0:00

Hi everyone, Ben here. While

0:02

we're hard at work on our next season of The

0:04

Plot Thickens, we've got something we

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think you'll really enjoy. We're sharing

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an episode from American Masters Creative

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Spark, the Webby award-winning

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podcast produced by our friends at

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PBS. In this special episode

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from the American Masters podcast, host

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Joe Skinner sits down with one of

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the greatest and most subversive filmmakers in

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America, the one and only

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John Waters. Over the past six

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decades, John Waters has celebrated

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the best of bad taste with provocative

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films from Pink Flamingos and Multiple

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Maniacs

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to Female Trouble. Now

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the king of transgressive cinema

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is taking on new challenges. In this episode,

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he breaks down the process of writing his first

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novel, Liar Mouth, a feel-bad

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romance. He

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even explains why he thinks his work

0:53

is, believe it or not,

0:55

politically correct. It

0:57

is a terrific interview, and if you like what

0:59

you hear, head to your favorite podcast

1:02

app and subscribe to American Masters

1:04

Creative Spark.

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With that said,

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let's roll the tape.

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This episode includes derogatory epithets

1:13

used in an artistic context. Listener

1:16

discretion is advised. Ladies

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and gentlemen, the great, great John Waters. John

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Waters is an iconic writer

1:25

and filmmaker who spent decades honing the fine art of bad

1:27

taste. Thank

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you, Writers Guild of America East, for validating the lunatic fringe

1:32

of cinema and

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recognizing that a lifetime of penning

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trashy screenplays is something to celebrate.

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I clawed my way to the top of the trash

1:44

heap.

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When Waters says trash heap, he means it. The John

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Waters universe is as

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campy and raunchy as possible, filled

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with memorable

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characters like drag queen Divine, and the

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ever-so-famous, the almost-sad, and the almost-insane,

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and Pink Flamingos, who's been

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proudly named the filthiest person alive.

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Could you give us some of your political beliefs?

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Kill everyone now! Condoned

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first-degree murder! Advocate

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cannibalism! Filther

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my politics! Filther my life!

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Another classic character is hairspray's

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Tracy Turnblad, who charms TV

2:22

producers and steals boyfriends while campaigning

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against segregation.

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Aren't you a little fat for the show?

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That's enough, Amber. I would imagine

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that many of the home viewers are also pleasantly

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plump or chunky.

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Oh, come on. The show's not filmed in

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cinemascope. In

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his decades as a writer and filmmaker,

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John Waters has always been a provocateur.

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He pushes the boundaries of what's acceptable

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and gets you to laugh about it.

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But the

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nature of who John Waters is provoking,

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and how he's provoking them, has changed

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a lot since his cult films in the 1970s.

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Those early films were seen as outlandish and

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offensive by the general film-going public.

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But how do you stir the pot like that in 2023?

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In a world where it sometimes feels like we've

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seen everything and nothing can shock you.

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Waters embraces this challenge,

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and with his new novel, Liar Mouth, he's

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certain he will find his new censors. Censorship

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is not going to come from the dumb white men

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that used to give it to me because they gave up on me

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a long time ago. I'm Joe Skinner,

3:26

and this is American Masters Creative Spark.

3:29

In each episode, we bring you the story

3:31

of how artists bring their creative work to life.

3:34

For today's episode, I called up John Waters

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remotely while he was up at his long-time summer

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home in Provincetown, Massachusetts, to

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break down the process and inspiration behind his

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novel, Liar Mouth.

3:46

I first have to have a title. I always

3:48

need a title. John started writing his novel

3:51

in much the same way he wrote many of his films.

3:53

Coming up with that very first thing the audience will

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see when they're browsing at the bookstore, looking

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up on the billboards. I'm from all

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exploitation for art theaters. You always

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have to have the ad campaign. So

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I'm always thinking up the title

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basically and that really

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inspires me and I always design

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a cover of some kind just when I'm writing to

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have some visual image. This

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was a couple different headshots of different movie

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stars put together and it ended up being a fictitious

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person but it was a woman with

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a snarl on her mouth that was kind of

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great looking and had attitude and

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looked like she would be a liar. Then

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I sort of have to know the genre I'm

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satirizing. Then I have to know all the characters

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and then I start thinking about the plot which

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is the only thing that makes it a hit and

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you sort of do have to know the end even if you

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change it you do kind of have to know the end

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when you start.

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In classic John Waters style the

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characters in liar mouth are eccentric and

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break just about every available social norm.

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The book centers on con woman Marcia an

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airport suitcase thief. Marcia

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is better than other people. She knows

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that. Smarter too. Maybe

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not about the needless crap they tried to

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teach her in school but about important

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stuff like how to put things over on

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other people who think they have the right

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to speak to her before being

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spoken to first. The

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ones who make unashamed eye contact

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as if it were their god-given right to

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invade her privacy.

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There's also Marcia's mother Adora a

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plastic surgeon for pets and

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of course Marcia's daughter Poppy who

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runs an underground trampoline park for a group

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of addicted bouncers. Waters

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describes her as the most relaxed

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healthiest and yes happiest when

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she's midair and free from the financial

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troubles of running her privately owned business

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that used to be quite lucrative until

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this idiot international association

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of trampoline park of officials shut

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her down. Was that unfortunate

5:53

children's birthday party that ended with three

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injuries two of them serious really

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her fault.

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John found seeds of ideas for his characters

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from friends and also from observations

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at the center of human depravity, the

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airport. I did have a friend that once

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told me his girlfriend stole suitcases

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in airports, but that was it. I never

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knew any details, anything about it. But

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that germ of the idea stuck

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with me. And then I kept exaggerating

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and thinking about it and thinking about it and thinking about it. And

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since I'm on planes practically every day,

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I had really a lot of time

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to research it while I was traveling. I'm

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not writing when I'm on the plane,

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but I am watching

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and spying on people and listening

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to conversations. And God, people

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dress terribly on airplanes after

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COVID. They wear torn off

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pajama cutoffs and dirty t-shirts

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and flip-flops. Get dressed!

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And once John had his full cast of characters

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in mind, he was ready to write.

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It was like any kind of writing. I had to go in that

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room and do it every day. I get up at six,

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I write eight to about 1130.

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I'm completely sober. I have a lot of

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cups of hot English breakfast tea

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black. I use

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legal pads, the kind I like right

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here. I'll tell you, I use gold

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fiber in pads. And

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I have thick pens and clear scotch

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tape, and that's how I write everything.

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Every book, every movie I've ever done.

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No music. I have to be by myself.

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I mean, someone else could be in the house, but they can't

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be in the room that I'm working on.

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Everybody knows never to call me in the mornings.

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The process of writing lyremouth really

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involved getting to know Marcia, Poppy,

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and Adora as they all traveled to Provincetown

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in an attempt to kill each other. I'm

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fascinated by behavior I can never

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understand. I love to look at people

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that think, why would they do that? Or especially

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when they're so serious about it. And

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Marcia has absolutely no

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sense of humor about herself. That's why I think she's

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funnier because she actually completely

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believes in every ludicrous.

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This idea that she has that she is dead

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right and the rest of the world is wrong. Marsha

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hates anything old. Antiques,

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vintage, collectibles. It's all

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dirty to her. Used,

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stained with other people's fluids.

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Children's tears, unwanted

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sperm, stray mucus, even

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unrequited food.

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Deodorant are an unwanted invasion

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of her superiority, an interruption

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to her focused life. She

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has never worn deodorant in her

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life.

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You wouldn't want to hang out with her in real life,

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but you might like to hear about her. You

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just wouldn't want her to be your friend and you're

8:40

glad she's not in your family.

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I do generally care for all

8:45

my characters, even the worst ones, even the ones that

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lose in my book. I

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like spending time with them. I like thinking them up.

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And I become each character when I'm writing

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it, so I live as those people actually

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for a couple years when I'm writing the book.

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And while living as his characters, John

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Waters is writing and rewriting

9:04

and writing some more. Liarmouth

9:06

often sounds like a stream of conscious narrative

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that he could have just spoken out loud and improvised,

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but in reality it's written very carefully.

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I just get through that first draft, which is

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the hardest thing, and then I don't keep reading

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it over and over. I just keep going and then I

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read the whole thing. I'm going to kill myself. And then I think,

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who wrote this? But all I can say is

9:26

that it's rewritten probably

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eight drafts. And so it is carefully

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worked out, I think. I mean, I do rewrite

9:35

a lot.

9:36

And each time it gets better and better,

9:39

and each time you do change things and

9:41

you change a punchline, you change a joke,

9:43

you add things, each time it gets better

9:45

and better, then when it doesn't get better, you're done.

9:48

Once you finish the book, John was a

9:50

little nervous to share it with the world. I

9:53

figured with this book, I was really afraid when I turned

9:55

it in, because I think one of the craziest

9:57

things I've ever written, you know, I didn't have a sense of...

9:59

because she wouldn't call us back

10:02

once we sent it to her. He's not exactly sure

10:04

what that ghosting from the sensitivity editor

10:06

means about the contents of Lyremouth. But

10:09

he did get an idea when he recorded the audiobook

10:12

and realized just how obscene some parts

10:14

of it were. When I'm reading it aloud, I look over

10:16

at the horrified technician's face

10:18

that has never heard one thing about me. I'm

10:21

really sad my parents are no longer with me,

10:23

but the only good thing about that is that they don't

10:25

have to read Lyremouth.

10:28

There's a lot of sex talk, and

10:30

there's a great little book I use a lot, and I've said it

10:32

before. It's called The Big Book of Filth,

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and it's a glossary of every

10:38

filthy term you can think of. It's really good for

10:40

a writer, I would say, to get it. I

10:42

would say Fudge Dragon I got from

10:44

that book, and that's a pretty hideous one that I'm not

10:46

going to say on your show what it is, but you'll have to

10:48

read the book to figure that out. So

10:51

certainly I was nervous

10:53

at what the reaction would be when I turned it in because

10:56

I had absolutely no idea.

10:58

It could have gone either way.

11:18

I wrote horror stories at

11:20

summer camp and would read them around

11:22

the campfire, and the kids freaked out and called

11:24

their parents.

11:27

When

11:27

I was 12 years old, I had a puppet show

11:30

career that I did at children's birthday parties, and

11:32

I did them a lot, sometimes two or three a week

11:35

at the height of my career.

11:39

I liked the idea that I could tell

11:41

stories, I could make the kids scream. I'm

11:43

doing the exact same thing that I'm doing now. It

11:45

hasn't changed that much.

11:48

A thread that runs through all of

11:50

John Waters' work is how outlandish

11:52

it is.

11:53

He's called the Pope of Trash for a reason. reason.

12:01

I mean, one of his most iconic scenes involves

12:03

a drag queen eating dog feces.

12:05

But he's not just being provocative because it's

12:07

fun. I mean, he probably is a little

12:10

bit. But it's also to make a

12:12

strong case for free speech. I've rioted

12:14

for free speech. I think that you should be

12:16

able to say anything,

12:18

even if it's terrible. I know you have to put up

12:20

with the worst ends of freedom. But

12:23

the nature of that free speech has changed a lot

12:25

over the decades since he made his first films in

12:27

the 70s. The

12:30

rules I've always made my living from

12:32

making fun of is the rules of people

12:34

that consider themselves outsiders.

12:37

Multiple Maniacs was made in the middle

12:39

of the hippie movement and it made fun of hippie

12:41

values, even though the audience was hippies.

12:44

These assorted sluts, fags, dykes

12:46

and pimps know no bounds. They have

12:48

committed acts against God and nature, acts

12:51

that by their mere existence would make any

12:53

decent person recoil in disgust.

12:56

Multiple Maniacs pokes fun at the peace

12:58

and love hippie movement by turning it on its head

13:01

with a plot that follows a traveling exhibition

13:03

of obscene and disgusting acts, like

13:05

eating puke. 50 years later,

13:08

Lyarmouth is taking aim at the liberals

13:10

of today. I understand

13:12

that I'm writing it for today's world

13:15

and that the censorship, who

13:17

it would come from, probably is college-age

13:20

liberals.

13:21

I don't know. The whole gay world

13:23

used to be together. It was trans, gay,

13:26

lesbians, everybody together, and now we're all fighting

13:28

with each other. I think it's a mistake.

13:31

In many ways, Lyarmouth is a critique

13:33

of this particular shift in contemporary

13:35

social movements. Movements

13:37

that have rioted for free speech decades

13:39

ago, but now have all these rules

13:42

in place. This satire

13:44

comes through especially when talking about Poppy

13:47

and her group of bouncers who are

13:49

addicted to bouncing on trampolines.

13:59

victim of bouncing discrimination,

14:02

which is kind of ludicrous.

14:05

They're in a rest stop and they're bouncing and some people

14:08

start hassling them for being bouncers.

14:11

Look, we don't care about the law Poppy

14:13

butts in before Adora can continue her

14:16

possibly pointless debate. We

14:18

are outlaw trampoline radicals on

14:20

the run, Volta announces. And

14:22

we need a ride, demands Lipa

14:24

like the leaping leader of the left she's become.

14:27

All of you, Poacher Bob asks as he surveys

14:30

the bouncers and shakers who are

14:32

struggling to maintain their movement

14:34

so as not to alarm their potential rescuer.

14:38

Wiremouth is filled with little quips like

14:40

this, both embracing and

14:42

making fun of contemporary social movements

14:45

and the idea of who belongs in them. But

14:47

I think weirdly enough my films are

14:49

politically correct because of who wins,

14:51

the people that don't judge others and believe

14:53

in themselves no matter what society thinks

14:56

of them. It's made of course for

14:58

liberals but at the same time I go

15:00

on Fox News to promote it.

15:04

Welcome to this episode of Kennedy Saves the World

15:07

and today I'm going to save

15:09

you from someone who might

15:11

steal your luggage as

15:13

it is going around the airport carousel.

15:16

Which I think was astounding and kind

15:18

of amazing. So it is hopefully

15:21

for the humor for everybody because that's

15:23

the only way we can listen to each other.

15:25

Yes and there isn't

15:28

as much a push for personal

15:30

freedom now. When I was young it was

15:33

actually not out of

15:34

the realm of senses to

15:36

have sex with somebody different every single night

15:39

and now you need five lawyers to ask

15:41

somebody for a date. So I have

15:43

lived with all extremes.

15:49

So you believe in reaching across the aisle I guess.

15:51

Yeah I'm not sure what I do once I reach

15:54

across there. Maybe pick their pocket

15:56

or sneak something in their pocket is better

15:58

and that they don't even notice and then. and they carried

16:00

around with them. Infect them with humor.

16:04

Humor on things that are touchy,

16:07

people are touching that, but is that wrong?

16:26

Thank you

16:28

for going on this brief journey into the mind

16:30

of John Waters. And of course,

16:32

a huge thank you to John Waters for taking

16:35

the time to talk to us. American

16:37

Masters Creative Spark is a production of

16:39

the WNET Group, media made possible

16:41

by all of you. This episode was

16:43

produced by Anna Ladd and by me, Joe

16:46

Skinner. Our executive producer is Michael

16:48

Cantor. Original music is composed

16:50

by Hannes Brown. This episode was

16:52

mixed and mastered by Josh Broome. Funding

16:56

for American Masters Creative Spark was

16:58

provided by the Rosalind P. Walter Foundation,

17:01

the Taya Petzchek Yervelino Foundation,

17:04

the Anderson Family Fund,

17:06

Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III, and

17:09

the Philip and Janice Levin Foundation.