0:01

You don't help the poor by

0:03

making everybody poorer. The media

0:06

has a frame, and the frame is

0:08

Israel is the oppressor, and the Palestinians

0:10

are the oppressed. I shouldn't be forced

0:12

to acknowledge my privilege unless I desire

0:14

for that to be part of my

0:16

interaction with somebody else. What I know

0:19

to be true and what all of my fellow

0:21

Gen Z know to be true is that

0:23

this is the most talented generation yet.

0:25

With respect to every indicia

0:27

of disadvantage, there is still

0:29

a racial hierarchy. And though I

0:32

am of course an Anglo, I'm certainly

0:34

not a f***ing sex addict. Welcome

0:37

to the Monk Debates. Every episode we provide

0:39

you with a civil and substantive debate on

0:41

the big issue of the day. Our goal

0:43

is to arm you, the listener, with enough

0:45

information to make up your own mind. Today's

0:49

debate be resolved. Elites have

0:51

betrayed America. With

0:55

Richmond North of Richmond, the

0:57

Lord knows that all just

0:59

want to have total control.

1:02

Want to know what you think,

1:04

want to know what you do,

1:06

and they don't think you know.

1:08

But I know that you do,

1:10

because your dollar ain't shit, and

1:13

his tax to no end. Cause

1:15

a rich man, don't the rich

1:17

man. In

1:23

the end, the politician, Oliver Anthony debuted at number one

1:25

on the charts in the fall of 2023, giving

1:29

voice to the anger and frustration felt by

1:31

a generation of Americans struggling to make ends

1:33

meet. Populists

1:35

argue that government agencies and our

1:37

culture as a whole have been

1:39

captured by an elite college educated

1:42

class whose policies benefit

1:44

them, the privileged few while

1:46

ignoring the needs of working

1:48

Americans. That's why I'm

1:50

here with Trump's former Chief of Staff, Steve Bannon. based

2:00

in this country has been eviscerated in

2:02

the elites, the ascended economy of Silicon

2:04

Valley, Wall Street, Hollywood and

2:07

Washington DC, and she's got the gall to sit

2:09

up there. Populism's critics

2:11

believe that the rising tide

2:13

in anti-establishment thinking ignores the

2:15

incredible progress being made on

2:18

healthcare, education, technology, all the

2:20

factors and forces transforming our

2:22

lives for the better, forces

2:25

brought about by the

2:27

skills, the fortitude, the

2:29

intellectual curiosity of elites.

2:32

Populist anger, the critics

2:34

argue, represents a grave threat

2:36

to Western democracies and the

2:38

trusted institutions that have underwritten

2:41

our security and prosperity.

2:45

On this installment of the Monk Debates

2:47

podcast, we challenge the essence of these

2:49

arguments by debating the motion, be it

2:51

resolved, elites have betrayed America. Moving

2:54

in favor of the motion is Batya

2:56

Angar Sargun. She's the opinion editor

2:58

of Newsweek and author of the

3:00

new book, Second Class, How the

3:03

Elites Betrayed America's Working Men and

3:05

Women. Arguing against the

3:07

motion is Joel Stein. He's a former columnist

3:09

at Time Magazine and author

3:11

of In Defense of the Leads. Batya,

3:15

Joel, welcome to the Monk Debates.

3:18

Hi, thanks for having me. Hey, good to

3:20

be here. Great debate

3:22

today. It's one

3:24

that we've wanted to do for a

3:26

while now on the Monk Debates podcast,

3:29

so the opportunity to dig into this

3:31

meaty topic with you both is appreciated.

3:33

Batya, as per our debate convention here,

3:35

we're going to put two minutes on

3:37

our show clock. Turn the

3:40

program over to you. You're arguing for our motion,

3:42

be it resolved, elites have betrayed

3:45

America. In

3:47

the next hour, I'm going to convince you

3:49

that the elites have betrayed America. Who

3:52

are these elites? You Can define

3:54

them economically as people who are wealthier than

3:56

the average American. You can define them as

3:58

the expert class, people with credential. You

4:01

can provide them culturally as the

4:03

media or the political class. But

4:05

here's the thing however you define

4:08

elite, the truth remains the same.

4:10

The elites have betrayed the American

4:12

people because be expert and the

4:14

cultural elites have become the economic

4:17

elites through an intentional plunder of

4:19

the middle class. Of course the

4:21

experts betrayed America with bad expertise

4:24

to economist convinced us set free

4:26

trade would be great when the

4:28

true is is devastated. The working

4:31

class, the medical establishment told us that

4:33

the vaccinated can't catch cove it and

4:35

their children would die of it, which

4:37

was nonsense that led to social and

4:40

economic devastation. The foreign policy experts told

4:42

us that we needed to wage endless

4:44

wars, fruitless bloody endeavors that made the

4:46

world less safe, and a journalist cast

4:49

told us that every Trump voter is

4:51

racist. Well, the black and Hispanic voters

4:53

fleeing the Democratic party for Trump would

4:55

beg to differ. The real scandal, though,

4:58

is that while giving us this. Terrible

5:00

expert advice. The Elites were engaged

5:03

in class warfare against the working

5:05

class, literally lining their pockets with

5:07

the proceeds of their policies. Steaks

5:10

sported good paying manufacturing jobs to

5:12

China and imported cheap goods for

5:15

themselves and then created an economy

5:17

that rewards knowledge, industry jobs and

5:19

destroys working class communities. Stay smeared

5:22

Working class Americans as racists for

5:24

wanting less competition from illegal migrants

5:26

and then opened the border to

5:29

demolish working. Class wages. Further back

5:31

in the nineties, the average working

5:33

class person earned and income commensurate

5:36

to that of the average college

5:38

professor. The majority of the Gdp

5:40

was in the middle class today.

5:42

the top twenty percent, though same

5:45

college professors and other elites control

5:47

over fifty percent of the Gdp,

5:49

while the working class struggle. So

5:51

for groceries, this didn't happen by

5:53

accident, but by an over credentialed

5:56

elite who use their positions to

5:58

create policy that actively. The remind

6:00

the middle class with it up or

6:02

transfer of wealth to themselves. Be it

6:05

resolved, The Elites have betrayed the American

6:07

people. Thank you

6:09

Basher for that hoping. Same as

6:11

you're listening to or debates. Had

6:13

day on a Leafs healthy betrayed

6:15

us or not, it's Jaws arguing

6:17

against the most. I'm jealous of

6:19

your. Opening. Statement Now. That.

6:22

Was that was a lot? Okay, I'll

6:25

stop worrying about populism back in two

6:27

thousand it is. When. I heard

6:29

Sarah Palin say i'm never going to pretend

6:31

like I know more than the next person.

6:34

I'm not going to pretend to be an

6:36

elitist. In fact, I'm going to fight the

6:38

of buddhist. Surveillance.

6:40

Seemingly was unaware there's a third option.

6:43

To learn something so you know something more

6:45

than the next person? This

6:47

myth that the elite or selfishly

6:49

rigging the system while doing nothing

6:52

useful conveniently ignores the fact that

6:54

the system we built is also.

6:57

If. This were an argument for any other

6:59

group of your besides the elite. I'd

7:01

now list all the amazing things we've

7:03

accomplished and contributed throughout history, but I

7:05

don't need to do that. Because.

7:08

Elites have created everything that

7:10

ever existed. Except. Maybe like

7:12

jello wrestling? As honestly,

7:14

the Ancient Greeks created wrestling. And

7:17

I think I'm Peter Cooper who founded

7:19

the Universe. These. Discovered. Gelatin

7:21

so all the now beats every i

7:23

put jello and wrestling together. That's

7:25

or big accomplishment. And know

7:28

it's now. go over the great

7:30

successes of Populism where we define

7:32

the sky. A mythical real American

7:34

or real German. The working class

7:36

who knows from their got what

7:38

his way. To. Accomplish months

7:40

of populism include. The. Dark

7:42

Ages. China's. Cultural Revolution.

7:45

North. Korea, Pol.

7:48

Pot skimmers, Andrew

7:50

Jackson. Network Television

7:52

says disaster after disaster.

7:56

Know the Elites haven't gotten

7:58

everything right. New One. The

8:00

in every part of society that runs

8:02

it is ever going to get everything

8:04

right. But. They've done a hell of

8:06

a job. A. Leaders, I'm

8:08

his expertise. And. Is

8:11

an ever more complex society? We

8:13

need expertise. He. Attack on

8:15

the Elites is nothing but fear. It's

8:17

the political expression of this anxiety.

8:20

That. We would like to return to it's

8:22

simpler pre modern life. And.

8:24

If we get rid of the elite. That's exactly

8:27

what's gonna happen. And. No one's gonna

8:29

like it. Thank. You

8:31

Joe for that, don't think same And now

8:33

we move on to rip bottles or basher

8:35

your opportunity of react to what you just

8:37

heard from show. Now. You.

8:39

Know most working class people don't

8:41

want to go back to a

8:43

pre modern time. They wanna go

8:46

back to the seventies when working

8:48

class wages and productivity moved hand

8:50

in hand. What happened in Nineteen

8:52

seventy One is that productivity and

8:54

wages, the couples and all of

8:56

the Gdp that was created by

8:58

increasing exponentially process and productivity went

9:00

to the elites and not and

9:02

away from the working class who

9:04

produced all that profits and mean

9:06

what they really want is a

9:08

return to a very. Recent past

9:10

in which it felt like the

9:12

middle class was stronger because it

9:14

objective leads wise and to your

9:16

point about the elite creating everything

9:18

and populism been terrible. The populist

9:20

vision is that when the majority

9:22

of a country wants and saying

9:24

it should have and that's really

9:26

another word for democracy. The vast

9:29

majority of working class Americans which

9:31

is the majority of this country

9:33

has a very clear vision of

9:35

how it there are lots could

9:37

be improved and how they have

9:39

been sold. down the river economically they

9:41

don't want to return to any cultural pass

9:43

in fact they're much more tolerant and they

9:45

have ever been there extremely propagates their into

9:47

diversity and interracial marriage the idea that this

9:49

has been to riven by it's you know

9:52

this feeling of you know bigotry or or

9:54

racial animus and all of this it's just

9:56

nonsense as you know because you spent time

9:58

with a lot of the people, Joel.

10:00

So to me, what they want is what

10:02

everybody wants, which is for a country to

10:04

be built on a strong middle class. And

10:07

it is the elites that have made that

10:09

increasingly impossible. Thank you,

10:11

Baccia. Okay, Joel, you're rebuttal now.

10:13

You can react to Baccia's opening

10:15

statement or her remarks in response

10:17

to your opening. First

10:20

of all, I am honored to be debating

10:22

you. You've written

10:24

for New York Times. You've been

10:26

on NPR. You have a PhD

10:28

from Berkeley, and I believe the

10:31

18th century novel. So I

10:33

love talking about elitism with you.

10:36

The desire to return to the 1970s is definitely going

10:40

back in time and to a

10:42

time that we can't return to. The problem,

10:44

I think you're conflating the

10:46

word elite in a

10:49

way that you shouldn't, which is there is

10:51

an economic elite and there's a

10:53

cultural elite. And they're not the same

10:55

people. There's plenty of people in the

10:57

middle of the country who are entrepreneurs, who started

10:59

businesses where they own a bunch of

11:02

gas stations, et cetera, who are part of the

11:04

economic elite. What I think populist,

11:07

at least in this country, tend to

11:09

focus on is the intellectual elite.

11:12

And to say that people, it's

11:14

a democracy and people can vote for

11:16

whoever they want, the

11:19

majority of people they vote for

11:21

are experts. Most people

11:23

in the Senate or Congress, they've

11:25

almost all gone to college. More

11:28

of them have gone to Harvard than

11:30

any other college. This is who people

11:32

choose because we know it's a complex

11:34

society. We're going through a great shift

11:37

to a knowledge economy, which is devastated,

11:40

the middle class, devastated men,

11:42

particularly in the middle class. And

11:44

to just ask for things to go

11:46

back is not the way to save

11:48

it. I think elites know that the

11:50

only way economically to improve the situation

11:53

of the middle class is to

11:55

move them on board into the knowledge economy. And there's great

11:57

shifts coming again. And it's going to be hard for them

11:59

to do that. hard, just like

12:01

the agricultural revolution was harder for

12:03

generations of farmers. If

12:06

we look at the industrial revolution, you

12:08

had a bunch of craftspeople who went

12:11

to factories and literally

12:13

destroyed them with hammers and left notes

12:15

from Ned Ludd. It's where we get

12:17

Luddites. It's a difficult

12:19

period, but just to wish the

12:21

pass back isn't going to help. We need

12:23

to move people into the elites. We need

12:25

to move people into colleges. We need to

12:27

find a way to make men enjoy going

12:30

to college and enjoy learning. Otherwise, it's just

12:32

going to get worse. Thank

12:35

you both for some terrific opening

12:37

statements and rebuttals. You're listening to

12:39

our debate today, be it resolve,

12:41

elites have betrayed America. I'm

12:43

going to join now with some questions kind of

12:45

top of mind for our listeners tuning in. Let's

12:47

just spend a moment with definitions

12:49

because I think in a debate like this, definitions are

12:52

important. So I want to hear from both of you,

12:55

your definition of an elite. What are we

12:57

talking about here? Who is this?

13:00

How do you characterize an

13:02

elite in 21st century

13:05

America or the West today? Batia, why don't

13:07

you start? Well, so

13:09

they open my opening remarks. You

13:11

can define it sort of three ways. You can define

13:13

it economically. You can define it culturally or you

13:16

can define it in terms of credentials. The

13:19

thing is, is that the economic

13:21

component now maps onto the cultural

13:23

question and the expertise question. So

13:25

if you get a college degree

13:28

today, you are much more

13:30

likely to enter into to achieve the American

13:32

dream. You're much more likely to be a

13:34

homeowner. You will on average make one million

13:36

dollars more over the course of your career

13:38

than somebody who doesn't have a college degree. You

13:40

live longer. Your health outcomes are better and

13:43

and that sort of piece of things

13:45

where the top 20 percent controls over

13:47

50 percent of the GDP and getting

13:50

into that top 20 percent involves getting

13:52

a credential or multiple credentials. That

13:54

To me is how you define the elites and the working

13:56

class would be people who work in jobs who are sort

13:58

of the non-elites, you know. The working jobs that

14:01

don't require skills he would pick up in

14:03

college and who are locked out of that

14:05

top twenty percent. I will just point out

14:07

that so you know the obvious question would

14:09

be, you know why isn't all right that

14:11

we should just be sending everybody to College

14:14

of Arts College is correlated with all these

14:16

wonderful outcomes. Shouldn't we just send everybody to

14:18

college? And the answer to that is twofold.

14:20

The first piece of it is. Fifty.

14:23

Percent of people with a college degree

14:25

are quote what's called under employed, Which

14:27

means they're working in jobs that don't

14:29

require the skills that they picked up

14:31

in college. Although infuriatingly, they still make

14:33

more than working class people in the

14:35

same jobs. This is just a statistic

14:38

that the Wall Street Journal reported on

14:40

a few months ago that's been born

14:42

out again and again. Get used to

14:44

be forty percent now fifty percent. and

14:46

those were over producing already college degrees.

14:48

In terms of what our economy can

14:50

sustain, we have a massive, massive. Shortage

14:53

of skilled trades folks. Because President

14:55

Obama be funded, it's a vocational

14:57

training. We actually will always need

14:59

people to be plumbers, electricians and

15:01

truck drivers and certified nurses, aides

15:03

and worked in working class jobs

15:05

whereas we pretty much hit or

15:08

limit of Accountants and Gender Studies

15:10

podcast or that cetera et cetera,

15:12

all these things that come out

15:14

of you know, colleges and so

15:16

what what? By saying what's his

15:18

final everybody into college our economy

15:20

can't sustain that. and plus. A

15:23

lot of people aren't suited for that. they don't

15:25

want that and we are so lucky. But.

15:27

They want to be janitors rather than wanting

15:29

to be gender studies podcasts. You know how

15:31

lucky we are that there are people who

15:34

get dignity out of cleaning the diapers of

15:36

the elderly? You know who's going to do

15:38

those jobs over the left? The Liberals. They

15:40

will just import people to do those jobs

15:43

within. What? What are those seventy percent of

15:45

this country were working class supposed to do

15:47

know? The answer is is that we should

15:49

restore dignity to the working class and stop

15:52

saying you need credentials Inward would see the

15:54

most basic, modest version of the American dream.

15:58

So. jewels more question for you do

16:00

Except Batia's kind of

16:02

multifaceted, multi-layered definitions of

16:04

elites, do you see

16:07

also her point that to

16:09

define elite is to define

16:11

a convergence. So it's a

16:13

convergence of economic privilege, of

16:15

educational privilege, of material

16:18

privilege, one through credentialization.

16:20

Is that how you see elites also or

16:22

do you have a different view? I

16:26

think there are two different kinds of elites that

16:28

we're shoving together here. First, I want

16:30

to object to the idea that there's people

16:32

who are really eager to clean the diapers

16:34

of the elderly. I'm going

16:37

to question the truth of that. And

16:39

I'm also wondering, it was kind of timely on

16:41

my watch to see how long it would take

16:43

for you to mention plumbers and electricians. Because

16:46

every time you have this debate with someone, they

16:48

talk about plumbers and electricians. Those are

16:51

well-paid jobs that you don't necessarily have

16:53

to have a college degree for. There

16:55

are not that many plumbers. We are not going

16:57

to have a nation of plumbers. We can't shut

16:59

down factory jobs and assume everyone's going

17:02

to be a plumber. That's not what happens. People

17:05

mention plumbers because the

17:07

populace love masculinity. And it's

17:10

a masculine job and it's a well-paid job

17:12

and it's a job that's expertise. If you

17:14

don't go to college, you don't become a

17:16

plumber. We don't need 100 million plumbers. What

17:19

you become is either a service

17:21

worker at a restaurant or

17:23

someone who works in the healthcare industry, i.e.

17:27

working in someone's house who's elderly

17:29

and rich, taking care

17:31

of their diapers. You become a servant. And

17:34

that's really the options left in the society.

17:37

And when you move further and further into a

17:39

knowledge economy, those are the

17:41

choices. And we do not... You can talk

17:43

about how great these kind of ancient

17:46

masculine jobs are, but they're just not going

17:48

to be around. And to tell people that,

17:50

I think is doing them a horrible disservice.

17:53

As far as the types of elites, I

17:55

talk in my book about the boat elite versus

17:58

the intellectual elite. have

18:00

right now is this fight between two

18:02

different kinds of elites. One

18:04

is the kind that lives in an honor culture,

18:07

believes in masculinity in an old-fashioned

18:10

way, believes in power and

18:13

money. And the other half

18:15

is the kind that's your listener. It's

18:18

the kind of person who would rather give

18:20

a TED Talk than own a yacht.

18:23

And I think that's the kind that really

18:25

threatens people. Is the, was it

18:27

the gender podcaster? This

18:30

is the kind of person who is

18:32

considered not of the people,

18:34

not American enough. And the

18:36

elite are always contrasted with the true

18:39

people who know in their gut what's

18:41

right. And the elites,

18:43

honestly, they're vilified as

18:46

either feminists or gay. And

18:48

really, I think this is the heart of it, Jews. It's

18:52

these kind of urban elite that everyone is threatened

18:54

by. And this desire

18:56

to get to a true national

18:58

American populace that's somewhere in the middle

19:00

of the country and knows right

19:02

and wrong in their gut is a very,

19:05

very dangerous idea. Hi, Monk

19:07

listeners. I

19:10

wanted to tell you about our

19:12

upcoming Monk debate on anti-Zionism. On

19:15

June 17th, author and journalist Douglas

19:17

Murray and UK-based international law expert

19:19

Natasha Hochstorf will debate former MSNBC

19:22

commentator and columnist Mity Hassan and

19:24

Israeli journalist Gideon Levy on stage

19:27

in Toronto in front of a

19:29

live audience of 3,000 people.

19:33

The debate will be streamed, so if you

19:35

can't make it in person, you can watch

19:37

it from the comfort of your living room.

19:40

Find out how to become a Monk

19:42

member and get more live stream access

19:44

to the Monk debate on anti-Zionism. This

19:47

is our website

19:49

right now, www.munkdebates.com.

19:54

Listening to our debate today be it

19:56

resolved, elites have betrayed America. Batch,

19:58

I want to come to you. Time. For.

20:01

The process conversation along the line

20:03

that we're currently on which trying

20:05

to define who elites are. A

20:08

Lot of this debate. Does it

20:10

not seem cultural as Shaw said,

20:12

it's it's about perceived grievances. It's

20:14

about one group feeling left out.

20:17

another group. Feeling. That

20:19

side they want to defend. Their.

20:21

Privileges and their their powers.

20:24

In. If if we accept that, if

20:26

we accept that it's this is a

20:28

cultural debate as much or more than

20:31

it might be an economic or political

20:33

debate. Doesn't That suggests that you know

20:35

elites are here. Sustain that. This is

20:37

a timeless debates. This is a debate

20:39

we could have had. Fifty years. Three

20:41

hundred years. A. Thousand years

20:43

ago, we're counting Angels on the head

20:46

of appear. So. Let

20:48

me just get it straight: the

20:50

Elites and plunder for the middle

20:52

class now control fifty percent of

20:54

the Gdp. Okay, and from that

20:57

Parker said extreme economic privilege. They

20:59

look at the losers who can

21:01

no longer afford a home who

21:03

don't have four hundred dollars to

21:05

rub together and say, oh, This

21:08

is a cultural grievance. All

21:10

this is racism. Break:

21:13

This is purely economic and I just

21:15

spent the year traveling the country interviewing

21:17

working class people for my book Second

21:20

Class and what I found was remarkable.

21:22

Consensus between are working class people who

21:24

are democrats and who are conservative vote

21:26

for republicans. Other mostly, they don't look

21:29

for Republicans anymore. They vote for Donald

21:31

Trump. They have huge economic problems, The

21:33

American Dream. It's totally out of reach

21:36

for them. By What right does the

21:38

top twenty percent sneer at these people

21:40

and say this is a cultural. Issue

21:43

I need stat went out the window with

21:45

Thomas Frank spots. How could anybody still believe

21:47

that looking at people can't afford groceries? What

21:49

spots! And by the way, the people in

21:51

my book are of all races of all

21:54

religious backgrounds in many, many industries. and I'm

21:56

sorry it's all you should read the book

21:58

because you'll meet people who take a lot

22:00

of finity and being a janitor and a

22:02

lot of dignity. And yes, working in nursing

22:05

homes and taking care of the elderly. I

22:07

guess that the elites think that that job

22:09

is beneath contempt. But lucky for us, there's

22:11

a lot of people who get a lot

22:13

of dignity from doing that, and we should

22:16

respect them instead of sneering at them and

22:18

under cutting their wages by importing millions and

22:20

millions of people from spell socialist states to

22:22

compete with them and drive down the wages.

22:25

They que vous you're super building on his

22:28

show. And. You can

22:30

sense the anger that the Bass

22:32

You has around this debate an

22:34

issue and we know that that

22:37

is shared amongst are broad section

22:39

of public's in the western world

22:41

isn't the issue Joel that it's

22:43

become gross that that the economic

22:46

inequality, the divisions, the the hoarding

22:48

by elites of these you know.

22:50

Scare social goods like highly

22:53

credential ized education that elite

22:55

institutions were the infirmary with

22:58

one another. usually in the

23:00

same county or postal code.

23:02

it's all just become too

23:05

much. This is

23:07

new. This is different now. We

23:09

are the type of a lead

23:12

in the concentration as the elites,

23:14

economically politically culturally has reached a

23:16

level of toxicity that is now

23:19

eliciting this backlash. I.

23:21

Really do want us to be careful in completing these

23:23

two types. of all the. The kind of

23:25

a lead. The. Cultural leads to do

23:28

control. The. Media and went to

23:30

the certain colleges. Are these what used to be

23:32

The Media. And Verizon, but a

23:34

government. That. Is an intellectual.

23:36

We'd the the money. Is. Controlled

23:38

by as a different elite that overlaps a

23:40

little bit but not completely and I think

23:43

we should keep these two ideas separate. Agri

23:46

be wealth inequality has

23:49

become gross, although. Historically.

23:52

Near the Eighty Twenty prayed a rule is

23:54

in effect. There was a period of time

23:57

after Robert to were in certain western democracies.

23:59

It was not sure the this is generally

24:01

true. If. It's most probably

24:03

going to be solved. In.

24:05

North easily solved through

24:07

taxation and redistribution which.

24:10

The. Average populace does not want because they all

24:12

think they're about to become millionaires. But.

24:14

That's true. It was seen as

24:16

biggest if you remove Silicon Valley

24:18

and Seattle where the Elites control

24:20

a lot of the world from.

24:23

This, This is not a hugely

24:25

successful country. A. Lot of lot

24:27

of the wealth has been generated by a very

24:29

small number of people on those two places in the

24:31

elite. So. You

24:34

know, I think there's a lot of dignity

24:36

the can be Hadn't all kinds of jobs

24:38

specially for helping people working there? I just

24:40

want people have much choice as possible. In

24:43

what they choose to do for let me And that

24:45

means at this point in time. Getting.

24:47

An education and going to college. So

24:50

Vasquez, We. Start. To bring

24:53

this debate homeless to spend a

24:55

little time. Talking about solutions

24:57

because sometimes proving an assertion in

24:59

this case only to a train

25:02

America as the American people. Might.

25:05

Be more convincing, if so, If.

25:07

There was a solution to,

25:09

you know, a problem. The

25:11

Joel just outlined their that.

25:14

Elites are the product of underlying structures.

25:16

They're in your society. In America, they

25:18

are products of your global dominance in

25:21

tax and the suits you know concentration

25:23

of of wealth creation in a few

25:25

select he knows zip codes in Palo

25:27

Alto and one or two other places

25:30

in the country. You know this is

25:32

happening. It's real. We all get that,

25:34

but. What? Do you see as

25:36

any kind of fair solution? Something

25:39

that could lead to greater? I'm

25:41

a quality. Is that what years

25:43

you're you're seeking between Americans without.

25:46

With the be no acknowledging the structural features of

25:48

the of this moment in the challenge that. You.

25:50

Know economies face today and.

25:53

The. potential cost aus uprooting america's

25:55

elites why would that mean what

25:58

are the and celery effect of

26:00

that? How would that impact less

26:03

fortunate Americans? The

26:05

solutions are so simple that it is

26:07

embarrassing that we are even fighting over

26:09

them. I mean, control

26:12

the border and drastically reduce the number

26:14

of immigrants, legal and illegal, will immediately

26:16

have an impact on working class wages

26:18

as we saw in the very recent

26:21

past. Vocational training,

26:23

get it back into high schools so that

26:25

people have more choices and aren't told you're

26:27

a loser if you don't go to college

26:29

and there are pathways to the American dream

26:31

that don't involve that degree. Get rid of

26:33

degree requirements for jobs that don't require skills

26:36

you pick up in college, which is many, and

26:39

make it illegal to use software that keeps people

26:41

out of those jobs because they don't have a

26:43

degree. Trade is hugely

26:45

important to working class Americans. Tradeware

26:48

with China is incredibly important. Tariffs

26:50

is incredibly important. Working class people

26:52

will tell you, tariffs on steel

26:54

and aluminum, I mean, that puts

26:56

money in their pockets. All of

26:58

these things were choices that were

27:01

made by leftist elites to put

27:03

money in their pockets. It was

27:05

an upward transfer of wealth. And

27:07

with five or six totally nonpartisan

27:09

policy things, we could help the

27:11

working class so much get rid

27:13

of zoning laws that protect the property

27:16

values of those couples you mentioned, rich

27:18

liberal doctors married to each other who

27:20

make it illegal to build a duplex

27:22

in their neighborhood. You could immediately build

27:24

a million units in one year and

27:26

solve our housing crisis in a decade.

27:29

Build a duplex so your cleaning lady

27:31

can live walking distance from you. Why

27:33

should that be unthinkable? It is unthinkable

27:35

to the leftist elites who control these

27:38

local boards. These are such simple,

27:41

obvious things. You wouldn't have to

27:43

uproot anybody. The thing that working

27:45

class people don't want, liberal and conservative,

27:47

who I interviewed is taxes. They don't

27:49

want handouts from the government. They don't

27:51

want to live off the government. They

27:53

don't want food stamps. They don't want

27:55

affordable housing. They want the dignity that

27:57

comes from being well paid for hard

27:59

work. And it is very easy

28:01

to turn that around. It's simple supply and

28:03

demand. You limit the supply of workers, you

28:06

get more wages. It's like the most obvious

28:08

thing, although the ex the entire economics expert

28:10

class will tell you that this is not

28:12

true. It is obviously true. Joel,

28:17

do you see these solutions as as

28:19

feasible? I mean isn't at

28:21

the end of the day this really about fairness

28:24

and I think you would concede that profit

28:27

as it has been accumulated is

28:29

shared more often with shareholders than

28:31

with workers. Isn't it just a

28:33

question of rebalancing? um

28:35

some of our assumptions about how

28:37

our society works, how our economy functions. We

28:39

could do a lot here to I

28:42

don't know what's the word de-elitize American

28:45

society, do it quickly, do it

28:47

relatively painfully, and have a

28:49

more equal just and fair society as a

28:51

result. I've heard

28:54

populace called terrifying

28:57

simplifiers and whenever someone

28:59

tells you there's a simple solution, I

29:02

really really question that. The

29:05

idea that more vocational training is going to

29:07

somehow create a a

29:09

hundred million jobs for plumbers is

29:11

just not true. It's

29:14

just not where our society is going and

29:16

the idea that immigration is

29:18

taking jobs from people, which Batia tells

29:20

you every economist will tell you is

29:22

wrong, is clearly not true. The

29:25

reason our GDP has grown over the last couple years

29:27

is this is this enormous number

29:29

of immigrants who have come and they

29:31

don't take jobs, they create jobs, and

29:34

we have a shrinking population. So it's

29:36

it's just a populous job to blame

29:39

immigrants, to blame the

29:42

elite, and to wish a world

29:44

into existence that somehow maybe

29:46

existed in the past but didn't really.

29:49

I don't want to go back to the 70s. I

29:51

was alive in the 70s. The 70s

29:54

sucked. The idea that we should go

29:56

backwards seems so insane

29:58

to me. Batia You're the

30:01

opinion editor of Newsweek. How

30:03

many of the last like 20 something

30:07

columns that you've run were written by someone who

30:09

didn't go to college? We

30:11

run working class people every week. When's

30:14

the last, what percentage of people do

30:16

you run who didn't go to college?

30:19

We run two or three pieces by working class people

30:21

every week. Compared to how many of you

30:24

went to college? I

30:27

don't know the exact numbers because there's a lot of us in

30:29

the section. I

30:32

would say it's about a quarter of the people that

30:34

I personally run. It's not enough, but it's 25% more

30:37

than anybody else is doing it. I'm very proud of it and

30:39

very glad that you asked me that so I could tell people.

30:42

Yeah, no, that is impressive because I'm assuming

30:44

they are hard to find. They're

30:47

all around us. But

30:50

they're not in, yeah, they're around us, but they're-

30:53

But they have been silenced. I agree with you.

30:55

They have been cut out of American public discourse.

30:57

I totally agree with you. Yeah,

31:00

of course they're in other places.

31:02

They're on YouTube. I mean, the

31:04

media has grown to include a lot more people,

31:06

I think. Yeah, because they're

31:09

fewer experts. I'm totally with

31:11

you on the idea that

31:13

zoning has been a problem and that should

31:15

be fixed. But the

31:18

idea that the people who didn't go

31:20

to college should be in our

31:22

increasingly complicated times to

31:25

be elected to the

31:27

Senate or Congress seems really dubious to me.

31:29

If you look at the people who didn't

31:31

go to college, which seems

31:33

to be what we're talking about, who are in Congress,

31:37

you get Lauren Boebert, you get, well,

31:40

he's not there anymore, Madison Cawthorn, you

31:42

get Matthew Rosendale. These aren't people who

31:44

are solving our society's problems. Bachelors,

31:47

you wanna respond to that? It's a

31:50

kind of argument. While

31:53

standing goes back to Plato, the

31:55

philosopher king, people are

31:58

equipped through education to. to

32:00

assume leadership. I

32:02

feel very blessed because Joel is making

32:04

my argument for me, like the contempt

32:06

of the working class in a democracy

32:08

that suggests that they literally are not

32:10

qualified to do what a

32:13

democracy promises us can happen,

32:15

which is a person by being elected.

32:18

What makes them qualified is

32:20

the fact that they were

32:22

chosen by Americans to lead.

32:24

And the expert classes I

32:26

opened with, they have delivered

32:28

so many face plants, just

32:30

disastrous, disastrous policy. NAFTA

32:33

was created by a bunch

32:35

of eggheads with multiple degrees

32:37

and devastated the working class.

32:39

There was no reason to do that.

32:42

There was no reason to ship 5

32:44

million good manufacturing jobs overseas. It's not

32:46

like the horse and buggy. Those cars

32:48

are still being made. They're just

32:50

being made by Chinese middle class people

32:52

now instead of by American middle

32:54

class people. That's what happens when

32:57

you have rule by elite. You

32:59

want an oligarchy of the credentials.

33:01

That is not a democracy. And

33:03

it is fueled by contempt for people who

33:05

work with their hands for a living of

33:07

all races and of all occupations and of

33:10

all genders. You've been

33:12

to car factories. They're robots now. These

33:14

jobs are not returning. And

33:17

we have to deal with that. We have an

33:19

opioid epidemic because we're not dealing with that. We

33:21

have a problem with men because we're not dealing

33:23

with these structural problems. And

33:26

they're not just going to be fixed by

33:28

giving people vocational training for jobs that don't

33:30

exist. Let's

33:32

go to closing statements. I'm conscious

33:34

of our time. So Joel, you've

33:36

been arguing against our motion. This

33:38

debate, be it resolve elite that

33:41

betrayed America. What are the

33:43

couple key arguments or points that you

33:46

want to leave our audience with as they

33:48

reflect on this excellent debate? Well,

33:50

like a true elite, I'm going to

33:52

bring up an old text, which is

33:54

this 1901 treatise that

33:56

called the rise and fall of elites, Which

33:59

was the first time this where it only being used

34:01

in the weren't the way that we're using it. Ah,

34:04

Is Italian economist of Alfredo parade

34:06

out. But. For this theory

34:08

that there's a circulation of it's. When.

34:10

Which argues that revolutions never occur when

34:13

conditions are so far about that the

34:15

masses like take to the streets with

34:17

their guitars and paper mishap puppets. They

34:19

occur when one group of elites

34:21

season opportunity to take power from

34:24

another. The. The phrase used

34:26

was history is a graveyard of

34:28

Elites. So. This this myth

34:30

that the common people, the working class, are

34:32

going to take over and run everything. Never

34:35

ever happens, There's always going to be

34:37

a group of Elites running things and

34:39

you better choose the right one. So.

34:43

Great. A Call them Speculators Who are

34:45

these innovative cooperatives? sneaky people who were

34:47

like everyone I know. And

34:49

they rentiers who are tough

34:51

moyal, hardworking, tribal and traditional.

34:54

I call them the boat elite and

34:56

the intellectually. And the boat of

34:58

the are steeped in on our culture. There

35:01

like real housewives who throw their

35:03

faces at the end of an

35:05

insult. And he quite well he would

35:07

never do that because our or wind is too good.

35:10

And the boat a lead tend to

35:12

win every dispute. That. They

35:14

need to win every dispute that that

35:16

everything either win or a loss because

35:18

they don't understand that humans when by

35:20

cooperating. Whereas. Be intellectually,

35:23

money isn't really are motivating factor.

35:25

And I'll close with this. this quote

35:28

from Thomas Man who dealt with the

35:30

same issue when he traveled across America

35:32

and Nineteen Thirty Eight after fleeing Nazi

35:34

Germany. And he gave a speech called

35:37

the Coming Victory of Democracy. In

35:39

which he talked about how attacking the elite.

35:42

Is just a path to tyranny. And

35:45

He said. There. Exists a modern

35:47

anti intellectualism which is the contempt

35:49

of pure reason. The denial

35:51

and violation of troops in favor of

35:54

power and interests of the state. The.

35:56

Appeal to the lower and things to

35:58

the so called feeling. The. Release

36:00

of stupidity and evil from the

36:02

discipline or reason. Intelligence. The. Emancipation

36:05

of Black Art isn't. In

36:07

short, a barbaric mob movement.

36:09

Besides. Which was what we

36:11

call democracy. Certainly. Stands out

36:14

as aristocratic to the highest degree. So.

36:17

Good. Luck with a lotta so it's. Thank.

36:20

You Joe sign for next and closing

36:22

statement. Okay Basher, As per debate tradition,

36:25

you been arguing in favor of emotion.

36:27

Be a resolve. Elites have betrayed America

36:29

so we're going to give you the

36:31

last word. And

36:33

I knew that second class. how the

36:36

elites a trade Americans, working men and

36:38

women. I spent the are traveling the

36:40

country and interviewing working class Americans across

36:43

the spectrum of all races, political persuasions,

36:45

backgrounds, religions and regions. and I found

36:47

a deep, deep sense of betrayal. Whether

36:49

people were democrats or Republicans, they felt

36:52

that they had been left behind, abandoned

36:54

to fend for themselves in an economy

36:56

that no longer saw their hard work

36:58

as worthy of respect and the most

37:01

basic tenets of a middle class life.

37:03

The. Kinds of things that the elites

37:05

take for granted. And whether they were

37:08

democrats or republicans, they knew who was

37:10

to blame. politicians, the media, the so

37:12

called experts, the people who sneer at

37:14

them, exploit them and smear that was

37:17

selling out their futures. These people were

37:19

remarkably. I'm bitter there was still deeply

37:21

patriotic, but they knew that something had

37:24

gone wrong since their parents' generation when

37:26

people could achieve the American dream as

37:28

a janitor or a barber or trucker,

37:31

or a nurse's aid whether they were

37:33

white. black hispanic or jewish they knew

37:35

that things had been better for people

37:37

like them a generation ago and a

37:39

new that things would be even worse

37:41

for their children who's to blame the

37:43

people behind the offshoring of manufacturing and

37:45

the importing of millions and millions of

37:47

migrants the people behind free trade deals

37:50

and the ballooning administrative costs of healthcare

37:52

and education the people who defended vocational

37:54

training to give two hundred billion dollars

37:56

to institutions that meant gender studies majors

37:58

and then pay off their student loans

38:00

so they can become podcasters. None

38:03

of this was by accident. Someone

38:05

did these things. Someone

38:08

betrayed the people in my book, Second

38:10

Class. You can call them whatever you

38:12

want, but we know who it is. Be

38:15

it resolved, the elites have betrayed the

38:17

American people. Thank

38:19

you, Bacha Ungar Sargan. That was a

38:22

terrific closing statement too. You've given us

38:24

both so much to think about and

38:26

you've done it all with civility and

38:28

substance. We won't say that's either an

38:30

elite or a working class virtue, but

38:32

it's one that we really appreciate here

38:34

at the Month Debate community. So thank

38:37

you again both for coming

38:39

on the program today. Thank you so

38:41

much. Thank you. That

38:46

wraps up today's debate. I wanna thank our

38:48

participants, Bacha and Joel, for a terrific one-on-one

38:51

debate. They certainly gave us a lot to

38:53

think about. You have questions

38:55

or feedback on what you've just

38:58

heard, please send us an email

39:00

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