0:01

You don't help the poor by making

0:04

everybody poorer. The

0:06

media has a frame and the frame is

0:08

Israel is the oppressor and the Palestinians are

0:11

the oppressed. I shouldn't be forced to

0:13

acknowledge my privilege unless I desire for

0:15

that to be part of my interaction

0:17

with somebody else. What I know to

0:19

be true and what all of my

0:21

fellow Gen Z know to be true

0:24

is that this is the most talented

0:26

generation yet. With respect to every indicia

0:28

of disadvantage, there is still a racial

0:31

hierarchy. And though I am of course

0:33

an Anglo, it's certainly not a f***ing

0:35

sex interview. Welcome to

0:37

the month debates. Every episode we provide you

0:39

with a civil and substantive debate on the

0:41

big issue of the day. Our goal is

0:43

to arm you, the listener, with enough information

0:46

to make up your own mind. Today's

0:49

debate, be it resolved, campus protesters

0:51

are on the right side of

0:53

history. We can't stop, we can't

0:55

stop, we can't stop. For

1:04

the protesters and their supporters, the

1:06

pro-Palestinian campus demonstrations across the globe

1:08

are part of a proud tradition

1:11

of student activism that includes the

1:13

anti-Vietnam war protests in the 1960s.

1:16

Peace now, peace now.

1:19

Peace now. And

1:22

the calls to end South African apartheid

1:24

in the 1980s. That's

1:27

your apartheid, go, go, go. And

1:30

just as those past protests are now widely accepted

1:32

to have been on the right side of history,

1:35

today's campus protesters are confident that

1:37

history will prove that their

1:39

cause is just. Here's

1:42

Lila Saliba, a student protestor at

1:44

Columbia University in New York. People

1:47

in Gaza, they are starving, they have lost

1:50

everything, their homes and

1:52

their apartments have been bombed. So really, we

1:54

feel like we have a moral obligation to

1:56

continue doing what is right and speaking up

1:58

for the Palestinian people. Critics

2:01

disagree. They say protesters have

2:03

often downplayed or made excuses

2:05

for Hamas's murderous attacks of

2:07

October 7th, and that

2:10

demonstrators failed to consider the complexity

2:12

of the conflict one that cannot

2:14

be simplified into binary terms, and

2:17

that some protesters have indulged in

2:19

violent and hateful rhetoric towards Israelis

2:22

and Jews. Here's

2:24

Eleanor Reich, a Jewish and Israeli

2:26

student at Columbia. When you

2:29

see Israelis on campus being

2:31

called Nazis for speaking Hebrew, when

2:34

you hear chants calling to remove

2:36

Zionists, when you hear chants calling,

2:39

we don't want no two states,

2:41

we want all of it. You

2:43

just think what comes next after

2:45

that rhetoric. And from Jewish history,

2:49

we know what comes next. On

2:52

this installment of the Monk Debates podcast,

2:54

we challenge the essence of these arguments

2:56

by debating the motion be it resolved.

2:58

Campus protesters are on the right side

3:00

of history. Arguing

3:03

in favor of the motion is

3:05

Ben Burgess. He's a columnist with

3:07

Jacobin, an adjunct philosophy professor at

3:10

Rutgers University. Arguing

3:12

against the motion is James Kirchick. He's

3:15

the New York Times bestselling author of

3:17

Secret City, The Hidden History of Gay

3:19

Washington. He's also a columnist for

3:21

Tablet Magazine and a writer at

3:23

large for Air Mail. Ben,

3:26

James, welcome to the Monk Debates.

3:29

Hello. Hello. Let's

3:32

dig right in here. It's an important topical debate.

3:35

We're going to get it underway

3:37

with our opening statements. Ben,

3:39

you're speaking first in favor of our

3:41

motion be it resolved. Campus

3:43

protesters on the right side of

3:45

history. Let's have

3:47

your opening remarks, please. Yeah,

3:50

thank you. In the last seven months,

3:53

in just Gaza, a tiny territory with

3:55

a population of 2.3 million people, Israel

3:58

has managed to kill far

4:00

more civilians than the United States killed in 2003

4:03

in Iraq during the shock

4:06

and awe bombing invasion that was condemned by most

4:08

of the world at the time. Far

4:11

more civilians than Vladimir Putin is killed over

4:13

the course of two and a half years

4:16

of almost two and a half years

4:18

of waging a really brutal and disgusting

4:20

war in Ukraine. And

4:22

when I make those comparisons, those are

4:25

absolute numbers, not relative to population. So

4:27

even though Gaza only has 2.3

4:30

million people, Iraq had well over 26 million,

4:33

Ukraine had well over 43 million,

4:35

there have still been far more

4:37

killed in Israel. These are really

4:39

the kinds of atrocities that people are going

4:41

to be reading about in history books for

4:43

centuries. 1.9 million of those 2.3 million

4:45

people have been

4:49

forced at gunpoint to leave their homes by

4:52

the Israeli army. There's

4:54

been a campaign of

4:56

destruction to try to eliminate the possibility

4:58

for normal Palestinian life, resuming as usual,

5:01

after the war, so complete and so

5:04

thorough that just to give one example,

5:07

not even the worst one, but I

5:09

think a particularly striking one given that

5:11

we're talking about University of Protests, the

5:13

last remaining university in Gaza was destroyed

5:15

not even by aerial bombardment but by

5:17

controlled demolition. And so

5:20

under those circumstances when I see university

5:22

students who are willing to

5:25

risk their academic careers, in some cases

5:27

risk mob violence like what was directed

5:29

against them at UCLA or even Charlottesville

5:33

style lone wolf violence like what was

5:35

directed against one of the protesters recently

5:37

at Columbia. I have

5:39

nothing but admiration for these students and I

5:41

think the question is not are they on

5:43

the right side of history but what will

5:45

history make of those who stood aside and

5:48

said nothing while this was happening? Thank

5:50

you Ben for that opening statement. Okay

5:53

Jamie your opportunity now to weigh in

5:55

our debate today you're arguing against the

5:57

motion be it resolved campus protesters are

5:59

on the right right side of history.

6:01

Let's have your opening remarks. Sure.

6:03

The right side of history, of course,

6:06

is a subjective term. It depends on

6:08

what one thinks about a particular issue,

6:10

and it's usually applied in

6:12

retrospect towards movements, social

6:15

movements around which a generally

6:17

positive consensus is formed. So if we

6:19

look at the 20th century, we say

6:21

that the women's suffragists in the early

6:23

20th century, they were on

6:25

the right side of history. African American civil rights

6:28

movement was on the right side of history. The

6:30

gay rights movement, the anti-apartheid movement, these

6:32

were causes that were all considered radical at

6:34

their time, and they were radical at

6:36

their time, but which now in 2024,

6:38

we look back on, and there's

6:41

a large consensus that these were all justified

6:44

movements. Now, my conception of

6:46

what constitutes the right side of history with

6:48

regard to what's going on in

6:51

the Middle East right now may be

6:53

different from Ben's. I'm not sure what his

6:55

understanding or conception of the right side

6:57

of history is. My conception is

6:59

two states, Israel and Palestine,

7:01

living side by side in

7:03

peace. The main obstacle to

7:05

that vision, I believe,

7:08

is Hamas and its paymasters,

7:11

mainly Iran. The reason for that is because they

7:13

do not believe in a two-state solution. They want

7:15

to destroy the state of Israel, and they're

7:18

very open about that. Now,

7:20

if these movements that we're seeing on

7:22

campuses across the country, if they merely

7:24

sought the end of this war, they

7:26

might have a plausible argument to being on

7:29

the right side of history. I would argue otherwise,

7:31

because I believe personally that the only way there's

7:33

going to be a long-term peaceful solution in

7:36

this region is if Hamas is

7:38

eliminated, and so the war must

7:40

continue until that goal is achieved.

7:42

But if these were genuinely anti-war

7:44

protests, I would respect them, even

7:46

though I disagree. That's not what

7:48

these protesters want. They're very open

7:50

about what they want. These protests are

7:52

an outgrowth of the protests that happened

7:55

on October 8th, before any

7:57

Israeli response to the massacre. massacre,

8:00

the horror of October 7th,

8:02

which need I remind you all listening,

8:04

was the most horrific largest massacre

8:07

of Jews since the Holocaust.

8:09

There were protests in American

8:11

streets and at university campuses

8:13

endorsing that massacre and calling for

8:15

more. At these protests

8:18

we've been seeing over the past couple of

8:20

weeks in university campuses, there have been no

8:22

calls to release the hostages, the Israeli hostages

8:24

who are still being held captive. We

8:26

have chants and slogans that

8:28

explicitly endorse the violence, destruction

8:30

of the Jewish state, calls

8:33

for intifada, resistance is justified by

8:36

any means necessary. And the proof

8:38

of this, ironically and sort

8:40

of tragically and sadly and humorously,

8:43

is that these protests have

8:45

been applauded and endorsed by

8:47

Hamas, by the Houthis,

8:49

and by the Iranian regime. The

8:51

latter two parties, I might add,

8:53

have offered scholarships to the

8:55

American students who have been suspended for

8:57

their violations of university policies and

8:59

the actual law. They've involved breaking

9:02

into buildings in Colombia, as we

9:04

saw. And there's actually a lawsuit

9:06

now being filed in federal court

9:08

alleging that the major organizations sponsoring

9:11

these protests have been collaborating with

9:13

Hamas, which is of course a

9:16

designated terrorist organization by

9:18

the US government. Now because these

9:20

student protests are openly calling for

9:23

violence against civilians, they are better

9:25

characterized as pro-war protests.

9:28

And because of that, I say that

9:31

they will be looked upon in the future as

9:33

being absolutely on the wrong side of history. Thank

9:37

you for that opening statement, Jamie. Okay, Ben,

9:39

your opportunity to react now. Another

9:41

two minutes on the show clock. Give

9:43

us your early thoughts on this debate. So

9:46

Jamie said that these

9:49

are pro-war rallies, and

9:51

that was based on cherry picking some of

9:54

the most militant slogans. But of

9:57

course, as he well knows, the main overwhelming demand

9:59

of the protests. has been for a ceasefire.

10:02

This is what the people of protesters have

10:05

said again and again and again and again.

10:07

They have never released any kind of statement

10:09

about what they want that does not talk

10:12

about a ceasefire. That's just the reality.

10:14

There's no denying that. Now you

10:17

can say that being anti-war

10:19

makes you on the wrong side

10:22

of history, but I think there's no seriously denying

10:24

that the the students are

10:26

anti-war, that their goal is to stop the war

10:29

to get a ceasefire. Which by the way, if

10:31

you care about the hostages, is the thing that

10:33

you would want because that is the only way

10:36

that all of the remaining hostages are

10:38

going to get back safely. Jamie also

10:40

raised an issue about long-term

10:43

solutions. He said many protesters

10:45

want the destruction of

10:47

Israel, but you know the

10:50

real answer is a two-state

10:53

solution. And I think that

10:55

what many of more radical things that protesters

10:57

say point to is that Israel has been

10:59

a single state from the river to the

11:01

sea for the last 57 years. It's

11:04

just not a state with equal rights for everybody.

11:06

It's a state where what kind

11:08

of rights people have varies

11:11

dramatically on the basis of ethnicity and

11:13

religion. If my dad, for example, lost

11:15

his mind tomorrow and decided to

11:18

exercise his right under the law of return,

11:20

become an Israeli citizen, move to the West

11:22

Bank where about five to ten percent of

11:24

Israeli Jewish citizens live, then

11:26

he would have all the rights of a

11:29

citizen, Palestinian neighbors in the same territory would

11:31

have none. He'd be able to vote in

11:33

Israeli elections. He would be able to, if

11:35

he was accused of a crime, he'd be

11:38

tried in real civilian courts. Palestinians in the

11:40

same territory lack all of these rights. And so

11:43

I think it's fairly natural after 57 years

11:45

of that to demand equal rights for everybody within

11:47

the existing state. But let's say this is the

11:49

last point I want to make about this because

11:51

this is incredibly important. Let's say for

11:53

the sake of argument that I'm dead wrong about that. That

11:57

there's nothing reasonable about that wish.

12:00

for a state with

12:02

democratic rights for everybody, between the river

12:04

and the sea, but rather the solution

12:06

has to be take the form of

12:08

a two-state partition of the territory. Well,

12:11

it seems to me that if you really believe

12:13

that, you should be grabbing a

12:15

placard and a bullhorn and joining the protest

12:17

because there is no possible path from where

12:19

we are right now, where the current Israeli

12:21

government says that it could not be clear

12:23

about this, that that will never happen, that

12:26

there will never be a Palestinian state. They have

12:28

said this over and over and over again. There's

12:30

no path from where we are to Israel

12:33

allowing such a partition that doesn't go

12:35

through exactly the kinds of things that

12:38

the protestors are demanded in terms

12:40

of a withdraw of US

12:42

military aid and US diplomatic cover

12:45

to Israel to do whatever it

12:47

wants, which unfortunately

12:49

has been the policy for

12:51

so long that even

12:53

the very mild reservation,

12:55

about 2,000 pound bombs being used to

12:57

bomb the

12:59

last refuge for Palestinian civilians in Raffa

13:02

was received as an earthquake, as a major

13:04

change of course. And so if

13:07

you really do want a two-state solution,

13:09

it seems to me that you

13:11

should still be very happy that there are

13:14

people who are out there demanding the kinds

13:16

of things that might start to nudge us

13:18

in a direction where Israel would actually agree

13:20

to such a solution. Jamie,

13:23

let's get to you now on the

13:26

microphone with either a rebuttal

13:28

of the opening

13:30

statement that we've heard from Ben or

13:33

what you've just heard now.

13:36

Sure. Well, the casualty figures, these

13:38

sites, I dispute. I don't think we're gonna

13:40

know the total casualties until long after the

13:42

conflict is over. The casualty

13:45

figures are all coming from Hamas

13:47

sources, which as we know, do

13:49

not distinguish between civilians

13:52

and militants, to the extent that

13:54

we do have some idea of the ratio

13:57

between civilians and militants being killed.

14:00

according to john spencer who's a

14:02

military expert at west point he

14:04

says it's roughly one-to-one which if

14:06

that's true is a

14:08

remarkably low ratio that that

14:10

would uh... be better than any western military

14:13

intervention in recent history but let's get to

14:15

the reason why so many

14:17

palestinian civilians have tragically died and

14:19

i'm not disputing that it's because

14:21

hamas started this war and

14:23

not only did they started on it

14:26

over seven they place their fighters they

14:28

place their armaments in civilian locations which

14:30

is a war crime putting

14:33

their bases in hospitals in schools

14:35

in mass because they want to

14:37

ensure maximum uh...

14:40

civilian casualties just so that people like

14:42

ben in america can

14:44

say that is israel is committing

14:47

a genocide i'm so it's

14:49

a very cynical and i would say

14:51

evil strategy that i'm also employing and

14:53

they are the ones who are primarily

14:56

responsible for any civilian casualties in gaza

14:58

of course is israel uh...

15:00

mistakenly killing civilians yes absolutely we

15:02

saw that with the food aid

15:05

workers which was tragic any

15:07

military makes mistakes and they were in a

15:09

actually be individual soldiers who will have to

15:11

be reprimanded uh... but the

15:13

notion that this is some sort

15:15

of organized ethnic cleansing or even more

15:18

obscenely a genocide uh... this

15:20

is this is not a serious argument you

15:22

know i have to cherry picking what the

15:24

protesters are saying and i do want to

15:27

keep this debate here more about the protest

15:29

that the resolution were debating rather than the

15:31

decades long history in the

15:33

rightness or wrongness of the israeli palestinian

15:35

conflict you know i would say

15:37

that if the cause was just that

15:39

they're advocating for why are so

15:42

many students covering their faces this

15:45

is an intimidation tactic and you never saw

15:47

this with the movements that i discussed in

15:49

my opening statement the suffragists in the nineteen

15:51

ten they didn't cover their faces african

15:54

americans never covered their faces the first gay

15:56

rights demonstration in the united states is outside

15:58

the white house 1965

16:01

and those people in 1965 when homosexuality

16:04

was illegal in almost every state in

16:06

this country and you could be fired

16:08

from your job, they courageously did not

16:10

cover their faces. Who covers,

16:12

who else covers their faces? The Ku Klux Klan.

16:15

They wear hoods. Why are these students covering

16:17

their faces? I think it says

16:19

something about their movements, about their ideology and also

16:22

simply the fact that they're also cowards. And

16:24

related to that is that when you, when

16:26

you commit an act of civil disobedience, you

16:29

go along with the punishment. That's what African

16:31

American civil rights protesters did. They endured horrible

16:34

treatment from police, fire hoses,

16:36

dogs, beatings, jail terms. What

16:39

are these students doing? They're demanding,

16:41

they violently break

16:44

into a building at Columbia

16:46

University, intimidating and beating up

16:49

janitors, working class people. I know you've

16:51

been, you care about the working class.

16:53

You have these privileged elite students at

16:55

Columbia harassing janitorial staff and then what

16:57

do they do? They demand

16:59

humanitarian aid. That vegan food be sent

17:01

to them. Fuzz likening

17:04

their plights as Columbia students to

17:06

the plight of people in Gaza.

17:08

It's ridiculous. So I

17:10

just think that to compare this movement to

17:12

the other social movements in the past that

17:14

we, that most of us can all agree,

17:16

we're righteous. I think it does

17:18

a real disservice to those historical movements.

17:22

Thank you for that reaction, Jamie. And

17:25

let's come back to you and have

17:27

you weigh in on what you've just

17:29

heard. Talk a little bit about, for

17:31

instance, Jamie's case here that mask wearing

17:33

is not actually in the kind

17:35

of tradition of the best of

17:38

civil disobedience and protests in

17:40

America and that this lends credence to

17:43

Jamie's contention that campus protesters are

17:45

not on the right side of

17:47

history. Well, I find

17:50

that argument very odd because for one thing, it

17:53

definitionally doesn't apply to most

17:55

protesters because most protesters have

17:57

not covered their faces. We

18:00

have, I mean, this is just straightforwardly true.

18:04

The majority of protesters have not covered their

18:06

faces. Can you cite

18:08

something to back up that claim? Okay.

18:12

I have certainly not seen. They

18:14

have any reason whatsoever to think that

18:16

the majority of protesters have covered their

18:18

faces and certainly anecdotally, the vast majority

18:20

of the ones I've seen have. So

18:23

if you have some sort of data,

18:25

then I'm happy to listen to it.

18:28

But otherwise, I think it's

18:30

very strange to focus on this argument

18:32

that from what I've seen and

18:34

anybody listening to this can judge for

18:37

themselves all the pictures they've seen. I

18:39

just got back from visiting the encampment

18:41

of Princeton last week, not

18:43

a mask in sight. Most

18:45

of the pictures that I've seen, not a mask in

18:47

sight, but perhaps so. I would

18:49

also point out though that

18:51

if your range of historical

18:53

examples of people who have

18:56

covered their faces is only

18:58

limited to the KKK, then

19:00

you, for example, didn't see a lot

19:02

of pictures from the Maidan protests

19:04

in Ukraine where tons of people

19:07

had their faces covered from various

19:09

protests in the Arab Spring where

19:11

tons of people had their faces

19:13

covered. But I also

19:15

think that this is a very odd way

19:17

of trying to sort out the question of

19:20

who's on the right side of history

19:22

that is primarily through

19:25

a question of face

19:27

covering rather than a question of

19:30

the cause. The

19:32

reason to think that these protesters are on

19:35

the right side of history is

19:37

that they are protesting

19:40

really extreme atrocities and human

19:43

rights violations that we just

19:45

heard waved away

19:47

based on not much. They got

19:49

an estimate that one

19:52

out of two of the

19:54

victims of this

19:56

remarkably indiscriminate bombing campaign, there

19:58

was just... interview in the New

20:01

Yorker from somebody from the international agency

20:03

dealing with mines saying that there are

20:06

more unexploded rockets than bombs now

20:08

in Gaza than anywhere

20:10

else since World War

20:12

II. That you know this is

20:14

usually when people you know usually

20:17

the low-ball estimate is that

20:19

two-thirds of the victims

20:22

are civilians and that

20:24

itself is based on simply

20:26

assuming that any adult male

20:28

is therefore Hamas just sort of counting

20:31

you know anybody who's not a woman or a child

20:33

as a civilian and anybody anybody

20:36

who is one of those things this is civilian

20:38

never anybody who's not as not a civilian but

20:41

I think that there's very little to take that

20:43

seriously and last point about this because I really

20:45

do want to keep this you know

20:47

I think that the if you're gonna be serious about

20:49

asking whether they're on the right side of history the

20:52

really important question is are they protesting

20:54

something that should be protested against and

20:57

to answer that question I think that

21:00

the scale of the atrocities in Gaza

21:02

is extremely relevant and the idea that

21:04

oh these are Hamas figures is just

21:06

wrong that the Ministry of Health figures

21:10

have proven right after previous rounds

21:13

of conflict in in Gaza and

21:15

if anything right now there's every

21:17

reason to suspect that's a very

21:20

dramatic underestimate given that the Ministry

21:22

of Health infrastructure has been so

21:24

thoroughly destroyed by the scale of

21:26

bombing that has killed so

21:28

many doctors has destroyed so many hospitals

21:31

throughout Gaza and made

21:33

it very very difficult to keep

21:35

a running count thank you Ben

21:37

I'm just gonna center us back around our resolution

21:40

just want to try to as much as we

21:42

can keep on the topic today

21:44

which is campus protesters are on

21:46

the right side of history

21:48

and Jamie to come to you

21:51

can you give some examples maybe of where

21:53

protesters were on the wrong side of history

21:55

I mean does Ben have

21:58

a point that if if history Is

22:00

it at all predictive of the future? And

22:02

look, we could debate that, but that's another

22:04

resolution for another day. Are

22:07

there examples where protesters

22:10

have really gotten things wrong

22:13

that could suggest that that's

22:16

happening again? Well, it

22:18

depends on what you believe and what your causes are.

22:20

I mean, let's not forget that the Nazis

22:22

had a lot of support among students at

22:24

German universities. There were a lot of learnings

22:26

that began in the 1930s. They were

22:28

happening at universities. On the

22:31

left in the 1960s, there were many students who

22:33

were Maoists, believe it or not. They

22:35

weren't just opposed to the

22:38

Vietnam War. They were actively Maoists. You

22:41

know, a parallel actually with

22:43

the protests on university campuses,

22:46

with American history. I think it was at

22:48

UCLA. There was a non-Zionist

22:50

zone that was created and students

22:52

were actively asking other students, are

22:55

you a Zionist or not? You cannot

22:57

enter a public space, a public campus

23:00

area, or they were preventing Zionists. And

23:02

let's be clear what they mean by

23:04

that. They mean Jews. They were preventing

23:06

them from entering academic buildings, which to

23:08

me sounds like George Wallace standing

23:11

in the schoolhouse door, trying

23:14

to prevent the integration of

23:16

public universities in Alabama. So

23:18

yeah, I mean, protesters are not always

23:20

right. And I think that there's this

23:22

belief that because

23:25

they were often right in the past, that

23:27

therefore any sort of ostensibly

23:29

progressive or left of center protest,

23:32

we have to get on board with it because it'll

23:34

be right in the future. But I actually think that this

23:36

protest, I think it's wrong to even label it left

23:39

wing because what many of these students are

23:42

actually supporting, whether they know it or not, and

23:44

I think a lot of them are just ignorant.

23:46

I'm going to be charitable and say that they're

23:48

ignorant, but they've actually allied themselves with a far

23:50

right fascist, theocratic

23:53

movement, which is the Iranian axis of

23:55

resistance in the Middle East. These

23:58

are in Iran and Gaza. countries

24:00

where women have to be veiled,

24:02

where there's obviously no one's voting

24:04

for a democratic government. The

24:07

strangest and most, you know, to me, perplexing

24:10

development has been, you know, queers for

24:12

Palestine where we all know or we

24:14

should know what happens to

24:16

LGBTQ people in all these territories, which

24:18

is that they are hum

24:21

from construction cranes or stone to death. So

24:24

yeah, no, these students, I'm

24:27

going to be charitable and I'm going to say that

24:29

most of them are ignorant of what they're actually cheering

24:32

on. So Ben,

24:35

I mean, how do you

24:37

separate for a listener who's not part

24:39

of these protests and maybe not as

24:41

kind of tuned into their thinking and

24:43

worldview? Is it

24:46

possible to separate? I

24:48

think we would all agree legitimate protests

24:50

at any time, anywhere against

24:53

war as a way

24:55

and failed way to solve

24:57

for human differences versus

25:01

the fact that this war has a belligerent,

25:05

most notably Hamas, who

25:07

have deeply illiberal principles,

25:12

ideas, and beliefs.

25:15

Does that matter to you, Ben, that for

25:18

many people watching these protests, these things

25:20

have become conflated in the public's mind's

25:22

eye? Well, I

25:25

think it's been conflated because people like Jamie have

25:27

worked very hard to conflate them. The

25:29

actual cause, which is opposing

25:31

the atrocities in Gaza that

25:34

are on an entirely different scale than anything

25:37

we've ever seen anywhere around the world in

25:39

recent years, that again,

25:42

I think those contrasts with Iraq,

25:44

Ukraine, etc., are really telling

25:47

with these entirely

25:49

spurious charges of anti-Semitism

25:52

that we just heard, that

25:55

people allegedly have been asked

25:59

if there's Zionists. I

26:01

guess we'll see if that turns out

26:03

an investigation to be true, but

26:06

I would point out that anybody

26:08

with even a passing knowledge of

26:10

the Palestine Solidarity Movement in person

26:12

and firsthand will

26:14

tell you a very obvious thing

26:16

and something that's very unsurprising to anybody with

26:19

the slightest knowledge of the American left is

26:21

that a massively disproportionate number of

26:23

the protesters are themselves Jewish. There

26:26

are people who try to dismiss this as tokenism, but

26:28

I think that's just not living the real world. The

26:30

Jewish peace movement is a huge driving force behind

26:33

what's happened. While the

26:35

illiberalism of Hamas is certainly true, I

26:37

do struggle to see the

26:39

relevance because Israel itself

26:41

makes no claim whatsoever that

26:44

they're fighting, that they're killing these tens of thousands

26:47

of civilians in order to

26:49

impose social liberalism on

26:51

the survivors. You can

26:53

search in vain the pronouncements

26:56

of Netanyahu, Ben Gevir, et cetera for any

26:58

kind of claim that that's a war goal.

27:01

Given that it's not a war goal, I

27:03

don't see the relevance, and I think that

27:05

it's very often true that wars

27:09

that there are very good reasons to

27:11

oppose have targets

27:13

that are bad or

27:16

illiberal in one way or another. Jamie

27:18

mentioned the protests against the war in

27:21

Vietnam. I hope we all

27:23

agree that the war in

27:25

Vietnam was very bad and it should

27:27

have been protested even though the North

27:29

Vietnamese regime was authoritarian in many ways.

27:33

I think that now in 2024, nearly

27:36

everybody who supported the Iraq War, with

27:38

very few exceptions here and there, wishes

27:41

they could delete that part of their political history and

27:44

very much regrets taking that position. But

27:47

Saddam Hussein was certainly an

27:49

authoritarian dictator. I

27:51

would simply suggest that that's not

27:54

the most relevant question when

27:56

you're asking, is it okay for

27:58

the United States to be a part of the war? States

28:00

to back a war

28:02

that has involved millions of people

28:05

being forced to gunpoint to leave

28:07

their homes and tens of thousands

28:09

of civilians being slaughtered at a

28:11

far greater scale than other

28:13

conflicts in the recent past. And

28:16

I think that the illiberalism of the

28:18

official enemy is just not relevant to

28:20

that question. Hi,

28:24

Monk listeners. I wanted to tell

28:27

you about our upcoming Monk debate

28:29

on anti-Zionism. On June 17th, author

28:31

and journalist Douglas Murray and UK-based

28:34

international law expert Natasha Hochstorf will

28:36

debate former MSNBC commentator and columnist

28:38

Mehdi Hassan and Israeli journalist Gideon

28:41

Levy on stage in Toronto in

28:43

front of a live audience of

28:45

3,000 people. The

28:48

debate will be streamed, so if you can't

28:50

make it in person, you can watch it

28:52

from the comfort of your living room. Find

28:55

out how to become a Monk member

28:57

and get your live stream access to

29:00

the Monk debate on anti-Zionism. This is

29:03

our website right now,

29:06

www.munkdebates.com. As

29:10

we move towards the conclusion of this debate,

29:12

Jimmy, I want to give you an opportunity

29:14

to talk a little bit about how

29:17

these protests are unfolding,

29:19

the extent to which some

29:21

members of university campuses, primarily

29:23

Jewish students and Jewish faculty,

29:26

have indicated that they feel

29:29

threatened or that they've been the subject

29:31

of intimidation as

29:33

a result of these protests. I

29:36

want to get Ben to weigh on this also, but set

29:39

the case for us as to why you

29:41

think this feature of

29:43

the protests, which you believe is widespread,

29:48

undermines their legitimacy and would suggest that they're

29:50

not on the right side of history. Well,

29:53

I should be clear that I'm a free

29:55

speech absolutist, and I've actually argued in the

29:57

New York Times that the

30:00

expression from the river to the sea should be

30:02

allowed on campus. They should not be punished for

30:04

saying that. While I consider it a call for

30:06

ethnic cleansing, other people don't

30:09

see it that way. And I don't want university

30:11

administrators becoming like literary

30:13

commissars and deciding whether or not

30:15

certain expressions are acceptable.

30:17

But I can see why Jewish students

30:21

would view that as being a

30:23

threatening statement. And

30:25

if it's being used in a threatening

30:28

way, directly at an individual, right, if

30:30

there's harassment, those are types of activity

30:32

that are not protected by the First

30:35

Amendment and that people should be

30:37

punished for it. But I think that that's actually been quite

30:39

rare. And I don't,

30:42

you know, I don't to the extent that

30:44

students should be expelled or suspended, it should

30:46

be for violating university regulations, breaking

30:48

into an academic building, preventing freedom

30:50

of movement, preventing other people from

30:52

studying and going about their day. Those

30:55

are the sorts of things that should result

30:57

in punishment. Ben, I

30:59

want to come to you on the point, you know,

31:02

there if we look back, I don't know

31:04

what civil rights protests or

31:06

protests of the Vietnam War era.

31:08

Yes, there was lots

31:10

of hot rhetoric, lots

31:13

of anger and frustration being

31:17

expressed. But I think maybe some people would

31:19

say what's different today is there's an element

31:21

to these protests. And let's hear

31:23

your counter argument who are at

31:26

times targeting a certain cultural

31:28

and religious group. Is

31:30

that new? Do you accept that contention? Let's hear

31:33

you on that point. Yeah, I

31:35

absolutely do not accept that contention.

31:37

Again, I think that

31:39

there is a massive proportion.

31:41

And, you know, like the question about mass

31:43

earlier, I can't claim to have seen any

31:46

polling on this earlier, although nobody who seems

31:48

to suggest otherwise seems to bring up any

31:51

polling either. But it seems to

31:53

me anecdotally that there is a massive proportion

31:56

of these students who are

31:58

themselves Jewish. And

32:00

that certainly consistent with my

32:02

lifetime experience of being around

32:04

Palestine solidarity activism that

32:06

of course, you know, that Jewish

32:09

students are more likely

32:11

to have spent more time thinking about this issue

32:13

than students who are raised, you know, Hindus or

32:16

Mormons or Episcopalians, although, of course, all those are

32:18

going to be represented. But, you

32:21

know, it makes sense to me that, you know, that the

32:23

Jewish peace activists are going to be rather

32:26

dramatically overrepresented at

32:28

the protests. And, you know,

32:30

I mean, if you say, I think

32:32

given the scale of the protest, the

32:34

absolutely unprecedented scale, it would

32:36

be a minor statistical miracle if you

32:38

couldn't find any instance of somebody saying

32:41

something genuinely anti-Semitic and sort

32:43

of certainly condemn it, you know, if and when it

32:45

happens. But I'd also

32:47

say that, you know, if you're really talking

32:49

about, you know, violence and intimidation, you know,

32:51

we've heard all sorts of spurious claims. The

32:54

Yale students who claim to have

32:57

been stabbed in the eye was then refuted

32:59

by her own video, for

33:01

example. But, you

33:03

know, if you actually want to

33:06

talk about violence directed at Jewish

33:08

students, then overwhelmingly, these

33:10

Jewish students most likely to be

33:12

victims of violence the last couple

33:14

of weeks are protesters

33:17

that, you know, if you look

33:19

at certainly the scale and ferocity

33:23

of the crackdown, which is

33:25

really unprecedented. I mean,

33:28

if you, you know, we've heard these comparisons

33:30

thrown around in this conversation, the Vietnam era protests. So

33:33

that's a nice one-to-one comparison

33:35

to look at that when Vietnam

33:38

War protesters broke in, if you consider

33:40

that violence and occupied Hamilton Hall in

33:43

1968, the university waited a

33:45

week before calling in the cops

33:47

to clear them out. They

33:50

broke in 1985 when Hamilton was occupied by

33:53

anti-apartheid protesters. Then they

33:55

actually left after three weeks without a single

33:57

arrest. They knew that the judge's order was over.

34:00

going to come down soon and so they

34:02

left in anticipation of this. In this

34:04

case, it was within less than a day and I

34:06

do see really considerable irony in the fact that so

34:08

much this has been justified by the

34:10

principle of the badness of the disruption

34:13

of ordinary campus life, by the principle

34:15

that it's really important that everybody have

34:17

access to all areas of campus but

34:19

of course the effect of the crackdowns

34:21

has been to violate those principles much

34:23

more dramatically than the protests themselves ever

34:25

could. I mean look at Columbia where

34:27

students and faculty have been entirely locked

34:29

out of the campus as

34:32

part of the crackdowns on

34:35

the protests and last point on this, I think that

34:37

one thing that you just have to reckon with, if

34:39

you're going to be serious about this, is

34:42

that American Jews are really

34:44

increasingly divided on this. That even in

34:46

2021, one out of three young American

34:49

Jews told pollsters

34:51

that they considered Israel to be an apartheid

34:53

state. Common sense would suggest that the number

34:55

right now is probably a lot higher, given

34:58

what's happened since 2021. And of

35:00

course, I would never say that

35:03

somebody is right because of their

35:05

background. Arguments have to be evaluated

35:07

on their merits. I

35:09

dislike identity politics in

35:11

any form but I

35:13

would just say that if

35:16

you're going to talk about the feelings of

35:18

Jewish students and faculty, I think the beginning

35:20

of an honest discussion has to be that

35:22

Jewish students and faculty are deeply divided on

35:24

these issues. Thank

35:27

you, Ben. Well, let's move to closing statements.

35:29

We've done this perfectly so we can land

35:31

the debate with James going first with his

35:33

closing statement and then Ben as per debate

35:35

tradition will leave you with

35:37

the final word on our resolution today,

35:39

be it resolved campus protesters are on

35:41

the right side of history. So

35:44

James, kick us off with the closing statements. What

35:46

are the two minutes or so

35:48

of remarks that you want to leave our audience

35:50

with? Well, something that

35:52

Ben and I probably agree

35:54

on is that Donald

35:57

Trump would not be a

35:59

good president to have. have this November.

36:02

I'm assuming that we agree that we

36:04

don't want to see him reelected. What

36:06

I fear is going to happen in

36:08

large part because of these protests is

36:11

that they will help reelect Donald Trump.

36:13

Much in the same way, by the way,

36:16

that the anti-Vietnam War protests in 1968

36:19

at the Chicago Convention helped ensure

36:21

not just the election of Richard Nixon,

36:23

but 40 years of

36:25

near interrupted right of center

36:28

government. When people

36:30

see these images, and

36:32

Ben and I are sort of

36:35

disputing with anecdotes what

36:37

we see at these protests,

36:40

I, for instance, do not see many Jewish students.

36:43

And I also hear a lot of

36:46

genocidal slogans. I hear only one solution,

36:48

Intifada revolution, which is not only calling

36:50

for Intifada, it's also using that word

36:53

solution, which I can't help but feel

36:55

is a not so subtle reminder

36:58

of the final solution. I hear

37:01

say it loud, say

37:03

it clear, we don't want no Zionists here,

37:06

or there is no safe space death to the

37:08

Zionist state that was heard at Columbia.

37:11

And Ben and I can disagree on whether

37:13

or not these, characterize the movement

37:16

as a whole. But these images of

37:19

chaos and anarchy, and

37:21

Ben was downplaying what's

37:24

been happening on the campuses, he kind

37:27

of, sort of waves off the

37:30

occupation, the breaking into an

37:32

violent occupation of

37:34

a campus building at

37:36

Columbia, that should be met with punishment.

37:39

Unless you want to live in an anarchist society where

37:41

there's no rule of law, we do, you

37:44

know, the law doesn't need to be

37:46

enforced. And usually, protesters who are

37:48

on the right side of history, they

37:50

break the law in the firm

37:52

conviction that what they're doing will

37:55

be seen as justified in time.

37:57

And I don't think that's going to

37:59

happen. happen, at least I hope not. I hope we

38:02

don't live in a society in this country. We're 30

38:04

years from now. These protesters get

38:06

what they want, which is

38:08

the elimination of Israel. And

38:11

so I would just say for

38:13

those reasons that people

38:15

should vote against this resolution. Thank

38:19

you, Jamie, for that closing statement. You're listening

38:21

to our debate today being resolved. Campus protesters

38:23

are on the right side of history. Ben,

38:26

you've been arguing in favor of the motion.

38:28

We're going to give you the last word

38:30

in today's debate. Thank

38:32

you for hosting, Jamie, for participating. I would

38:34

just point out that there are a lot

38:38

of side issues and related issues

38:40

that have come up. Would it

38:42

be bad if Trump won? My

38:45

view is yes, but also if a

38:47

significant portion of voters in

38:50

places that Biden needs to win, like Michigan,

38:53

can't look past the

38:55

increasingly tower and mountain of Palestinian

38:57

corpses to reelect him, that's

38:59

Joe Biden's fault. It's the job of

39:02

politicians to appeal to voters. So

39:05

there have been a lot of issues like that.

39:07

There have been a lot of issues about particular

39:09

incidents. But one

39:12

thing that I haven't

39:14

heard Jamie deny explicitly

39:16

is that one,

39:18

there have been a

39:21

giant number of civilian deaths, that there

39:24

have been tens of thousands of civilian

39:26

deaths, that there have been millions of

39:28

people forced at gunpoint to leave their

39:30

homes in Gaza, and that

39:32

the protesters want these things

39:35

to stop happening. I haven't heard the

39:37

denial of that. And I think

39:39

given those facts, I think even if you

39:41

think that there are individual protesters who said

39:43

and done things that they shouldn't have, I

39:45

think as a group are the protesters on

39:48

the right side of history, those

39:50

things are definitive. And

39:53

sure, here's something you haven't heard

39:56

me deny throughout the entire discussion.

39:58

You haven't heard me deny that. protesters

40:01

have said or

40:03

done things that I disapprove of that

40:05

you know I find you know sort

40:07

of performatively radical and counterproductive etc. If

40:11

the resolution were be it resolved every

40:13

single protester is doing everything right or

40:15

be it resolved no leftists ever do

40:17

anything that are stupid or counterproductive I

40:20

would definitely be on the other side of

40:22

it but they that's not the resolution the

40:24

resolution is be it resolved the protesters are

40:27

on the right side of history and when

40:29

we see millions of people ethnically cleanse for

40:31

their homes when we see a scale

40:33

of civilian death that is without

40:36

precedent in in comparable

40:38

recent conflicts and when we see

40:40

this protesters calling for the US

40:42

to stop arming and backing that

40:45

it seems overwhelmingly clear to me that they are

40:47

on the right side of history just

40:50

like I think even most

40:52

people who supported the war in Iraq and smeared

40:54

protesters in 2003 as pro-sadam now regret

40:57

that support I am extremely confident

41:00

that when we see the the

41:02

years to come we see the

41:04

scale of suffering that was inflicted on Gaza even

41:07

most people who so who made

41:10

excuses for these atrocities now smeared

41:13

the protesters as violence or

41:15

anti-seminates will wish they could take

41:17

it back but sadly history does not come with a

41:19

do-over button if you want to be on the right

41:21

side you have to be on the right side right

41:23

now and Burgess

41:25

thank you so much for that closing

41:28

statement and Jamie thank you for

41:30

your contributions to this debate you

41:32

guys have engaged on a really

41:35

hot topic with a ton of

41:37

civility and substance and we appreciate

41:39

that it's not easily done but

41:41

you've given our membership some new

41:43

ideas and principles

41:45

to think about and we're the better for it

41:47

so thank you so much both for coming on

41:50

the program today thank you thank

41:52

you thank you I

41:58

about rasp of today's debate to thank our

42:00

debaters, Ben and James. They certainly gave us a

42:02

lot to think about. If you have questions or

42:05

feedback on what you've just heard on this or

42:07

any of our podcasts, please send us an email

42:09

to podcast at monkdebates.com

42:12

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42:14

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42:16

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42:19

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42:21

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42:24

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42:26

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