0:02

This is a Global Player

0:04

original podcast. Elon Musk has

0:06

no social conscience or conscience whatsoever.

0:09

I don't know whatever Elon Musk

0:11

is on, it says that that's

0:13

okay. To continue there, that is

0:15

absolutely disgusting behaviour. And quite frankly,

0:17

the bloke should be jailed. That's

0:19

Australia's independent legislator, Jackie Lambie, talking

0:22

about Elon Musk. Her

0:24

views on Elon Musk, don't end

0:26

there. Like I've already said, I think he's a

0:28

social media knob with no social conscience. Yeah,

0:31

a social media knob with no

0:33

social conscience. The heart of all

0:35

of this is video

0:37

that is available on X of

0:39

the horrible stabbing that

0:41

took place at a church in

0:44

Sydney a week ago. And

0:46

it raises a question that governments

0:48

around the world are dealing with,

0:50

but it's coming to sharpest focus

0:53

in Australia about who

0:55

is more powerful. The duly elected

0:57

government of the day or an

0:59

American tech billionaire. Welcome

1:02

to the News Agents. The

1:07

News Agents. It's

1:10

Jon. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And later in

1:12

the podcast, we're going to be talking about

1:15

small boats, legislation, the

1:18

fact that it has now passed, but

1:20

also another five

1:23

deaths in the channel overnight,

1:25

including a small child. We're

1:28

going to come on to that.

1:30

But first, we're going to start

1:32

with Elon Musk, who's been called

1:34

an arrogant billionaire by none other

1:36

than Australia's prime minister. He's essentially

1:38

clashed over this question of what

1:40

should be allowed to stay on

1:42

Twitter after that

1:45

appalling stabbing that John was describing

1:47

in a Sydney church, because a

1:49

federal court in Sydney has granted

1:52

what they're calling a temporary global

1:54

ban. So it's not just

1:56

in Australia that this applies. It

1:58

is worldwide. after

2:01

ex-Twitter, Elon Musk's newly

2:03

revamped site, has said

2:05

it will challenge Australia's

2:07

safety commissioner over questions

2:09

of freedom of expression, which is

2:11

his thing. Yeah, and

2:13

essentially this relates to

2:16

particularly harrowing violent

2:18

images that people had

2:20

recorded in the vicinity

2:22

of that attack. And the Australian government are

2:24

saying that they don't think there is any

2:27

need for that footage to

2:29

be made public. They think it is

2:31

disrespectful to the victims, they think it's

2:33

disrespectful to the victims' families. And then

2:35

you have Musk saying on the other

2:37

hand, in this kind of

2:39

like Hobbesian view that he takes about

2:41

information, this kind of sort of state

2:43

of nature view that he thinks that

2:46

the internet should basically be relatively unregulated,

2:48

anchoring it in freedom of expression. And

2:50

his view is that the Australian government,

2:52

if you allow A governments

2:55

to have a kind of global ban on

2:57

something, then effectively you have no

2:59

democratic accountability worldwide because they are

3:01

policing the internet independently. Because

3:04

just to take you back a bit, this attack, which

3:06

was on a guy called Marmari Emmanuel,

3:09

was pretty horrible, but

3:11

Australia's position, Australia's government,

3:13

believes that social media

3:15

posts like this are

3:17

actually inflaming community tensions. So they're not

3:20

just saying nobody should see the aftermath

3:22

of an attack like this, they're saying

3:24

when you start showing images like

3:26

this, you are creating an

3:29

atmosphere in which this kind of stuff,

3:31

or retaliation for this kind of stuff,

3:33

could happen again. And I

3:35

think it's worth just explaining where Australia

3:38

has stood on this, which is they

3:40

have an online safety act brought in

3:42

about what, three years ago, 2021, and

3:45

they have been at the forefronts of efforts to

3:47

hold tech companies responsible for the

3:50

content posted on their platforms.

3:52

And I guess this is arguably the

3:55

biggest global question really

3:57

about regulation, about how...

4:00

countries sort of work together or

4:02

find a way to make

4:04

global rules about things that

4:06

naturally you would want to

4:08

police or legislate on individually.

4:10

Yeah, and so as a result,

4:12

this has intensified to the very highest

4:14

levels of Australian politics as we've been

4:17

saying. The Australian Prime Minister Antinol Benazie

4:19

has, it's not just this independent MP with

4:22

noted, he has criticised Musk and Twitter in

4:24

particular in the strongest terms. Well,

4:26

this is a bloke who's chosen ego

4:29

and showing violence over

4:32

common sense. I

4:34

think that Australians will shake their

4:36

head when they think that this

4:38

billionaire is prepared to go

4:40

to court fighting for the

4:42

right to sow division and

4:46

to show violent videos which

4:48

are very distressing. He

4:50

is in social media, but

4:53

he has a social responsibility

4:56

in order to have that social

4:58

licence. And what

5:00

has occurred here is that

5:02

the E-Safety Commissioner has made

5:05

very sensible suggestions. Other

5:08

social media companies have complied

5:11

without complaint. But this

5:13

bloke thinks he's above the Australian

5:15

law, that he's above

5:18

common decency. And

5:20

I tell you what, I say

5:22

to Elon Musk that

5:24

he is so out of touch with

5:27

what the Australian public want.

5:30

This has been a distressing time. I'll

5:32

believe that they're saying that Musk doesn't

5:34

care about Australian law. Well, yeah, absolutely.

5:36

He doesn't. It's very, very clear. It's not entirely clear what

5:39

law Musk cares about. If he does, it will probably

5:41

only be US law because it's the one that causes him

5:43

the greatest headaches. But I think, as

5:45

Elon was saying, the key point with this

5:47

is it's not just about the graphic imagery.

5:49

The point is that this all goes back

5:52

to the changed nature of Twitter In

5:54

the Musk era, which is we all know

5:56

over the last 10 years, Twitter became the

5:59

go-to news source. The quickly for real

6:01

time events like terror attacks and

6:03

people were getting their information in

6:05

real time from it and you

6:07

know it wasn't always completely accurate.

6:09

But when you had the Blue

6:11

Tix system where you had verified

6:13

users who represented independent, credible, authoritative

6:15

news organizations generalise, it wasn't usually

6:17

wrong or at least not profoundly

6:20

self obviously in the mascara that's

6:22

completely changed and this was a

6:24

case in point. So when the

6:26

Bondi Jumps attacks took place basically

6:28

within minutes, you had a profound

6:30

misinformation. Going around you have thousands of

6:32

found that was a study just in

6:34

last couple of days from the or

6:36

at least one hundred and forty thousand

6:38

posts on X Twitter falsely claiming the

6:40

attacker was either Jewish or Muslim. That

6:42

was you'd millions of times those will

6:44

pick up in Britain and then regurgitated

6:46

by commentators and political analysts who had

6:48

their own kind of political cause to

6:50

try and follow. So it is a

6:52

case study for me. It's in the.

6:55

Dangers. Of Twitter acts

6:57

as a real time news aggregator

6:59

in the must gear for which

7:01

it has become extremely damaging. Yet

7:03

the conspiracy theories were mainly around

7:05

what had happened as needs a

7:07

couple of days earlier or the

7:09

Bond I shopping center with six

7:11

people have been killed and there

7:13

was a tennis match conspiracy theory

7:15

that was.going by some rush and

7:17

blogger who is wealth he's Australian

7:19

of Russian heritage who has taken

7:21

refuge in the Russian Embassy. In.

7:24

Australia on we now know it was

7:26

this kind of forty year old missile

7:28

to this from Queensland I think who

7:30

kind of was just a right old

7:33

weirdos who did it and yet that

7:35

stuff is allowed to proliferates. But you

7:37

look at what Musk says he says

7:39

all concerns is that it's any concrete

7:42

is allowed to censor content for all

7:44

countries which is what the Australian and

7:46

he calls her the safety com is

7:48

sobs is demanding they what's to stop

7:51

any country from from truly. The entire

7:53

incidents are. So ears kind of say look

7:55

this is the slippery slope if we allow

7:57

the Australians to do this that every the

7:59

country around the world will be trying to

8:01

do it. And so this is a big

8:03

aside the just about what people see in

8:06

Australia. Yeah, I'm I think it's also

8:08

possibly naive to think that this

8:10

is musk. Ideology in or the

8:12

also Free Speech. This is about power

8:14

and this is about. Commercial interests.

8:17

And this is about the who fundamentally

8:19

wins. And I think Musk knows the

8:21

other nations and what's in this closely

8:23

to Australia probably more often than we

8:25

realize, is at the forefront of quite

8:27

big social change, right? You're nodding. I

8:29

mean, you know Salem better than any

8:31

of us here, but they were the

8:33

ones who introduced plain packaging for. Tobacco

8:35

Rights which. When you

8:38

think back to it now seems

8:40

salute Li obvious right? And the

8:42

whole world has copied that. That

8:44

will have been a massive hole

8:46

in tobacco companies pockets. When that was

8:48

first, Moose is no strategist. What? the? Above the

8:50

them were gonna do it. Now if

8:52

Australia gets its way than that is

8:54

actually gonna hit the pockets not just

8:56

of mosques but have you no matter

8:58

or of whoever decides that their platform

9:01

is no longer platforms it is being

9:03

editorial. Control was. This is my first

9:05

battle with my social media companies if

9:07

you go back to Twenty Twenty one

9:09

and it was a very different governments

9:11

than it was the government of Scott

9:13

Morrison who was kind of right populists

9:15

tooth kind of became very unpopular. Reviewed

9:17

the huge Btc with since when did

9:19

you didn't you say you have to

9:21

pay news for visitors to listed centered

9:23

and put it on to be split

9:25

of. Band A Street

9:28

is. For

9:30

a while. Yeah, you know, because it was

9:32

a kid. Another showdown. Between these

9:35

by keepers and national. Tech

9:38

companies the have got

9:40

phenomenal financials fall. Again,

9:43

small governments who said he wasn't over

9:45

to say to get a local news

9:47

organizations have you know that was what

9:49

happened then or now? Try to uphold

9:52

law and order in Australia on their

9:54

finding it very very difficult indeed against

9:56

these mighty corporations. I think this is

9:58

an opening skirmish. In the

10:01

battle between states and particularly western states

10:03

of liberal democratic friends who look into

10:05

trying to shore up the that democracy

10:07

and companies like Musk this is a

10:09

minutes to some of those be going

10:11

on on for a long time but

10:13

as sites like Twitter and Eggs or

10:15

as the technology continues to progress an

10:17

ai and detects become a bigger and

10:19

bigger elements. this is a a battle

10:21

that many politicians of wants to doc

10:23

because I don't want to take on

10:25

matter or they don't want cycles with

10:27

or frankly many them just don't know

10:29

how because it. Does require collective action because

10:31

Musk and all of these people have on their

10:33

side that it is hard to regulate the internet.

10:36

Musk is say oh this will mean that the

10:38

Internet is going to wind up being regulated or

10:40

police will. Quite frankly lot of people would welcome

10:42

it in the sense that as we know last

10:45

thirty years or basically since it's inception it has

10:47

more or less been a wild West. It has

10:49

been something that has escaped global regulation because it

10:51

is impossible. Very difficult to do but it is

10:54

a conversation that Western policymakers and politicians are gonna

10:56

have to have because is the sides are going

10:58

to remain in any sense sort of part. Of

11:00

the public sphere basically during elections and deep

11:03

fags, an ai at all, these things continue

11:05

to proliferate. We're gonna have to do something

11:07

because it cannot just be again. This sort

11:09

of state of nature situation where you just

11:11

sort of believe where you want to believe

11:14

because if that happens than it is basically

11:16

impossible to have a public square. And therefore

11:18

it is impossible to have democracy. Gloves, You

11:20

can't have democracy when you can't trust what

11:22

you see. I think that such see

11:24

why. To think regulation is inevitable and it

11:27

is a sign of maturity of any and

11:29

venture. You know the says most call probably

11:31

didn't have speed limits rights. We didn't

11:33

have to have a highway code

11:35

in this was nineteen twenties. As

11:37

such, the idea that you will

11:39

never. Regulate. The internet is quite frankly

11:41

so the bull markets a regular news you

11:43

are every. Market is regulated and

11:46

you know I am not a

11:48

fan of the old slippery slope

11:50

argument, but imagine. That we

11:52

never put. The brakes on. So.

11:55

violent images rights is it anything

11:57

that stuff switzer from just becoming

12:00

you know, apart from your

12:02

deepfakes, a site for complete

12:04

pornography, a site for enough

12:06

movies. Well, yeah, it is. I

12:08

mean, I guess the question is, you

12:11

cannot regulate how people share this stuff.

12:13

So if it's on, it's

12:15

on. And if it's off, then that's

12:17

the only guarantee you've got. We are talking

12:19

about what has happened in Australia 10,000 miles

12:21

away. Let's bring

12:24

it closer to home. And the deepfake

12:26

audio that was produced of Sadiq Khan

12:28

around the time of Remembrance Sunday, which

12:30

is him saying, you know, he wanted

12:32

it to be a million man march

12:34

in London, pro-Palestinian and the Metropolitan Police

12:36

will do what I tell them to

12:38

do because I'm the boss. Like

12:40

I just said, and this is a private conversation, the

12:43

Prime Minister meeting with Mark yesterday is

12:46

a complete waste of time. The buck stops

12:48

with me. Mark reports to me. I

12:51

know we have Armistice Day on Saturday, but why

12:54

should Londoners cancel the Palestinian march on

12:56

Saturday? Why don't they have Remembrance

12:58

weekend next weekend? What's

13:01

happening in Gaza is much bigger than

13:03

this weekend and it's current. It sounded

13:05

just like Sadiq Khan. It was totally

13:07

a fake. It ricochets around

13:09

kind of Twitter and the internet, kind

13:12

of unbelievable velocity. But that's a harder

13:14

argument, actually. What the point I'm making

13:16

is that a lot of the social

13:18

media companies have tried very hard to

13:20

regulate and they have got people who

13:22

kind of intervene to try and take

13:24

down fake stuff and take it down fast

13:26

because they know the damage that this can

13:29

do and that there are bad

13:31

actors out there, China, Russia, who want to

13:33

so discontent. So bear with me. And Twitter

13:35

has kind of, you know, abandoned all of

13:37

that. So what happens, right, is this

13:39

video of the church that gets taken down

13:42

and somebody contrives to put up

13:45

content that is absolutely fake, that is not

13:47

real, but that shows this kind of level

13:49

of violence. I mean, I don't, do you

13:51

see what I mean? I don't know then

13:53

what you're regulating. Are you regulating the actual

13:56

video, the actual images themselves, or

13:58

are you regulating anyone? Copying that

14:00

well, I suppose you break it down right so

14:02

it is interesting just to take the sort

14:04

of violence element just to start with It's interesting

14:07

right because we've all worked in TV news

14:09

where actually we wouldn't show that stuff, right? Or

14:11

we know that we have rules about show bodies

14:13

We all yeah We all know that there

14:15

is a very strict set of rules within British

14:17

broadcasting about kind of the level of how Graphic

14:20

the images you will be and if you

14:22

are in a particularly like you're in a terrorist

14:24

attack or in a war zone or whatever You

14:26

will have really horrible pictures that cameraman with

14:28

crew will have picked up And you

14:30

don't have warnings if you get anywhere close

14:32

to showing disturbing images Yeah, exactly So we're

14:34

going from that world which is the world

14:36

that basically until quite recently has still been

14:38

on the present and dominant So

14:41

a world where already you can

14:43

basically see any of this stuff and indeed Gaza

14:45

has been a great example, right? God's the internet

14:47

right now you go on it. People will have

14:49

seen it within 30 seconds You will find the

14:51

most graphic images and there is a question about

14:53

you know, maybe some of those rules I always

14:55

thought to some extent a little were rather too

14:57

strict on British broadcasting because sometimes

14:59

I felt that there was occasionally a kind of

15:02

Infantilizing kind of level of kind of what people

15:04

could and shouldn't see but clearly going to a

15:06

kind of no rules whatsoever Or

15:08

a world where you've got someone like musk who is completely

15:10

unbothered and met her as well My friends exactly

15:13

the same Instagram is full of those Gaza images or

15:15

tiktok Then that is a completely different world and

15:17

is one that we haven't even really started to

15:20

think about or considered I mean the infantilizing point

15:22

is interesting I would have said it was sanitizing

15:24

and you know, and I've Been

15:27

there when you've got footage which is horrific

15:29

And what we tend to do in

15:31

war coverage on the conventional news media is

15:33

you show what happens when a shell

15:35

is fired You see the rocket

15:37

coming out of the rocket launcher You don't see

15:39

what happened when it lands on a pile of

15:41

human bodies and we don't show that

15:43

and so we end up Sanitizing the kind of

15:46

drama and the horror of what war is and

15:48

I think that is a very valid point But

15:50

I do think that with falsehood if

15:53

we are not going to stand up

15:55

and say this cannot stand Then

15:58

We risk undermining our democracy. Because

16:00

people have no idea what to believe and the

16:02

have to be sources. I mean we may be

16:04

fighting a losing battle but by God we gotta

16:07

have to fight you. Then it was no it.

16:09

That's my point. I mean we know you don't

16:11

was with noise full so do your example. Of

16:13

how quickly that in a spread about the

16:15

inner the immigrant or the Jewish guy who

16:17

has the perpetrators us in Sydney is a

16:20

classic example. I will. I'll only contact moderators full

16:22

to be doing their job on social media or

16:24

you had what used to have with Switzer I

16:26

which is where you had a proper were buffer

16:28

for closeness of and people could at least with

16:30

the blue take know of course as people make

16:32

mistakes and would make mistakes but if they did

16:35

than expectation would be to the email corrections it

16:37

and I do wonder whether a minute if must

16:39

divisional Twitter sort of continues in he keeps holding

16:41

the company. I do think actually newsrooms and reputable

16:43

news organizations probably do have to have like. The

16:45

deep thinking about whether being on Twitter or

16:48

X whether the balance has actually tits to

16:50

the point when we are giving the site

16:52

a credibility that no longer deserve someone who

16:54

was always a conversation we will win part

16:56

of it in in newsrooms about kind of

16:59

how much you social media and what the

17:01

drawbacks. all but I was felt strongly that

17:03

the. Pros: Always outweigh the minuses

17:05

because it was me if all of its faults

17:07

it was it of real time information thing that

17:09

people use and people found useful and it was

17:11

usually accurate. You contributed to that in the musk

17:13

world I don't think that's true anymore he got

17:15

no as if you've got no idea on whether

17:18

we are just and whether I mean you no

17:20

one would hope or had her they may be

17:22

a rival would come along and take it's place

17:24

that hasn't happened is also questions. As a

17:26

suit my two cities x feet

17:28

is full of these amazing little

17:30

nature's it is. Now they'll send

17:32

Sweet Rights icon. New idea is

17:34

they seem like a I'd the

17:36

got little dancing hundred and people

17:38

like the monkey salt and eat

17:41

till that mean it's honestly as

17:43

much as my dream sizes and

17:45

I were outside his office. By

17:47

that much world is a perfect for

17:49

make this a spice. I don't even

17:51

know whether to believe the native It. Is no

17:53

longer employed. I'm so skeptical of whatever

17:55

I'm saying we need At some point

17:57

when he says it's on the weather.

18:00

I'm like wait a some point in

18:03

order for a democracy was we're going

18:05

to need on online news site aggregator

18:07

something that people come together. the people

18:10

can have confidence interesting and if we

18:12

don't have that then it's loss And

18:14

the one thing I'm surprised about so

18:16

far is that no competitors emerged to

18:19

try as displace. it's done and your

18:21

everything we said about Twitter will be

18:23

putting stuff on this show on twitter

18:26

later circle because I don't know if

18:28

we don't because if we don't do

18:30

that then we are surrendering a space

18:33

to even more the fantasies through their

18:35

faces. We don't even have a regulator of

18:37

social media yet to. I mean it isn't so

18:39

he like the of com but we kind of

18:42

know. The remit of the job, right? We know

18:44

where it operates as a thing. We. Will

18:46

often does have of coming from Huston over social

18:48

mean of Covenants wrestling and we have said yes

18:50

a has a regular we function of yeah but

18:53

it's it's pretty weak and and is still as

18:55

we know without unfunded mandate a lot Yeah they

18:57

don't quite know how non with a laugh are

18:59

speaking to one of your of cobblers who's dealing

19:02

with his stuff and maybe dealing with try keep

19:04

pornography off inside of the social media sites at

19:06

the moment. I mean how many lawyers does of

19:08

com have against how many millions of videos is

19:10

a being loaded is every cause five minutes some

19:13

sub zero one of it the laugh when you

19:15

thinking about the people. Who are going to take

19:17

on these companies? Have a look on you know

19:19

civil Service web site and see the amount of

19:21

money the of the regulators in the space will

19:23

be getting paid and then you compare it to

19:26

sort of money that the and valley senators are

19:28

not eating as a eighty you know I mean

19:30

the disparities will be obsolete enormous as a capacity

19:32

of the British state and frankly and he said

19:34

maybe not a Mac and certainly in Europe to

19:36

at seat now outside the U In particular because

19:39

he has been more robust on the staff Collectively

19:41

it's written in particular find itself especially exposed in

19:43

terms of the state capacity to be able to

19:45

take on these. Companies and to know how to

19:47

do with Thank you Just technologically more than anything

19:49

else is David and Goliath. The

20:01

News Agency. And

20:07

levels need for him at Santa

20:09

Claus and child is understood to

20:11

be among five people who have

20:13

died following a failed attempt to

20:15

cross the channel government's flanks it

20:17

ruins of policy pass through parliament

20:19

in the early hours after so

20:21

down with peers came to an

20:23

end of with conjunction of events

20:25

isn't it that. On. The one

20:27

hand you have received that. So

20:30

just after midnight last night celebrating

20:32

victory and getting the legislation through

20:34

the House of Commons on the

20:36

Lords and you think right okay

20:39

what happens now went to the

20:41

planes takeoff and as we discuss

20:43

yesterday still quite a while way

20:46

and then today the reality of

20:48

the channels and the small base.

20:51

Or more people drowning And I'm sure

20:53

if you're really see that you say,

20:55

well. That is why we need to

20:57

solve the problem. And I'm sure if you're skeptic

20:59

you say. This. Is not

21:02

going to stop the small boats. There

21:04

is no evidence to say that this

21:06

is going to act as a deterrent

21:08

on this, is going to go on

21:10

and on and on and. Me: This is

21:12

a. A horrific human trustee

21:14

system for my switches that five

21:16

people including a child. Have

21:18

died in the tunnel and the

21:20

reason so that. Are actually pretty

21:22

obvious and pretty simple that the

21:24

conditions for traveling with good. It's

21:27

not. Windy at the moment. it's not saw

21:29

me the season com. On the

21:31

transit is a tried to pile way

21:33

too many people onto the boats not

21:35

that they should be taking any one

21:37

but in this case there are one

21:40

hundred and twelve people on board. what

21:42

we think is being a single thingies

21:44

and it got grounded on some bank.

21:46

It was being relaunched when people lost.

21:48

Their lives on. I think the mistake

21:50

in a way that we make is

21:53

to try and connect that to what

21:55

we know happens in the Commons and

21:57

in the Lord's in Parliament overnight as

21:59

it's. How these people were thinking,

22:02

oh, the legislation's done, can we

22:04

risk it's I think we are

22:06

kidding ourselves if we think that

22:08

people in that state. Of absolutely

22:10

dire need. Of what

22:13

sing and understanding the various

22:15

amendments. Going on with in

22:17

of parliament then knows there was

22:19

very little research to suggest that

22:22

refugees consider the migration policies of

22:24

their destination when they're choosing where

22:27

to move because most of the

22:29

time they do, they're looking that

22:31

following the tone to sign and

22:34

policies. For even the

22:36

economic conditions of legislation countries

22:38

they are seeing pictures. They

22:41

are being message. What south

22:43

by relatives on their

22:45

understanding? Of Britain being a place of

22:48

welcome or place of great opportunities his first

22:50

and foremost in there lies the thing is

22:52

is some distance who was These deaths on

22:55

the shuttle had become normalized or the other?

22:57

When we a nice night we have to

22:59

be doing a special. On. That

23:01

day. And never miss when he twenty

23:03

one when that he says he people drowned and

23:05

it was massive news on a case that were

23:08

more people including children then. but it's happens sort

23:10

of. Have been pots apart. Punctuation

23:12

of the use of on and off every couple

23:14

of months may be less you have of these

23:16

one person's you people by the way there are

23:18

probably many more as well because everybody's as any

23:20

more she speaks the koska will tell you that

23:22

a never found or if they are found that

23:24

found years later I'm I'm going to have visual

23:26

reports and use my on it on old the

23:28

numbers who has been of the numbers have club

23:30

bodies to been found, someone made a mural of

23:32

it and so many of them which are smart

23:34

with a number next them with x is no

23:36

one of an as a nice dinner where they

23:38

came from. Though. know what their

23:41

story was i'm i'm i'm will never

23:43

know i'm into rwanda policy oversee there

23:45

is this weird of synergies of of

23:47

these events and i'm the thing is

23:49

is the i think is there is

23:51

a case that with the world on

23:53

the move a process which is only

23:55

accelerating they may well be a case

23:57

for stronger case in time for some

23:59

form of of processing, it is something

24:01

that more countries are doing in Europe or

24:03

at least investigating because the capacity to absorb

24:05

the numbers is so limited and indeed there

24:07

is an EU project to try and sort

24:09

of have quotas and share numbers

24:11

and so on to try and deal with with

24:13

the numbers who are coming because it is very

24:16

very substantial. But as you say Emily, I think

24:18

we are truly truly kidding ourselves if we believe

24:20

that Rwanda is going to make a substantial difference

24:22

one way or the other because it was always

24:24

seemed to me to have been devised by a

24:26

group of people who have never spoken to anyone

24:28

who are trying to cross and

24:30

that is because if you actually spend 30

24:33

minutes speaking to these people they

24:35

will tell you that the channel itself

24:38

where they know there is a risk of

24:40

death is not a deterrent. Now if the

24:42

channel itself and the risk of death is

24:44

not a deterrent the prospect of some of

24:46

them being sent to Rwanda, a

24:49

country about which they will know little, is

24:51

even less of a deterrent. They view all this stuff

24:54

you talk to them again and again they view it

24:56

and whether you think they're genuine refugees or not and

24:58

some are and some aren't but whatever you think they

25:00

have rolled the dice. They have rolled the dice

25:03

again and again and again to get to where

25:05

they're going it's been sometimes they've traveled thousands and

25:07

thousands of miles by foot by plane by bus

25:10

going on the back of a car all sorts

25:12

of unlikely stuff and it is so unlikely that

25:14

they've even got to Calais. So

25:17

just a couple more rolls of the dice will I get

25:19

over will I die will I not will I get sent

25:21

to Rwanda it's another roll of the dice and sometimes they

25:23

even think as we've talked about on the show before because

25:26

many are religious they think that they're being

25:28

guided by God and Providence and in with

25:30

you got that on your side honestly James

25:32

Cleverley or Sowelo Bravenman or flight to Rwanda

25:35

it's nothing. The other thing about it is

25:37

that I you know I was kind of

25:39

reading about how they're trying to the government

25:41

is trying to inform people in the camps

25:44

that this is the new government policy and

25:46

if you have come from Afghanistan

25:50

Syria North

25:52

Africa the whole or you've

25:54

come from Vietnam and

25:56

you've got as far as Calais and

25:59

there's 25 miles miles between

26:01

you, you think

26:03

I'm nearly there. You can see

26:05

it. And also the other

26:07

point about it is, and I'm

26:09

sure you've done a lot more of

26:11

this Lewis than I have recently, but 20 plus

26:14

years ago when I was in Paris, it

26:16

was people staring aboard lorries to try and

26:18

get over from Calais into the Channel Tunnel

26:20

and into Britain, not where, and that

26:23

route has been closed down because of better technology,

26:25

and so they try other routes. But these are

26:27

people who have got odd bits of

26:29

family who've already made it to Britain. And

26:31

usually the reason

26:33

they're coming is not because they believe

26:35

the streets of London are paved with

26:38

gold, it is believed because they have

26:40

already got family members there. And there

26:42

is a sense that there is a

26:44

bit of infrastructure that they can kind

26:46

of merge into very quickly with their

26:49

family groups. I think it's

26:51

perfectly legitimate for our government to say,

26:54

too many people are on the move trying

26:56

to come to this island. We get that.

26:59

And I think it is perfectly legitimate to

27:01

say it is abhorrent

27:03

what is going on with the trafficking

27:05

gangs, and they are the people responsible

27:07

for the death of so many. I

27:10

think what isn't clear is why they're

27:13

not targeting the gangs themselves, first

27:15

and foremost, if you are working

27:17

on a global level, if

27:19

you are able to catch criminals

27:21

globally, or go after terrorists

27:24

globally, I don't understand why you

27:26

wouldn't put these enormous sums of money, I

27:28

mean, hundreds of millions of pounds into smashing

27:30

the gangs to make it a deterrent for

27:32

the gangs, rather than for the people themselves.

27:35

The other thing I'd say, and presumably

27:38

this is, I mean, this is the kind of

27:40

biggest irony of all, is

27:42

that if you want to prevent people from

27:44

coming to this island, then

27:48

you do something that puts border

27:50

controls outside of the UK, which

27:53

is exactly what we did. We

27:55

moved our border controls to France in 2000,

27:58

then those sort of early 2000s. years,

28:01

it reduced asylum applications

28:03

to I think 28,000 when it's lowest

28:06

in 2006 and weirdly until 2015 we didn't

28:09

see a big rise in asylum seekers

28:16

not in numbers because our border

28:18

controls were in France. If you

28:20

want to try and solve this question you

28:22

need to work with your allies and

28:25

of course ironically that's kind of what we stopped

28:27

doing after 2016. Every time Rishi

28:30

Sunak hails Albania as a success

28:32

he's absolutely right he's a hundred

28:34

percent right that he massively reduced

28:36

the numbers of Albanians coming. Why? Because

28:39

he opened up talks, negotiations,

28:41

it was that simple. You make sure

28:43

you have a dialogue between the place they're

28:45

leaving and the place they're coming. We don't

28:47

have that at the moment. Well I suppose the

28:49

government would say that they you know they are

28:51

trying to crack down on the gangs and they

28:53

are they have invested money obviously they

28:55

could invest a random money as well and it is

28:58

fair to say as well that you know it's not

29:00

like it's the British government uniquely it's got a problem

29:02

with it the French government's got a problem with it

29:04

the Italian government you know it's really hard it's just

29:06

really really hard these these organizations are extremely

29:09

sophisticated they're extremely good at

29:11

what they do their currency

29:13

is people and

29:15

you know it's a bit like in a

29:17

way you can make an equivalent to the

29:20

war on drugs you know states have struggled

29:22

self-evidently to control the gangs and the cartels

29:24

that are producing and bringing in drugs

29:27

into Europe into North America every way. But

29:29

we don't lock up drug users. No we're

29:31

not in the same way. This is the

29:33

equivalent. We don't send drug users to prison.

29:36

We send the criminal gangs behind the drugs

29:38

to prison in a perfect world. You know

29:40

if you think at source the problem is

29:43

the gangs yeah why wouldn't you

29:45

just put all yours and you're right you know

29:47

it is maybe the same as as drug gangs

29:49

but but but that's got a

29:51

different response to it. It's not the truth

29:53

is I mean the truth is we're under policy right is

29:55

that as we know it is not sexy it's not it

29:58

when the policy is the sort of it's the

30:01

cracking down on the gangs and doing the sort

30:03

of hard yards, which actually the Home Office is

30:05

trying to do, Border Force is trying to do,

30:07

but it's not sexy. It's not something to tell,

30:09

give to the sun and the mail when you

30:12

are under such profound political pressure from the right.

30:14

And so Rwanda always was a political response. It

30:16

was never a policy response. And of course, if

30:18

this government were looking at another five years in

30:20

office, if it had just been returned to office,

30:23

they would end up with a significant political problem

30:25

because it would be exposed as to of making

30:27

little difference quite quickly. But of course, as we

30:29

know, it's basically sort of there, you know, we're

30:31

not going to have anything take off if we do

30:34

have it for 10 to 12 weeks, by which time

30:36

we'll be staring down an election anyway. And just

30:38

one other thing, I mean, let us imagine for a

30:40

moment that the people who are in Calais or

30:42

wherever they are along the north coast of France are

30:45

really studying the government proposals for

30:47

the Rwanda policy. And they've figured

30:49

out that maybe 300 people

30:52

a year are going to go to Rwanda. One percent,

30:54

if they're not going to go to Rwanda, it's a

30:56

tiny percent. Even if it were 10 percent, even if

30:58

it was 10 percent, I've got a 90-10 chance

31:00

of surviving, making it in Britain. I'm still

31:02

going for it. And

31:05

when we went in last August for

31:07

this show, for investigation, that was exactly what people said. Some people

31:09

were aware of it. They were aware of

31:11

it because they hear it from the smugglers

31:14

and they hear it and they chat about it and

31:16

so on. And the smugglers tell them, we had the

31:18

clip of it. Don't worry about it. You'll be fine.

31:20

Nearly everybody will stay. And as you say, John, even

31:22

if it's, you know, it's one percent, but even if

31:24

it is 20 percent, 20 percent, 30 percent, unless you're

31:26

sending everybody or nearly everybody, there

31:28

will be very little discernment effect and it

31:30

simply would not be possible to nearly send

31:33

everybody or get anything close to it. This

31:44

is the news agents. What

31:49

moments in my life have I felt proud to

31:51

be English? There are personal moments. Family

31:55

holiday with my parents in the Lake District, when

31:58

we finally reached the peak of Scarfel

32:00

Pike melting out

32:03

three lions in the crowd at Wembley in 96.

32:09

Being the first person in my family to go to

32:11

university defending people facing the

32:13

death penalty in countries that look up

32:16

to our rule of law and

32:18

moments as Labour's leader meeting

32:20

people in towns villages and

32:23

cities around our country from

32:25

every background and circumstance who

32:27

all share the same sense of

32:30

decency, honour and fairness. It's

32:32

a daily reminder of what the Labour Party

32:35

is and and who it

32:37

serves. From establishing NATO to creating

32:39

the NHS, Labour

32:41

is at its best when

32:43

it has celebrated defended and served the

32:45

values of our country and its people.

32:49

For me this is what real

32:51

patriotism is about, serving

32:54

the country we love. Today

32:57

on St George's Day we

32:59

come together to celebrate our shared history.

33:02

Today is about respect for

33:04

those who've sacrificed so much for us to

33:06

have the freedoms and the rights that we

33:08

enjoy today. Respect for

33:11

those who keep the country going and respect for

33:13

each other. The

33:16

symbol of St George, the St George's

33:18

flag, belongs to every

33:21

person who loves this country and seeks

33:23

to make it better. A

33:26

symbol of pride, celebration, belonging

33:28

and inclusion. So

33:30

on behalf of the Labour Party I

33:33

wish everyone a happy St George's Day. Let

33:36

us be proud of our national

33:38

identity, confident on the world stage

33:41

and sure of our country's future.

33:44

That was Sakhir Stama and

33:47

today is St George's Day

33:49

and I don't think that was so much Labour

33:51

trying to wrap itself in the flag, the

33:53

English flag I should hasten to add, so

33:56

much as saying actually you know what it's

33:58

not just... football fans

34:01

being leery or

34:03

far-right politicians who can be

34:05

proud of being English

34:08

and kind of if patriotism

34:10

means anything it doesn't mean that

34:13

you have to shout very loudly about it

34:15

you can all be quietly

34:17

patriotic can't you? I do think it

34:19

was a bit try hard I'm sorry

34:22

you know the rousing music and

34:24

I'm on holiday in the late district and

34:26

isn't it wonderful I mean like surely

34:29

it's just allowing everyone to sort of

34:31

think about their own identity in their

34:33

own way if they even want to

34:35

pay particular lip service to one day of

34:37

the year I think what I heard

34:39

in that was Kirsten saying I am

34:42

not Jeremy Corbyn I promise you I

34:44

love the national anthem I love England

34:46

I love our country and it's a

34:48

bit like when he talks about defence

34:50

spending don't think I'm not pro-nuclear I

34:52

love nuclear I love defence I found

34:54

it all a bit sort of like...

34:56

It's kind of like one of my LBC callers. Thank

34:59

you very much I'm very proud of you. It probably is

35:01

now you've rumbleed at it. What

35:03

do I normally call them? I love them all by

35:05

the way. I

35:08

don't know I don't need to hear

35:10

our politicians do that honestly. But

35:12

in a way though I mean what Salma does there

35:14

it kind of neatly illustrates the problem that politicians or

35:16

English politicians have with talking about England and Englishness as

35:18

a cultural identity right because he's sort of talking about

35:20

the things that made him proud to be English and

35:23

okay there's the kind of smaller stuff about going on

35:25

holiday in the lake districts and so on but then

35:27

he's talking about big things right about kind of like

35:29

the creation of NATO and the Labour Party sort of

35:31

interaction with that which actually a lot of that stuff

35:34

obviously is eliding and this is always the problem with

35:36

Englishness when people are talking about it is

35:38

the elision between Englishness and Britishness which

35:40

has basically been one of the same

35:42

things since the 19th century which isn't true in

35:44

other parts of the UK which have retained their

35:47

distinction you know Scottishness or Welshness and so on

35:49

so it's sort of hard because England doesn't have

35:51

its own political institutions and even apart from things

35:53

like the England football team its own cultural institutions

35:55

and so that's just hard for people to look

35:57

I'm not this is not a sort of like don't try and be

35:59

English For me it sounded like just one

36:01

Cornetto. I don't want to hear Italian

36:03

apologists do you? I don't like to hear

36:05

American apologists do you? I think you show

36:08

rather than tell. Yeah, okay. But I kind

36:10

of think that there was something to learn

36:12

from America and patriotism and always being next

36:14

to the flag and you fly the flag

36:16

much more than you do in Britain where

36:19

we've kind of got a bit of post-colonial...

36:21

You love people who put patriot in their

36:23

bio, don't you? Yeah, we've got a bit

36:25

of post-colonial guilt I think about being British.

36:27

And so what happens then is

36:30

that certain groups who like to shout loudest

36:32

about it... Yeah, or drape themselves in the

36:34

flag. ...drape themselves in the flag and therefore

36:36

Lee Anderson has put out a video

36:38

today as well where he's kind of saying

36:41

well I bet if you're a guardian reading

36:43

avocado eating vegan or whatever whatever you'll be

36:45

hating me celebrating St George. Shall we hear

36:47

from our very own St George Lee Anderson?

36:50

Look at these here look, flag of St

36:52

George. It's St George's day to day and

36:54

this country of ours has been a gift

36:57

to the world. Look at the

36:59

industrial revolution, culture, arts,

37:02

music, sports, everywhere you look on this

37:04

planet you see some of that. Oh

37:06

by the way, happy birthday

37:08

William Shakespeare. A big happy birthday to the big

37:10

Bill. The big Bill in the sky. Richard Ties

37:12

did it in a different way. He said happy

37:14

St George's day and he's got this lovely flag

37:17

and Henry Morris on Twitter underneath

37:19

him has said why have you messed with the

37:21

flag and made it pink? Are you woke?

37:24

In other countries, to go back to Liam,

37:27

in other countries don't have music or culture

37:29

of course famously. No they don't. And music

37:31

is always renowned around the world. That's typical

37:33

of you, you're just liberal avocados. No I

37:36

hate avocados. Yeah but I think John your

37:38

point is right. Progressives or the liberal

37:40

left in particular are fundamentally uncomfortable talking about

37:42

Englishness. This is not a new phenomenon. That

37:45

has been the case and all well wrote about it for

37:47

God's sake. You know it's been going on for a very

37:49

long time and therefore there is a different history of England

37:51

to be told where everyone's always like England's a really conservative

37:54

country capital c small c there's a very different history of

37:56

England to be told but no one ever tells it because

37:58

the people who would tell that story are

38:00

afraid to do so or feel uncomfortable about doing so. You

38:02

show your pride. We know we have some of

38:04

the best music scenes, right, in the world. You

38:06

know you have some of the best designers in

38:08

the world. You know you have some of the

38:10

best, I was going to say

38:12

food, and actually I will say food. I

38:15

think, you know, British restaurants now are amazing.

38:17

You don't always need to kind of remind

38:19

everyone about that. Well, it's very un-English. I mean, it's

38:21

very un-English to be very showy. The thing I think most

38:23

of when I hear from Anderson actually is that most people,

38:25

one of the best things about Britain or England or whatever

38:28

is that actually it is a very self-effacing country,

38:30

right? It is a country that doesn't like to

38:32

big itself ask for all of that. That's what

38:34

I'm saying. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. So

38:36

can't that self-effacement be part of our national character? And

38:38

it is profoundly so. I mean, you do remember we

38:40

used to have like those books that were

38:42

like called Britain's Shittest Town. Yeah, and people

38:44

loved that stuff. And people loved it and it

38:47

was funny. It is funny. And actually, if my

38:49

town was in the Shittest Town, you know, I

38:51

came from Sheffield, which is an amazing city, but

38:53

there are bits of it that we happily recognise

38:55

as a bit shit. And yet that all kind

38:57

of changed with the sort of populist narrative that

39:00

you had to remember when our cabinet had to

39:02

have like bigger and bigger flags behind

39:04

them. Why do we need that? I think you have to

39:06

reclaim it. I think you

39:08

have to reclaim it. But the only

39:10

true patriot is the one who drapes

39:12

himself in the flag. Whereas Union Jack

39:14

or George Pufflings and anyone else is

39:16

somehow kind of some ghastly internationalist who

39:18

loves nowhere better than Britain. Well, the

39:21

thing is, is that we don't like

39:23

as a sort of generally speaking terms

39:25

of national character, we don't like earnestness,

39:27

right? The whole if there is one

39:29

thing, generally, I think that is kind

39:31

of distinctive about little Britain, right, there

39:33

is a sense of humour, which is

39:35

basically, you know, enjoys taking the piss

39:37

out of others and ourselves. And that is the

39:39

one thing that many of these people, including Anderson,

39:42

including like the Daily Mail, which sets itself up

39:44

as a kind of arbiter. And so I mean,

39:46

John King exactly.

39:48

John King always says that this is a

39:50

paper which claims to be this kind

39:52

of sort of essence of Britishness, and

39:54

you will not find a single gag,

39:57

a single joke inside its MO, its

39:59

fundamental reflexes. Everything is shit, and everybody

40:01

who doesn't like anything we like is also

40:03

shit. And that is a deeply un-English and

40:05

un-British thing. The polling, by the

40:07

way, some polling out from our friends and more in

40:10

common, saying, which of the following in your view do

40:12

you think best defines Englishness? What do you think the

40:14

top three were? Tea. Drinking

40:16

teas too. Yorkshire pudding.

40:18

Yorkshire pudding, not on the list, Jon. No! No!

40:22

Humour? No. No,

40:24

very humourless people on this list. Irony. No.

40:28

Hardly newer. Do you know, I have to say, that polling could have

40:30

gone either way because we know it's also... The

40:33

England football team. Football is... is six.

40:35

Football one. Oh. Mazed. You

40:38

two haven't said this with your frequent trips to the palace. And

40:40

the raw battle. The monarchy. Yeah, exactly. And

40:42

then third, the weather. The Royal Agents. And

40:44

then fourth, going to the pub. Yeah. So

40:47

there you go. Look, that polling, to be frank, could

40:49

have gone either way because it is also, as we

40:51

know, the presidential elections in North Macedonia. And I thought

40:53

you just whipped out your phone to tell us the

40:55

latest results there. What, in North Macedonia? Yeah. I'm

40:58

following it closely overnight, people. And North Macedonian

41:00

listeners will be... That's right, Mr Tom. He's

41:02

very, very invested in this story. Yeah, absolutely.

41:04

And I know that, look... How much can

41:06

he get? Tom just said to us, our

41:08

editor, could you do two minutes on this?

41:11

Well, on the present... North Macedonian presidential

41:13

election. No, on the whole business of

41:15

George's Day. Well, we'd certainly

41:17

like to wish our... of Senagud wishes to

41:19

Steve O. Pendrogovsky and Gordana Silanzowska, who are

41:21

the two leading candidates for the presidential election.

41:24

And of course, we should say that the

41:26

full list of candidates will be available on

41:28

Wikipedia. Oh no, we're... Oh no, we're... Bye

41:31

bye, see you tomorrow. Bye. Bye. The

41:34

News Agents, with Emily Maiklis, John

41:36

Sopor and Lewis Goodall.