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1:59
late 2020 that his
2:02
election fraud claims were baseless.
2:05
Trump advisers and attorneys have long
2:08
suspected that Meadows may end up cooperating
2:11
with prosecutors and have even
2:13
spitefully used the rat emoji
2:16
when discussing the former Trump top
2:18
aide in text communications.
2:22
Meadows also told the federal investigators
2:24
Trump was being, and I quote, dishonest
2:27
with the public when he first claimed
2:29
to have won the election only hours
2:32
after polls closed on November 3rd
2:34
of 2020 before final
2:36
results were even in. Meadows
2:39
has also prompted speculation
2:41
that he may look to avoid liability
2:44
in the Fulton County case by
2:46
highlighting Trump's potential culpability.
2:50
As Politico noted in September,
2:53
a lawyer for Meadows stated in a
2:55
pretrial hearing that the
2:57
infamous phone call between Trump and
3:00
Georgia Secretary of State Brad
3:02
Raffensperger contained a
3:04
lot of statements by Mr. Trump, but
3:07
included no demands to change
3:09
the vote totals from Meadows. In
3:13
a pair of Truth Social posts, Trump
3:15
said he doesn't believe Meadows would turn
3:17
on him but noted that his former
3:20
chief of staff has been threatened
3:22
with prosecution and might be
3:24
tempted by an immunity agreement. Well,
3:26
look, it's exactly the same shit he
3:28
said about me. It's exactly the
3:31
same shit he says about everyone.
3:34
Some people would make that deal, but they
3:36
are weaklings and cowards and
3:39
so bad for the future of our failing
3:41
nation, Trump said. I
3:43
don't think that Mark Meadows is one of them,
3:45
but who really knows? Trump
3:48
denied Meadows report assertions and
3:51
pointed out that Meadows defended
3:53
Trump's election complaints in his book. Mark
3:56
Meadows never told me that elections
3:59
have significant... Donald
6:00
Eisen is a CNN legal analyst
6:02
and the founder and executive
6:04
chair of States United Democracy
6:07
Center, a nonpartisan organization
6:10
advancing free, fair, and
6:12
secure elections. His
6:15
articles for the Brookings Institute and
6:17
elsewhere have made the case for why
6:19
Trump and his banned and criminal conspiracists
6:23
represent a clear and present danger
6:25
to democracy.
6:27
The former Obama ethics czar
6:29
and ambassador to the Czech Republic
6:32
joins us today to get to the heart of
6:34
exactly what's going on. So
6:36
let's go now to that conversation.
6:39
Okay, so Norm, let's start
6:42
today by discussing Mark Meadows's
6:44
immunized testimony. I know we're
6:46
going to get to my testimony
6:48
before the New York Attorney General,
6:51
our unthinkable Attorney
6:53
General, Tish James's $250 million baseline
6:55
civil fraud case. But
7:00
before we start on me, I want
7:02
to talk to you today and I want to start
7:04
by discussing Mark Meadows's immunized
7:07
testimony in Donald Trump's
7:09
election subversion case. What
7:12
does Meadows have on Trump, Giuliani,
7:16
and the rest of them that could prove
7:18
to be a knockout punch? What
7:20
Meadows has on Donald Trump
7:23
and Rudy Giuliani and
7:26
the rest of the coup crew, the
7:30
coup
7:33
coup, coup crew, is
7:38
an insider's perspective,
7:41
a bird's eye view on
7:43
exactly how the coup unfolded.
7:46
Who did what? The
7:49
skeletons that come dancing
7:51
out of the closet, the bodies
7:53
that are buried that he can exhume,
7:55
and above all, direct
7:59
testimony.
8:00
based on firsthand conversations
8:03
with his co-conspirator Donald
8:05
Trump. The federal case where
8:07
Meadows is cooperating is all about
8:10
nailing Trump. He's
8:11
the only name defended.
8:14
There are unindicted co-conspirators,
8:17
including two of those who pled
8:19
guilty
8:20
in Georgia. They're
8:22
gonna have a hard time defending
8:25
themselves when Smith comes after
8:27
them. But the main
8:30
evidence that Meadows
8:33
offers right now is what was
8:35
going on in Trump's head and proof
8:37
that he knew he lost,
8:40
unlike
8:41
Meadows and unlike you, refuses
8:44
to come clean about his prior
8:47
lies and
8:49
therefore faces
8:52
substantial criminal exposure on March
8:54
4th 2024. Trial
8:58
of the century isn't strong enough,
9:00
Michael. The trial of the millennium.
9:04
When Donald Trump
9:06
goes on trial before Judge
9:08
Tanya Chudkin and
9:11
a jury, a District of Columbia
9:13
jury here
9:15
in our federal courthouse in Washington.
9:18
Yeah and don't forget March 22nd
9:20
he's supposed to be starting the
9:23
criminal trial for the District Attorney
9:25
of New York, the Alvin
9:27
Bregh case, which clearly is gonna
9:29
get pushed back if the Washington
9:32
DC case, you know, starts first.
9:34
But again, you know, when you're when
9:36
you're plagued by as many indictments
9:40
and cases as Donald is,
9:43
sometimes
9:46
one case is going to
9:48
have to take precedence over another. But
9:51
you know ABC News on
9:53
this report that sources
9:56
had told them that Meadows
9:58
informed Smith's team. Jack
10:00
Smith is who I'm referring to, that he
10:03
repeatedly, Mark Meadows, who,
10:05
you know I have no regard for this guy, and
10:07
I told him when I was testifying
10:10
before the House Oversight Committee, I
10:12
know what you're doing, and look at what
10:14
happened to me. What do you think
10:17
is gonna happen to you? And holy
10:19
shit, four years, five
10:21
years later, since that 2018 testimony,
10:27
the shit's coming to his backyard now. But
10:31
he repeatedly told Trump
10:34
in the weeks after the 2020 presidential
10:37
election, that the allegations
10:40
of significant voting fraud
10:43
coming to them were baseless. Yes.
10:46
I mean, then, according to
10:48
the same sources, Meadows
10:50
also told the federal investigators
10:52
that Trump was being, and here's the quote, dishonest
10:56
with the public when he first
10:58
claimed to have won the election only
11:01
hours after the polls closed on
11:03
November 3rd of 2020. That
11:06
was even before the final results came
11:08
in. Yes, but
11:10
the reason that those kinds of
11:13
things are important, that
11:17
the claims were baseless, that Trump was being
11:19
dishonest, is
11:21
not just for Meadows' opinion. Oh,
11:24
in my view, the claims were baseless. Oh,
11:26
in my view, Trump was dishonest. No!
11:28
It's because he'll talk about his
11:30
conversations with Donald Trump, including
11:34
Trump reportedly admitting
11:35
to Meadows. Cassidy Edgerton
11:38
says she was present
11:39
admitting to Meadows that he lost
11:41
the election.
11:43
He knew he lost that election. And
11:45
that makes the
11:47
whole attempted coup,
11:50
the big lie, the effort to overturn
11:53
the 2020 election, which is
11:55
still being perpetuated, by
11:57
the way. The big lie is still going. Trump
11:59
talks better. all the time. That makes
12:02
all of that
12:03
evidence of Donald Trump's
12:06
bad intent. And
12:08
that's what prosecutors are going to have to prove, criminal
12:11
intent. So on the jury, the
12:14
questions are going to be, now,
12:16
did Mr. Trump, did you
12:18
believe that the election was
12:21
stolen? No.
12:23
Now, did you have, did you ever discuss
12:25
that with Mr. Trump? Yes.
12:28
What did he tell you? He told me
12:30
he lost.
12:31
Game over. Okay. So
12:34
now it's where we're going to bring
12:36
in the last couple of days
12:39
of my life, the big showdown
12:42
as the press like to call it, considering
12:44
I have not been in a room and have
12:47
not seen Trump since, you
12:49
know, 2018. Donald Trump,
12:53
in the past
12:56
has called Mark Meadows, one
12:58
of the former president's closest
13:01
and highest ranking aides in
13:03
the White House, a special
13:06
friend and a great chief
13:08
of staff. Yeah. As good as
13:10
it gets. Yeah. Now, all of a sudden,
13:12
now, mind you, in the past,
13:15
Donald has turned around and called
13:17
me brilliant, a fantastic
13:20
lawyer, a guy who can get
13:23
anything done as good
13:25
as it gets. Now, all
13:27
of a sudden, I'm the convicted
13:30
felon. I'm the rat.
13:33
I am the serial liar, the
13:36
convicted liar. And so
13:39
this is what he's going to do to Mark
13:42
Meadows. It's what he does to anyone
13:45
and everyone who
13:47
now opposes him. When
13:50
you are on his side, when you are
13:52
carrying his proverbial water
13:55
of bullshit, then
13:57
all of a sudden you're the best. You're
14:00
the absolute best. You're as good as it gets.
14:03
You're smart. You're dedicated.
14:05
You're loyal. You're everything.
14:08
And then all of a sudden, when
14:11
things aren't going the way he wants
14:14
it, you're a liar. You're
14:17
a cheat. You're a scumbag.
14:20
You're a rat. You're a felon.
14:22
You're a serial liar. And then
14:24
he gets his minion. He gets
14:26
his minions of moronic MAGA
14:30
jerkoffs around him to
14:32
start spewing the same shit. When I
14:35
sat on that stand, I
14:37
had fuckers like Chris
14:39
Caius, who's of
14:41
the three lawyers that were at
14:44
the table. He's the only truly
14:46
legitimate lawyer that was at the
14:48
table. Get up and calling me
14:51
a serial liar. I lie about
14:53
everything. Nothing that comes out
14:55
of my mouth is true. I
14:59
was going to ask him, but they wouldn't let me,
15:01
of course, because I'm merely a witness
15:03
on the stand. Well, did
15:05
I lie when I said that Donald doesn't
15:07
beat Melania? Did
15:10
I lie when I said that there is no such
15:12
thing as the P-tape? Did
15:15
I lie when I turned around and said
15:18
that Donald did not father
15:20
a child out
15:23
of wedlock with an ex-employee,
15:27
a woman who was working at one of the Trump
15:29
buildings? Are those
15:31
lies?
15:33
You can't have it both ways. And
15:35
the problem, though, is Chris Caius
15:38
is throwing away his entire career. I
15:41
mean, he'll be shit after this. And if he
15:43
thinks he's going to be the one and only lawyer
15:46
that Donald doesn't fuck over, because
15:48
Trump doesn't care that it took you years
15:50
to get your more-miced, that you had
15:52
to take exams in order, he doesn't care.
15:55
You know why? Because after Chris Caius fucks
15:58
up, and after he's like... Rudy
16:00
Giuliani's in a Mark Eastman's or
16:03
the Meadows or whoever else, he'll
16:05
find somebody else. There's in
16:07
his mind there's always another idiot
16:11
to follow him that he can
16:13
get for not a lot of money. I mean
16:15
then you have look you have that guy Cliff
16:17
Robert, I don't know he you know
16:20
personal injury, you know
16:22
whatever the hell he does, you know
16:24
small time civil litigator
16:27
and then no need for me to even discuss
16:30
Alina Haber walking back
16:32
and forth in her high heel shoes. The only
16:34
thing that was missing from that scene
16:37
was a cameraman in front of her and
16:39
somebody holding a fan because
16:41
all she was doing was playing
16:44
to him and to his ego. She
16:46
didn't care she knew this case is
16:48
fucked but somewhere along the line
16:51
these three assholes sold Donald
16:54
on a bill of goods that by discrediting
16:56
me by trying to denigrate
16:59
me casting me as a liar
17:02
a serial liar and so on that
17:05
all of a sudden they were going to make a motion
17:07
for a directed verdict. The
17:09
judge was going to grant it. Trump was
17:11
going to walk out hands in
17:13
the air like Rocky Balboa after
17:16
his first win Rocky II and
17:19
he's going to declare victory not
17:21
just on this case but on all of the cases.
17:24
It's all part of the great witch hunt
17:27
but here's what happened.
17:29
Judge turned around and said you're
17:31
choking right? He goes absolutely
17:34
denied and Cliff Robert
17:37
comes back and he asks again no your
17:40
honor you have to do it. If
17:42
if
17:43
Tish James's case was predicated
17:46
on a on a serial liar and
17:48
everything that he says has been proven
17:50
to be a lie then therefore this case
17:53
cannot exist Judge Turner said
17:55
I'll say to you again absolutely
17:58
denied. Michael Cohen is a
18:00
witness. I don't know if he's the key witness. I
18:02
don't know if I would call any of them a key witness. There's
18:05
enough documentation on
18:07
this case to fill this courtroom and
18:09
there's plenty of witnesses that are
18:11
going to come to the stand. Absolutely
18:14
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rise above the competition. It's
18:55
funny because you really came to the same
18:57
bottom line as I did. You
19:00
know, I always tell people about you,
19:02
Michael, whatever
19:04
he may have said or done in the past
19:06
has always been strictly
19:09
honest with me. And
19:12
I got asked on television, I think this
19:14
week, well, why did he plead
19:16
guilty to something
19:19
he didn't do if he's so honest? And
19:21
I pointed them to Judge
19:24
Jed Rakoff's book,
19:27
Why the Innocent Plead Guilty
19:29
as a Criminal Defense Lawyer. It's part of the
19:32
systemic injustice, the pressure on
19:34
family members often
19:36
on family members
19:38
that leads to that.
19:40
Well, you know, you know, you know the story on
19:42
that. First of all, the full title on that. Yeah,
19:45
the full title on that book, though, is Why
19:47
the Innocent Plead Guilty and
19:49
the Guilty Go Free. I read it when
19:51
I was in Otisville. And just
19:54
for my listeners, I mean, because, you know, this podcast
19:56
is growing by leaps and bounds.
19:59
I want every...
19:59
I
20:01
was given 48 hours
20:04
from Friday at 5.30 p.m.
20:07
to Monday morning, 9 a.m.,
20:10
to either come in and plead guilty
20:12
or the Southern District of New York
20:14
was filing an 80-page indictment
20:17
that was going to include my wife. Terrible.
20:19
Not right.
20:20
So when people say, well,
20:22
why so, that's
20:25
the explanation there. And then
20:27
I
20:28
thought you made a very
20:32
good point on
20:34
the other question you were asked about
20:36
the way
20:38
Donald Trump gives instructions,
20:41
like a mob boss, you testify.
20:44
So the bottom line
20:46
is, this is not a jury
20:48
trial.
20:50
And that
20:53
may be because of Donald Trump's habits
20:56
in retaining lawyers. It's
20:58
not clear legally
20:59
if these attorneys were entitled to a jury
21:02
trial, but they didn't ask for one. So we'll
21:04
never know.
21:07
We'll never know if Trump could
21:09
have had a jury trial here. This judge
21:11
wasn't going to fall for those kinds
21:13
of
21:14
shenanigans, and obviously
21:16
he didn't.
21:17
Now, they're in a lot of trouble
21:21
in front of Judge
21:25
Anorgon and Goron. They're
21:29
in a lot of trouble in front of Judge Anorgon
21:33
because he
21:35
has already granted partial
21:37
summary judgment, and
21:40
the evidence that has come in is
21:42
overwhelming evidence
21:44
of
21:47
Donald Trump's civil
21:49
violations that are alleged here.
21:52
And this case could – now, there's
21:54
going to be – he's already ordered
21:58
that the – Certificates
22:01
of doing business for the New York businesses,
22:03
many of them be revoked. That's
22:06
going to be, there's been an emergency appeal that's
22:08
going to be addressed. And
22:11
he's in, I think Trump is facing the
22:13
reason he's showing up. He's paying more attention
22:15
to this trial than he is to any other
22:17
proceeding.
22:19
Because so much of his identity is
22:21
wrapped up in these businesses in those
22:23
certificates and being able to do
22:25
business. And because he's cheap as
22:27
can be. And I mean, if the guy's got to
22:29
have a $250 million, that's
22:32
going to kill him. That's why
22:34
he may not always have the finest caliber
22:37
of lawyer. So
22:40
let's just go back for a quick second. And I want my
22:42
listeners to understand what happened
22:44
there. Alina Haber
22:46
was the attorney who was
22:50
questioning me. And
22:54
the questions
22:55
that she was asking me are all
22:58
yes or no. You can't say
23:00
anything else other than yes
23:03
or no, which makes it different, very
23:05
difficult because doing anything
23:08
with, that has to do with Donald. It's
23:11
not always a yes or no answer. I know that
23:13
that's hard to say. It's either yes or
23:15
no. That's not true. So what happened
23:18
is she had asked me whether
23:20
or not I told the truth
23:23
when I spoke to the Senate Permanent Select
23:25
Committee on Intelligence in 2018.
23:29
And I told them that Donald,
23:31
did Donald Trump specifically
23:33
state to you that
23:36
you should
23:37
go and inflate the numbers
23:40
on his statement of financial condition?
23:43
And I said, well, no.
23:47
And that's a true answer. They kept wanting
23:49
to say, it's crazy. They want me to,
23:53
I don't know what they wanted me to do. I said
23:55
no. But then on redirect
23:58
by the New York Attorney General, by the
23:59
prosecutor,
24:03
clearly there was something that you wanted to
24:05
talk about. There's something you wanted
24:07
to say that explains.
24:11
Go ahead Mr. Cohen, explain to the court.
24:13
And what I said was, this is
24:16
not new for me when I say,
24:18
and most people acknowledge, that
24:20
Donald Trump speaks like a mob boss.
24:23
He did not specifically,
24:25
because that was the word, specifically.
24:29
He did not specifically come out
24:31
and say, Michael,
24:33
Allen, Weisselberg, I
24:36
want you to inflate the numbers on my statement
24:38
of financial condition to $6 billion. Go
24:43
into the back, figure it out, and come back to me.
24:45
He did not do that. What he would
24:47
do is say, well,
24:50
this says I'm only worth $5.5 billion. In
24:53
fact, I'm worth at least $6 billion, probably $8
24:56
billion.
24:58
Go figure it out and come back.
25:00
That's what he's saying. So is he specifically
25:03
telling us to inflate it? No. Do
25:06
we know what he wants? Yes. And
25:09
how did we know that that's what he wanted? Because
25:11
the fucker signed off on it. He
25:13
signed off on it. So you don't have
25:16
to be specifically like a mob boss saying,
25:18
hey, you know, I want you to go kill Joe,
25:20
right? Or I want you to go kill Bob.
25:24
No. You could turn around and you could, there
25:26
are many ways to think, hey, you got
25:28
to go take care of Bob. Go take
25:30
care of Joe. They know what
25:32
he means. They don't mean,
25:35
hey, go to his house and help him fix his
25:38
garbage disposal. They
25:40
know exactly what he means because
25:42
they've been around the guy long enough
25:45
to understand the code. And
25:47
that's what I explained. And
25:49
that sent Trump into a
25:52
tizzy, right? And then all of
25:54
a sudden after they moved,
25:56
because these three
25:58
idiots.
25:59
legal jerk-offs,
26:02
they sold Trump a bill of goods
26:05
that he was gonna get, a directed
26:08
verdict, there's no way that the
26:10
judge could say no. And when the
26:12
judge laughed at him, when in
26:15
court on, started to laugh,
26:17
and he goes, denied,
26:20
absolutely denied. Trump
26:23
smashes his hands on the table,
26:26
throws his hands, picks himself up, you
26:28
know, starts to walk out, secret
26:30
service was completely thrown off,
26:32
they go running after him. I mean, this
26:35
was really a shit show. Ultimately,
26:38
and I still have not been able to find
26:40
anybody that knows what really went on, but
26:42
Trump didn't leave the building right away. You
26:45
would have thought that after that, he's picking
26:47
himself. The judge wanted to see him. And
26:50
he came back, they had him in a green
26:53
room, in a waiting room, for over
26:55
an hour. Interesting. So, he
26:57
was, yeah, he was brought back. I
27:00
suspect, and especially
27:02
during the same day, as great
27:04
as my testimony turned out to be,
27:07
the guy who really stole the anti-Trump
27:10
show was Trump himself,
27:13
by going ahead and violating
27:16
the most limited gag order
27:19
that may have ever have been issued
27:21
in the history of gag orders. You
27:23
cannot talk about my
27:26
staff or witnesses,
27:29
and you just, otherwise, I'm
27:32
gonna hold you in contempt. But
27:34
like the petulant, idiotic
27:36
child that he is, he did
27:38
it anyway. And then here's the beauty of
27:40
it. Chutten, I'm sorry, and
27:43
Goron, wasn't having
27:45
any of this bullshit. And so he told
27:47
the lard ass to put his fat ass
27:49
on the witness stand. And
27:52
he made him under oath,
27:54
swear,
27:57
under the penalties of perjury, as
27:59
to he was talking about when
28:01
he went outside the courtroom and
28:04
decided to speak to the gaggle
28:06
of reporters. And he turns around
28:08
and he goes, I wasn't talking about your
28:11
law clerk, I was talking about Michael
28:13
Cohen. And the judge
28:15
didn't buy that bullshit. So
28:17
here's the crazy thing, not only did Trump
28:20
lie to the judge while on
28:22
the stand under oath,
28:26
Cai's,
28:28
Robert,
28:29
Haber,
28:31
from the reports that I read were
28:33
all swearing up and down that Donald was telling
28:35
the truth and he was talking about me. So
28:38
these fuckers who keep calling me a liar
28:41
and a perjurer and so on, who's
28:43
the one that's doing it? They
28:46
are. Well,
28:51
Michael, I've done
28:57
criminal law
28:59
practice for more than three decades.
29:01
And all you can ask is when somebody
29:03
gets involved with
29:06
a bunch of crooks, as you were,
29:08
is that they may commend, they do their
29:11
best to tell the truth
29:13
and do the right thing.
29:15
These cross-examinations
29:18
are often dramatic.
29:22
You stuck to your
29:24
guns. The judge
29:27
clearly was not swayed by their
29:29
arguments.
29:30
And I think they're going to suffer
29:32
a series of additional losses in this
29:34
case. But here's the most amazing thing. The
29:38
headlines were not about Michael Cohen,
29:40
this, that, and the other. The headlines
29:42
were about Donald Trump's lie and
29:45
his punishment that day. And
29:47
he was furious about it. Why? And
29:50
it was his rage at you that came
29:52
into this.
29:54
He got out there and he says the
29:56
judge's very part of it.
30:00
partisan, where's the effect? The judge
30:02
is very partisan, but the person sitting
30:04
next to him is even more partisan. Now,
30:07
the person sitting next to him was his law clerk.
30:09
You were sitting a distance away,
30:11
a little below, right? And
30:14
then he says, what are you talking about? He says,
30:16
oh, I was referring to Cohen. And he
30:19
had to swear under oath.
30:21
And the judge says, you, that is
30:23
not credible. In other words,
30:26
Trump lied. And he fined him $10,000
30:29
under the gag order for attacking his clerk.
30:32
And
30:32
even more important than all that, Trump
30:36
is digging his own
30:38
grave because as he continues to
30:40
do this, he's going to face more and more serious
30:43
consequences,
30:44
including eventually the judge is going to get
30:46
fed up and say, you got to need to spend the night
30:48
in jail. Well, it's funny because
30:51
I think the judge's exact words to
30:53
Trump, I don't find you a credible
30:55
witness. So it's funny because the
30:58
previous, literally two days, 16
31:01
hours of them calling me
31:03
a liar. Look, let's be very
31:05
clear about one thing. Donald
31:08
Trump, and you know, this is being the
31:11
lead attorney in the second
31:14
impeachment of Trump. First impeachment.
31:16
How many, oh, I'm sorry. The first impeachment of Trump.
31:19
How many lies did Trump
31:21
tell
31:22
during his four year administration?
31:27
My understanding is it's over 35,000.
31:30
They actually stopped counting because
31:33
the number didn't even matter anymore. Over 35,000
31:35
lies. That
31:41
was the assessment of
31:44
the Washington Post. What
31:46
can you say to that? What can you say
31:48
to that? What
31:51
do you do? I don't know what you say to it, but
31:53
what you do if you Donald Trump, lie
31:55
more. You deflect. Lie more.
31:59
Every single person that has
32:02
now come out and stated
32:04
that Donald is not telling the
32:06
truth, whether it's on the
32:09
January 6th insurrection,
32:11
whether it's on the voting,
32:14
whether it's on anything, whether it's
32:16
on his statement of financial condition,
32:19
liar, liar, liar,
32:21
liar, and he keeps getting his minions
32:23
to say the same thing. But you know, you brought up a topic
32:26
that I just want to ask you. And
32:29
you can't, you know Trump's
32:31
nature because you've
32:33
been around D.C. long
32:35
enough. Do you see Trump
32:37
continuing to violate
32:40
Judge Inguarron's gag order?
32:43
And if so,
32:45
clearly the fines have
32:48
no effect on him at all. $5,000, $10,000, it
32:53
doesn't mean shifting him at all.
32:56
So what do you think, I mean, do you
32:59
think that Judge Inguarron will
33:02
turn to, let's say, real
33:04
contempt? Eventually,
33:07
yes, I do. Eventually, for sure.
33:10
He is not going to, he's a tough
33:12
cookie, we saw that. He's not
33:14
going to allow Donald Trump to continue
33:16
to attack court staff.
33:19
And if Trump
33:22
persists,
33:23
he's going to end up spending
33:26
some time up in
33:28
an overnight
33:31
room. And let me tell you, it ain't going
33:33
to be like Mar-a-Lago.
33:37
It's going to have bars on it. So yes,
33:39
I think that is coming. Now maybe Trump
33:43
doesn't give a damn about $5,000 or $10,000, except
33:46
he's so cheap, Michael, he's so cheap, so
33:49
maybe he does. But I think that, you
33:51
know,
33:52
Trump knows where this is headed. He may
33:54
think it helps him.
33:56
He may think the mugshot
33:58
helped him led to one of his biggest.
33:59
biggest fundraising days.
34:01
He may think being stepped back, as we
34:03
put it, is
34:06
good for him, good for his brand.
34:09
But I do think that's where we're headed. And
34:11
I think the DC judge needs to turn
34:14
her gag order back on. She's paused
34:16
it pending additional
34:18
legal considerations. Stay, it's
34:20
called. No, turn
34:22
that back on. He's attacking Mark Meadows.
34:26
He's attacking witnesses. He's
34:28
attacking people
34:31
right and left.
34:32
No. He's attacking
34:35
witnesses.
34:37
He's attacking people
34:42
right and left. No. So
34:45
that's what I wanted to ask you, because the
34:48
gag order is not just,
34:50
I mean, it is a limited gag order,
34:52
but it wasn't just for the judge's
34:55
law clerk and staff. It's
34:57
for witnesses also.
34:59
This
35:00
Mandarin Mussolini scumbag
35:04
walks out the courts, the court
35:06
doors, and the first thing he's doing
35:08
is he's attacking me again. When is
35:12
somebody going to start to protect the
35:15
witnesses? You have to be insane
35:17
to even accept a fucking
35:20
subpoena. If the court's not
35:22
going to protect you, look, say
35:25
whatever you want about Donald. He's
35:27
insane. He's
35:30
loose-lipped. He doesn't care about
35:33
the law. He's willing to violate even
35:35
the gag orders. Fine.
35:38
That's fine. But he's doing
35:40
so at the expense and at the
35:42
detriment of witnesses.
35:47
It can't be allowed, and that's why
35:49
Judge Chutkin
35:50
needs to follow the toughness
35:53
of Judge N'Goran
35:55
and turn this, turn
35:57
her gag order back on. That
36:00
was direct witness intimidation
36:03
when he told Mark
36:05
Meadows
36:07
that, you
36:10
know, first he praises Meadows,
36:12
right?
36:14
He's nice to him. And
36:16
then he tells Meadows
36:19
in the text, then he says,
36:21
but anybody who, but
36:23
all caps, when
36:25
you think about it, after
36:28
being hounded like a dog for
36:31
years, told you'll be going to jail. If
36:33
you say bad things
36:35
about Trump, we won't put you in prison.
36:38
If you make up really horrible stuff,
36:40
we'll put up a statue. Some
36:42
people would make that deal, but they are weaklings
36:45
and cowards and so bad for the future.
36:48
Well, we know Mark Meadows did make that
36:50
deal. So he's attacking
36:52
him.
36:53
And that is a threat when you have somebody
36:56
with the power of Donald Trump,
36:58
when you have the man who
37:00
has did the will be wild
37:02
tweet about January 6, summon
37:05
the mob. Then
37:07
he lit the fire with his
37:09
speech on the ellipse and he threw the burning
37:12
torch at the
37:14
Capitol where it became a conflagration.
37:18
Those social media postings
37:20
are very, very dangerous
37:23
and everybody understands what he's
37:25
doing there. That's a shot across the bow
37:28
against Meadows. And I think it's terribly
37:30
wrong. And it is. But
37:33
the point I was really trying to make is
37:36
what he what he does is he
37:38
didn't just do it to Mark Meadows.
37:40
He did it outside the courtroom
37:44
about me. He did it before I was even
37:46
coming in on the second day to
37:49
sit on the stand.
37:51
And while I respect the judge
37:54
for really holding Donald more than
37:56
anybody else to accountability,
37:59
yes, he did.
37:59
it for his law clerk because
38:02
as Judge Angoron said, the
38:06
things you're doing Donald, it's
38:08
going to get somebody hurt or worse,
38:10
killed. What about the witnesses?
38:12
This is the point I've been making all along.
38:15
It's something we've been talking about now on
38:17
Mayor Culpin, on my political beat down.
38:19
It's something I talk about on the press. I
38:22
was on with MSNBC, with Nicole Wallace,
38:24
I was on with Reverend Al, with
38:27
Laura Coates on CNN. I've
38:30
been with on ... I'm like, my safety
38:32
is in jeopardy because
38:35
of Donald Trump's mouth and
38:37
it shouldn't be that way. And Judge Angoron
38:40
should have really ripped him a new asshole,
38:42
certainly much bigger than what he did.
38:45
Look, let me give you another one. So not
38:47
only does he attack me in one of his
38:49
latest ones, he attacks Maggie Haberman
38:52
too. He writes, the New York Times
38:54
and a third-rate reporter named Maggie ... You
38:56
saw that? Known as Crooked
38:59
H. Flunky, who I don't speak to, going
39:01
out of their way. That's
39:03
actually an old one. That was actually a good
39:06
one, where he actually is going out there to
39:08
destroy me and our relationship
39:10
and so on. I mean, there's so many
39:12
of these emails where it's
39:15
just one attack on me
39:18
after another, and
39:20
after another. And he just
39:23
doesn't know how to stop.
39:25
But he has now another one
39:27
against me and with Maggie and
39:29
this one. Someone
39:32
has to turn around and explain
39:34
to him, it's not going to be his lawyers.
39:37
I don't know who the hell it's going to be, but
39:39
somebody has to do it and they need
39:42
to do it ASAP. Because
39:45
he actually, again, speaking like
39:47
the mob boss that he is, he
39:49
wants somebody to get hurt.
39:52
That's who he is. That's what he wants. That seems to be the danger.
39:55
That is the danger. And I think that
39:57
was a direct threat.
39:59
that he issued against Meadows.
40:02
And I think he was playing games with the judge's
40:04
law clerk.
40:06
Uh, and the judge called him on it. I
40:08
like judge in Goran. Uh,
40:11
he's tough and you know, he didn't have some
40:13
long litigation process.
40:15
The first time Trump attacked his law
40:18
clerk, he immediately called
40:20
everybody before him, slapped the gag
40:22
order down and he's enforced
40:24
it ever since. I
40:27
like that. And it's escalating. That's
40:30
the way that can be a lesson for
40:32
everybody.
40:34
You know, uh, that's how,
40:36
but I do think that Trump has the most
40:38
formidable set of, uh,
40:41
justice seekers
40:44
and officials when you look
40:47
around. Um, and I'll
40:49
tell you,
40:50
there's some exceptions, but judge,
40:53
uh, and Goran judge Chutkin
40:56
has already said Trump is not,
40:58
uh, presidents are not king and Trump is
41:00
not president. She's ruled against them before.
41:03
Those are good judges.
41:05
Um, the judge McAfee,
41:08
some people were wondering that the guy
41:10
who has the Georgia case, Oh my God,
41:12
he's
41:12
a former prosecutor. He's only been on
41:14
the bench for a few months. He runs that courtroom.
41:17
Like he's been there for 50 years.
41:19
He's been terrific.
41:21
Um, I think the
41:24
one, uh, place where there
41:26
have been some, uh, questions,
41:30
uh, about the judge,
41:32
uh, is, uh, the
41:35
one who has the Mar-a-Lago
41:38
classified documents case, Eileen
41:40
Cannon, but still she
41:42
has not relaxed her May
41:44
trial date.
41:46
That will be the test. Will she stick
41:48
with that date or not?
41:50
Uh, so, uh, you know, it's
41:52
some very good judges and then
41:54
look at the prosecutors.
41:56
Um, Oh, I
41:58
forgot judge Marshawn. the Alvin Bragg
42:00
case, he's been terrific.
42:02
Trump has attacked him. And then the
42:04
prosecutors are very good.
42:07
You have Tish James who's doing
42:09
the civil case. She's in
42:11
New York AG, very tough, very strong.
42:15
Jack Smith is a ferocious
42:20
prosecutor, known as one of the
42:22
toughest. He was prosecuting
42:25
war criminals
42:27
in the Hague. He's well suited
42:29
to go after Trump. Then
42:34
you have Fannie Willis. She's
42:36
indomitable. She's racking up the guilty
42:39
pleas. And
42:42
Bragg is terrific. I
42:44
mean, these are some excellent, excellent
42:46
judges and prosecutors. So
42:48
Donald
42:49
Trump is meeting his match, Michael.
42:51
Yeah.
42:52
So let me then ask you this
42:55
because clearly Donald
42:57
can't control himself in this case.
43:00
How does that bode for when the
43:03
criminal trial start in earnest?
43:06
I mean, look, as you've
43:08
said, and everybody hopefully understands,
43:10
this New York attorney general civil
43:14
fraud case is civil.
43:16
This is all right now about how
43:18
much? Yeah. This is a money
43:21
case. This is not about, this
43:24
is not about a prison or anything.
43:27
You know which ones are the other four that
43:29
you just mentioned? Yeah. Those
43:31
are all criminal cases. I
43:34
don't see any
43:36
of the judges in the
43:38
four criminal cases putting up
43:40
with any of this bullshit. Yeah.
43:44
Yeah, I think you're right. And
43:47
that's why I think Donald Trump, even
43:49
before conviction, is probably
43:51
going to be facing
43:53
some time to think about
43:58
his dangerous
43:59
Ugly,
44:02
and in my view, contemptuous.
44:07
Contemptuous in the legal sense. They violate
44:09
the law. And
44:11
he can be punished, including in
44:13
the extreme cases where you build this kind of
44:16
a record. That's what Judge
44:19
and Goren is doing, and he's doing
44:21
it so brilliantly. He's
44:23
building a record so when he says, well,
44:25
you're going to have to spend the night in and
44:29
there'll be an immediate appeal to
44:32
the to the second department, right? The
44:34
second department takes the appeals out of
44:36
that court. The
44:41
appellate judges will say, no, there's
44:43
a record here. We're not going to give Donald Trump
44:45
a break. So that's what's
44:47
going on. And of course,
44:50
what's remarkable about our conversation
44:52
is,
44:53
look, I've litigated a lot of cases involving
44:56
Donald Trump. I've opened
44:59
hundreds of files, legal matters
45:01
involving him. Everything
45:03
from the impeachment to the emodiments
45:06
case to kind of litigation
45:09
against his administration to
45:12
amicus briefs and many of the major
45:14
criminal matters. But
45:16
you're
45:18
in the middle of it because you
45:20
stepped up and you did the right thing. And it's
45:22
not pretty. It's not easy.
45:24
I'm sure that was not fun being on
45:27
the stand, but you're doing your best to
45:29
do the right thing. And
45:31
I admire that tremendously,
45:34
Michael. I really do. And of course, it's remarkable
45:37
that you have me on your podcast where we talk
45:39
about it because it's living history.
45:42
Yeah. Well, look, one of the things
45:45
that we were trying to get introduced, interestingly
45:47
enough, and the judge
45:50
didn't allow it in, which I was a little bit surprised
45:52
at because Alina
45:54
Haber spent an incredible
45:57
amount of time going through.
46:00
the SDNY's memorandum,
46:02
Sentencing Memorandum. What
46:05
we wanted to do is introduce
46:07
my Sentencing Memorandum. And
46:10
I would ask all of my listeners, Google,
46:14
Patrillo, P-E-T-R-I-L-L-O,
46:17
Sentencing Memo on behalf
46:19
of Michael Cohen. And if you look to like
46:22
pages 15 through 18, it
46:25
talks about the
46:28
tax evasion. It talks about
46:30
how there are elements in
46:32
law to tax evasion
46:35
and that not one of those elements existed
46:37
in my case. And the HELOC
46:40
is even stupider. That
46:42
was the, I mean, that was the
46:44
sixth count that was brought against
46:47
me, where I had 20% of
46:50
debt on my property and that the property
46:53
was worth 10 times the amount to the
46:55
HELOC. How could the bank
46:58
have been misrepresented when
47:00
I'm not even the one that filled it out? It was filled out
47:03
by, you know, by my banker, this
47:05
guy Gary Farrow over First Republic.
47:07
And I had had a HELOC on the
47:09
same property for a decade
47:12
before that. The whole thing is just absolutely
47:14
crazy. And so we were trying to get that
47:17
introduced. Chris Ties gets
47:19
up and, you know, you didn't know who was actually doing
47:21
what. All three of them, they all wanted
47:23
to make their statements. Why? Because
47:26
they're all playing to a party of one. But
47:29
you know what? Done with that.
47:32
I want to go back to what's going
47:34
on in the other matter. Right. And
47:37
I want to talk for a second about the plea deals. Yeah.
47:40
George Aiken. George Aiken. By
47:43
Jenna Ellis and Sidney Powell.
47:46
Because that appears, I mean, it's just
47:48
as ominous as the one that
47:51
Mark Meadows pled to. So
47:53
if you would, just with me and my listeners.
47:56
He doesn't plead. He's cooperating. Correct.
47:59
I apologize. You're right. He's cooperating. So
48:01
just discuss with me, if you would, what
48:04
their testimony could expose Trump
48:06
to. Well, it's very interesting because
48:08
when you put together
48:12
Powell
48:15
and Chesbrough
48:18
for starters,
48:20
you pull the rug out from under
48:23
both legs of Trump's defense.
48:26
And then while
48:28
he's wobbling, Ellis really knocks
48:32
the knockout, strikes the knockout
48:35
punch. You know, the attack
48:37
on the 2020 election
48:40
by the Ku Ku Ku
48:42
crew,
48:43
that's
48:46
a we refer to that as a Cohenism.
48:49
Tried to equal your
48:51
rhetorical splendor. The
48:55
attack on the 2020 election
48:57
was based on one
49:00
to sit on two legs. One
49:02
was the facts, Donald Trump claiming
49:05
he actually won the election.
49:08
The other one was the law. He
49:10
says, you know, because I actually won
49:12
the election or because there's these questions,
49:15
I can get these phony electoral certificates
49:19
and use them to pressure Mike Pence
49:21
to
49:23
not to recognize the actual
49:25
winner on January 6th.
49:27
So
49:30
that's factual and illegal. Well,
49:35
Sidney Powell was the number one
49:37
purveyor
49:38
of the false factual
49:40
assertion that Donald Trump actually won
49:43
or that there were serious questions.
49:45
He didn't win and there were no questions.
49:47
She's now pled
49:49
guilty. So that's a pulls
49:51
one leg pulls the rug out
49:53
from under one leg. Then the other leg,
49:55
the law. Ken Chasrow was
49:57
the architect while he's. guilty
50:00
to what conspiracy to file
50:02
false documents, the electoral
50:05
certificate.
50:06
So that pulls the rug out from under the
50:08
other leg. Then comes
50:11
Jenna Ellis along and she
50:13
alone among the three, she says, I'm
50:15
going to provide full cooperation.
50:18
And she volunteered to the judge. She was
50:20
misled. So
50:23
I think that she will be a devastating
50:26
witness against Donald Trump when she gets
50:28
on the stand and she says, no, that
50:30
was not true. I was misled.
50:34
I no longer stand by that. I wouldn't
50:36
have done it if I had known. She
50:39
cried. She was emotional.
50:42
I mean, that is going to
50:44
really hit a jury.
50:47
But it's not only
50:49
Donald
50:49
Trump that she's going to harm
50:52
and these other witnesses will testify
50:54
to. It's also Rudy
50:56
Giuliani because these are three lawyers
50:59
who worked for a fourth lawyer
51:01
who was in charge, Rudy Giuliani
51:04
and Ellis,
51:06
cheesebrow, Powell. I mean,
51:08
Giuliani must be
51:11
really squirming because
51:14
they can devastate him. But
51:19
reportedly, the
51:21
prosecution isn't interested in doing
51:24
a plea with him yet. He's
51:26
going to have to agree to jail time, in my
51:28
view, if he wants a plea. So I think
51:30
it's bad for Trump. It's bad for Giuliani.
51:33
It's bad for Eastman. And
51:35
Meadows had better cut a deal
51:38
in Georgia because they hang him too.
51:40
Yeah. So let me ask you a question then because he
51:43
brought up an interesting topic
51:45
right about cutting deals.
51:48
North, do
51:49
you see a scenario
51:52
where
51:53
you ultimately see
51:55
Trump realizing that
51:58
he's fucked? He's going to prison. It's
52:00
gonna be found guilty if
52:02
he lets these cases go to trial,
52:05
but instead
52:07
cuts his own deal, pleads
52:10
guilty for whatever
52:12
the deal may ultimately be. Do
52:14
you think that Jack Smith would even
52:17
entertain a Trump deal at
52:19
this point, or do you think that Smith,
52:21
because look, you said it first, he
52:24
is a ferocious prosecutor.
52:27
Do you think he's just gonna want to push the case
52:29
all the way? No. If
52:31
Trump is willing to
52:33
accept jail time and plead guilty
52:36
and accept responsibility, Jack Smith
52:38
would consider a plea.
52:40
But Michael,
52:42
I know Trump from litigating against
52:44
him. You really know him. What are
52:46
the odds that he's gonna do that
52:49
before the election? Zero,
52:52
in my opinion. Zero.
52:54
Yeah, I would say the answer
52:57
to that is slim to
52:59
none and slim left the building.
53:01
Yeah. I mean,
53:03
this is his only way out. He
53:06
sees the presidential run.
53:09
He sees the presidency as
53:12
his get out of jail free card. That's
53:14
it. And without it, he
53:16
realizes that his ass is cooked
53:20
and he's gonna lose everything. And
53:23
so specifically, forgetting about losing
53:25
just all of his money, he's gonna
53:27
also lose his freedom. Yeah, totally. Totally.
53:31
There's zero chance. So let me give you the sense. Zero.
53:34
Wait.
53:35
Zero until after
53:37
the election.
53:39
If Trump loses the election and
53:41
if there's no Republican who wins with
53:44
the hope of pardoning Trump,
53:46
then he probably,
53:49
then it becomes a non-zero.
53:52
I don't know what the odds are, but
53:55
it's not as long as he
53:57
thinks he can get in the White House or another Republican.
53:59
can,
54:01
or a third party candidate can, get
54:03
in there and pardon him.
54:05
He's not pleading
54:07
to anything.
54:09
But when all
54:11
odds are
54:14
against him, when any chance
54:17
is removed from the table
54:20
and you have another term of Biden, you
54:22
know, at that point he might say, yes, I'll
54:25
plead. The problem is
54:26
that that will be post conviction. There
54:29
won't be very good deals.
54:31
Right.
54:32
That's true. So then let me ask you
54:34
it this way. As the
54:36
prosecutors continue to work their way
54:38
up the food chain, right, because they've
54:41
gotten so many of the minor players
54:43
to flip, then going after
54:45
the bigger fish, I mean, they've
54:48
largely succeeded now in
54:50
that, right, with Sidney Powell
54:52
and with Chesbro and Jen Ellis.
54:55
Do you see a scenario
54:58
where Rudy Kaludy, drunken Giuliani,
55:02
really
55:03
faced with going to prison for
55:05
a very long time? You see right now,
55:08
he's still walking around. He's
55:11
still carrying Donald's
55:13
dirty water. Yeah. When
55:16
he is ultimately going to be confronted
55:19
with going to prison for a long time
55:22
and Trump refusing
55:25
to fucking help him and to help to
55:27
defray legal costs. Do you
55:29
think Rudy will flip on Trump
55:32
and ultimately become a star witness?
55:35
And if so, what
55:37
does this then do to Trump?
55:40
Rudy Giuliani is going to face
55:42
increasing pressure to plead. This Troika
55:45
of Ellis,
55:47
who he described as his number two.
55:49
Think of how much he has on him.
55:51
Chesbro worked with him. Powell worked
55:53
with him. That's going to put the pressure on
55:55
him. He's running out of money. He's having a
55:58
lot of other problems.
55:59
He can't pay his bills, he can't hang on
56:02
to lawyers.
56:03
He got some
56:05
country lawyer representing him who
56:08
lives three hours outside
56:10
of Atlanta now in this criminal case.
56:12
The pressure is going to be in too intense.
56:15
Giuliani is going to flip, and that
56:17
is really going to put the screws to Donald
56:20
Trump.
56:20
But still,
56:22
Trump is not going to budge until
56:24
you get past November 2024. He's
56:27
going to be playing for that prospect
56:29
that a Republican gets elected
56:32
and pardons him maybe. He's a Republican
56:35
candidate. He pardons himself
56:37
for orders DOJ to drop
56:40
the case federally. If he were to
56:42
plead in the state case, it would compromise
56:45
that federal play.
56:46
So don't expect him to do anything until
56:49
after November 2024. After
56:51
that, I think
56:53
the prospect of Giuliani
56:56
turning on him, all these others, there'll be
56:58
many more cooperators in the state
57:01
case by then. There'll be others
57:03
like Meadows cooperating in the federal
57:06
case. It becomes a non-zero
57:10
chance, as I say, that
57:12
he cooperates now. Until
57:14
he actually, if he loses the Republican
57:17
nomination, turn
57:19
to a third party race,
57:22
Michael Cohen
57:24
knows that better than
57:26
I do, as I've said. I will say
57:29
this,
57:30
Michael, about your Trump
57:32
prognostication abilities.
57:34
So people should listen to Michael when
57:37
he makes
57:38
an analysis of what Trump is going to do.
57:41
It's funny, because you're not the first person
57:44
who I've heard say that. If he doesn't
57:46
get the nomination, he's going to go
57:48
third party. So
57:51
let me give you my perspective on it.
57:54
I don't think so. If he,
57:57
now he may threaten it so
57:59
that no other Republican or
58:01
the Republican Party has
58:03
no choice but to accept him
58:05
as the nominee. Again, at
58:08
least now he is a 50-50 shot
58:10
of becoming president and saving his
58:13
ass. First of all,
58:16
which would be the third party? Going for
58:18
the Independence Party? I don't think so. That's
58:20
already taken. Right?
58:23
What's he gonna go for? The Green Party? Here's
58:26
the reason why I say I'm not buying
58:29
it. Because in order to get on the
58:31
ballot in all the states,
58:34
especially now as a
58:36
Green Party or whatever party, the Donald
58:39
Party, whatever third party that
58:41
it's going to be, you're gonna
58:43
have to spend an enormous
58:46
amount of money. Now
58:48
people may turn around listening to this and say,
58:50
yeah but he has that ability. He's
58:53
already raised and has money
58:55
sitting in the kitty. Well here's the
58:57
difference. A lot of the
58:59
money that's sitting is in the super
59:02
PAC. And if you read
59:04
the fine print on the
59:07
super PAC, you know what it says? 90%
59:12
of all monies received to the super
59:14
PAC. Donald has
59:17
total discretion over
59:19
that money. It does not need to be
59:22
used for political purpose.
59:24
It doesn't need... He can keep
59:26
it. That's how he's paying to fix his airplane
59:29
or to fly around on the aircraft. 90
59:32
cents of every dollar that these
59:35
idiots are giving to him in the PAC. Basically
59:38
you're giving it to Donald to keep for his pocket.
59:41
He is not going to spend that
59:43
money which he considers his
59:45
and that could be the only money that he ultimately
59:48
gets left with. He's not
59:50
going to spend that in order to
59:52
get onto a third party,
59:54
you know, as a third
59:56
party nominee when he knows
59:59
that there is zero. zero chance that
1:00:01
he could win, zero.
1:00:03
You were the first person to say
1:00:06
to me when I was interviewing you in the
1:00:08
earliest days of the impeachment at
1:00:10
the beginning of 2019, because
1:00:13
I wanted to impeach
1:00:16
on some of these
1:00:18
the 2016 election
1:00:21
interference through hush money payments,
1:00:23
you have evidence on that, some of the financial
1:00:26
frauds, particularly using his White
1:00:28
House position to perpetuate his financial
1:00:31
empire on such
1:00:33
a
1:00:33
false,
1:00:35
allegedly fraudulent basis.
1:00:39
I interviewed Michael, I
1:00:41
came to New York and I always, I love to
1:00:43
tell the story. Michael said to me, Norm,
1:00:45
one other thing you got to watch out for.
1:00:47
You're not asking me the right question.
1:00:50
What is that Michael? I'm
1:00:52
paraphrasing. He says, you've got
1:00:54
to watch out for the 2024 election. That
1:00:58
guy is not going to leave the White House willingly.
1:01:01
We're going to have, and I'm paraphrasing, non-peaceful
1:01:04
transfer of power. I put the exact words
1:01:07
down in my book about the impeachment, a
1:01:09
case for the American people, because they were so important
1:01:12
and it really got me thinking. And later on
1:01:14
when I was doing all my work on democracy
1:01:16
protection, in part it was because Michael
1:01:19
warned me. So folks,
1:01:21
when he talks,
1:01:23
listen.
1:01:24
So Norm, let me jump
1:01:26
into something else here for a sec, because I want to talk about
1:01:30
section three of the 14th amendment,
1:01:32
which says that a public official is
1:01:34
not eligible to assume public
1:01:37
office if they, and the quote is,
1:01:39
engaged in insurrection
1:01:41
or rebellion against the United
1:01:44
States. Do you see any
1:01:46
possible scenario where this
1:01:48
would keep Trump off the ballot?
1:01:50
That will be, we will know much more
1:01:53
about this by the next
1:01:55
time I'm on your podcast, Michael,
1:01:57
because that's the question that's being litigated.
1:01:59
in several places around the country
1:02:02
now, the first trial will be in
1:02:05
Colorado starting shortly. Certainly
1:02:08
the things that Donald Trump did
1:02:10
were as bad as the
1:02:13
acts of insurrection that some of those
1:02:15
who were barred from
1:02:18
office in the 19th century
1:02:20
after the Civil War.
1:02:23
What Trump did is as much
1:02:25
an insurrection as what they did. But there's
1:02:27
a lot of legal uncertainties and
1:02:30
it's important
1:02:32
that it's being tested.
1:02:34
That question is really for the courts, so
1:02:36
we should keep a very sharp eye out on
1:02:39
how they adjudicate it. But I have written
1:02:41
about
1:02:42
the powerful fit
1:02:44
between the 14th Amendment and
1:02:46
the conduct of Donald Trump.
1:02:49
The January 6th Committee thought DOJ
1:02:51
should prosecute him for insurrection. And
1:02:54
you have some fantastic lawyers
1:02:56
who are litigating this matter. My
1:02:59
former colleagues at CRU, which I
1:03:01
co-founded, CRU is bringing the case. Now
1:03:03
we're just going to have to see what happens. Yeah,
1:03:06
and so look, as the hour comes
1:03:09
very quickly, you know that whenever
1:03:11
we spend time together it always goes by quickly.
1:03:14
Just for the last question, I want to switch
1:03:16
gears one last time and I want to
1:03:18
discuss the election of this new
1:03:21
House Speaker, MAGA
1:03:23
Mike Johnson. Do you
1:03:25
think that he'll
1:03:28
prove to be a stabilizing
1:03:31
figure in the party? Or do you think
1:03:34
that he'll just move the Republican
1:03:36
House further to the right and
1:03:39
continue to normalize the
1:03:41
MAGA agenda? And I say this
1:03:43
because anyone
1:03:45
that gets praised by Matt Gaetz, you
1:03:48
know is far right and is a far right
1:03:51
fucking lunatic. And listening
1:03:53
to this guy talking about Jesus
1:03:56
and
1:03:57
and
1:03:59
versus Wade and the fact that, you
1:04:02
know, no woman should be permitted
1:04:04
in abortion. I mean, I
1:04:06
start to think to myself, holy
1:04:09
shit, this is not the guy
1:04:11
that I could see being
1:04:13
a unifier of the Republican
1:04:16
Party unless all the Republicans
1:04:19
in the party are the same
1:04:21
as them.
1:04:22
The future of
1:04:25
MAGA Mike
1:04:26
is able to
1:04:28
be forecast by his past. I
1:04:31
got to know him on the first Trump impeachment.
1:04:33
He's soft spoken.
1:04:35
He's cordial. But Trump had
1:04:37
no ferocious and in my view,
1:04:40
no more dishonest, no
1:04:42
more ferocious, no more dishonest
1:04:46
defender than Mike
1:04:48
Johnson.
1:04:50
Don't be fooled
1:04:53
by that mild demeanor.
1:04:55
He is a hardcore
1:04:58
MAGA follower. You want more proof?
1:05:01
He led the congressional effort
1:05:03
to file
1:05:04
an amicus brief in the United States Supreme
1:05:06
Court saying Texas could sue to throw
1:05:08
out the votes for
1:05:10
Biden in Pennsylvania,
1:05:13
even though Biden clearly won. It
1:05:15
was nakedly
1:05:16
anti-democratic.
1:05:17
Even the Supreme Court dominated
1:05:19
by Republicans laughed
1:05:22
it out of court, refused to consider it. That's
1:05:25
who we're talking about here. So
1:05:27
yeah, I do not think he's going to be a stabilizing
1:05:31
influence. I think he's going
1:05:33
to be a dangerous one. We got to be sharp.
1:05:36
Well, I totally agree. I
1:05:38
mean, I look at him and all I see
1:05:41
is a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's
1:05:43
really all that I see. He's trying to, as you said,
1:05:46
portray some sort of a very
1:05:48
even hand. The problem that
1:05:50
the Republicans have is
1:05:53
greater than what
1:05:55
most people think. It's
1:05:57
exactly what happened to Texas.
1:06:00
McCarthy, right, where
1:06:02
it only takes a couple of people
1:06:04
to turn around to say, you know what, this shit
1:06:06
just ain't working for us and
1:06:08
they get together and they put in
1:06:11
the, you know, impeachment,
1:06:13
they vote of no confidence and
1:06:15
next thing you know, once again, the
1:06:17
House doesn't have a leader. But you know,
1:06:19
Norm, I just want to say to you, you know, you
1:06:22
are the final, listen
1:06:26
to this one, you are the final guest
1:06:29
on this specific RSS
1:06:31
feed for Maya Culpa. We're actually
1:06:33
moving the RSS feed over
1:06:36
to the Midas Touch network.
1:06:38
To get all the new episodes,
1:06:42
you're gonna have to then just subscribe
1:06:44
to the new RSS feed. The
1:06:46
link for the new RSS feed is
1:06:49
in the description. So when you
1:06:51
come back next, you'll
1:06:53
be on the new Midas Touch network
1:06:55
RSS feed for Maya Culpa podcast.
1:06:58
Friends, join
1:07:01
us on the new Midas network RSS
1:07:04
feed as one of the friends of the pod
1:07:08
and friend of Michael. There's no
1:07:10
better way that
1:07:11
you can spend your podcasting
1:07:15
attention than hanging out with
1:07:17
Michael
1:07:18
and his friends of
1:07:20
whom I consider myself to
1:07:22
be. As do I. As do I. So Norm, my friend,
1:07:25
let me as always say thank you for joining
1:07:28
me. Thank you for your insight. Boy,
1:07:32
boy, do we have a lot to talk
1:07:34
about. There's just too much going on all
1:07:36
at the same time from Maine
1:07:38
to Israel to Ukraine,
1:07:42
you know, to our national politics,
1:07:45
to the fighting. I mean this is
1:07:47
just, it's just really too much. So
1:07:49
I ask everybody take a deep breath.
1:07:53
Things will be okay together
1:07:55
as the Maya Culpa podcast listeners
1:07:59
and speakers. supporters. Together we
1:08:01
will fight this. We will ensure that 2024
1:08:05
there will be a massive blue tidal
1:08:07
wave that runs over the
1:08:10
entire Republican party and
1:08:12
that we will take back more houses.
1:08:15
We will take back more states. You
1:08:17
know, we will take the House back. We'll continue
1:08:19
to control the Senate. And yes, Joe
1:08:21
Biden will be president in 2024.
1:08:24
So my friend Norm, thank you my brother
1:08:27
and I will see you and I'll be speaking to you
1:08:29
very soon. Thank you, Michael.
1:08:31
See you soon. You got it, pal. And
1:08:35
now for today's Mayakolpa. I'm
1:08:37
struck by how Donald Trump compared himself
1:08:40
to Nelson Mandela. I mean, let's
1:08:42
forget for a moment
1:08:44
that he is a deeply racist
1:08:46
bigot and consider the possibility
1:08:48
that Trump is a persecution complex
1:08:51
and actually really sees himself as
1:08:53
a political prisoner being targeted
1:08:56
by a corrupt government. The
1:08:58
former president is portraying himself
1:09:01
as a bulwark against a deep state
1:09:03
that he claims is weaponized against
1:09:06
him as well as his supporters. You
1:09:09
see, look, the idea that he
1:09:11
is a political martyr who is being
1:09:13
unfairly targeted by the Biden administration
1:09:16
despite 91 charges
1:09:19
across his four criminal indictments.
1:09:21
I mean, look, I'm going to say it my way.
1:09:24
It's fucking ridiculous. But
1:09:27
it does strike a chord with his base who
1:09:29
truly believe that despite all
1:09:31
the evidence that Trump is innocent,
1:09:35
it's part of a larger and quite frankly,
1:09:37
dangerous sensibility that the
1:09:39
government is against them as well. You
1:09:42
see, Trump is spinning
1:09:43
a web of lies and inciting
1:09:45
his base to rally behind him
1:09:48
as he builds himself up into this martyr.
1:09:51
Behind those lies is the prospect
1:09:54
for more violence. Take
1:09:56
this startling statistic. One
1:09:58
in three Republicans Americans believe that
1:10:01
true American patriots may
1:10:03
have to resort to violence to save the
1:10:05
country.
1:10:07
The former president falsely
1:10:09
claimed
1:10:10
that the former Joint Chiefs of Staff
1:10:12
Chairman General Mark Milley committed
1:10:15
treason and suggested,
1:10:17
get a load of this, that he be executed,
1:10:20
called for police to shoot
1:10:21
shoplifters on site and
1:10:24
using language that mirrors Nazi
1:10:26
eugenics. And he claimed that migrants
1:10:29
illegally crossing the southern border
1:10:32
are poisoning the blood of our country.
1:10:36
We're building up to something big and ugly
1:10:38
and Trump knows how to manipulate people
1:10:41
to get
1:10:41
in touch with their worst and their most
1:10:43
basic instincts.
1:10:46
If he is pushing this notion that
1:10:48
he is being unfairly persecuted
1:10:50
on top of a stolen election, he
1:10:53
is lighting a fuse that is going
1:10:55
to
1:10:55
explode and make January 6 look
1:10:58
like a Boy Scout jamboree. Trump
1:11:01
has never respected the norms of political
1:11:03
behavior and there's little reason to
1:11:05
think gag orders will provide meaningful
1:11:08
guardrails either. The
1:11:10
day is fast approaching when someone
1:11:13
picks up a gun or builds a fucking
1:11:15
bomb and then seeks to follow through
1:11:17
on Trump's words. If
1:11:20
and when that happens, he will say that
1:11:22
he did not specifically direct
1:11:24
or cause the violence and he will probably
1:11:26
escape without criminal charges
1:11:29
and the blood will be on his hands
1:11:31
yet again.
1:11:33
And as always my friends,
1:11:34
thanks for listening. May
1:11:38
your colpis brought to you by audio up. My
1:11:40
name is Tarjan L.S.J. Media, written
1:11:43
by Jimmy Kjellenek. Our editor
1:11:45
and managing producer is Lisa Orkin.
1:11:47
Our executive producer is Jared
1:11:49
Gustaf, Jimmy Kjellenek and myself
1:11:51
Michael Cohen along with Phil Alberstadt.
1:11:54
It may be a new day politically but
1:11:57
nowadays the landscape is more confusing
1:11:59
than ever.
1:12:00
Donald Trump may have lost the battle for the presidency,
1:12:03
but in many
1:12:03
ways Trumpism is still winning
1:12:05
the war on the state and local level. May
1:12:08
it help
1:12:09
us here, South guide you through the wilderness,
1:12:11
and keep them informed. And let's face
1:12:14
it, we all want Trump, Rudy,
1:12:16
and the rest of these seditious
1:12:17
traitors to see justice
1:12:20
that's ultimately driving you into the state.
1:12:23
And try to get the
1:12:26
real process that will ultimately
1:12:28
see them behind bars. May it help,
1:12:31
and let the
1:12:32
truth.
1:12:53
Donald Trump is a true
1:12:56
self-honored man. He's
1:13:00
a powerful, powerful, and he's
1:13:02
a powerful man. And he's a powerful man.
1:13:07
May it help, and let the truth. May
1:13:09
it help, and let the truth. It's
1:13:12
coming down and down. And
1:13:14
he's going down and down and
1:13:16
down and down and down and down. And
1:13:20
he's a powerful man.
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