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0:00
Hi, this is Sarah in
0:02
Greenfield, Massachusetts. I am
0:04
making myself a grilled ham and cheese
0:06
sandwich for lunch. This
0:09
podcast was recorded at 955 a.m. On
0:11
Wednesday, April 10th, 2024. Things
0:16
may have changed by the time you hear it. Okay,
0:18
here's the show. Love
0:23
the audio work on that. I legitimately almost
0:25
forgot what time it was just from the sizzle.
0:27
Like it distracted me. So I haven't had breakfast
0:30
yet. And that's your stomach grumbling over there. Hey
0:34
there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Miles
0:36
Parks. I cover voting. I'm Ashley
0:38
Lopez. I also cover voting. I'm
0:40
Stephen Fowler. I cover politics. And today
0:42
we are zooming in on a single
0:44
congressional district in Alabama. After
0:46
the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that Alabama's congressional
0:49
map discriminated against black voters, the remedy was
0:51
straightforward. Draw new boundaries to create a second
0:53
opportunity for those voters to elect a candidate
0:55
of their choice, a protection that was established
0:57
in the 1960s by the Voting Rights Act.
1:00
Today on the pod, we're going to see
1:02
how that's going. Stephen, you've been
1:04
looking at this new congressional district. Tell
1:06
me what it's like. Yeah, so Alabama's
1:08
second congressional district is this sprawling district
1:11
that runs from one corner of the
1:13
state to the other, Mobile
1:15
on the coast all the way to Montgomery
1:17
and includes the black belt in between. And
1:20
it was the result of actually
1:22
the third time of redrawing Alabama's
1:24
maps. After redistricting happened, there
1:27
was a census in 2020, redistricting in
1:29
2021, a lawsuit was
1:31
filed saying that it was discriminatory against
1:33
black voters, that it packed black voters
1:35
into one district and spread them out
1:37
across other ones. And so the
1:40
court came back and said, okay, you need
1:42
to redraw this map to be less discriminatory.
1:44
The Alabama legislature refused. They came back again
1:46
and said, no, we really mean it. You
1:49
need to redraw these maps. And then finally,
1:51
it resulted in a special master creating these
1:53
new boundary lines that'll be used for the
1:55
2024 election. Now, it's a nearly majority black
1:57
district because there's a lot of different. numbers
2:00
of population percentages used to
2:02
draw these in highly technical
2:04
ways. But essentially, assuming
2:06
normal turnout patterns and things like that,
2:09
this South Alabama district should see black
2:11
voters be able to elect a candidate
2:13
of their choice, which will likely be
2:15
a Democrat. nat.com Because we should note
2:17
that black voters make up roughly
2:19
a fourth of Alabama's total population.
2:21
But previously, under the first maps
2:23
that were drawn, they would have
2:25
only had the opportunity to elect
2:27
one representative of their choosing. One
2:30
out of seven is less than 25%. I think the number is
2:32
actually 27%. So this district boundary and
2:38
these lines more accurately reflect the diversity
2:40
of Alabama and where people live. nat.com
2:42
And this is a big deal because
2:45
obviously, we don't know what the US
2:47
House is going to look like after
2:49
the 2024 election. But presumably, people
2:52
are thinking that this could mean another
2:54
Democrat coming out of Alabama. Is that
2:56
right? Yeah. And so this will likely
2:59
be a pickup for Democrats. Alabama
3:01
currently has six Republicans, one Democrat
3:03
that could go to five Republicans,
3:06
two Democrats. So in the Washington
3:08
sense, it's an important victory for
3:10
Democrats. But my story looking at
3:13
representation in Alabama focuses more on
3:15
what it means for black voters
3:17
in Alabama. There are obviously people
3:19
in Alabama that care about control
3:22
of the House. But I talked to people
3:24
like Shalila Dowdy, who's a voting rights advocate
3:26
and one of the plaintiffs in this lawsuit.
3:29
And she said that representation means
3:31
something different than who wins who
3:33
loses. nat.com It means a seat
3:36
at the table. It means that we
3:38
can expect our needs and our wants
3:40
to be taken into consideration when
3:43
bills are being introduced and voted upon.
3:45
nat.com I almost feel bad
3:47
that I immediately went to the political ramifications,
3:49
right? Because this is actually something a little
3:51
bit more visceral, the idea that many voters
3:53
in Alabama are now going
3:55
to feel more empowered to elect a representative
3:58
of their choosing. talks
4:00
to folks, did you get the sense
4:02
that there was an emotional response to
4:04
this decision? Absolutely, because Alabama and the
4:06
South in particular has been ground zero
4:08
for the fight for voting rights and
4:10
the fight for black Americans to have
4:12
voting rights. Alabama, a few
4:15
years ago, last decade, had another
4:17
important case, the Shelby versus Holder
4:19
decision, which ended pre-clearance requirements, which
4:21
meant that several states and jurisdictions
4:23
that had racist voting laws had
4:25
to get the federal government to
4:27
clear any voting changes to make
4:29
sure they weren't discriminatory. And so,
4:31
Alabama, and particularly that part of the
4:34
black belt, has had this key decades
4:36
long role in the fight for equal
4:38
representation for black people. Yeah,
4:40
and I mean, the world of voting
4:42
has never been the same since that
4:44
Shelby versus Holder ruling. I mean, the
4:46
Brennan Center has noted that voter participation
4:48
among people of color has decreased. There
4:50
used to be, we're getting kind of
4:52
close to parity around the 2008 election.
4:55
And since then, people of color are voting
4:57
at smaller rates than they were then. And
5:00
a lot of that has to do with
5:02
the fact that places like Alabama, well, states
5:04
across the country, mostly Republican led states have
5:07
created more restrictive voting laws. And also,
5:09
yes, I mean, congressional voting maps affect
5:11
how people vote. If you are a voter
5:13
in a district where this is a
5:15
new neighborhoods to you, new people to you,
5:18
you are going to feel less inclined, especially
5:20
if you feel like the voting power of
5:22
people like you has been reduced from one
5:24
year to the next. That's going to affect
5:27
how you look at elections and whether you
5:29
feel compelled to vote. So I do think
5:31
like the ramifications of not
5:34
just Shelby versus Holder has been
5:36
really stark, but I think
5:38
we are kind of in a different world when
5:40
it comes to the voting patterns of people in
5:42
the South right now. Well, and there had been
5:44
this sense growing among election experts, right, Stephen, that
5:47
this court was going to not be
5:49
very friendly to the Voting Rights Act
5:51
because of the previous rulings that had
5:54
come out. Was this kind of a
5:56
surprise to experts that they decided that
5:58
Alabama did need to... another
6:01
district that black voters would actually have
6:03
a say? It was a surprise, Miles.
6:05
I mean, the direction of the court
6:07
and the direction of, I mean, I
6:09
think Chief Justice Roberts said, you know,
6:11
basically that like we've moved past this
6:13
idea that there's discrimination in voting and
6:15
there's discrimination in patterns and behaviors. And
6:17
it was expected that kind of like,
6:19
you know, we don't need the Voting
6:21
Rights Act anymore because like, we're better
6:24
than that. And so people were bracing
6:26
for the Supreme Court to kind of
6:28
further weaken the Voting Rights Act in
6:30
the immediate ramifications. It's not just
6:32
Alabama that has seen these redistricting
6:34
challenges be successful and kind of
6:37
change the lay of the land.
6:39
Yeah. And just from like a technical
6:41
aspect, I would say it's also very strange
6:43
to get a ruling so close to elections.
6:45
Like usually courts will not like to rule on
6:47
maps so close to elections. I mean, not
6:49
just like the fact that there's a runoff
6:51
in Alabama later, but in election years, like this
6:54
presidential election years, the courts tend to sort
6:56
of wait it out just because they
6:58
don't want to have any sort of like a political effect
7:01
on an election with a ruling. I know. I always
7:03
feel bad for voters whenever there's big court cases
7:05
like this that keep going back and forth and
7:07
back and forth. Like I would be really confused
7:09
if I was an Alabama voter right now. To
7:11
that point, this isn't over. I mean, there's a
7:14
trial in February 2025 over these maps that could
7:17
mean that the lines will change once
7:19
again and that this majority black district,
7:21
this probably Democratic district could go back
7:23
to its old shape and way. So
7:25
it's very, very confusing. And so part
7:27
of the representation piece too with the
7:29
people that I talked to is
7:32
getting voters engaged and paying attention to what's
7:34
happening because they may show up to the
7:36
polls and be like, I thought I was
7:38
voting for such and such. Well, it's like,
7:40
no, that's not your district anymore. Or people
7:42
that could be discouraged because they're like, oh,
7:45
it's a Republican district. I'm a Democrat. Like
7:47
I don't feel like I need to show
7:49
up and vote. So like there's multiple angles
7:52
to this that goes beyond just
7:54
the raw numbers of is it a Democrat?
7:56
Is it a Republican? What's the delegation? What's
7:58
the percentage of things like that? So like
8:00
it's a very complicated story that is ever
8:03
changing because of the way the courts act All right. Let's
8:05
take a quick break and more on this when we
8:07
get back And
8:10
we're back and so we've had all
8:13
of these fights over and over again the last few
8:15
years over What this district was
8:17
going to look like? Right
8:19
now there is a district that voters on
8:21
Tuesday are going to vote in Can you
8:24
tell us about the election on Tuesday Steven
8:26
who's running? What's at stake? Yeah, so this
8:28
is a primary runoff both in the Democratic
8:30
side and the Republican side There
8:33
is no incumbent in this seat last
8:35
month during Super Tuesday There was the
8:38
primary election ton of candidates from both
8:40
parties ran also in the
8:42
neighboring district Alabama's first district saw
8:44
a Republican member-on-member matchup where the
8:46
more conservative Barry Moore defeated representative
8:49
Jerry Carl But in this district, we've
8:51
got two Democrats in the runoff two Republicans
8:53
in the runoff on the Democratic
8:55
side You have Shamari
8:57
figures who's a mobile based
8:59
candidate who his parents
9:01
were lawmakers in the Alabama Legislature he
9:03
worked in the Obama White House for
9:06
a little bit and has strong family
9:08
ties to the area Facing off against
9:10
Anthony Daniels the Alabama State House minority
9:12
leader This gets to another interesting part
9:15
of representation because Daniels lives in Huntsville,
9:17
which is the complete opposite corner of
9:19
the state so talking with Some
9:22
of the people on the ground there there
9:25
was this sense that you know representation doesn't
9:27
just mean electing someone who looks like You
9:29
they have to know the area and they
9:31
have to be a part of the community
9:34
to be able to accurately represent them and
9:36
then On the Republican side you have Dick
9:38
Brubaker a businessman former state senator and Caroline
9:40
Dobson She's an attorney and political newcomer they're
9:43
trying to get the Republican nomination and one
9:45
of the reasons this is important miles is
9:47
because this isn't a Guaranteed victory for
9:49
the Democrats That's what I was gonna ask is like
9:51
is this the way some of the coverage has been
9:54
in the last few months It feels like almost like
9:56
a shoe in for Democrats that this was going to
9:58
play a huge role in who can controlled the
10:00
house, but you're saying that's not the case?
10:02
Well, people have to show up and vote.
10:04
And it's not purely a majority black district.
10:06
It's nearly majority black, I believe about 48%
10:09
by some of the measurements. But people have to
10:12
actually show up and vote. And so that's why
10:14
the people involved in the lawsuit
10:16
and other black voters that I talked to
10:18
are motivated to get people to show up
10:20
for this runoff and get people to show
10:22
up in November because you still have to
10:24
show up to vote to win. And so
10:26
in an environment where people are motivated on
10:28
both sides of the aisle and with a
10:30
presidential race at the top of the ticket,
10:32
it's no guarantee. Actually, I
10:34
feel like there, anytime there
10:37
is a big court decision that
10:39
affects one state, my thought
10:41
always goes to there's probably people
10:43
in a bunch of other states who now their
10:45
gears are turning on how this can impact them,
10:48
whether they're thinking about bringing challenges themselves based on
10:50
this. Do we know at all
10:53
what the ripple effects of this
10:55
decision in Alabama means
10:57
in other states potentially in the South
10:59
or anywhere else? Well, I mean,
11:01
it's always a big deal when especially the
11:04
Supreme Court makes a ruling
11:06
like this because it does sort of signal
11:08
where the court is standing on voting rights
11:10
issues. Like as you mentioned earlier, voting
11:12
rights advocates across the country were pretty
11:14
disillusioned with the fact that Shelby versus
11:17
Holder was like a ruling that came
11:19
down and that the VRA, the voting
11:21
rights act has taken quite a few hits under the
11:23
Roberts court. Not
11:26
just to focus on that one ruling, but I
11:29
think it is a sign that the
11:31
courts at least are taking these
11:34
kinds of cases seriously.
11:36
And we're talking about sort of what's
11:38
called like racial gerrymandering because the courts
11:41
have said time and time again, especially
11:43
the Supreme Court that they have like
11:45
no interest in cases that have to
11:47
do with sort of partisan gerrymandering. And
11:49
that's a party drawing districts that favor
11:52
their party. And because party and race
11:54
are sort of commingled and inextricably linked
11:56
in American politics the way they are,
11:58
it's kind of harder sometimes. to
12:00
make sure there's no sort of like racial effect
12:02
when these kind of lines are drawn. So I
12:04
do think it is interesting whenever there is a
12:06
case that is one, especially in
12:08
the South, that it sort of
12:11
upholds the voting rights of people of color
12:13
because a lot of times those cases get
12:15
sort of bogged down and the
12:17
wellness is, you know, we were right drawing
12:20
maps that favor our party like you know there's
12:22
no, there's nothing illegal here, nothing to
12:24
see here. So I do think it has at
12:26
least that sort of impact. A case
12:28
in point with the way the courts
12:31
handle things, you know, look at Louisiana
12:33
where because of the Alabama ruling, there's
12:35
an additional majority black district where voters
12:37
there should be able to elect the
12:40
candidate of their choice that should also
12:42
see a Democrat elected. But then in
12:44
Georgia, they also had a case before
12:47
the federal judge where the lawmakers added
12:49
more majority black districts on paper, but
12:51
did so in such a way that
12:54
didn't actually change the partisan outcome. So
12:56
on paper, black voters have
12:58
more representation, but they won't be
13:00
electing any more Democrats because of it.
13:02
So it really is dependent on where
13:05
these cases are filed when and in
13:07
time. And so I mean, it's a
13:09
fleeting, you know, in many ways, it's
13:11
a fleeting feeling. Yeah, and literally what
13:13
courts like what judges are in these
13:15
courts, because I feel like I bring
13:17
this up a lot, but the courts
13:19
changed a lot, especially on the appellate
13:21
level, during the Trump administration, a lot
13:24
of voting rights that complaints going before
13:26
courts in places like the Fifth Circuit,
13:28
for example, they don't usually side with
13:30
voting groups and voters of color. In
13:32
those cases, they usually side with a
13:34
sort of Republican led state. So it
13:36
really just depends like where in the
13:38
country you are sometimes. Stephen,
13:40
can you talk a little bit more about
13:42
how campaigns how this is actually affects the
13:45
political apparatus in Alabama? Because I
13:47
did just pull up the map
13:50
showing the district, it is big. And
13:52
it touches a lot of different geographic areas, like
13:55
you mentioned. And I just wonder if you are
13:57
running a campaign or if your person is trying
13:59
to mobilize voters, how a map changing
14:01
like this changes your strategy in terms
14:03
of – are they
14:05
having to rethink the kinds of voters they're
14:08
trying to mobilize? How are they rethinking strategy?
14:10
Well, you know, looking at the
14:12
map – and I encourage you to look at
14:14
the map because it's fascinating to see the different
14:16
shapes of the districts and how this works. You
14:18
know, Mobile and Montgomery
14:20
are two of the largest majority black
14:22
cities in the country, and
14:25
they're large urban areas, but Mobile
14:27
and the Mobile Bay is a
14:29
completely different vibe than Montgomery and
14:31
the state capitol, and the rural black
14:33
belt that runs between the two is
14:35
completely different. So thinking about campaigning on
14:38
both sides of the aisle, you have
14:40
to think about people that are in
14:42
urban areas, people that are in rural
14:44
areas, people that have completely different ways
14:47
of life and priorities and things that
14:49
you have to balance in a way
14:51
that maybe is a little bit different
14:53
than, like, say, the congressional district where
14:56
I live, which is almost entirely the
14:58
city of Atlanta, which is almost
15:00
the same type of people, the same type of needs,
15:02
the same type of that. And so it's
15:05
going to be challenging because what's good for
15:07
Mobile might not be good for Montgomery, and
15:09
what you need if you're a farmer in
15:11
the black belt might not resonate the same
15:13
way with somebody who lives in Montgomery. And
15:15
so it does make things
15:17
challenging because not only is it a new
15:19
district line, but you have so many different
15:22
constituencies you have to deal with, and that
15:24
also includes encouraging them to actually show up
15:26
and vote. Alright, well we will be watching
15:28
that primary runoff election on Tuesday and maybe
15:30
hearing from you then, Stephen. Let's leave
15:32
it there for today. I'm Miles Parks, I cover
15:34
voting. I'm Ashley Lopez, I also cover voting.
15:37
I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover politics. And thank
15:39
you for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.
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