0:04

For nearly an entire school year, college

0:07

campuses across the U.S. have been

0:09

consumed by the war in Gaza

0:11

and allegations of anti-Semitism. Protests

0:16

first broke out shortly after the October

0:18

7 attack, in which Hamas

0:20

terrorists killed 1,200 Israelis and took another

0:23

250 hostage. The

0:26

Israeli government responded with a military campaign that

0:28

has killed 34,000 Palestinians in

0:30

the Gaza Strip. But

0:34

over the last few days, the protests

0:36

surrounding this war and the responses

0:38

from university leaders to those protests

0:40

have significantly ramped up. Police

0:42

in riot gear detained protesters at Columbia

0:45

University, loading them into multiple buses as

0:47

they cleared out students who had camped

0:49

out in tents on the school's south

0:51

lawn. This morning, police say

0:53

at least 45 pro-Palestinian protesters were arrested

0:55

at Yale University for

1:06

violating Yale's policies and instructions.

1:10

So you yourself were also threatened with arrest,

1:13

right? Just because you and other reporters were

1:15

there trying to cover what was happening? Yeah.

1:18

My Monday morning was a lot. This

1:21

group of, I want to say like four to six-ish

1:23

cops comes to this part of the wall that we're

1:25

on and is like, you guys have to

1:27

get on the off the wall or we're going to arrest

1:29

you. Anika Arora Seth is

1:31

the editor-in-chief and president of the Yale

1:33

Daily News. She was

1:36

on the scene first thing Monday morning when

1:38

Yale police arrested 47 protesters for trespassing

1:41

during a demonstration in support of Palestinians.

1:44

I called Anika to ask what it's been

1:46

like for her as a student journalist covering

1:48

these protests on the ground and to try

1:51

to understand why this era of campus activism

1:53

feels so incredibly fraught. You're listening

1:56

to The Political Scene. I'm

1:58

Tyler Foggett and I'm a senior editor at the Yale Daily News. at the

2:00

New Yorker. Hey,

2:04

Anika, thank you so much for joining us today. It's good

2:06

to be here. Thank you for having me. I

2:08

just wanted to start by kind of checking in

2:11

with you and how you are

2:13

doing and how the rest of the Yale

2:15

Daily News is doing. I can only imagine

2:17

how hard it must be trying to cover

2:19

something like this while also going to class

2:22

and trying to have relationships with

2:24

the peers who you're reporting on. Yeah,

2:27

absolutely. I guess off the bat, I'll

2:29

say at least for me and a couple of our lead editors,

2:31

there's not a lot of going to class happening right now. So

2:34

there's that. But I think, you

2:36

know, on October 7th when Hamas first

2:38

attacked Israel, I will

2:41

be honest that I don't really think I

2:43

understood as probably most people didn't. What a

2:45

strong ripple effect this would have on American

2:47

campuses. Obviously it was tragic and

2:50

would have tremendous geopolitical ramifications in the

2:52

Middle East, but I don't think I

2:54

realized how much this would consume our

2:56

newsroom. I remember that first week of

2:59

covering vigils and protests. There was a

3:01

lot of learning that we

3:03

had to do incredibly quickly, right? And in Yale

3:05

College, we have our October recess, like kind of

3:07

the middle of October-ish. So that week was really

3:10

just like running and trying to

3:12

get to this brief reprieve with which

3:14

you could like retabulate and figure out

3:16

a plan for the rest of the

3:18

semester and year. But I think as soon as that

3:21

first doxxing truck was at Columbia and

3:23

at Harvard, that suddenly we're like, okay, this

3:25

is going to get very intense here

3:27

very quickly. Can you explain what

3:29

the doxxing truck is? The doxxing truck

3:32

was run by this company called like

3:34

Accuracy and Media that would plaster students'

3:36

faces and names on the sides of

3:39

this truck. It was like a truck

3:41

that had three sides of like a

3:43

digitally emblazoned kind of electronic billboard. It

3:46

wasn't always super clear where these names and faces

3:48

were being pulled from, but it seems

3:51

as though they were being pulled

3:53

from various statements that students would

3:55

have signed in support of a

3:57

ceasefire or condemning the Israeli

3:59

military. response to Hamas's attack on

4:01

Israel. So this was all early days,

4:03

right? I think it was mostly

4:05

like that second week after October 7th in

4:08

the other parts of the Northeast. That truck

4:10

didn't come to Yale until right before Thanksgiving

4:12

break in November for the Harvard Yale football

4:14

game. It's like the biggest athletic event

4:17

in the Ivy Conference, but that itself was a

4:19

really challenging thing for us to cover, even just

4:21

the ethics of it, right? You have Photo Journalist

4:23

going around campus taking photos of this doxxing truck.

4:26

I felt ethically suspect

4:28

to reproduce photos in our paper that

4:31

would include this digital billboard with other

4:33

students faces. How do you cover the

4:35

doxxing truck without doxxing students? Exactly. Yeah.

4:37

But at the same time, right, like

4:39

there have been a lot of students

4:42

requesting anonymity and I've taken an approach

4:44

this year being very liberal about offering

4:46

anonymity for stories about Israel's war against Hamas

4:48

in any respect because of how prolific doxxing

4:50

has been on both sides of the issue,

4:52

honestly. But sometimes

4:54

I'm like these also are people who are over the

4:56

age of 18 and when other things happen that feel like

4:59

they are more self-driven and less

5:01

truck arrives on campus driven. What is the

5:03

line for anonymity has been a very difficult

5:05

thing for us to think about in our

5:07

newsroom right now. Also because I

5:10

think anonymity operates kind of differently here where

5:12

it's like a 6,000 student

5:14

undergraduate population and so everyone kind

5:17

of knows everyone and you put a name in the

5:19

paper and everyone knows who it is. But I

5:21

think to me what's been the most challenging

5:23

part of this whole thing was what you were

5:25

talking about in that first question about we

5:28

have relationships with these people. I mean because

5:30

we're an undergraduate paper most

5:33

of the people in our newsroom, honestly

5:35

everyone, know someone who thinks a

5:38

very specific way or has a very specific take or

5:40

a very strong take on the matter and then

5:43

you're running into social alienation and

5:45

ostracization from various communities,

5:48

right. I think some of our Jewish reports

5:50

have had a really hard time feeling like

5:52

if they're covering the war in

5:54

a way that perhaps some of their community members don't

5:56

find very fair to Israel. be

6:00

more ostracized from Jewish

6:02

events on campus and that's been very difficult for

6:04

them. And is that even the case when they're

6:06

writing something that's um I mean

6:08

just like full disclosure to the audience like I went

6:11

to Yale and worked for the YDN and I feel

6:13

like even back then I graduated in 2017 there was

6:15

a lot of explaining to to

6:17

students that just because you quote someone doesn't

6:19

necessarily mean that you agree with what they're

6:21

saying. Neutrality at least to me here seems

6:24

to be in the eye of the beholder

6:26

and everyone seems to want every quote to be

6:28

challenged in very different ways. You know I've heard

6:30

from both sides of the issue well why would

6:32

you let that quote go in the paper uncontested

6:35

let's say. Why are you allowing someone to

6:37

talk about the harms unto the

6:39

Israeli people on October 7th without also

6:42

noting in the you know

6:44

immediately subsequent graph what

6:46

Israel is doing in Gaza. But

6:48

if it's a story about you know Israeli

6:50

students reacting to October 7th that doesn't

6:52

necessarily need to be the subsequent graph it can be

6:54

about student experiences and we can have as you're saying

6:56

another article that's reflecting on Palestinian and

6:59

Arab students and their experiences right now

7:01

but they don't always need to be the same thing

7:03

at the same place in the same time. I

7:06

would actually find it more divisive

7:08

if every article was well they

7:10

say this and they say that and they say

7:12

this and they say that I would find that

7:14

to be not offering space for anyone as a

7:16

space for everyone. So clearly

7:18

things have been pretty chaotic on campus ever since October

7:20

7th and I do want to talk a little bit

7:22

more later about anti-semitism and xenophobia

7:24

on campus and student safety but

7:26

first I'm hoping that we can

7:29

talk about the events directly

7:31

leading up to the arrests on

7:33

Monday. Absolutely yeah I'll say that

7:35

we had a sense that this was going to be

7:37

coming last last weekend organizers

7:39

on campus were planning this very big

7:41

week of demonstrations because the Yale Corporation

7:44

was going to be meeting on Saturday

7:46

this past Saturday. Do you mind explaining

7:48

what the Yale Corporation is? Yes so

7:50

the Yale Corporation is the university's highest

7:53

governing body it has 17 members 16

7:55

of them are trustees so various alumni

7:57

hedge fund managers senior

7:59

officials And are the ones who. Do.

8:01

Things like choose the university's next

8:04

president or make final calls on.

8:06

Controversial. Things like that I spent

8:08

are more investment choices Yale has hired

8:10

on an ongoing presidential search since the

8:12

beginning of his academic years has since

8:14

last Fall when our current president, Peter

8:16

A Salad They announced that he would

8:18

plan to step down from his role

8:20

on June thirtieth. To. Date: There.

8:23

Has been very little publicly disclosed.

8:25

I guess information from the corporation

8:27

on what the requirements might be

8:29

to satisfy this position or be

8:31

eligible for at on who they're

8:33

considering for the job and that's

8:35

definitely been a source of faculty

8:37

and student disdain on campus over

8:39

the air bites at the end

8:41

of last semester. Mentally, Stephano called

8:43

other university presidents and not president

8:45

salivate to. To. Congress is

8:47

how about campus Anti Semitism? Following

8:49

testimony of this week's Congressional hearing about

8:51

a lack of push back against anti

8:54

semitism on their campuses Harvard's Claudine Gay

8:56

Mit is Sally Corn Bluth at Elizabeth

8:58

Mcgill from the University of Pennsylvania answered

9:00

questions posed by Republican at least a

9:03

fanuc. It was pretty clear immediately that

9:05

that that might fundamentally change the way

9:07

in which Yell approach. It's. Presidential thirds.

9:09

We never got that from administrators but

9:12

it feels like a pretty intuitive some

9:14

that. With you know presidents of

9:16

selective universities now coming international international

9:18

fire that that might make the

9:20

corporation think a little bit about.

9:22

How. A President Mike They're under those conditions

9:25

on when newly appointed so it with

9:27

that kind of in mind the corporation

9:29

had it's second to last meeting of

9:31

the academic year. This past

9:33

Saturday in essence going to be early

9:35

June and it has initial announcement Our

9:37

President Salva said that he would step

9:40

down on June thirtieth. so the clock

9:42

kind of ticking here soon the week

9:44

leading up to this corporation meeting on

9:46

Saturday Organizers who really saver yell divesting

9:48

from military weapons manufacturers. Ostensibly

9:51

pro Palestine. Organisers: In this current

9:53

moment set up like Teach ins. Protests.

9:55

I've songs. That.

9:58

kind of saying for the entire week that

10:00

kind of culminated in, well began

10:03

to culminate I should say, in

10:05

Friday's encampment or as they

10:07

called it occupation of Beinecke

10:09

Plaza which is this pretty central part of

10:11

campus. We have this big building

10:13

called the Shorton Center that's like where the

10:17

most popular, you know, not substantiated

10:19

reported wise, but I would call

10:21

it the most popular dining

10:23

hall. It's called Commons. There's like an

10:25

underground coffee shop in this building. It's

10:27

very well attended, right, and

10:29

Beinecke Plaza is directly outside of it. So

10:32

Friday evening they're getting much

10:34

more intense. It's a crowd of 400 people or something

10:37

like that by, you know, 10 10 30

10:39

p.m. on Friday night and it's honestly

10:41

the biggest protest that I've seen in my three

10:43

years at Yale and it also,

10:45

at least in the air, feels like the sea angrier.

10:54

How would you characterize the encampment? I

10:56

mean I feel like with students getting

10:58

arrested at different universities there's always this

11:01

question of are these peaceful protesters who

11:03

are getting arrested for loitering or is

11:05

it...are they getting arrested because of violence

11:07

or violent rhetoric? Well

11:09

this is like a very personal perspective on it.

11:12

It's not the newsroom's perspective and

11:14

I also have been present for a lot of the protesting

11:16

but not all of it. With

11:18

those caveats in mind I have not seen significant

11:21

acts of violence transpire during these protests. They've

11:23

been very peaceful. There have been a lot

11:25

of counter protesters. Students have come in and

11:27

like entered this protest, or at least on

11:29

Friday, with Israeli flags, but those disruptions from

11:31

what I've seen have all been handled very

11:33

peacefully. They've had marshals at all these protesters

11:35

wearing like the neon green vests

11:37

or whatever who have like stood

11:40

in between counter protesters and protesters to try

11:42

and minimize any kind of altercation

11:45

which has, I think, made them very peaceful and

11:47

physicality. I do think the

11:49

rhetoric has certainly felt very angry

11:51

and vitriolic. Fuck you

11:54

Salahzay, I've heard intifada,

11:56

intifada, down with Zionism,

11:59

all walls will fall, things like

12:01

that that have not been

12:03

physically violent, but I can certainly understand

12:06

how they might elicit a very emotional response. The

12:09

sentiment has certainly just like felt angry

12:11

in the air, at least on Friday it did. And

12:13

I was convinced that Friday night was going to be in a

12:16

rest night. It

12:18

seemed that way. I think protesters thought that too.

12:22

Arrested why? I mean, is it because they're not supposed

12:24

to be in Beinecke Plaza late at night or?

12:28

I should rewind a little bit maybe

12:30

to clarify this one. On Monday was

12:32

the first big day of

12:34

this week of demonstrations preceding

12:36

the corporation meeting. Student

12:38

protesters had erected this

12:40

wooden bookshelf also on Beinecke Plaza on

12:43

the stops leading up to this big

12:45

center on campus, the Schwarzman Center. And

12:50

this was a source of a lot of

12:52

administration student tension. And the administrators are saying,

12:54

oh, you can't put this up. You're blocking

12:56

the entire stairwell. Organizers

12:58

are like, there are two walkways on either side of the

13:00

stairwell. Yes, we can put this up. And

13:02

there's a lot of discourse on campus on Monday. So

13:04

this is the Monday before the encampments were

13:07

erected. And all this

13:09

discourse on campus about like what university

13:11

policy is, what are the consequences for

13:13

violating university policy. And

13:16

it's a little confusing because Beinecke

13:18

Plaza, I suppose, has a closing

13:21

time of 11 PM

13:23

on weekends. It's different closing times on different days of

13:25

the week. But students

13:27

don't really go to bed at 11

13:30

PM and live on campus and are often on

13:32

the plaza past 11 PM. And

13:35

there's, I think, tension of if I'm

13:37

a Yale student, why can't I use

13:39

Yale property? I think the

13:42

argument that people were kind of going

13:44

at it with. But given,

13:46

I think, this administration student

13:48

tension on Monday, I think it

13:50

was unclear to what extent they

13:53

would be enforcing those university policies

13:55

on Friday night. Yeah, I

13:57

mean, could you walk through it to like get to? where

14:00

you were going or totally walk through it. Even on

14:02

Monday with a book shelf, you could totally walk through

14:04

it. I do think part of the reason that

14:07

perhaps some found it difficult to walk through it

14:10

was the like

14:12

earlier people were shouting things and

14:14

also the beginning

14:16

of that week had what's

14:18

called bulldog days where newly

14:21

admitted Yale students come to campus for a

14:23

couple of days to basically see if they

14:25

want to go right to the school. And

14:27

that also I think was a target of

14:29

why all these

14:31

organizers chose this week to do things. You have

14:34

the corporation meeting upcoming whether you know are going to talk

14:36

about Yale's next president and perhaps could discuss divestment

14:38

if they were so inclined maybe. No one

14:40

really knows what happens at these meetings because

14:42

their minutes are sealed for 50 years after

14:45

the date of the meeting but perhaps they could. And

14:48

you also have all these newly admitted students who

14:50

are coming to Yale and Yale

14:52

of course wants to have

14:54

students that are admitted matriculate to the university.

14:56

But then you have this like kind of

14:58

crazy scene on cross campus. The middle of

15:00

the green is like people are sunbathing and

15:03

all these like guys on some sports teams

15:05

are playing spike ball in the middle of

15:07

the green. But on the right by Sterling

15:09

Memorial Library which is the biggest library on

15:11

campus you have this table of mostly

15:14

graduate students. It was a group of 14 students,

15:16

two undergrads and 12 grad students who were

15:18

on hunger strike. They began their hunger strike

15:20

at some point in April. It

15:23

was an eight-day long hunger strike that has recently

15:25

concluded. They began their hunger strike to also

15:27

urge Yale to divest from

15:29

military weapons manufacturers. So they're on the

15:31

right of campus and then by day

15:33

two of this big week

15:36

of demonstrations on the left of cross

15:38

campus is this table entitled let's

15:40

talk about Israel for students

15:42

with they say a wide range of

15:44

views on the Israeli state to

15:47

discuss Israel's policies and the

15:49

purpose of Israel and Israel's military response

15:51

and all of those things. So

15:53

it's honestly like the craziest scene of all time

15:55

on cross campus where you have all these students

15:57

just like kind of playing spike ball but

15:59

bookended. by Israeli and Palestinian flags.

16:01

And also there are like high

16:03

school seniors walking around everywhere. And

16:05

it's also like an inflatable bulldog

16:08

kind of hanging out here too. Oh

16:10

my goodness. It is truly an eclectic

16:12

mix of things. So what

16:14

actually led to like the arrests on Monday? Yeah,

16:17

so administrators have told the paper that

16:20

they had been trying really hard to

16:22

avoid arrests and that they

16:24

were in active negotiations with organizers

16:26

of the protest. Organizers have confirmed that these were

16:29

taking place. Trying to offer various

16:31

like concessions we'll call them or

16:33

various compromises that might convince these student

16:35

organizers to pack up and leave from

16:37

their encampment on Beinecke Plaza. Among

16:40

these included guaranteeing a meeting with two of

16:42

the 16 trustees on the corporation

16:45

or guaranteeing means to people who sit

16:47

on that committee that recommends investing policy

16:49

to the corporation. A direct meeting

16:51

with the Dean of Yale College, Para-Cleece Lewis, various

16:55

deals like that. And they were spending

16:57

I think most of the weekend trying

16:59

to negotiate with these student organizers. And

17:02

come Sunday night, they made their final deal. They

17:04

gave until a certain time to accept that final

17:06

deal. And what some students have

17:08

said, and of course they can't all be monolithic,

17:10

but what some have said to us in response is

17:13

that until Yale agrees to disclose

17:15

its investments at a minimum, we're

17:18

not interested in any kind of deal. Because Yale

17:20

also only discloses less than 1%

17:23

of where its endowment is

17:25

invested and the other 99 points I'm saying

17:28

remains unknown. Wait, wait, wait.

17:31

So, okay, so that opens up a lot of

17:33

questions. How do people even know to ask Yale

17:35

to divest from weapons manufacturers if Yale

17:37

isn't even really talking about the extent to which

17:39

they do that? Yeah, so the extent to which

17:42

Yale does that remains incredibly unclear. It's certainly

17:44

under 1% of the endowment that

17:46

Yale has publicly disclosed. Of

17:48

that under 1%, Yale has holdings in

17:50

two exchange traded funds. I

17:53

share as in Vanguard. And

17:55

I share as in Vanguard respectively,

17:58

have holdings in companies like Lockheed.

18:00

Raytheon, Boeing, there's a whole

18:02

slew of them that translates

18:04

to some amount of money

18:07

that Yale then holds in those

18:09

companies which are weapons manufacturers. So

18:11

I think the argument that organizers

18:14

are making is that if

18:16

even within this under 1% of disclosed

18:18

endowment information Yale already has

18:20

holdings weapons manufacturers what

18:22

else might they have and so

18:24

their demands their chance kind of all week

18:27

and all weekend have been like Yale disclosed

18:29

and divest we will not stop we will

18:31

not rest as they say like like until

18:33

Yale discloses and divest and so when

18:36

admin kind of came forward trying to make

18:38

all these negotiation deals at least some students

18:41

are like until Yale discloses its

18:43

investments in totality we are uninterested

18:46

in any kind of deal and

18:48

so at a certain point I guess on on Sunday night

18:51

administration was like look this was your final

18:53

warning unless you

18:57

leave we are going to

18:59

arrest you we're gonna have

19:01

Yale police arrest you and

19:03

then you know what happened they didn't

19:06

leave and another warning came out on

19:08

Monday morning before 7 a.m. and

19:10

then you know they

19:12

started getting arrested. So I

19:14

mean they were they were arrested but it

19:16

sounds like they weren't necessarily held. What were

19:18

the students charged with specifically? Yeah so it's

19:20

a class A misdemeanor for trespassing. They all

19:23

have summons for it from May 8th under

19:26

Yale policy and they said

19:28

this a bunch of times over the

19:30

weekend before arrests yesterday disciplinary action from

19:32

the university could include

19:34

suspension it could include reprimand

19:37

probation and could

19:39

some seniors worry potentially preclude

19:41

them from graduating. We're not

19:43

totally sure if that'll happen given the timeline of

19:46

all the things but it definitely

19:48

is a worry for some of the seniors involved. So

19:52

Anika I'd like to ask you more about just

19:54

like the atmosphere on campus but

19:56

first we're going to take a quick break so you'll hear more

19:58

of the political scene from the New York in just

20:00

a moment. I'm

20:03

Alex Schwartz.

20:11

I'm Nomi Frey. I'm

20:13

Vincent Cunningham, and this is Critics at

20:15

Large, a New Yorker podcast for the

20:17

culturally curious. Each week, we're

20:19

going to talk about a big idea that's

20:21

showing up across the cultural landscape and will

20:24

trace it through all the mediums we love.

20:26

Books, movies, television, music, art. And I always

20:28

want to talk about celebrity gossip, too. Of

20:30

course. What are

20:32

you guys excited to cover in the next few months? There's

20:34

a new translation of the Iliad that's coming out,

20:36

Emily Wilson. I'm really excited to see whether

20:39

I can read the Iliad again, whether I'm that

20:41

literate. I mean, the gory of ink. I

20:44

can't wait to hear Adam Driver go again at

20:46

an Italian accent in Michael Mann's Ferrari. He can't stop.

20:49

I mean, and bless him. I can't wait. Molto

20:52

bene. Molto bene. We

20:56

hope you'll join us for new episodes each Thursday. Follow

20:59

Critics at Large today, wherever you

21:01

get podcasts. You really

21:03

don't want to miss this. Don't. Don't

21:05

miss this. Don't miss it. See you soon.

21:19

I guess I'm still stuck on this

21:21

idea that the protests themselves, like the

21:23

end goal is a little bit speculative

21:25

and that we actually don't really know

21:27

how much Yale is investing in weapons

21:29

manufacturers. We just know that to

21:31

some extent they are investing at least

21:33

a bit. I guess I'm wondering if

21:35

we should actually see these

21:38

protests as just more of a larger

21:42

solidarity thing since even if Yale were

21:44

to agree to completely

21:46

divest from weapons manufacturers, that wouldn't

21:48

necessarily result in a ceasefire or

21:50

something. I guess I'm just trying

21:52

to figure out how the level

21:54

of efficacy here and whether it's more

21:56

of a show of support or whether the students are going to

21:59

be able to do that. Actually, like l to

22:01

do something Uk I am. I don't think

22:03

that they're thinking that if yell. Commits that

22:05

I've seen as going to be a ceasefire to

22:07

mean as resembles protests from linked. Funny a tennis

22:10

when you and Harvard students are rallying to

22:12

get their school to divest from fossil fuels.

22:14

At. That time to is true that we didn't really

22:16

know. The full extent of yells

22:18

investments in Fossil fuels. But you'll operates

22:21

by this handbook called like the Ethical

22:23

Investor Handbook. Arm and then

22:25

adults regulations based on not in

22:27

which they stipulate what holdings are

22:29

off limits Rates that now includes

22:31

fossil fuels right on that that

22:33

it recently has grown to include.

22:36

Yell did in in assault weapons

22:38

retailers that market to the general

22:40

public. That was an update that

22:42

came like last week said the

22:44

aiding other looking for two things:

22:47

wine disclosure of what Yell Holdings

22:49

are overall that four hundred percent

22:51

of investments and into a commitment

22:53

that yellow. Bar holdings and military

22:55

weapons on you. Factual errors just as

22:57

they have without. Disclosure on for

23:00

assault weapons. Retailers. That

23:02

martyrs for them and a public. I actually

23:04

don't know which are those two is more

23:06

feasible, but it seems like they're like to.

23:09

Two goals and the mixer. So you mentioned

23:11

earlier that there have been divisions on the

23:13

campus and on campuses nationwide since October Seventh.

23:15

You know? Obviously, this is the. Only.

23:18

Protest. So far related to Israel

23:20

and Gaza that his arm resulted in arrest

23:22

as far as I know of on the

23:24

on campus but. What is the

23:26

other demonstrations been like? I

23:29

never thought that protests earlier in. The. Your

23:31

had risen to a level that. Could.

23:33

Even come close term wanting around

23:35

us. At. The same time I think

23:37

this campus is currently and husband's in October seventh

23:39

the most devices that are seated in three years

23:41

and which is interesting to see how pretty. Seeping

23:44

political things happen in the past

23:46

three years with like abortion rights,

23:48

an affirmative action As to pretty

23:50

notable examples. Of that, but it's never

23:52

been. I think. This

23:55

is visibly polarized is that divisiveness

23:57

because of dislike. The. Way in which

23:59

students are respond. to the divisive

24:01

things that are happening nationally and internationally

24:03

and kind of disagreeing with each other,

24:06

like on intellectual grounds or is it because

24:08

of things that are actually happening on campus that

24:11

are basically pitting students against each other? I think

24:13

it's probably a mix of both. I

24:15

think this is a deeply emotional issue

24:17

for so many people. I mean, and of

24:19

course, like abortion rights and affirmative

24:22

action are too, but this is one

24:24

where people pretty conceivably have family members

24:26

that are being killed, you

24:28

know, abroad or maybe

24:30

born in Israel for, you

24:33

know, summer break or something like that,

24:35

visiting family. That's obviously an incredibly difficult

24:37

experience or have family in Gaza who

24:39

have been killed by the

24:42

Israeli military response. Are

24:44

you seeing a lot of students like that? Because I feel like one

24:47

way in which, you know, like

24:49

campus protests are often characterized or mischaracterized

24:51

by the media is like, look at

24:53

all these, you know, like rich college

24:56

students from Greenwich who, you

24:58

know, go to Yale and are protesting about something

25:01

that they don't know anything about and have no

25:03

actual connection to. I

25:07

think that a lot of

25:10

the people who have

25:12

expressed is either pro-Israel or

25:14

anti-divasment, that

25:17

general part of the spectrum of thoughts

25:19

has spoken with the news or written opinion

25:22

pieces or spoken at vigils and prayers about

25:24

friends and family who are either in the

25:26

IDF and fighting the war or who were

25:28

killed on October 7th or in the aftermath

25:30

of it. So I've certainly seen

25:32

a lot of that. I've

25:34

heard less people describe

25:36

family in Gaza on campus. I think

25:39

that's also possibly because of general

25:42

concerns about doxing or things like that.

25:45

So I'm not trying to draw an equivalency between those

25:47

two at all. That's just what I've seen and observed

25:49

in terms of who's being vocal about family

25:52

experiences in the region right

25:54

now. I don't think that I

25:56

would characterize at least the most divisive parts of

25:58

these protests as people who have been killed. who don't

26:01

care or don't have a legitimate emotional connection to

26:03

it. I think people really, really do. I

26:06

will say that I think part of yesterday's mass

26:08

demonstration blocking that intersection

26:11

was certainly people who favored

26:13

divestment, but also people

26:15

who were responding

26:18

to Yale police having arrested friends

26:20

and peers who might

26:22

not have really cared about the divestment

26:24

cause at all prior or maybe very

26:26

minimally prior or even had the opposite

26:29

take prior, but were just upset about

26:31

wanting to support their friends

26:33

who had been arrested. What

26:35

has the university's response been to all

26:37

of the divisiveness on campus this year?

26:40

Yeah, it's a great question. There's been a lot of it. I'll

26:43

talk about maybe I guess like three specific

26:45

events that I remember. The first was pretty

26:47

in the early days of all of this.

26:49

A student wrote the words death to Palestine

26:51

on a whiteboard in one of the residential

26:53

colleges here. At least two students complained

26:56

about that having been written to

26:59

administration. In response, the

27:01

head of that residential college sent

27:03

an email to all that college's students not describing

27:06

the incident itself, but pretty

27:08

clearly alluding to it. I mean, the

27:10

timing is not coincidental. Describing

27:13

Yale's commitment to protected

27:16

political speech and

27:18

academic free speech and all that

27:20

kind of stuff, which was interesting.

27:22

They really haven't also cracked

27:25

down on phrases that, as

27:27

we saw in the press in November

27:29

and December nationally, have been deemed anti-Semitic

27:31

by many such as Intifada and

27:33

things like that. There really haven't been crackdowns

27:36

on that sort of stuff either. What

27:39

I would say was the

27:41

most interesting administrative response to me

27:43

last semester was students put up

27:46

this banner also near

27:48

the Beinecke Plaza, the choice scenario. Maybe you

27:50

were seeing how important this area is on

27:52

campus now. But put

27:54

up this banner that had enumerated a bunch

27:57

of names of Palestinians that Israel had

27:59

killed. in Gaza. Like I think at

28:01

this point it was maybe some tens of

28:03

thousands of names they have written on this

28:05

thing. And a student

28:08

later went to administration asking

28:11

if he could take the banner down. The

28:14

administrator allowed it to be taken down. And

28:17

that was also a source of a lot of dissent

28:20

and controversy on campus about like,

28:23

why could they put that up in the first place?

28:25

And from, you know, one camp saying that, and

28:27

the other camp saying like, well, why

28:29

could he take it down also? And then

28:31

later admin comes back, the administrator involved comes

28:34

back and says like, there

28:36

were administrative errors, she writes, in allowing

28:38

the banner to both be put up and taken down.

28:41

There has been a lot more communication

28:43

in the past like five days about

28:46

protests and free speech on campus than

28:48

I think the entirety of this semester, and maybe

28:50

even the entirety of last semester, but I

28:52

haven't checked that exactly. The last

28:55

time that we got a university wide email,

28:57

even related to the war that

28:59

came from the university president, Peter

29:01

Salazar was December 7th, it was

29:04

called against hatred and kind of listed all

29:06

these things about like, you

29:08

know, be kind to your peers and yell is committed

29:11

to free speech, but also to like, protecting

29:13

each other and we don't tolerate harassment of

29:15

any kind, whether it's to Jewish students, Muslim

29:17

students, Arab students, Israeli students. And

29:19

now in the past like three days, since

29:22

the encampment began, we've gotten two emails from

29:24

President Salivay, we've got an email from administration

29:26

in the past week about like, Yale's policy

29:28

on chalking, like drawing things in chalk on

29:31

sidewalks and on university buildings,

29:33

putting up structures, I

29:36

think in direct reference to the book that

29:38

was directed last Monday.

29:40

And things like that have certainly

29:42

become a lot more prevalent in

29:44

our inboxes in the past week than they

29:47

were before. We'll

29:49

have more with the editor in chief of the Yale Daily

29:51

News after the break. If

30:00

you have thoughts or questions about

30:02

today's episode, send us an email

30:04

or voice memo to themailatnewyorker.com. Be

30:07

sure to put the political scene in the subject

30:09

line. Hey,

30:12

I'm Brian Seltzer, host of Inside the Hive from

30:14

Vanity Fair. This week, I'm

30:16

talking with author Dave Cullen about the

30:18

25th anniversary of the Columbine Massacre. Well,

30:21

I think the anniversaries are a good

30:23

time to just stop and take stock

30:25

because normally we're always, we're seeing things

30:27

in isolation and 10 years out,

30:30

20 years out, especially 25 years out, it's

30:33

really good to step back and see

30:35

like, okay, what has this wrought? Where

30:38

are we now? What's changed? What hasn't?

30:40

What should? Join me, Brian

30:42

Seltzer on Inside the Hive from Vanity Fair.

30:45

Listen, wherever you get podcasts. You

30:58

know, you mentioned earlier that in December,

31:00

the presidents of Harvard, U Penn and

31:03

MIT were called before Congress to talk

31:05

about anti-Semitism on their campuses, and two

31:07

of them have since resigned. And it kind

31:09

of seems like Salve has like flown under

31:11

the radar a little bit. And I'm curious

31:13

whether it's because he's on his way out.

31:16

I guess I'm just curious why he hasn't

31:18

really faced the same scrutiny and then also

31:20

what his, his views seem to be based

31:22

on what he's communicated to the Yale community.

31:24

Yeah, absolutely. I think his communications

31:27

that have been published to

31:29

the Yale community have been

31:31

pretty standard in that, you

31:33

know, Yale prioritizes and values free expression, but

31:35

also puts student safety above all else, that

31:38

that kind of thing. We don't tolerate harassment,

31:40

discrimination. We are investigating all

31:42

reports of violence

31:44

and threatening and intimidation. I think part

31:47

of why President Salve has flown under the

31:49

radar is perhaps because he just said he

31:51

were things. I do concurrently think

31:53

that there is a larger national political

31:56

capital argument to be made here that

31:58

like President Salve has gone. The way

32:00

out as you were saying, I don't think graphs

32:02

to it would have gained as. Much clout

32:04

for grilling President Salivate acid

32:06

you for grilling President. Gay.

32:10

For a whole that near reasons, I'm curious if you

32:12

could talk a little bit. About armed Like from

32:14

the reporting The Windy. And has done what

32:16

anti semitism on campus has looked like.

32:18

He other been reports that there was

32:20

a Jewish student who was poked in

32:22

the i was a flagpole at the

32:25

encampments and needs to be treated at

32:27

the hospital. And you've mentioned you know

32:29

people chanting into thought and also protesters

32:31

chanting from the river to the see

32:33

house and will be free and I'm

32:35

just curious what what anti semitism has.

32:37

Looked. Like and yet the extent to

32:39

which it said it's been an issue

32:41

for student safety? Yeah, I'm. Not.

32:45

Gonna go missing before. I haven't

32:47

myself seen the that are appeared

32:49

violent. At the protests that I've been out for the

32:51

times that which I've been there. We. Have restarts

32:53

her Mcgill Police A new police to try

32:55

and see it like if there. Are. Seltzer for

32:58

it and trying verify. What

33:00

happened? Because. We.

33:02

We just don't know exactly what happened. So

33:04

that's certainly that is in the works. Journalistically

33:06

for us right now. What

33:08

is that they don't come visiting? A bit

33:10

of a challenging question right of in. That's

33:12

how do we define any kind of bigotry

33:14

to begin with? I'm Is it a ceiling?

33:16

Is it an act? As a thing that

33:19

we. Can do market clearly these things constitute

33:21

you know anti semitism or racism or or

33:23

classes I'm or is it more like i

33:25

like this, your pasta and a semantic to

33:27

me right. At least thing that I've

33:29

observed that A seemed incredibly. Difficult. To me

33:31

right, or like Jewish students on

33:34

campus ceiling obliged to now have

33:36

a perspective on Israel. On

33:38

for hostage it. It's have that before or feel the need

33:40

to have up before it's it's. It's like a what

33:42

is your take game which camp to you fallen

33:44

game. Is. It good. Is it bad? We

33:46

deserve it doing I think. Our. Question

33:49

that. I've watched a lot of my Jewish

33:51

friends worked. Through on over. The

33:53

last year and and I can totally

33:55

see how the general. Environment on

33:58

campus would. Would feel like this. right,

34:01

to work through those questions in perhaps

34:03

a disproportionate way for for Jewish students,

34:05

right. There also

34:07

have been a lot of

34:10

concerns about students' safety from Arab and

34:13

Palestinian students on campus, especially

34:15

in light of the shootings

34:17

that happened elsewhere in the Northeast

34:19

of three Palestinian and Arab students. There have

34:21

been a lot of concerns here about like

34:23

students not wanting to go on the record with

34:25

the YDN who are Arab or Muslim,

34:29

who are worried about being doxed or worried about being

34:31

attacked in that kind of way, because

34:33

it is also true that that

34:35

the doxing truck had mostly

34:37

people of color on it and that felt racialized

34:40

to a lot of people. I'm not really

34:42

sure exactly how to define, I don't

34:44

think anyone is sure how to define

34:46

all these various structures of marginalization, but

34:48

I think everyone here is feeling a

34:50

different way in different

34:52

levels about ways that they're being

34:55

cashed out or pushed aside right now. On

34:58

Monday afternoon there was like a big faculty

35:00

walkout at Columbia where hundreds of members turned

35:02

up in solidarity with the students and

35:05

I'm wondering what the faculty response has been like at Yale.

35:07

A bunch of professors canceled class yesterday

35:09

or made it optional. Yale has 14

35:11

residential colleges and a number of the

35:13

heads of those colleges have sent emails

35:16

out to their students saying, you know,

35:18

I'm sending love, I'm sending hugs, I'm

35:20

sending support to you all, and

35:22

a lot of those heads have also been present for some

35:25

of the of the protesting, not necessarily to participate, but

35:27

just to see what's happening and show up a little

35:29

bit. I haven't heard myself

35:31

of faculty members like not offering

35:33

extensions or general empathy or support

35:36

just for the entire like divisive and very

35:39

very challenging situation on campus right now.

35:41

Like even if you weren't involved in

35:43

the protests or were nowhere near across

35:45

campus yesterday or Beinecke yesterday, I think

35:48

it is incredibly difficult right to like read a headline and

35:50

like a national paper

35:52

or like an international paper that's like you

35:54

know more than 40 students arrested at Yale

35:57

is a hard thing even if you aren't involved or

35:59

anywhere proximal. to those who were arrested. Yeah,

36:01

like a couple weeks before following this period. I

36:04

guess I'm curious what you think national media

36:06

organizations are missing when it comes to the

36:08

story of student demonstrations and protests on campus.

36:10

What do you think that we should be

36:13

paying more attention to? Yeah, I

36:15

mean, I guess the first thing, at least for y'all specifically,

36:17

is I've seen a lot

36:19

of attention on these protests being

36:21

super violent and horrific and all

36:23

of those things. And I

36:25

haven't been at all of it. I

36:28

haven't had a lot of it. I think

36:30

characterizing them as wholesale violence feels

36:32

somewhat inaccurate. They've been largely peaceful.

36:34

And I think there is

36:37

a component of motivation that I think

36:39

I haven't really seen in a lot of

36:41

national stories. I've seen they're

36:44

getting arrested, and they have class, and they're busy, and these are

36:46

students who are doing a lot of things. But I haven't really

36:48

seen a lot of why are students

36:50

doing this. And it seems what you were saying before,

36:52

too. Are

36:54

these just people who are wealthy

36:57

and go to Ivy League schools who just want

36:59

to do something to virtue signal? Or are these

37:01

students who have this deep emotional connection to

37:03

something? And I feel like I

37:06

would super, super consume articles that were thinking

37:09

about across university perspective on why

37:11

students across are doing this. Is

37:13

there communication across the Columbia

37:15

and the MIT and the

37:17

Yale and the Maryland protesters? And

37:19

Berkeley announced one, too, yesterday. Stuff

37:22

like that feels really interesting to me. I

37:24

would love to see more motivation-related stories as to

37:26

why they're doing this and what their incentives are

37:29

here. Well, thank

37:31

you so much, Anika. Thanks, Tyler. Anika

37:37

Arora-Sess is the editor-in-chief and

37:39

president of the Yale Daily News. You

37:41

can follow the paper's ongoing coverage

37:43

of the campus protests at yaldailynews.com.

37:46

Thanks to Nydia Del Carmen at the Yale Daily

37:49

News for providing the audio that we played from

37:51

Friday's protests. This has

37:53

been the Political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggett.

37:56

The show was produced by Julia Nutter and

37:58

edited by Stephanie Karauki with Priscilla. production assistants

38:00

from Jake Loomis and Mike Kuchman. Our

38:03

executive producer is Steven Valentino. Chris

38:05

Bannon is Conde Nast, head of global audio. Our

38:08

theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Enjoy

38:10

your week and we'll see you next Wednesday. I'm

38:22

David Ramdick, host of the New Yorker Radio Hour.

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