For decades, best-selling author Margaret Wheatley was known for leading change initiatives and developing organizations and strategies that she thought could change the world.

Today, she's preparing leaders, change agents, and activists to deal with the fall-out of eventual civilization collapse. (Yes, collapse.) Whoa.

So, what changed? And, if it's true, what can we do about it?

In this deeply philosophical conversation with host Dave Ursillo (DaveUrsillo.com), Margaret shares how her studies in Eastern spirituality and patterns of civilization collapse led her to change her life's work, how the answer to despair and dread about the state of our world is not to give up on trying, and how to escape the "hope-fear cycle" that leads so many caring people alternating between avoidance and doom spirals.

Since 1966, Margaret Wheatley has worked globally as a speaker, teacher, community worker, consultant, advisor, and formal leader. She has sat on stage with the Dalai Lama, co-led workshops with Pema Chodron, and led community-driven leadership initiatives on 6 continents. She is the best-selling author of nine books, including the classic Leadership and the New Science (1992) and Who Do We Choose To Be? Facing Reality, Claiming Leadership, Restoring Sanity (2017), which will be republished as an all-new second edition in 2023.

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