0:02

This is a Global Player

0:04

original podcast. At quarter past

0:06

ten last night I received a message which

0:10

I passed on straight away to

0:12

our work news agents WhatsApp group and

0:14

I had to say that I didn't

0:17

know how credible the source was but

0:19

that they were hearing strong rumours

0:22

that Rishi Sunak was going to

0:24

call a general election tomorrow, i.e.

0:26

today. We are no

0:28

further on knowing whether or not

0:30

he will. We're recording at half

0:32

past one but we're taking you

0:34

behind the curtain in this episode.

0:37

Westminster is in overdrive about an

0:39

election which may or may not

0:41

happen. On today's show and it

0:44

could be the first of today's shows, we're

0:46

going to be taking you through what we

0:48

know, what we don't, what might happen next.

0:50

Welcome to the news agents. The

0:55

news agents. It's Emily.

0:57

It's Lewis. And we're delighted to say

0:59

that it's John's birthday and John is

1:01

out of the country which is doubly

1:04

ironic because John never ever wants to

1:06

miss a big moment. So he's actually

1:08

taken his mic with him. Yeah,

1:10

well it's important on this potentially

1:12

absolutely agenda setting, electric political

1:14

day in Westminster, it's important that one-third of

1:16

the news agents is currently in Prague. So

1:19

that's all good, that's all worked well. Look,

1:21

as Emily said, it's been a really, really

1:23

weird kind of 12, 18

1:25

hours or so and particularly in Westminster. I

1:28

can't quite remember a day like it and

1:30

it's a really interesting example of how Twitter

1:33

in particular comes into its own. No one's

1:35

entirely sure where these rumours have come from

1:37

and when Emily said last night, oh

1:39

she's heard this thing about soon, I have to say, I

1:42

mean I was really sceptile. I've always thought it's going

1:44

to be the winter anyway but I thought this

1:46

week of all weeks when Paula Venels is at

1:48

the Post Office inquiry today, when bad

1:50

immigration numbers are coming out on Thursday, so day

1:52

one or day two of your campaign is

1:55

talking about net migration and yet I

1:57

woke up this morning, my phone is

1:59

full of... Media people some political people

2:01

getting in touch saying how what have you heard?

2:03

What have you heard about this election? Downing Street

2:05

are not ruling it out and There

2:09

is a very very simple way to scotch election rumors

2:11

and this has happened time and time again in recent

2:13

weeks and months But usually down the street have been

2:15

quick ish to neutralize and to

2:17

nip in the bud Crucially this morning

2:19

that has not happened at any point

2:21

and it has just pulled petrol on

2:23

the fire I was with a

2:25

senior member of the government on

2:27

Monday and I said Look,

2:30

we are now getting to the point where it's

2:32

not going to be June Is it and

2:35

they said well, you know, it's almost not going to be

2:37

July and I went almost And

2:39

I said is it going to be just you know,

2:41

we always play this game and I said is it

2:44

gonna be December I've got money on December I think

2:46

it's a sort of auspicious month for the Tories

2:48

because of 2019 and Boris Johnson and

2:50

then this person said We're very

2:53

conscious of not wanting to

2:55

look to 1997

2:58

and I said I don't understand what that means And

3:00

they said I bet they are well

3:02

Yes, obviously it was the year that Blair

3:04

came to power with a huge majority But

3:07

what they actually meant by that was because

3:09

labor hadn't won in 92 five years earlier

3:12

There was an extra big majority

3:15

in 97 It was almost like it

3:17

had been sort of back-ended so more

3:19

and more people had then gone

3:21

for labor So the majority was even bigger and

3:24

I think there was a feeling that I was

3:26

getting from within government But if they left it

3:28

too late if they push it to December to

3:30

January Then they

3:32

might be making things even harder for

3:34

themselves. So the few Ministers

3:37

secretaries of state who might still sort

3:39

of be thinking of saving their own

3:41

seats felt that those were in jeopardy

3:43

Now you can just say this is

3:45

all nonsense, you know It doesn't really make any difference

3:47

whether it's July or October or

3:49

November or December. We're probably not going to

3:51

see massive differences This is the stuff the

3:54

weeds that we get into which we think

3:56

are a wonder flight or an immigration number

3:58

or a tax cut or

4:00

an inflation figure will alter. For the

4:03

wider country, it just may not make

4:05

any difference at all. So we

4:07

should say what the options potentially are here and

4:09

what we're hearing. Obviously one option is that Downing

4:11

Street has been completely politically incompetent and

4:14

have not scoped the rumours when they should have done, like

4:16

Gordon Brown in 2007, and they're leading

4:18

all of the media up to the hill and nothing

4:21

happens. And in the end, you

4:23

basically get a week of media stories, which is the

4:25

classic narrative by now, which is Rishi Sunak is bad

4:27

at politics. We cannot rule that out because there are

4:29

people I think in Downing Street who are not brilliant

4:31

at politics. The other options are he

4:33

announces the election, which widely is being rumoured, would

4:36

be on July the 4th. There's another

4:38

rumour going around saying it could be a cabinet reshuffle, although

4:40

I think the timing of this and the orchestration of it

4:42

would be really weird for a reshuffle. Oh, you just say,

4:44

you just say, it was a reshuffle. Well, you just bring

4:46

the mini- And why? There's no particular reason to do it.

4:48

We haven't got any more ex-Prime Ministers that are going to

4:50

be back in the cabinet, have we? Wow,

4:53

I like that. Never say never. All

4:55

is forgiven or that he announces

4:57

the election date, but it's not for July,

4:59

it's in the autumn. Now, again,

5:01

this feels like this could be the right option for

5:03

me or this could happen. But on the other hand,

5:05

it's also difficult to exactly see what the political utility

5:08

is for Downing Street because the one thing,

5:10

one of the only cards they have is

5:12

keeping everybody guessing, including the opposition, about when

5:14

the election is. If you flag it far

5:17

in advance, then what you basically hand to

5:19

the opposition is a calendar. You basically start

5:21

the longest election campaign in British political history

5:23

and you offer the opposition a calendar to

5:26

plan all of their advertising, all of their

5:29

campaigning, exactly their different sort of operations

5:31

up to and including the election date.

5:33

It's all really weird. So

5:35

what do we know? We know

5:38

that Rishi Sunak goes to see

5:40

the King on a Wednesday. We

5:42

know that David Cameron is, we

5:44

understand, flying home from whatever- Changing

5:46

his power plant and the defence sector as well, Grand

5:48

Shafts. So

5:50

it sounds unlikely that this is a reshuffle because

5:53

I can't see either of those two being moved

5:55

at the moment. You don't call a cabinet before

5:57

a reshuffle. You don't bring them all around

5:59

Alan Sugarstar. I think I'm sorry, half of

6:01

you are fine. Yeah, exactly. You're out mate.

6:03

You had the cabinet after you've done the

6:05

reshuffles. Thanks, that's for going back. We

6:07

do know that there's a lot of speculation

6:10

about the euros and the timing there. Which

6:12

is, I mean technically they could, they

6:15

could still say today that it would be

6:17

a June election, although that doesn't tally with

6:19

the second half of the year. You could

6:21

have one on the 28th of June. The latter fourth is

6:23

just in the second half of the year. It's just in the

6:25

second half of the year, and it's just

6:27

when England has hopefully made it through

6:30

the group stages, but before we might

6:32

be out of the tournament completely. I

6:34

mean honestly generally I think the football

6:36

thing is not an inconsiderable thing to

6:38

actually not do in July, in a sense that

6:41

the country's not going to be watching. The country's

6:43

going to be watching the football, right? And if you're

6:45

the governing party, it's kind of fine if you're the

6:47

governing party, and you are way ahead. And actually you're

6:49

just relying on no one to really change their mind

6:51

and just get to polling day as quickly as possible.

6:54

But if you're trying to make an argument where

6:56

you change people's minds, and the country

6:58

is focusing on three lines, or in

7:00

Scotland or wherever it happens to be, that's actually a

7:02

problem. That's actually a big problem. I actually can't realise

7:04

roughing my brains earlier to think of an election campaign

7:07

which coincided with a major international football. And it would,

7:09

yeah, it wouldn't be a general election, it would be

7:11

Brexit 2016 where I believe England would be eaten by

7:13

Iceland. You see I would say, I take what you

7:15

said and I'm going to turn it on its head,

7:17

which is that if you think as the governing party

7:20

you're not going to win this, then

7:22

actually all you're doing is trying to make more people stay

7:24

at home. If you think that

7:26

you could cut the Labour lead by getting

7:28

people to not engage with it as much

7:30

during the football tournament, you might do that.

7:32

Well Harold Wilson blamed the 1970 election loss

7:34

on England unexpectedly going out in the World

7:36

Cup of 1920. It's quite easy to find

7:38

things to blame your losses on, let's be

7:40

honest. And

7:44

what's been especially weird about today, just in

7:46

terms of the political choreography of it, usually

7:49

if there's a snap election, people might remember

7:51

Theresa May in 2017 just coming out of

7:53

Downing Street with a podium, surprising everybody. It

7:55

just happens first thing in the morning. Obviously the weird

7:57

thing about this is that it's being allowed to build...

8:00

You're such a slow

8:02

build up, absolutely painful.

8:06

And on a Wednesday in particular, because of

8:08

course Wednesday is PMQs. And so if there

8:10

is a rumour around and Downing Street staff

8:12

have gone to ground, which they've done all

8:14

morning, the only person who is visible from

8:17

Downing Street on a Wednesday in parliament is

8:19

the Prime Minister himself. And indeed absolutely

8:21

inevitably he was asked about these July

8:23

election rumours by Stephen Flynn, the leader

8:25

of the SNP. Speculation is rife, so

8:28

I think the public deserve a clear

8:30

answer to a simple question. Does

8:32

the Prime Minister intend to call a

8:34

summer general election? Or is he fear?

8:37

Aye. Mr Speaker, as I have said repeatedly

8:39

to him, there is the Speaker, spoiler alert,

8:41

there is

8:53

going to be a general election in the second half of

8:55

this year. And at that

8:57

moment the British people will in fact

8:59

see the truth about the Omicogen now.

9:51

No, there isn't going to be an election now. You know, RIP to

9:54

fix term parliament sags. But

9:56

one of the reasons, and it really I would say

9:58

is as simple as this, that. Westminster,

10:00

the sort of characters of Westminster, the political

10:02

journalists of Westminster, ourselves included, the broadcasters, MPs,

10:04

parliamentary staff and so on, get so fixated

10:07

with this question, it's of course the political

10:09

question, but again, that whole lifting behind the

10:11

curtain thing, genuinely it is as stupid and

10:13

as simple as people want to know when

10:15

to book their holidays. People who

10:17

are in the kind of wider

10:19

Westminster village are obsessed with this

10:21

question and it starts batting around

10:24

WhatsApp groups and everything incredibly quickly

10:26

because it has an unusually big

10:28

impact on the lives of the kind of

10:30

wider Westminster village. I remember running to an MP

10:32

and staff in Westminster the other day and they

10:34

were saying, honestly there are people in there right

10:36

now, they're sort of run ragged, just constantly speculating

10:38

and wondering when this state is going to be.

10:40

And that is why if Downing

10:43

Street has led everyone up the hill here, like

10:45

the grand old Duke of York, and he's going

10:47

to lead everybody down again, there will

10:49

just be so much ire and it is as petty

10:51

as this, ire from political journalists

10:53

who have glimpsed the prospect of actually having

10:55

certainty in their lives and actually having a

10:57

calendar that they can see rather than just

10:59

sort of constantly batting it back and forth between

11:01

them all year. Meanwhile, we should point

11:03

out there is actually quite a lot of

11:06

real news, tangible actual news going on in

11:08

the world. Paula Venels is before the post

11:10

office inquiry today and there'll be plenty of

11:12

that I think to come, but we are

11:15

looking at the decision

11:17

by Spain, by Norway and Ireland

11:19

to recognise the Palestinian state. We're

11:21

going to be talking to the

11:24

Palestinian High Commissioner to the UK

11:26

in a moment about what this

11:28

means and about what pressure it

11:31

may in turn put on our

11:33

own government to come to its

11:35

own conclusion about this. That's all to come.

11:46

This is the news agents.

11:51

Well, joining us now is Hassan Zumlot. He's

11:53

the Palestinian High Commissioner to the UK

11:56

and the news that we've had this morning,

12:00

in Spain have now recognized Palestine, the

12:02

first, I think, EU member states who

12:04

have done that whilst being member states.

12:07

What does this say to you? It

12:10

says that we have historic momentum,

12:12

that certain countries and leaders in

12:14

Europe have shown leadership and statesmanship

12:17

to really provide all of us a different

12:20

path forward out of this carnage, out of

12:22

this darkness. They provided light

12:24

today, that there is hope, that there

12:26

is tomorrow, that they are committing to

12:29

international legality and international legitimacy, and they

12:31

are not giving anybody a gift or

12:33

a favor. The Irish

12:35

Prime Minister was rather very clear,

12:38

this is an inalienable right of

12:40

the Palestinian people. This is

12:42

a recognition of their distinct national identity

12:44

and their people's health and nation health,

12:46

and this is long overdue. However, to

12:49

come at this point in time, give

12:51

millions of people, including people

12:54

in Europe and worldwide, hope

12:56

for a different future. So this is

12:58

historic, and not only it's a historic

13:00

day, it's a historic week, because

13:02

it followed from the ICC,

13:05

Prosecutor General, only two days

13:07

ago, taking a first step

13:09

towards holding Israel accountable to

13:11

its many war crimes over

13:13

many decades. Yeah, I want to come

13:15

onto the ICC in a moment, but

13:18

just on this question of the recognition

13:20

of a Palestinian state, statehood, you've known

13:22

this was coming from those three countries.

13:25

Presumably you have also been having conversations

13:27

with the UK government. What response are

13:30

you getting there? Still the

13:32

same, same. We have heard something

13:34

rather new a couple of months

13:36

ago from Foreign Secretary Lord

13:39

Cameron, who did announce that

13:41

Britain is considering recognizing the

13:43

state of Palestine before a final

13:45

agreement has been reached. And that statement

13:47

did break a taboo and established a

13:49

new logic that the UK would recognize

13:51

as a contribution to a peace process,

13:53

not an outcome of it. And therefore

13:56

Lord Cameron removed the Israeli veto of

13:58

our Palestinian state. statehood which the UK

14:00

should have done long time ago. It's

14:02

long overdue. But the UK is not

14:04

going to join Norway and Ireland and

14:06

Spain in this same state of recognition,

14:08

right? I mean, that's pretty clear. Yeah.

14:10

However, the UK is lagging behind. It

14:12

has been lagging behind on this issue

14:14

for a long time. We have given

14:16

the UK many opportunities, including recently at

14:18

the UN in the Security Council and

14:20

in the General Assembly. And regrettably, the

14:22

UK has so far picked the wrong

14:25

choice. What's your message now to

14:27

the UK government on this? It's their time,

14:29

given the historic responsibility of the United

14:31

Kingdom, given the Balfour Declaration 107

14:34

years ago, that colonial arrogance moment

14:36

that has contributed to the suffering

14:38

of my people for over a

14:40

century. And given the

14:42

role of the UK as a

14:44

founder of the rules-based international order,

14:46

given the history and given the

14:48

role the UK could play, the

14:50

best relationship that closes to Washington,

14:52

to Brussels, to the region and

14:54

worldwide, I think the UK is

14:56

absolutely expected to play a leadership

14:58

role and to show everybody that

15:00

when they say to states they mean it,

15:03

this is not lip service, this is not

15:05

double face, this is real.

15:07

And this is the moment to give

15:09

the people of Palestine hope, to give

15:11

Israel a very clear message that business

15:14

is business, we mean it, we are

15:16

doing the work. And should the UK

15:18

lag behind, it would be a very

15:20

bad message at a very bad moment.

15:23

Except you can see the response

15:25

that we've had already this morning.

15:27

Senior Hamas leaders are welcoming the

15:29

decisions and Israel's foreign minister has said

15:31

that Ireland and Norway are

15:33

sending a message today that terrorism pays,

15:36

that what happened on October the 7th

15:39

has led to this moment and

15:41

the message that it sends internationally

15:43

is that terrorism pays. That's

15:45

the very wrong question, Emily, and I

15:47

really refuse it wholeheartedly. This process of

15:50

recognition has been growing for years, years

15:53

with the same countries and with other countries. It

15:55

should have happened long, long ago, at least in

15:57

1999, five years after. are

16:00

the signing of the Oslo Accords, the

16:02

European countries, the US, were committing to

16:04

recognize the state of Palestine as early

16:06

as 1999. They have lagged behind and

16:08

they have, by hesitating to

16:12

take the right decision, they have led

16:14

us to where we are today, to

16:16

this carnage and madness, mass murder, mass

16:19

destruction. And therefore, this has nothing to

16:21

do with only the last seven months.

16:23

This has to do with a hundred

16:25

years old process that the international community

16:27

did not really invest the right political

16:30

capital. Today we see countries like

16:32

Ireland, Spain and of course Norway

16:34

investing in the future. And therefore,

16:37

let us not just focus on

16:39

Israeli talking points. This is about

16:41

the people of Palestine and this

16:44

is about their absolute, inalienable right

16:47

to self-determination. And this is not

16:49

the business of Netanyahu or

16:51

the business of any country for that matter.

16:53

Every country that has not done so is

16:56

in the red. Yeah. Netanyahu is

16:58

making it his business nonetheless. Israel

17:00

has ordered its ambassadors back from

17:02

all three countries. Do you

17:04

recognize by that, that

17:06

essentially diplomatic relationships will

17:09

end with Israel for those three

17:11

countries or any other

17:13

countries that then recognize the Palestinian

17:16

state? That's the business of these countries.

17:18

But all these countries who have been saying for

17:20

all these decades that they support a two state

17:22

solution and they haven't recognized the

17:25

two states, they didn't really mean it. Now

17:27

these countries who have done so today are

17:29

among the countries who really mean

17:31

two state solution. And therefore, if this

17:34

is their policy to create a state of Palestine

17:36

on the 1967 borders with each

17:38

Jerusalem as its capital and to resolve

17:40

the issue of refugees in accordance with

17:42

international law, if this is the policy,

17:45

then it is Netanyahu that needs to

17:47

be isolated and punished. If Israel does

17:49

not accept the international consensus, then there

17:52

will have to be consequences. It should

17:54

not be Dublin or Oslo or

17:56

Madrid for that matter to be diplomatically

17:59

punished by Netanyahu. It should be

18:01

Netanyahu that should feel the consequences

18:03

of his rejection of the international

18:05

consensus and of his rejection of

18:07

the very idea of people's righteous

18:09

demand for self-determination and statehood and

18:12

sovereignty. And therefore, this business has

18:14

gone on for a long time,

18:16

Emily, to let Israel have a

18:18

veto power over something that has

18:20

to do with our natural death

18:22

rights. Today, these countries are saying

18:24

no longer Israel has the leverage

18:27

or the right to

18:29

say no or to have a

18:31

veto power over the Palestinian people's

18:33

right to self-determination. That's the key

18:35

message, and this is long overdue.

18:38

I promised that we would talk about the International

18:40

Criminal Court. The prosecutor general

18:43

submitted an application, and

18:45

the ICC now has three months to consider

18:47

its outcome. Do you

18:49

understand that the UK

18:51

government will abide by what the

18:53

ICC has said this week? What

18:56

is your understanding of that? It

18:58

must. I mean, the UK

19:00

is a founding member of the international

19:02

judicial system, the ICJ and the ICC.

19:06

The UK prides itself with being

19:08

a founding member of the whole

19:10

international system after the horrors of

19:12

the Second World War. The first

19:14

general assembly of the United Nations

19:16

was convened here in London, not

19:18

anywhere else. The first UN Secretary

19:20

General was British. And therefore, if

19:23

you pride yourself with being a

19:25

founding member, you have got to

19:27

stick by the rules, and the

19:29

rules are very simple and straightforward.

19:31

The independence of the global courts,

19:33

especially the ICC and the ICJ,

19:35

you do not meddle or intervene

19:38

in their business, and we expect

19:40

the UK to come out clearly

19:42

saying that we respect the independence

19:44

of these courts. And you haven't

19:46

heard that yet? No, no. We

19:48

have heard some rather counterproductive, unhelpful,

19:51

unhelpful statements from some

19:53

very senior UK politicians.

19:56

Salman Rushdie has said if

19:58

there was a Palestinian state... It

20:00

would be run by Hamas and that would

20:02

make it a Taliban. Like state

20:04

a client state of

20:06

Iran he. Is not

20:09

alone in his fears

20:11

that this. Would be a gift

20:13

right now to hammer. Or

20:15

the know, some members did. One who's

20:18

who's middling. You know on a first.

20:20

Palestine is no one by the people

20:22

of Palestine that have national institutions that

20:24

have legitimate recognized by the world. The

20:27

Palestine Liberation Organization the Piano represents the

20:29

Palestinians intuit inside and outside. We have

20:31

just formed a new government and the

20:34

State of Palestine is recognized by the

20:36

absolute vast majority of the world except

20:38

very few countries including the Us and

20:41

the Uk. And to the you've heard

20:43

from three countries european countries to motor.

20:45

You'll hear from much more who ever left

20:47

the did not recognize the State of Palestine.

20:50

The State of Palestine belongs to the People

20:52

of Palestine, and the People of Palestine have

20:54

that legitimate representation and. I understand that

20:56

as a theory. As an ideology. but

20:58

I'm just asking. I guess whether

21:00

it's times with your own see

21:02

is now that a Palestinian state.

21:05

Would. In body, some us at this

21:07

point does that. Why you. It

21:10

doesn't. It embodies peace. This is about

21:12

our rights and these lights would have

21:14

been fulfilled long before from us was

21:16

created. Hamas has not created this conflict.

21:19

Hummus is an outcome of this conflict

21:21

and all other political success. What we

21:23

need is to resolve this in accordance

21:25

with the Palestinian people. Rights, Legitimate rights,

21:28

birthright solace. Not complete and confuse the

21:30

composition. This isn't about from As or

21:32

any other political such and this is

21:34

about a beep of a beep. I'm

21:36

sorry. And four hundred years this is

21:39

about rights. The right to self determination

21:41

that I to return to properties and homes

21:43

on farms and businesses. The right to live

21:45

equal under the law until I to justice

21:48

and accountability. This isn't about Saxons as and

21:50

some lot. Thank you very much. Hit on

21:52

this morning. Thank you. Thank. You. Said.

21:55

Clearly as a direct mrs that from

21:57

a High commissioner to the Uk, to

22:00

recognize exactly what the

22:02

ICC is saying and to

22:04

stand by the rule of law. And I

22:06

was talking to a former minister this

22:08

morning and I said, we still haven't had a

22:10

clear message from the UK. We've

22:13

had sort of Rishi Sunak talking about the

22:15

ICC ruling judgment and saying it was very

22:17

inconvenient or it's a distraction or the rest

22:19

of it. But we have had

22:22

a history with this government of

22:24

not particularly standing by the rule of

22:26

law, whether it's prorogation, whether it's questions

22:28

about us leaving the ECHR. So I

22:30

guess the wider question, I mean, I think

22:32

we can safely say that the UK will

22:35

not join other countries like Norway

22:37

and Ireland in recognizing a Palestinian state

22:39

at this point. But more immediately,

22:41

what are they going to do about this ICC

22:43

ruling? I think it is deeply, if it

22:45

does happen, and it is still a big

22:47

if, but if they actually issue an arrest

22:50

warrant for Netanyahu and Galant, I

22:52

think it's a massive problem for the British government. And I

22:54

think going back to what we were talking about at the

22:56

start of the show, it is entirely

22:58

easy to see if it happens during an election

23:00

campaign, how it becomes a political issue in that

23:02

election campaign, because Lamy and Labour

23:04

have sounded a little more muted about it, difficult

23:06

for them in terms of their electoral coalition. And

23:09

the government will have to say, okay, at that point, they'll

23:11

effectively be a caretaker government, but they'll have to say what

23:13

their position is. I think you're right. I

23:16

mean, look, if the ICC of which we're

23:18

a member, we're a signatory to the convention,

23:21

they issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu.

23:24

What does the British government do in terms of

23:26

its relationship with the Netanyahu government? It is such

23:28

a pointed question. It puts the British government on

23:30

the spot because what the ICC is then saying

23:32

is that this guy is a war criminal or

23:35

anything wants to arrest him. Are we going to

23:37

maintain our relationship as it has had

23:39

it has existed up to this point? Will we continue to export

23:41

arms? Okay, we don't export many. And it's not just a question

23:44

for the British government, by the way. The

23:46

German government, for example, I was interviewing the ambassador

23:48

on LBC on Sunday asking him the question about

23:50

German arms exports. Very, very awkward for him. But

23:52

also awkward for them. Are we credible about

23:54

our belief in international institutions? We

23:57

are a main fundamental signatory at

23:59

the ICC. We're not buying by it.

24:01

Who is? You can't say it's just inconvenient or

24:03

a distraction. That's up to them, and either their

24:05

warrants mean something or they don't. Well,

24:12

the news from Spain, from Ireland

24:15

and Norway, to recognise a Palestinian

24:17

state, came to us

24:19

this morning. Clearly, it was known

24:22

by many other of the international

24:24

mediators, but the Israeli government has

24:26

also chosen today to

24:28

announce that they are releasing a

24:30

video which shows the current state

24:32

of some of the female

24:35

hostages in Hamas-held

24:37

Gaza. We understand that

24:39

the women in the video have

24:41

been the victims of sexual violence,

24:43

and it is believed that some of

24:46

those being held are

24:48

now pregnant, are now weeks

24:50

away, perhaps, from giving birth

24:52

to their captors' children. We're

24:55

going to speak to Amit Levy.

24:57

His sister, Naamah, who's just 19

24:59

years old, was taken hostage

25:02

in October at the

25:04

time of the Hamas attack. Amit,

25:06

thank you for coming in. And your

25:08

t-shirt tells the story of Naamah, your

25:11

sister. Just tell us about

25:13

Naamah. So

25:15

Naamah is 19 years old. I'm

25:18

21, so there's less than two years

25:20

between us. And

25:23

she's the kindest,

25:25

purest person I know. I

25:27

think you can see it in her eyes when

25:29

you look at the pictures. She

25:33

was an outstanding athlete in middle

25:35

school and high school. She

25:38

was a great triathlete, like my father

25:40

and my grandfather. It

25:42

was in the family. And

25:46

I really hope that from

25:48

the sports and from everything

25:50

she went through, she got some

25:53

amazing mental strength. Because

25:55

she was taken hostage back

25:57

in October. Yeah, so she

25:59

was... taken on October 7th morning

26:02

with her friends from the bomb shelter in

26:05

Aja Loz. And

26:08

you can see in the footage that

26:10

she's bleeding and she's injured and she's

26:12

terrified. But I

26:14

feel that also I

26:17

can feel her strong energy

26:19

and her

26:21

faith and I hope that she still has faith

26:23

after 230 days in this hell. Have

26:27

you heard anything from her or of her? We

26:31

heard a pretty long

26:33

time ago, around the 50th day. She

26:35

met a few hostages that were released

26:37

just a few hours before they were

26:39

released. They

26:41

spoke to my parents and they told them that

26:43

they just saw her for a few hours so

26:46

they didn't get to know her too much. But they

26:49

told them that she's injured and

26:52

that her leg's condition doesn't look the

26:54

best. And that was so

26:57

long ago, I mean about

26:59

170-180 days passed since then. We

27:04

still believe that she's alive, we're still

27:06

very hopeful, but we

27:08

know that every day that passes by

27:10

she might be going through

27:13

torture that we can't even imagine and

27:15

that she might be killed every moment.

27:17

So that's why we keep

27:20

emphasizing this sense of urgency. Because

27:23

I imagine every day, every

27:25

hour, I imagine her coming

27:29

back to us and hugging her

27:31

and I just won't

27:33

be able to live without

27:36

her back. She's in the video

27:38

that has been released today. You

27:40

talk about the torture that she's going through every

27:42

day. We have heard

27:45

of the horrendous sexual violence that

27:47

is being inflicted on many women,

27:49

both during the attack in October

27:52

and subsequently. You don't know

27:54

how her condition is, whether she has been affected.

27:56

We don't know. To stay sane,

27:59

you know. I speak about it with

28:01

my mother, for example, a lot, because it's

28:04

things that we can't talk

28:07

about, we can't think about without

28:09

just falling into bed. So me and my

28:12

mom, we keep on telling each other, selling

28:15

ourselves a story about her being all

28:17

right, and no one touched her, and

28:19

no one did anything bad to her.

28:22

But we know inside

28:25

that there is a big chance that she has

28:27

been offended, her

28:30

and some of the other young girls there, and

28:32

we know what a huge risk they're in, again,

28:35

every day for 230 days. So

28:39

to stay sane, we keep on

28:41

telling ourselves that nothing that

28:43

bad happened, but

28:46

we're obviously so scared

28:48

every day, and yeah. Who

28:53

is your message really to now

28:55

to get her released? I mean,

28:58

my main message is to the leaders of

29:01

the world, obviously,

29:04

to, I mean, I

29:06

don't think I have any influence on

29:08

the Hamas leaders, they're just terrorists,

29:10

but on my government, I

29:13

think my government needs to do everything it can. The

29:19

Israeli government's responsibility after almost

29:21

eight months to bring Nama

29:23

and all our loved ones home. Do

29:25

you think they're listening to the families? I

29:28

think they are, and

29:30

I think the circumstances are obviously

29:33

very tough because it is a democratic

29:35

state trying to negotiate

29:38

a deal with

29:40

an organization of terrorists that murdered

29:43

and raped and kidnapped so

29:45

many young and old civilians. I

29:48

think they're listening. I

29:50

think not the Israeli government and

29:52

not any other government, even

29:55

myself or my family, I feel like nobody is

29:58

doing enough until they're back. And

30:01

also, obviously, not only the Israeli

30:03

government, I think we're hearing a

30:05

young delegation in the United Kingdom

30:08

to speak to British

30:10

politicians and

30:12

all over the world, all

30:15

the Western free countries in the United

30:17

States and Germany. Are you hearing

30:19

what you need to from around the world? We

30:22

are hearing what we need to. I just

30:24

really hope that in the

30:26

rooms where decisions are made and where

30:29

things need to be pushed and where

30:32

the mediators and Hamas need to be pressured

30:34

to make a deal, to go for a

30:37

deal, I really hope that their

30:39

things are going

30:43

to start being on the right track

30:45

because now it seems pretty far away

30:47

and we already spoke about how frightening

30:49

it is that she would have to

30:51

stay there more. I

30:53

mean, you're not a politician. You've been thrust

30:55

into the limelight that you never sought

30:58

because of your sister, because

31:00

of a terrorist attack. When

31:03

you hear countries like

31:05

Norway and Ireland and Spain

31:08

coming out and saying today, as

31:10

they have done, that they want

31:12

to now recognize statehood for Palestine,

31:15

does that sound to you like

31:17

a positive move that resets the

31:20

conversation or does it sound

31:22

like a move that is recognizing

31:24

Hamas? I'm just curious to see

31:27

how you respond to that. Like

31:30

you said, I'm not a politician. To me personally,

31:33

hearing this, I don't know the details, but I

31:35

don't know if there's any mention

31:38

of the hostages in these

31:41

statements. And

31:43

I obviously, I

31:45

think me and I can speak

31:47

for all or most of

31:50

the hostage families and the Israeli civilians.

31:53

We all want peace. We

31:55

want the hostages back. We

31:58

don't want any uninitiated. involved civilian

32:01

in Gaza being harmed in any way. It

32:04

breaks my heart as well to see a child

32:06

getting hurt in Gaza. And

32:10

of course, if a Palestinian state won't be

32:13

a terror state, one day I

32:15

think that is probably a good solution.

32:17

But right now, offering a

32:19

solution like this without mentioning

32:21

the hostages, without mentioning the fact that

32:24

those who are pushing for the Palestinian state

32:27

are the ones who murdered and

32:30

raped and kidnapped civilians,

32:34

to me doesn't sound like

32:36

the right timing and the

32:39

right thing to talk about right now.

32:41

For a long-term solution, I think that I

32:43

believe peace is the only option. Amit,

32:46

thank you for coming and talking to us. Thoughts with

32:48

your family in the armour. This

33:00

is The News Agents. We

33:06

are both going and coming back. You're

33:08

going off to do the podcast show

33:10

now? Yes, yes, that's right. I'm very,

33:12

very inconveniently scheduled, unfortunately. I'm

33:14

staying by the cooker with all the

33:16

burners on. Oh, you're going to make

33:18

me some dinner? Stirring pots, election pots

33:20

to see what actually comes out of

33:23

the cabinet. You would love it to be a girl in

33:25

an election, wouldn't you? Yes, I would. Yes, I would. And

33:27

we've got a cabinet meeting at four o'clock. Just

33:30

as we've been speaking, there's been a lobby questions which

33:32

has gone on for ages. A colleague of mine has

33:34

texted me to say that they've poured even more petrol

33:36

on it because number 10 spokesman

33:39

says they can either rule in nor rule out a

33:41

July election. Yeah, I love that. Which in Westminster speak

33:43

is... Well, you can't keep ruling things out and then

33:45

not rule things out. Well, quite so. OK, we're going

33:47

to go so that you can listen to this sooner

33:49

rather than later. Bye for now. Bye-bye.

33:54

The News Agents with Emily Maichlis,

33:56

John Sopor and Lewis Goodall. Thank

33:59

you. you