0:47

Hey friends and welcome back to the Power in Motion

0:49

podcast. This week we're joined

0:51

by fellow coach Nicholas Salmon

0:53

who is is here to talk to

0:55

us all about weight neutral

0:58

fertility and the stigma that often

1:00

comes up to folks in larger

1:02

bodies as they're navigating the

1:04

fertility journey. Now,

1:06

before you click off, if this is not something that

1:09

you have ever experienced, I encourage

1:11

you to stick around because I think there's

1:13

insights in this episode that would be relevant

1:15

to us all, whether we're parents or not,

1:17

or whether we have ever struggled with fertility or

1:19

not. Now let me tell you a little bit about Nicola.

1:22

Nicola is the leading voice for

1:24

fat folks seeking fertility support,

1:26

bringing a unique, fat positive perspective

1:29

to her work as a fertility coach and author

1:32

of the groundbreaking book, Fertility and Fertility. fat

1:34

and fertile. She's a prominent figure

1:36

in the world of fat activism, using

1:38

her platform and expertise to challenge

1:40

the weight bias and stigmas

1:42

that exist within the fertility industry,

1:45

and empower those who are often marginalized

1:48

to take control of their reproductive

1:50

health with confidence and self assurance.

1:53

Through her innovative and evidence based approach,

1:55

she helps clients find their own path to

1:57

wellness, free from diets and

1:59

body shaming, and encourages them

2:01

to trust and believe in their ability to

2:03

conceive. With her expert guidance

2:06

and compassionate support, Nicola is changing

2:08

the way people approach fertility.

2:11

And in this episode, we talked about

2:13

all of those things. We talked about

2:16

how weight bias

2:18

and stigma Um, so I'm

2:20

going to talk a little bit about what affects folks in larger

2:22

bodies in both trying to access fertility

2:24

care and in

2:26

the risks and so called complications

2:29

that are often assigned to folks in larger bodies.

2:31

Nicola is a researcher at heart, so she

2:34

has really dug into all

2:36

of the studies that have been done

2:39

around fertility and especially

2:41

around weight and fertility

2:43

and she clears up

2:45

a lot of those myths. and misconceptions

2:48

and talks about the flaws in some of these studies,

2:50

which really boils down to people in larger

2:52

bodies often being left out. So

2:54

the data just simply doesn't exist. Nicola's

2:58

approach is so compassionate and so

3:00

unique and inside this episode

3:02

she shares her four step process

3:04

on how folks who exist

3:07

in larger bodies can support themselves

3:09

to get the fertility care

3:11

that they need and to start growing

3:14

their family right now,

3:16

if that's what they desire. It's

3:18

a really empowering,

3:20

heart touching episode.

3:23

I learned a lot myself and I know that you'll

3:25

find it informative and

3:27

enlightening, so please enjoy.

3:29

Hey Nicola. Welcome to the Power in Motion

3:31

podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here today

3:33

to talk about fertility and

3:35

how weight stigma enters into that

3:38

and what folks can do if they're on

3:40

that journey. So welcome.

3:41

Thank you. And thank you so much for thinking of

3:43

me. I am so glad that we get to reconnect.

3:46

Oh, me too. Me too. Yeah. Nicola and

3:48

I go way back. We were in a mastermind

3:51

together for, um, weight neutral

3:53

health professionals. So it's been a while since we chatted,

3:55

but I'm really glad to reconnect too. one

3:58

thing I have noticed in doing this show

4:00

and speaking to lots of people is that generally

4:02

speaking, we all have a personal experience

4:04

that leads us to doing the kind of work

4:07

that we're doing and you're nodding your head.

4:12

Would you, would you tell us a little bit about your journey

4:14

that brought you to be doing the work that you do now?

4:17

Oh, absolutely. And I think you're right. It's so true.

4:19

It's just, it's really what connects

4:21

you to the work, isn't it? So for

4:23

me, it goes way back. So this

4:25

was over 20 years ago now. I

4:28

was Diagnosed with a condition

4:30

called polycystic ovarian syndrome, or PCOS.

4:33

Now, it's quite common to hear it talked about

4:35

now, like, it's a condition that affects a lot

4:37

of people. But back when I was like

4:39

16 years old, we didn't really

4:42

have the internet, we didn't have many resources,

4:44

so I didn't really know what it was. All

4:46

I had was the information that the doctor gave

4:48

me, and that was that. It was like

4:50

a hormonal and metabolic condition that

4:53

I'd need to lose weight in order to, like,

4:55

manage it. Um, to regulate

4:57

my menstrual cycles, which was the main symptom I had,

4:59

was just to go on the pill, so the oral contraceptive pill,

5:02

and also I wouldn't be able to get pregnant. So,

5:05

a lot of information, not

5:07

a lot of helpful information to help me navigate

5:10

that at quite a, you know, a young age, a

5:12

tender age to be told big

5:14

news like that. Um, so,

5:17

yeah, I kind of grew up. With

5:19

this idea that my body was broken,

5:21

like, there was something wrong with me. I

5:24

had to make my body smaller in order to make it

5:26

better or to fix it in some way. And

5:28

also that, you know, I would likely never become

5:30

a parent. And because

5:33

of that diagnosis, because of that

5:35

condition, I grew

5:37

up with a massive interest in fertility

5:39

and hormones in menstrual cycles, um,

5:42

which led me to actually becoming

5:45

a qualified like fertility acupuncturist,

5:48

which was kind of my route into the fertility

5:50

world. So that was

5:52

in my like mid 20s that I was doing

5:54

that work and I,

5:58

it was only then that I really learned that what

6:00

the doctor said was actually a load of rubbish, like, just

6:03

because you're diagnosed with PCOS that doesn't mean

6:05

that you can't get pregnant. Obviously it impacts

6:08

things like ovulation, it impacts the

6:10

length of your menstrual cycles, it can impact other things

6:12

too, but it's definitely not

6:14

a, oh, this means you're never going to be

6:16

able to get pregnant. And actually for me,

6:19

When I met my husband and we were starting

6:21

to try to think about having a family,

6:24

um, we got pregnant really easily.

6:26

And that for me was

6:28

a big like, whoa moment

6:30

because I was in a big body still.

6:33

I, you know, I was

6:35

still within diet culture at that time.

6:37

So I'd already told myself

6:39

that I had to lose weight before I could get pregnant. And that was

6:41

kind of what I was gearing myself up

6:43

for. Um, but I had

6:46

really long, regular cycles. Like I hadn't,

6:48

um, Quote unquote, fixed by PCOS.

6:50

And still, we got pregnant. And

6:53

so that, for me, was this big seed

6:55

that I planted of like, well, why, why

6:57

did they tell me that? Why did I spend all this time

6:59

thinking that was going to be a problem? And,

7:02

you know, I'm still fat, so, so

7:05

how is this, you know, how is this a thing? How

7:07

did I get pregnant? And it was

7:09

when I was pregnant with my first child

7:11

that I really started

7:13

to understand what advocacy meant because I

7:16

was, you know, treated quite

7:18

negatively. I was labeled high risk during

7:20

that pregnancy. I was told I couldn't

7:22

have the birth choices I wanted to have. So.

7:25

I really had to like dig deep and

7:27

really like

7:29

do a lot of research and advocate for

7:32

myself to have kind of the choices that I wanted

7:34

and to, you know, not scale myself

7:36

to death through the whole thing because actually a

7:38

lot of the research is sensationalized.

7:41

A lot of it isn't based in any like current

7:43

evidence bases. And

7:45

so the more I kind of dived into it, the more I was

7:47

like, well, this doesn't make any sense. Like, why

7:50

was I told this and why are

7:52

we led to believe this? So that

7:54

is really what planted the seeds for me. So

7:57

alongside kind of my own education,

7:59

when I decided to quit dieting, I

8:02

was like coming to terms with

8:04

like the fact that the fertility industry is so

8:07

problematic when it comes to telling

8:09

people to lose weight, telling people to diet and

8:12

realizing, you know, how much harm I've done in

8:14

that process of. Supporting folks

8:16

with fertility. So It was a

8:18

long kind of time getting there and

8:20

it's taken me a long time to, yeah,

8:23

and learn a lot of the stuff that I learned when

8:25

I was training and figure out,

8:27

you know, what it means to me,

8:29

but yeah, I'm

8:31

very glad that I'm where I'm at now in

8:34

terms of both like growing my family

8:36

and also kind of the work

8:38

that I get to do and learning more about

8:40

like how problematic

8:42

not only the healthcare industry is, but

8:44

the fertility industry in particular. Yeah.

8:47

Yeah, and I'm sure that the folks out there that

8:49

are walking a similar path to what you walked

8:51

are very grateful too that you're doing this work

8:54

and showing them that there's another option,

8:56

right? Because I think so many are told the

8:58

same things that you were told. And

9:01

this is something we've been exploring with lots of

9:03

guests here on the show lately about

9:05

medical weight stigma and

9:09

I'd love to hear your opinion. Like, why do

9:11

you think this is just the default?

9:13

Like, you must lose weight. It's because

9:15

of your size that you're having these problems

9:18

and you must lose weight in this situation

9:20

before you get pregnant. Why do you think

9:22

that happens?

9:24

Oh, it's such a big question. And I

9:26

don't think I know one right answer.

9:28

Like, I think that it's

9:30

just like, I think doctors

9:32

and healthcare providers, like, they all

9:34

go into the field wanting to do the best for people,

9:37

right? I think I really, truly believe that they really

9:39

think they're doing their best for them. But

9:41

I think that the, the

9:43

fact that we believe that that is so

9:46

deeply rooted within like our

9:49

culture, our society. From

9:51

so many different directions that

9:53

it's, I feel like it takes a real

9:56

active. participation

9:58

with healthcare providers to begin to dismantle some

10:00

of that. So obviously

10:02

there's kind of the roots of racism

10:04

and the roots of colonialism and

10:07

religion. There's so many

10:09

different things that have

10:11

influenced and shaped the way that we feel about our

10:13

bodies and about food and about, um,

10:17

like how we talk about all of those things.

10:19

And I think it's just so unfortunate

10:22

that the medical system is still you know,

10:24

really rooted in patriarchy, really

10:26

got so many kind of racist roots

10:29

to it that, you

10:31

know, until we can really explore

10:34

that and analyze it for what it

10:36

is, like, you can't almost take it

10:38

out of those roots. It's so impossible

10:40

to, like, like, figure

10:42

out and dismantle all of the different parts

10:44

and where they come from. Like, especially gynecology,

10:47

like there is so much racism in gynecology,

10:50

a lot of like the, I think it is the,

10:53

what they call like the father of modern gynecology,

10:55

I don't remember their name, but they did so

10:58

many like experiments on black women

11:00

without their consent, without, you know,

11:02

proper pain control, and

11:04

so much of our like current understanding

11:06

around gynecology and around fertility is,

11:09

is based on that premise and that practice

11:11

and it's, It's abhorrent. It

11:13

means that so many black people within, you

11:15

know, both the UK where I'm from and the US, you

11:17

know, in Canada, in North America, like,

11:20

experience so much poorer

11:22

care and, you know, increased mortality

11:24

rates through gynecology

11:26

and birth and fertility. Um, it's a, it's a wild,

11:29

a wild space to be in.

11:31

But yeah. I don't,

11:34

until we make big changes, it's hard to know,

11:36

like, where do we go from here? And that's

11:38

just it. And I think your answer highlights just

11:40

how complex and nuanced this all is.

11:42

Like, it doesn't boil down to one simple

11:45

bit of misinformation, right? Like, there's so

11:47

much impacting this

11:50

conversation. So,

11:53

in your research, as you started to

11:55

learn more about fertility,

11:59

What did you find out? Like, is there any truth

12:01

to the things you were being told that being

12:03

in a larger body makes it harder to get pregnant

12:06

or puts you at higher risk? Like, what's the truth?

12:09

Hmm. And I think it's,

12:13

the truth is, again, it's complicated and nuanced,

12:16

but the best way that I can explain

12:18

it is that so much of the science and

12:20

the evidence that underpins How we

12:22

practice fertility care, how doctors practice

12:24

support in helping people get pregnant.

12:27

It is done by researchers

12:29

who are also in this diet culture soup, who are also

12:32

influenced by the history, but also the

12:34

current climate, where so many,

12:36

um, pharmaceutical companies are promoting

12:39

weight loss because they sell, you

12:41

know, the meds, like, this is so prevalent

12:43

right now. And

12:46

they, um, Doing

12:49

their research with the underlying foundation

12:51

and bias of fat equals barats

12:53

Therefore, you know, this is going to

12:56

like be the lens on which I see

12:58

the results of this research So

13:00

when I go back and look at that research now with a weight

13:02

neutral lens kind of as the way that I see

13:05

it I can see such big flaws

13:07

in how they talk about these things and

13:09

the decisions they're making about the experiments

13:12

and about how they're

13:14

like sharing that information with the world

13:16

because we know we live in a world where it's all about

13:18

like the highlights right like

13:21

it's the it's the headlines it's that's

13:23

what we take away from a lot of the research

13:25

and For

13:27

example, like, one

13:30

fact or myth that's kind of well

13:33

documented in the fertility world is that it takes fat

13:35

folks longer to get pregnant. Now

13:37

the research that I've based on is,

13:39

there's like, maybe like two studies that

13:41

show this. And the time that

13:43

it takes that they found in those studies is

13:45

like two to three months longer, like it

13:47

is not a big deal,

13:50

but also like none of that research

13:52

takes into account how fat folks are

13:54

treated, so the weight stigma

13:56

that they face when they go to the doctor, the fact that

13:58

they, might not even want to go to their doctor

14:00

because of nervous experiences they've had in the

14:02

past. The fact that their doctor will

14:05

turn them away and say, Oh, come back

14:07

in, you know, when you've lost this weight,

14:09

and they don't get the appropriate tests, the appropriate

14:11

treatment to see if there's anything else underlying going

14:14

on. The fact that,

14:16

you know, tests that treatments

14:18

are built and designed around thin

14:20

people's bodies. So when a fat person

14:23

wants to access fertility care or fertility

14:25

treatments, It's not built for their

14:27

body, so they have a different response to it.

14:29

They may need a higher dose of drugs.

14:32

They may need, um,

14:34

you know, a longer time to go through that

14:36

process. But because we're

14:39

assuming that a thin person is the norm,

14:41

when fat people are going through those processes

14:43

and those treatments and they respond differently,

14:45

we're seeing that as that they're the problem,

14:48

not that that hasn't been designed for

14:50

them. So it's, There's so many layers

14:52

to it, but at the end of

14:55

the day, it's really just the fact that

14:57

all of the research really points to,

15:00

it's, that we, we haven't

15:02

been considered, we haven't been thought about when

15:05

these processes, these designs, these things are

15:07

thinking about, and we,

15:11

um, are, yeah, our experiences are never

15:13

considered. We just, we're not thought

15:15

about in that way. And back

15:17

to that, we've probably been on diets in

15:19

our, you know, in our past again,

15:22

never considered it's never thought about the impact

15:24

of that. And when we look at medicine

15:26

across kind of a bigger, broader picture,

15:29

we see that these kind of risks are

15:31

increased by a similar amount across all the different

15:33

like modalities. And actually

15:35

what would perfectly explain that is just

15:37

the weight stigma and the weight bias that fat folks face

15:40

when they're trying to access any form of health care. Mm

15:42

hmm.

15:43

Mm hmm.

15:44

Yeah. And. Yeah,

15:46

and I agree, like, I think

15:48

a large part of the risk

15:51

in quotes that they assign

15:53

to folks in a larger weight

15:55

or higher weight comes from the fact

15:58

that they tend not to access medical care

16:00

because of the way that they're treated, right? So they

16:02

don't have the same level of care

16:04

as someone in a smaller body, because

16:07

they're afraid of how they're going to be spoken to, right?

16:09

So I think that elevates the risk

16:11

right there.

16:13

Absolutely. And we know that. You

16:15

know, if they're thinking and worrying about that,

16:17

you know, that could impact their stress

16:20

response, you know, that will increase the levels of stress

16:22

in their body. We know that things like increased

16:24

adrenaline and cortisol can impact hormones.

16:27

We know it can impact so many different functions

16:29

of the body. So it's, there's a hundred different

16:31

ways that you can see that actually the way that we're

16:33

treated as fat folks. Can impact,

16:35

you know, can have an impact on the risk

16:38

of different things occurring.

16:40

Yeah, it's so complex, like there's

16:42

so many layers.

16:44

So many pieces to the puzzle and it's, you

16:46

know, there's no studies that will look at this

16:48

stuff because there is no funding

16:50

like. There's nobody who, you know,

16:52

there's no big weight neutral companies that

16:54

are wanting to fund this kind of research,

16:56

if only. Well, that doesn't,

16:57

that's not profitable, right? Like,

17:00

I'm sure, you know, the diet

17:02

industry wants to make money and I'm

17:04

sure they're involved in

17:06

fertility care in some way too, right?

17:08

Like, at the end of the day, it's who's making money

17:10

off of this.

17:12

Yeah. Oh my God. If you look up, like,

17:14

if you Google fertility diet, there is so

17:16

much rubbish out there.

17:18

Really?

17:18

There's so many people making such a lot of money.

17:20

Even like one of the biggest

17:23

clinics in America, their

17:25

director, so their founder has

17:27

a diet book about keto.

17:31

Wow. Yeah. Like while,

17:33

while you're trying to conceive.

17:36

Like, yeah, for IVF people, for people going through IVF,

17:39

like, they're recommending keto and

17:41

keto, you know, I think it's, what, it was designed

17:43

for epileptic children, like, that's the only Originally,

17:46

but now everybody should be on it, apparently.

17:49

Yeah, but it's, there's no research,

17:51

no evidence, there's no, you know, nothing to support

17:53

it. Yet, you know, we have these

17:56

people who are, you know, really influential

17:58

within like the fertility and the IVF spaces

18:01

in the US and they are actively

18:03

promoting, you know, really harmful

18:06

non evidence based diets for folks.

18:08

Yeah, and that was going to be my next question is like, is

18:10

there any evidence that following a keto

18:12

diet improves your chance of getting pregnant?

18:15

Of course not.

18:16

You'll be surprised or not that there

18:18

is no evidence to support any form of intentional

18:20

weight loss. And in fact, there's a really, there's a couple

18:22

of really good studies that have come out over the past couple

18:24

of years that show weight loss,

18:27

dieting, any form of like lifestyle

18:29

intervention has absolutely no impact

18:31

on fertility outcomes.

18:33

Interesting. Can you just say that again

18:35

for the people in the back?

18:39

It doesn't work.

18:40

Wow. Okay. So Where

18:43

it's being told to lose weight and

18:45

yet there's nothing that shows

18:47

that doing so will improve your chances.

18:49

Yeah, and these are like big, like thousands

18:52

and thousands of studies, like people in these

18:54

studies, like really good

18:56

studies, really good quality, and there's just no,

19:00

no, like evidence to support

19:02

that these help. Yeah, you know, we know

19:04

that that's not going to filter through for a long time,

19:06

but people are being impacted today.

19:09

by the decisions that doctors, healthcare

19:11

providers, fertility doctors and specialists

19:14

are making.

19:15

And that's the sad part is it doesn't filter through,

19:17

right? Like, in not just infertility,

19:20

but in so many areas of health,

19:22

people are told you have to lose weight to

19:24

get better. And then there's like,

19:27

across the board, there's not a lot of evidence that losing

19:29

weight improves whatever the health

19:31

condition is, but that's not the part they're sharing, right?

19:33

Just you have to lose weight.

19:35

Yeah, it's, it's like a judgment,

19:37

right? Like, we still have. As a culture

19:40

it's accepted that we can judge people based on their

19:42

body size and we, we assume that

19:44

it's their fault. We like we make so many

19:46

assumptions and so many judgments on people.

19:49

And actually, you know, if we If

19:51

we could just let that go and just

19:53

accept that we're all human, we all deserve as

19:56

much care and support in whatever healthcare

19:58

field that we need. And

20:01

there should be enough for everybody, right? Like, you

20:03

know, there should be access to healthcare,

20:06

that should be a basic human right for

20:08

everybody to get the healthcare they needed. Um,

20:11

then I think it would be a much better place. Absolutely.

20:14

Yeah, I feel like there's a pervasive belief

20:16

that being in a larger body

20:18

is a personal choice and

20:21

that you've, you've done this to yourself,

20:23

right? And if you want to choose to

20:25

get pregnant, then you got to choose

20:28

to get thin. And like, none

20:31

of that's true, right? Like, and

20:33

even if it were a choice, like it should

20:35

be a fully acceptable choice to

20:37

make.

20:38

Absolutely. Like it should be a choice, right?

20:40

But at the moment, people don't have that choice.

20:43

People in bigger bodies don't have

20:45

the option to get fertility care that they need,

20:48

like, because there are so many BMI barriers

20:50

around accessing, like, things like

20:53

IVF. And for some folks, they don't have any other options,

20:55

like, if they've got specific health care

20:57

conditions, or if they're with a partner that has specific

21:00

health care conditions, sometimes,

21:02

like, that is their only option. And if

21:04

you have BMI restrictions around that, then

21:07

they're left with nothing. Like, they can either

21:09

travel, you know, hundreds of miles to find a clinic

21:11

that will help them. Or

21:13

they have to kind of go through, you know, really.

21:16

Often, you know, difficult weight

21:18

loss strategies to try and figure out

21:20

how they're going to lose the weight to be able to work with

21:22

a clinic closer to them. Um, and

21:24

that's if they've got the money available, because again, this

21:27

stuff is really expensive and so much of it is covered

21:29

on insurance or, you know,

21:31

we have the NHS but again, like

21:33

it's, there is a very poor provision in terms

21:35

of care for, you know, even for people

21:38

without BMI restrictions, like there are still,

21:40

it's still very limited.

21:42

Gotcha. Okay, so

21:44

all of this can leave a person feeling pretty

21:47

hopeless and disempowered. Where

21:49

does someone like you come in? How do you

21:51

empower the folks that you work with to

21:54

take control of their reproductive health

21:57

and get the care that they need

21:59

and hopefully get the results that they want?

22:02

So there's a few ways that I like to work

22:04

with folks and I've done this for, I

22:07

think, 2024, six years

22:09

now. So I spent, I've worked with a lot of people trying

22:11

to figure out exactly what's going to help. And

22:13

I kind of narrowed it down to like four main areas.

22:16

So the first is really looking at

22:18

how can you support your health without weight loss and diets?

22:20

Because so many of us. We don't know

22:22

what that looks like because all of our

22:25

quote unquote health adventures

22:27

through life have always been with the sole purpose

22:29

of making our bodies smaller. So it's

22:31

about looking at, you know, what can we do? That's

22:33

going to be helpful. That's not going to involve restriction,

22:36

not going to involve dieting, like how can we take care

22:38

of our bodies? without, you know, diet

22:40

culture breathing down on it. The

22:43

next is around advocacy. So really

22:45

helping folks figure out what kind of healthcare team

22:48

they need, what support they need, how they can access

22:50

that, you know, looking at their options,

22:52

where they live and what they're doing so

22:54

that they can really get the support

22:56

that they need. The next

22:58

one is around trust. So really for

23:00

so many folks in bigger bodies, and especially

23:03

through fertility stuff, they have

23:05

this. underlying sense that

23:07

their body is broken and it's not working for them

23:09

and it is, you know, never

23:11

going to do the thing that they really wanted to do.

23:14

So it's about really rebuilding that relationship

23:16

and that trust with their body so they could be

23:18

worth working together on the same page.

23:20

And then we do a lot

23:22

of work around beliefs. So around,

23:26

believing that their body is capable of this because

23:28

we have been absolutely conditioned to believe

23:30

that our body will, you know, will

23:32

not be able to do this. It will never do this. It's impossible

23:35

for us. So helping people

23:37

rewire that part of their brain

23:39

to really believe that their body is capable of this

23:41

can be a really powerful way to

23:43

help them not only day to day,

23:46

but to access care and to advocate

23:48

themselves. Because if you don't believe that you deserve

23:50

this care, then it's really hard for us

23:52

to advocate for it. So, It's

23:55

lots of different parts of the puzzle, putting them together

23:57

alongside a good dollop of like research

23:59

and evidence to really help people build those

24:02

evidence banks that they are capable and that

24:04

the evidence supports that, um,

24:06

just to give them all the tools that they need to navigate

24:08

this.

24:10

Yeah. I love that. I

24:12

love that. That's, uh, I really appreciate

24:14

you breaking down your process and I love

24:16

how there's such a strong focus on trusting

24:19

yourself and believing

24:21

in your body, right? And then, and looking

24:23

for evidence that contradicts all the

24:25

things that they've been told. That's

24:28

a really powerful approach. So

24:31

what's a first step someone might

24:33

be able to take if they're in this situation

24:36

and feeling very hopeless and not sure what to do?

24:39

Where can they start?

24:41

So the first thing that I often

24:43

recommend folks work on is giving themselves

24:45

permission. So for so many people,

24:48

we give ourselves this like, Oh, well,

24:50

I can't do this until I've lost weight. I can't do this

24:52

until I'm in a smaller body. And I

24:54

would love to invite people to give

24:57

themselves permission to try now to not wait

24:59

longer, to not put it off, to not. you

25:02

know, believe that they don't deserve

25:04

this. Like I 100 percent believe if

25:06

you are listening to this, you absolutely deserve everything

25:08

that you need in order to get pregnant and to grow your family.

25:11

And I would love for you just to give yourself

25:14

that little bit of permission to go, maybe

25:16

it's okay that I do this now. Maybe I don't

25:18

have to wait until I've gone

25:20

and tried another diet or done another thing

25:23

or made my body smaller. Like maybe

25:25

it's okay.

25:27

Oh, that like that hit me right in the heart. Because

25:30

I can see how someone would start to believe

25:32

that they don't deserve to have

25:35

the family that they, they want to have

25:37

and the desires that are on their heart,

25:39

right? Absolutely. Yeah,

25:41

that is such a powerful statement. Tell

25:45

us a little bit about your book. You have a book that you

25:47

published called Fat and Fertile. Tell us a little

25:49

bit about, um, what's in

25:51

it and what people can gain

25:54

from reading it.

25:55

So, I wrote it about

25:57

four years ago now, and I really, I

26:00

was just so sick of there not

26:02

being any books out there for fat folks.

26:05

Every, every fertility

26:07

book out there, all we are is a little

26:10

side note saying, that

26:12

you need to be a quote unquote healthy weight

26:14

if you want to get pregnant. So if your BMI is over

26:16

this then you need to lose weight. And

26:18

it just felt so sad

26:20

to me that our whole

26:23

experience as folks in bigger bodies

26:25

was just summed up by a small paragraph

26:27

of You're wrong, your body is wrong,

26:30

you need to lose weight, just affirming all

26:32

of this rubbish, which, you know, the doctors

26:34

tell us. So, it was,

26:36

it felt really important for me to make something

26:39

that was accessible to people. And

26:41

so I wrote a book, and it is self

26:44

published, it is something that's

26:46

very much a labour of love. It is very,

26:49

um, rough around the edges, shall we say.

26:51

It would, I would love to give it another good edit,

26:54

I would love to have a little time to rewrite

26:56

it. But, for me It

26:58

was so much more important to have something out there for people

27:01

to be able to have something that mirrors

27:03

their experience, that speaks to

27:05

them, that, you know,

27:07

can empower them to, to actually feel

27:10

like they're not alone, because so often we don't

27:12

talk about this stuff and so often, especially

27:15

for fat folks navigating this, you don't

27:17

want to share it because you're worried that people will judge

27:19

you or shame you or make you feel bad for even

27:21

wanting to have a family. So

27:25

it's, I kind of described it as like a hug

27:27

in a book, it is lots of my experiences,

27:30

lots of the coaching techniques that I use,

27:32

some of the research that I had back then,

27:34

obviously I've got so much more of it now, but, um,

27:37

it was really just a starting point

27:39

for folks to be able to realize

27:42

that they, you know, there are other

27:44

people navigating this, validating

27:46

their, you know, experiences. just

27:49

something for them to be able to hold on to

27:51

in those moments where it felt hopeless,

27:53

they felt there was nobody that understood them, nobody

27:56

knew what they were going through, and

27:59

that they were all alone. And I've had some really,

28:01

really lovely feedback on it, like some, you

28:03

know, people, um, Saying that, you know, not

28:05

only that it helped them, but you know, that, that

28:07

it helped them grow the family that they wanted. So

28:10

it, it was definitely a worthwhile

28:12

investment of my time, even though

28:14

I'd love to do so much more with it. It is, yeah,

28:16

definitely. You

28:17

know what, they always say done is better than perfect.

28:19

Right. And

28:20

you

28:22

know, as our coach always says, you

28:25

can't hold yourself back like waiting to

28:27

have everything polished and perfect. You

28:30

have something valuable to offer

28:32

into the world. So get it out there.

28:34

Right? Like,

28:35

Absolutely. Absolutely.

28:37

And I can't agree more with that. I feel, and

28:39

I feel for, you know, for everybody who's working

28:41

through this, like fertility stuff, we

28:44

have this such a high expectation that we put on

28:46

ourselves, right? Of doing things perfectly, of

28:49

the right supplements, the right nutrition, the right

28:51

movement. Like, All of this needs

28:53

to be perfect. And, you know, your future

28:55

baby doesn't care about you doing it perfectly. They

28:57

just want you to look after yourself. And I think.

29:01

I take that into every area of my life,

29:03

no matter what it is, you know, so far

29:05

beyond my work is just like trying,

29:08

just trying things and seeing how they work and doing

29:10

a little bit like every tiny step is valuable

29:13

and useful. Um, even

29:15

if you don't do it forever, like it doesn't matter, like it

29:17

still counts.

29:18

For sure. 100%. Right.

29:21

And once you become a parent,

29:23

you realize that there is no perfection.

29:27

Perfection goes out the window. It's

29:30

always doing your best and rejigging

29:32

things and learning and growing and you know,

29:34

so yeah. Okay.

29:37

So as we wrap up, is

29:39

there. Anything you,

29:42

Final, that you want to say, what

29:44

would you want someone who's on

29:46

this journey of struggling with fertility,

29:48

what would you want them to know?

29:53

I think the most important thing that I'd want them to

29:55

know is that they're not alone, that there

29:57

are other people who are going

29:59

through this, even if you never find them talking

30:01

about it on forums or on the internet, there are

30:03

other people navigating these exact same things,

30:06

and, you

30:08

know, your experiences are totally valid.

30:11

And that it's so understandable that you're, you know,

30:13

you're experiencing it this way and you're feeling the way that

30:15

you are. But that

30:19

you don't have to make your body smaller in order

30:21

to get pregnant. And that you

30:23

are so worthy of getting any

30:25

help and care that you need in order to reach that

30:27

goal right now. Like,

30:29

you're not broken. You don't need fixing. There's nothing

30:31

that you need to change. Right

30:34

now.

30:35

I love that. I love that. Okay.

30:38

I know that our listeners are going

30:40

to get so much value out of

30:42

this episode and they're going to want to follow

30:44

along with you and your work.

30:47

So where can everybody connect with

30:49

you and keep in touch?

30:51

So I'm mainly on Instagram

30:53

and my handle is fat positive fertility.

30:55

So you can find me there. Um,

30:57

I also share kind of all the resources

30:59

and things that I have on my website, which is nicolasalmon.

31:02

co. uk.

31:03

Wonderful. Nicola, thank you so much

31:06

for taking the time to be on the show today and

31:08

share your wisdom about

31:10

fertility and, and weight stigma in

31:12

this field. And I know it's going to just

31:14

be so valuable for those who are listening. So

31:16

thank you.

31:17

Thank you so much for having me Kim. It's been such

31:20

a joy.