0:13

So, Gabe, I just I want to be respectful.

0:16

I don't want to butcher your last name.

0:18

So can you. Can you help me out here?

0:21

Domino. Cello.

0:23

Domino. Cello. Okay. Perfect.

0:26

Awesome. Well, cool. Gabe, it's great to meet you.

0:28

I appreciate you coming on and chat with me, and I'm really looking forward

0:32

to learn more about umbra and synthetic aperture radar.

0:36

But more importantly, I just, I like to learn about you and understand,

0:39

you know, kind of how you got into this. You know, when you, when you were growing up where you're like, oh, man, one day

0:45

I want to I want to learn to launch SAR satellites.

0:48

You know, like, how did you get into this crazy type of, industry?

0:53

I don't think that that launching SAR satellites was anyone's childhood dream.

0:57

And as somebody who many.

1:00

I would not wish it on my worst enemy.

1:03

it is very, very difficult.

1:06

my background is. I'm just.

1:09

I'm just a normal guy. And my business partner, my co-founder, who is the CEO of umbra,

1:15

is a bona fide genius.

1:19

So, you know, growing up,

1:22

I think that if you, you know, I had a I had a company before.

1:27

But if you start a company with the smartest person, you know, it's probably a good decision.

1:33

And and I did. And as it has worked out quite well, I think,

1:37

very cool, very cool. So you talked about how difficult this.

1:40

So I wonder if you could maybe give us an idea of

1:44

when you say that you had some very, you know, strong emotion there.

1:48

Like what? What made it so difficult?

1:50

And I can only imagine, you know, I'm sure there's a million things,

1:53

but it would be a couple of things that stood out.

1:56

I think the thing is like what makes it easy? And there's there's nothing easy about inventing a time

2:02

like building it, raising money for it, launching it,

2:07

and then getting the product to market and then fighting in the market over, over.

2:12

You know, our data is very, very complex.

2:14

So it's really easy for people to not totally understand,

2:22

but I mean, there's not one difficult thing about entrepreneurship, like being an entrepreneur.

2:27

I tell people not to do it all the time.

2:30

Right? yeah, it is.

2:34

You know, we we started this business

2:38

nine years ago in our ninth year.

2:40

And a lot of the people who started very similar businesses,

2:44

at the same time, their companies no longer exist.

2:48

They're doing something else. it's been very sad to see

2:53

and, you know, we're we're very fortunate that

2:57

we invented something that is unique enough that allows us to

3:02

thrive. But it is not such it is not the case for everybody.

3:07

So as you mentioned, some of the challenges in the market and and I do want to ask you about those,

3:12

but you also mentioned, you know, inventing a satellite.

3:16

So that to me sounds very interesting.

3:18

Like you said, not not fun, but like, how how do you even begin?

3:22

Like you just like you said, you have the the CEO, super smart.

3:26

Like, how does this start?

3:29

Like, oh, let's launch a satellite. You know, like, where does this idea come from?

3:33

Where, where, where does it go from concept.

3:35

And we're going to design this thing.

3:37

How how are you funding,

3:40

you know, this type of, project.

3:43

Like how how does that even how does that spark begin?

3:48

Well, so my co-founder spent ten years working at, in the industry.

3:53

So he was originally a political science and which became orbital ATK,

3:57

which then became Northrop Grumman Innovations.

4:02

so he had a

4:05

a really good sense of the architecture and what needed to be built.

4:09

And if you don't have that level of insight,

4:12

you're really not going to be able to build the right thing.

4:16

So you see a lot of like people first year

4:19

out of college or something like, I'm going to start a satellite business.

4:23

And yeah, and you don't understand the challenges

4:26

or even really what to build.

4:29

whereas David had insights on like, you know,

4:32

I think this would be really valuable if we did it in this way.

4:35

but we also have to invent something

4:39

that doesn't exist because, like, what already exists is there.

4:43

So you need to. And something that is much much better.

4:47

in order to have commercial traction

4:51

or traction with the government.

4:54

So, so what was it about SAR then.

4:57

Like what? Like why SAR and not

5:00

you know. Yeah. Hyperspectral or some other,

5:05

you know, infrared or whatever, whatever sensor you can think of gravity, whatever.

5:09

You know, the and people love that, but they got like, why was synthetic

5:13

aperture radar the choice for umbra?

5:18

David had a lot of expertise in RF.

5:21

but I think that

5:24

we've looked at the market and the main thing that we, we observed was that

5:30

at the time, space is really coming into its own.

5:34

They were doing they maybe had not done, right, sure yet, but they were getting close

5:40

and the launch cost had come down significantly

5:43

and everyone was just trying to go smaller.

5:45

And if you wanted to produce a product, we, you know, we've this 16

5:49

centimeter imagery, our next systems can be significantly better.

5:57

You have to look at the different phenomenology.

6:00

So optical is fine.

6:03

We all have optical sensors in our face.

6:05

so it's, phenomenology

6:08

that everyone's really familiar with because we all have eyes.

6:12

Radar can see through clouds.

6:14

You can see at night. And as somebody who is looking at this from the outside, it's like, well,

6:19

if we can make money 24 over seven, like at night

6:23

when people can't make money at night, maybe that's more interesting.

6:27

It just it gave us far more optionality in generating revenue.

6:32

for something that is very image like,

6:36

and,

6:38

and that's we really fell in love with SAR as a concept, as an ability.

6:42

So like, produce value for customers.

6:46

You just produce a lot of value because it's

6:48

SAR on its very own is a perfect measurement.

6:52

So radar is very precise.

6:54

And then radar imagery is also very, very precise.

6:58

So making sure that we had a product that would be very

7:02

useful and widely useful and easily obtainable.

7:06

it seemed like it made a lot of sense.

7:09

Yeah, it's it's really interesting that you talk

7:12

about precision because a of a military background.

7:15

Right. And, you can say I grew up, you know, looking at SAR

7:20

data, stylizing sar

7:22

sar data, and I and I never thought of it as precise.

7:25

It was like, we'll use it if we have to, you know, if it's got cloud cover, if it's

7:31

if if, you know, there's something we really need to

7:33

track and understand and we, you know, for whatever reason or obscured,

7:37

you know, whatever we will pull on the SAR data.

7:41

but have you seen I find I find it,

7:44

I mean, yes, yes, and I want to get it.

7:47

I want to get into that, like. Yeah, I want to get into that because I'm just saying how

7:52

how I remember this from like, you know, this is 2000, the early 2000 and stuff.

7:57

Right? So this is using

8:00

government based, SAR satellites.

8:04

Like my perspective then was, oh,

8:06

man, I'll never want to use that unless we have absolutely have to

8:10

to maybe you can talk about like where it's at now.

8:13

Like what? Like why is SAR so useful now?

8:17

You mentioned cloud cover. I mean, that's a huge thing.

8:20

But you know what else about SAR makes it

8:23

the absolute right option for right now?

8:27

Well, I mean, it's a complex phase history.

8:30

So I mean, I, I don't even know for your audience for, for bore away.

8:36

Oh, we got some smart people. They want they want to hear it. Yeah. Yeah.

8:40

I mean, the beauty of SAR is the phased,

8:44

it's it's the measurement.

8:47

So it's

8:49

being able to understand distances,

8:52

being able to understand like if you use interferometry,

8:54

you can see how a ground surface is moving, what's happening under the ground.

8:59

Using Viper Ometer, you can look at a power line

9:04

and see if there's power moving through it. There's a lot of beauty in having that precision.

9:09

And then you can you can see power moving through a power line.

9:13

You can see the closer you can see the cat in there in the power line

9:16

which generates heat, which makes the power line

9:19

sag in such a way that you can right retain.

9:22

Like how much power? Or if it's on or off, you can see, oh, you have a generator

9:28

or like a large fan in an air conditioning unit, you could

9:31

you understand through the phase if that is vibrating.

9:34

Same can be done with like a tractor. It's it's a

9:37

really incredible tool if you know how to use it.

9:40

But for the guy at the gas station,

9:43

it's like, well, that's just like a black and white picture.

9:46

And if you're talking about radar sensors from 2000,

9:50

it's like a really, really sucky black and white picture.

9:54

If you look at this arc. Right? Oh yeah, with a lot of noise, there's always be like just so much noise.

10:00

You know, you can tell what was what.

10:02

our, our extended dwell product on our website.

10:06

And this basically is like, were you getting

10:09

pretty close to, you know,

10:12

optical.

10:14

I'm the resolution is awesome. Yeah. I like,

10:19

you know, every satellite relaunch is much better.

10:22

So, seven and eight just went up, have nine and ten going up and

10:28

probably 90 days, maybe less

10:32

a through vibe. So I mean, they're going up soon and.

10:37

I'm like I can't believe it.

10:40

Like it's better than airplane. Like it's because we would do airplane stuff to test.

10:46

We've seen a lot of plane data, which is much closer

10:49

to the Earth than five 50km.

10:52

And this is way better than anything I've seen on an airplane.

10:57

It's it's impressive.

10:59

So. Yeah. So. Okay, so you said you have seven and eight going up right now.

11:03

We have seven, eight on orbit. okay. Okay.

11:06

So it's and then we have,

11:09

two more going up in the next one couple on.

11:13

What is that process like for developing a new satellite?

11:16

I know you say it's hard, but like, what we're we're we're it's very hard.

11:21

Like, where do you, where do you start saying, okay,

11:23

this is this is what we're doing now, but you know, how long does it take to get

11:28

one, you know, from back of the napkin to, you know, up in space

11:34

and like what what does that process like for you?

11:37

Okay. I mean, I can probably say this,

11:41

I think our longest lead time on parts for eight months.

11:46

but then you have to integrate it and launch it.

11:49

The key is you have to just build satellites on the.

11:53

Com like, you just it's a bet, you know, and

11:56

you have a good insight from your customers on what they will buy.

12:00

So, you know, we've been I've been pretty stern in

12:04

that we're not going to launch satellites unless we can sell the data from them.

12:08

I don't understand a business model where you would launch a huge

12:12

constellation and not be able to sell the data seems very, very stupid.

12:18

But yeah, currently everyone has done it.

12:22

So it's just launch now. Figure it out later, I don't know. Yeah.

12:26

I mean, that might be the, you know, we've never been able to raise money

12:30

the same way that other people have because we're

12:32

you really have to understand the physics. Like, why?

12:35

Like, why is Umbro better than anyone else or like,

12:39

understanding that it's very difficult.

12:42

And if you have an MBA and you're like, well, they have X, Y and Z investor

12:47

and Umbro doesn't have that investor, Sun Valley,

12:51

Silicon Valley people know what they're doing.

12:55

Oh, I see there's just an assumption.

12:57

Yeah. And

13:00

I mean but the proof is in the pudding. I mean with,

13:03

like it's it's very obvious that we like the clear financial winner.

13:07

Anyway. So, so you mentioned a little bit about,

13:11

listening to customer demand, you know, when you're building the salads.

13:15

Well, what what are the customers saying right now?

13:18

Like what? What are the hot items that they care about and who are I mean,

13:23

I, you know, I could probably take a guess who your main customers are.

13:27

who are your main customers then?

13:29

And I'll, I'll throw in another question there, which is, is the commercial market

13:33

actually starting to pick up or is it just

13:37

smoke and mirrors?

13:40

Okay. I think

13:43

obviously, governments are our biggest customer.

13:47

and it is the

13:50

so look at a geospatial intelligence the same that you would any other market

13:54

where the biggest buyers

13:57

are like large institutions, governments.

14:00

And then you have other smaller markets like so we

14:04

we have the US government, which we have a very special relationship with.

14:07

And you know, obviously we're all American. Our dollars are American. And

14:13

we have been very, very careful about our cap table and about like, people like company,

14:19

that are U.S government relations, very special relationship.

14:23

Then you have allied foreign governments

14:26

and allied foreign governments like think five eyes, you know, eight.

14:31

So, again we have to be very careful.

14:34

And then you have the commercial market, which is

14:38

again the largest people in it,

14:41

which is like oil and gas and critical infrastructure.

14:45

So those guys have the money to pay.

14:47

I mean, radar imagery, even ours, which is fairly inexpensive

14:52

relative to others, with much higher data quality.

14:57

It's still really expensive, right?

14:59

You want three images a day. It's $1 million here.

15:03

Like it's very. Yeah, yeah.

15:08

and there's not a lot of people can do that, but oil and gas, they need to be.

15:13

They have pretty razor thin margins.

15:15

They need to be on the cutting edge of data.

15:18

And, all these industries,

15:20

if you're not staying ahead in data, you'll get crushed by your competition.

15:25

So if you're not using radar as part of your,

15:28

you know, commercial package,

15:31

you're like your competitors are and they will destroy your business.

15:35

It is it is a matter of time. The free market is the most savage thing.

15:41

ten.

15:43

I'll say politics is probably number one. The free market is the politics.

15:48

politics is probably, you know, the free market will solve all problems

15:52

and politics will always get in the way.

15:56

absolutely. that's a good way to put it.

16:02

what are some of those emerging use cases?

16:04

like, are you are you seeing,

16:08

more commercial buyers?

16:13

you know, in industries that surprise you or like, you know, what are the some of those things that are

16:17

popping up there like, oh, that's interesting. I didn't know, you know, Nike wanted to buy soccer imagery.

16:22

I'm not saying Nike does, but like, are the are there any things like that

16:25

that are popping up now that are a little bit surprising?

16:28

I think there's always, you know, the trade like people are trading commodities and stuff.

16:33

They're always really great.

16:36

It's just not obvious. Everyone knows like count the cars in all the Walmart parking lots.

16:41

If there's more cars, there's or sales in the stock.

16:45

Sure. but there's like mid-cap stocks that people are going in looking at,

16:51

which are like then you would just never guess, like,

16:55

oh, we're looking at crypto mine.

16:57

And I like crypto. My Jesus,

17:00

I think in this crypto mining, they're supposed to build this.

17:02

And if they haven't, if the factory is done sooner then we'll know.

17:06

I'm like getting a satellite image is cheaper than having

17:09

somebody drive out there and and look at the the production.

17:14

So I think there's a lot of,

17:17

you know, I, there's a chicken

17:19

man is my favorite, example for the guy

17:24

or his egg man do trade.

17:27

Okay. Commodities, which I did not know existed.

17:31

And eggs they get like, I don't know, a couple years

17:34

ago, like, they had a huge, like, went up, way up.

17:38

And that's like egg money making, like you're buying satellite imagery

17:43

to look at. So they look at fences and radar like just really well.

17:48

So it's like if you have like free range chickens,

17:52

the fences are a certain size, there's a certain number of coops.

17:56

And so he could see the egg production based on the Mac coops

17:59

and the existence of the fence, fences and chicken.

18:04

I was like, because he had a really nice watch on.

18:06

I was like, I'm like, how are you making, like enough money for $100,000?

18:14

Watch doing egg like counting eggs, like, all right.

18:19

Makes so much money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, so.

18:23

Yeah, if you're not getting rich, everybody eats eggs.

18:25

You know, there's nobody that's like, oh, eggs are bad. You know everybody.

18:28

It's it's like he's just he's a midwest guy.

18:31

It's like, if you can't make money using information that is like,

18:37

I don't know what you're doing right?

18:42

So. So if you want to get into the egg

18:44

commodity market, you need to be buying umbra.

18:47

Sorry, inventory free delivery data.

18:50

As long as you tell me what the trade is,

18:54

whatever the trade is, I got these eggs you want.

18:59

that's that's kind of interesting. well, you mentioned you guys are launching

19:04

some of the, the newer satellites, like.

19:07

And you said you're very excited for those. What about those is exciting. Like what?

19:11

Like where where are you guys pushing the boundaries with the technology?

19:14

That's that's leading to leading you to be excited.

19:17

Everything is just so like it goes

19:21

like doing this for nine years.

19:23

Like the amount of information that we have learned over

19:27

the last nine years is incredible. every time we launch a new satellite, we learn.

19:32

We learn more about our own capabilities and what the team is able to do.

19:36

And our team is extremely confident.

19:39

So we can put something in front of them like, okay,

19:43

let's say we have X amount of power, X amount of bandwidth

19:46

on of our antenna size, you know, size, weight, power.

19:50

These are very important things. Like what if we made these changes,

19:57

because we could improve the economics significantly because we understand

20:02

what our customers want more and more with every launch.

20:05

So it's like if we make our field in regard longer or, you know, wider,

20:10

and we can take more pictures as we fly over a high demand area

20:15

like that, financial ROI becomes really significant.

20:18

So you make

20:20

sometimes small changes. So every single satellite typically has some iteration.

20:26

And then it just gets better and better. Like.

20:31

Eight, eight and nine are

20:33

well or eight with seven and eight are way better than four and five

20:39

and nine is technically way better than

20:44

six and seven or whatever. We're just going to get better.

20:47

So what I mean is like we want

20:50

to improve our power aperture by an order of magnitude.

20:55

every new version of the satellite.

21:00

So, so it's the it has an increased power, increased,

21:04

our increased bandwidth increase, antenna size bigger, better,

21:09

while maintaining our unit economics,

21:12

which is critical.

21:15

The speed. How about the speed of the data transmission?

21:18

If you're using a better antenna,

21:20

does that increase the speed and how how much is that.

21:24

That's that's an on. It's a non problem.

21:27

It's a non problem. Yeah okay. Three ground stations.

21:31

We take pictures. We downlink them okay.

21:35

That's interesting. because it wasn't like that when I was doing imagery analysis.

21:39

The optical satellites the optical imagery size is much larger.

21:44

So because optical sensors tend to just stay on

21:48

and just like some light, we have to produce our own light.

21:52

So we're tasked. So if you need like that's a map of the Middle East,

21:58

you're not necessarily looking at anything in particular.

22:01

You just leave it on, you get a whole bunch of data, and then you downlink the data and it's like constraint.

22:06

But with SAR it's like, I need these 25 pictures.

22:11

When you fly over Texas.

22:14

Right. So that's pretty defined.

22:16

So we know what is needed.

22:19

Let me just make sure we have ground stations that can support it.

22:23

Well one one obvious huge use case for SAR is just scientific research.

22:28

you also mentioned that, you know, it's kind of cost prohibitive.

22:33

yeah. Three images a day for years, $1 million.

22:36

a lot of times academics don't have access to that type of capital.

22:41

unless they win some giant grant from, the federal government or something.

22:45

I mean, we're on the NASA, the $500 million NASA deal.

22:50

Okay, well, maybe you could tell me a little bit about that. What's the what's that deal that NASA has some contract

22:55

for, like half billion dollars, which is getting,

22:59

like, archived data from a whole bunch of providers.

23:02

Everyone's other questions on it.

23:04

but for us, you know,

23:07

for scientific research and like, of, like,

23:11

penguins, walruses, like all the things that, sure, people might like.

23:15

We give a lot of the data away for free.

23:17

we have an abundance of supply.

23:21

So our satellites take more pictures than any other satellites in radar.

23:26

So with an abundance supply, you can lower prices, which we've done.

23:30

And then you can also expand the market by providing data for free.

23:33

We have a program on Twitter where you literally fill out a Google form,

23:37

and we will just give you a free picture. We don't care.

23:42

So we're not going to do like mission architecture for you.

23:47

But like if you just if you want a free picture house, you know, tweet us.

23:51

We'll take you we'll take a picture for the first time they saw an emperor,

23:56

Emperor penguins like migrate was done with an umbra picture.

24:01

And I'm pretty sure they didn't pay for.

24:03

I don't think we tried something. So if you want a free umbra image, I'll put it.

24:08

How about. How about you give me the link afterwards, we'll throw it in the description

24:12

and YouTube or tweet whatever,

24:16

whatever app you're using. cool. We'll put we'll put that in there.

24:19

so our, you know, do you get a lot of interactions from,

24:24

from scientists and, and academics that are interested in using umbra

24:29

for different things? And then what are those areas?

24:32

Well, I mean, you have like hobbyists who like, it's a lot of people.

24:38

I'm not huge on the internet, but,

24:41

I do have a Twitter account with you

24:44

and I think, like, my co-founders, like, why would I put information?

24:48

I just like for people to,

24:51

that's good for that.

24:53

I have, I have a Twitter account and there are hobbyists who like,

25:00

you like,

25:02

take pictures of launch sites, like rocket launch sites

25:06

and then use, like, archive data, or they will give them free

25:10

tasking for their like, their niche, fun, exciting, or even like,

25:16

Justin Myers does, just takes pictures of junkyards.

25:21

And I'm like, well, that's a lot longer than let's see what it looks like in SA.

25:25

So you really need to be having fun. I mean, we,

25:28

we had a series of volcanoes for taking pictures of a bunch of volcanoes.

25:32

and the volcano people loved it. I think that

25:36

we, we have to support the ecosystem and with an abundance supply.

25:41

I don't know why we wouldn't.

25:44

That's awesome. I you know, I'm building a of a new office that I opened up

25:48

and, Starkville, Mississippi.

25:51

And I'm going to rap like it's got windows on the outside is going to wrap it in some type of

25:57

SAR imagery or something like that, I think. Right.

25:59

So now I'm going to order something on umbra. I'm going to go Twitch location.

26:04

I like to capture a cool image in my office.

26:07

So I have

26:09

if you can see, I have Gigafactory as one.

26:13

Damn the pyramids. They're beautiful works of art.

26:16

But, I would say cool.

26:19

You know, the real revolution of

26:22

umbra is something very boring, which is our licensing.

26:26

We use, which I think is a total revolution.

26:30

Like, use a Creative Commons license.

26:33

So for a customer, typically there's really,

26:36

really constrained licenses where it's like, if you task.

26:39

Right, like you can't if you share it with your mom, you get sued with us.

26:44

We're like to put it on the internet.

26:47

It's like it is affect like we are licensing to you, but it's your image.

26:51

Put it on a coffee cup, wrap your building in it.

26:54

We're not going to charge you more. We want the data proliferated.

26:58

Is that because they don't want you to resell it to somebody else that wants us?

27:01

Is that the entire reason? Resell it.

27:04

We just like we don't need the $500.

27:06

Like it's fine, right? Right.

27:10

I didn't know that that was the case, that they had these strict I mean, I know and so there's definitely restrictions.

27:15

We work with a lot of,

27:18

imagery companies, but,

27:21

no you couldn't. It's that move it around.

27:23

I mean, you go, go and read the user excrement for the satellite providers.

27:28

It was by far. You know, I won't be doing that, but you can summarize.

27:34

Well, I don't think I've ever yet read one of those things.

27:38

User license agreement. That's just me in the dark.

27:40

our our biggest customer

27:44

complaint before launching this album is the licenses.

27:48

And we really took it out like, we were like,

27:50

we need to give people like, how do you create value for your customers?

27:56

You give them data. They can actually is.

27:58

And so the our license is something I'm really, really proud of.

28:01

I mean, look, taking the highest resolution commercial image

28:05

from space, like all these things like launching a bunch of satellites,

28:08

there's a lot of like big wins. But in terms of like actually helping people make money,

28:14

like, if I'm not helping my customer make money,

28:17

there's no business. there's our our license has been really, really pivotal.

28:24

And I don't know why other people don't adopt it. They should.

28:28

Well, and I was even thinking from like, a federal government perspective,

28:32

you know, if the license is too restrictive,

28:34

let's say the U.S government buys an image.

28:37

Well, there might be 20 different agencies that need that image, right?

28:41

And there's you can't tweet right.

28:44

You can't tweet it. There's like if there's a tornado,

28:48

like why would you not have NOAA task and Umbra image

28:52

and then put a picture of the damage on the internet.

28:56

Right. And it's just not allowed within like essentially any other provider.

29:01

That's that's pretty interesting. And they just had those massive tornadoes in Nebraska.

29:05

So that was a lot of that. Those things are those things are crazy.

29:08

So you mentioned some of the the challenges in the market as well, like dealing with competitors.

29:16

you know, can you maybe talk about the competition in the market and are you seeing more competition?

29:22

and then like, where's where's the fight at in the, in that market?

29:25

What I mean is, is it, you know, is it on the licensing agreement,

29:30

is it on the pricing or is it simply getting in

29:32

with certain customers, like we're like, where is that?

29:34

I'd say that we're.

29:41

There's not I don't know how

29:44

our data is better.

29:47

Like the, the nautical insignia or not.

29:49

The Christmas the data is better, pricing is better.

29:53

I don't know that, but the pie is really big,

29:58

so we're not, like, fighting.

30:02

Like, I was talking to, CEO another great.

30:05

Our company. It's like, what are you winning that we're not

30:10

like we both win the same contracts, right?

30:14

It's not really competing like, we have this, like,

30:17

similar product, but, like, we both win.

30:21

So, you know, why wouldn't we want to work together and be positive for our customer?

30:26

and so I don't think it's, it's not whatever retail.

30:31

We're not selling Nike's or it's nothing against Adidas.

30:33

Right, right. There's,

30:36

all the customers are known.

30:39

You're essentially just trying to solve problems.

30:41

And it's like, what's the best way to solve a problem for your customer is

30:45

if it's not buying our data, then we'll refer you to somebody else.

30:50

we're happy to do it. So I don't think it's it's not competitive in the same way that people think.

30:56

Okay, well, I,

30:58

I see there's a lot of companies that have soccer, right.

31:00

There's, there's, you know, not one.

31:03

What's that? So okay, so the question is like new companies with star I'm not really seeing any new.

31:09

I think that the

31:11

the winners have been made. Right.

31:13

It's been nine years.

31:15

Like there's three of us is like the kind of the new entrants

31:20

and. I don't know how you would get funded

31:26

trying to compete with three organizations

31:30

raised $1 billion like, I don't I don't know who would fund that.

31:34

You would have to be a moron, especially when

31:39

it's seemingly unclear on what is happening.

31:42

So. Right. There's not that I mean, it's the industry's very, very small.

31:47

Like maybe there's 5 or 6 constellations that aren't like Chinese or Russian

31:52

because we do can't trust.

31:56

That actually brings up a good a good question in my mind.

31:59

Like.

32:03

Or do you worry about, you know, yeah.

32:06

This was happening a little bit ago where. Yeah, there was rumors of Russians, you know,

32:10

putting missiles in there and their satellite systems,

32:14

you know, is

32:16

is that something to worry about? Is that an attack vector for them to, you know, take down, satellites?

32:22

Is that something you have insurance on? And, like, how does that how does that even work out?

32:27

I think the argument could be made. It'd be much easier to screw up satellites

32:32

from Earth than scoring in them from space.

32:35

And if they're going after something, they're probably not going after us.

32:41

Probably going after bigger, juicier targets.

32:45

So that's the whole thing is like, if you look at what

32:48

the US government's doing, they want a proliferated industrial base,

32:54

just like a lot of people building a lot of things for space.

32:58

And then they want a disaggregated architecture,

33:01

which is low for low cost, high quality,

33:05

sensors that are disaggregated. So

33:09

you're not you don't have all your eggs in one basket, essentially.

33:12

Like if it cost $10 million to blow up a number of satellite number

33:17

satellite costs, a couple million dollars, like less than 10 million, right.

33:21

The bad guys lose will just launch more.

33:26

What they call that,

33:28

asymmetric warfare, right, I don't work.

33:31

I unfortunately, we're usually the United States is usually the ones that are

33:35

spending millions of dollars to shoot down things that are thousands of dollars.

33:39

right. Or more likely, it's, spending

33:43

thousands of dollars to shoot down things that are useless and worthless.

33:47

Okay. so,

33:50

you know, you mentioned some of these,

33:56

You're saying everything's hard. Everything's hard. Right? And that's good.

33:59

If you had a magic wand, though, and you could fix,

34:03

you know, 2 or 3 of these hard things and make them easier,

34:06

what would be those top those top three things?

34:10

I think that it.

34:14

Probably has to do with our ability to communicate.

34:18

So like,

34:20

it it is it is very hard to communicate what we are doing.

34:26

Like it's there's people don't want to understand it.

34:31

Like it is very hard to learn

34:33

and it's very hard to learn about something very complex.

34:36

and we may be is like many radar scientists

34:41

are just like, how do you not get it?

34:45

Like, how do you not get the difference?

34:47

Or how do you not understand the value?

34:50

well, I'll, I'll say this and, you know, and

34:55

even I've used for a long time.

34:57

So my company still uses, I don't totally understand it, you know,

35:01

and I'm sure, like, a smart scientist probably gets it right intuitively.

35:07

But I would say in general, like the geospatial intelligence market, whatever you call it, the space market,

35:13

we don't have, I think I just saw Neil deGrasse Tyson

35:16

doing something with Sky five, but we don't have like a really good

35:20

spokesperson that can, like, articulate those things,

35:24

like a scientist that can actually articulate

35:27

what's important about XYZ, z

35:29

technology within that giant realm.

35:34

so I don't, I don't I don't think that's necessarily everybody's fault.

35:37

And I think people are interested like, I'll, I'll give you an example.

35:40

You know, we have a team of analysts and we do a lot of stuff with SAR.

35:44

Sometimes it's like Sentinel, you know, it's not necessarily like the hype.

35:48

You know, we do use umbra from time to time. Usually it's funded through some type of, government customer.

35:53

if we're lucky, we get, you know, we get umbra

35:56

imagery, data, I should say,

35:59

and there is a thirst

36:02

there to learn more about it, but it is kind of like it seems

36:05

it seems complex and there's like, maybe a barrier to entry somewhere.

36:10

And there where, you know, these are scientists.

36:13

Maybe they should have a YouTube channel. Do they have a YouTube channel?

36:15

You know, how do they how do we actually help people learn

36:19

more about it so that we can proliferate the use cases so people

36:22

can actually take advantage of it so that the United States can stay ahead.

36:26

And and the talent pool, became,

36:29

and and be ahead in that way, you know, like,

36:34

so I was looking at scientific papers on radar.

36:38

The Chinese have released thousands of scientific papers

36:42

on space based radar.

36:45

The United States has released, I think, 90.

36:50

Wow. So we like that's a real problem.

36:54

And our open data,

36:58

our open data, I think is another revolution, much like our licensing.

37:02

So our open data is free.

37:05

we're taking, I think, somewhere between 10 and 20 images

37:10

per day of the different locations,

37:14

just so that people can use it and they can use it, they can monetize it.

37:19

They understand that we do a lot of things like ports or,

37:23

arms or like all these different sectors.

37:26

So essentially all we can do is go to a customer and be like, okay, you're

37:30

looking at farms, here's a bunch of farm free farm data, monetize it,

37:36

demonstrate a use to your customer, and then buy the data.

37:41

So I think that the key there

37:44

to the do they know how to do that.

37:47

Like if I were to if I were to take what you said

37:49

and bring it like next door to me, I have a team of image analysts.

37:53

Right. I said monetize this. They wouldn't know how to do that.

37:56

I don't like doing. But yeah, I mean, you have a very good point.

38:00

It's like, look, are we going to have this our education center for excellence?

38:05

Gosh, I hope so. But I think might is like if I put radar data

38:11

in front of college students for free,

38:15

we are 100 steps closer

38:18

to widely for knowledge.

38:21

And I think our open data certainly is a an option.

38:26

Right. Like you're providing optionality to the market that did not ever exist

38:31

before, knowing no one has ever gotten

38:35

huge radar data sets for free from space.

38:38

I remember when we first started,

38:42

we bought a textbook with a CD-Rom

38:45

that had a single sample image on,

38:47

like from that to

38:50

I think we've released $4 million at our prices, which probably would be

38:53

the equivalent of $40 million from like a prime, like an Airbus.

38:59

is is such a step forward

39:03

that just did not exist before.

39:08

So if you're interested in synthetic aperture radar, you need to go to umbra.

39:11

Was umbra that space? Right? We're not. That's to be confused with,

39:14

the other company that pops up when you Google umbra. Yes.

39:18

Which is the modern home and decor. just to make sure it's not modern home decor, it's

39:25

definitely the one related to space and, radar

39:28

imagery.

39:32

I mean, I just find what you're doing super interesting, you know, like, it's

39:38

launching, like, launching something in the space, you know, and then

39:42

there's a very small pool of people that really understand it

39:45

at a in depth level, like you're talking about.

39:48

And from a business as an entrepreneur myself

39:50

and a business person, I'm thinking, man, that's risky.

39:53

You know? Man, that's risky. what do you think are the biggest opportunities

39:57

in there, for you that maybe you guys haven't tapped into yet?

40:01

Like what's what's what's next in the market space?

40:04

that you're like, maybe that might be something, you know,

40:08

so we do future any kind of analysis on our own.

40:12

okay. Which is because we don't want to have a channel conflict with our customers.

40:17

But I sure in this demonstrated by many providers who are like,

40:21

oh, what are you looking at? Maybe I can make money from that.

40:23

I think it's a very negative way to run and run a business.

40:27

so the answer is like, what cool idea can an analytics company

40:34

come up with and how can we help them in the way we can help them?

40:38

Is an open license free data.

40:41

You know, you need to start enabling your customers to make money themselves,

40:45

rather than trying to steal from them or or,

40:48

you know, we just it is so important to be a positive player in the market

40:53

where everyone is like, well, we like the other guys.

40:57

They're not going to screw us. I think that's the way all providers should do that.

41:03

at that point, you're you're more of a partner with that analytics provider because ultimately they're providing,

41:09

an answer to an end customer who's paying for it.

41:12

Right? And in turn, getting paid.

41:14

So partnerships are a big area.

41:17

are there any other I mean, how would you ever have a successful business

41:22

if your customers could trust you?

41:25

Right? This doesn't work. Yeah.

41:28

it simply doesn't work. well, I'll I'll I'll take that back.

41:33

Only only in the government

41:35

contracting space can you have zero trust,

41:39

and your business do just fine because these contracts get awarded there.

41:43

Fixed. You have something, and I can't.

41:45

It's immovable, you know, Bob knows Fred at the office, and they've.

41:50

They went to, you know, junior high together or they were served in the military together.

41:55

And, you know, that relationship's great, but the rest of the company is crap.

41:59

So they're going to win anyways, right? I would say only in the government space is what you're saying.

42:05

not true, unfortunately.

42:07

But for the rest of it, for the rest of it.

42:10

So what you're saying is true, but everyone is tired.

42:15

They're everyone. Everyone is tired of it.

42:19

The the the antibodies to

42:22

everybody is just sick of it.

42:25

And you're seeing

42:28

the industry very, very slowly evolve.

42:32

And, you know, there was a big announcement

42:34

with Andrew winning that billion dollar,

42:37

jet contract. Yeah. It never happened five years ago would have never happened.

42:43

Well it didn't happen. Well also Boeing just won or Boing

42:48

Boing lost a big, contract

42:51

to, Sierra Nevada to do, like,

42:54

you know, up the sector plane and a bunch of other aircraft,

42:59

$13 billion contract and Sierra Nevada, that's not a household name.

43:03

Everybody knows Boeing, right? But Sierra Nevada, you know, that's that's interesting that they have that.

43:08

And then Anduril popping up obviously some of these other kind of new tech

43:14

tech focused, just like not.

43:18

Yeah. You I mean, well, I don't want to criticize Boeing, but,

43:21

you know, you're just not getting.

43:25

How do you deliver the best value to the taxpayer?

43:28

And clearly it is not some of these organizations

43:32

who are just like spending $1 billion on a fighter jet

43:37

that does not fly in the rain like that doesn't make sense anymore.

43:41

Right? And like I say, the free market solves all problems.

43:46

Government is not the free market. And you have a lot of this, like crony ism that maybe exists.

43:53

People are sick and tired of it because it's

43:55

it's well, it's unfair, but now it's becoming dangerous.

43:59

Like it's becoming dangerous to the point where like, right,

44:02

we need to evolve our military to points

44:05

like fight with gigantic nation states that don't have this.

44:10

And maybe they have it and it's their corruption is so efficient that they're very efficient corruption.

44:16

Yeah. But like, we, But these companies are capable, like,

44:21

every single prime, every single government person was like

44:25

you, you're you're putting a hinge on antenna that's never going to work.

44:28

Like, there's no like there's

44:31

there's ratchets and it's going to move and blah, blah.

44:34

And I'm like, you have a hinge on a door, like, what are you talking, a hinge?

44:39

That's not a big that's that's not a big lift.

44:41

And then suddenly they're like, this is never going to work.

44:45

We find we found a group of investors that said hinge could probably work like

44:50

it's this free, asymmetrical bent like the hinge works for the best thing. And

44:56

best thing since sliced bread.

44:58

We'll take the back. And why is why is that a big deal?

45:01

The hinge on the antenna. Like, can you explain that?

45:04

like, so we have, antenna that folds out

45:09

so right here, it's like, looks like a little cat.

45:12

And then so our launch cost is very, very low.

45:16

Like, I don't probably can't afford it, but it's like, sure.

45:20

Not more than $1 million.

45:24

So then it goes up.

45:26

And so the whole thing is we're competing with these large legacy

45:30

satellites that are gigantic. And our antenna deploys to it like 3.8.

45:36

I mean, I think it's the ones that we have in space, probably 3.8 or 4m.

45:43

so they're huge. And if they're circular, it's r squared.

45:46

So we have the same surface area of like a school bus.

45:50

Okay. And that allows us to like when we send an impulse down

45:55

bounces off Earth, and then we have a really, really big way to receive it,

45:59

which is why our data so crisp relative to anybody else's.

46:04

So so is the hinge just allows that expansion.

46:07

Like kind of it's like almost like a closed flower and then open floor.

46:11

Okay. It's like that makes sense. Does not seem like makes sense, does not seem like a big innovation.

46:18

But nine years ago did you patent the hinge?

46:21

We did. See this is a big innovation.

46:24

Yeah. You know, as long as you got a patent, their first patent,

46:28

on something like that in like 20 years. Wow.

46:33

And so, we we talked about some of the

46:39

mean. I feel like the. Yeah, if you probably sit here all day and just talk about

46:43

what's happening in the government and this,

46:47

you know, are they are they, largest customer, the US government,

46:50

I mean, just make an assumption, but that's not the case.

46:53

The US government is a large part of our.

46:56

It's got it, got it. well, you know, it is what it is.

47:04

but it's a special relationship, right?

47:06

I mean, I think that we probably don't have that, but for us, it is a really, really.

47:12

We did it, you know? David. Look, I have a, come and take it thing on my wall, like,

47:18

we're, And I'm bringing big American flag next to it.

47:21

So, like.

47:23

We are patriots. We love this country.

47:26

and we want to deliver value to the country.

47:29

And, look, government is in many cases not the easiest customer

47:33

and in some cases, the best customer.

47:35

Right.

47:37

And we want to support them. And I believe they want to support us.

47:42

Or are there any other SAR companies that are U.S based?

47:46

Yeah, okay.

47:49

I wasn't I wasn't tracking okay.

47:51

They're not here. So you don't have to name drop them.

47:54

okay.

47:56

Very very good I wasn't sure. I thought you guys were maybe the only one.

48:00

I know a lot of the a lot of the SAR companies are foreign.

48:05

that's. Or maybe.

48:08

Yeah, there's only two in the United. Okay, okay.

48:11

well, yeah. You're right. There's. That's not a big pool to compete with.

48:15

are you guys always going to stick with SAR,

48:18

or are there other technologies that are like that we should launch?

48:22

you know, some other type of sensor, you know, or,

48:28

Sigint sensor or whatever, like, is there anything there

48:32

or are you guys always strictly going to focus on what SaaS providing

48:37

or are there are there other things you could maybe throw on the same?

48:41

And I'm talking about this like an idiot. I don't know anything about satellites.

48:44

is there any other sensors that you could throw on there

48:48

that maybe

48:50

empower SAR to be better, enable SAR to be more useful to that,

48:56

you know, guy tracking chicken, chicken, eggs or whatever.

48:59

So this goes to your first question. Did I think that I would be, did I eat like, whatever as a kid,

49:05

a the founder of a synthetic aperture radar company?

49:08

The answer is now right. But what is true is that we will do anything

49:15

that produces the same profit margin as our radar business.

49:19

And so we've looked at other stuff,

49:24

and it is not to say that we wouldn't do something else, but like the keep you.

49:29

I refuse to have a business that is not profitable.

49:33

I'm not doing it. I, I there's a lot of these satellite providers are publicly traded.

49:39

I read their panels.

49:42

I'm not doing them. I'm not doing it to make.

49:46

Like I'm not doing it. So if we do something or if we pursue like mission solutions,

49:52

let's say where like we have one mission solutions contracts.

49:56

one is publicly known as like the DARPA contract for satellites

50:01

that are flying in concert with one another.

50:06

that does all kinds of you have satellites to fly close to one another.

50:09

You can do a lot of really fun things.

50:11

we will, especially SAR.

50:15

Right. Because you can bounce the way things bounce off all kinds of things.

50:19

Okay. Because it is okay. It's not like this.

50:22

They swapping selfies, though, you're saying, oh, look at this

50:26

okay, I see I see what you guys are all about. yes.

50:29

It's it's a big selfie. This is the the team on selfies.

50:33

Okay. so yeah, we will pursue anything that makes money.

50:38

Okay. That makes sense. So our mission solutions business where we're doing specific

50:43

like missions or constellations for sure

50:47

for ally governments or own government, is is a growing part of the business.

50:51

I don't know, like we yeah, we

50:57

we're not going to pursue something haphazardly.

51:00

Everything that we have ever done has been extremely deliberate.

51:04

And it's been deliberate because, you know, previously we're capital

51:07

constrained. So it's like we didn't have the money in the in.

51:12

So we launched our first two satellites, only having raised $12 million to build

51:17

them were like, that is not a lot of money.

51:21

Listen right. so we had to come up with innovations

51:26

that allowed us to, like, generate large amounts of revenue, like

51:30

just because we make money now and just because we have access to more capital

51:34

doesn't mean that we're not going to behave as scrappy as possible

51:39

if you got a scrap.

51:41

And if you if you solve problems with money and not technology, you will lose.

51:46

You will not have a business because somebody else will do it.

51:50

Like I said, it's hard.

51:52

Like typically the right path is the hardest path.

51:56

right.

51:58

And like as time goes on, like just starts being easy, like,

52:02

I mean, just buy these parts and not have to invent anything.

52:06

right. Well, we have a lead, and, like,

52:09

maybe we just continue doing it and that's not acceptable.

52:12

We have to be ten times better every single year.

52:16

Every single part of the business. Down from the people to the satellite systems.

52:21

We do not have choice.

52:23

And that's that's a good lesson for almost any, any business or any human really.

52:29

Like, if it's easy, it's probably not the right.

52:32

It's not the right choice for you, especially for that.

52:35

That goes to a broken part of the system.

52:38

Investors do not invest in startups.

52:40

Investors. Their main purpose is to raise funds.

52:46

And the way that they raise new funds is our internal rate of return.

52:51

So you're you have now,

52:53

if you take anybody else's money, you have somebody on your cap table

52:57

whose incentive is to have a high IRR.

53:02

Sure, the fastest way to get a high IRR is to, in space,

53:06

get to space, take the first image, get a new round

53:11

IPO, whatever, as quickly as possible.

53:14

The quickest way to do something is to buy

53:17

like it is way harder. Like essentially the three like new entrants all start.

53:25

All three of us had the same idea at the same time.

53:29

We were the last to get to space

53:32

because we took a much, much harder path

53:35

where we are in invent stuff that we haven't been very handsome.

53:39

We have. We had significant capital constraints.

53:42

but I think ultimately has turned out well because, I mean,

53:48

the common represents a large portion of the shareholder group.

53:52

I think it's an

53:56

in terms of like,

53:59

like healthiness of the company. I think we're by far the biggest just

54:04

but it's been way harder. I would not recommend.

54:09

well, you're you're out there in Austin, Texas,

54:11

which is actually, you know,

54:15

kind of a, an emerging space market, I guess you could say, it's come out of nowhere.

54:20

I guess you'd say everyone. Houston was always the space, the space city.

54:25

Right?

54:29

what what changes have there been in

54:32

maybe with some of the stuff that Elon Musk is doing with

54:34

the reusable rockets like, or are there

54:38

things that are reducing these costs, like you mentioned, about $1 million?

54:41

I'm sure that used to cost a lot more, to, to hitch a ride to space.

54:46

are you seeing some of those costs go down on those, those types of things?

54:50

Now that you have, you have at least SpaceX.

54:53

But then, is in Blue Origin working on kind of the same thing.

54:57

I don't know if they're feasible yet or where they're at, but

55:01

are those costs going down? And then, are you able

55:06

to take advantage of that to help, like you mentioned, are all about profit

55:09

and margin, you know, so I'm thinking about how do we reduce costs,

55:13

where those where those cost savings come in.

55:17

So to on SpaceX, we go to the website to launch

55:19

a 150kg cost a million.

55:23

Okay.

55:25

when we started,

55:27

maybe costs like 5 million,

55:30

Starship to launch our satellite,

55:34

it would cost $1,200.

55:37

No. That's insane.

55:40

That's that's wild.

55:43

Holy moly. That's that's huge.

55:45

So that I mean, that's an interesting.

55:48

But I mean, I can't even fathom that this is what I mean by like,

55:51

if you are not innovating and you are not staying in the cutting

55:54

edge, you are not scared you will fail.

55:58

Like, well, in in your instance, you get to, you get to,

56:06

Kind of ride this wave of, of innovation that's happening in rocketry, right?

56:11

I mean, you guys aren't building rockets, you're building satellites,

56:14

which help reduce

56:17

will reduce your costs. sounds like significantly, but wouldn't that also create

56:23

or lower the barrier to entry to do what you're doing?

56:27

And then so in water. So what are you doing to prepare for that.

56:30

Because it sounds like, you know, obviously there's still a ways

56:33

to go before that's a viable rocket.

56:36

they're probably getting pretty close.

56:39

I wouldn't bet against,

56:43

no, you won't catch me betting against them at all.

56:48

you know, there will be a flood of of new companies

56:52

getting into the game.

56:55

if that's the cost. I mean, $1,200. I mean, that's peanuts, you know,

57:01

so now so now it's going to the focus turns instead of the launch costs you

57:07

the focus. And I'm just guessing here the focus becomes making that satellite

57:12

as good as humanly possible, or maybe getting more satellites up faster.

57:17

you know, getting rid of some of the old crap

57:20

and just getting the newest, hottest, latest stuff in there.

57:24

Like, you tell me, like, how does, how are you thinking through that?

57:28

Well, I mean, I would I,

57:30

I a turnaround in, in some ways like I wouldn't,

57:35

I wouldn't compete against a company with the best technology and essentially unlimited resources

57:42

whose costs are going down and then start

57:45

beginning like,

57:48

I don't know that SA is going to turn into this,

57:52

like even optical hasn't turned into this, like huge thing with like 100 companies.

57:57

I mean, SA specifically is fairly niche,

58:01

but what this lower barrier to entry does is creates,

58:05

it creates far more opportunities for me than it does for anyone else.

58:09

But, because we have an abundance of resources,

58:13

we also there's a lot in the culture where you have founders

58:17

who still run the company with a lot of equity.

58:20

So you have other companies where are the

58:22

founders are gone and have matured past it or the founder?

58:26

Equity is so low that it just

58:29

it's like there's just like fi

58:32

just trying to get through it.

58:36

when you, when you have that,

58:38

that you know my behavior is not like some hired

58:42

CEO, David's behavior is not like some hired CEO.

58:46

Like right. This is our company.

58:48

Like we are very like

58:51

we force innovation

58:54

like David is still

58:56

driving brilliant designs.

59:00

and now he's gone

59:02

from highly competent genius to totally lethal

59:06

because now he has unlimited resources of knowledge. So

59:11

yes, a lower barrier to entry is good generally for the market, generally for everything.

59:16

The entire ecosystem means that you can deploy and test products much, much faster

59:22

and allows larger companies to adopt new products much faster.

59:27

but I don't I don't see

59:29

building and launching a constellation as

59:33

something that anyone want to

59:36

reverse. They might not they might not want to do it.

59:38

But but I think even in this podcast right here, you have said

59:42

that there's only two SA companies in the United States.

59:45

I mean, it's just going to happen, right? Like there will be more SA companies, people, people are motivated by money.

59:51

And we talked about the you know, federal government corruption.

59:56

I guarantee you there's going to be people with connections and a few dollars in their pocket.

1:00:00

And they're they're going to want to launch these new these new companies.

1:00:06

Now, you said you're innovating.

1:00:08

You have the resources you're pushing.

1:00:10

I'm just I'm just trying to be realistic about,

1:00:14

you know, there is an opening in the market if you're saying there's only two companies in the United States,

1:00:19

there will be more.

1:00:22

I mean, they're just there has to be. There's no there's no choice.

1:00:26

that's that's the free market, right? It's it's going to proliferate if the cost is that cheap, $1,200.

1:00:31

I mean, I heard anybody think I heard the same thing at two point

1:00:35

am I heard the same thing in a million or so.

1:00:38

Only two. I and I think that it's maybe other people are smarter than us and just like

1:00:45

but but there's a big difference between $1 million, right?

1:00:48

$1 million even even still to the average the average person seems.

1:00:53

I'll still still probably so. No, no.

1:00:55

Yeah. Like the cost when we started to launch,

1:00:59

any satellite for rideshare was like $100 million.

1:01:03

Yeah. And brought the price by 99%.

1:01:07

And again, they're going to drop the price by 99%.

1:01:10

I'm not saying that there isn't

1:01:13

more opportunity or lower barrier.

1:01:15

I'm saying is it is going to be nearly impossible

1:01:19

to be competitive with like,

1:01:23

all the best people working at the same kind of company.

1:01:26

So like, yes, there'll be new stuff, but it'll be more niche.

1:01:30

I don't see it as like a direct competitor.

1:01:34

And and that's what I said earlier is like I said, the other key,

1:01:39

we're winning things together.

1:01:41

Like it's not

1:01:43

it's not winner for now.

1:01:46

For now I'm saying yeah, yeah I know and and who knows.

1:01:51

hopefully they I hope they keep buying more, more data because, we certainly love to use it.

1:01:57

well, I mean, hopefully the market does continue to expand and that helps.

1:02:02

You know, I've watched the guys watch the market like the,

1:02:07

I have a pretty good sense the revenue of all the companies.

1:02:11

It's going up forever.

1:02:13

Like the rising tide is, is rising.

1:02:16

Everybody up. It is great.

1:02:19

This is so I don't know that a new entrant

1:02:22

who has a new product that gets people interested in radar,

1:02:26

that whatever made their their product

1:02:29

does time travel or whatever it is, this is time travel.

1:02:32

Sorry, time travel a decade. Yeah.

1:02:34

they might go find a fun game and, yeah, 12 year old Gabe and take care of him, you know?

1:02:41

but but you also have at that cost, too. You might have companies that are already in space and, and

1:02:47

and have other systems say, oh, well, maybe it's so cheap to launch now.

1:02:51

Maybe we just focus on building out more, more sensor types,

1:02:55

getting more of those up, you know, like the,

1:02:58

you know, all the all the big names and say so yeah, I think it's very attractive.

1:03:03

I, I yeah, I just, I don't think that expanding the market

1:03:06

is going to in any way be negative for us, especially when we continually

1:03:10

have had the best product to service and lowest cost.

1:03:15

So like if that's something. So if there's lower barrier to entry or something

1:03:18

that somebody with no resources can take advantage of, it's something that

1:03:22

somebody with tremendous resources also can take advantage.

1:03:25

Sure. And I wouldn't want to just I mean,

1:03:29

other than somebody like like

1:03:31

I wouldn't want to discourage somebody from not starting a sorry company.

1:03:36

but only do it if you're prepared because it's very difficult, very hard.

1:03:40

It's very hard and it's probably soul sucking at times and late nights

1:03:44

and all that good stuff. well.

1:03:50

Very good, very good. So how do people find, umbra?

1:03:55

and what would you like, everyone to know about what you guys are doing

1:04:00

besides all the cool stuff you've already told us about, so you can find us

1:04:03

at umbra, Space.com, or, dot space.

1:04:07

we have we're we're active on Twitter.

1:04:11

We're releasing a lot of really cool imagery every day on Twitter.

1:04:14

I have a Twitter that I sometimes use, but if I do use it, I'm very helpful.

1:04:20

But I think that the and my is my last name.

1:04:23

It's at sign. My last name. But I think the main takeaway is that

1:04:27

umbra would not exist if it wasn't for our customers.

1:04:31

Like we are a customer driven company, we want to make sure that our customers

1:04:35

get the best products, the lowest prices, even if it's not from us.

1:04:40

we're here to make sure that, like

1:04:43

the people in the industry, people like you can make a lot of money,

1:04:47

like provide great lives for their families.

1:04:49

and we're not going to be successful unless you're successful.

1:04:54

Well, very good. And I'm all about it. I'll definitely, task at umbra satellite here very soon.

1:05:00

it's like, and we we love using, umbra when we get a chance to use it.

1:05:05

So I really appreciate your time and coming on to chat about what you guys are doing.

1:05:10

And hopefully we'll see you around, in Orlando,

1:05:13

and we'll have a better place in Orlando. I don't go to.

1:05:16

I don't know Orlando, but. Okay. All right. Well, you should.

1:05:19

I've done more geofence than I,

1:05:23

I gotcha, I gotcha. It's all good. Oh. Very good. make sure you check out.

1:05:27

We'll put links in the description to connect with umbra.

1:05:30

And maybe you should order your own satellite imagery.

1:05:33

Yeah. And then also get us on Sky fi if you want a really easy way to get an image.

1:05:39

yeah. And we have our entire free archive

1:05:43

is, on Sky fi and on our website.

1:05:46

Very cool, very cool.