unquote five

10:25

families in New York, like that

10:27

did seem like something completely foreign

10:29

to my own existence, you

10:32

know, in New York City, like the idea

10:34

that like what they were doing seemed like

10:36

might as well have been happening on another

10:38

planet. However, in high school, because there was a

10:43

lot of intermingling between us and

10:45

the Italian kids and the Irish kids and the Greek kids

10:47

and all of that, oftentimes you

10:50

might go to a house party and

10:52

you might need a kid who doesn't go to

10:54

your school but lives in the neighborhood of somebody

10:57

that you go to school with and he's at the

11:00

same party and they'd be like, yo, such and such

11:02

is, you know, not that he's

11:04

some maid guy or blah, blah, blah, but

11:06

he's got some kind of connection to that

11:08

thing. Uncle, cousin, whatever. Right,

11:11

right. And in fact, there's this, there's

11:13

this dude that I met, his

11:16

name was Fat Nick, not making it up,

11:18

his name was Fat Nick. And so I

11:20

met him, partied with him, not like we

11:23

became cool and nothing like that, but like

11:25

I met this kid who I want to

11:27

say two or three years after I graduated

11:29

high school was arrested for beating

11:31

the shit out of some black dude in

11:33

Howard Beach on what people

11:36

described as like a racialized crime. He

11:38

claimed that the kid was trying to

11:41

break into cars and he beat the

11:43

dude, then they paralyzed the

11:45

kid with a bat.

11:47

I'd met that dude before who basically

11:49

performed the fucking lynching in

11:51

Howard Beach, right? And so once I

11:53

start watching the Sopranos, like you

11:56

sort of, I can sort of

11:58

make the one-to-one connection of like, Just like

12:00

in our neighborhoods, there were certain people that people

12:02

whisper about like, yo, such and such is doing,

12:05

he's a part of this crew that does, essentially

12:08

does crimes. Like you've sort of learned

12:10

like in white New York, in white

12:12

working class New York, that's their

12:14

version of that shit, right? Except

12:16

they just got movies made of it. So

12:18

now, you know, you watch the Sopranos and

12:20

they get a little bit more intimate about

12:22

the inner workings of the shit and they

12:24

just bring it, you know, full circle, basically.

12:26

Right. Let

12:29

me ask you something about this episode.

12:31

Would you categorize this episode as

12:33

the episode where Adriana dies? Yes.

12:38

You think of all the storylines that are

12:40

running. That's

12:42

the big, because

12:44

I was thinking about this, obviously, that's

12:47

the headline, right? This is

12:49

the episode, but it's also the episode

12:51

where Johnny SAC is so consequential, where

12:53

Johnny becomes the king of New York.

12:56

Where Tony tells on the fuck off,

12:58

where it can

13:00

also be looked at as the

13:02

episode where Chris dimes Adriana out.

13:04

Yes. Obviously, it's the episode where

13:07

Adriana dies, but so much that

13:10

is super important to the

13:12

series happens in this episode.

13:14

Yes. You are like, if

13:17

you're looking at the show

13:19

outline, Adriana, who's basically a bit

13:21

player in the series, if we're

13:23

being honest, I don't

13:26

think her death moves

13:29

the quote unquote story or

13:31

plot forward in any

13:33

meaningful direction for the main

13:35

characters. Like

13:37

I think Christopher and Tony's relationship was

13:40

always headed in a certain direction. But

13:43

this was a, but you're right. But

13:45

this was the, just

13:48

real quick, because this is called gentle

13:50

pushback. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let me tell

13:52

you why I disagree a little bit. I caught

13:54

something here. I'd

14:00

never caught before. Did you watch the Many Saints

14:02

of Newark? I did. Okay,

14:05

so at the beginning of the Many Saints of Newark, and

14:08

one of the most fascinating narrative choices

14:11

that I think I've ever seen, they

14:13

choose to have Montesante narrate

14:15

the movie from the crate,

14:18

right? Like he's in

14:21

hell. And... And...

14:25

You know, but they're not weird, they didn't...

14:27

So in hell, and the cameras

14:30

navigating itself through the graveyard, and they're

14:32

headed to the plot where

14:36

he's buried, and he talks a

14:38

little bit about it, and he says Tony

14:40

Soprano, the man who I went to hell for. Yes.

14:44

That originates in this episode,

14:46

where he says, that's

14:49

the man I'm going to go to

14:51

hell for, right? I

14:54

think the beginning of Christopher's

14:57

trajectory to hell is

14:59

with the murder of Adriana. I

15:02

think that's the moment he

15:04

had one last shot at,

15:07

ostensibly, humanity. The

15:11

moment where he sees the guy, the guy

15:14

with the mullet, and

15:16

the boy, Adrian Brody. Yeah. The

15:20

moment that he sees him, that

15:22

choice is Faustian. Yeah. Because

15:25

it literally is, oh my God,

15:28

I could

15:31

go and have a family and stuff.

15:33

He's standing in front of a Hummer. That's

15:36

the lifestyle. He's

15:39

already sold his soul, but this

15:41

is his last chance to return it, right?

15:43

To get a return on it. He'd have to

15:46

leave, but if he does that, that's

15:48

the life. He's taken a life that's

15:50

purer in emotion and

15:52

in, I guess, action,

15:55

but disgusting to him in

15:58

terms of lifestyle. And he chose

16:01

to go with the devil, who in

16:03

this case was Tony Soprano, and she

16:05

was the sacrifice. And so when I

16:07

look at it, I think it was

16:09

incredibly important to Tony's and

16:11

Christopher's relationship. Am I reading it wrong?

16:14

No, I think you're right to say

16:16

that. I don't even disagree with that. I think

16:18

the way that I'm looking at it is

16:21

that having watched the

16:23

series over and over at this point,

16:25

right? And having developed

16:28

an emotional attachment to the character,

16:31

I think because we're doing

16:33

this in hindsight, we

16:36

might be elevating the

16:38

importance of Adriana in

16:42

the story because we loved her character. However,

16:44

I bet you people watching it in real

16:46

time was not like, oh fuck, Tony and

16:49

Silvio, I don't fuck with them anymore because

16:51

they did this thing. It's probably like,

16:53

yo, she snitched, she had to go. This

16:55

is how the story goes. Right? And that's

16:58

why- After they killed Pussy, it

17:00

didn't really matter. They could kill anybody. The

17:05

Pussy death was so crazy. After they

17:07

killed Pussy, you realized that if you

17:09

fuck up, it's

17:13

the mafia. You know what I mean? Yeah. And

17:15

so that's what I mean by that. It's not

17:17

like you're going to turn around and turn on

17:19

Tony, but I think that the

17:21

callousness with which they treat her and

17:23

they do her, man, is so like

17:25

the way in the way that the

17:28

episode depicts it is happening and boom,

17:30

boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They

17:32

just said, fuck it, she got to go. And

17:35

everybody just turns on a dime.

17:37

A person that we thought they

17:39

cared about. It's crazy. So I

17:41

do want to get into some of the

17:43

things you mentioned as happening in the episode.

17:47

So when we go into the episode,

17:49

Tony and Karma are still separated because

17:51

of Tony's infidelities. He bit

17:53

that scene where he basically won't even

17:55

capitulate to even the idea that he

17:58

would stop being a- a

18:00

womanizer, he was just like, look, I'll try

18:02

to do my best to not make it

18:04

public, but like, you know, a

18:06

dog is gonna bark essentially. It's

18:10

what he says to Carmella. Tony

18:12

B is still on the lam, and

18:15

obviously they're putting pressure on Tony

18:17

Soprano to find him. My

18:21

favorite, one of my favorite

18:23

scenes of this episode again, that

18:26

they just do these great things about explaining

18:28

to you the characters, and

18:31

what they ultimately give a damn about in the

18:33

end, is the conversation

18:35

between Carm and Tony, where

18:37

she's basically like, you could come back to the

18:39

crib, if you

18:42

buy me a spec house for 600K, that

18:44

was her soul. And that was the deal. That

18:49

was her soul. It was just

18:52

like, any idea that Carm, like,

18:55

had some higher level

18:58

of morality, or principles,

19:00

or that she was

19:03

somehow disconnected from

19:06

Tony's life and all this blood money,

19:08

like, gets shattered, which she just, she

19:10

just cuts a deal over dinner to

19:13

take this dude back for some bread. Wow.

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19:52

know what's interesting?

19:59

Love the choices. that were made in this episode, right?

20:02

Do you know who literally makes

20:04

the only choice that's based around family?

20:08

Tony. Yeah,

20:10

that's fair. The only

20:12

person who chooses family, Tony

20:14

choosing to come home is not family, he's

20:16

choosing comfort, right? I mean,

20:18

he misses being at home, but he doesn't

20:21

want to get divorced. He

20:23

doesn't want there to be forensic accounting

20:26

done on his deal, he's

20:28

Italian. That's a narcissistic choice.

20:31

The only person that makes a choice in

20:34

there that's about

20:36

family, that's about emotion is

20:38

Tony. He chooses, I

20:40

mean, it's our choice, he chooses to not

20:42

hand over Tony

20:45

B to Johnny Sack and Phil

20:48

and New York. He made that choice of

20:50

emotion because he loved him. He made a

20:52

choice that essentially Christopher

20:55

couldn't make. It's not the same choice, right?

20:58

Christopher had a lot more riding on it, but Tony was like,

21:00

no, that's the way I'm supposed to do

21:02

something to mafia. I'm supposed to hand them over. He

21:04

went crazy. You see Tony thinking about their

21:07

relationship

21:10

in their past. He realizes the guy still has

21:12

to go. So the choice is

21:15

somewhat cynical, but at the same time,

21:17

he makes a decision that's based off how much he

21:19

loves someone, that he's not going to let that person

21:21

be tortured. You can

21:23

make an argument that maybe part of

21:25

it was hubris and he didn't want

21:27

to capitulate to Johnny Sack, but at

21:29

the same time, I mean, I get

21:32

that. Johnny Sack in that, he does

21:34

a great job in that scene of

21:36

being the most smug bastard I've

21:38

ever encountered in my life,

21:41

bro. Like when he's

21:43

like, this is undignified. I'm like,

21:45

yo, this guy is like the

21:47

day after you get your new promotion,

21:50

bro, you acting brand new? Like

21:52

literally the next day, but

21:55

you didn't even ease into it. Like you

21:57

just like, yeah, no, undignified.

21:59

Tony like you're another really now

22:02

another reason why the show is so

22:06

good that moment is

22:08

setting you up to say goodbye to

22:10

Johnny sack Johnny like Johnny sack

22:12

was a mediator he was a friend you

22:15

know our people but right away Johnny sack

22:17

gets the big seat and you start to

22:19

see the cracks in who he is but

22:21

just think about the density of the story

22:24

here think about even what Adriana goes through

22:26

this episode is really about her and

22:28

it's really about her just running

22:31

out of options you feel

22:33

so badly for her um

22:36

when I first saw it I'll be honest

22:38

with you I was shocked that they not

22:41

shocked that they got rid of the character I thought

22:44

that her

22:46

I thought

22:48

that her tryst if you

22:50

would call it or her involvement with the

22:52

government would end up

22:54

costing somebody else their life hmm

22:58

I thought she would be an unwitting

23:00

accomplice accomplice to somebody else getting killed

23:02

I did not think they would kill

23:05

her because I at that

23:07

time wondered what would happen to Christopher if

23:10

Adriana wasn't wasn't around she seemed to

23:12

be his last thread

23:14

his his last link to

23:17

humanity Christopher always was

23:20

not quite Tony

23:22

but not quite AJ he

23:25

wasn't quite to Tony was and he

23:28

wasn't quite as bumbling as weak as AJ was

23:30

but he is somewhere

23:34

in the middle of of

23:37

that night he's called old just enough

23:40

to be a little shit but

23:43

he's just hard enough and just in the

23:45

life enough to be a killer and

23:47

a criminal just like the rest of the people in this

23:49

family yeah the scene

23:52

the scene where the agents man basically

23:54

put the put the screws to age

23:57

and they basically explained to her like yo We're

24:00

done tap dancing with you. You got to get

24:02

off the pot at this point." When

24:05

she tries to lie and then

24:08

ultimately comes clean and she's

24:10

so obviously out of her depth,

24:12

man, that's what I came

24:15

away from. I'm like, man, she was in

24:17

over her head from the

24:19

beginning. Part of it, I

24:21

do blame on Christopher. Just the idea

24:23

that the first thing you don't drill

24:25

into your woman is as

24:27

soon as the cop try to talk to you, get a lawyer. Don't

24:31

talk to these people, get a lawyer, and

24:34

maybe you'll get a... Wow.

24:36

Drill into your woman? Wow.

24:39

What kind of podcast is this,

24:41

bro? What we red pillin'? I'm

24:43

talking about a mafia... I'm talking

24:46

about a mafia worker, I'm

24:52

not talking about a dentist.

24:54

She's a woman. Wazni Tay.

24:56

That's his new nickname, Wazni

24:58

Tay. Both

25:06

ways, that's bad. They gonna put

25:08

a red pill on me. No, no, no,

25:10

no. I'm just saying, as

25:13

a mafia worker, this feels like this

25:15

is one of the central tenets of

25:17

what y'all do. It's

25:19

like you cannot talk to police

25:22

under any circumstances. Just

25:24

the idea that this isn't like a

25:26

core tenet of their relationship. To

25:29

me, that seems like a Christopher failing, but

25:31

again, two people,

25:33

codependent, drug-addicted. It's

25:37

easy to see how it spirals,

25:39

but definitely my heart broke for her in

25:41

that room with those detectives when

25:45

she ultimately decides like, all right, I'm gonna

25:47

try to get Christopher to flip. And another

25:49

thing that I love about the Sopranos, again,

25:52

The Wire, another show that pioneered

25:54

this, the cops

25:56

are not good guys. We're

25:59

not doing a good guys versus bad guys,

26:01

cops and robbers story. The

26:03

feds come off so horribly

26:06

in this whole episode, just the

26:09

way that they could just discard of this woman.

26:11

You see how they move on to the next

26:13

case. It's like, huh, she's dead. Did

26:15

we get that guy on a terrorism beat? Like

26:19

the way they just seamlessly moved on

26:21

from her was just like, man,

26:23

that the cops don't come off looking right either

26:25

in this. They think of her.

26:27

She's not a person. She's

26:30

somebody that is a means to

26:32

an end. And

26:37

in the past, and this is your point

26:39

about the Sopranos and the Wire

26:41

so good. In the past, cops

26:44

would be lionized in

26:46

media as people who had this unfailing

26:49

sense of right and wrong and

26:52

who just wanted to do what was right for the

26:54

community and for America. You can't

26:56

give me enough money. I'm

26:59

incorruptible. This is wrong,

27:01

and I'm going to stop it. Now, the

27:03

cops that we're the feds that we're looking at

27:05

in the Sopranos, we don't necessarily see

27:07

them on the take, but we do see

27:09

them being ruthlessly career-minded.

27:12

Yes. You

27:14

don't get at any

27:17

point in this episode that they

27:19

are out to clean

27:22

up the streets of New Jersey. Exactly.

27:25

They are obsessed

27:27

in the same way that their

27:29

counterparts are obsessed with

27:31

winning and mission accomplishment. And therefore,

27:34

anyone who stands in the way

27:36

of that, they'll squash. And

27:39

the reason why you feel that way about them is

27:41

because they have a very clear opportunity

27:43

to treat her like a human being, and they just

27:45

never do. And

27:47

even the woman that they use to

27:49

get in with Adriana in

27:54

the first place, right, when Adriana

27:57

is taken down, she brings up the fact

27:59

that... She talks about the little people

28:01

that Adriana wants to have children. All

28:05

this information, all her

28:07

weaknesses, all her vulnerabilities are

28:10

weaponized against her so that they

28:12

can get Tony Soprano. And

28:15

she dies and it's their

28:18

fucking fault. Is

28:20

it their fault that she passed away?

28:22

Yeah. I mean, obviously

28:25

the killers get their blame too,

28:27

but the callousness, the carelessness. I'll

28:30

put you like this real quick. The

28:33

killers get the blame. I'll put you like

28:35

this. I don't

28:38

mean for this to sound weird. If I have a

28:40

pit bull, right? And

28:43

the pit bull is... Pit

28:47

bull, bah bah bah. Pit bull, pit bull, pit bull is an

28:49

aggressive dog. Sick

28:51

in the pit bull, the dog is a killer. The

28:54

dog is going to do what the dog is. Exactly.

28:57

Yup. They're like, still and Tony, they're

28:59

pit bulls. They're not supposed

29:01

to have any shred

29:04

of morality in this. The reason why I

29:06

lay the blame, you're right. But

29:08

the reason why I lay the blame as the fans,

29:10

because the fans are the people that are supposed to

29:12

care about people. Obviously

29:15

I'm in agreement with you. I think they

29:17

have a hand in the death of this

29:19

person. You go out of your way to

29:21

turn this person into your snitch, knowing what

29:24

the consequences for that action is. It's

29:26

not like they don't know that the mob

29:28

kills snitches. They go into

29:31

it knowing that this is what

29:33

they do to people that cooperate with the feds

29:36

and just the carelessness was tough. Man,

29:40

definitely got to talk about the

29:43

scene where she ultimately tries to talk

29:46

Christopher... She confesses to Christopher that

29:48

the feds got their hooks into her. He

29:51

damn near kills her. This

29:55

thing is so intense and

29:59

just knocks me... off of my feet every

30:01

single time. Obviously, there's the

30:03

visceral reaction you have to

30:05

aid the damn they're having the life choked

30:07

out of her. And then

30:09

actually caressing

30:11

this guy and comforting him

30:14

after he did that. But

30:17

also the freaking super-duper

30:19

close-ups on

30:21

Michael Imperioli when he's getting the

30:23

news dude. It's amongst

30:26

the best acting in the... It's

30:29

one of the best... It's his best acted

30:31

scene in the whole

30:33

series. I'm not talking about Chris where he's...

30:35

Oh, I'm sorry. I cut your wisdom brother.

30:37

Go ahead. My bad. No,

30:40

no, no, no. That's what I wanted to

30:42

say. Like the close-ups of him, like he's

30:44

dying. It

30:46

literally... You're watching this guy die

30:48

as she's explaining to him all the things

30:50

that have happened. He's

30:53

just like, oh my goodness. Like, we're

30:55

going to go to jail or no, we're going to get

30:57

killed. Oh no, like Tony's in it. Oh

31:00

shit. Like he's thinking about the whole thing

31:02

is done. This is the

31:04

thing about that. That

31:09

what is happening is

31:11

his worst fear. Not...

31:16

Okay. Christopher is

31:18

so indoctrinated, right? Like

31:22

he's so indoctrinated. He is

31:24

so mafiosoed out

31:27

that his worst fear isn't

31:29

being killed. That can happen anytime. His

31:33

worst fear isn't killing someone.

31:36

That can happen anytime it has happened. His

31:39

worst fear isn't snitching. That's

31:41

never going to happen. His

31:43

worst fear is

31:46

what he's going through right

31:48

now. That she

31:51

has been compromised. That it's coming from

31:53

that close to him. That

31:56

it's going to be his fault that

31:58

everybody goes down. being

32:00

a rat, him being

32:02

involved in that. And what

32:05

you see on Michael Imperiali's face

32:07

at first is enraged. It's

32:10

legitimately, in my

32:12

opinion, legitimately, I know that

32:14

we saw him beg for his life one time,

32:17

it's legitimately the worst

32:19

fear that we've seen

32:22

on Chris for the entire day.

32:25

What the fuck

32:27

is happening? Like

32:30

what are you kidding me? I

32:33

simply cannot believe that.

32:36

It's some of the best acting in

32:38

the entire show. It really is without

32:40

saying anything. And to speak

32:42

to that, Dre De Matteo and

32:44

Michael Imperiali won the Emmy. This

32:47

was for their acting in this

32:49

episode. This was their Emmy submission and

32:51

they ended up winning. Terrence Winter ended

32:54

up also winning the Emmy for his

32:56

writing on the episode. They won the

32:58

best drama series and all of

33:01

that for this season, probably

33:03

in large part based on just

33:05

the excellence of this episode. The

33:08

scene is just, it's a masterpiece,

33:10

a masterclass. Dre De Matteo can't say

33:13

enough like, she

33:15

looked dead, bro. She

33:17

looked like she freaking died. That

33:19

was crazy. Just

33:22

an incredible. Next thing I wanted to

33:25

sort of, what did you think about

33:27

the decision to... One, hold on, let's

33:29

set that up. The

33:32

sleight of hand that they do where

33:35

we think Aide is driving her own car

33:38

off to some far place, but

33:40

then we learn it's just a daydream

33:43

and she's the passenger in Silvio's

33:45

car. And what do

33:48

you think of the decision to make Silvio be

33:50

the one that do it? Who oftentimes,

33:52

like he's playing the voice of

33:54

reason. He's talking Tony down out

33:56

of doing the most violent, crazy

33:58

shit. So is

34:01

basically like One

34:03

of the good ones is so much as these

34:05

cats can be good on the show and

34:07

the decision to make him kill aid jeez,

34:11

so It's

34:15

remarkable for a couple of reasons number one

34:18

Everybody in there so in

34:20

the Sopranos gets their opportunity to be a

34:22

demon like every single person Right,

34:25

you know that these guys have to put in work to get where

34:27

they are. Yeah, and There's

34:30

not one of them that

34:32

gets away without you seeing that side of

34:34

them The thing that

34:36

always gives me whenever I watch the scene is

34:40

when Sue Murders

34:42

Adriana he summons something inside of

34:45

him at

34:47

the end That like

34:49

he's calling her names and

34:51

he he's fucking this

34:56

It's not the way they kill pussy Which

34:59

is they're standing up and they they're

35:02

angry, but they're angry that he made

35:04

them do this It's

35:06

not that it's can't believe

35:09

it blah blah blah blah blah

35:11

you you boom, but boy. He's

35:13

mad He's pissed. It's sinister and

35:16

he also so you know that that

35:19

has been in him before you know That's

35:21

a part of who he is right call

35:23

it a C word as you take you

35:25

out of the car Exactly like it's it's

35:27

a it's it's a merciless Just

35:30

the slaying of someone like not even it

35:34

You wonder if he would ever even if he had

35:36

ever even known her the way he treats her right

35:38

um But

35:40

all that and the fact that when

35:42

I first saw this episode number one

35:45

when I first saw this episode I questioned whether

35:47

or not they would actually kill her right um I

35:51

kept waiting to be bailed out from it Like

35:54

when when when Christopher

35:57

does what doesn't with it Tony calls her I'm

36:00

thinking, well, maybe Chris really did

36:02

do this for a second. I know what's going to

36:04

happen. But I'm thinking maybe Chris really did do this.

36:06

And maybe they'll meet up. Maybe her and Tony will

36:09

meet up at the hospital. And there'll be some sort

36:11

of conversation. And A. Jonathan's character will get

36:13

sent to Italy. I don't know what's going to happen. But

36:15

I'm looking for the show to bail me out. You're looking

36:17

for an out, yeah. Right. Because

36:19

I know she has to die. And

36:21

they kept playing with it and playing with it and

36:24

playing with it until they made

36:26

you watch somebody that you related to

36:28

on the show for a while and

36:31

a serious piece of eye candy. Oh my god. I'm

36:33

sorry. That's who I am, guys. They

36:35

made you watch people still. Bill, by the

36:37

way, I recently went on Instagram today to

36:39

check up on it. It's still the case.

36:42

Yeah. She had some other endeavors that she's

36:44

embarked in recently that I've supported. But

36:46

I'm a fan. OK?

36:51

Oh! Oh! Like, I'm a fan. We

36:54

all have mercy. I didn't know we were going to

36:56

go there. But thank you. We don't

36:58

have to. OK. We don't have to. I'm just saying,

37:00

I'm a fan. Yeah. And

37:03

they just don't. And the show isn't

37:05

going to bail you out. Things

37:07

went wrong for her. And

37:10

she's got to go. And then to me,

37:14

so to your point, it

37:17

was a little respite from what

37:19

you knew had to happen, which

37:22

was the death of Adriana. The

37:24

death in the most unceremonious. Just

37:29

like anybody other, she's the victim of a

37:32

hit in the woods, just

37:36

regular. Just not even. They

37:38

didn't even. It was almost the way

37:40

Omar went, being shot in the head.

37:44

Omar didn't get a grand stare down with the

37:46

gun. Yeah, nah. A little kid killed him. A

37:49

little kid killed him, yeah. Office of Newport. So

37:53

obviously, AIDS death

37:55

is a big theme in the episode. I

37:57

wanted to get your thoughts on some of

37:59

the things your more memorable sopranos deaths

38:01

because when I was talking to Justin

38:04

about doing this episode and

38:07

that came up, it's obviously one

38:09

of the more gut

38:11

wrenching, just crazy deaths. The two that

38:13

came to my mind for different reasons,

38:17

Ralphie killing the stripper, because

38:19

it was such a heinous crime.

38:21

It was so fucking

38:24

evil. That

38:26

one sticks in my mind because watching it

38:28

was so difficult to watch. When

38:31

Tony ultimately ends up killing Ralphie,

38:34

it felt like vindication. Like, yeah,

38:36

he killed this fucking asshole. And

38:39

the other one that comes to mind

38:41

is Richie Aprille. I

38:43

was about to say that. That

38:46

was funny. That to me still

38:48

reigns as the most unexpected history

38:55

of the show. We didn't know what

38:57

was going to happen to Richie. I expected

38:59

that Tony might end up killing

39:02

Richie because sopranos does something sometimes to

39:05

where it's like, you watched

39:07

Star Trek back in the day? Yes.

39:10

So very funny

39:13

and famous scene in Boomerang

39:16

where Eddie Murphy's talking to Halle

39:19

Berry and he's talking about

39:21

Star Trek and he goes, okay, so if

39:23

I was, look who's going on this mission.

39:26

It's Kurt, Spock,

39:30

McCoy, and Yeoman Johnson. He

39:33

was like, if I was Yeoman Johnson, I

39:36

wouldn't go because who's

39:39

going to not make it back to the enterprise? It's

39:41

not going to be Kurt, Spock,

39:44

or McCoy. Yeoman Johnson is

39:46

going to die. And Eddie is talking

39:48

about it and it's very funny. What

39:51

the sopranos would do is give you

39:53

a season of Yeoman Johnson. Oh,

39:56

Pantiliano, Joey Paine. It's

40:00

coming on the show. Steve

40:03

Buscemi is coming on the show. Richie

40:05

Apprill is coming on the show. You know these

40:07

guys are gonna get killed. Yeah, yeah. Pretty soon

40:10

into their tenure, you're like, okay, this is not

40:12

gonna work out for the guys. One season, two

40:14

seasons, these guys are gone. Like, these

40:16

characters aren't gonna be around for the long

40:19

time. Tony needs enemies, and these guys will

40:21

probably get killed, especially with the fact that

40:23

their characters are so combustible, right? So,

40:27

with Richie, you knew that he would die, but you didn't

40:29

think it was gonna happen like that. Like,

40:32

I was like, shit. Like,

40:35

she boom, like, she just killed Richie. It's

40:37

the kind of thing that keeps you on

40:39

your toes as far as deaths in

40:42

the show that are the most

40:44

memorable. I agree with you when Ralphie

40:46

killed the stripper. The

40:49

death that hit me the most, even though everybody was

40:51

at war, and

40:54

there was a target on his back was Bobby Bacalah.

40:56

Bobby Bacalah getting killed in

40:59

his train suit, like

41:01

in a conductor suit. Grimey. Like,

41:04

doing model, that one was one that

41:06

fucked with me. I did not wanna see

41:08

Bobby go, man. I'ma be real with you.

41:10

I did not wanna see Bobby go. So,

41:13

did you watch this episode before? Are you

41:15

just doing this on memory, or did you

41:17

watch it again? Nah,

41:19

I watched it again. Okay, so,

41:21

just to close it off,

41:23

like, upon rewatching

41:25

this, I wanna

41:28

know if anything like that you, like, don't

41:30

remember or whatever that stuck with you, what

41:32

stuck with me was

41:34

how Tony and Carmella,

41:38

when Tony moves back into the crib, they

41:40

both realize it's a farce. Like,

41:42

even, like- I couldn't

41:45

agree more. They, like, I'm like,

41:47

damn, watching it over, it's just like, they

41:49

both know this is

41:51

a performance, that their heart's not

41:54

into this actual relationship anymore. They're

41:56

just doing this family thing, but as

41:58

far as them, to, it's

42:01

not there. I don't

42:03

know if it's because

42:06

I'm older or

42:09

life or because I'm in a relationship that

42:12

I've been in a long time. By

42:14

far, that part of it was

42:17

the most

42:20

interesting to me right now.

42:22

This is the episode where Adriana dies. Boom.

42:25

That's going to happen. Watching her

42:28

go through that is gut wrenching. But

42:31

the scene where they're all sitting down and

42:34

AJ goes, this is weird.

42:36

Yes. Even AJ, the most

42:38

aloof, not in the moment

42:40

person on the show is like, yo, this

42:43

don't make no type of sense what y'all

42:46

doing right now. The

42:49

matter of fact way, especially when you know everything that

42:51

they have been through, that Tony just

42:54

negotiates his way back into the house.

42:57

What he's not going to do, what she doesn't

42:59

have to worry about. He is who he

43:01

is, but he's going to do it in a different way. How

43:03

transactional it is, is the word that I'm

43:06

looking for. That was fascinating

43:08

to me when I, on my

43:10

rewatch, like that part of it,

43:13

his conversations with Carmella, him gifting her

43:15

different things. When he brought the bags

43:18

in and he's like, yeah, AJ, like

43:20

I'm back. Like he realized there's no

43:22

grand, like, oh, Tony, nobody

43:25

ran and jumped into your arm. It was

43:27

very unceremonious.

43:30

It was what people

43:32

like even, um, even,

43:34

uh, I think it's

43:36

already says to him, he says, I'm

43:38

moving back in. I can't remember who says

43:40

to him, your kids are going to be very

43:42

happy. There was expected that there

43:44

would be some sort of joy, some sort

43:47

of joyous moment. Even, even

43:49

at the end, when, uh, you

43:52

know, we go back to the woods and you

43:54

think that they're going to show you Adriano's dead

43:56

body or where she's buried or something like that.

43:58

It's actually Tony and Carmella. walking

44:00

through the woods, there's

44:04

an odd symmetry there

44:06

between Adriana being

44:08

gone and any

44:10

sort of actual

44:13

feeling. Yeah, their relationship

44:15

is also dead. It's pretty much dead.

44:17

It's something new now, right? And

44:20

the spec house is a symbol of that. It's

44:23

like, this is what the relationship

44:25

is about. It's not the humanity

44:27

anymore. Anyway, just a

44:29

classic, obviously incredible episode. Twenty

44:31

years later, it holds

44:33

up. It's still funny. It's still

44:36

like, yo, dude, fill

44:39

me a Tardo, man. It's funny. We need

44:41

to talk about fill your Tardo at the

44:43

sit down. We need to talk about a

44:45

little car mine. It is

44:47

one of the densest episodes in

44:49

Soprano history. If Colin told me

44:52

a cocksucker. The episode has

44:54

everything. Obviously, if you listen to this,

44:57

you should go watch it. Just

45:00

incredible. Van, midnight boys,

45:02

higher learning, Oscars, everything

45:04

is happening. Cowboy hats.

45:06

He's doing all of

45:09

it. Obviously, check me out at a group

45:11

chat on the Ringer MBA and keep it

45:13

tuned to this feed. We got plenty of

45:15

stuff coming up for you guys soon on

45:17

the PressTvTV feed, man. We'll see you guys

45:19

next time. Bye.