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over to peteratiyahmd.com forward

1:01

slash subscribe. Welcome

1:05

to a bonus episode of The

1:07

Drive. I'm joined today by my

1:09

friend and fellow car enthusiast, Dax

1:12

Shepard. The purpose of

1:14

our podcast today is to commemorate

1:17

the 30th anniversary of

1:20

Ayrton Senna's death, May 1st, 1994. The

1:24

idea for this podcast came up a

1:27

couple of months ago when Dax and

1:29

I were talking about this upcoming anniversary,

1:32

and Dax has sort of had

1:34

a fascination with my obsession with

1:36

Senna. Dax was not a fan

1:38

of F1 at the time of Senna's death, but has

1:40

more recently in the last five or six years become

1:42

a fan of F1. He

1:45

wanted to sit down with me and

1:47

better understand why it is that I

1:49

have such a fascination with

1:52

Senna's career and remain

1:54

an enormous fan all these

1:56

years after his death. So in many ways, that's

1:58

what this episode really is. It's sort

2:00

of a discussion between us that focuses

2:02

on a lot of things that have

2:04

to do with racing, F1, some of

2:06

it in the modern era, but really

2:09

most of it focuses on Senna's life,

2:11

his death, the circumstances of his death,

2:13

and his lasting impact and legacy on

2:15

the sport. So I hope you

2:17

enjoy this very special episode of The Drive. Oh,

2:21

this is delightful. Yeah,

2:25

man. Great to have you here. I

2:27

mean, your house. Yeah. Yeah. You

2:30

asked me to come do a Senna episode. I

2:33

was very forthcoming and said I'm a 3

2:35

out of 10 on Senna, but the reason

2:37

I wanted to do it is so that

2:39

I could pry and figure out what's really

2:42

going on with the Senna obsession. Yes.

2:44

Yeah. And I'm curious how much you're aware

2:47

of it or not. Probably not.

2:49

It's probably at this point sort of like

2:51

the David Foster Wallace fish and water thing.

2:53

Like it's the water I swim in. Yeah.

2:56

So I don't actually notice that I'm obsessed

2:58

with Senna. Do you remember what

3:00

year it started? Did it start

3:02

with the dock? No, no, no, no. I

3:04

mean, I remember growing up, when you grow

3:06

up in Canada, for whatever reason,

3:08

motorsports actually pretty popular in Canada. Yeah.

3:11

And I don't know why it might be because

3:14

of Jill Vilnev. Right. Although I don't have any

3:16

real recollection of Vilnev. So Vilnev died in 1982.

3:19

I was 9 years old, but for whatever reason,

3:22

like I don't even recall his death being

3:24

on my radar. But IndyCar

3:26

was incredibly popular and F1 was incredibly

3:28

popular. Because you always had the Montreal

3:30

race. You have Montreal for F1 and

3:33

you always have Moesport. You always had

3:35

the IndyCar and Toronto race. And

3:37

because my dad was in the restaurant business, meaning

3:40

he was buying beer by the truckload

3:42

and Molson was the beer in Canada,

3:44

they would give you tickets or something

3:46

like that. And did you go to

3:48

races? Yes. The 80s, right,

3:50

which is sort of when I came of age. I also

3:52

think that there's just, I don't know. I

3:54

just think there's some boys that get really into cars. Not

3:57

to say that there aren't girls that do, but I think it's a boy

3:59

thing. What did you have posters of

4:01

on your wall? It was cars and boxers. Those

4:03

were the two things I had posters of. Yeah,

4:06

I didn't have boxing posters, but I

4:08

loved those 80s boxers. My dad was

4:10

super obsessed. You and I have even

4:12

bonded over like the Tommy Hearns, the

4:15

Hagler, the Sugar Ray, that whole sweet

4:17

era of boxing was huge in

4:19

my house. And I loved

4:21

cars from the jump. My dad was super

4:23

into cars. My mom and dad drag raced

4:25

in high school. My mom had a record

4:27

at the drag track for the powder puff

4:30

series and the 60H Chevelle. So

4:34

they're crazy car people. My dad sold

4:36

cars. My mom worked at General Motors.

4:39

My stepdad was riding handling

4:41

engineer in the Corvette group for the 84

4:43

VET, that series. I

4:45

don't know what that... Gen 3, Gen 3, Gen 4. Gen

4:48

3 or Gen 4. Yeah. So

4:51

obsessed with cars, but never

4:54

overly obsessed with racing, would go to

4:56

Belle Isle to see any car. Because

4:58

again, because my family worked in the

5:00

automotive business, we too would end up

5:02

with tickets. And you'd go and

5:04

it was just... There's

5:07

no TVs anywhere. There's no coverage. And you virtually just

5:10

watch the profile of a car for one tenth of

5:12

a second. And I'm like, I don't know. I can't

5:14

buy in. Even today, I would

5:16

say F1 is one of

5:18

the sports that is infinitely better from

5:20

a total experience in terms of understanding

5:22

what's going on on television, especially given

5:24

how good TV is now. That

5:27

said, I still go to probably three races

5:29

a year, sometimes four, because the

5:31

sound is even though

5:33

nowhere near as good as it was in

5:35

the era we're about to discuss. And

5:38

once the hybrid era came in in 2014, it sort of, I

5:40

think forever, took a little

5:45

bit of what purists love about

5:47

the sport away. Yeah. So

5:49

I'm so late into the F1 obsession.

5:52

The first racing I started actually

5:54

loving was MotoGP, probably 20

5:57

years ago. So very into

5:59

MotoGP. I would watch

6:01

F1 occasionally, I'm like, this is

6:03

the stupidest sport. They don't ever

6:05

pass, nothing happens, and

6:08

then I'm a drive to survive convert. Now,

6:10

have you watched the last couple of seasons?

6:12

Yes. I've watched every... And

6:14

do you think it's horrible? No, I love it. Oh my God,

6:16

I think you hate it. You can't stand how bad it is.

6:18

Oh my Lord, what's your issue? It's boring

6:20

as hell. It's like a bunch of

6:23

nonsense you don't care about. What did

6:25

the first seasons have that the latter

6:27

ones don't have? I mean, I

6:29

think that the first three

6:31

seasons still kind of

6:33

focused on the racing, and I

6:35

feel like they're trying a little

6:37

too hard now to make it

6:40

about the off track drama. The

6:42

reality showness of it? Yeah, yeah.

6:45

Yeah. I think some people, I

6:47

mean, there are clearly some people who like Max, I love

6:49

Max's approach to it, which is, I don't give a shit.

6:51

Yeah, I'm not participating. Get out of my way. But

6:54

then there's too many people who are trying a little

6:56

too hard. I won't name names, but... Sure, sure. You

6:58

were just close to one of them recently. So

7:01

the first season, initially, I was like,

7:03

hold on a second. Mercedes

7:05

budget is $400 or $500 million a year. That's

7:09

the first thing that really got me, where I

7:11

was like, this is enormous on a scale that

7:13

I didn't even know was possible. Relative

7:15

to NASCAR or Indy or Moto

7:17

GB, anything. It's 20x

7:20

the budget of any other racing. So I was like,

7:22

oh, that's really fascinating. And

7:24

finding out about the aerodynamicists and how

7:26

relevant they are in it and just

7:28

how high tech it is, all that

7:31

interests me. I love the technical aspect

7:33

of that sport enormously. What

7:35

I think this show still does

7:38

great is it really shows you

7:40

the drama that's existing between 14th

7:43

and 8th place, which when I'm

7:45

watching normal season, I'm largely missing

7:47

that. I'm vaguely aware that

7:50

Pierre and Ocon hate each other, but

7:52

not in the way that like a

7:54

whole season can get me or a

7:56

whole episode. And so I

7:58

think the show's really... good at letting

8:01

you know how much drama still

8:03

happening below eighth place. How important

8:05

it is that these teams finishing

8:07

the points or to get one

8:09

point. So it's almost like

8:11

I rewatch the season now caring about all

8:13

the folks that aren't

8:15

on the podium. Yeah. I

8:17

don't know what changed for me. I feel like 2021,

8:19

2020 and 2021, where I think it's best seasons, actually

8:24

with Max and Lewis, the Max Lewis season

8:26

of 21 was exceptional. Yeah. Perfect time for

8:28

me to join the sport. The last two

8:31

episodes of that season were two of the

8:33

finest. The season before, I think honestly Man

8:35

on Fire, which was the Grosjean episode, which

8:38

I think was 2020. Yeah.

8:40

I think one of the best single

8:42

episodes ever. Obviously for those of us that

8:44

were watching that live, it was unbelievable.

8:48

It's something we'll talk about today, which

8:50

is when you're watching a

8:52

sport like F1 or MotoGP or

8:54

anything for that matter, like there is

8:56

a real chance a person could die and it's

8:59

really frightening when you see some of these accidents.

9:01

Yeah. But for the most part, I don't know

9:03

about you, for the most part, that's not even

9:05

on the table for me. And then

9:07

occasionally one of these things happen and I go, Oh,

9:09

that's right. They are going 205 miles an hour. It

9:12

doesn't really matter how you build this thing. There

9:15

is some likelihood that something. Well,

9:17

and maybe that's why, because I've

9:20

been a fan for so long, I still

9:22

have the visceral reaction to big shunts because

9:24

there was a day when those were almost

9:26

all fatal. Yes. Yeah.

9:29

I don't know what the chart is from

9:31

the seventies till now, but obviously it's just

9:33

been in a nose dive, right? I can

9:35

tell you basically in the mid 1960s until

9:37

the early 1980s. So

9:41

about a 16 year period of

9:43

time F1 was a killing

9:46

field. And that meant

9:48

that on average, probably two to four

9:50

drivers died a year. I

9:52

want you to think about that in the context

9:55

of what you watch today. But

9:57

you and I have been talking all week

9:59

about the many things. things that have changed

10:01

so dramatically that it's almost impossible to reconcile

10:04

that it used to be that way. We were

10:07

both watching Turning Point. Yeah. A

10:09

great doc, you recommended. And I'm watching it,

10:11

and again, I have awareness of this. I remember learning

10:13

this. But to learn that in one

10:15

night of bombing of Tokyo, 87,000 people died. That's

10:19

more than all of Vietnam by a factor of 30,000. One

10:23

night? And you're like, oh,

10:25

we don't have the appetite for any of

10:27

that stuff anymore. I don't think if the

10:29

sport two people were dying, that would be

10:32

one in 12 races, we would see someone

10:34

die. I just don't think it would exist

10:36

now. Right. And again, I

10:38

wasn't watching the sport during that period of

10:40

time, but not long after I was going

10:42

back and watching video of it. Yeah.

10:45

So when do you start watching it

10:47

religiously? In the 80s. Like

10:50

in the late 80s. You're a kid. Yeah. Anyone

10:52

your friends watching it with you or you're all

10:55

along on this? No, not really. It's not my

10:57

obsession. My obsession is much more boxing. Did your

10:59

dad watch it with you? No. And

11:02

then by the way, it was very hard to

11:04

watch live because again, another thing

11:06

you take for granted today, cable, you can

11:08

watch things whenever you want. Like back then

11:10

it was like always odd bizarre hours and

11:13

stuff like that. You would have to wake

11:15

up at 2am. Yeah, you catch it on delay. By

11:17

the way, when I got to med school and became

11:19

friends with a guy named Paul Conti, haven't you had

11:21

Paul on your show? I know that name. Yeah, I

11:24

feel like you might have. I mean, I've said that

11:26

0.800 people. I'm like starting to forget some names. Well,

11:28

anyway, Paul, who's no stranger to this show, when

11:31

we met first day of med school,

11:33

immediately connected over both our shared obsession

11:35

for F1 and first Senna, that

11:37

was like talking to a guy who was going through

11:39

kind of a similar experience of like, you know, watching

11:41

things at odd hours and things of that nature. But

11:43

just as the 80s was kind of a golden period

11:45

for boxing with the fact that you had Hearns,

11:48

Agler, Duran, Leonard, Wilford Benitez, like all

11:51

of these guys that each of them

11:53

are Hall of Famers and yet they

11:55

were all fighting each other all the

11:57

time in an era where it

11:59

meant something to be the middleweight champion of

12:01

the world or the welterweight champion of the

12:03

world. Julio Cesar Chavez. He was a little

12:05

bit later. Yeah. Yeah. Lightweight.

12:08

Yeah. A guy who fought 90

12:10

fights or something. Yeah. I mean, he was

12:12

undefeated into his 90 and fight. But F1 was like

12:14

that as well. So when you think about the 80s,

12:17

you had Nicki Lauda at the end of his career

12:19

still winning a championship in the mid 80s. And

12:22

then the arrival of Alan Prost,

12:24

Nigel Mansell, of course, Nelson Pique and

12:27

Fena. And so you

12:29

really have this golden era of F1, I

12:31

think, in the late 80s and early 90s

12:34

where it is insane depth

12:36

of talent. Also for

12:38

what it's worth, I just think the cars

12:40

were aesthetically, they're most beautiful during that period

12:42

of time. It's not that I don't think

12:44

the cars today are masterpieces. They're so tiny.

12:46

If you're me and you came into the

12:48

sport post hybrid area and now

12:50

you go, like I walked through McLaren,

12:53

through the Boulevard, and I'm like, oh,

12:55

they're go-karts. They were V10 go-karts.

12:57

They were just so small. Yeah, they

13:00

were 500 kilo cars back then. But

13:02

still could, with boost in

13:04

qualifying, could make over a thousand

13:07

horsepower. And a thousand pounds. Yeah. Wow.

13:10

Which is actually a really funny story that kind

13:13

of brings us to Senna, which is there are

13:15

many things that made Senna special, but his qualifying

13:18

is the most remarkable

13:20

thing. If you look at his

13:22

record, so by today's standards, Senna wasn't

13:24

around very long. Most of the drivers on the F1

13:26

grid today have already had more races than Senna did

13:28

when he died. He died in his 161st race. So

13:33

Max is only 26 years old. He's long

13:35

past that number of races, right? Lewis is

13:37

at more than 2x that number of races.

13:40

And yet Senna's qualifying

13:42

percentage, how many times was

13:44

he on pole position in there? Nobody's

13:46

within a country mile. In 65 poles? Yeah,

13:48

in 161 races. That kind of

13:50

framed it for me because, again, I only

13:53

know that he won three titles. Only

13:55

four. I'm going to explain to you why.

13:57

He had one stolen from him. But yeah, with the not turning

13:59

around. around in the turnoff area? Yeah,

14:02

sure, four. But obviously

14:04

Schumacher's record, Lewis's record, some of

14:06

these records, it begs

14:08

the question why is this the guy everyone's

14:10

so obsessed with? Because he what, had 10

14:12

years in? Yeah, yeah, I've got 10 years.

14:14

But when I saw that 65 polls

14:18

stat, I was like, okay,

14:20

that's very telling. That says a lot.

14:23

But before you explain that to me, I want

14:25

to know, it would appear that, and this is

14:27

another thing I've come to love about F1 is

14:30

P1 in qualifying to P20

14:32

is often three-tenths of

14:36

a second, usually a little

14:38

bit more. Let's just say,

14:40

and they're in the top five, it's

14:43

the first three are often in the

14:45

hundredths of seconds. And then maybe six

14:47

is a tenth. The

14:50

margin is so unfathomable. People really, just

14:52

take a stopwatch if you've ever taken

14:54

a stopwatch and just try to double

14:56

click it as fast as you can.

14:59

And you'll start realizing how tiny a hundredths of a

15:01

second that you can't even get a hundredths of a

15:03

second. I used to play this game as a kid.

15:05

It was one of my favorite games. Me too, on the Casio watches. Absolutely, yeah.

15:08

It didn't class. What was your minimum? I

15:10

think my minimum was like 11 or 14 100ths I

15:12

think I could get to. I can't even remember. I

15:14

just remember all of us in a circle like, doing

15:16

it over and over again. So I'm going, boy, oh,

15:18

hey. And that's all freaking out. But

15:20

the notion that you have 10 different

15:23

teams with 10 different approaches, 20

15:25

different drivers. I

15:28

mean, the amount of variables on

15:30

the table are incalculable, yet

15:32

you slam it all together and somehow it's all

15:34

within a second or it's all within three tenths

15:36

of a second or hundredths of a second. That

15:39

part is, I think, almost incomprehensible.

15:41

I think in the 80s, the Delta

15:43

was much bigger, yeah? Not

15:45

necessarily. And by the way, the

15:47

Delta between teammates is the Delta

15:50

that matters. That's where you're

15:52

seeing the Delta between drivers. Yes. Let's

15:55

use my favorite example, which is arguably considered

15:57

one of the most epic legendary stories of

15:59

Senna. which is qualifying for the 1988 Monaco race. So

16:03

at this point, Senna is the rookie on the team.

16:06

This is in the MP4.4. The car that

16:08

to this day is regarded as the greatest car

16:10

ever in F1. This is what you have a

16:13

replica of. This is this car here. Yes. Yep.

16:16

I'm shocked you don't have that tattoo, but we'll talk

16:19

about that later at some point. We should discuss that.

16:21

That would, imagine that down my back. Yeah. It

16:24

would be glorious. Your wife would be so excited.

16:26

So that car won 15 of 16 races. Between

16:30

he and Prose. Yep. And the

16:32

race that it didn't win, Senna got taken out

16:34

by a back marker. So it's like they would have won 16

16:37

of 16 races. So the

16:39

closest we've seen to that is last year's Red

16:41

Bull, which won all but one

16:43

race. But the reason most people would still

16:45

argue that that was the technically superior car

16:48

was the race that Red Bull did not win

16:50

last year, which was Singapore. They

16:52

didn't lose because of some fluke. The car

16:54

legitimately couldn't put it there. And perform in

16:56

Singapore because of the bumps in the road

16:58

and the ride height. So Senna's

17:00

the rookie on the team. Prost

17:02

is the two-time world champion, the reigning world

17:04

champion. They're at Monaco, which

17:07

is generally regarded as the most difficult

17:09

circuit. The margin for error is non-existent.

17:11

Another feather in his cap, right? He's

17:13

got the most wins at Monaco. He

17:15

has won Monaco six times, officially seven

17:18

times if you include what happened in

17:20

1984, which we can talk

17:22

about. Yeah. This is where he puts it into the wall,

17:24

the 56th. No, that's in 88. In 1984,

17:26

what happened was he started at the back

17:28

of the field. He was in a tollman,

17:30

a piece of garbage car. In rain. But

17:33

it was raining like cats and dogs. And of course, the other

17:35

thing that makes Senna very special, we keep adding

17:37

to why is he special. No

17:39

one could ever drive like he could in the rain. That's

17:41

the real marker. Like a free standard deviation. Yeah.

17:44

So you've got a field of world champions

17:47

in superior cars in front of him as

17:49

a rookie, not just a team rookie. His

17:51

F1 rookie year, 1984. He's

17:54

in the tollman. He's driving a garbage

17:56

truck back there, but it starts raining

17:58

cats and dogs and he. He is

18:01

by two-thirds of the way through the

18:03

race, he is closing in on Alain

18:06

Prost and in the final lap of

18:08

what would become the final lap he

18:10

passes him, but Ray Stewart's

18:12

decide to halt the race at the

18:14

preceding lap and he is still awarded

18:16

second place which is unfathomable

18:18

as his first podium. The first major

18:21

fucking he receives from the FIA, right?

18:23

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

18:26

This would become a pattern. So,

18:28

Monaco is the hardest track to pass

18:30

on in the whole calendar.

18:32

Today it's impossible to pass on. Back

18:34

in the day, you could pass. You

18:36

could. Cars were smaller. I would

18:39

not advocate for getting rid of Monaco, but

18:41

one could make a case that the cars

18:43

have outgrown the circuit. Right. But

18:45

Monaco to this day is still one of

18:47

the most exciting qualifying. Oh, by far. Yeah,

18:49

because the stakes are so high. So

18:52

in 1988, Senna not

18:55

only qualifies on pole, something

18:57

he would do repeatedly, he

18:59

does so by a margin

19:02

that is deemed impossible to

19:04

comprehend. They have to

19:06

remember who his teammate is. His teammate

19:08

is arguably one of the greatest drivers

19:10

of all time, Alain Prost, driving the

19:12

same car and he out qualifies him.

19:14

Do you know how much? No. 1.47

19:17

seconds. Wow. 1.47 seconds is a day

19:19

and a half. Three

19:22

through the three qualities. Back then, it quality

19:24

ran a little bit differently. Okay.

19:28

And so Senna was already on pole when he decided he wanted to

19:30

go out and do one more lap. It's

19:32

the stuff of F1 lore because the

19:34

lap was not captured on camera. So

19:37

this was back when cameras were on cars,

19:39

kind of in its infancy. But

19:41

because, you know, back then you didn't have

19:43

endless amounts of streaming video, like the TV

19:45

station had to decide who were we going

19:47

to focus on this lap. And because Senna

19:49

was already on pole, they didn't record the

19:51

lap. Sure, sure. So all you have

19:53

is the time sheet. He went this fast and he

19:55

was out of this world. So then the next day

19:58

in the race, he is leading. By

20:00

so much. That. The

20:03

team is telling him to slow down, neither

20:05

begging begging in the slowdown. This is like

20:07

there might have been eight laps now, as

20:09

had by thirty seconds. Yeah, I

20:11

just recently watched the thing and that

20:14

the pointy crash. he was sixty six

20:16

seconds ahead of prose. Yeah, now. yeah,

20:18

he could push the car to the

20:20

finish line. Still one yeah, and he

20:23

lost concentration for a nanosecond a very

20:25

rare event in his life, and crashed

20:27

and then devastated. So. Enmeshed

20:30

in the self low these so angry

20:32

that he literally got out of the

20:34

car through his stuff and went to

20:36

his opposes apartment with a different three

20:38

hour yeah fuck up and nobody could

20:40

find them as if if you hear

20:42

ya Joe Ramirez I think Eventually went

20:45

and found him and his housekeeper had

20:47

to let him in because she was

20:49

instructed to tell everyone that he was

20:51

not around. The.

20:53

Ah, that's just an accent. Example and

20:55

everything about Center during qualifying is the

20:57

reason he was so good at qualifying,

20:59

especially in that era is the cars

21:01

and that air. It ran a much

21:03

higher horse power during qualifying. Okay, right,

21:05

they dialed on my own a doll

21:07

them away up in a way that

21:09

they don't. do it today. Today you're

21:11

not playing with that. Today you're playing

21:13

with tires, fuel load, and battery pack.

21:15

So basically today and a quality set

21:17

up, you can discharge battery much more

21:19

and you basically aim to finish on

21:21

fumes and know battery life. To.

21:24

But back then it was a totally

21:26

different. more power and you couldn't race

21:28

or that horsepower could viewed in other

21:30

reliability. And truthfully a lot of drivers

21:32

including Prost including Lotta were like to

21:34

freaking dangerous man for the I at

21:36

way too much. Yeah at some point

21:38

right then and twelve and fourteen hundred

21:40

horsepower certainly did One hundred Yeah yeah

21:42

yeah. These. Are naturally aspirated

21:45

V Tens B Twelve compression must

21:47

have been. Ear. Splitting.

21:49

I. Think at some point these things were red

21:51

lining up to eighteen thousand rpm if he can

21:53

believe that. Know I mean that even the physics

21:56

of as possible in a car out of of

21:58

the a nervy ten probably the be tens. Probably

22:00

team. I mean, that's more than arming

22:02

motorcycle motor reps to enter the zebra.

22:04

Guys told us they were up to

22:06

eighteen thousand dinner. Love. You

22:08

recall, there wasn't really consensus when the

22:11

person said that. Ah, Yeah. One

22:13

guy said eighteen and other guy said sexy

22:15

i but I don't know. I don't know.

22:17

I think it's more around fifteen, but whatever.

22:20

Array, it's just me or out of

22:23

off. it's terrifying Center has. So there's

22:25

the record. There's. The Dying Or

22:27

Lame Three: James Dean. There's a

22:29

lot of elements that bolster people's

22:32

fascination with them. For

22:34

me. I. Like him

22:36

because he seemed like an outsider. The Brazilian, this

22:38

of it all. Makes me like a

22:40

more. But. Also and are

22:43

not comfortable You're going me with this word. He's.

22:45

Very sexy. He's. A very

22:48

Mick Jagger kind of a rock

22:50

star. Sexy, aloof, always focused, and

22:52

not really a people pleaser. There's

22:55

I think there's an added element

22:57

why we love Santa. These.

23:00

Intangibles that are in about the record

23:02

and I wonder what personality wise you

23:04

think of him? Well it's really funny

23:06

because. I. Would bet that you

23:08

have examples where you. Will

23:11

relate to what I'm about to say

23:13

which is I think growing up. And

23:15

threw his life and death. It was mostly

23:18

about cent of the racer. It's

23:20

after his death. I've learned much more about

23:22

him because remember, he died in Nineteen Ninety

23:24

Four. I was in college when he died.

23:27

When. He died. I didn't have an

23:29

internet to read more about. So.

23:31

Much of what I know about him today. Is

23:34

based on things I can read that I couldn't

23:36

read. Then. Also. I've become

23:38

close to people who knew him well

23:41

and so I can now learn about

23:43

him as a person. I know

23:45

things about him that aren't publicly known. I've.

23:47

Met his family my know his nice

23:49

quite well. I've met his brother who

23:51

is obviously one of the few people

23:53

that was there when he died in

23:55

Italy that day. Joseph Labour who was

23:57

his trainer who was in a one.

24:00

The closest people to him. So in

24:02

many ways, my appreciation for him today

24:04

is ten fold what it was when

24:06

I just evaluated him through a lens.

24:08

The other thing that you alluded to

24:10

his. I didn't really appreciate

24:12

as I don't think many people did

24:14

at the time of his life. What

24:16

he meant to Brazilians probably out it's

24:18

outrageous and and and assign more, Brazil

24:20

was struggling beyond belief. Yeah, So just

24:22

to give you an example of that

24:24

was you know my youngest son is

24:27

named after him. Any. Time

24:29

we encounter a person from

24:31

Brazil. Who. Discovers that fact

24:33

Now. It's. Like everything.

24:36

Come into my house for food?

24:38

Yeah, yeah, and for someone in

24:40

Brazil. If you're over

24:42

the age of thirty five today,

24:45

You. Take. J. F K

24:47

Nine Eleven City and Windsor.

24:49

Yeah the her. That's what

24:52

May first Nineteen ninety Four

24:54

was because the entire country

24:56

every Sunday would stop to

24:58

watch this. It's not like

25:00

the Nfl here where a lot

25:02

of people watch it. No, no,

25:04

no, no, no. this was the

25:06

religion. Yes, the country stops. Yeah,

25:08

everybody watches. There was a Brazilian.on

25:10

planet Earth. That's right. Yeah, Yeah.

25:13

In fact, and because of the religious culture

25:15

of Brazil, right? it's a Catholic country. Honestly,

25:17

there's so much religious symbolism and I think

25:19

he is the closest thing to a deity

25:22

for the people there. And by the ways

25:24

you know, a close second is Japan. Oh

25:27

really yeah? Why do you suppose?

25:29

Because. Of the relationship with Honda, So.

25:31

All three of his titles were

25:34

in a Honda powered cars and

25:36

the engineers at Honda. Loved

25:38

him! He was also other. As

25:42

I imagine the Japanese cell And tareen?

25:44

yeah, have one. Yeah. There.

25:46

Are a lot of Brazilians where he's one

25:49

of three may be Brazilian of well as

25:51

a really interesting so Nelson Piquet who is

25:53

also Brazilian also a three time champion. One

25:55

of my favorite things to do whenever I

25:57

meet someone from Brazil who's old enough is

25:59

to. Hey we got his you're talking about

26:01

center bubble bath what do you think? a

26:03

Pk and they're all like piece of shit.

26:05

Oh really I can't stand them because he

26:07

deserted the blaze or our he was like

26:09

not proud of what he was. He was

26:11

also very unkind to Santa. He referred to

26:14

him as the homosexual from Sao Paolo Alto.

26:16

he didn't use that word for keeping. Imagine

26:18

what he says sir saw mag when you

26:20

can let those rip your the album day

26:22

know I'm all yours sponsors here in a

26:24

Pk. Was very jealous of Center because of

26:26

how much Center was love but Center was

26:28

loved because of how much he loved. Back

26:30

he was yeah so proud of Brazil

26:32

rights of every time he wins the

26:34

race Brazilian flag as out and he

26:36

loved result In One thing people didn't

26:38

know about him until after he died

26:40

was how much money he was pouring

26:42

into education and Brazil. Yet

26:44

so how did their salaries

26:47

back then compared to current

26:49

salaries? When. You adjust for

26:52

inflation. Probably reasonable if you are

26:54

at the very very top. so.

26:56

Center was making a million dollars

26:59

race. Or race. Yup, And

27:01

doing sixteen race younger. That's

27:03

just base salary. That's. Not

27:05

that far off from what I mean.

27:08

Max is the highest paid guy in

27:10

F One today. I believe he's making

27:12

fifty million Euros. Ah so and keeping

27:14

fifty million heterosis and I'm in a

27:16

Monaco? Yeah, and he's any her this

27:19

Arizona. he really got a double at

27:21

the same you're trying to com but

27:23

to like baseball players or football players?

27:25

Yeah, yeah yeah. Center of course. Also

27:27

had many sponsors right? so so he

27:29

was loaded. He. Has a family

27:32

was already loaded. He came from

27:34

a wealthy family he was not

27:36

without but he probably made. Somewhere.

27:39

On the order of a quarter of a

27:41

billion dollars in his lifetime have in the

27:44

eighties and nine? Yeah, wow, That's impressive. I.

27:46

Have to imagine there's some. Archetype

27:49

about him that you like

27:51

beyond the racing. And. I'm

27:53

wondering. Is it the outside Nes classic?

27:55

It's the fact that he was. look

27:58

if we're going to get really deep and fellas I

28:00

think it's that he's flawed. He's

28:02

not a perfect person and nor

28:04

did he try to represent himself as that,

28:07

right? Like he could be overly

28:09

emotional and I think

28:11

even though it's very sad, I'm

28:13

sure we will talk about his death in detail I

28:17

don't believe the most commonly

28:19

held view of his death,

28:21

which was that it resulted from this deer

28:23

in column failure I actually don't think that's

28:25

what happened. Oh, really? No, you have a

28:27

different take I do have a different take

28:29

although I used to for many years for

28:31

probably 26 years I

28:34

believe that he died because the steering column failed.

28:36

I Thought I had heard

28:38

that like is it an aileron? What is

28:40

the piece that was on the suspension that

28:42

that had come off? Oh, I'm sorry. That's

28:45

what actually killed him. Oh, not in dispute.

28:47

Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is why

28:49

did he crash? Why did he crash?

28:51

Yes. Okay. Yes, and people have said

28:53

I don't even know this that the

28:55

steering column failed Yes, so the conventional

28:57

view the widely held view of Senna's

29:00

death So maybe just to tell people

29:02

how the circumstances of the death So

29:04

he was in a race called Imola which

29:07

took place on a horrible horrible

29:09

weekend April 29th April

29:11

30th and May 1st 1994

29:14

going back to something we talked about earlier. There had not been

29:16

a death in F1 Since

29:18

Jill Villeneuve died in 1982 now 12 years later

29:20

on that Friday During

29:25

the first practice another

29:27

Brazilian driver Rubens Barrichello

29:30

has a Brutal crash

29:32

he's just laying in the fucking

29:34

well right away So what's amazing

29:36

is he was only concussed and

29:38

split open but actually survived Senna

29:41

was shaken up that was in practice. There's

29:44

an FP one Senna was this

29:46

was like a kid that he was

29:48

mentoring Okay, and he saw him

29:50

in the hospital and was very shaken up the

29:53

next day rookie

29:56

Roland Ratzenberger who Senna

29:58

also had taken under his wing

30:01

and had actually introduced that weekend

30:03

to Joseph Leberer, his physio, who

30:05

was also Austrian. Roland was Austrian

30:07

and Joseph was Austrian, so Senna

30:09

had introduced him that weekend. Roland

30:11

was killed in practice

30:14

that weekend. This was the

30:16

first death in F1 in

30:18

12 years. Wow. I'm going

30:20

to tell you a weird sidebar to this. So do

30:23

you know Craig T. Nelson? Yeah.

30:25

He was racing that weekend there. He

30:27

was at that race. He raced

30:29

prototypes for years. Oh,

30:31

I didn't know that. Oh, he was so, so...

30:33

He paved Willow Springs at one point when he

30:36

was on coach. He has

30:38

a lap record and a prototype there. It

30:41

was his life. He spent every penny from

30:43

coach on racing and he was there that

30:45

weekend, weirdly. Wow. Yeah, racing.

30:47

And he said it was quite an eerie

30:49

weekend as well. Yeah. There are so

30:51

many things about that weekend that are really upsetting. One

30:54

of them is that the race should

30:56

have been canceled after Roland's death. So

30:58

if a driver dies on the track

31:01

in Italy, the law is the

31:03

race is done. Oh, really? Yes.

31:06

Roland died on the track, but the organizers

31:08

of the race wanted the race to go

31:10

on, so they airlifted him out of there

31:12

to pronounce him dead at a hospital. Oh,

31:14

wow. But they were doing cardiac

31:17

massage on him at the track. He was

31:19

absolutely dead. Senna against

31:22

the instructions of the marshals

31:24

got into a car, drove to where

31:27

he died and was reprimanded

31:29

terribly for doing so. Joseph

31:32

told me that night he'd

31:35

never seen Senna more angry in the

31:37

entire time he knew him than that

31:39

evening because of how pissed he

31:41

was at how the marshals had been so

31:43

angry at him for going to see Roland

31:45

at the site of the accident. That

31:48

was the pattern of his. He also had

31:50

gone out on P1 and stood where that

31:52

had happened. That's a thing he did. This

31:55

is the thing about Senna that's also an interesting

31:57

paradox. On the one hand, he was the most

31:59

competitive. And he did things at

32:01

times and we can talk about things where

32:04

he's literally put other drivers and his own

32:06

life's in danger out of pure competitive drive

32:09

and yet he would be the first person to stop

32:11

and rescue you and help you

32:13

if you were hurt. Joseph

32:15

was telling me he was so angry.

32:17

He said, how dare they tell me

32:19

I can't go onto track to see

32:21

a driver who is injured and ultimately

32:23

dead when they don't care that we're driving

32:25

around here. Like in other words, don't

32:27

tell me who's taking the risk. I

32:29

take the risk. You don't take the

32:31

risk. You can grant me this. Yeah.

32:34

No problem. And so Ratzenberger dies. That should

32:36

have been the end of Imola. Senna

32:39

should still be alive. He shouldn't have died the

32:41

next day because the race should have been canceled.

32:43

Is it also relevant? This is race

32:46

number two of the three of the season. Three

32:48

and he hates his car. Hates

32:50

the car. He had gone to Williams

32:52

thinking he was going to get the

32:54

electronically adjusted suspension that gets taken away.

32:56

Right. So Senna in

32:58

1988 arrives at McLaren. He's driving for what

33:01

is the best team. By the way, this

33:03

is another interesting metric. I'll come back to

33:05

this point. When people say,

33:07

well, you got to just look at the stats.

33:09

Lewis has the most wins and Schumacher and Lewis

33:11

have the most titles. I'm like, put all that

33:13

stuff aside. There are other metrics, even if you

33:15

just look at the length of life. Senna

33:18

was only in the best car four out

33:20

of the 10 years he raced. So

33:22

you all have to look at how many years

33:25

was a driver in the best car. All of

33:27

these things factor into it. So Senna is in

33:29

the best car in 88, 89, 90, 91. He

33:32

wins three of the titles in those four years, although

33:34

he should have gotten four. He should have had four

33:36

out of the four. And

33:38

then the tide changes. This is always

33:41

the case in F1. There's a regulation

33:43

change and the power shift happens. And

33:45

at this point, the power shifts from

33:47

McLaren to Williams. So in 92 and

33:50

93, Williams was so technically superior to

33:52

not just McLaren, but everyone else on

33:54

the field. And Senna

33:56

wanted to go. Frank Williams, the owner of

33:58

the Williams team, had always loved

34:00

Senna, always loved him. He was one

34:02

of the first people to see Senna race coming

34:05

out of Formula 4, all of these

34:07

other lower classes, but there just wasn't

34:09

a seat on the team at the

34:11

time. And he got prost, specifically I

34:13

won't race. Right, so Mansell races for

34:16

Williams in 92, wins the title, immediately

34:19

retires. Prost comes out of retirement,

34:21

takes the seat for 93. Williams

34:25

says great, we'll bring out Senna and Prost

34:27

says no way. My contract has a clause

34:29

that says I'll never race with Senna as

34:31

a teammate again. So Senna spends one

34:34

more year at McLaren. Funny

34:36

story there by the way is

34:38

he was having a contract holdup

34:41

with McLaren and to sort

34:43

of flex his muscles a little bit he

34:45

came to the US, did a day of

34:47

testing in IndyCar. Oh really? And actually

34:50

was driving faster by the end of

34:52

his first day of testing than any

34:54

of the IndyCar drivers were driving. Wow,

34:56

because that transference hasn't gone as well

34:58

in the last 20 years when F1

35:00

drivers have gone to Indy. It's

35:02

hard. I mean IndyCar has really done well.

35:05

But he didn't do as well as you

35:07

would have expected given that Alonso basically won

35:09

the 24 hours of Le Mans, his first

35:11

crack out there. Yeah, yeah. So Prost retires

35:14

at the end of 93. We should

35:16

come back to the last race of 93 at

35:19

Adelaide with Senna and Prost on the

35:21

podium together. And then finally

35:23

Senna gets his wish, which is

35:25

he finally gets to go to Williams. He finally gets

35:27

to go to the team that has won the last

35:30

two titles and basically will be the most dominant car

35:32

for the next four years, although nobody knows it at

35:34

the time. But perhaps

35:36

unbeknownst to Senna, because

35:38

the F1 that year had taken

35:40

a pretty hard rule change and

35:43

removed what's called active suspension,

35:46

the car for the beginning of the 94 season

35:48

was an undrivable technical

35:51

debacle. Yeah, because they're scrambling to reinvent their

35:53

entire suspension at that point, right? Right. I

35:55

think I just got to ditch everything. Right.

35:58

So I've become really good friends with Damon

36:00

Hill, who was his teammate that year. And

36:03

I actually had Damon on the podcast probably five

36:05

years ago and he's just such

36:07

an incredible human being. I think Damon's

36:09

one of the most underrated world champions in F1. Damon

36:12

won the world championship in 1995. He's

36:14

the son of Graham Hill, a

36:16

two-time world champion, making him one of only

36:18

two father-son F1 champions. You

36:21

know, and I've talked at length with Damon about what that

36:23

car was like at the beginning of the 94 season. Damon

36:26

drove it in 93, so he knew what

36:28

that car was like when it was the best

36:30

car ever. And then he

36:32

knew what it was like later. And Damon basically

36:34

said, look, the car was

36:37

goddamn undrivable. It was so

36:39

scary. It was like being on

36:41

a knife's edge every minute

36:43

of every lap of every

36:46

drive. He said he

36:48

just pulled way back. So again, maybe

36:50

for people watching us who don't understand what it's like to

36:52

drive a race car, the goal of driving a race car

36:54

is to be at the limit of the car. You're

36:57

always at the limit of what the car can

36:59

do. And Damon was like,

37:01

you couldn't drive that car near the limit.

37:03

It was so unpredictable. Yeah, if you got

37:05

within 10 yards of the limit, the car

37:07

would flip you into another planet. But

37:09

Senna still managed to drive it close to

37:11

limit. So in the first race of that

37:14

year, which was in Brazil, Senna

37:16

gets on pole. It's hard to imagine

37:18

how he could put that car on pole, but it was

37:20

like wrestling that car into pole

37:22

position. He's in pole, he's

37:24

leading that race. And then with

37:27

a few laps to go, he actually spins out on a corner.

37:30

Just couldn't control this thing. So

37:32

next race, he again gets it on

37:34

pole. It's not clear how he could

37:36

put that car on pole again. And by

37:38

the way, he's got Michael Schumacher, a young

37:41

Michael Schumacher, just biting at his

37:43

heels. And he's in the McLaren. Oh, he's

37:45

in the Benetton. Yeah. Oh,

37:47

right. Yeah. And that

37:49

was kind of the best car that year. Yeah. And it

37:51

was a controversy about whether that car was

37:53

cheating that year. He had believed it had

37:55

traction control. That's right. And it probably did.

37:58

It's weird that they would be able to hide. that. Yeah.

38:01

Oh, yeah. I know. Yeah. In

38:04

that race, he's on pole, but he gets hit from

38:06

behind first corner. He's out of that race.

38:09

So now we go into Imola. Remember, this is a 16 race season.

38:13

Two races are down and he has

38:15

zero points. Schumacher has won both of

38:17

those races. He's got 20 points. Yeah.

38:20

So he's feeling the weight of

38:22

the world on his shoulders. He has to be perfect for

38:24

the rest of the... He has to be perfect for the

38:26

rest of the season. And certainly he has to win this

38:28

race in Imola. Non-negotiable. Now, I've been to

38:30

that point in time. Senna already has the record

38:32

for most wins at Imola. This is a circuit

38:35

he knows well. It's a very

38:37

hard circuit. I actually just started

38:39

driving it in the simulator a few months ago, getting

38:41

ready for my trip out there. And

38:44

it's tough. I

38:46

remember, was it two years ago,

38:48

three? It was just an entire

38:51

yard sale lap one, then a

38:53

complete restart, then another yard sale.

38:55

That one has spectacular crashes. Everything

38:57

goes wrong, right? So you start

38:59

out with what we

39:01

talked about. On Friday, you've got Berra

39:04

Kello nearly dies. On Saturday,

39:07

Ratzenberger dies. Senna

39:09

is in no mood to drive on

39:11

Sunday. So that

39:14

Saturday night is Joseph's

39:16

birthday. Joseph Lebir. His birthday is

39:18

April 30th. These guys always celebrate

39:20

Joseph's birthday. And on that

39:22

night, they're out at a pizza place.

39:25

Obviously, it's just the most somber mood, and

39:27

they're not celebrating anything. And

39:30

Senna is incredibly angry about

39:32

the scolding he took for

39:34

going to see Ratzenberger. And

39:36

he is very unhappy with the car,

39:39

doesn't feel that the car is safe.

39:41

That day, he had spoken with Nicky

39:44

Lauda, and Nicky had encouraged him as

39:46

now the most senior driver in F1,

39:48

now that Prost had retired, that he

39:50

needed to bring back the driver's association

39:53

for safety. Okay, so that

39:55

didn't exist at that? It had sort of fallen by

39:57

the wayside. This is something that Jackie Stewart

39:59

had led. said in the early 1970s when

40:01

the driver sort of said enough is enough, like

40:03

we can't just be dying at this rate. Every

40:05

other weekend. We have to take safety. We have

40:08

to make it a high priority. And

40:10

so Senna agreed that the

40:12

next race at Monaco, they would

40:14

reinitiate the driver's safety sort

40:17

of group. And Senna said

40:19

to Joseph that night that it was like kind of

40:21

the first time ever he didn't want to race. Didn't

40:24

want to really race the next day. And

40:26

Joseph said to me, goes, look, no

40:28

one will fault you if you don't right now.

40:31

And Senna said, there's no way I can't

40:33

race. The people of

40:35

Brazil need this and

40:38

they're hurting way more than I am. So

40:41

you ask me like, why am I obsessed with

40:43

this guy? It's kind of like the death wish

40:45

in a way, but also realizing like it's bigger

40:47

than him. He really felt like I

40:50

don't want to do this. I don't feel safe doing this,

40:52

but there's a hundred million people

40:54

who need me to do this and

40:57

they're in worse shape than I am. Did

40:59

you read The Fountainhead ever? Mm-hmm.

41:01

Mm. Because this would

41:04

be a good parallel. The people I read

41:06

The Fountainhead loved it. The lead character is

41:08

roughly based on the architect

41:10

Frank Lloyd Wright. But

41:13

he is a man who always

41:16

knew what he wanted, always had

41:18

a vision, never compromised, pissed a

41:20

lot of people off, Howard

41:22

Rourke, but ultimately was always

41:24

right. And I think that archetype,

41:27

when you're a young man, is

41:29

incredibly appealing. It was to me. Like,

41:32

yeah, maybe I just, I know what's right.

41:35

I don't have to listen to anyone else and then I'll be

41:37

proven I'm right at the end of it. And

41:39

I just wonder how much of his

41:41

high level of disagreeability, wouldn't you think? Oh,

41:44

yeah. Crost was great at playing the

41:46

political game. The head of the FIA

41:49

was also French, clearly was

41:51

helping him the whole, with

41:53

every dispute between he and Senna. And

41:56

Senna was just so

41:58

disagreeable and outspoken. and

42:00

didn't give a shit if anyone liked him. Is

42:02

that part of his personality? Yes, but also there

42:05

was a, it's

42:07

I'm gonna win or it doesn't matter.

42:09

So Prost's nickname was the Professor. The

42:12

reason for that was, among

42:14

other things, he was very

42:16

smart and very strategic and

42:18

very calculating. And if

42:20

he was in a race and he

42:22

was in third place, he

42:25

would think to himself logically, I'm

42:27

playing the long game here, which is I'm

42:29

better off coming in third and getting my

42:32

six or seven or eight points here.

42:35

If I don't think I can win, Senna

42:37

only wanted to win. He

42:39

would crash out of a race to

42:42

take a shot at winning. He just

42:44

didn't care for second, third or fourth. Well, the

42:46

Monaco incident that we already talked about where he

42:48

was 60 seconds out ahead and

42:50

puts it into a wall. In

42:53

his own description of that race, which

42:55

is kind of appealing is he

42:58

was on a perfect drive, spiritually.

43:02

He was on a perfect drive. He

43:04

wasn't competing against anybody else. He was

43:06

competing against what perfection could be. He

43:08

was getting very close to having raced

43:11

the perfect race and could feel it

43:13

and could not stop pushing because it

43:15

was within his touch, her grasp.

43:19

To see that someone is in

43:21

pursuit of something that's even higher

43:23

than first place is appealing as

43:25

a character type. But there's

43:27

some punk rockness to him that I also

43:29

think is in this stew for you. I'm

43:32

guessing. Yeah, look,

43:34

I think you're just a record junkie. I

43:37

think if you're a record junkie, you would

43:39

just have to have Lewis as your favorite

43:41

driver. If you're

43:44

just looking at numbers or

43:46

Schumacher. So here's an analogy. I don't know how

43:49

much you cared for football when you were growing

43:51

up, but Barry Sanders doesn't

43:53

have the records. He's not

43:55

the leading rusher. He doesn't have the most yards.

43:57

He doesn't have the most touchdowns. He has no

43:59

super. Super Bowls. Like, by

44:02

any statistic, Barry Sanders is

44:04

not actually the best. Right.

44:06

But he was. But he was. My son, who's obsessed

44:09

with football and we read football books every night, I've

44:11

already explained to him 10 ways to Sunday, Barry Sanders

44:13

was the greatest running back of all times. Yes.

44:17

Because there are intangible factions. And he would bench

44:19

himself as well, just shy of a record. Yeah. Didn't

44:21

care about the records, actually. Yes, he truly didn't. Didn't

44:23

want to be in the public eye. Yeah. Yeah.

44:26

But- He's impressive. He's the

44:29

greatest running back of all time. Even though

44:31

statistically there were many that were superior. And

44:33

I think with Senna, there's a characteristic of

44:35

his driving. And I do think most

44:38

drivers would agree he's the greatest

44:40

of all time. I would

44:42

bet that if you polled current

44:45

and past F1 drivers- Do you think Max

44:47

would say so? You know, that's interesting. I

44:49

don't know if Max would say- Because I

44:51

feel like Max would say Schumacher. Well I

44:53

know Seb would say Schumacher. I'm close with

44:56

Seb. And Schumacher, we must acknowledge, is on

44:58

another planet. Yeah, look, I think

45:00

you could make a case that the three greatest

45:02

of all time would be Senna,

45:05

Schumacher, and maybe Max. Yeah.

45:08

We might be getting to the point where we

45:10

can start to say Max is in the top

45:12

three. I'm new to it. So of course I'm

45:14

intoxicated with the flavor of the day. But Max,

45:16

to me, even when I watch different

45:18

documentaries or learn the history of other

45:21

drivers, he definitely is

45:23

ahead of everyone else. I

45:25

mean, there's a kid who came in a week after

45:27

his 17th birthday, won a race at 17. I

45:30

mean, that's inconceivable. Yeah.

45:32

I struggle to figure this out myself because

45:35

like where does Fangio belong in all of

45:37

this? Like, it's not just that he won

45:39

five titles. It's are you judging a driver

45:41

against his peers? Because if so,

45:44

Fangio was really, I mean,

45:46

five titles in four cars. Right.

45:49

It didn't matter what car you put him in. He was going to win

45:51

the title. Right. And it becomes the same

45:53

challenge as evaluating boxers

45:56

because you really have to look at who

45:58

they were fighting. Right. I think

46:00

Ali gets such a huge bump when you

46:02

think about how formidable Foreman was

46:05

at the time. Right.

46:07

Or the battles he had with the... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:10

Like, Fraser was Mike Tyson. Like, you put Mike Tyson

46:12

and Fraser in a ring, I don't know who wins

46:14

that fight. They're the similar... So, yeah,

46:16

the fact that this dude probably took on two

46:18

of the... out of the 10 best heavyweights of

46:21

all time repeatedly, I think, is relevant. Whereas,

46:23

a lot of these guys didn't really have a huge...

46:25

Right. ...to evaluate them on

46:28

physical prowess. The evolution of athletes

46:30

is such that they are clearly getting better as

46:32

time goes on. Yeah. So, it's

46:34

always hard to sort of have that discussion

46:36

about, like, who's the greatest. Now, explain some

46:38

of these kinks he has because I do

46:40

end up coming across videos all the time

46:43

where people are pointing out that, like, Senna

46:45

had this very unique habit of stabbing the

46:47

gas, which to me seems

46:50

completely counterintuitive to what you'd want to

46:52

do. And I'm curious, like,

46:54

if you know what his rationale... What was that

46:56

getting him and how unique was that? It

46:59

was very unique and just

47:01

so people understand what you're saying, Senna had

47:03

a habit of when he was coming out

47:05

of a corner. So, the way the

47:08

regular mortals like us drive is we come

47:10

back onto throttle gradually. Roll it on. Roll

47:12

it on. If you come on too much,

47:15

you're going to lose the rear of the

47:17

car and that's the way you go. So,

47:19

you're coming off the brake, you're coming onto the

47:21

throttle smooth as fast as the monte. Smooth

47:24

is fast. And if you look

47:26

at the telemetry of Senna, because of course in

47:28

race cars, you're measuring to the millimeter and to

47:31

the PSI exactly what's happening to each pedal, Senna

47:34

did something very different, which is when he came on

47:36

throttle, he was stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, and

47:39

then on full. Yeah. So,

47:41

it was hypothesized that this

47:44

was done because of

47:46

the turbo lag. Revving the turbo up. So,

47:48

you would get rid of the turbo

47:50

lag and he would get back to full

47:53

power quicker than everybody else. Right. So,

47:55

he was just like keeping it activated until he went

47:57

full power. Keeping the RPMs as high as possible. such

48:00

that when he got back to

48:02

full power, there was no lag

48:05

and he was gone. Yeah. So

48:07

people actually hypothesized that he would

48:09

struggle when they went back to

48:11

naturally aspirated cars. Uh-huh. And

48:13

here's the weird thing. He kept doing

48:16

it and he didn't struggle. That's

48:18

one of the things I don't think I have

48:21

a great explanation for why he was doing it.

48:23

Yeah. Other than he had clearly always been doing

48:25

it. Like, this is how he drove carts. Yeah,

48:27

if his results were different, it would be so

48:29

obvious it's just not a good strategy. Right. But

48:32

somehow it worked. Yeah.

48:34

His car control really was remarkable.

48:36

And that's one of the beautiful

48:38

things about that era of F1

48:40

is the cars were so much

48:42

harder to drive. Yeah. Less down

48:45

force. Less down force,

48:47

no power steering, manual shift, like

48:49

a manual gearbox. In fact,

48:51

if anybody's just doubting what we're talking about here, you

48:53

just need to pull up. And we'll

48:56

probably include it in the show

48:58

notes. A couple of onboard Senna

49:00

drives in places like

49:02

Monaco, where you have to

49:04

be able to drive the car. Most people would take

49:06

it within a foot of a wall. He would take

49:08

it within three inches of the wall to maximize the

49:10

size of the track for him. And

49:12

he's doing this one handed, no power

49:14

steering while shifting. Yeah. Totally

49:16

different animal. Were those sequential? Yeah. At least. Yeah.

49:19

And did they have to use a clutch? Yep.

49:21

They did. Oh, yeah. He's a whipping. So he's

49:23

a clutch. Okay. He's clutch, flip, shift. Yeah.

49:25

There's also, I just recently saw a great video

49:27

of him driving an NSX. Oh, yeah. The loafers?

49:30

Yes. With the loafers on

49:32

and he's just sideways on the pedals

49:34

and he's so fucking busy. Incredible.

49:36

What seems obvious is it might be his

49:38

first time ever driving the car. He's

49:41

just driving that 100.1%. Yeah.

49:44

Well, he helped them develop that car.

49:46

That's another reason why there's such

49:48

a love relationship between the Japanese and

49:50

Senna, is the Honda engineers loved

49:53

him. I've actually sat in his

49:55

NSX. Oh, really?

49:57

So he actually had an NSX and

49:59

a Honda. still sits at his brother's

50:02

home in Sao Paulo. Oh, really? And when I met

50:04

his brother, he said, do you want to come down

50:06

and sit in the car and start it up? And

50:09

I was like, is this a trick question? Yeah. Are

50:11

you sure? So where does he

50:13

rank? Because like, to my knowledge, Schumacher

50:15

had an incredible engineering mind. He was

50:18

very, very mechanical and they say he

50:20

could help them develop the car in

50:22

a way that most drivers couldn't do.

50:25

Where was Senna's technical

50:27

aptitude for actually developing the car? Yeah,

50:29

very similar. There is footage of him

50:31

actually building an engine on his Gold

50:33

Card. Yeah, very, very similar. And

50:36

he was very, very committed to

50:38

giving feedback. So where I think the

50:41

engineers, and I'm hearing this secondhand, not

50:43

firsthand, but where people would talk about

50:45

this was the feedback

50:47

he could give to

50:50

the engineers was remarkable.

50:53

There's a great story about him getting

50:56

injured, right? And not being able to

50:58

drive the next day during testing. And

51:01

one of the other drivers having to come in

51:03

and sort of cover for him. And

51:06

Senna came in just to listen

51:08

to how the other driver gave

51:10

feedback to the engineers to

51:12

make sure that it could even be trusted. So they

51:14

didn't mess up the car with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:16

He was just that particular about everything you have to

51:19

be able to say. And as someone who drives a

51:21

car myself, like it's hard to put in words like

51:23

how dumb I am. I'll go

51:25

out in a car and I'll know that it's not

51:27

right. Yeah. But I can't tell you why.

51:29

I know. So I raced for

51:31

a season in the Super Trofeo

51:33

series in Lamborghinis. And by

51:36

the way, I have rebuilt engines and

51:38

cars. I am really mechanical. But

51:41

actually articulating what I think

51:43

needs to happen, I find

51:46

to be like an entirely different

51:48

knowledge that I don't have currently.

51:51

I can tell you if it's under steering

51:53

or over steering. I can tell you some basic

51:55

stuff. But to come in and

51:57

go like it needs two clicks on the screen.

52:00

suspension on the right rear for turn seven,

52:03

I'm like, I can't do that. I'm

52:05

furious that I don't have that knowledge. That's exactly

52:07

how I feel. I can tell you about the

52:09

balance of the car. I can tell you if

52:11

I have too much or too little front grip

52:13

or rear grip, that's the extent.

52:15

I know. And it's

52:17

like 10 years I've been driving and that's

52:20

the best I can do. And by the

52:22

way, I think it still exists dramatically in

52:24

current F1 crop of drivers.

52:26

I think there's very few that

52:28

can give them super

52:31

specific feedback the way that like Schumacher, I guess

52:33

Senna would. I don't think there's a lot right

52:35

now that can do it. I know

52:37

some personally that have admitted that they know a little

52:40

about what's going on with the car. Yeah.

52:42

But again, I feel like Max, even

52:45

when I hear him communicate on the

52:47

radio, I'm like, well, he's definitely a

52:49

grade above everyone else as far as his understanding

52:51

of what's going on with the car. And

52:53

then Alonzo also seems to have like a

52:55

really deep knowledge that he

52:57

can articulate to them. Yeah.

53:01

But I feel like that's this big chunk that no

53:03

one really talks about all that much that I think

53:05

is really important. Though like long time champs seem to

53:07

really have that. Yep. I

53:09

don't know what Lewis's aptitude is. I haven't been able

53:11

to really assess that. So let's

53:14

go back to the day of the dreadful race.

53:16

So Senna manages to

53:18

somehow wrangle pole for

53:21

the third consecutive race of that season.

53:23

A terrible car. With the undrivable car

53:25

that is on a knife's edge that

53:27

he somehow manages to put on pole

53:29

yet again. And

53:31

he has to win this race. And

53:34

on the first lap, he gets away

53:36

clean and seven cars behind him, one

53:38

of the car's stalls on the grid,

53:40

gets plowed by another car, immediate safety

53:42

car. This was back

53:45

in a day when the safety cars

53:47

were insanely slow. They were like little

53:49

pinto's. Today, most

53:51

people would notice that they have the fastest street

53:54

cars available. Yeah, they got the GTRAMG. Yeah.

53:57

And the reason for that is these

53:59

cars. have to be kept moving

54:01

quickly to keep the tire temperature

54:03

high. Again, this is something that

54:05

I understand that if you've never driven a race

54:07

car, you've never thought of because when

54:10

you're driving on the street, it doesn't matter. But the

54:12

temperature of the tires is everything.

54:15

If the tires are cool, they

54:17

are bricks. It's like driving ice

54:19

bricks under the car. People

54:21

are watching F1, they may be noticed during

54:23

a formation lap or during a safety car,

54:25

the cars will weave side to side. That's

54:27

to put friction in the tire. You have

54:29

to keep the tire warm. And so you

54:31

want a safety car to be able to

54:33

go as fast as possible. Can we add

54:35

one thing? This is one of my favorite

54:37

things to try to get people to wrap

54:39

their heads around when they're learning about F1,

54:41

which is you have this team that in

54:43

some cases may have $400 million at its

54:45

disposal. They have literally the best aerodynamicists on

54:47

planet Earth. They're better than... Sure. Adrian

54:50

Nuey is better than anyone at NASA. Right. And

54:52

then little tiny bits of carbon fiber

54:54

wing, if you sit up next to

54:56

close to a car, it's boggling how

54:59

advanced and technological this thing is. And

55:01

then the engine itself, this

55:03

1.6 liter motor that's making 1,000... All of

55:05

it is it's so next level tech. But

55:07

then you have to remember, all of it has

55:10

to transfer through four rubber tires.

55:12

This is this great neutralizing fact

55:15

about Formula One. It doesn't really matter

55:17

what you do to that car because

55:19

at the end of the day, you

55:22

will have the built in limits of

55:24

a piece of rubber touching asphalt. And

55:26

they all have the same tires. Yes.

55:28

I think it's one of the most fascinating

55:31

aspects of it is just how much tech

55:33

leads up to at the end of the

55:35

day, four pieces of rubber on asphalt. And

55:38

you'll never transcend that aspect of it.

55:40

Yes. And today, it's

55:43

such a differentiating factor, not because

55:45

they use different rubber. They don't.

55:47

They all have the same compound.

55:49

But the difference between say, Max

55:51

Verstappen and Charles Leclerc is

55:54

not necessarily who's faster over one

55:56

lap where Leclerc may be actually faster

55:58

over a lap. It's that

56:01

Max is way better in

56:03

terms of getting more pace out

56:06

of a tire for longer. And

56:08

that's why head to head there's no comparison

56:10

between Max and Charles. His one

56:12

guy always knows how to maximize the life of

56:14

his tire. Yeah, they generally give credit to the

56:17

car design in that situation. You'll hear them go

56:19

like, oh, Ferrari's rough on their tires. They heat

56:21

them up really quick, which is why Charles is

56:23

able to get pole position a lot, but in

56:25

a race, their tires go out three

56:27

laps before everyone else. Yeah,

56:30

so it's hard to parse out like what

56:32

is driver, but then you watch their teammates,

56:34

I guess is the only way to really

56:36

figure that out. And yeah, Max is almost

56:39

never in tire trouble. Right. And this is

56:41

actually, I think during Lewis's prime, because he's

56:43

obviously on the downslope of his career now,

56:45

but when Lewis was at his prime, it

56:47

was probably one of the things he did

56:50

better than anybody else on the grid. It's

56:52

not a sexy thing, so you don't get

56:54

a lot of credit for it. Yeah. But

56:56

when you can really, quote unquote, manage your

56:58

tires, it's a remarkable advantage.

57:02

And you're right. At the end of the

57:04

day, it's like all the engineering in the

57:06

world still has to be transmitted through those

57:08

four contact points. It's kind of comical. Yeah.

57:11

So, safety car comes out, and

57:13

this is again back in the era when safety

57:15

cars were slow. Senna was a very big critic

57:18

of this. So, he was a very

57:20

vocal critic of how slow these safety cars were, and

57:22

he would be on his radio yelling, saying, that thing

57:24

has to go faster. It has to go faster. It

57:26

has to go faster. So,

57:28

they spend through the fifth lap cleaning

57:31

out these cars. So,

57:33

as the safety car pulls in, it

57:35

is the end of the fifth lap.

57:38

So, this sixth lap is the first

57:40

flying lap of the race. On cold

57:42

tires. On the sport. On the cold

57:45

tires. Yeah. Now, there's another important concept

57:47

that needs to be explained, which is

57:49

the fastest lap of the race. It's

57:52

always documented. Today, a

57:54

point is actually given for it. For

57:57

qualifying. No, no, no, no. In

57:59

the race. Yeah, of the race. Yes. In

58:02

the race, the person who does the single fastest lap gets

58:04

an extra point provided they were in the top 10. Back

58:07

in the 80s and 90s, they weren't giving points for it,

58:09

but it was still noted. You can still go back and

58:11

look up any race and say, who had the fastest lap?

58:14

It shouldn't be surprising to people that the fastest lap

58:16

is almost always in one of the two or three

58:18

last laps of the race. Why? Because

58:21

the cars have the lowest amount of fuel. Also

58:24

they're not conserving anymore. Yeah, they're all out.

58:27

A car today might weigh 700

58:29

kilos, so they're much bigger than they were back in the

58:31

day, but they start the race with

58:34

100 kilos of fuel. Just

58:36

give you a sense of how much of the weight is

58:38

fuel at the beginning of a race. At the end of

58:40

the race, they're down to two kilos of fuel or one

58:42

kilo of fuel. Think about the

58:44

relative change in weight, and obviously that's why

58:46

if you look at any race

58:48

over the last 20 years, the fastest laps are going

58:50

to occur in the last couple laps. Yeah, like

58:52

15% reduction in weight. Here

58:55

we do flying lap number

58:57

six, first flying lap of the race, and

59:00

Senna is off like a dart.

59:03

To put that lap in context, a

59:05

couple things stand out to me. Damon Hill

59:07

explained this to me in great detail. The

59:10

curve where ultimately Senna would die on the

59:12

seventh lap is called Tamborello. The

59:14

curve that no longer exists at Imola.

59:16

It's deemed too dangerous. There

59:18

were too many bad accidents there, Senna's

59:21

being the final and most deadly.

59:23

It's a high speed. It's a

59:25

very high speed left-hander, and

59:27

it's an all out corner to death. It's

59:30

today a chicane, which means they have slowed it way

59:32

the hell down. Every corner

59:34

has a driving line, meaning there is a

59:37

line you take to get the best angle,

59:40

and there are a few times when drivers

59:42

do not take the driving line. As

59:44

Damon explained to me, nobody took the

59:46

driving line at Tamborello because it was

59:48

too bumpy. Oh, okay. To

59:52

be on a bumpy line when

59:54

you're going probably 205 miles per hour, you would just

59:56

choose to

59:59

go a little slower. and drive on a

1:00:01

smoother part of the track even though it's a

1:00:03

longer distance. So, Tamborello

1:00:05

is near the beginning of the lap. So,

1:00:08

it's Tamborello is like the first big curve

1:00:10

of the lap. So, as they come past

1:00:12

the start-finish line to lap six, Damon notices

1:00:14

that even though they're on really cold tires,

1:00:17

Senna takes the racing line through

1:00:20

Tamborello and he's thinking to himself, what

1:00:22

in the hell is he doing? Why would

1:00:24

you take this risk? And his

1:00:27

car is bottoming out. So, it

1:00:29

is sparking like crazy. Now,

1:00:32

we will never know if indeed Senna

1:00:34

had a slow puncture in his tires,

1:00:36

meaning that he run over some debris

1:00:39

during the four laps when

1:00:41

they were going over where the crash was that

1:00:43

was leading to a slow loss of pressure in

1:00:45

his tires. Or was it just

1:00:47

that his car, the tires didn't have enough temperature

1:00:49

in them? That's why the pressure

1:00:51

was so low. But either way, he is

1:00:53

sparking like crazy taking the racing line through

1:00:56

Tamborello and right behind him is Schumacher and

1:00:58

right behind him is Hill. And of course,

1:01:00

they're not going to take the racing line.

1:01:02

They're offline taking the smoother part of the

1:01:04

curve. Well, at the end of the sixth lap,

1:01:07

Senna has driven what will be the second or third

1:01:09

fastest lap of that race. On

1:01:12

a full tank of fuel and high cold

1:01:14

tires. It gives you a sense of how

1:01:16

hard he was pushing. Yeah. Do you

1:01:18

almost think it's in response to

1:01:20

having been rattled going

1:01:23

into the race? Because I certainly

1:01:26

have experiences where you're scared and then

1:01:28

the inner monologue starts going, fuck

1:01:31

you, you fucking pussy. You're

1:01:33

going double hard. Like as a response to

1:01:35

the fear, do you think there was an

1:01:37

all-inness to it? I think, I don't know

1:01:40

that it was in response to the fear.

1:01:42

I think it was he had to win

1:01:44

that race and there's something that people didn't

1:01:46

know. Or the last year the race gone.

1:01:48

There was that but also when

1:01:51

he died, you know what they found in his car? An

1:01:54

Austrian flag to honor

1:01:57

Ratzenberger who died the day before. He

1:02:00

always carried a Brazilian flag in his car

1:02:02

every race and he would wave the Brazilian

1:02:04

flag and he wanted to win that

1:02:06

day, not just because he needed to for his season,

1:02:09

but he wanted to be able to wave an

1:02:11

Austrian flag for all of them. Oh, fuck. So

1:02:13

I don't think there was any way he was

1:02:15

going to lose that race. He

1:02:17

was going to win

1:02:19

that race at any expense. And

1:02:22

this is a guy who's normally possessed

1:02:24

to win every race. So you just take that

1:02:26

up a notch. And

1:02:29

so as they finish lap six,

1:02:31

he's now pulling out from everybody.

1:02:33

They enter lap seven and

1:02:35

this is the footage that people have seen a thousand

1:02:37

times before. It doesn't matter how many times I see

1:02:39

it. I keep waiting for a different outcome and

1:02:42

it never happens. And as they're entering Tamburillo,

1:02:44

he drives straight off the track. Really?

1:02:47

Straight off. Do you see

1:02:50

him attempt to turn? So now I've watched this a

1:02:52

hundred thousand times and I will tell you what I

1:02:54

believe is happening. Okay. I

1:02:56

will also tell you what Damon believes is happening.

1:02:59

And I think that in many ways, even though

1:03:01

Damon's view, which is now my view, and by

1:03:03

the way, it's also Adrian Nui's view. Adrian's

1:03:06

written an amazing book for people who are interested

1:03:08

called How to Build a Car, which

1:03:11

is the definitive book on car design.

1:03:13

He goes through every one of his cars that he's

1:03:16

built. So a chapter per car. We

1:03:18

should add for fun. You can debate

1:03:20

all day about who was the best driver,

1:03:22

whether you think it's Schumacher or something. You

1:03:24

can debate who the best designer is. He

1:03:27

has 14 titles or something. That's

1:03:29

the most winningness human being to ever do

1:03:31

this. Yeah. It's sort of

1:03:33

like I was telling my son, like we can debate who

1:03:36

the best quarterback and running back and things are you can't

1:03:38

debate who the best wide receiver is. It's the only position

1:03:40

in football for which there actually is no debate. And

1:03:42

that is Jerry Rice. Jerry Rice is so in a

1:03:44

league of his own in football that it's really a

1:03:46

question of who's second or third. But you're

1:03:49

right. Adrian is in a league of his

1:03:51

own. So when you read the chapter on

1:03:53

the F.W. 16, which was the car that

1:03:55

Senna died in. Was that an

1:03:57

Adrian car? Yes. Oh, it

1:03:59

was. Oh, wow. I mean,

1:04:01

Adrian has talked at length about how difficult

1:04:03

it was to... How do you carry on?

1:04:06

When you lose a driver in your car.

1:04:08

And by the way, Patrick

1:04:10

had Adrian Nui to

1:04:12

this day, if not for

1:04:14

the statute of limitations in Italy, would

1:04:16

be in jail. Really?

1:04:18

Because the Italian courts found them liable for that.

1:04:21

Really? Yeah. But

1:04:23

by the time they got to that

1:04:26

decision, the statute of limitations had expired

1:04:28

for whatever it was deemed manslaughter. So

1:04:30

draconian rule, but really short statuallers. Yeah.

1:04:32

Counteracted by it. But

1:04:35

the view of the Italian courts was that this was

1:04:37

a design failure of the car. So let's maybe back

1:04:39

up for a moment. When Senna got to Williams,

1:04:42

he hated the car, not just

1:04:44

because of how it handled, but he

1:04:46

didn't like how he fit in the cockpit.

1:04:48

Okay. So again, it's like all these

1:04:50

things that he kind of took for granted at McLaren, which

1:04:52

was having a car that was built around him, he gets

1:04:55

to Williams and he doesn't fit in the cockpit. Right. And

1:04:58

it's like where the wheel fit. He's taller than

1:05:00

most? No, no. It's just his style. He wants

1:05:02

the wheel in a certain place and it's not.

1:05:05

So they actually have to extend the

1:05:07

steering column by some six inches to

1:05:09

put it where he wants it. Okay.

1:05:12

Well, in doing so, they had to make

1:05:14

the steering shaft narrower than what the spec

1:05:16

was called for. Really? To

1:05:19

keep weight down? No, to keep it at

1:05:21

an angle that got it out of

1:05:24

the cockpit, got it where he wanted it. So

1:05:27

what both Adrian writes, and I have spent

1:05:29

so many hours discussing this with Damon, and

1:05:31

I have gone back and watched onboard footage

1:05:34

so many times, and the best onboard is

1:05:36

from the car behind him, which is Schumacher's

1:05:38

car. This is what

1:05:40

I truly believe happened. As

1:05:43

he entered Tamborello, which is a

1:05:45

left-hander, he lost rear grip

1:05:47

of the car when it bounced. So the

1:05:49

way these cars work, they have a huge

1:05:51

Venturi effect. Like there's a perfect amount of

1:05:54

air that must be between the floorboard and

1:05:56

the ground. And when

1:05:58

you bottom out, you momentarily... lose all

1:06:00

of that aerodynamics. The downforce. That's

1:06:03

right. Yeah. And so what happened

1:06:05

is he's going into Tamborello and

1:06:08

because the car is bottoming out, either

1:06:10

just because of how bumpy on the

1:06:13

line that he is or, and, or

1:06:15

because his tires are cold and, or

1:06:17

because he has a small slow leak of

1:06:19

air due to running over debris, the

1:06:22

bottom of the car slides out.

1:06:24

It's possible. I am convincing

1:06:26

myself. I can see this on the Schumacher

1:06:28

on board because I now am believing this,

1:06:31

but I really believe there's a split second where

1:06:33

you can see the rear move. Now

1:06:36

it's worth explaining to people what

1:06:38

that's called. That is called oversteer.

1:06:41

Oversteer is when the rear wheels of a

1:06:43

car are moving or turning faster than the

1:06:45

front wheels of the car. Oversteer

1:06:48

is a phenomenon that a

1:06:50

driver will feel long

1:06:52

before you see it. So

1:06:54

you will see oversteer because you're

1:06:56

spinning this way, but

1:06:58

you feel it in your butt before

1:07:00

that, and you can almost hear it

1:07:02

in the tires. You hear the loss

1:07:05

of traction. So it's not

1:07:07

surprising to me that you don't have

1:07:09

to see much oversteer for Senna to

1:07:11

have felt it. Right. So what do

1:07:13

you do when you oversteer? So when

1:07:16

a car is oversteering this way, you

1:07:18

course correct by counter steering into it.

1:07:20

So if the car is oversteering to

1:07:22

the left, you counter steer right. And

1:07:24

that snaps the back of the car

1:07:27

in direction, and then you're backing a

1:07:29

little bit off throttle and you're coming

1:07:31

back to throttle and you're going. You

1:07:33

don't have to be doing the throttle correction if you

1:07:35

catch it quick enough. So you could stay full

1:07:38

throttle and counter steer back. What

1:07:40

I believe happened is the car

1:07:42

oversteered due to a loss of

1:07:44

rear traction. Senna counter steered and

1:07:46

it immediately regained grip and shot

1:07:48

him straight off the track. What

1:07:51

the telemetry shows is that he

1:07:53

went on max brake and

1:07:56

hit the wall. Okay. Now

1:07:59

The steering. Column was broken.

1:08:02

When. The car was recovered. And. So

1:08:04

the question is, did the steering column

1:08:06

break. From. The collision or

1:08:08

did it break beforehand. It's

1:08:11

very hard to know, but if you

1:08:13

look at the lights and I have

1:08:15

the steering wheel that he used the

1:08:17

day before in qualifying. so I actually

1:08:19

have the steering wheel so I can

1:08:22

see what the lights were. And if

1:08:24

you look at the video of the

1:08:26

lights, you can see that he was

1:08:28

counter steering before he left the road.

1:08:31

Now. I have heard very

1:08:34

confusing. Reports.

1:08:36

Some say that the wheel had no

1:08:38

torque in it when he left the

1:08:40

track, and that would certainly suggests that

1:08:42

the steering column was broken. But.

1:08:45

What you don't see is you don't

1:08:47

see him turning the We'll. Also.

1:08:49

Just the odds and even

1:08:52

know it was smaller diameter

1:08:54

than have a spouse to

1:08:56

be. The notion of torque

1:08:59

breaking through steering a steel

1:09:01

rod seems really. Unique.

1:09:04

And weird. There would have

1:09:06

have to have been some metallurgical issue

1:09:08

with the piece of metal to begin

1:09:11

with. i'm in a million years He

1:09:13

could turn it hard enough to snap

1:09:15

well, and he wouldn't be at that

1:09:17

point. It's a delicate move when you're

1:09:19

counter steering. It's not hugely abrupt. But.

1:09:22

Again, if it were the wheel

1:09:24

breaking, you would see his hands

1:09:26

doing this as he's going straight

1:09:28

off and you do not have.

1:09:31

Also, perhaps some unintended the front

1:09:33

wheels could go. In. Any direction

1:09:35

that the on it. So. He.

1:09:38

Hits the wall. Ah gosh, I'm blanking

1:09:40

on the exact speed that he hits.

1:09:42

It's in the ballpark of one hundred

1:09:44

and fifty miles an hour. By the

1:09:46

time he's in full break, peacefully breaking

1:09:48

on the way to the wall, I didn't

1:09:50

see him burrow of for the first

1:09:52

time in person. Told five years ago

1:09:54

was my first time going to Imola

1:09:56

and to see. The. Wall that

1:09:58

he hit. After. watching

1:10:00

that crash 87,342

1:10:03

times, I was blown

1:10:05

away how much closer it was than I

1:10:07

would have expected. Really? On the TV, it

1:10:09

looks really far. That's where you sort of

1:10:11

lull yourself into a sense of, oh, God,

1:10:13

I just can't believe he wasn't able

1:10:15

to slow himself down enough that it didn't matter. But it

1:10:18

turns out there's a ravine right behind

1:10:20

Tamborello. And so Senna had

1:10:22

many times petitioned for the wall

1:10:24

of Tamborello to be moved out.

1:10:27

One of his best friends, Gerhard Berger, had

1:10:29

crashed there nearly fatally a couple of years

1:10:31

earlier in 91 in the Ferrari. And they

1:10:33

were like,

1:10:36

we're going to abort this race if you guys don't

1:10:38

move the wall out further. And they said, we can't

1:10:40

move the wall. Like there's a ravine there. So

1:10:42

the dryers were like, all right, well, I guess we have

1:10:44

to keep this wall here. And what was the surface of

1:10:47

the wall back then? Was there anything to... Nothing.

1:10:49

...consorb... Just a concrete wall. ...and

1:10:51

the inner chain. Nothing by today's standards is f-1-2. Just

1:10:53

f-1-2. Just literally a

1:10:56

concrete wall. Yeah. Oof. And

1:10:58

so he hits the concrete

1:11:00

wall, the right front wheel

1:11:02

comes off, and it's actually

1:11:04

the suspension rod

1:11:06

of that wheel that punctures

1:11:08

his helmet. It's

1:11:10

clear that he actually died at the track.

1:11:12

I mean, died a brain death at the

1:11:14

track. His heart was beating. They were doing

1:11:16

CPR on him, and they airlifted him to

1:11:18

the hospital. And he was not pronounced dead

1:11:20

until that night with a beating heart, but

1:11:22

brain dead. I've talked with Joseph about that

1:11:25

as well as when Joseph got to the

1:11:27

hospital, Sid Watkins, who at the

1:11:29

time was the medical physician

1:11:31

of f-1. How good were

1:11:33

those guys? I'm always trying to figure

1:11:35

that out. Yeah, no, Sid was the real deal.

1:11:38

And he was a part of f-1 in the

1:11:40

70s. He was certainly a part of making f-1

1:11:42

safer. I think Bernie Eccleston brought Sid Watkins in

1:11:44

to f-1 in the late 70s. And

1:11:48

He had done a lot to improve driver

1:11:50

safety. The Drivers had enormous respect for him.

1:11:52

Legend has it, although, again, Sid is no

1:11:54

longer alive. So I Don't know if this

1:11:56

is true, but there's an interview where Sid

1:11:58

talks about how... The night

1:12:01

before the race he and Center

1:12:03

we're talking and he told center

1:12:05

you should just retire. You.

1:12:08

Got nothing left to prove leave a lot.

1:12:10

After Ratzenberger had died he could tell center

1:12:12

was distraught. He said desena, you should just

1:12:14

retire. Let's you and I both retire and

1:12:16

go fishing. And center said I

1:12:19

can't. Answer: when Joseph got

1:12:21

to the hospital. Said. Was walking

1:12:23

out to be I see you and didn't

1:12:25

say a word, just looked at Joseph but

1:12:27

didn't say a word And that's when Joseph

1:12:29

knew he was dead. He went

1:12:31

in to see him and he said there was

1:12:33

not a scratch on his body. Really

1:12:36

not a scratch on his bio this

1:12:38

other than obviously the head trauma. Where.

1:12:41

To go through his helmet. It's not

1:12:43

clear. Fortunately, there are no images

1:12:45

of it. This is one of the nice

1:12:47

things about it is nobody's ever taken a

1:12:49

photo of his body. God. Knows

1:12:51

what happened to that, how med or anything like that. So.

1:12:54

I don't know what part of the helmet was punctured. But.

1:12:56

I know this said said that

1:12:59

when he arrived at the body.

1:13:01

And. They pulled him out of the car. He knew he was

1:13:03

dead. He knew that this was an

1:13:05

unser viable head trauma. And.

1:13:08

I can tell it's heart breaking

1:13:11

the you the the happen. What

1:13:14

is your overall. Assessment.

1:13:17

Of athletes dying, what is

1:13:19

your relationship, but that because

1:13:21

I have a very specific

1:13:24

compartmentalize view of all maps

1:13:26

and it? Seem.

1:13:28

Sociopathic on some level. While.

1:13:31

I can imagine what you're about to say and

1:13:33

I don't know that I would push back on

1:13:35

it. Look. Let's take a step

1:13:37

back and think about things right. You alluded

1:13:39

to this earlier. There's something about James Dean

1:13:42

and Marilyn Monroe and J F K Them

1:13:44

creates a legend status in them and and

1:13:46

part of it is like they died in

1:13:48

their prime. And. they were at the

1:13:50

peak we never saw them get old

1:13:52

we i never saw them decline they

1:13:54

didn't have to adjust to a non

1:13:56

exciting life that's right leaning into fact

1:13:58

it's and And Senna was truly at

1:14:00

his best. He died at the third

1:14:02

race into the 94 season. Most

1:14:06

observers, myself included, would say Senna

1:14:08

peaked in 93. His

1:14:11

best season, even though he didn't

1:14:13

win the championship in 93, he

1:14:15

was in a very inferior car,

1:14:17

still managed to win five races

1:14:19

and give us some of the

1:14:21

most heroic performances we've ever seen,

1:14:23

including Donington. And so when you

1:14:25

have a person who dies at

1:14:27

their prime doing the things they

1:14:29

love, there's a part of you that

1:14:31

says there are worse ways to go. The

1:14:33

context is such that it is sadder than

1:14:35

I think it would normally be in that

1:14:38

one guy already died, another guy

1:14:40

almost died, and he had those

1:14:42

reservations about driving. That complicates my

1:14:46

verdict on the whole thing. But

1:14:49

in general, I find that

1:14:51

sometimes I'm talking to people and the

1:14:54

singular measure of life for a lot

1:14:56

of people is just longevity. Right, it's

1:14:58

just duration. Duration. And

1:15:01

I look at some of these people. I remember when

1:15:03

Paul Walker died and this is... Did you know Paul?

1:15:06

I never met Paul. Shockingly,

1:15:08

because we were like... It's amazing, giving your

1:15:10

overall... Yeah, intersecting car culture-y stuff. It seems

1:15:12

like I would have, and I have friends

1:15:14

that were friends with him and adored him.

1:15:17

When he died, obviously, it's super sad,

1:15:19

but there was some part of my

1:15:21

brain that was like, if you were

1:15:23

to have measured

1:15:25

somehow the amount of experience he

1:15:28

had had on planet Earth in

1:15:30

that period, I would

1:15:33

argue very, very few people had lived

1:15:35

a bigger life or more of a

1:15:37

life or had traveled more and met

1:15:39

more people and had more experiences and

1:15:41

had more heightened everything. What

1:15:44

I would not want is

1:15:46

a very boring, subtle existence

1:15:49

with no mountains and valleys

1:15:51

for 130 years. That

1:15:53

just doesn't appeal to me at all. And

1:15:56

then I also am not overly saccharine about

1:15:58

death in the future. general in

1:16:00

that I always remember, I

1:16:03

remind myself, it's sad

1:16:05

for the people left behind. I mean

1:16:07

if I believed in a higher

1:16:09

power and stuff maybe I would have a different view

1:16:11

but for me it's like you're alive

1:16:13

and then you're not and you don't know you're

1:16:15

not. So there's no period of being sad that

1:16:18

you're no longer alive. So when

1:16:20

I just put all these things into evaluating

1:16:22

I don't know that I'm as sad as

1:16:24

other people are because I think a lot

1:16:27

of these people ended up living 10x the

1:16:29

life of someone that lives to be 110.

1:16:31

If you presented me

1:16:34

with the options, if I live

1:16:36

like Senna to 34 or I

1:16:38

live like some of my neighbors growing up

1:16:40

to 105, I would pick Senna. I think

1:16:42

I would and I even I engage

1:16:45

in a lot of behaviors that are dangerous

1:16:47

and people scratch their head at and

1:16:50

I just feel like this

1:16:52

is the only version I want of it.

1:16:54

So whatever the consequences I

1:16:56

am knowledgeable of

1:16:58

it, I accept it. Obviously

1:17:01

a family complicates

1:17:04

that. I was just about to

1:17:06

ask you that question. The legend has

1:17:08

it that Enzo Ferrari used

1:17:11

to keep tabs on

1:17:13

his drivers based on different

1:17:15

milestones in life and he would discount their

1:17:17

lap times based on that. So once the

1:17:19

driver had a girlfriend, two tenths

1:17:22

slower. Once he got married, five

1:17:24

tenths slower. Once he had a

1:17:26

kid, one second slower and

1:17:29

it's just as the stakes get higher,

1:17:31

you naturally just

1:17:33

can't be all out anymore. It's interesting.

1:17:35

So there's things I do or that

1:17:38

crosses my mind and there are other

1:17:40

things that simply don't. I

1:17:42

think maybe from years of being

1:17:44

an addict, my compartmentalization is very

1:17:46

strong, psychopathically strong. So I

1:17:48

can be doing one thing as like I

1:17:51

can rule out the whole rest of the world if

1:17:53

I choose to. So when

1:17:56

I'm driving on the 405 in Los

1:17:58

Angeles on my multi-strata and

1:18:00

I'm lane splitting and I'm fucking flying

1:18:03

like I did when I was a

1:18:05

motorcycle messenger. Those times I go slow

1:18:08

down. I want your little girls

1:18:10

to have a dad for as long as they can.

1:18:13

But when I'm on the track just

1:18:16

Monday at CODA,

1:18:18

that's why I like the activity is not only

1:18:21

did no one in my life enter my mind.

1:18:23

None of my problems entered my mind. None of

1:18:25

my anxieties entered my mind. None of my goals

1:18:27

in life are on the table. It's

1:18:30

turn to turn, turn to turn, present,

1:18:32

present, present. And in the present, it's

1:18:34

just me and the motorcycle on the

1:18:36

track. And for me, that

1:18:38

buys me so much in the

1:18:40

rest of my life. It is

1:18:42

like I imagine what people who

1:18:44

do three-month retreats in India get

1:18:46

from meditating. It's just this very

1:18:49

specific elevated moment

1:18:51

of clarity and presence that I

1:18:53

don't know how I would get

1:18:56

otherwise. In that situation on the

1:18:58

track, I don't ever think about it. I

1:19:00

had a single moment where I had a race

1:19:02

in Fontana and it was

1:19:04

when our oldest daughter,

1:19:06

Lincoln, was probably only about

1:19:08

11 months old.

1:19:11

She had never had a big cold

1:19:13

yet or a sickness and so

1:19:15

she was really sick which made her, if you

1:19:17

have kids you know, extra

1:19:20

snuggly, extra docile.

1:19:23

And I remember like picking her up out of the

1:19:25

crib and I was holding her and she was so

1:19:27

snuggly. And I did think, I got to

1:19:29

get on the road to get to Fontana. I thought

1:19:32

I really should stay here the rest of the day

1:19:34

and snuggle this little girl. And the

1:19:36

whole ride to Fontana which is pretty far from where

1:19:38

I live in LA, the

1:19:40

conversation was, okay, you've

1:19:42

gotten five trophies this year. What

1:19:46

are we after? What is the number

1:19:48

of trophies before the ego feels like?

1:19:50

You did it. You're a big boy.

1:19:52

You're a man. What's the

1:19:54

number? We should at least know. Are

1:19:56

we after 20 trophies? Are we after

1:19:58

three? Is four enough? And

1:20:00

I do think that line of thinking

1:20:02

does enter my mind on many topics. Like

1:20:04

how many movies did you want to direct?

1:20:06

You should kind of know. You shouldn't just

1:20:08

kind of aimlessly be doing it. So

1:20:11

it's interesting. I bounced back and

1:20:13

forth, but I did decide after Fontana, I'm

1:20:15

like, I'm giving this a rest. Also

1:20:18

a dude in the same series died in Europe.

1:20:20

It runs the Super Tefaulo series, I think

1:20:22

ran in three continents and a guy burnt

1:20:24

to death that same weekend. And

1:20:27

so I was like, all right, we're not doing

1:20:29

this. We did it. We're proud of ourselves. We're

1:20:31

a man. We're all grown up and we're

1:20:33

going to stop this. And about two years

1:20:35

ago, I was like, I think I'm ready to

1:20:38

race again. So it just changed. What's

1:20:40

your analysis? I

1:20:43

completely hear that argument. And yes,

1:20:45

Senna lived 10 lives

1:20:47

in his 34 years. And

1:20:50

not only that, I mean, he's one of the

1:20:52

few people who still matters in his death. Yeah.

1:20:54

He truly matters. Meaning, you almost don't

1:20:56

go through a single telecast of a

1:20:58

race currently. We don't hear his name

1:21:01

once. Yeah. And even beyond just

1:21:03

that, in terms of what he stood

1:21:05

for still matters. If you look at

1:21:07

the Senna Foundation, before he died,

1:21:10

he had spoken to his older sister and

1:21:12

said, I really want to get

1:21:14

more formal in my giving. Up until

1:21:16

that point, he had just been very

1:21:19

quietly giving mostly to education. Mostly

1:21:21

because as you can understand, the poverty in

1:21:23

Brazil was so significant at that time. But

1:21:26

he said to his sister Vivienne, I

1:21:29

want to make this more structured. I want

1:21:31

to create a foundation where we do this

1:21:33

right. And of course, he

1:21:35

would go on to die very soon after

1:21:37

that. But his sister honored that wish. And

1:21:40

now the Senna Foundation, which has probably given

1:21:42

over half a billion dollars to

1:21:44

education in Brazil, is one of

1:21:46

the most important foundations. And

1:21:49

so in that sense, he does live on. He

1:21:52

lives on in the sense that anybody

1:21:54

who thinks about this sport knows

1:21:58

what greatness was. Even if

1:22:00

you don't like him, believe me, I have a

1:22:02

friend who doesn't even really like him that much.

1:22:05

It's hard to be friends with him sometimes, I'm

1:22:07

just kidding. But he's adamant that Lewis is better

1:22:09

than Senna. And he sort of

1:22:11

has a negative view of everything Senna. He

1:22:13

thinks of, oh, Senna was horrible when he

1:22:15

crashed into Prost in Suzuka in 91, or

1:22:18

not it was 90 actually. But that

1:22:20

said, his impact on the sport is different.

1:22:22

The other thing that's worth mentioning, and I

1:22:24

don't think anybody would dispute this, his

1:22:27

death did change the sport forever.

1:22:29

In the sense that it changed

1:22:31

safety instantaneously. It's not

1:22:33

that he was the first driver to die. And

1:22:36

you could even argue that there was a

1:22:38

comparable death in the 1960s when Jim Clark

1:22:40

died. Jim Clark was the reigning world champion

1:22:43

when he died in 1960, god, 1967 I believe. But

1:22:48

the death, first of all, he died in a

1:22:50

Formula 2 race. Back then drivers would drive all

1:22:52

series. Even if you were an F1 driver, you

1:22:54

still drove F2 to pay the bills. Oh really? The

1:22:56

sport was so much smaller back then. So Jim

1:22:58

Clark actually died in an F2 race, but

1:23:01

it wasn't seen by the world. By the time

1:23:03

Senna died, the sport was much bigger and

1:23:06

it completely

1:23:08

changed everything. Meaning

1:23:11

the sport got so serious. It was like

1:23:13

Earnhardt dying in NASCAR. That's right. You got

1:23:16

a Hans device immediately. Yeah. Although it wasn't

1:23:18

the Hans available before Earnhardt died. It was

1:23:20

available, but it wasn't mandatory. It wasn't mandatory,

1:23:22

yeah. Yeah. Earnhardt refused to

1:23:24

wear it, right? They all did. They're like, god, Goldies that wouldn't

1:23:26

wear a face. He's like

1:23:28

on this male fried monchonis. Yeah. Hans

1:23:31

would have saved him from being a Baszler skull

1:23:33

fracture. Yeah. So upsetting.

1:23:35

It's interesting. There's a really eerie

1:23:37

interview of Dale Earnhardt the day

1:23:39

Senna died. So it's May

1:23:42

1st, 94 and Earnhardt's being interviewed having

1:23:44

won a race and they're like, hey, even though it's

1:23:46

NASCAR, totally different series, like, hey, we just want to

1:23:49

acknowledge Senna's death. And Earnhardt's had a lot of nice

1:23:51

things and he loved them too. Yeah.

1:23:54

Yeah. Yeah. It

1:23:56

would be a beautiful, beautiful, unifying and people's love. Yeah.

1:24:00

incomplete to say it's all

1:24:02

statistics based because it's not.

1:24:05

Dare we say in public why we

1:24:07

both aren't drawn to Lewis? I wonder

1:24:10

if in exploring that it would reveal why

1:24:13

we like the ones we do. Well

1:24:15

I mean it's all different for me.

1:24:18

Obviously I have a very close personal

1:24:20

connection to Sebastian Vettel and also

1:24:22

I had stopped paying attention to F1 after 1997.

1:24:24

Okay. So in 1997 Jacques Villeneuve, also

1:24:31

Canadian, and the son of Gilles Villeneuve. So

1:24:33

I grew up paying a lot of attention

1:24:35

to Jacques Villeneuve because he was racing IndyCar

1:24:37

before he went to F1. When

1:24:39

Villeneuve won the title in 97 I

1:24:42

was in medical school and

1:24:44

that was kind of a period of my life when

1:24:46

I just decided like

1:24:48

I'm gonna start paying more attention to

1:24:51

school than sports. Like I stopped watching

1:24:53

football, I didn't pay any attention to

1:24:55

F1 at all beyond a little bit.

1:24:57

So here we entered, so Hocken in

1:24:59

one, 98 and 99 and then Schumacher

1:25:01

had that run of five victories. I

1:25:04

will say this deep down there was a

1:25:06

tiny tiny part of me that didn't like

1:25:08

Schumacher and held him and this is gonna

1:25:10

sound ridiculous, held him partially responsible for Senna's

1:25:12

death because he was the one applying the

1:25:14

pressure and he was driving a

1:25:16

car with that I felt was illegal and Senna

1:25:18

believed was illegal. Senna also believed

1:25:20

he was outrunning a car that had traction

1:25:22

control when his car was undrivable. Yeah, well

1:25:25

we must also admit Senna had gone to

1:25:27

Williams to drive a car that was gonna

1:25:29

have a huge technological advantage over everyone else.

1:25:31

It was like anyone would have used whatever.

1:25:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the difference is active

1:25:36

suspension was fully legal, Williams just had a

1:25:38

better, although you know it's really interesting. If

1:25:40

you go back and look, the active suspension

1:25:42

of Senna's car in 93 was

1:25:45

probably just as good as the Williams.

1:25:47

The reason the Williams car was so

1:25:49

dominant Was it had the Renault

1:25:51

engine That was incredible. Okay. And

1:25:53

The Honda engine in 93. the

1:25:55

Ford Cosworth engine was nowhere near

1:25:57

as good that year. Though.

1:26:01

Senate I mean again is he still managed

1:26:03

to win five races in season where his

1:26:05

car was. Clearly outclassed.

1:26:08

But. The point is, everybody could have active. it's

1:26:10

just Mclaren, Williams had a better active anybody

1:26:12

else? Williams also happen to have the best

1:26:14

engine by far so it was hands down

1:26:16

the best car. but the D tuning of

1:26:18

the Active was hardest on them to recover.

1:26:21

But. I didn't come back to paying

1:26:23

attention to F One until battles years.

1:26:25

Okay, so Vettel won his first title

1:26:27

and twenty ten. P. One

1:26:30

for in a row. Also,

1:26:32

Adrian Newey cars. so ten,

1:26:34

eleven, twelve, thirteen. And.

1:26:36

Then what happened is you had that huge

1:26:39

rule change into Twenty Fourteen and that created

1:26:41

the new. So every time his rule change

1:26:43

right? That's typically when you create a new

1:26:45

dominance. and that's when the dominance shifted from

1:26:47

Red Bull to Mercedes before it's now coming

1:26:49

back to read. But as they nailed the

1:26:52

engine, I know my orient. Yeah, absolutely nailed

1:26:54

the engine and Red Bull spend. The.

1:26:56

Next six seasons with

1:26:58

a lawnmower engine. And.

1:27:01

Then it was only and twenty twenty that

1:27:03

they got the Honda back. and then by

1:27:05

twenty twenty one Max wins even though Louis

1:27:07

actually has a better car and twenty one

1:27:09

he does. I when are you a much

1:27:12

better coffee up here? If I had to

1:27:14

say first of all, when I like about

1:27:16

Louis is something I also like about Santa

1:27:18

which is this is an outsider. He

1:27:21

brings like a rock star quality

1:27:23

to it. He's like fashionable. He

1:27:25

transcends the sport adding all things

1:27:27

are cool. It's awesome that there's

1:27:29

a block formula one like I

1:27:31

can't help but love that. But.

1:27:34

By the time I started watching at. The.

1:27:36

Mercedes was just so dominant.

1:27:39

In Alonzo was someone who came out last

1:27:41

year and said this publicly which is like.

1:27:44

You. Have to kind of evaluate these

1:27:46

people by: did they win first

1:27:48

against their teammate or did they

1:27:50

win first thing another team for

1:27:52

Alonzo. It's more significant if you

1:27:54

win against another team and if

1:27:56

you just look out. Where. Mercedes

1:27:59

was finished. All those years it's one

1:28:01

to as one to it's one two. In

1:28:04

a faggot. Lose was complaining last year

1:28:06

that red bulls so dominant when in

1:28:08

fact they're ists reams of data have

1:28:10

him call fine of one point four

1:28:12

seconds I had. A. Certain times of

1:28:14

second place you know, Max.

1:28:16

Was the underdog like when I entered. It

1:28:19

was just very easy. The dude one seven

1:28:21

years and or our i don't want to

1:28:23

see that again in the car is so

1:28:25

significantly better. It's not even remotely fair. I

1:28:28

would come to learn it's never remotely fair.

1:28:30

but at that time I was shocked. Or

1:28:33

this is an interesting point though that people ask me

1:28:35

a lot about. Which. Is what's the

1:28:37

difference between F one today and F

1:28:39

one in the eighties? And one of

1:28:41

the biggest differences is. F One

1:28:44

has always been a sport about the

1:28:46

limit of mechanical. Potential. And

1:28:48

the limit of human potential and how to emerge

1:28:50

Those. But. The differences. In

1:28:53

the eighties. And. Frankly

1:28:55

into the late nineties. Or.

1:28:57

At least the mid nineties. The

1:28:59

balance between driver and car was about

1:29:01

fifty fifty just to put a stake

1:29:04

in the ground. Meaning, it was fifty

1:29:06

percent the car and fifty percent the

1:29:08

drive. That's unimaginable right now. Correct

1:29:11

today. It's probably

1:29:13

seventy five. twenty five. Maybe eighty twenty.

1:29:16

Jamming was certain drivers you could put

1:29:18

it up to twenty five, but in

1:29:20

general. right? In other words,

1:29:23

the differences. If you put Max

1:29:25

into the Our William harder today,

1:29:27

he wouldn't win a race. Hamlin

1:29:29

can't win a single race. Know

1:29:31

my? unless it's raining. right?

1:29:34

But here's the point, right? You'd go back into

1:29:36

the eighties. Centers. in a

1:29:38

toll men that first year and he basically

1:29:40

wins monaco markers originally right in the bennett

1:29:42

tangara which is not competitive and he's podium

1:29:45

you have a he eventually did win in

1:29:47

that but if he again if you just

1:29:49

go back and look at how much center

1:29:51

was able to do before he got into

1:29:53

the mclaren a car and have already gotten

1:29:56

to the perfect car he was still slobbering

1:29:58

and yeah not every race But there's also

1:30:00

another set of variables which I think

1:30:02

made racing back then more fun too

1:30:04

is that reliability was an enormous factor

1:30:07

too. Huge. So like you

1:30:09

could have the best car but every car

1:30:11

is going to DNF two races a season

1:30:13

because the reliability just wasn't there. So that

1:30:16

threw things into much more

1:30:18

unpredictable. Now when you

1:30:20

see Max retire because of a

1:30:22

mechanical failure, you're like, how did

1:30:24

this happen? Someone's getting fired. This

1:30:26

doesn't happen. Right. And then

1:30:28

it was like every three races you

1:30:30

lost a handful of cars, grenade their

1:30:32

motor and did all kinds of

1:30:35

stuff. Yeah. So that made it

1:30:37

more interesting. I think if you

1:30:39

look at the Donningtons, you look at these

1:30:41

races where Senna's ability to drive

1:30:43

in the rain was so

1:30:46

magical. There's a few dudes in MotoGP

1:30:48

currently that are that way. It's like

1:30:51

it starts raining and you're like, okay,

1:30:53

Jack Miller, you're up. You're going to

1:30:55

destroy today on a way

1:30:58

less competitive bike. Angelo Perrillo

1:31:00

who just passed away exactly

1:31:02

a year ago, but Angelo who I never

1:31:04

knew in person but I got to know

1:31:06

him through video. So I FaceTime with him

1:31:08

a few times and had the chance

1:31:10

to speak with him several times over the last

1:31:12

five years prior to his death. Angelo

1:31:15

was the team principal for

1:31:17

DAP, which was the premier

1:31:19

karting team of the 70s and

1:31:23

80s. And another guy Fullerton

1:31:25

were sort of the two biggest names

1:31:27

in European karting in the late 70s

1:31:29

and early 80s. I

1:31:31

remember him saying that as

1:31:34

good as you think Senna was in an

1:31:36

F1 car, he was even

1:31:38

better in a kart. Really? He said he

1:31:40

was so good in a kart and so

1:31:42

good in the rain that

1:31:44

when it was raining, he would usually try

1:31:47

to petition the marshals to cancel the race

1:31:49

and just give Senna the trophy. He's like,

1:31:51

why bother ruining the karts today? We

1:31:53

know who's going to win, just give Senna

1:31:55

the trophy. And then of course they would say

1:31:58

no, they race, Senna would win. double

1:32:00

lap everybody. And it's

1:32:02

a cool aspect. Yeah. I'll say this,

1:32:04

like as a really, really lousy

1:32:07

driver, it's hard to put

1:32:09

in words how much more difficult

1:32:11

it gets in the rain. Yeah,

1:32:14

I immediately go straight to the

1:32:16

motorcycles. Watching MotoGP and watching them

1:32:18

in the rain and admitting

1:32:20

to myself they're turning faster

1:32:22

lap times at that track

1:32:24

than I can on drive

1:32:27

is so humbling. And

1:32:30

yes, Senna on any track in

1:32:32

the world full downpour

1:32:35

would destroy you on the perfect day,

1:32:38

which is so humbling. And again, it's

1:32:40

like watching what he's doing. And you

1:32:42

can see there's some amazing video

1:32:44

when he's in the John Player Special in

1:32:46

85. His first win.

1:32:48

His first delivery every, by the way. Yeah,

1:32:51

it is. When he wins his first race

1:32:53

in Portugal that year, it is

1:32:55

pissing rain. He

1:32:58

is driving down the straights and

1:33:00

the car is doing this. Hydroplaning.

1:33:02

Literally dancing as he's going down

1:33:04

the straight. And other drivers are

1:33:06

spinning everywhere and anywhere. Yeah.

1:33:08

That's a very special feel. And by

1:33:11

the way, you look at Max in

1:33:13

the rain, he's heading shoulders above the

1:33:15

others. He don't care. Back to Lewis.

1:33:17

So I can acknowledge that he

1:33:19

is absolutely brilliant.

1:33:21

I mean, the guy is

1:33:24

absolutely brilliant. He's so smooth.

1:33:26

He's so savvy. If

1:33:29

I'm critical, he doesn't

1:33:32

fight. And so who I've

1:33:34

ended up loving in MotoGP is like Valentino

1:33:36

Rossi's the god of all gods. I think

1:33:38

he's the god of all motor sports. What

1:33:40

he did, I don't think any car driver

1:33:42

has ever done. And

1:33:44

his willingness to fight, literally kick

1:33:47

his opponent while they're in a

1:33:49

turn is that X

1:33:51

factor that I'm so drawn to. So I

1:33:53

love- And how many people don't like him

1:33:55

for the same reason? Because Again, there

1:33:57

are people who would say, look, nobody fought hard

1:33:59

to- Then center. But then there's a subset of

1:34:01

people. They would say. When they don't

1:34:04

argue that yeah yeah, Snell. He has his

1:34:06

two incidents where a he was crashed into

1:34:08

to take him out of winning a championship

1:34:10

and then he also crossing the somebody to

1:34:13

secure his championship. For. Me:

1:34:15

I get it, that's what he says the City to

1:34:18

elect. I. Have defended Max

1:34:20

Now listen when Max would not

1:34:22

less chef of the I've ever

1:34:24

known it helped Sacco at all

1:34:26

which was such a bummer. If

1:34:28

any driver in the history of

1:34:30

of undeserved absolute the help it

1:34:32

was. Check August Shackles fell on

1:34:34

his sword and twenty twenty one

1:34:36

over and over again to help

1:34:38

him beat Louis. The lazarus

1:34:40

of the year. He sacrifices quality lap

1:34:43

to tell him to and then he

1:34:45

held up Louis. I mean this guy

1:34:47

did everything. Did Max do that because

1:34:49

he believed check Go had purposely crashed

1:34:51

in Monaco that you're in folly know?

1:34:54

Well. Personally, I'd not as max this but

1:34:56

for me it's so crystal clear. He's even

1:34:58

been on the radio saying it out loud

1:35:01

so we've heard him say it, is that

1:35:03

none I told you I'd never doing that.

1:35:06

And. It's true Max gets in a

1:35:08

car and he's gonna finish is a

1:35:10

high up as he can period. Nothing

1:35:12

else in the work of matters, no

1:35:14

other humans. There's no pain. Back a

1:35:16

favor. Seats. Have not tried to

1:35:18

drive as fast as he can and all time

1:35:21

period. I love it. If you hate make I

1:35:23

have I agree years you would eight that. It's

1:35:25

deplorable but I love I'm saw him like

1:35:27

he is a cyborg. He gets in the

1:35:30

car and he's gotta get the very best

1:35:32

outcome is possible. Period. Yeah it's like the

1:35:34

scorpion who asks the turtle for you know

1:35:36

the story of a tsunami, iso scorpions and

1:35:38

a turtle. Or on one side of the

1:35:40

river in the scorpion says hey, can you

1:35:42

help me get to the other side of

1:35:45

the river And the turtles like. Are.

1:35:47

You kidding me? Like you're a scorpion? You're going to kill

1:35:49

me. Yeah, and he's like. Why would I

1:35:51

do that like you're going? How many their side

1:35:53

the river in this turtle thinks to himself, well

1:35:55

through he can't kill me because we'll both drowned.

1:35:58

And sure enough, the scorpion have some of her. back

1:36:00

there going across the river and halfway across the turtles

1:36:02

like, Oh, what the hell is that? And

1:36:04

he turns and he says, you stung me

1:36:06

in the scorpion says, I'm sorry. It's my

1:36:08

nature. Like, you know, he just can't, you

1:36:11

know, it's like this. And yes, I think

1:36:13

there's something to your, I guess I overlook

1:36:15

it because I don't think he has the

1:36:17

capacity to be generous. I think he has

1:36:19

a single focus and that's what

1:36:21

I love about him. That's why I love

1:36:23

watching him drive and he'll die. It's so

1:36:25

obvious. He'll fucking die in any given turn.

1:36:27

That 2021 season is the greatest thing

1:36:30

ever. What a time to like, I had only

1:36:32

watched maybe two years up until that point and

1:36:34

the land at that moment. And

1:36:36

of course I love max. People love Lewis.

1:36:38

I've fought with many people over that last

1:36:40

race, which is so ridiculous. I find it

1:36:43

so do we have the same explanation, which

1:36:45

is like, we always on lap

1:36:47